Rules whiners

[FishmanLT]

There are way too many posts on here with people whining about changing the rules or pieces that are broken. Complaining about what some powers should or shouldn't do. Whimpering about some pieces being too powerful or being overused.

Well, cry me a river people. Its a game. Like Risk, or Axis & Allies, or Chess. And like those games, it needs rules to make it playable and fun. Rules that are fair and balanced. None of these games try to use the rules to imitate real like activity. That would require a rule book bigger than the bible. We would all spend an hour calculating out physics formulas and calculus equations just to resolve a single action.

Any changes that WK has made regarding the rules so far are usually a direct result of some sort of loophole in the wording of the rules. WK has reasons for why the rules are the way they are. There is a reason why Outwit works the way it does. There is a reason why Soaring characters block LOF to grounded figures. The reason is for simplicity and game balance.

You can't use common sense or real life scenarios to explain the rules of a tabletop game. And you shouldn't whine about pieces being too powerful or too weak just because it doesn't fit your idea of that character from a specific comic book.

Personally, I think that Heroclix is a great game. And while the rules may be down right weird in certain situations, I accept it cuz I know that the exact same rules apply for my opponents. (thats one of those aspects of fairness)

So stop complaining, stop whining, and stop trying to ruining the game by trying to change all the #### rules. You think the rules should be different? Go make your own Hero adventure collectible miniatures game with your own rules and see how well you do. Otherwise, sit down, shut up, and roll the dice.

Or I guess there is always checkers.

[SkrullAgent]

The rules for all the games you've mentioned have evolved from the original versions...

One major problem Heroclix rules have is they are not intuitive, which makes it hard for them to maintain a claim on simplicity. People have every right to question and challenge the rules. It's not "whining". It's because they care about the game, despite its obvious flaws, and want to fix it. And as far as complaining about pieces not fitting their comic book images, well they should complain. I think when a game has a largely recognized liscence the game has a responsibility to create an acurate representation and feel of whatever liscence it may have.

[irweasel]

I think the Queen in chess is a broken piece.

[darius_dax1]

The dials are not big enough to represent a character throughout their history. What would you do for Carol Danvers? or Hank Pym? They have changed throughout history from writer to writer. There will be duplicate clix soon enough, in fact there lready are duplicates--Elektra, Daredevil, Spider-man, Wolverine, Wasp, Captain America, Hulk. I'm sure we will see different representations of the same character as HC runs out of unadapted characters.

The rules are fine the way they are. I don't have a problem playing the game the way it is and neither does my clix group.
And Neither should you.

[Doomtoy]

Okay, I give up. How is Chess intuitive?

And Queens are borken! A piece that can cross the entire board in ONE MOVE? And can duplicate the movement pattern of ANY OTHER PIECE?!?

Forget it, man. Chess will never catch on until the errata comes out. I hold WizKids personally responsible...:laugh:

[irweasel]

Yeah, the Queens wild card team ability on movement makes her unstoppable.

[darius_dax1]

Yeah the Queen's a drag! Oh did I just make a funny?

Didn't think so.

[Miraclo]

I'm fine with playing the game as it is - I believe a great deal of thought went into the attempt to capture the characters' abilities and make them work within as simple a framework as they could muster.

That said, talk about whining -- It seems that every time someone dares to bring up for consideration some amendment of the rules or a different approach to a set of character stats, even if just to ask if others agree or disagree with them -- there's a small crew of people ready to roll in and declare Those Who Dare To Question as "whiners."

Why not save the label for the people who demand a change, or threaten to give it all up because something is ruining the game for them? They're the legitimate targets, not the people who find something odd and are just trying to find out if anyone else agrees.

===MJN

[NateTG]

I think the Queen in chess is a broken piece.


As an example of rules changes:
The Queen originally moved like the King, and was one of the weaker pieces.

[phonixinmi]

The queen isn't broken. It cannot mimic the movement of the knight.

[darius_dax1]

That would be fine if said people presented the query in a question format, but too many times I've seen people say, "x needs to be changed because..." or "my idea for x is..."

This implies a response be made about their 'complaint'.

Overall, this is a site for HC discussion. That includes my views as well. So if I want to label a whiner as a whiner, I will do so and tell them why.

[TychesCoin]

I have to echo an earlier post that games like chess and Axis and Allies have had rule changes. Obviously none of us were around for the evolution of chess, but Axis and Allies I've seen the evidence. Almost any computer game released these days goes through a long series of patches (some of them significantly altering the existence balance of the game).

I don't think the current rules are horribly off base, but I would not bet on heroclix keeping those rules for the duration of its existence. And if rules do change I'd much rather they evolve out of the players themselves than from only the game designers. A wider perspective isn't going to hurt. For instance things like "no dupes" could become de facto rules without ever entering the official rule book, if most venues decide thats how they're going to play.

[darius_dax1]

Rules like no dupes could be fine, especially in a tournament setting. But let's not change the game mechanics just because there are a few people who cannot adapt their teams and strategies to counter the efforts of people who figure out 9or use) killer combos. Everything has a weakness, find it and exploit it!

[FishmanLT]

I agree with Miraclo that the designers have done a good job of capturing the spirit of the different characters in both the Marvel and DC realms. Given that it would be impossible to represent any single characters entire comic book career on a single heroclix dial. Each piece represents a snapshot of that character at a given point in comic history. I'm sure that any suggestions about pieces that should be created will be looked at in detail by WK.

As far as calling people whiners because they express their views, I partially agree. I have no problems with people talking about home grown rules that they find fun. Those are similiar to using different scenarios, which can be very fun to play. I read someones post earlier about some limitations for Outwit in an 8 person 800 pt game that I thought were very justified. But there are also a lot of posts of people saying rules need to be changed because they aren't fair. To me, thats whining. (Much like what I'm doing right now)

I agree with SkrullAgent that the rules are not intuitive. When you add that to the open-ended descriptions in the rulebook it does cuz problems with understanding the rules. That however does not mean they aren't simple rules. To me, if I can play the entire game without consulting a manual, then its rules are simple.

I also care about the game. I think its a lot of fun to be able to take on the sinister syndicate with spidey and his allies. But I'd hate to see the game that, with the exception of a few openings, works very well end up having to make major changes. Then Heroclix ends up like Magic. There will be figures and maybe even whole editions that are banned from play because they were created under the old rules system and now the points are all incorrect.

Anyway, Its a great game. Leave it alone. 2 thumbs up Wizkids from those of us who already sleep with the fishes.

Oh, and I think the Queen should have Outwit. Then she'd be broken.

[TychesCoin]

First I don't understand how not allowing dupes is any different than most of the other rule changes. Using dupes of certain figures can provide some pretty nasty combos, why would those be ok to eliminate and not some of the others?

Secondly, yes everything has a weakness but I think the problem is some of those weaknesses require action in the team building phase of the game. First this isn't always bad, some team should match up better on certain maps or against certain game plans. The problem occurs when something dominates a game. (now you get to here me whine in your thread about whiners) Outwit can do that, toss outiwt on a 300 point team and its a useful ability. Use that team against a team with big investment in an invulnerable character and there's a chance(though not a certainty) the game degenerates into being about the outwit. It can influence every action. The ability and therefore the rules can completely alter the game play. For the most part I think the designers did a great job of avoiding this. Its usually a character that can dominate a game ("I got beat by wolverine and elektra", not BCF, "I lost to a Firelord team, or bullseye or cyclops" not RCE) Usually its about the powers and the stats, the complete character. In an outwit v invulnerability game, its very often an "I got beat by outwit". I don't think thats a good thing. (and now you got to hear me whine in a thread about whiners)

[darius_dax1]

So I should let you beat my Outwit Team (which is ridiculous becuase to base or center a team around any one power is a bad idea) with your Invulnerability Team?

Learn to cope!

[TychesCoin]

No, you probably didn't build an outwit team. you probably built a balanced team that happens to include outwit. Like wise my "invulnerability" probably only has one invulnerable character with a variety of support characters. Probably both balanced teams with a few weaknesses. Its just once the teams are on the field its very easy for the game to degenerate into an outwit v invulnerability match up. I know how to cope, I know I have to eliminate the outwit figure and keep my secondary figures filling the lines of sight. I just don't think the game should ever get reduced to playing around one power. I don't really see any othre power that has that potential. I don't feel that the outwit v invulnerable issue is on the same level as, for instance, stealth v range. If I know I'm facing a team with any outwit, I'm probably better off building a team without invulnerability.

Its very hard for outwit to be a useless power. If you toss it on a team it will probably be useful to some degree, thats not true of every ability. And outwit is far more useful against invulnerability than most other things.

Any case this is a specific example (not really even my favorite issue to whine about). I just think its unlikely the heroclix rules have reached their final forms and while alot of the whining may be off target, I think some of it has a good chance of reflect (a possibly inspiring) rule changes.

[darius_dax1]

Between the people that say outwit is borken and the people that say perplex is borken and the people that say Firelord is borken and the people that say Iceman isn't good enough or telekenesis needs to be able to be used once per turn based on your number of attacks or the people that say impervious is too weak or that impervious is too strong or people that complain about Spiral having the Doom team ability or Taskmaster having the Doom team ability or Nightcrawler is borken and shouldn't have hyper sonic speed or Iceman should not have flight or blades/claws/fangs is borken and ranged combat expert is borken and close combat expert is borken and the whole game of HERO CLIX is borken...

IT GETS A LITTLE TEDIOUS AND NITPICKY! SO ALL I AM SAYING IS LEAVE THE RULES ALONE AND LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. STOP TRYING TO MAKE A NEW GAME BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE RULES OR DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE STRATEGY OR DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO FIELD A WELL-BALANCED TEAM.

Would the Joker look up at the reader and start complaining about how Batman shouldn't be able to outwit his schemes and demand the writer change Batman's abilities (actually the Joker might do that but you get the point)?

The sad fact of the matter is that all you complainers have never been taught the lesson of losing gracefully. You would rather change the rules so you can't lose than just play with good sportsmanship.

Face Facts: You will not win every time you play a game. Sometimes your team will be outwitted and it will have nothing to do with a black color on anybody's combat dial.

[darius_dax1]

[i]I think some of it has a good chance of reflect (a possibly inspiring) rule changes. [/B]

There would be nothing inspirational about a rules change.

[megakilroy]

I think a lot of the tension in here revolves around the different reasons people play the game.
Some people are hardcore gamers who want to have the rules finalized, set in stone, and have everybody use them. If they go to a tournament and the rules aren't exactly the way they're used to playing, they will get upset.

There are some hardcore gaming collectors who want the rules changed as they think they should be so they can go around to all the tournaments and win the LE's. They will take their FL/medic teams and stop at nothing to get that LE figure.

Then there are some (I am in this group) who just play the game for fun with friends. If they think there is one particular rule they don't think is right, they use "house rules". They put together theme teams and have a lot of X-Men vs Brotherhood battles.

As I have yet to play in a tournament, I guess what I say should be taken with a grain of salt. But I am thinking of playing in one next month and hope I meet at least a few people who enjoy the game and the characters more than just out to demoralize all opponents and win the big LE prize.

[darius_dax1]

I have not yet played in a tournament.
I totally support house rules.
I totally suppport clarifications and errata.

I do not support rules changes.

I do play for fun.

[Rake]

Originally posted by FishmanLT
That would require a rule book bigger than the bible.

What if it was one of those little bibles that you get in a motel???

[darius_dax1]

Maybe the new rules BIBLE could be delivered by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Camelsmoker]

People will always complain at things they don't like or that are opposite of their tactics. Most of the people who have beef with outwit play with inv/imp. Why not use BP or FL? You would be a fool not to.

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by Doomtoy
Okay, I give up. How is Chess intuitive?

And Queens are borken! A piece that can cross the entire board in ONE MOVE? And can duplicate the movement pattern of ANY OTHER PIECE?!?

Forget it, man. Chess will never catch on until the errata comes out. I hold WizKids personally responsible...:laugh: Did you forget about the Knight?No piece can duplicate the movement of the Knight!

[darius_dax1]

The Knight, Chess' Veteran Hawkman.

[FishmanLT]

gladiator1518 has a good point. The Queen can't move like a Knight. That must mean that the Knight is borken too. And the Pawns, whats with the Pawns. Only moving forwards, one step unless its the first? who came up with that slappy rule? If they can't even fix chess, how do people ever expect Heroclix to be perfect.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by FishmanLT
And the Pawns, whats with the Pawns. Only moving forwards, one step unless its the first? who came up with that slappy rule?


Yeah, but Pawns can do that groovy "en passant" move. Try that, Queenie!



Originally posted by FishmanLT
If they can't even fix chess, how do people ever expect Heroclix to be perfect.


O.K., here's what we do:

Lock Deep Blue, JonL, Garry Kasparov & Thanoseid into a room & don't let 'em out until they've fixed BOTH games :knockedou

[darius_dax1]

I would like to fix HeroClix with paying off my opponents, you know, like in boxing.

[shin-goji]

I think that the 2 of spades is borken.

[darius_dax1]

The green wedges from Trivial Pursuit are borken.

[FishmanLT]

I think the Dog in Monopoly is borken.

[otter]

I think the world is borken. If we complain enough to WK do you think they could change a few things?

[darius_dax1]

I think my comic books are borken, they don't work exactly like heroclix. I think I will have to pettition the writers of comics to request this change.
Dear Marvel, DC, and others, I propose these changes:

Any fights must take place on maps with flattened buildings and cars.

All characters must remain attached to large discs with their names and all their personal information printed on them.

The only other 3-dimensional objects on the board besides the characters should be: a soda machine, a large woden crate, a dumpster with the lid stuck closed, a street lamp, a desk with stuck drawers, a mailbox, an old 1950s style computer, and a book shelf. All other objects will be printed on flat discs made out of cardboard.

Firelord MUST be on every team.

Constrictor and Hobgoblin will never be serious threats.

Teams that choose to fight will, before the fight begins, choose a point total to assign members to the fray. If there are a few left-over points after all major members are assigned the teams will recruit rookie thugs and henchmen.

Even though Juggernaut can wipe the floor with Black Panther, Black Panther will always play a vital role in his defeat.

I think that these changes will make comic seem more like heroclix.

[Funky Jett]

I think Frisbees are borken. I couldnt ever get mine to skip off the street (although I could do this really cool toss that made it rise as it sailed to my friends).

[T_Darksoul]

Pawns? PAWNS???? They are the MOST BORKEN pieces in Chess. If you get them to the other end of the board they can become ANY, I MEAN ANY piece EVEN a QUEEN!!!!

AND the WHOLE "en passant" THING.

Ban all pawns and give the knights the ability to carry other pieces.

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by T_Darksoul
Pawns? PAWNS???? They are the MOST BORKEN pieces in Chess. If you get them to the other end of the board they can become ANY, I MEAN ANY piece EVEN a QUEEN!!!!

AND the WHOLE "en passant" THING.

Ban all pawns and give the knights the ability to carry other pieces. Pawns can become any piece except the ALL IMPORTANT KING!!!

[T_Darksoul]

Say it isn't so. :surprised

Is this in the FAQ?

Now I know it is borken.:disappoin

I will just have to go break out my old pogs.:cry:

[darius_dax1]

Pawns have the Wildcard Team Ability. You know, like from UNO.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Camelsmoker
People will always complain at things they don't like or that are opposite of their tactics. Most of the people who have beef with outwit play with inv/imp. Why not use BP or FL? You would be a fool not to.

and that's the whole point we the so-called "whiners" are trying to make !

outwit is a great power and If you don't want to play with BP, I'm not getting any up front.

even in fun games (the only kind I play even in tournaments !), this is obvious.
................................
we are called whiners because we didn't say our opinions in a question ?
Wow, you will get a lot more dissapointment in your life I can tell you that !, Darius.
this forum/board is made for discussion so discuss instead of making a mockery out of it !

[darius_dax1]

Stop trying to make a mockery out of the rules. It seems that you would like to PUSH your version of the rules on the rest of us.
You walk down a dangerous path with all these rules changes you talk about.
Try playing within the system instead of trying to make the rules so you win all the time. If you don't learn to lose gracefully once in awhile it is you who will be disappointed.
If you are having fun then what difference does it make anyway? You shouldn't be amongst the complainers.

[AdamantiumClaw]

I think there is one big thing we all need to remember.....even one of the greatest set of rules of all time.....the Constituion of the United States.....was purposely constructed so that it could be changed and updated and altered. I know the guys at WizKids are good.....but even the founding fathers knew that the rules that they had made were not perfect and that they should be changed over time as actual people tried to function within those rules.

So therefore it is important that people voice their opinions about the rules. The more you play, the more you find people that either abuse the rules, or find loopholes in the rules, or twist the rules in a way they were not meant by the original writers or find rules that just don't work as they were intended. So voice your opinions and let the rule makers find ways to adjust the game to make it the most enjoyable experience for everyone.

I mean it is one thing if you are complaining because you just keep getting whooped by a person that makes the most of his team and it's special abilities, but it is a completely different thing if I have to make my team Thor and 10 con artists just to be competitive because that is how everyone else is taking advantage of the rules. :devious:

I want the game to be fun and balanced. And the more we play the more we find things that could be better or should be altered to keep the game that way. So voice your opinions and I am sure if things are really being abused, they will be changed.

And one other thing.....am I just not up on the lingo....but what the hell is "borken"? I know it can't be just that you all don't know how to spell BROKEN (with the R before the O) so it must be some cool new word that I don't know about.

Thanks for listening.......:cool:

[FishmanLT]

Many people on the realms refer to some HC pieces as being "Broken." These are pieces that they feel either do not accurately reflect their comic book personas, or pieces whose point cost does not adequately reflect the stats and powers on their dial.

The term "Borken" is an alternate adjective that can be used to describe the same pieces. The difference is that while Broken infers their is something wrong with the piece, Borken doe not. Borken simple means that you would have to be an idiot to not seem the value of using the given piece. Hence, Firelord is "Borken", not "Broken." Black Panther is "Borken", not "Broken."

In the words of Tsannik, "Does that make sense?"

[darius_dax1]

Borken, I believe, was originally a type-o that caught on. I like the afore mentioned definition of the word.

The Constitution can be changed, but it is such a hard process to gaurantee that is what the MAJORITY of the people want.

The thing about loopholes is that in games, everyone has the same ability to take advantage of it. In fact, every rule should be taken advantage of in any game as long as it doesn't cross the threshold of cheating.

[TychesCoin]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Borken, I believe, was originally a type-o that caught on. I like the afore mentioned definition of the word.

The Constitution can be changed, but it is such a hard process to gaurantee that is what the MAJORITY of the people want.

The thing about loopholes is that in games, everyone has the same ability to take advantage of it. In fact, every rule should be taken advantage of in any game as long as it doesn't cross the threshold of cheating.

I agree with everything you say, however just because the loopholes are available to everyone does not mean they shouldn't be closed. If a loophole impacts a game to the point that it stifles creative and innovative play then it should be fixed. I'm not convinced heroclix is at that point, but I think its very close. Can you win without taxis? yes, but its significantly more difficult than winning with them. Can you win without outwit? yeah, but if you were relying on invulnerability to a large degree it becomes more difficult.

I'll readily admit a skilled player can overcome any rule loophole and still win. However, new players are almost never skilled and the number of games it takes them to discover these loopholes or learn to play around them can be considerable. Especially if those first few packs they buy contain an awful lot of hobgoblins and such. There's only so many times a player will lose badly before the game stops being fun and they quit trying. I think thats bad for the game.

[Logan Myrddin]

OH MY GOD!!! WEASEL! You did NOT just claim that a piece out of a game centuries of years old, and refined over hundereds of years has a BROKEN piece! What kind of IDIOT are you? The QUEEN in chess is BROKEN? MY GOD!! Next it will be the grunts in CHECKERS! Get a GRIP people! Games are JUST THAT-- GAMES!
"The queen in chess is broken"! GEEZ!!

:p I'm JUST joking, Weasel! Don't get angry!

[Puuka]

Originally posted by T_Darksoul
Say it isn't so. :surprised

Is this in the FAQ?

Now I know it is borken.:disappoin

I will just have to go break out my old pogs.:cry:

Don't you know the slammers were considdered broken, thats why the game is no longer arround...:p

[thornnspear]

thought I'd chime in my $.04 (inflation)

I don't have a problem with people proposing new rules, or discussing possible rules changes. House rules comparisons are great!

What scares me is the possibility of FAQ updates based on recalibrating the game b/c of 1 piece!

For instance, the "taxis can only carry people of lesser point value", which our local judge really liked. After all, wasp shouldn't be able to carrry hulk.

But then our beloved Vulture becomes worthless! for 15 points, he can maybe carry a con artist or paramedic....but he can't even reach the 27pt support threshold! (IE R Black panther, R Harley, etc)

And you mean to tell me that Doombot couldn't carry a tiny wasp?

My whole collecting methodology would be screwed up by such a rules change...and for what? "Because of firelord...."

Rather than making a rules change, get a CC piece next to firelord, or perplex up your attack.... (You DO play balanced teams, right?) After all, Firelord is an excellent ranged piece, but CC can make things difficule. He can't used RCE on stealthed figures, he has to break away, and he can't be healed! I even had a game in a recent tournament where R invisible girl was beating firelord down!


I'm not talking about building an anti-firelord team or whatever, but build something that can counter most everything you face. A little outwit, a little perplex, ranged combat and CC, and mobility (taxi/TK). Most of your tournament teams should be like this....like a chess team. After all, you can't build a team of all Queens in chess.

[onew0rd]

I have something in common with all you anti-change guys. I love this game. The difference is that I think it could be much more. I personally want the rules changed/made more consistant/made clearer/made fairer because I like the premise of the game, it is fun, and it could be much funner. Unfortunately, there are some people who have a wack agenda and want rules changed for personal reasons. I am not one of those people. Most people like the game as is. Fine. They have the right to like it. I am not one of those people either. I have a right to not like the rules and post my feelings to that extent. Funny how those that think we are "whining" about the rules only respond (whine) with "don't play then" "you suck" or "learn how to win or deal with it". When have any of these been an issue. These are totally irrelevant to the matter at hand. When someone gives a rational reason on why a power/figure/whatever is misrepresented in cost/effect whathaveyou all they get in response are the same tired huffing and puffing. You don't want the game changed. Good for you. But I do. and there are lot's of us too. And although the game is as is now, we may see our agenda come to light. It may not. Either way, we both have the right to express our feelings about this game.

As far as chess goes. It has evolved into this state over literally 1000 years of tweaking and adding rules, etc. Queens are relatively new actually. En passant even newer. Things change (hopefully for the better). You can try and fight it all you want and blow all the hot air you got. But in the end something has to give.

Back to Heroclix: At the very least a new rules templating needs to be done. For the most part they are poorly written. Barrier takes a move action...OK. I'm Brother hood I get a free move action...OK. I barrier. Well actually, there's a clause that states... This type of thing is piss poor and very confusing and a common occurence throught the rules/PAC/Faq. It's OK if you guys like a convoluted and poorly written rulebook for your games or that you feel that the rulebook FAQ is just peachy. But I like my things a little better quality. It's OK if you're not comic fans and don't care that Spiderman IC doesn't have supersenses, but I like my clix to feel like their comic counterparts, it's OK if you don't mind that Plasticity is useless and that Firelord is broken. That's all OK. I don't mind that you feel that way and want all things untouched and unchanged and left immaculate for you so no one fudges with our game. In that same light, I feel all those things should be questioned, reassessed, and if necessary, remediated. Not everyone likes status quo. You're intentions are in line with mine. I want this game to prosper. But please convince me in a rational manner how change is not necessary.

[FishmanLT]

"BANG!
....
You were saying something about best intentions...
Oh, you were finished. Well, allow me to retort"


onew0rd, I agree that we have something in common. I think we all like the game and no one wants to see the game get ruined, either because of making rules changes, or the lack thereof. I also don't mind people talking about valid rules clarifications or changes and backing it up with specific game examples.

I'll even give you an example of something that seems quirky to me that might need a rules change. There are posts on here talking about stairs and elevated terrain. About how since the top square of stairs is elevated terrain, and the square of stairs next to it is not that you can't make a close combat action. To me, since the rules allow a piece to change elevations by moving from one square to the next, they should also be able to make close combat attacks. However, I can also understand why WK would not want to change this rule. It would be another clarification or stipulation in an already congested rulesbook/FAQ.

As for pieces not accurately representing their comic book personas, all i can say is sorry, but thats how it goes. Some characters have so many powers that it would be possible to give them everything they have. Otherwise you have characters with squares that are half one color and half another and point totals high enough to take on a whole veteran X-Men team by themselves.

And even though we have been comparing chess with Heroclix, there are some remarkable differences. Chess never requires a die roll to determine the outcome of any situation. We are just using chess as an example because it is widely known as a very strategic game. But, in keeping with chess, if its taken over a 1000 years to make it the game it is today, then we really shouldn't be expecting any Heroclix rules changes for another 25 years or so.

And lastly, rules templating. The rules for Heroclix look like they were written as part of a high school essay. I absolutely agree that they need to rewrite the entire rules to the game. Right now, if I have a rules question I have to read the rulebook, then read the FAQ, then check the message boards for rules clarifications. They should gather all this information together and write a new rulebook thats easy to understand with all the rules in it.

Who knows. Maybe they are planning on doing this already. Maybe they are just waiting cuz they know that there are still a lot of rules clarifications that need to be made.

Either way, thanks for the post. I appreciate the lack of whineyness in your defense of the whiners.

[onew0rd]

You had me until your last line Fishman...who here does not fall under the category of whiner? This whole freaking topic is a big whine! Even you agree that certain things need to change. What's the difference between a new revised rulebook and some new revised characters? or Powers? Seems reasonable to me. The way they price the powers is arbitrary anyways. Even if they make a spreadsheet for the Characters, who says that power X costs 2 and power y costs 3? If it would make the game funner for present and future fans, why the resitance to change?

[darius_dax1]

True, but whining versus rules whiners is not considered whining.:)

[onew0rd]

hahaha OK. sure....:rolleyes:

[darius_dax1]

It would be considered instructional.;)

[warden]

Originally posted by FishmanLT
"Oh, you were finished. Well, allow me to retort"

And even though we have been comparing chess with Heroclix, there are some remarkable differences. Chess never requires a die roll to determine the outcome of any situation. We are just using chess as an example because it is widely known as a very strategic game. But, in keeping with chess, if its taken over a 1000 years to make it the game it is today, then we really shouldn't be expecting any Heroclix rules changes for another 25 years or so.

Pulp Fiction is awesome but I don't get why people keep citing chess as if it's a good model to follow. The standard game is played out to the point that its openings are more stereotyped than a comic book plot. It's so simple and predictable that it's possible to figure everything out and so you have to use clocks to stop players sitting there thinking indefinitely. Even then, the standard game moves at a snail's pace.

Bobby Fischer suggested that the back rank of pieces should be randomised at the start to shake things up. That's the state that serious checkers has reached - openings are drawn at random to get players out of the book. Myself, I can only stomach the game if it's jazzed up in some way - fairy chess, cylindrical chess, speed chess, Knightmare, whatever.

You can treat Heroclix like chess - that's exactly how world champion Rex Wycott describes it. But that's not what the game has been designed for. It has been designed to be fast and fun not serious and strategical. That's why it uses dice. That's why you're not supposed to look ahead at the dial. That's why the pieces are colourful comic book characters.

However one approaches the game, it's clear that the game's rule set has not yet achieved the classic status of chess. Like most collectible games, the game and its rules are a work-in-progress, changing every time that there is a new expansion or FAQ. Chess would be more fun if a new piece came out every year but that's not going to happen under FIDE. If you want stability and tradition play chess. If you want change and variety play Heroclix. Ok?

Andrew

[FishmanLT]

Andrew

Thats pretty cool how you just rearranged the letters in your name to get your login name.

Do you think that Bobby Fischer would complain about Outwit if he played Heroclix?

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Borken, I believe, was originally a type-o that caught on. I like the afore mentioned definition of the word.

The Constitution can be changed, but it is such a hard process to gaurantee that is what the MAJORITY of the people want.

The thing about loopholes is that in games, everyone has the same ability to take advantage of it. In fact, every rule should be taken advantage of in any game as long as it doesn't cross the threshold of cheating.

not exactely...

If I don't want to play with FL/BP/Vulture or Ultron/Psylocke or Batman team ability (because I dont like them), thesame loopholes are NOT available to me.

Majority of people...

Well, I'm discussing this possible "rulechange" (which won't happen if WK doesn't feel thesame aboot it)to see if there are more people that feel thesame way.


one-liners like: the Queen is broken, I do consider as trolling a mockery :devious: and they do not add to the discussion.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by the itsy bit
not exactely...
If I don't want to play with FL/BP/Vulture or Ultron/Psylocke or Batman team ability (because I dont like them), thesame loopholes are NOT available to me.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! They are availiable to you. You just choose not to use them. A Big Mac is availiable to you, if you choose to order a Quarter Pounder or go to Taco Bell instead is up to you.

It is YOUR CHOICE to not field those 'broken' figures. If you choose to not field them you forfeit your right to complain about not having the 'loopholes' availiable to you. That is not Hero-Clix's problem to fix. It is your problem to fix.

:cry: "Mommy, mommy! He's not playing fair because I won't use my own tools smarter than he does. Can you make it fairer for me because I choose to play dumb?":cry:

[TheEnigma]

I reserve the right to Outwit this thread.

If they leave the "borken" rules, then the people against them will be the whiners.
If they change the rules, the people who use them will be the whiners.
If this thread continues any further, everyone will be whining.

FACT: Either the rules will change or they won't. Unless you have an 'official' petition one way or the other, please stop attempting to convert everyone who reads this thread.

If there's enough people who believe a certain combination of figures/powers is unbalanced, then there's got to be something there. Maybe every single one of those players sucks the big one and just can't handle simple strategy. But I kinda doubt it. Certainly figuring out what exactly is wrong and coming up with an agreeable solution isn't easy, but name-calling and insulting someone's intelligence for even wanting to discuss it is childish and pointless.

I would happy to start up another thread and leave this mess behind if anyone wants to discuss the idea further.

[warden]

Originally posted by FishmanLT
Andrew

Thats pretty cool how you just rearranged the letters in your name to get your login name.

Do you think that Bobby Fischer would complain about Outwit if he played Heroclix?

I like playing Scrabble too - it's more fun than chess. :)

Someone always takes "Andrew" first. See Andrew Season! (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?1012) But whoever takes it never uses it, I find. Weird, eh?

Going back to chess, another reason that the game is broken is that White has a big edge. The ultimate chess game is probably:

white: P-K4
black: resigns

Was it Fischer who said that God opens with the King's pawn? It's the Firelord of chess.

Andrew

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by warden
Was it Fischer who said that God opens with the King's pawn? It's the Firelord of chess.

Andrew

Do they make a clix of that?

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by FishmanLT
So stop complaining, stop whining, and stop trying to ruining the game by trying to change all the #### rules. You think the rules should be different? Go make your own Hero adventure collectible miniatures game with your own rules and see how well you do. Otherwise, sit down, shut up, and roll the dice.

Or I guess there is always checkers.

ok, these people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to express their opinion on the rules and the pieces as you do to whine about all the complaints


now i am gonna go back and read the whole tread...

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by warden

white: P-K4
black: resigns

Was it Fischer who said that God opens with the King's pawn? It's the Firelord of chess.

Andrew


um, just curious but who do you play chess against? there is a single move and MANY other options that stomps that tactic (i am thinking of a certain blitzkrieg set up) and i have yet to see i esperianced player even phased by it.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Insaniac99
ok, these people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to express their opinion on the rules and the pieces as you do to whine about all the complaints


now i am gonna go back and read the whole tread...

I think what he was trying to say is that the way they try to express their point is not constructive. It is like they say these are the problems and you have to use these solutions.

[FishmanLT]

darius_dax1 understands. We all know that heroclix isn't completely perfect. And we all have read posts with people whining about the rules or certain pieces. Maybe there are just too many children posting on these forums. Oh well. back to checkers.