Let's Fix this game.

[Brazil]

HeroClixGuru wrote:
<<I think your idea that the con artist will ruin the game is incorrect. That's why I think a game would prove to you that it is not that serious.>>
It appears as though our quality computer times may conflict, but this would hinder a Forum game in the least. Since I was planning on using Con Artist abuse, to further promote my point, a forum game would allow people watching here to view the spectical and jusdge for themselves.
I PMed you my e-mail address. e-mail me and we'll get it started.

[Super_Member]

You couldn't have fun in a 300 point or a 200 point game the way heroclix was made to be played? Really, I don't have a problem with it and I'm sure Mindsend doesn't either. We embrace others opinions. ;) Unlike others around here. We are giving you a hard time because you have given Brazil and others a hard time for their house rules, and you can't see that you made a house rule yourself. The same thing that can be said about your house rules can be said for anyone elses house rules. If Brazil wants to have fun and not allow con-artist then why not? He wants to have FUN. Tell me how this is bad?:cheeky:

[MindsEnd]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. WizKids official tournament rules show that there is no 250 point format to play therefore the 250 point format is either 1) illegal or 2) a house rule. What your arguing is somantics (probably spelt wrong)

[DCFan#1]

So what you are saying is basically "what's good for the goose is good for the gander..." correct? That is, after all, what you said:

Super_Member wrote:
"We are giving you a hard time because you have given Brazil and others a hard time...". I admit my role here in the Realms, you on the other seem a bit fuzzy on yours. First you claim to fight for the people, and then you claim to do what others do because you see them getting away with it. Which is it Super_Member?

And for your question here is your answer ---
Not allowing figures produced by Wizkids and completely legal in tournament play adversely effects the game itself. That is bad for the game as a whole. Playing a different format does not.

-Rich

[DCFan#1]

I'll tell ya what, Mindsend, let's see if we can get an answer here. I just PM'd both HeroComplex and Tsannik the following message:

"Alright, I'm sure one of the two of you are aware of the current "Let's fix this game" thread. A format question has come up. Is a 250 point three action game legal for tournament play? A simple yes or no and why posted in that thread would be appreciated."

Rich
DCFan#1

[Brazil]

Supermember & Mindsend,
You might be taking this thread in an off direction. I'm not proposing house rules here. I do want to see the Official rules changed as I proposed. Wether DC Fan chooses to play a house rules game or not has no relivance.

If however you were demonstrating DC Fan's hipocritical attitude twards house rules, and all things "not what he thinks". Then more power to you. That's pretty much the case.

[MindsEnd]

Yes that's the point I made in the first post when I started the debate. And like how you dodge parts of what I posted. the "format" you suggested at a tournament where people compete for an LE is not part of what WizKids calls an "official" format.

[DCFan#1]

We'll see Mindsend, I'm sure an answer is on it's way.

[MindsEnd]

Direct Quote from the Rulebook for HeroClix. Page 5, sentence number 2.

Build totals must be in multiples of 100.

[Tsannik]

Alrighty.... technically....

Using both the rulebook and the HtH Tourney rules for Heroclix.

Rulebook:
Build totals must be in multiples of 100

HtH Tourney rules
A force Marvel HeroClix figures. The default build total is 200 points, but the tournament officials may choose to use forces of 300, 400, 500, or even more points. Check with the Venue or Judge before the tournament to ask about the correct build total for the event. Players use the same force for the entire event.

Officially, tourneys are supposed to be in multiples of 100.

[DCFan#1]

I think the important part of the quote from the rulebook was: "Check with the Venue or Judge before the tournament to ask about the correct build total for the event."

That says it all.

Ya know, this tangent really just started as a fun comment to our local Skrull leader, Shin-Goji. I'm sorry if once again I've offended anyone with my joy for the game.

-Rich

[MindsEnd]

I'm calling it quits with you DCFAN. I'm not gonna go off kilter again in arguing with you again. I might be doing it cuz I'm gonna get a year older soon and not looking forward to it. :)

Your see it your way and I see it mine and we simply agree strong enough to not change our minds no matter what anyone else thinks or what we miss when we read a persons post.
I also find it amusing that you call in the judge and he says that I was correct and you still scramble to try and still see it your way just for the sake of the arguement.

[DCFan#1]

It's sad to see you go, MindsEnd. Do yourself a favor, and just try to have some fun with this game. You'll be a lot more happy.

-Rich

[Super_Member]

*Puts on a mask of DCFan*
I don't remember saying anything about goose, geese, or gander. If you are going to quote someone do it right or don't do it at all.
*Happily removes mask of DCFan*
Ok fine, I'll respond to your lame answer.

Why not allow a 250 point game?

First you gave 3 actions per 250 points, It is an action per 100 points officailly. You have a larger percentage of figures who can move that should not have been able to on your turn with the extra action you gave. This affects all Avengers, Brotherhood, JLA, and all wildcards as they could have just used the extra action you gave to move them instead of their team abilty. This makes them slightly overcosted in your type of game.

Second we will have people making great 211 points teams or even 203 point teams. You wanna play or not?

For simplicity and fairness we have 100 point increments games. I don't care if you keep your houserule or not. Just as long as you take some of your advice and "Keep your houserules to yourself." It want do this game any good with people spreading their houserules around.(I don't feel this way, it is DCFan who feels this way because his passion for the game makes him rub salt in wound on those with houserules especially if you did not register before him. I am just giving him some of his medicine.)

Why can you not play a game without Con artist? We played games without them before X-plosion arrived. Were they any less fun? Will removing hookers unbalance X-plosion? Does every character in explosion need one hooker to power him so that he will be balanced with the other sets? I don't think so. I don't see *how* playing no con-artist unbalances game. Some people have been playing with a no-medic rule and they will tell you they had more fun, and that it didn't unbalance the game.

[azhael]

I can't believe I'm posting in this thread, but in reguards to point totals, I have played in officially sanctioned tournies using 250 points as a build total. We used 2 actions per turn, and everything worked out just fine and the Judge running never had any complaints from players or Wizkids.

[Brazil]

CCTealander Wrote:
<<I can't recall a single "such and such is broken/is undercosted/is too powerful/needs to be fixed" issue that you haven't thrown your support behind.>>

Actually CCT, you can't recall a single Undercosted/too powerful thread, that I posted in that I didn't myself start. Now I have posted in other people's threads about Firelord being too powerful for the points. But my undercosted/overcosted threads...and I think there have been 4 of them, if you want to count this one, since it got a little off target and drug in that direction for a little while. Anyhow those were all threads that I started about those topics. If you don't like them, quit browsing threads started by me.....it's your own fault you're reading them. And if you like reading them and arguing with me, fine do it...but don't complain about me spaming someone elses thread...like you just did.

[MindsEnd]

Thx DCFAN. I hope you have fun when you play the game. I know enjoy the game when I play it other than the fact that it's the only escape I get from the wife and kids. :)

[Tsannik]

Yeah... ah... let me just say this...

Officially Sanctioned Tournements are supposed to be in multiples of 100.

Using any other point value in a Sanctioned tourney would be a house rule. The tourney would still be Sanctioned, but it is a house rule, nonetheless.

[Brazil]

azhael,
I applogize you got drug into this thread as well. It wasn't my doing... It was the most annoying man on earth (DC Fan), who's try to win some silly tangential argument that developed here from one of his rants.
Sorry DC Fan wasted your time that could have better been served helping confused players with rules.
-Brazil

[DCFan#1]

Tsannik, a house rule is not allowing Firelord. Deciding on a build total is a Format. There's a difference.

-Rich

[Brazil]

Tsannik,
Double appologies to you!! You really shouldn't have had your time waisted with this. How's Dallas? My best friend is down in Austin, he sez it's Hot and Shytty.
-Braz

[DCFan#1]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the part of DCFan#1 will be played tonight (poorly) by Brazil...

[MindsEnd]

Mostly the reason I picked the 250pt tourney thing was to argue with DCFAN. I was arguing using the tactics that have been used against people with opposing view points on how they feel the game should be played.
I was trying to make a point about how you can discuss something without the name calling even if you don't see it the same way as someone else and they start to frustrate you.
I stated that I don't like DCFAN that's incorrect, I should have said I don't care for the way he debates. I'm sure if I met him at his venue I probably wouldn't mind playing him a game.

[Brazil]

GAdds, can we let the 250 point team argument die??? It really has no bearing on this thread, other than to demonstrate how childish you are DC Fan. And now, you've gone and wasted two respected judges times responding to that sillyness.....and as a bonus, you don't like Tsannik's answer so you're arguing with him. Let it be, it's a way off base argement, and has no bearing on the topic of this thread!!

[Super_Member]

I think the important part of the quote from the rulebook was: "Check with the Venue or Judge before the tournament to ask about the correct build total for the event.

That says it all"

Yes it does, it would suck to think the tournament was 200 points when it was really 400 point.:cheeky:

[JohnShaft31]

I like the game and wanted to be a part of this horrendous thread.

Hugs and Kisses

Shaft

[Brazil]

Oh, now wait a minute, if it turns out that when DC Fan realizes that he himself used a house rule, that he might commit sepacu, then by all means lets continue pounding on that point. But let's do it without bothering Judges who have better things to do, like answer important rules questions people have.

[Brazil]

JohnShaft .... ROFL

Too funny.

[DCFan#1]

And I'm being completly honest here, no sarcasm (honest). MindsEnd is correct. If we met at a venue and played a game, I'm sure we'd have fun. It seems we both share a passion for this game, and just demonstrate it in different ways. Do I care for the way MindsEnd debates? No. Does that make me (or him) a bad person? No? Do I agree with the judge of whom I asked for a ruling? No? Does that somehow make me a bad person? No. Does that make him wrong? No. I appreciate his comments here, I just don't agree. I've thanked him privately, and I'm sure he know I respect his opinion.

There are two different worlds in the game of HeroClix. There are the posting boards at HCRealms, and then there is the real game. A small portion of us that play come here to share stories and discuss/debate/argue ideas. Then there is the game itself, which is drastically different than this virtual world. What happens in the game is fun. What happens in the game makes us look forward to the next expansion. What happens in the game makes us dream about the rumor of World Championships in Chicago at Wizard World. These two worlds, however, are miles apart. And for that, I am thankful.

-Rich

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
CCTealander Wrote:
<<I can't recall a single "such and such is broken/is undercosted/is too powerful/needs to be fixed" issue that you haven't thrown your support behind.>>

Actually CCT, you can't recall a single Undercosted/too powerful thread, that I posted in that I didn't myself start. Now I have posted in other people's threads about Firelord being too powerful for the points. But my undercosted/overcosted threads...and I think there have been 4 of them, if you want to count this one, since it got a little off target and drug in that direction for a little while. Anyhow those were all threads that I started about those topics. If you don't like them, quit browsing threads started by me.....it's your own fault you're reading them. And if you like reading them and arguing with me, fine do it...but don't ##### about it like in your last post.

Gee, thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to give it every bit of consideration it's due.

Now, wanna discuss the issue in a civil manner?

Like I said, Brazil, you seem like a decent enough guy but I still think you're being overly negative. In your opinion, is there ANYTHING about this game that actually works? I mean, come on man! So far you've managed to uncover quite a list of serious "problems" with HC.

Firelord (along with a few others) is/are undercosted.
Outwit is too powerful.
Probability Control is too powerful.
Barrier is too powerful.
Kang, Nightmare, and a few others are overcosted.
Perplex is too powerful.
Taxi-ing needs to be fixed.
RCE is too powerful.
Wildcards are too powerful.

I'm sure I've forgotten at least 1 or 2. The point is, do you really believe that the people at WizKids are so grossly incompetent that they just let that many serious "problems" slip by? Doesn't the magnitude of what you think needs to be "fixed" cause you to question your basic premise, even just a little?

What you're proposing isn't just a tweak here and a tweak there. It's a MAJOR overhaul. And, clearly, there are many of us who think it's completely unnecessary. Think about it.

[Brazil]

<<WizKids are so grossly incompetent that they just let that many serious "problems" slip by?>> Yes I do. Well I don't know that "Wizkids" as a whole is Grossly incompetent, that is putting awfully harsh words in my mouth that I didn't say. (thanks CCT) On the buisiness side of things Wizkids does a wonderful job. And the Figures are truely impressive, they've done a great job on those....well a few facial paint jobs aside. (I have a thor at home that I'm not even sure if he has the right number of eyes, much less has them in the right locations on his head.) But overall I'm very impressed with that. Wizkids also does an admarable job of standing behind their product quality. They also take the time to put out FAQs to clarify their original poorly written rule book, and to make rulings to keep the game fair and playable. I am attempting with this thread to bring up more possible changes, and proposed fixes. I'm pretty certain Wizkids is going to make some ruling to do something about Con Artists, I'm just offering my possible solution to the things they are considering. Jon Lassiter himself made overtones that he would like to see the Taxi rules tweeked in some way...so again I'm offering that.

And as for you asumption that I think all those Item that were listed are "too Powerful"...those are your words you're trying to put in my mouth. Not my words. My words are that those superpowers you mentioned are too powerful, when given to an extremely low point figure like the Con Artist. It is especially true of powers that have no action tokens assigned to them. If there were an 11 point Outwiter it would be as glaring a problem as the 11 point Perplexer. As it is (in my opinion), 27 point outwit is too cheap. So, either raise the cost of figures with these abilities...or degrade those powers if you're going to keep them on such cheap figures so that they don't take away from the game by making many figures unplayable.

[tchalla27]

i don't think that there is a reason why outwit should be changed. in almost every comic book there is "that guy" who is oh so cool that is almost unbeatable, but then spiderman realizes that terrax is only unstoppable while he is touching the ground or the black panther or batman analyzes a situation and uncovers the 'secret ' weakness of the opponent and if working with a team yells that info to their teammates for them to exploit as well.

the only problem i see with taxis is the lack of balance from the comic book stand point i.e.: the wasp could not carry the hulk , while the hulk could quite easily carry say spiderman...but as far as the strategic abuses of playing 3 wasps to carry 3 bullseyes for free...perfectly legal, if not the most honorable play to make..( and honorable only means playing at a self imposed handicap to compensate for your opponents potential lack of ability to truly utilize all of the options at their disposal ...quite insulting when worded like that , right?)

if you want to talk about things that should be changed, look at the current line of sight rules: an elevated fig can see anywhere he needs to , over other figs , blah blah blah. but the grounded target cannot see back up, if any fig is anywhere inbetween him and the elevated target? i saw a great point made for this change, and it should be considered: the only time the line of sight from a grounded guy to an elevated one should be blocked is by a fig in an adjacent square between the firer and the target, not by any random figure that is still grounded, as at any distance other than right in the firers face , he/she could see over the next fig.

any way, i'll probably just post this as a separate posting under the dear wizkids, to help bring this to their attention as well.

[Brazil]

Outwit and Taxi, I am not proposing changing because they are unrealistic. They need to be changed because of how they affect gameplay and figure balance. In comic books non-flying teams or figures aren't at the profound disadvantage they are in this game when one side uses Taxi's and the other does not. Basically the current Taxi rules force everyone to play Taxi's if they want to be competative.

Outwit, when on cheap figures like rookie BP, ruins figure balance, making many of the high costed figures who rely on Invulnerability to be "worth their points", no longer worth their points. BP is extra abusive because he has both the Avenger's free move, and Stealth...which means you get mobile outwit, that's difficult to get rid of.

Perplex on the other hand, I do want changed, for precisely the reason you give about LOS....it's unrealistic. Though, I don't mind the LOS anomoly you point out. It can be justified as the "High ground" advantage, allowing the high ground figure to "duck below the edge of the building" whereas the figrue on the ground has nowhere to duck.

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
<<WizKids are so grossly incompetent that they just let that many serious "problems" slip by?>>

Yes I do.

Fair enough. I disagree. Strongly.


Originally posted by Brazil
Well I don't know that "Wizkids" as a whole is Grossly incompetent, that is putting awfully harsh words in my mouth that I didn't say. (thanks CCT)

Sorry you see it that way. I believe in stating things plainly and in no uncertain terms.

Your basic premise is that a large percentage of existing figures are improperly costed, that they're either too inexpensive, or too expensive. Judging by the revised cost chart you posted some months ago, you feel something on the order of half the existing figs suffer from this deficiency. By any reasonable standard, to produce ANY product so poorly that something near half of your line is faulty qualifies as gross incompetence.

Originally posted by Brazil
On the buisiness side of things Wizkids does a wonderful job. And the Figures are truely impressive, they've done a great job on those....well a few facial paint jobs aside. (I have a thor at home that I'm not even sure if he has the right number of eyes, much less has them in the right locations on his head.) But overall I'm very impressed with that. Wizkids also does an admarable job of standing behind their product quality. They also take the time to put out FAQs to clarify their original poorly written rule book, and to make rulings to keep the game fair and playable.

I'm glad to see that you're not totally negative about HC and WizKids. And I agree that the poorly written rule book is a legitimate issue. Also, that some of the paint jobs are less than spectacular.

Originally posted by Brazil
I am attempting with this thread to bring up more possible changes, and proposed fixes.

Which many of us feel are totally unwarranted.

Originally posted by Brazil
I'm pretty certain Wizkids is going to make some ruling to do something about Con Artists,

I sincerely hope you're wrong.

Originally posted by Brazil
I'm just offering my possible solution to the things they are considering. Jon Lassiter himself made overtones that he would like to see the Taxi rules tweeked in some way...so again I'm offering that.

There's nothing inherently wrong with taxis as they currently exist. Again, I hope you're wrong that some kind of change is in the works.

Originally posted by Brazil
And as for you asumption that I think all those Item that were listed are "too Powerful"...those are your words you're trying to put in my mouth. Not my words. My words are that those superpowers you mentioned are too powerful, when given to an extremely low point figure like the Con Artist. It is especially true of powers that have no action tokens assigned to them. If there were an 11 point Outwiter it would be as glaring a problem as the 11 point Perplexer. As it is (in my opinion), 27 point outwit is too cheap. So, either raise the cost of figures with these abilities...or degrade those powers if you're going to keep them on such cheap figures so that they don't take away from the game by making many figures unplayable.

I understand what your point is and apologize for my rather sloppy phrasing. The bottom line, however, is that under your view a large percentage of existing figs are improperly costed. My experience says otherwise.

[DCFan#1]

Brazil wrote:
" Basically the current Taxi rules force everyone to play Taxi's if they want to be competative."

How about this Brazil. You saw my post earlier about they tournament and my Skrull Army. Keep in mind I took 2nd place with this, losing only in the last game. There were 8 people total playing in the tournament.

SuperSkrull
Raksor
Nenora
3x Exp Skrull Commando
3x Exp Skrull Warrior
1x Exp Skrull Agent

How did I win two games without a taxi? More importantly, how did I win two games with just Skrulls? Did my lack of taxi or perplex or outwit change my chances of winning. Apparently not. The team that beat me had ShadowCat and Vision (both with Phasing), thus my strategy of tying up with the small guys and blasting with Super Skrull didn't work. That team CRUSHED the first two opponents (full kill) while only taking half of my team to win. I'm being completely serious Brazil. Explain to me how, in your unbalanced view of the game, I won.

-Rich

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Brazil wrote:
" Basically the current Taxi rules force everyone to play Taxi's if they want to be competative."

How about this Brazil. You saw my post earlier about they tournament and my Skrull Army. Keep in mind I took 2nd place with this, losing only in the last game. There were 8 people total playing in the tournament.

SuperSkrull
Raksor
Nenora
3x Exp Skrull Commando
3x Exp Skrull Warrior
1x Exp Skrull Agent

How did I win two games without a taxi? More importantly, how did I win two games with just Skrulls? Did my lack of taxi or perplex or outwit change my chances of winning. Apparently not. The team that beat me had ShadowCat and Vision (both with Phasing), thus my strategy of tying up with the small guys and blasting with Super Skrull didn't work. That team CRUSHED the first two opponents (full kill) while only taking half of my team to win. I'm being completely serious Brazil. Explain to me how, in your unbalanced view of the game, I won.

-Rich

Or, he could explain how, in my Forum game with Phil, I managed to win with an ALL GROUNDED (that's NO flyers at all) Masters of Evil team. Granted, Phil only had 1 flyer himself in that game. But I've also played that team in 1 tourney and won half my games with it against teams with the normal compliment of taxis. Doesn't fit in too well with the view that one absolutely MUST play taxis to win, eh?

[DCFan#1]

My point exactly.

-Rich

[darius_dax1]

Wow, an outsider comes to this thread and accuses Brazil of not liking Heroclix, and states his reasons well.

As far as house rules are concerned: Use them if you like. I do at home. We use Matchbox type cars as heavy objects. I would not, however, expect anyone else to use that rule. Discuss your house rules in this forum if you like. I think that could be healthy and maybe you will find some that you will use at home as well. But what Brazil is proposing is creating a brand new game based on the game we all play now. Because he either does not like the game or cannot play it well with the figures he complains about. I have no problems with using any of the figures Brazil is inept at fielding. Hobgoblin has his uses. He is a great taxi for Bullseye. If you take away taxiing then you diminish Hobgoblins role in this game. Poor old Hobgoblin will still sit at the bottom of Brazil's toybox.

[Brazil]

Look, it's possible to win a game or even a tournament without Taxi's. (Especially so now with Con Artists, but that's a different topic...so lets talk pre-Xplosion) However, don't confuse the words POSSIBLE with the word PROBABLE. There is luck in this game, if one player sits down and rolls nothing but 2's he's gonna lose even if he has a 500 point army against 1 loan Thug. However, what I'm discussing here is "Game Balance" and pre-CT all the major tournaments at the major cons were all won with Firelord teams using Taxi's.

Surely you're not arguing that teams based on using Taxi's aren't the majority of teams out there? If you're not conseeding this point then you are uninformed. This basically means that most teams use Taxi Strategy....and that's not very comic realistic. Flying just isn't the prolific strategy in that world which is being represented by this game. And in this game Taxi's give you significantly increased chance of getting off the first attack, which more often than not in this game swings the outcome your way, as this game has a huge tendancy to snowball.

[Brazil]

D.D. wrote:
<<Because he either does not like the game or cannot play it well with the figures he complains about.>>

Are we back to this again Darius? Are you learning impared?

Do I or do I not get to be the foremost and unarguable athority on what I like or don't like?

As for the second part I have credentials proving otherwise. How did you do in your last 4 Marquees Darius?

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
Look, it's possible to win a game or even a tournament without Taxi's. (Especially so now with Con Artists, but that's a different topic...so lets talk pre-Xplosion) However, don't confuse the words POSSIBLE with the word PROBABLE. There is luck in this game, if one player sits down and rolls nothing but 2's he's gonna lose even if he has a 500 point army against 1 loan Thug. However, what I'm discussing here is "Game Balance" and pre-CT all the major tournaments at the major cons were all won with Firelord teams using Taxi's.

I believe, and have always believed, that superior strategy and tactics will VERY frequently overcome even the worst of luck. If I didn't, I wouldn't bother playing these types of games, since then it would just be random chance and not player skill that determines the outcome.

As far as Firelord goes, the "all the major tornaments" you refer to amounts to exactly 3. Not what I'd call a huge, or even representative, sample group.

Originally posted by Brazil
Surely you're not arguing that teams based on using Taxi's aren't the majority of teams out there?

You're quite correct. I'm not arguing that at all.

Originally posted by Brazil
If you're not conseeding this point then you are uninformed. This basically means that most teams use Taxi Strategy....and that's not very comic realistic.
Flying just isn't the prolific strategy in that world which is being represented by this game. And in this game Taxi's give you significantly increased chance of getting off the first attack, which more often than not in this game swings the outcome your way, as this game has a huge tendancy to snowball.

In spite of the fact that I've been reading and collecting comics since 1965, I couldn't care less about "comic realism." HeroClix isn't a comic book. It's not bound by comic book conventions. It's a game, and subject to a whole different set of "rules." It should, IMO, be approached from that standpoint.

Also, consider this. If taxi-ing is changed, it will immediately render any ground pounders who don't have Charge less effective. That amounts to almost ALL of them from IC, and a decent number of them from other sets. That's not an improvement.

[DCFan#1]

Brazil, come on! I was playing against figures from X-Plosion. There were Con Artists involved in each game. It doesnt' matter.

I'm not confusing probable and possible here. I won because I understand the game. I won because I can adapt. I won in spite of all the "flaws" you've "identified" in this game.

-Rich

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Wow, an outsider comes to this thread and accuses Brazil of not liking Heroclix, and states his reasons well.

Thanks for the compliment!

In all fairness to Brazil though, I've debated with him in the past and he's not a bad guy. He DOES feel very strongly about his position, and is pretty much unflagging in that regard. It's unlikely anyone will change his mind, IMO.

At one point, he and I were supposed to play a series of online games to help prove or disprove the Firelord is broken theory, but "real life" issues came up that caused me to be absent for a few months. I'd love to give his Sentinels/Con Artist team a whirl now though.

[TychesCoin]

perplex:
a) is absolutely not unbalanced if it isn't massed.
b) each use of perplex is more effective on figures with lots of powers and/or good base stats. these figures are typically costly.
c) has no defensive use.
d) after a certain point continuing to perplex a stat becomes redundant(a 20 attack misses just as often as a 21, only so many squares on the board, depending on who the target is, 6 damage could be overkill.
e)heavily perplexing movement is not game breaking. its hard to surpass what could be done with a taxi (often cheaper).
f)heavily perplexing attack isn't gamebreaking. one attack at 16 attack value isn't a huge deal if they can hit you, you should be able to hit them back unless
g) range is heavily perplexed. this is more dangerous, but ranged combat has weaknesses. stealth, barrier, careful line of sight management. this is also the only way perplex can help protect figures from retribution by allowing them to significantly outrange opponents
h)heavily perplexed damage isn't anything new. I think most of us have seen someone deal 8+ damage using shield agents, enhancement or flurry+bcf.
i)perplexed damage will only affect a single target per action unless the perplexed figure has flurry or is a sentinel. in case of flurry, you should be able to out ange the figure.
j)combining perplexed attack and/or damage with perplexed range only requires that the range factor be defeated (find somepace to hide)

so ultimately perplex is only broken if a highly perplexed range is too powerful. so at what point does range become too great? does it ever reach that point? i'm not convinced. and if it does wouldn't the simplest solution be to limit it to affecting the four primary stats rather than completely restructuring the mechanics. i don't think there is a problem, further the only area were i see any potential for a problem is in regards to heavily increased range.

apologies for typos my keyboard's gone nuts. had to use an onscreen keyboard for this. took forever. don't think i'll be posting until i pick up a replacement

[darius_dax1]

apologies for typos my keyboard's gone nuts. had to use an onscreen keyboard for this. took forever. don't think i'll be posting until i pick up a replacement

You will be missed. I think you have added a great deal to this thread. Not quite on either 'side' but the balance of somewhere in the middle. Get that keyboard fixed soon!

[Brazil]

<<Also, consider this. If taxi-ing is changed, it will immediately render any ground pounders who don't have Charge less effective. That amounts to almost ALL of them from IC, and a decent number of them from other sets. That's not an improvement.>>
See my proposed change for Taxi. It still gives Fliers some use, I also poposed as part of the change, and enhancement to both Running Shot and RCE. The big thing it does is eliminate the practically mandatory need for Taxi's on teams.

[Brazil]

Also, from now on I only want to debate with CCTealander, and TsychesCoin. They present points, site examples and keep the pointless drivel to a minimum, and they are respectful, and though they don't always agree with what others write, they do seem to read what others write. DC Fan, Darius, you can go away now...

[darius_dax1]

Sorry Brazil, I'm here to stay.

Your proposed idea for taxies is not needed. There is not a mandatory need for taxies. That is your choice. You could just as easily use TKers for movement enhancers. If you don't want me around then put me on your ignore list. I won't mind.

[Brazil]

True, you aren't REQUIRED to use Taxiers, but since 90% of the teams currently played use them, that means that the advantages of the current Taxi rule is dictating play style too much. People are near-forced to use Taxi's to be compatative. If we change the Taxi rule so that the use of them isn't as essential as it is now, then a more divers set of teams and strategies will be seen enriching the tournament scene and game play.

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could just play a couple ground pounders like Juggernaut and Hulk and have a chance of competing? They don't have a chance, unless they bring along Taxi's because opponents who are using taxi's will move and shoot. If Jugs and Hulk were allowed charge like capabilities, then they might be able to get off an attack. Currently they have to MOVE into position, then Attack the next turn, when in all likelyhood, the will no longer be in position. The same holds true for Range attackers if they don't have running shot.

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
<<Also, consider this. If taxi-ing is changed, it will immediately render any ground pounders who don't have Charge less effective. That amounts to almost ALL of them from IC, and a decent number of them from other sets. That's not an improvement.>>

See my proposed change for Taxi. It still gives Fliers some use, I also poposed as part of the change, and enhancement to both Running Shot and RCE. The big thing it does is eliminate the practically mandatory need for Taxi's on teams.

In all honesty, I kinda like the ideas you've put forth in this reagard. They would add a lot of new strategic and tactical options.

My problem with them is I believe they'd probably wind up creating other, unforeseen problems. They'd have to be play tested extensively before we'd ever know. And I can'y wholeheartedly support them until we know one way or the other.

I'll always favor new ideas that ADD to the dimesions of the game, rather than restrict existing strategic and tactical options.

[darius_dax1]

This can all be solved with simple measures like which side of the map you choose to start on. Use cheap, and otherwise supportive, taxies. TK your Bricks into the fray. Draw your enemy into your home field. Select a diverse team of Bricks and Rangers. Choose your support wisely.

[DCFan#1]

Ya Brazil, I'm here to stay as well. How amazingly childish can you get man? Answer the question from the other page. You can't just say "I don't want to talk to you any more" when your back is against the wall. I've given you plenty of examples and asked plenty of questions. You've ignored them all. That is why I, and many others, just assume you are no good. You want us to continue to think that, then continue to dodge the tough questions.

Now, re-read my post on page 53 and answer the question. If the game is broken, like you say, then how did I win with a team of Skrulls?

-Rich

[Brazil]

You are 100% correct CCTelander in everything you just said.

playtesting would definitely be required. And it is entirely possible that this change could open a whole new can-o-worms problem.

[Brazil]

Sorry folks....DC Fan is requiring me to stoop to his level...please bare with me.

DC Fan Wrote:
<<Now, re-read my post on page 53 and answer the question. If the game is broken, like you say, then how did I win with a team of Skrulls?>>

Two things:
1st of all you didn't win. You said yourself you came in second.

And 2nd, as amazingly unlikely as it sounds, maybe you found a group of people even dumber than yourself to play with. Say how many of the 2 whole people you beat were under age 10?

[Brazil]

and DC Fan wrote:
<<How amazingly childish can you get man? >>

Did that answer your other question? Was that childish enough for you?

[DCFan#1]

Just when I think you can't stoop any lower. I pity you Brazil.

-Rich

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
You are 100% correct CCTelander in everything you just said.

playtesting would definitely be required. And it is entirely possible that this change could open a whole new can-o-worms problem.

Along the same lines, I kinda like the "Fastball Special" idea that's been floating around for months now too. But it presents the same challenge. It could easily open up a whole new range of unforeseen problems. We've been thinking abot trying it out around here for a while, just for kicks.

[Brazil]

Oh, well thank you. Just when I thought you were a heartless moron, you take pity on me....I feel all warm and fuzzy now. Thanks DC Fan. Will you go away now? I answered your questions.

[Brazil]

"Fastball Special"???? I'm not firmiliar with it. What is it?

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
"Fastball Special"???? I'm not firmiliar with it. What is it?

It would allow characters with Super Strength to throw another fig (from an adjacent square) the same number of squares they can throw a heavy object. The thrown fig could then attack just as if they were taxied in. It's an idea worth considering, but it could lead to other problems.

[Anjin]

In reading through this thread I notice it goes from nice coherent debate to insult ridden drivel. Now I realize some of the things I posted yesterday came close to the latter and for that I apologize it was not my intention I got carried away with the rest of it.

Brazil, I don’t agree with your opinion but I understand what you are saying, and you have made some very valid points.

Now some of you…and you know who you are…GROW UP! I mean do you need to insult people to try and get your point across. You can disagree with out pointing in this drivel and it makes people take your points a little more seriously.

[Brazil]

hmm...that's sorta like giving SuperStrenght figures mini-TK ability.

That sounds more like something that belongs in bloodbowl.

Although if they come out with "the Tick" line, then we'll need some way to represent the Human Bullet...though I don't know that his sidekick "Fire-me Boy" would nessesarily deserve Super Strength.

hehehehe

I haven't read a Comic Book in 25 years, are superheros throwing each other into battle on a regular basis these days?

If that's become comic commonplace I suppose it should be modeled. If it happened once in issue #128 of a Hulk&spiderman team-up comic, then it's probably not nessesary to model it in HeroClix.

[Brazil]

Anjin wrote:
<<Now some of you…and you know who you are…GROW UP! I mean do you need to insult people to try and get your point across. You can disagree with out pointing in this drivel and it makes people take your points a little more seriously.>>

You know I'm not sure they do know. I bet that even as you read this either Daruis or DC Fan are typeing "Yeah you guys, knock it off."

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by Brazil
hmm...that's sorta like giving SuperStrenght figures mini-TK ability.

That sounds more like something that belongs in bloodbowl.

Although if they come out with "the Tick" line, then we'll need some way to represent the Human Bullet...though I don't know that his sidekick "Fire-me Boy" would nessesarily deserve Super Strength.

hehehehe

I haven't read a Comic Book in 25 years, are superheros throwing each other into battle on a regular basis these days?

If that's become comic commonplace I suppose it should be modeled. If it happened once in issue #128 of a Hulk&spiderman team-up comic, then it's probably not nessesary to model it in HeroClix.

It became a mainstay in X-Men back in the 70s, when Colossus started tossing Wolverine into battle. It's been copied in other books from time to time, and has basically become almost cliche. It happens enough that even the comic book purists couldn't seriously object to it, at least, not on "comic realism" grounds.

Like I said though, it could create other problems.

[imafineboy]

I read this thread when you first started it Brazil and I never saw a reson to come back i clicked here by accident and got more caught up. Anyway, I like the rules how they are now, and I don't think that the majority of people who play this game, frequent HCRealms so they probably aren't here to say so. If the majority of players like the rules now, why should wizkids listen to a small albeit loud minority?

[MindsEnd]

There 346 pages and at least 20 names per page and I doubt there's been more than a pages worth of people that have posted to this thread. How are you absolutely sure your speaking in the majority?

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Brazil
Anjin wrote:
<<Now some of you…and you know who you are…GROW UP! I mean do you need to insult people to try and get your point across. You can disagree with out pointing in this drivel and it makes people take your points a little more seriously.>>

You know I'm not sure they do know. I bet that even as you read this either Daruis or DC Fan are typeing "Yeah you guys, knock it off."

Yeah you guys, Knock it off.

"You're black." said the pot to the kettle.




Also, I hope my typeing is ok.

[Brazil]

<<If the majority of players like the rules now, why should wizkids listen to a small albeit loud minority?>>

That's a legitamate question.

Let me answer that with three other questions that I hope you will also consider as legitamate possibilities:

What if in the coming months Con Artist teams dominate play?

Is it possible that the majority of the players don't like ALL the rules?

Is it possible that some or all of my proposals could make the game funner to play?

[imafineboy]

I don't know that I'm speaking in the majority, that's why I said "IF", but I do know that the majority isn't here, regardless of how many pages are in this thread. (and why does mine say 55 pages, did i change my settings sometime and forget?) I stopped reading the thread around 10 pages after it started, because to me, it sounded like Brazil assumed he had the majority supporting him. I don't feel like that's the case, so I ask, again (with better wording) if you found that you were in the minority on this Brazil, would you still want to get Wizkids to change the rules?

[tchalla27]

don't forget that the perplexed sentinel thing was played wrong. you cannot perplex the same number more than once per turn. those are the rules.
outwitters rarely have more than a click or 2 of outwit.
invulnerability however tends to last for a few clicks as well, but then usually turns in to toughness.
point costs in this game are very well balanced, even if people don't want to accept those facts. team abilities as well as statistics help determine the final point costs.
and when you deliberately spend almost 200 points on just one figure, you know the risk you are taking.
i have a shield team that is undefeated from 2 tournaments in reno, as well as a skrull team that went undefeated in reno and in northern ca.
did i forget to mention that in the shield team i never even tried to heal anybody out of all of those games?
did i win because my opponents were morons? nope.
did their taxis win them the games? nope.
did i roll all 12's while they rolled all 1's? no.
i won due to strategic placement, combined with a working knowledge of my figures strengths and weaknesses and made sure to leave my opponent opportunities that were too hard to pass up.
the way it works? learn to play without the crutches.
you do not need medics to win a game. taxi's can be useful, but for competive play those points could have been spent upgrading one of you figs, or employing extra figs for your team that do more than just waste your teams actions for the turn.
is thor unstoppable?no
could shield take him down? maybe...they do have lost of technology behind them.
just don't write off so many elements because you are tired of them getting exploited. the players that are going to exploit things are going to find ways to exploit any rules changes as well.
i would love to see people champion the changes that don't make since instead of just the small things like point costs .

[Brazil]

<<don't forget that the perplexed sentinel thing was played wrong. you cannot perplex the same number more than once per turn. those are the rules.>>

Where is this in the rules?

[korinthe]

There are only a few aspects of this game that I find irritating, and think could use a change and/or modification. The first is the inability to throw another character. Be it picking up an enemy and throwing him away (requiring an attack roll to pick up), or picking up a friend and throwing him in to an enemy (ie fastball special), super strength just doesn't do enough for the high costs the characters with it seem to have. Maybe twice the printed damage value as a maximum distance thrown? Even if this means that the character being thrown takes damage, fine. Something could be worked out, for certain. Personally, I think the damage of both characters should be added together, and the thrown character should take damage equal to the damage the throwing character is adding to the attack. Hell, require each part of the attack to be done seperately. That is, follow these steps:

1) first the throwing character picks up his buddy and tosses him at an enemy, rolling to hit. This is only for throwing an ally, as an enemy would struggle too much, and the attack roll will be to throw him at all (in this instance, the character is treated as being knocked back, following those rules).

2) If successful, both the thrown character and the target of the attack take damage equal to the throwing character's printed damage value. If this roll fails, the thrown character continues to the maximum range (twice the printed damage value) using the knockback rules.

3) The thrown character, if successfully damaging the target, may then roll to attack as well (perhaps with a +2 to the target's defense?), using any appropriate special abilities, such as blades/claws.

The only other special ability I do not particularly like is regeneration. I'd much rather it be a team ability that allows a single click to be healed automatically at the beginning of each of your turns, even if it raises the cost, that is fine.

The other aspect of the game I seriously dislike, and hope they change soon, is the inability to mix and match powers on the same stat at the same time (ie hypersonic speed and phasing for nightcrawler, stealth and leap/climb for I don't know how many characters, etc). They could do this with a split square, ala Mage Knight's starting position, or they could do it by implementing common combos as new powers. Remember, they still have circular shapes instead of squares to utilize, immediately doubling the amount of powers available. They could also do this with additional team symbols, which I think is the ideal solution.

Why can't a character have more than one team symbol? This will allow for things like stealth, free-movement, Superman's x-ray vision, etc to be used by a vastly larger array of characters, while minimizing the amount of rules questions and headaches. This will also allow for things like multiple instances of a regeneration team ability, using my suggestion above, or multiple instances of the Mystic or Skrull team ability, and so on. Imagine adamantium-less Wolverine healing two clicks per turn, or Ghost Rider retaliating for two points of damage every time you hit him, or a Spider-man gaining two rolls, either of which must be a 6, to prevent damage from an attack.

Any suggestions or responses are welcome.

Overall I think the game is very well thought out, but can use some slight tweaks here and there.

[Brazil]

<<I stopped reading the thread around 10 pages after it started, because to me, it sounded like Brazil assumed he had the majority supporting him. I don't feel like that's the case, so I ask, again (with better wording) if you found that you were in the minority on this Brazil, would you still want to get Wizkids to change the rules?>>

At what point did I ever say or even suggest that the majority of people wanted these changes. Certainly the majority of people don't have a clue about my proposed changes.

A better question would be:
"Brazil if the majority of players tried, and didn't like your porposed changes would you still want them implemented?"
My answer is "No"

However, if the majority of people tried them, and it turned out to make a better, more ballanced, more diverse AND/OR funner game enviorment then..YES I would want them implemented.

[MindsEnd]

Part of the problem about perplex that's been debated is that it is stackable so you can raise any one stat one point per figure that has perplex showing. ie 11 con artist on their click of perplex if LOS can be drawn to figure equals +11 to whatever you want.

[DCFan#1]

The biggest problem her is Brazil. He's a child. He can't debate logically. What he's proposed would fundamentally change the game we play, on every level. No one would play anymore. Brazil and the vocal minority would be left, and there "useless" Hobgoblins would still be collecting dust in the bottom of the toybox.

Take a look at the last few pages, and the questions we've posed to him. He hasn't answered one. Why? Well, just read for yourself, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

-Rich

[Brazil]

<<i would love to see people champion the changes that don't make since instead of just the small things like point costs .>>

One of my two reasons for changing Perplex is that it doesn't make sence.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Stairs rule, which also doesn't make sense

And I also mentioned the Phasing - Blocking terrain rule which also doesn't make sence.

[Brazil]

DC Fan, I just answered all the questions you demanded of me in one of your last couple posts.

And no one here is more Vocal than you.

And you know that my changes would "Ruin the game", because you tried them???? Or even Considered them??? Or did you just see another thread by me, and decide to show up and start spamming that I'm stupid, and don't know how to play, and suck at the game, and hate the game...Like you always do?

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Shin - I thought of you last night as I played my ALL Skrull team in a 250 point tournament. I won my first two games, and lost the championship game. I did, however, pick up fellowship for my efforts. The prize - Paibok the Skrull. It was worth every minute of it!
-Rich

Congratulations!!! I had to trade or buy to get all my Skrull LE's, but it was well worth it. I'm gonna try and post my Skrull Army tonite. COngrats again!!

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by Brazil
<<i would love to see people champion the changes that don't make since instead of just the small things like point costs .>>

One of my two reasons for changing Perplex is that it doesn't make sence.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Stairs rule, which also doesn't make sense

And I also mentioned the Phasing - Blocking terrain rule which also doesn't make sence.

What is the Stairs issue you speak of?

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by Brazil
hmm...that's sorta like giving SuperStrenght figures mini-TK ability.

I haven't read a Comic Book in 25 years, are superheros throwing each other into battle on a regular basis these days?

If that's become comic commonplace I suppose it should be modeled. If it happened once in issue #128 of a Hulk&spiderman team-up comic, then it's probably not nessesary to model it in HeroClix.

Even if you don't use the fastball special as an example, superheroes have been throwing supervillians for decades and vice versa.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by Brazil
<<don't forget that the perplexed sentinel thing was played wrong. you cannot perplex the same number more than once per turn. those are the rules.>>

Where is this in the rules?

As per the FAQ, you CAN stack perplex. So we are in the right on this one. If you couldn't stack it, I doubt this thread would even be a third as long as it is now.

[warden]

Originally posted by Brazil
1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.

The focus of the argument seems to be on Perplex. A problem with the suggestion that it only work on opponent's characters is that it would tend to nerf the game. It's usually best to perplex the damage stat because this has the smallest range of values and when each side does this to their hitters, you would find that they couldn't hurt each other effectively. The game would thus be slowed down and decided by a comparatively narrow margin. That wouldn't be good - the game is supposed to be decided within 45 minutes of play.

It may be that Perplex started out as you describe and was changed in response to playtesting. That would explain why its effect doesn't seem to fit the name.

Stopping Perplex from stacking gets to the point better by curtailing excessive usage. And it appears that some players already think that this is the rule.

Andrew

[GrayWar]

shut up Brazil go be righteous in MTG or some other #### game

[jedigeof]

Shin you quoted Brazil quoting some one else.

Last time I looked fanboy#1 Super Skrull was a taxi. It doesn't take a very high IQ to throw all the Skrulls together and play.

As for the fast ball special. Wolvey has a steel skeleton & regeneration. If you fastballed someone like Pyro you'd have a fireball special.

[jedigeof]

Well Graywar I can see from your grammer that MTG must have been very hard for you to understand.

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by jedigeof
Last time I looked fanboy#1 Super Skrull was a taxi. It doesn't take a very high IQ to throw all the Skrulls together and play.

Just the sheer oddness of that statement. You would spend 100 someodd points for a taxi? Wasp, Shadowcat, Vulture, Doombot, Iceman... those are examples of taxi charecters. Super Skrull is a hitter. Did anyone suggest throwing skrulls together is an example of grand strat? No, it's just fun.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by jedigeof
Shin you quoted Brazil quoting some one else.

Last time I looked fanboy#1 Super Skrull was a taxi. It doesn't take a very high IQ to throw all the Skrulls together and play.

As for the fast ball special. Wolvey has a steel skeleton & regeneration. If you fastballed someone like Pyro you'd have a fireball special.

Ok, I don't know where this came from but let me respond.

First, I know I quoted Brazil quoting someone else. I was responding to Brazil's statement. You can stack perplex.

Super Skrull is more than just a taxi, he's one of the best figures in the game. If all you use him for is a taxi then you're wasting him. He is a monster of an opponent to face. And it does take intelligence to build a Skrull army. Anyone can lump 300 points together. A clix master will take a Super Skrull, LE's, and REV's and build an effective army to be freared even by those who carelessly wield Flord.

I'm not sure what the fastball special comment's point was supposed to be.

[GrayWar]

not hard at all. just don't like the crowd it attracts

[imafineboy]

addressed to Brazil since you don't just attack people left and right and are willing to have a discussion:

<<At what point did I ever say or even suggest that the majority of people wanted these changes.>>

I felt that was what you implied in your very first post with phrases like:

<<have caused many people headaches and caused numorous people to complain about the game>>

<<that so many people complain about>>


I felt like those implied that you thought you were in the majority. I shouldn't be told that I'm wrong for wanting to play the game in its current incarnation.

I also have a problem with:

<<lost fun back to the game>>

The game has basically had the same rules from the begining barring FAQ alterations and clairfication. HC never became NOT FUN for me, or 'I believe' many of the other people here. There is nothing wrong with playing your own way, I make up rules and try them out all the time, and I have tried playing yours. I don't find them to be beneficial to the game. They're different, yes; not better (in my opinion). How many other people have tried Brazil's rules? I obviously can't read every post in this thread to find out, so what do people who HAVE played them, think they do to the game?

[DCFan#1]

Shin and PaxZRake are correct. I only used Super Skrull to taxi once, and that was to carry Raksor down off the roof as part of a running shot energy explosion. Raksor followed up Super Skrulls EE with an EE of his own. My opponent didn't even see it coming. He was trying to key on a group of Skrulls in my starting area (decoy). Next turn I pushed both Super Skrull and Raksor to EE again. That was four clicks to four different characters. The game was pretty much over at that point. Oh man! Was that fun!

-Rich

[thejew]

brazil. i wish you were an anti war protester. the game aside, you seem to have a passion and tenacity to really stand up for what you believe in, often taking it so far as to play into dcfan's hands when he makes little jabs at you.

you're better than that. keep it up, and learn to ignore those less than you.

[Super_Member]

Ouch, noone likes DCFan#done. I hate to say it, but your opponent did suck if he wasn't aware of SuperSkrull. Superskrull is the only threat in the Skrull army, as he is the only one with the ability to run and shoot(for one click unless he is taxing someone.) If your opponent didn't see it coming, he sucked, and I will leave it at that. And with your obvious cheap houserule;) you had an advantage. It balanced odds in your favor because as I had said earlier. It is one action per one hundred points. You were able to move a larger percentage of your force per turn than you would have normally. When you got 8 or 9 skrulls, the house rule would favor you more than the other person if he had say 4 heros. Kidding aside, your rule did slightly favor you though.

Dax and DCFan, it is pretty lame that you have to point out other's spelling errors as you once had kornk1d basically arguing on your side once. You guys didn't care about spelling errors then. :cross-eye

DCFan are you aware that Dax only registered a month before me?

[shin-goji]

Super_Member, an opponent does not have to suck to lose to an all skrull army. Skrulls are great snipers. With three LE's, two of which have EE, you can mop up large numbers of opposing figures. With more figures than your opponent, you can force your opponent to push his figures, and can tie them up from hitting the Super Skrull while he clears. I think you really underestimate the power of a scrub army.

[darius_dax1]

I thought we could use a little reminder about what Brazil would like to see hapen to the game. I will give my reasons for disagreeing with him after each of his points.
Originally posted by Brazil
Dear Wizkids, this game has gotten a little out of hand with the cheap perplexers, Outwitters, and the Taxi situation that so many people complain about, also the no Running shot - RCE thing, and RCE on the whole is a problem.

This is your opinion. Everybody in my clix group does not have a problem with these things. I have even spoken with several clixers not in my group and they also do not have a problem with these things.

All of the problems I've mentioned have caused many people headaches and caused numorous people to complain about the game, while other people take advantage of these rules to manipulate things to get what many people consider Cheesy wins.

'What many people consider' is not a correct statement based on statistical information. It is an overstatement just like someone else saying that a majority of players don't want the rules to be changed. What exactly is a cheesy win? If the rules of the game were followed and there was no cheating, a win could not be cheesy. Everybody who plays Hero Clix takes advantage of the rules in one way or another. This goes for every game ever.

I have some suggestions for rule changes which could return some of the strategy and lost fun back to the game.

Again, this is mostly YOUR opinion, you are speaking waaay too generally here. Rules changes will not return neither strategy nor fun to the game. I have fun playing the game now and I use strategy every time I play. I even CHANGE my strategy when it is needed.

1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.

PERPLEX has not ruined the game for me nor many of the others that I have talked to. This is again an opinion. Your rule change would greatly enhance PERPLEX beyond it's current capabilities. Not to mention that it would also add another level of difficulty and record keeping to a simple game. How are you going to remember which movement or attack values you perplexed and by how much? Have you thought of how your perplex change would affect games with more than 2 players? I also think that you are centering on the PERPLEX versus target wording of the power. Just because PERPLEX targets a friendly figure doesn't mean that the opposing figure won't be affected by the perplexing. It is not always a direct result, when used as a support, PERPLEX has an indirect effect on the opposing figure.

2> Outwit - Outwit is by far too powerful. For 27 points Black Panther can reduce a 146 point Juggernaut into a figure worth about half that. What's this supposed to simulate anyway? How do you trick Juggernaught into not having tough skin? Rule change "Outwit can't effect any superpower on the Defense number.

Last time I checked, OUTWIT doesn't change the cost of a figure. OUTWIT simulates the advance planning, strategy, tactics, and overall intelligence of the comic book character the game piece is based on. You don't trick Juggernaut into not having tough skin, you trick him into tiring himself out, walking into a trap, taking off his helmet. It isn't always a matter of trickery either, that would be covered better under PERPLEX. This rules change would effect more than TOUGHNESS, INVULNERABILITY, and IMPERVIOUS. It would also affect these powers: WILLPOWER, MASTERMIND, ENERGY SHIELD/DEFLECTION, SUPER SENSES, BARRIER, DEFEND, and REGENERATION. Are you also saying that OUTWIT should not have an effect on these powers either? Then OUTWIT would truly be worth less than it is now. It would be crippled.

3> The cheesyness of the Taxi. There has been much talk about changing the Taxi rules. The ones I've heard involved reducing the taxi capabilities or making so a carried figure can't attack. Although this would be more realistic, it would remove some of the aggressiveness of the game. It would be bad to turn this game into a defensive game. So how about this: "All figures can move half their movement and do ranged or hand to hand combat." Perhaps some penatlies should be added like if a figure moves and shoots or moves and attacks they suffer -1 on their attack dice roll.

Again with the opinions. What exactly would you then do with a Vulture? It would sit at the bottom of the toybox collecting dust. Taxiing is done in the comics. It should be ble to be done in Heroclix. Your fix would reduce the effectiveness of FLIGHT, RUNNING SHOT, CHARGE, ranged attacks, ENERGY SHIELD/DEFLECTION, STEALTH, RANGED COMBAT EXPERT, WILLPOWER, HYPERSONIC SPEED, PERPLEX, BATMAN TEAM ABILITY, GREEN LANTERN CORPS TEAM ABILITY, JLA TEAM ABILITY, AVENGERS TEAM ABILITY, and THE BROTHERHOODTEAM ABILITY

3a> If this rule is addopted then Running shot and Charge have just been reduced in effectiveness, so I propose these two changes to those two powers: "A figure with Running shot can move their full movement ie RUNNING shot, not walking shot, and still fire, without suffering the proposed -1 on their attack roll." Same thing with Charge, allowing them to attack after moving their full movement, only I would enhance Charge further, by giving the attacker a +1 on damage for any successful Charge attack. This represents the extra damage suffered from someone hitting someone at full speed.

These changes would overpower CHARGE and RUNNING SHOT as well as make the powers listed in response to #3 less effective.

4> RCE is a problem all by itself, Firelord, Kang and Quasar are proof of that. I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value....that or maybe a balance, like +1 attack & +1 Damage instead of it's current +2 damage. These rules don't help Quasar much, but at least tone down Firelord and Bullseye. Frankly the best solution would be to make RCA +1 or +2 on the attack value, and create new dials for Firelord, Kang and Quasar.

The 'New Dial' solution will not work. You have even stated that earlier in this thread. Using the rest of your solution would greatly enhance TOUGHNESS, IMPERVIOUS, and INVULNERABILITY, as well as greatly reduce the effectiveness of RANGED COMBAT EXPERT. This turns into a more defensive game and as you stated earlier, you wouldn't like that.

5> Incapacitiate - Incapacitate is cool, but not as useful as the amount figures with it seem to be getting charged for the ability. If you want to make Incapacitate useful, then how about allowing an incapacitate figure to do their normal damage when incapacitating. Currently this superpower seems to be one of the most expensive, yet is seldom used.

Yet again with the opinions. I, and many others, use INCAPACITATE often. This power is very valuable. Using INCAPACITATE, you are able to steal turns from your opponent. While you are able to operate on your turn all your opponent can do on his is either push and damage his figures or pass his turn to remove action tokens. In a game where you have a limited amount of actions per turn, INCAPACITATE is an extremely useful power. If it is an 'expensive' power it is so with good reason.

6> Leadership - There are many real expensive figures with Leadership...Apocalypse....133 points with leadership...when is he ever going to use his leadership...at 133 points they don't have enough points left to make a big team where a lack of actions is an issue. How about making leadership allow you to add+1 to any die roll for your team for the turn. OR give you 1 reroll any turn that you make a successful leadership roll....this would be useful.

Leadership is very useful, especially in low point games. Gaing extra actions in a game where you have a limited amount of actions per turn can mean the difference between winning and losing. Leadership does make a litle less sense on higher cost figures, but then your team would normally consist of some type of henchmen and you would need extra actions anyway.

7> Lame team abilities - MOE team ability ... this is useless.

This may be the lamest team ability ever, but maybe it will be made better with the release of the next Marvel set. We will have to wait and see on this one.

7a> overpowerful team abilities, the Wildcard teams Doom and Spiderman lead to some crazy wildcard abuse/maipulation by the cleverer players. Why do you think Doombots are so overused currently in the tournament scene. Remove the wildcard ability and give them some regular ability...if you're out of ideas e-mail me and I'll make some up....but wildcard is just too powerful.

Are you complaining about this because you are not clever? I think wildcard should be handed out sparingly or at least be justified in the cost of the figure, which I think is happening. I don't believe that manipulating this ability to your benefit should be categorized as abuse. This team ability is very useful and should be treated with respect. But overall wildcard team abilities are not too powerful.

8> Stealth - Stealth is okay, but I have a problem with a ruling concerning stealth. If a stealthed superhero is hiding in the square with the gumball machine, and he's hiding behind it, shouldn't someone be able to target the gunball machine to shoot it? I mean obviously if someone is hiding behind an object, then that object should be visible.

Once the gumball machine is targeted and destroyed hindering terrain markers are placed there rendering the stealthed character invisible as he was before. The best solution to this is to get a character with SUPER STRENGTH in b2b contact and pick the object up, exposing stealthed character to all rangers, and smack him/her with the gumball machine. This action has removed hindering terrain without leaving more terrain in it's place, damaged an opponent's figure, and opened up a stelthed figure to ranged attacks.

[PantherPriest]

I said I would never post to this thread, mainly because it's silly and it has 57 freakin pages.

However skrulls are the best generic fig in the game so far. Me and my friend had a battle of the shmoes (thug, shield agents etc.) we included one of every generic in IC (it was a while ago) and skrulls dominated the game. Range of 8, that's all I have to say.

[Super_Member]

I was refering to this statement by DCFan

I only used Super Skrull to taxi once, and that was to carry Raksor down off the roof as part of a running shot energy explosion. Raksor followed up Super Skrulls EE with an EE of his own. My opponent didn't even see it coming.

All the opponent had to do is remember to stay 12 squares away from Super Skrull. Either that or don't be surprised when SuperSkrull hits you from 12 squares away. If his oppenent didn't know he was 12 squares away from SuperSkrull, then he wasn't a quality oppenent IMO. I assume the opponent didn't know he was 12 squares away because DCFan said "My oppenent didn't even see it coming."

[shin-goji]

Range of 8, damage of 2, chance of not being hit [poor man's super senses], and swarming your enemy, all for a few cheap points!

[shin-goji]

We really should move the Skrull topic over to a new thread. This thread is long enough without my help.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Super_Member
Ouch, noone likes DCFan#done.

Dax and DCFan, it is pretty lame that you have to point out other's spelling errors as you once had kornk1d basically arguing on your side once. You guys didn't care about spelling errors then. :cross-eye

DCFan are you aware that Dax only registered a month before me?

And the trolling continues. What spelling errors have I pointed out? Could you give me an example?

Why is it that every time you post to defend someone that doesn't need defending or to scold someone for flamming, you yourself do exactly what you are accusing others of? Doesn't that make you just as bad as you claim DCFan and I are? Insulting someone who (you think) is insulting is still an insult. I swear you must suffer from multiple personality disorder. That is not an insult, just an observation.

[shin-goji]

Just let it go. I quit letting this thread bother me and I don't try to open my wrists with a styrofoam cup anymore.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by shin-goji
Just let it go. I quit letting this thread bother me and I don't try to open my wrists with a styrofoam cup anymore.

The power of Clix compels me! The power of Clix compels me!:confused:

[bobo7312]

WHAT EVER PURPOSE AND DISCUTION THE POST SERVED IS DEAD 57 PAGES IS BEYOND THE LOVE OF GOD KILL THIS THREAD

[MindsEnd]

We just need 146 more come guy's pull your wieght. :)

[DCFan#1]

My point with the Skrull team was to prove that a taxi system isn't necessary to win in this game. Neither is perplex or outwit. Sure, I ONLY took second place, but the proof is there. If Super_Member and Brazil want to continue the childish bashing without substance, then be my guest. It only proves the original point of this thread wrong.

I still think it's sad that some people can't break out of the mold where they think they need outwit, perplex and a taxi to win. I guess this year will prove them all wrong. I have a VERY strong feeling people will be surprised when the conventions start, and unconvential teams start winning.

Shin- I'd love to get a Skrull thread started. Let me know what you want to do. If anyone else is interested, either PM me or Shin, and we'll get it going.

-Rich

[thjimmy]

Mindsend suggested we only need 146 more pages to make this thread reaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyy annoying.

I'm up to the challenge.

Here are a few re-posts to keep us on track:

-Skrulls are dangerous

-Some people just like to complain

-I put Homer Simspon on a Vet Doom base to lead my 600 point army next Tuesday.

-Raw cookie dough is tasty

[Brazil]

Shin Goji,
The stairs thing you asked about is the rule that when you hit the location on the stairs where the elevations technically switch from Grounded to Elevated, at that point two figures (who don't posses Leap/climb, or Ranged attacks), can't do close combat. This means that Harley Quinn could stand at the top of the stairs and Bane couldn't attack her if he was standing right next to her, and could move to her square. This seems an awefully unrealistic rule, and also gives an added tactical bonus to elevated terrain against non-range,non-leap climbers. Anywhere else on the Stairs they could fight, but at that 1 magical spot Harley is totally safe from Bane, and Bane can't get past her onto the Roof....or down from the roof if the locations are reversed.

[MindsEnd]

I was asked to respond to a post that was made earlier so I will post my opinion on the questions in question. I Edited to post into the perplex part which I forgot to come back to.

1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.

:)[/COLOR]I think that perplex can unbalance a game. My reasoning is that there should be some kinda stacking limit. This idea won't ruin the game and throw it totally outta whack. Like an example that Brazil said, a paramedic should not have the ability to drop Juggernaut in one hit simply because she's got X number of perplexers next to her. Yes we could get into the debate about a smart player wouldn't do this but the people we are talking about are the one's that don't give a #### about anyone or anything except getting the LE. What do you think the new guy at the venue is gonna think when some uses perplex and wipes out his favorite buiser in one hit. I'm thinking he might now decide to come back and quite possible quit playing with the little plastic figs we like so much.

2> Outwit - Outwit is by far too powerful. For 27 points Black Panther can reduce a 146 point Juggernaut into a figure worth about half that. What's this supposed to simulate anyway? How do you trick Juggernaught into not having tough skin? Rule change "Outwit can't effect any superpower on the Defense number.

I don't think that this needs to be fixed.

3> The cheesyness of the Taxi. There has been much talk about changing the Taxi rules. The ones I've heard involved reducing the taxi capabilities or making so a carried figure can't attack. Although this would be more realistic, it would remove some of the aggressiveness of the game. It would be bad to turn this game into a defensive game. So how about this: "All figures can move half their movement and do ranged or hand to hand combat." Perhaps some penatlies should be added like if a figure moves and shoots or moves and attacks they suffer -1 on their attack dice roll.

Again I don't think that this needs to be fixed.

3a> If this rule is addopted then Running shot and Charge have just been reduced in effectiveness, so I propose these two changes to those two powers: "A figure with Running shot can move their full movement ie RUNNING shot, not walking shot, and still fire, without suffering the proposed -1 on their attack roll." Same thing with Charge, allowing them to attack after moving their full movement, only I would enhance Charge further, by giving the attacker a +1 on damage for any successful Charge attack. This represents the extra damage suffered from someone hitting someone at full speed.

One more time I don't think that this needs to be fixed.
4> RCE is a problem all by itself, Firelord, Kang and Quasar are proof of that. I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value....that or maybe a balance, like +1 attack & +1 Damage instead of it's current +2 damage. These rules don't help Quasar much, but at least tone down Firelord and Bullseye. Frankly the best solution would be to make RCA +1 or +2 on the attack value, and create new dials for Firelord, Kang and Quasar.

My beef with this has to do with the flying figures having the ability to still use it in base to base. The other figures have it and it's probably the same point cost so why should fliers be extra special add on to the RCE ability.

5> Incapacitiate - Incapacitate is cool, but not as useful as the amount figures with it seem to be getting charged for the ability. If you want to make Incapacitate useful, then how about allowing an incapacitate figure to do their normal damage when incapacitating. Currently this superpower seems to be one of the most expensive, yet is seldom used.

Boy here I go again I don't think this needs to be fixed.

6> Leadership - There are many real expensive figures with Leadership...Apocalypse....133 points with leadership...when is he ever going to use his leadership...at 133 points they don't have enough points left to make a big team where a lack of actions is an issue. How about making leadership allow you to add+1 to any die roll for your team for the turn. OR give you 1 reroll any turn that you make a successful leadership roll....this would be useful.

agreed it seems kinda excessive on the high point figures.

7> Lame team abilities - MOE team ability ... this is useless.

Just have to think a little harder on how to use it but yeah seems kinda uselss.

7a> overpowerful team abilities, the Wildcard teams Doom and Spiderman lead to some crazy wildcard abuse/maipulation by the cleverer players. Why do you think Doombots are so overused currently in the tournament scene. Remove the wildcard ability and give them some regular ability...if you're out of ideas e-mail me and I'll make some up....but wildcard is just too powerful.


I don't think that this needs to be fixed but does seem to be overused alot.

8> Stealth - Stealth is okay, but I have a problem with a ruling concerning stealth. If a stealthed superhero is hiding in the square with the gumball machine, and he's hiding behind it, shouldn't someone be able to target the gunball machine to shoot it? I mean obviously if someone is hiding behind an object, then that object should be visible.

I understand how this works and I'm fine with it but I'd sure like to be able to destroy the object without it turning into hindering terrain. A guy can wish can't he :)

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by MindsEnd
4> RCE is a problem all by itself, Firelord, Kang and Quasar are proof of that. I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value....that or maybe a balance, like +1 attack & +1 Damage instead of it's current +2 damage. These rules don't help Quasar much, but at least tone down Firelord and Bullseye. Frankly the best solution would be to make RCA +1 or +2 on the attack value, and create new dials for Firelord, Kang and Quasar.

My beef with this has to do with the flying figures having the ability to still use it in base to base. The other figures have it and it's probably the same point cost so why should fliers be extra special add on to the RCE ability.

This poses an interesting question. Is flight, a power, being used with RCE? If that is the case, RCE should not work with flight due to the wording of RCE.

[MindsEnd]

The current ruling is that fliers in btb can still use there RCE to do full damage which means if you waste a turn basing Firelord he can still hit you for 5 while you wait for your next turn so you can attempt to hit him with a lose attack number and more than likely ####py damage.

Oh Dax if you didn't see it I edited my previous post to add my opinion on perplex since I forgot to add it

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by MindsEnd
I was asked to respond to a post that was made earlier so I will post my opinion on the questions in question. I Edited to post into the perplex part which I forgot to come back to.

1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.

:)[/COLOR]I think that perplex can unbalance a game. My reasoning is that there should be some kinda stacking limit. This idea won't ruin the game and throw it totally outta whack. Like an example that Brazil said, a paramedic should not have the ability to drop Juggernaut in one hit simply because she's got X number of perplexers next to her. Yes we could get into the debate about a smart player wouldn't do this but the people we are talking about are the one's that don't give a #### about anyone or anything except getting the LE. What do you think the new guy at the venue is gonna think when some uses perplex and wipes out his favorite buiser in one hit. I'm thinking he might now decide to come back and quite possible quit playing with the little plastic figs we like so much.

The effect of a paramedic dropping Juggernaut could be described as the paramedic was able to mix a nasty sleepy drug cocktail and, with the help of the con-artists distracting/confusing Juggernaut, tossed said cocktail into Juggy's mouth. Drugs take effect and BAM! Juggernaut is out cold.

[MindsEnd]

The paramedic example is a great idea of an example of how to explain how it could happen but you know Marvel did the samething with Spiderman with the Clone Saga and we all know how well that went over. :)

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by MindsEnd
The current ruling is that fliers in btb can still use there RCE to do full damage which means if you waste a turn basing Firelord he can still hit you for 5 while you wait for your next turn so you can attempt to hit him with a lose attack number and more than likely ####py damage.

Maybe this ruling should be changed. Notice I said ruling, not rules. I think that a simple FAQ fix is all that would be needed for this. I believe that it would still be okay for a flying ranger to use other ranged powers (like Energy Explosion)in base to base, but RCE may be a problem.

Oh Dax if you didn't see it I edited my previous post to add my opinion on perplex since I forgot to add it

I caught that. Thanks.

[MindsEnd]

Since fliers with RCE spend the same amount of points that have a flier with RCE has an advantage over fliers without it and ground figures that do have RCE. Since I'm assuming the cost for RCE is the same point cost for all figures as I'm assuming that flight is the same cost for all fliers. This would mean that fliers with RCE have a special bonus that I'm assuming again that this one thing that flying RCEer's can do are not factored into their cost.

[Brazil]

Darius (good post) Here's some replys:
<<This is your opinion. Everybody in my clix group does not have a problem with these things.>>
This was in referance to RCE and Running shot not working together. If a figure, when it was assigned it's figure cost, was charged less than the full price for the two powers RCE and Running Shot. (since he has to choose which one to use, so presumably they will get used half as often as on a figure who doesn't have to choose) Then I have no problem with the way things are. However, looking at Cyclops, it appears as though he was charged full price for both superpowers, making him less efficient for the points as someone like Bullseye.

<<Everybody who plays Hero Clix takes advantage of the rules in one way or another.>>
True, but let's fix the rules to make this more difficult to find an exploitable loophole. What fun would this game be if someone discovered some cheesey combination that wins 90% of the time, unless played against a similar team? The tournament scene would get dominated by that strategy and it would loose diverseness and color. Just like how IC major tourney's were dominated by Firelord teams. I went to a bunch of local constructed Tournies in the IC only era, and a firelord team won just about every tournament played. It was either join em, or join em if you wanted to win the tourney. And it got real boring facing Firelord every week.
Since explosion, I'm suspecting that every week, you'll now be facing Con Artist abuse teams...and they will dominate the tournament scene if something isn't done about them.

<<PERPLEX has not ruined the game for me nor many of the others that I have talked to. This is again an opinion. Your rule change would greatly enhance PERPLEX beyond it's current capabilities.>>
Perhaps my solution isn't the best one. But something needs to be done. And as long as we're fixing it, why not make it realistic as well. Quit allowing it to affect teammates, and be used to boost powers. Think of something, but the way it is now Con Artists are abusive.


<<Last time I checked, OUTWIT doesn't change the cost of a figure.>>
You missed my point. I didn't mean it would change the printed cost of the figure. I meant that it would change that figures worth. V. Jugs may be worth the 146 points you pay to have him on your team in some games, but when your opponent has a 27 point BP on his team, your Juggernaut isn't worth more than about 80 points tactically, because his main means of defense is totally nutralized by a 27 point figure devalueing him.

<<The 'New Dial' solution will not work. >>
I'm not so sure. It would work fine, but it is unlikely Wizkids will do it. It's a pitty too. I like the Incapacitate rules just the way they are. HOWEVER wizkids overestimated the value of incapacitate when they assigned point costs to figures. They charged way too much for it. It's not as effective as the person who set up their point costing formula seems to think. The X-Men team ability also seems to fall into this catagory.


<<What exactly would you then do with a Vulture? It would sit at the bottom of the toybox collecting dust. >> Vulture still has a combat usefulness. And my idea doesn't completely do away with Taxiing...you can still do it. It simply reduces the NEED for taxis by giving you options to play without them. Right now 90% of the competative teams use taxis. That is the case of a rule dictating play style too much. Yes it will change things. For better for worse? I dunno. Jon Lassiter hinted that a Taxi change is being considered....do you have a better idea?

<<Leadership is very useful, especially in low point games.>>
You're totally wrong. In a 200 point game, if you have a 150 point figure with Leadership, this means that the whole what? 50 points worth of figures you have left will have 2 actions on turns the "Big guy" moves and 3 actions on the off turns. How many actions do you need for 50 points worth of figures?
The rules allow for 1 action per 100 points, I hope an average of 2.5 actions per 50 points isn't inconveniencing you in any way. That's 5 times the number of actions per build points the game allows for.

<<This may be the lamest team ability ever, but maybe it will be made better with the release of the next Marvel set. We will have to wait and see on this one.>>
So how long do the current MOE figure have to have a practically useless team ability? How many sets do the MOE have to suck for? Will all the current MOE Range combat specialists EVER BENEFIT from the MOE team ability? Why don't we fix it now?? Kang bites, and with the MOE team power he'd have to suck even more to ever use it. He does 1 damage in B2B combat.

<<Are you complaining about this because you are not clever?>> Stop, just stop. How many times are you going to accuse me of not being a good player? And of hating the game? I win tournaments all the time, I have a big pile of LEs. I love this game. I think the basic concept of the game is great. It's simple and fast which is great. But there are some rules I don't like. I suspect almost everyone has at least one rule in this game they don't like, or that they think if it were changed the game would be better. Your comment I quoted had to do with the Wildcard team abilities. I abuse the wildcard team abilities as much as anybody. I have many many teams using Doombots and them for assorted wildcard abuses. The figure I use most often (until con artists came along) is the LE Doombot...and I abuse his wildcard liberally. It's not that I can't do it. It's because I recognize the easy with which it can and does get used, and I think it makes the figures who have it too powerful for their cost. This is why everyone and their dog are making teams with Doombots on them since CT came out.


<<Once the gumball machine is targeted and destroyed hindering terrain markers are placed there rendering the stealthed character invisible as he was before. The best solution to this is to get a character with SUPER STRENGTH in b2b contact and pick the object up, exposing stealthed character to all rangers, and smack him/her with the gumball machine.>>
You have perplexed me with your aruement. So let's see. I have a figure like Bullseye out on the board. He can shoot this turn. Now my opponet has BP hiding behing the gumball machine. He also has Magnito standing behind Black Panther. Now I can't see BP, because he's hiding behind the gumball machine. I can't see Magnito, because he's hiding behind a figure I can't see. And I can't destroy the Gumball machine (to prevent Magnito from using it against me on his next turn), because the figure I can't see is obscuring my view of the Gumball machine that's causing all this havok in the first place. So your solution would be....what?? Oh I see, when my opponent looks away, I'm supposed to swap Thing for Bullseye, then charge BP and (illegally) pick up the Gumball machine when I get adjacent to him and hit him with it. OR did you mean in Thing's charge action he's supposed to move adjacent to BP, pick up the Gumball machine, roll for Breakaway, move another square, then attack him. (that would be legal.)

[Oldben]

Hey All,

So, here it is, my first post ever at hcrealms! Oh the glory and the rapture. After reading some of this thread, it seems utterly too convoluted for Wizkids to ever sift through. However, I still would like to throw in my 2 cents, so here I go-

1st, some background-
I'm 26, a medstudent in Utah, have helped playtest tactical strat. games before (Diskwars, give it up! ;), etc. and play with mostly other medstudents and grad students. We don't play at tourneys, and actually use our clix at least 50% of the time for a Marvel Classic RPG I run. 'Nuff Said

As for the rules- Overall, I like them. I would agree that they make for a decent strategy game. They don't, however, do a great job of simulating a hero game. For me and my group, we are more into the hero thing. For strategy, I would honestly rather play chess or go. Anyway, I see this basic distinction- playing for strat. and tactics, or playing for the heroic fun of it, as perhaps being the dividing line between a lot of you (us?)(this is not to say that strat. players don't have fun, and heroic players don't like strat., just what you most enjoy the game for)
So, as a heroic player with a heroic group, here are the house rules we usually play with-

Charge/Running Shot: Everyone has these 2 powers, if the fig. already has these abilities, then they can move their full movement and still attack/shoot.

Taxis: Extremely subjective, only characters that could actually carry aloft someone can do it. That obviously precludes the Wasp, but Rogue, Hobgoblin, IceMan, Ultron, Iron Man, etc. could. Another, more objective way of changing this rule is only allowing superstrong (those with the actual power) fliers to taxi

Anyway, as these are house rules, you can obviously see that they wouldn't work to apply to the 'official' rules as they devalue certain powers/figures (hypersonic speed comes to mind, although Nightcrawler still kicks *** and takes names in our games) but they work well for us. I just wish that when they were originally putting heroclix together, they would have changed the rules a bit more from mageknight to be more along this vein.

Toodles

[hisshers]

Is this game now called Hero-cries?

[MindsEnd]

Hey hisshers either add to the discuss or stick your head back in your butt and take a hike.

Or go to your doctor and ask to have this procedure done
88302 V25.2

[Brazil]

Yes, but it's spelled with a "Z" HeroCriz.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Brazil
This was in referance to RCE and Running shot not working together. If a figure, when it was assigned it's figure cost, was charged less than the full price for the two powers RCE and Running Shot. (since he has to choose which one to use, so presumably they will get used half as often as on a figure who doesn't have to choose) Then I have no problem with the way things are. However, looking at Cyclops, it appears as though he was charged full price for both superpowers, making him less efficient for the points as someone like Bullseye.

Not true. It would be a strategical choice to use RCE vs RS. If cyclops needs to jockey into position before he can determine LOF then RCE would be totally worthless because he couldn't even see his target. But RS may enable him to get an initial shot off before blasting away with RCE as he gets into a. range and/or b. LOF.

True, but let's fix the rules to make this more difficult to find an exploitable loophole. What fun would this game be if someone discovered some cheesey combination that wins 90% of the time, unless played against a similar team? The tournament scene would get dominated by that strategy and it would loose diverseness and color. Just like how IC major tourney's were dominated by Firelord teams. I went to a bunch of local constructed Tournies in the IC only era, and a firelord team won just about every tournament played. It was either join em, or join em if you wanted to win the tourney. And it got real boring facing Firelord every week.
Since explosion, I'm suspecting that every week, you'll now be facing Con Artist abuse teams...and they will dominate the tournament scene if something isn't done about them.

So are you admitting that the Firelord problem was fixed? With the release of each new set, old strategies may be rendered obsolete. Now we have to wait for the Con-Artist 'problem' to be fixed.

Perhaps my solution isn't the best one. But something needs to be done. And as long as we're fixing it, why not make it realistic as well. Quit allowing it to affect teammates, and be used to boost powers. Think of something, but the way it is now Con Artists are abusive.

Again, I would have to say this is an opinion shared by you and Mindsend. Also, see the above response to loopholes. The game will fix itself.

You missed my point. I didn't mean it would change the printed cost of the figure. I meant that it would change that figures worth. V. Jugs may be worth the 146 points you pay to have him on your team in some games, but when your opponent has a 27 point BP on his team, your Juggernaut isn't worth more than about 80 points tactically, because his main means of defense is totally nutralized by a 27 point figure devalueing him.

Well, we can't really say this to be a certainty. Your assessment of his tactical value dropped because I have a rookie BP on my team. Well my rookie BP has either gained tactical value because now I will have an easier time dealing with his INV or BP has lost value because I have to tie him up in dealing with Juggernaut. I don't think I would want tactical value used as a determining factor in the price of the figures because the tactical value will be a situational value that cannot be placed on said figure because of the team you are facing. There are too many variables to do what you propose.

I'm not so sure. It would work fine, but it is unlikely Wizkids will do it. It's a pitty too. I like the Incapacitate rules just the way they are. HOWEVER wizkids overestimated the value of incapacitate when they assigned point costs to figures. They charged way too much for it. It's not as effective as the person who set up their point costing formula seems to think. The X-Men team ability also seems to fall into this catagory.

Again an opinion that we will never agree upon. Stealing moves from your opponent will win you the game. It is a very valuable power.

Vulture still has a combat usefulness. And my idea doesn't completely do away with Taxiing...you can still do it. It simply reduces the NEED for taxis by giving you options to play without them. Right now 90% of the competative teams use taxis. That is the case of a rule dictating play style too much. Yes it will change things. For better for worse? I dunno. Jon Lassiter hinted that a Taxi change is being considered....do you have a better idea?

I haven't really considered this because I do not believe it to be a problem. A team that consists of 1/3 to 1/2 taxies is not really a good idea. Too much support, not enough big weapons. A team like this is easier to beat. Try playing a traditional FF 200 point team. There is only 1 taxi and it works well that way. I never field more than 1 or 2 per team. I sometimes do not use taxies at all.

You're totally wrong. In a 200 point game, if you have a 150 point figure with Leadership, this means that the whole what? 50 points worth of figures you have left will have 2 actions on turns the "Big guy" moves and 3 actions on the off turns. How many actions do you need for 50 points worth of figures?
The rules allow for 1 action per 100 points, I hope an average of 2.5 actions per 50 points isn't inconveniencing you in any way. That's 5 times the number of actions per build points the game allows for.

A 200 point team with a 150 point bruiser, 4 rookie SHIELD (44 points) Snipers and 1 rookie Thug (6 points). Having the extra move could get the thug to block LOF, or an extra attack with the snipers, or with 2 snipers assisting the big guy with a ranged attack for 2 extra points of damage versus 1.

So how long do the current MOE figure have to have a practically useless team ability? How many sets do the MOE have to suck for? Will all the current MOE Range combat specialists EVER BENEFIT from the MOE team ability? Why don't we fix it now?? Kang bites, and with the MOE team power he'd have to suck even more to ever use it. He does 1 damage in B2B combat.

Like I said, let's wait and see. Maybe we just need to really try to use this ability more often while testing teams at home. Maybe the key here is wildcards.

Stop, just stop. How many times are you going to accuse me of not being a good player? And of hating the game? I win tournaments all the time, I have a big pile of LEs. I love this game. I think the basic concept of the game is great. It's simple and fast which is great. But there are some rules I don't like. I suspect almost everyone has at least one rule in this game they don't like, or that they think if it were changed the game would be better. Your comment I quoted had to do with the Wildcard team abilities. I abuse the wildcard team abilities as much as anybody. I have many many teams using Doombots and them for assorted wildcard abuses. The figure I use most often (until con artists came along) is the LE Doombot...and I abuse