View Full Version : Let's Fix this game.
Dear Wizkids, this game has gotten a little out of hand with the cheap perplexers, Outwitters, and the Taxi situation that so many people complain about, also the no Running shot - RCE thing, and RCE on the whole is a problem.
All of the problems I've mentioned have caused many people headaches and caused numorous people to complain about the game, while other people take advantage of these rules to manipulate things to get what many people consider Cheesy wins.
I have some suggestions for rule changes which could return some of the strategy and lost fun back to the game.
1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.
2> Outwit - Outwit is by far too powerful. For 27 points Black Panther can reduce a 146 point Juggernaut into a figure worth about half that. What's this supposed to simulate anyway? How do you trick Juggernaught into not having tough skin? Rule change "Outwit can't effect any superpower on the Defense number.
3> The cheesyness of the Taxi. There has been much talk about changing the Taxi rules. The ones I've heard involved reducing the taxi capabilities or making so a carried figure can't attack. Although this would be more realistic, it would remove some of the aggressiveness of the game. It would be bad to turn this game into a defensive game. So how about this: "All figures can move half their movement and do ranged or hand to hand combat." Perhaps some penatlies should be added like if a figure moves and shoots or moves and attacks they suffer -1 on their attack dice roll.
3a> If this rule is addopted then Running shot and Charge have just been reduced in effectiveness, so I propose these two changes to those two powers: "A figure with Running shot can move their full movement ie RUNNING shot, not walking shot, and still fire, without suffering the proposed -1 on their attack roll." Same thing with Charge, allowing them to attack after moving their full movement, only I would enhance Charge further, by giving the attacker a +1 on damage for any successful Charge attack. This represents the extra damage suffered from someone hitting someone at full speed.
4> RCE is a problem all by itself, Firelord, Kang and Quasar are proof of that. I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value....that or maybe a balance, like +1 attack & +1 Damage instead of it's current +2 damage. These rules don't help Quasar much, but at least tone down Firelord and Bullseye. Frankly the best solution would be to make RCA +1 or +2 on the attack value, and create new dials for Firelord, Kang and Quasar.
5> Incapacitiate - Incapacitate is cool, but not as useful as the amount figures with it seem to be getting charged for the ability. If you want to make Incapacitate useful, then how about allowing an incapacitate figure to do their normal damage when incapacitating. Currently this superpower seems to be one of the most expensive, yet is seldom used.
6> Leadership - There are many real expensive figures with Leadership...Apocalypse....133 points with leadership...when is he ever going to use his leadership...at 133 points they don't have enough points left to make a big team where a lack of actions is an issue. How about making leadership allow you to add+1 to any die roll for your team for the turn. OR give you 1 reroll any turn that you make a successful leadership roll....this would be useful.
7> Lame team abilities - MOE team ability ... this is useless.
7a> overpowerful team abilities, the Wildcard teams Doom and Spiderman lead to some crazy wildcard abuse/maipulation by the cleverer players. Why do you think Doombots are so overused currently in the tournament scene. Remove the wildcard ability and give them some regular ability...if you're out of ideas e-mail me and I'll make some up....but wildcard is just too powerful.
8> Stealth - Stealth is okay, but I have a problem with a ruling concerning stealth. If a stealthed superhero is hiding in the square with the gumball machine, and he's hiding behind it, shouldn't someone be able to target the gunball machine to shoot it? I mean obviously if someone is hiding behind an object, then that object should be visible.
TychesCoin
03/27/2003, 19:37
I have to say I disagree with alot of your points. And the ones I agree with I disagree with your proposed fixes. I also realize I'm not the intended audience for this.
First I agree that taxiing needs work. I wouldn't try fixing it allowing all characters to move and attack in the same turn. I think its a fairly drastic change. I do think it this needs looking into though. Currrently taxiing is an incredibly important part of game play. I think a change in how it works would be welcome. I also think it would make a better game. And make figure with battle fury more playable if taxiing is no longer an essential part of all teams.
Secondly I think outwit could use some work. And as you point out it needs it specifically against the defensive powers. I think completely eliminating its use against those powers would go to far. I like the idea of an expiration on damage effect. Like perplex works sort of. I also think reducing outwit's use against defensive power already adds to incapacitate's usefulness since it becomes more of a balanced option for dealing with inv/toughness
Third, I do not think incapacitate has reached its full potential. Incapacitate on a flurry figure or one with multiple targets is far more useful than one with a single target. I think the potential exists for a figure to cause incapacitate to be one of the more dangerous powers. For instance if they someday release a 3-target incapactiate figure with will power and good range.
Anyway while I do not agree with much of what you say, I do agree the game isn't perfect and could use some work,.
Jason Blood
03/27/2003, 19:44
RCE is only cheesy on people with high damage
Rce only works on ranged attacks so it would cost less for the rce character to have 1 with rce than it would for a character to have 3 damage
It can be outwited making it less of a threat than people think it is
RCE and CCE are actually not as powerful as most people think
I_Blame_You
03/27/2003, 19:50
:rolleyes: It appears "Game-Fix" is as cheap as perplex these days.
Kaitouace
03/27/2003, 19:53
Plus there's at least one character (Shield Sniper) that has RCE with 0 damage. So changing the rule that way would make that piece almost totally unusable.
Yeah RCE needs some work, I can't say that I have a great solution for that. As I said in my original post, the best solution there would be for Wizkids to release a sticker sheet so people can fix the dials of the screwed up RCE figures, like Firelord, Quasar, and Kang. When Wizkids descided to change RCE from working like BCF to a flat +2 damage, they sure caused havok by not going back and fixing the design of those RCE figures. Quasar and Kang are about useless for their points, and Firelord is...well, I don't want to turn this into yet another Firelord is Broken thread.
VooDoo Child
03/27/2003, 20:13
Personally I think the comics are full of perplexing and outwitting. I agree with some of your points, mainly 3, 3.a, 5, 7, and 7.a.
I think there are some other Powers that need reviewing too;
Battle Fury-it’s more detrimental then anything; maybe make it so that they are immune to outwitted AND perplex. Or at the very least can’t be effected by Psychic Blast either.
Smoke Cloud- I’d just like to see no action token needed.
Plasticity- I’d like to have a change of elevation component like Leap and climb.
Super Strength- I’d like characters with SS be able to throw others, like a half distance (5) Telekinesis.
Cartman_Clix
03/27/2003, 20:14
---Outwit is a pet peeve of mine. It should definitly be limited in some capacity. Perhaps if it didn't work against toughness or invulerability for example. Juggernaut should not lose his invlnerability to Batman.
---Taxi abilities. Leave them as is. It adds an aggresive nature and a statigic aspect. Are there problems? Yes. The Wasp carrying the Blob?? It's not right but you can't fix everything. There really is no justifiable reason to change it.
Other than that I think the game could really benefit from new powers or team abilities. I think the game really works well the way it is. Just because an experienced player has found a unique way to use a power doesn't mean it needs to be changed for the gaming impaired.
lancelot
03/27/2003, 20:20
fix what? nothing's wrong at all, you guys are just losing to superior strategy. heck, i just beat a team with 2 outwitters and having none on mine, just BASH AWAY at those outwitters, they dont usually have high clicks of life. as for perplexers, shoot at them once or twice, they re flailing for life. my only peeves are not being able to carry someone that s carrying something, but as it looks, TK might fix that for DC in Cosmic Justice :)
k0rnkid15
03/27/2003, 20:20
well u know wat i say wen i read threads like this? WAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!:mad:
skeevo666
03/27/2003, 20:25
yeah, another "Let's fix the game" thread. Yawn . . .
jedigeof
03/27/2003, 21:20
There are members that still don't grasp the basics. I like to think of them as Sir Knowanots. You know the guys that come to every thread with a great big question mark on their chest. Changing any think might prove dangerous. As to cause mass confusion. If you find this game to difficult you might want to start with something like Mech Warrior.
Uh, man. Not this again. Brazil, give it a rest.
taxi is powerful but it's just a part of gameplay. The move and attack fix wouldn't work too well.
I really don't agree with "fixing" the problem, but an interesting option would be to make the taxi only able to carry figures of lower point values. This would make many flying characters all but unusable but it's better than the other suggestions I've heard.
Again, I don't think it's broke, so don't fix it.
Isn't it funny that whenever outwit is said to be broken it's always the players that are losing their INV/IMP on their favorite figure. I guess outwit doesn't work on other powers.
Let's see the pattern here, Juggernaut, Superman, Thor, shouldn't be beaten by x figure.
scowlingone
03/27/2003, 21:54
I'm with DCFan.
Brazil, you do this about once a month. Please stop.
Even if I agreed with you on any of your points -- and I don't -- I'd still hope that you'd find another windmill to tilt at.
You see scowlingone, and dc fan, this post is in the "Dear Wizkids" section. In hopes that they would read it. I didn't post it here for your benefit....in fact DC Fan, didn't you see that I started this thread.....why are you reading it? Everytime I post you jump on my threads and start in with unsubstantiated comments. You're like a bugger on the end of my finger, no matter how hard I flick you, you just won't go away. If you don't like my posts, feel free to not read them. If you have intellegent comments or even your opinion on the subject, feel free to post, but if you and scowlingone are just going to post things like this in all my threads, I'd prefer if you just posted elsewhere....make up your own topic, have a thought of your own...it won't hurt.
scowlingone
03/27/2003, 22:13
It doesn't matter where one posts. Posting is an implicit invitation for others to reply.
You have the right to express your preference to not hear from people who disagree with the idea of you making comments on game balance,
By the same token, we have the right to express our preference that you give it up already.
Scowlingone is right:
"You have the right to express your preference to not hear from people who disagree with the idea of you making comments on game balance. By the same token, we have the right to express our preference that you give it up already."
I don't believe anyone has agreed with you in this thread yet Brazil. Why are you picking on the two of us?
-Rich
dolemite199
03/27/2003, 22:44
I have played many CCG, RPG, and minatures games. Never in that period have I seen so many people voice their opinoin on how a game should be fixed, or changed like it is with HC. Magic, D&D, Hero System, Gurps, Battletech, and other games do not have their players "screaming" for change like HC does. Maybe there is some validity to peoples arguments about why they feel certain aspects of HC rules and game mechanics should be changed. However, I have not had any problems with HC rules or game mechanics. I think HC as a whole is completely ok. However, there are few things that I would like to see amended, i.e. no victory points being awarded for survivng figures and better judge enforcement for stalhing/cheating. As for super powers, well, they are not a problem for me or the local game group I play with. I am just not really understanding why there are so many people who are on the "change HC" bandwagon. I have played in a multitude of tournaments. Not one time have I ever thought a figure or super power is to unbalanced. I simply move past it and try to overcome any advantages my opponent has or thinks he/she has. I say, bring on the Firelords, Black Panthers, and Con Artists. You need more than just figures to win at HC. Strategy, paitence, cunning, and tactics are what wins HC games. Changing the rules will only cause the "power gamer" to find a new avenue of abuse to win. Trust me on this guys. Looking at the problems this game has, then saying that changing it will fix these problems only hurts us all. Do you really want to see some of the proposed rules changes that Brazil has suggested come to fruition. Because not only will the "power gamer" suffer, but so will you. We all have to play with the same rules right? Why should we want something that stiffles some types of players if it does the exact same thing to us? All of you should ask yourselves that.
dolemite99 wrote:
"I am just not really understanding why there are so many people who are on the "change HC" bandwagon."
Because that vocal 1% isn't any good, and they need a way to level the playing field. They collect comics, and thus believe they need to be a part of this game, one way or another. It's sad really.
Look, DC Fan in the last thread of mine you "Participated in", I complained that "there needed to be an Objects rule to keep them from being used to unfair advantage in marquee events." You were as usual one of the voices arguing that I was a moron. Well as you can see in the last FAQ that particular rule was ammended making it so both players had to agree in order for them to be brought into play. So...maybe someone at Wizkids does read our posts, or maybe it was just a co-incedence that that rule was changed in the next FAQ after my post, but certainly you can't argue that the people at Wizkids ageed with my point.
And Dolemite, you said that Magic doesn't have people screeming for changes like HC does...well that's not true at all. Players find flaws in the game, report them, and because WOTC cares about maintaining game balance, they restrict or ban cards regularly that cause game imballance. And on occation they even change the rules of how the game works in an attempt to make the game better. They seem to do this every time a new edition comes out. They tweak the rules one way or another. It's not done so that Advanced player have loopholes to exploit, it's done quite the opposite, to remove loopholes and exploitable problems with the game.
I'm pointing out exploitable problems, just like I did with the "Unfair Objects" situation.
And DC Fan, for your information, in the last round of marquee tournaments I played in 4 Marquee tournaments in the Seattle area, which averaged around 20 players per tournament, I took 3rd, 2nd, 1st and 1st. I'm not a poor HC player. JacinB who was making fun of me along with you in the last thread has now lost 2 strait forum games to me, KOing a total of 1 of my figures in two games.
CooperMcP
03/27/2003, 23:22
quit complaining, Brazil! that goes for anyone who wants to change the game, too.
sure, some parts of the game seem annnoying at times, but remember, the rules apply to ALL players. you think outwit screws you over? exploit it yourself!
also, as someone said previously, it takes some strategy to dodge these aspects of the game. show some balls!
MindsEnd
03/27/2003, 23:40
I can personally vouch for Brazil he doesn't know #### about current comic continuity. :)
Check your last thread again Brazil. You wanted to BAN objects from tournament events. Wizkids only added clarity to the FAQ. Nothing was changed. Your crying and complaining about how objects are "unfair" had nothing to do with it.
Anyone can claim that they win tournaments, which you seem to do quite a bit. Trying to back up your claims with some forum game results? Come on Brazil. I'm good at Madden Football on PS2, that doesn't make me an NFL star. Clinging to forum games as though they are the real thing is, like I've said before, just plain sad.
-Rich
Don't Fix what isn't Broke
I don't know squat about current comic continuity, I never claimed I did. I haven't read a comic in around 25 years.
Hey Mind, good hearing from you. Say, could you pick up two bottles of that paint solvent for me and bring them to the tournament Friday, I'll pay you for them then. Much appreciated if you could...I went to two other hobby shops looking for it to no avil....I was trying to avoid getting lost in Puyallup.
And CooperMcP, it's not about fairness between players, the outwit problems makes certain figures very weak. There are many high point cost figures which get really crippled and hence become not worth the points...hence not worth playing the way outwit currently works. If outwit were ammended as per my suggestion then figures which rely on invulnerability as their means of defence would once again become competative and playable in a competative enviornment and thus would make for a more diverse and figure rich tournament enviornment for everybody....otherwise the game will become stale as everyone will play the same dozen figures (Firelord, Invisible Girl, Doombots, Wasp, Bullseye, Black Panther, Con Artists, Nightcrawler, Ultron, Vulture, ...etc, the usual suspects) Why would someone play Juggernaugt or Thanos with so many cheap black panther's out there? What is your solution CooperMcP. From your reply, it sounds like you're saying I should just shut up and quit playing those figures and play Black Panther like everyone else. Well, I think that's hurting the game variety and I'm posting this, in the "Dear Wizkids" section in hopes they will read it and consider these points, if they haven't done so already.
DoomX when is the last time you won a tournament playing Kang, or Constrictor, or Hobgoblin, or one of the IC versions of R/E/V Spiderman, or Juggernaut, or pretty much any figure with incapacitate on his dial?
It's pretty rare isn't it? The reason is because these figures aren't very balanced payability wise....hence "broken" Broken - might not be the best word, Overcosted is probably the correct word, though technically I don't think you'll find that word in Websters.
jcastick
03/28/2003, 00:14
THe only thing i would like to say about all of this is the following...... I would really hate to see Heroclix turn the way of Magic:The Gathering..... with so many ruling changes, Errata, banned and restricted cards......to me, this took all the fun out of the game! Sure, i dont see any problem in reporting some things that will fix major problems......but i would hate to see EVERYTHING be reported, There has to be alot of strategy put into this game, not alot of rulings to make things easy.......
sorry, just my two cents.....
MindsEnd
03/28/2003, 00:17
Maybe as a suggestion they should make Outwit cost an action token?
What are you talking about jcastick? Go the way of Magic? Check Wizkids web site, there's already about 20 pages of FAQ, and hardly a tournament goes by that I play in where yet another unusual situation that isn't covered in the rules comes up. Sure the "Roll a dice" rule for ambiguous situations was cool....but is that really the way things should be handled? Kudos to Tsannik and the other Official Judges who patrol HC realms giving official rulings on many of the situations that arrise. Don't confuse yourself jcastick into thinking that the rules are "perfect and never change", ask Tsannik or some of the other judges who field the plethora of daily questions from confused people how "Perfect and Stable" the rules are? How many people reading this post remember when the FAQ said that you needed LOS for Barrier....well, the current FAQ sez just the opposite. Not only do the rules for this game change, but sometimes they change to the complete polar opposite on some topics. The rules for this game are anything but perfect. But they are better than they were when the game first came out...they're making progress...I'm just trying to do my part to guide them along.
jcastick
03/28/2003, 00:45
Thats exactly my point Brazil....20 pages of FAQ.....
when i first started playing and for a little while, all i needed was the rule book! I really dont want to have to go through 20 pages of rulings and such just to play a game......
Heroclix to me is, you buy the figs, learn what they can do , and play.... simple and fun.... not having to read over ruling after ruling.... And i never said they were perfect....and i never disagreed with you, IM just saying....I dont want to have to quit another game due to TOO many things i had to remember to play a single figure....thats all.... I think you helping them along is a good thing, dont get me wrong!!
I never meant any ill feelings........
Also, i no where near the best player in the world.....or anywhere as a matter of fact.....but if there are already 20 for heroclix....id be afraid to go to a tournament.....since i dont even know the game that well, thats whats frustrating about it.......seemed like everytime i caught up, i was actually totally behind......
dolemite199
03/28/2003, 00:53
Brazil,
My example of Magic is indeed correct. Your examples of players bringing forth information to WOTC is partially correct. Unlike Magic, HC does not have a million dollar pro tour circut. When WOTC releases a set of cards they cannot possibly play test those cards with the thousands of cards from previous sets they have released. Furthermore, WOTC and the DCI (Governing body of Magic tournaments) is extremely good at monitoring cards to find out whether or not they should be restricted or banned. This is a completely proactive process on their part. Very little player opinion is invloved in this. Maybe my comparison of magic to HC was not concrete, but there are definately more people who play HC and ##### about it, then there are magic players that ##### about magic rulings and game mechanics. Another factor is that there is a large amount of money involved in competative magic, so people power gaming is a socially acceptable practice in magic at that particular level of play because everyone at those torunaments is trying win $30,000 dollars. HC, on the other hand, does not offer $30,000 dollars to the winner of a marquee. Also, the last rules overhaul for magic ocurred over four years ago with the release of "sixth edition". This rules change really did not change anything, it just provided a more clearer picture for how things work/resolve in a magic game. WOTC, the DCI, and Oracle also make subtle rules additions because each stand alone set has at least two new abilities that are introduced. You can't say WOTC is constanly changing rulings when all they are doing is adding the new card abilities to the lready lenghty FAQ.
Could the out cry for rules/game mechanics changes in HC be due to the fact that is there such a small prize for tournaments (LE figures) that you feel the rules should dummy down the game so the power gamer is on a level playing field with those who just play for fun? I think that is the underlying meaning to all of this.
I am not insulting anyones play skill when I say that. It just seems that the "pro-rules change" groups argument is that outwit, RCE, taxing, Firelord, and perplex are unfair. I am sorry to say that "unfair" is not a valid argument. Who is it "unfair" too, you? This "unfair" argument, or "unbalanced" argument is simply a copout. If you can provide empherical evidence to support these claims, then maybe we can come to a middle-ground on this. But the prospect of that occurring is not feasible. Outwit, Perplex, Firelord, Taxing, and RCE are just extensions of the HC game. They by no means define it. You argue that the torunament enviorment is cluttered with the above mentioned things. And you are mostly correct in that assumption. However, I have played in torunaments where the was no one who played Firelord, only one guy used a BP out of the twenty participants, and perplex was no were to be seen. If HC were at the extreme competative level that other collectable games are at, then maybe a rules overhaul would be justified. But HC is not at this point. The "pro-rules change" group needs to accept this and move on from it.
domino33
03/28/2003, 01:05
While I don't really agree with the changes that Brazil proposes, I'd encourage everyone not to dismiss them out of hand. MY WISH is that WizKids would hire a rules writer and write a proper rulebook. The aforementioned 20 page FAQ is reason enough for this. Surely, there are some old Avalon Hill guys sitting around looking for work? :)
My head is STILL swimming after reading the discussion on the WixKids' Judges forum about two lightning bolt Mind Control...and the nebulous nature of what a character can and can't do during a Hypersonic attack. Plus, the reported clarification allowing characters with Super Strength to pick up an object during ANY move action (Hulk grabs dumpster while Regenerating) and no comment about how this would affect picking up figures? Ugh...head...hurts.
:cry:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Here's a tissue to wipe your tears with.
This game can be played without changing anything. All of you crybabies are just upset because you can't win or you were beat by a tactic you didn't foresee. Grow the f**k up. Don't sit here and whine about outwit and perplex. Take those characters out first. Or at least make your opponent fight to keep them alive. Do you think they built this game without realizing at least what they were doing to some point. Wizkids may not be perfect but at least they don't make characters and then ban them like magic did. And beings there is no "official" tournament standings just freaking play to have fun and try to win some le's in the process. I hate all of the bs you whining little b**ches put out everyday.
dolemite199
03/28/2003, 01:15
bbufka,
You are as sublte as a train!
does that mean you got the point?
Agentofthebat
03/28/2003, 01:27
Okay...where do I begin? Changing the game...the game is broken. Okay, from my understanding is that Wizkids does employ playtesting and there always looking for more.
Think of HC like chess...why re-invent the wheel??
Also what is this about putting limits on Outwit so poor helpless figures like the Juggernaut won't suffer and be made useless. Umm.. last I checked, Juggernaut dishes between 3-6 clicks a pop starting with an 11-13 attack and a starting defense of either 17 or 18. So what if it loses Invulnerability, you still gotta hit the 17 or 18 and it's got at least 8 click of health. Oh and did I mention that it was immune to mind control. Now that doesn't sound helpless to me.
Anyway, I say whatever.....just my 2 cents
dolemite199
03/28/2003, 01:41
bbufka,
Yes, I got the point. Although, I am arguing for your side, I still understand your statement. I just didn't use as much venom as you, that's all.
darius_dax1
03/28/2003, 01:51
I have a few more rules changes I'd like to offer:
Inulverability is too weak. My dear Juggernaut should never take any damage because nothing stops the Juggernaut.
Leadership is also too weak. It should be an automatic success and the player should be able to control his opponents characters due to his charisma and commanding presence.
Telekenisis. TK should be able to move buildings and use them in an attack that automatically hit and do 10 clix of damage.
Phasing should also be used as an attack. A phasing character should be able to make an attack roll and pull the hearts right out of the opposing forces. This would be automatic knockout.
Energy Explosion should also be an automatic knockout and be represented in the game by snapping the figure right off the base.
Battle Fury should give the character the ability to make one close combat attack versus every opposing figure on the map no matter the distance.
Masters of Evil team ability should be changed to: At any time during the game if 2 MOE are adjacent then add 1 MOE character from your collection to the game. This would include wild card teams. This could only be performed once during your turn.
Avengers and Brotherhood team ability should be expanded to include attacks as well as moves.
Just a few of my mods to the game. I hope this works for everybody. I think they are the best rules change proposals yet!
heroclixguru
03/28/2003, 02:08
Dear Wizkids,
Please disregard all suggestions made by the flaming lunatic known as Brazil. These suggestions are simply dumb. Unfortunately, whiners are compelled to create dumb suggestions. I enjoy the game the way it is.
Kind Regards.
darius_dax1
03/28/2003, 02:13
I say take a poll!
Originally posted by Brazil
or pretty much any figure with incapacitate on his dial?
You mean like Batman, Nightwing, Wasp, Super Skrull, Mandroid Armor or Dr. Doom? :p
I think you need to be a little more specific rather than generalizing. When you start making blanket statements, especially ones that can be easily disproven, you do more damage to your credibility.
TychesCoin summed up a good amount of my feelings towards your basic proposal: I have to say I disagree with alot of your points. And the ones I agree with I disagree with your proposed fixes. I also realize I'm not the intended audience for this.
1) Perplex is more flexible, certainly, than Enhancement. But there are several situations where Enhancement works better (Energy Explosion, Multi-target attacks, multiple adjacent attackers).
2) Yes, Outwit is powerful, especially against defensive powers in a high-point game. Anyone playing high-point games has lost a figure to the "outwit dogpile." But we've tried just about every 'limiting' house-rule for Outwit, and none of them have worked right. We still haven't tried the Perplex-like 'until target takes damage,' though. And Outwit doesn't just represent 'tricking someone.' It also represents knowing someone's Achilles Heel, amazing fortune or scientific gadgetry. If Black Panther can shut down all of Mephisto's powers long enough to rip out his heart, or mess with the software in Iron Man's armor is it really beyond possibility that he could have some sort of gadget that could temporarily allow attacks to bypass Juggernaut's invulnerable skin?
3) Playtested and it massively changes the game. This would have very far-reaching domino effects.
4) 20 RCE characters (pre-Xplosion, 29 post) and 2-3 of them have a problem (I disagree w/Firelord), so we should completely change the rule? I fail to see the logic here.
5) You do realize that this would make Batman & Nightwing the power pieces in the game, right? "Oh, I'll do 3 damage to you AND give you an action token."
6) The only figure with leadership I've had be redundant was Superman (V & LE). The characters with it have it as an accurate representation of their abilities, and in higher point games it gets use.
7) Useless might be an exaggeration for MOE/IL, but it is certainly expensive for the lack of advantage it grants. The biggest problem is that most MOE/IL figures are ranged attackers, so a free close-combat attack actually puts them at a disadvantage. And if you hate wildcards now, I can't wait to see you go off once we get Legionnaires.
8) Since when can't you shoot the object a stealthed figure is hiding behind or in? Is this a recent ruling? You always used to be able to. The problem is that it does nothing to help you. When you destroy an object by attacking it, you leave a rubble marker, which is hindering terrain. Which they are still hidden in/by. Unless you are talking about Energy Explosion, which explicitly states it cannot be used against objects, in part because you don't roll to hit an object.
good morning Brazil it is nice to see you again. You make many observations about the game. But the thing is what are your observations based on? Numerouse people complaining about the game.
Where do these complaints come from? It is this quesiton I want you to ask yourself. If they come from this site then read on to what I have to say. If they come from several people from several locations who have little/nothing to do with this site then disregard what I have to say.
This site: People on this site complain a lot I will assume you are more intelegent than a retarded monkey and you have observed this. The thing about this site is do we represent an actual cross seciton of people who play this game? Especaily the people who post here often. I would like to venture a no twords that question. I think that this site represents a small number of shrill uber fanboy fanatics. I will enven include myself in this category. We rang from the levels of people who are obsessive aobut the game, to obsessive about comics. Almost bi-monthly there are raging arguements between people who win and people who play for fun. Marvel vs DC arguments abound constantly, and the very few voices of reason are downed out by people like me who throw gas on the fire. For all our grumbling, whining, pointless flaming, b ickering, insults thrown at jon l, insults thrown at magester, and people threatening to quit we are all still here. We are all still having hte very same discussions that we did before. And our lives...correction our gaming time goes on. What's the point? So we have lots of cheap perplex, so we have some rce, so running shot is a uber spiffy power, people still play the game and they are having fun. People still buy thier cases and celebrate thier good pulls and shake thier fists at the bad. Expansions come out and, to use your words they twist the game all to heck. That is the point of an expansion. It is suppose to take the old game and make it shiney and new. It is suppose to change it so that we would never dream of not using figures from it. If it failed to do this why would you buy anything from the new expansion. Cheese wins. Yes it always has and it always will. Wether you are playing Magic, Netrunner, D20, Vampire, Starwars, Super Smash Brothers Melee, Marvel vs Capcom 2, or Warhammer cheese is always going to win. That's why it is cheesy. You can never erase cheese or get rid of it. It will always be there. I think instead of trying to change the game every time a new expansion comes out you should roll with the puntches and thruve just like everyone else dose.
I mean is the game ruined from Clobbering time? People predicted it would be, and it isn't. Xplosion won't ruin the game. The game grows, changes, and evolves. Instead of trying to bring it back to the way it was, you should adapt with it.
This is just my suggestion. Although I do love reading your posts and responding to them. However your ideas make a game that isn't heroclix. SP while they are fun to discuss I doubt that they will ever be implemented. Cheap perplex? Goodie then maybe some other figgures that havn't seen play in a while will make it to the table. Still keep on trucking.
Also are you going to do a balanced play chart? They are always an interesting thing to look at. Oddly enough I think I am thier biggest supporter, it is fun to use vairent rules once inna while.
skeevo666
03/28/2003, 04:10
Originally posted by Comte
Xplosion won't ruin the game. The game grows, changes, and evolves. Instead of trying to bring it back to the way it was, you should adapt with it.
Yeah, Chuck Darwin knew a thing or two . . .
autoconx
03/28/2003, 04:13
i stopped reading the first post after i got half way through it cause i got frustrated.......if you dont like that game dont play.....or get better :p . the rules stand and i doubt will ever be changed. you cant hate RCE just because people who arent very good at the game over use firelord....i guess youll be only happy when every character has no abilities and doesnt fly.....
joferma0
03/28/2003, 04:18
Seems you're downgrading some abilities only to make others cheeser.
Game is good as it is. Rules are the same for all. Stop complaining and try play for fun. I had a only-fun game last night and I played with the FF. Reed Richards is lame, but had a great time.
Or get better. Have you thought to use barrier against RCE? Any power can be neutralized with at least other power.
The only change in rules I'd incorporate is no dupes except generics.
IMO.
GroovyBoy
03/28/2003, 04:29
I'm sorry, but anybody who's deathly afraid of Black Panther making their Juggernaut or Thor totally useless needs a reality check. Black Panther? Black Panther?!?! He has Outwit for like two clicks. Sure, he has Stealth, but who says you have to willingly keep your character within 10 squares OR LOS of him at all times (doesn't anybody use terrain as barriers anymore?!?!?)?
The DC Universe is a little different, where everybody and their Great Aunt, Twice-Removed has Outwit; but in that case, it's so pervasive that Outwit strategy is part of the landscape (think anti-magic fields in D+D).
[Now, if you wanna complain about Outwit in cross-universe games, yell at the wall, since it's technically not allowed in tournaments and you can reap your own whirlwind about what you do in your own time or what some venues may have as house rules. Nyah nyah!]
So as much as we (the HCRealms crowd) represent a cross section of the people who play this game, then people like Brazil represent less than 1% of the ENTIRE HC community. My statements before have read that the vocal minority (usually 1% of all the HC players) seem to think their ideas are the end all be all, and the rules should change to accomodate them. Thinking about this again, it's actually less than 1%. They are even less significant than I originally thought.
So, letters like this in the "Dear Wizkids" section that ramble on and on with complaint after compaint will pretty much amount to nothing ultimately. Most all of us realize that Rookie Black Panther is just that...a 27 point rookie figure. Get over it Brazil. We're all sorry your Juggernaut isn't the machine you wanted him in every game you play.
-Rich
PaxZRake
03/28/2003, 10:27
I just wanna know one thing: how the heck can you call Quasar broken? Kang even? Nobody ever uses these guys, well I use Kang, but that's because I like him from the comics. That and well, Quas kind of sucks, and Kang cost a whole lot.
HUh, I wans't aware that the game was broken. must be just me I guess
Ahoy, here come the thread pitrates. All you guys are seriously angry individuals. Like freaking vultures smelling some roadkill. One of you pecks then everyone jumps in for the feast. I don't necissarily agree with Brazil's points, but he should be able to ####ing express them without being assaulted with personal attacks and senseless commentary. Bunch of #######s. Seriously. The lot of you's.
drgnoftyr
03/28/2003, 11:34
hey darius i am going to play a game with your rule changes i just wanna see the look on the guys face when i snap the nightcrawler of his base and say you've just been hit by ultron's devestator attack keep up the posts man they are always funny honestly guys if you dont like the powers for the new sets dont buy them stick to the orriginal
I_Blame_You
03/28/2003, 11:56
Originally posted by MindsEnd
Maybe as a suggestion they should make Outwit cost an action token?
I'm ALL for this suggestion.
Originally posted by Brazil
1> Perplex - cheap perplexers are twisting the game all to heck, now with the new 11 point perplexers things are really going to get out of hand. How about this simple rule change - "Perplex" only works on opposing figures. I mean wasn't Perplex supposed to simulate confusing your opponent? It's current most common use is to enhance teammates. Don't we already have a power called "enhance"? It seems to me that Perplex currently works better than "Enhance". If you do this, you should probably allow the effects of Perplex to extend through your opponent's turn, so that perplexing down his movement, damage, or attack value will have some effect.
Originally posted by Brazil
2> Outwit - Outwit is by far too powerful. For 27 points Black Panther can reduce a 146 point Juggernaut into a figure worth about half that. What's this supposed to simulate anyway? How do you trick Juggernaught into not having tough skin? Rule change "Outwit can't effect any superpower on the Defense number.
Sorry ... this one I completely disagree with. It simulates the intelligence of a character being able to nullify or bypass a characters powers. For example ... Darksied using kryptonite to bypass Superman's Impervious. How does spiderman beat the Juggernaut or any of the tough guys he's fought that have high natural defenses ... he does something smart. Its disappointing when your few guys capable of 3 damage are taken out and then a character with INV mops them up.
Originally posted by Brazil
3> The cheesyness of the Taxi. There has been much talk about changing the Taxi rules. The ones I've heard involved reducing the taxi capabilities or making so a carried figure can't attack. Although this would be more realistic, it would remove some of the aggressiveness of the game. It would be bad to turn this game into a defensive game. So how about this: "All figures can move half their movement and do ranged or hand to hand combat." Perhaps some penatlies should be added like if a figure moves and shoots or moves and attacks they suffer -1 on their attack dice roll.
Disagree ... think of the huge advantage flight should provide. Taxi's add strategy and show how a bunch of weaker Avengers can use teamwork to beat a single powerful foe like Ultron.
Originally posted by Brazil
3a> If this rule is addopted then Running shot and Charge have just been reduced in effectiveness, so I propose these two changes to those two powers: "A figure with Running shot can move their full movement ie RUNNING shot, not walking shot, and still fire, without suffering the proposed -1 on their attack roll." Same thing with Charge, allowing them to attack after moving their full movement, only I would enhance Charge further, by giving the attacker a +1 on damage for any successful Charge attack. This represents the extra damage suffered from someone hitting someone at full speed.
These powers work well as is. You want to get rid of Taxi's yet increase the range of running shot and charge ... I think that would make those powers way too powerful.
Originally posted by Brazil
4> RCE is a problem all by itself, Firelord, Kang and Quasar are proof of that. I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value....that or maybe a balance, like +1 attack & +1 Damage instead of it's current +2 damage. These rules don't help Quasar much, but at least tone down Firelord and Bullseye. Frankly the best solution would be to make RCA +1 or +2 on the attack value, and create new dials for Firelord, Kang and Quasar.
Ranged Combat Expert is powerful but works since it can't be used with other powers. With this restriction the +1 attack really doesn't amount to much.
Originally posted by Brazil
5> Incapacitiate - Incapacitate is cool, but not as useful as the amount figures with it seem to be getting charged for the ability. If you want to make Incapacitate useful, then how about allowing an incapacitate figure to do their normal damage when incapacitating. Currently this superpower seems to be one of the most expensive, yet is seldom used.
Interesting idea ....
Originally posted by Brazil
6> Leadership - There are many real expensive figures with Leadership...Apocalypse....133 points with leadership...when is he ever going to use his leadership...at 133 points they don't have enough points left to make a big team where a lack of actions is an issue. How about making leadership allow you to add+1 to any die roll for your team for the turn. OR give you 1 reroll any turn that you make a successful leadership roll....this would be useful.
I agree that leadership is useless with high cost characters.
Originally posted by Brazil
7> Lame team abilities - MOE team ability ... this is useless.
7a> overpowerful team abilities, the Wildcard teams Doom and Spiderman lead to some crazy wildcard abuse/maipulation by the cleverer players. Why do you think Doombots are so overused currently in the tournament scene. Remove the wildcard ability and give them some regular ability...if you're out of ideas e-mail me and I'll make some up....but wildcard is just too powerful.
I like the Wildcard abilities ...it allows for some intersting strategies.
Originally posted by Brazil
8> Stealth - Stealth is okay, but I have a problem with a ruling concerning stealth. If a stealthed superhero is hiding in the square with the gumball machine, and he's hiding behind it, shouldn't someone be able to target the gunball machine to shoot it? I mean obviously if someone is hiding behind an object, then that object should be visible.
Ah ... but part of the idea is that the enemy doesn't even know he's there behind to shoot the gumball machine in the first place.
Thunderbolts
03/28/2003, 11:59
Brazil,
I assure you some people actually read these suggestions with interest. I'm not going to shoot any of them down even though I disagree with some. I personally abhor the overabundance of fliers in the metagame (of course flying units should have an advantage over grounded ones, but they're negating that via taxi), but it's the rules, so adapt to them. Perplex is rather stupidly described, and it makes no logical sense for a hooker to be able to increase a friend's killing power (make your own jokes), but they're the rules.
Leadership on large point figs is the major gripe I agree with though. Especially on Superman or Doom points-level figs. Luckily Doom doesn't have much of it (sorry Supes).
What I think most of you are missing from my post is that I don't think the game is unfair twards players....since the same rules apply to both players, it is totally fair. What I think the game is unfair twards is different figures. Wizkids releases a few peices that make other figures obsolete, then people spend money to buy a big pile of pieces and most of them never get used because they're not competative. Cheap outwit, trashes figures which rely on a single superpower, especially so for defense, since the opponent of such a piece can move his attackers and outwitter into position and strike without the opponent being able to react to it. Outwitting someone's attack capabilities isn't nearly as effective as the figures owner can manuver to try to avoid this situation.
I'm not whining because I loose or win, I'm whinning because I want ALL OF THE PIECES to be competative. When Invisible Girl came out she lowered the value of figures with low attack values. When PB came out...(of course I know it was the first set), it lowered the value of figures who rely on superpowers for defense, when the Con Artists came out they are lowering the value of all high costed figures, because now small 20-30 point wienie figures can dish out 6-12 points of damage in a single attack.
In Grinner's post he defended LEADERSHIP on high priced figures by saying it's "an accurate representation of their abilities". Well how about applying this logic to PERPLEX. About 90% of it's game usage seems to involve using PERPLEX to augment teammates...making them move further, or attack with a higher percentage, or attack more accurately or from a longer range....none of these things are an accurate representation of PERPLEX. You can PERPLEX a teammate to attack a foe who isn't even in the PERPLEXER's LOS. In what way is this an accurate representation of anything. Could the Riddler trick Bane into being stronger or faster or could he trick Harley Quinn into being able to throw a bomb further? PERPLEX is better at enhancing than ENHANCE. I'm not saying ENHANCE doesn't have it's uses, what I'm saying is PERPLEX is generally more veristile and useful for the pourpose of enhancing the performance of teammates that the superpower who's name is ENHANCE.
Balance figures points costs, or balance rules to that FIGURES don't become obsolete. The current rules and points costs are unfair to FIGURES.
joferma0 wrote -
<<Game is good as it is. Rules are the same for all. Stop complaining and try play for fun. I had a only-fun game last night and I played with the FF. Reed Richards is lame, but had a great time.>>
In arguing against me, you make my point. Why did you say "Reed Richards is lame"??? If he costed 50% less would he still be lame? Or if some of his powers were more effective? That's all I'm saying, fix rules, or fix figures so people don't say things like "Reed Richards is lame". Obviously this guy likes playing the fantastic four, but feels like he isn't playing a competative team because Reed isn't up to competative snuff. Can we fix this? Or maybe everyone should just shut-up, and not try to fix things and live with the fact that some figures suck and some rules are unrealistic, and only a handful of figures are competative in tournaments....then DC Fan would be happy, and everyone would be happy, well except maybe this guy who'd like to play the fantastic four with a competative chance of winning....awe he should just shut up too, he should play the Fantastic Four the way they are and get used to losing more than he wins....eventually he'll come across someone who likes to play Constrictor and Hobgoblin, then he'll have a fighting chance.
How about instead of "fixing" the game, we just "fix" the stupid people who shall remain anonymous that take this game to freakin' seriously they start a threaad called "lets fix this game"
A_Higher_Level
03/28/2003, 14:34
I agree with the part about taking a vote.
If you happen to think the game is so 'borken' that it shouldn't be touched till they get it right, please don't. Contact me, I'll send you a dollar, and you can send me all your figures.
And for those who haven't raised their hand, cause they're not in that category yet, I'll see you at the tournaments!
Originally posted by Brazil
In Grinner's post he defended LEADERSHIP on high priced figures by saying it's "an accurate representation of their abilities". Well how about applying this logic to PERPLEX. About 90% of it's game usage seems to involve using PERPLEX to augment teammates...making them move further, or attack with a higher percentage, or attack more accurately or from a longer range....none of these things are an accurate representation of PERPLEX. You can PERPLEX a teammate to attack a foe who isn't even in the PERPLEXER's LOS. In what way is this an accurate representation of anything. Could the Riddler trick Bane into being stronger or faster or could he trick Harley Quinn into being able to throw a bomb further? PERPLEX is better at enhancing than ENHANCE. I'm not saying ENHANCE doesn't have it's uses, what I'm saying is PERPLEX is generally more veristile and useful for the pourpose of enhancing the performance of teammates that the superpower who's name is ENHANCE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your big problem with Perplex is its name. If it were called something like "Jack of All Trades" or "Share Your Wonderful Toys" most of the complaints you use above would go away. And yes, 90% of Perplex use is to boost your teammates - because aside from dropping your opponents defense it doesn't do anything if you use it on your opponent. But making it useable on your opponents turn would make it very powerful. Imagine your entire team with 0 damage. Your RCE figures with a 1 range. Your slower characters unable to move.
shin-goji
03/28/2003, 16:35
I have to disagree, as usual, with all your points on this, Brazil. The game has not gotten out of hand and is just fine the way it is. I personally have fun playing the game, maybe you just need to switch who you are playing with.
shin-goji
03/28/2003, 16:41
I hat eto say it, my fellow clixers, but if you just tuned in you should probably tune out. This individual, Brazil, has been singing this tune of "Black Panther vs Juggernaut" for months now. We have discussed AND argued with him until we are blue in the face. There are some people that you just can't change their minds, so we should probably move on.
lancelot
03/28/2003, 16:57
man, a good case of functional fixedness...no matter how often you bash brazil over the head about how easily black panther can be KO'd if he was b2b, he s gonna still whine. hmmhmm, he needs a good psychology class and he ll just shut up :)
really, being a DC player and seeing A LOT of outwit, ive still won a majority of my game. heck, my pal had his nightwing lose his outwit on my VERY FIRST TURN. i taxied manbat and bane with my JLA hawkman n booster gold, then taxied bane with manbat, whacked his nightwing silly, no more outwit, even tho his flash had outwit, it s more worthless on flash. so, my point here is, pick your targets carefully, hit those outwitters, then they re pretty much nothing. well, not if he s batman :)
time to tune out, indeed, shin-goji
So what do you guys do? Do you run your Black Panther's out in front of your forces BEFORE you move in to attack an invulnerability figure?
Cuz where I play people don't throw away their PB's like that. They move in to attack with their powerful piece, THEN use Black Panther's free move to move him from his position (in the rear), up to a position, preferably still in the rear, but within 10 and a LOS to the invulnerable piece. Outwit the invulnerability, then they roll their attack ignoring the target's defense. At this point it's too late to do anything about Black Panther...the damage has already been done. He starts in a safe position, and on the same turn you attack he advances to a LOS position, your opponent has no chance to attack PB prior to your strike on the Invulnetable foe. Without Invulnerability, most of these high costed figures drop quickly to a vulnerable point. And the tide of battle has turned. This means that the playable value of these high priced invulnerability figures is lessened by the exhistance of low priced (27point) Outwit figures.
All you people who say BP is easy to KO are on crack. He's only easy to KO if you're going to dive headlong across the battlefield to get B2B with him, ignoring all of your opponent's team between you and BP in order to take out that one 27 point figure.
Jack Squat
03/28/2003, 17:21
Brazil, if you want to go on a crusade to convince WizKids that they should change the rules, I say more power to you. We both know that they want to hear about things that fans of the game don't like. But I don't know why you bother to try and reason with the nitwits who get riled up by this stuff.
I have recently come to the realization that the main reason I love and play Heroclix is because they are Comic book characters. Because, unfortunately the rules are horrible, there is a big disparity in the effectiveness of powers, and for whatever irrelevant reason, the characters are not represented accurately. I have also come to the conclusion that this game is all we have for this genre and I have no choice but to ignore the gross inadequacies of this game to play with my favorite heroes. Granted, with all it's deficiencies, the game is still pretty fun and serviceable. I love the concept and the feel is there. I just feel that it could be much more. The problem as I see it is:
1 - They took a successful game system in Mage Knight and attempted to perform a lateral transfer of most rules (particularly on team builds etc.) - The problem here is that I would estimate that 80%+ of all Mage Knight figures are less than 50 points. A significant number of them MUCH less. This is way different for Heroclix where it's about 50-50. This system of point totals for armies does not work for HC.
2 - They had (I am guessing here) game designers making the figures. If they have a mystical spreadsheet that details costs for them, why not have comic fans do this? People with real knowledge of the characters would have probably decreased the number of misinterpretations made of our favorite heroes/villains.
3- They should have had someone edit and template the rules. As is, the rules are extremely inconsistant and, although helpful, the FAQs are sometimes as unclear. This should still be done.
Even though Heroclix fell a little short as a game, I am assuming it is successful as a business endeavor and isn't that what it's all about?
That's a good point Jack S. I'm not sure why I try to argue with these people. It must be a character flaw.
Thanks man.
skeevo666
03/28/2003, 17:41
Originally posted by Brazil
I'm not sure why I try to argue with these people. It must be a character flaw.
Arguing isn't a character flaw.
Arguing unsuccesfully & repeatedly without success is.
Sadly OnewOrd there may be some truth in what you speak. But I'd like to think it's not all about the money. I think part of the problem is that the person or person's Wizkids has doing their figure design, isn't to clever, and doesn't have a firm grasp on probabilities and math as applied to game mechanics.
I live in Seattle and went into wizkids storefront and was talking to the people behind the counter about 6-8 months ago. I was asking if they heard any news on weather those in charge were planing to do anything about Firelord and they said that the head game designer had come in and showed them several ways to easily deal with Firelord, most of which involved incapacitate. (A power that the game designer claimed was one of the most powerful.) So what I'm thinking goes on here is that the game designer doesn't go to big tournaments and doesn't talk to any of the big tournament winners for input on game balance and strategy.
Another example of Wizkids appathy was an interview that the head HC designer did here on HC realms in which he said HeroClix wasn't designed to be balanced and competative. If somone wanted that they should play a different game. That interview pretty much sickened me. I was thinking Wizkids should have canned him and hired someone who wasn't appathetic about his product quality. Still I think some people at Wizkids care. They do put forth the effort to update the FAQ regularly, and they have some rules commitee who are putting out rulings regularly. So they are trying to make things better. Hopefully they'll move that effort along and do a good job.
darius_dax1
03/28/2003, 21:03
Look, idiots, the game is changing each time a new set is released. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Or if you have such a great idea of what the game should have been, I have two suggestions for you:
1. Create your own set of rules. Call it: "South American Super-hero Showdown. Design and print hundreds of flyers inviting all intrerested to attend this "better Hero Clix" tournament. Hold tournament. Enjoy.
2. Stop playing Hero Clix and design your own game. Take it to Marvel and DC and see if they license to your company. Rake in millions putting Hero Clix out of business, forcing all of us to play your game instead.
To those that disagree with this thread:
Keep on posting on these threads. Our opinions matter as much as theirs. We aren't whining, they are. It seems to me that every time one of us responds to their post we get a facefull of obscenity and insult because we don't share the same ignorant views that they do. When outwit beats me, I get mad at me and check my strategy. I don't try to change the rules to suit my personal needs. If we could all do this we wopuld have a hundreds of pages of rules to re-learn.
Originally posted by Brazil
Another example of Wizkids appathy was an interview that the head HC designer did here on HC realms in which he said HeroClix wasn't designed to be balanced and competative. If somone wanted that they should play a different game.
Actually, IIRC what he said was that the game was not designed to be a ranked tournament game, but rather a fun "beer & pretzels" game (my words, not his). Which is rather a different take than what you came away with.
darius_dax1
03/28/2003, 21:26
There's supposed to be beer and pretzels?!? Now I agree, let's fix this game by adding beer and pretzels to the rule book!!!
darius_dax1
03/28/2003, 21:40
Originally posted by drgnof tyr
hey darius i am going to play a game with your rule changes i just wanna see the look on the guys face when i snap the nightcrawler of his base and say you've just been hit by ultron's devestator attack keep up the posts man they are always funny honestly guys if you dont like the powers for the new sets dont buy them stick to the orriginal
Funny? I was serious. These guys won me over. I'm a dark-side convert.;)
Grundy22
03/29/2003, 02:14
I really agree with a lot of your sdtuff. I will say that some of the rce stuff is a little to complicated for such a simple game from a rule stand point. I will say I was overly impressed with how thought out some of your answers were. My advice to any one out there screw the tourneys and play with friends that way you can change the rules that you think suck it makes the game much more fun.:laugh:
darius_dax1
03/29/2003, 02:23
Originally posted by Grundy22
My advice to any one out there screw the tourneys and play with friends that way you can change the rules that you think suck it makes the game much more fun.:laugh:
And ther you have it. The most sound advice to this thread.
lancelot
03/29/2003, 13:14
indeed! i just dont understand what all the whining is truly about. outwit? perplex? im a DC-only player and I play only DC matches, NONE of us complain. we're all thrilled when we get to play outwit, both with and against. it's just one of the best nullifiers and strategical tactics. heck, we ve spent 30 minutes positioning our troops without nary a combat, then it all blew up into a bloodbath when our outwitters couldnt really outwit anything due to terrain, stealth, and other factors. bottom line, play with it, play around it, play through it, you ll find numerous ways to defeat a single concept. personally, i think everybody s overlooking incapacitate. i dont, i usually try to pair batman and nightwing, have bats incap, nightwing shoot for 3 or another incap, it s pretty much game over for their bigger figs if i can tie them up like this. bats' got willpower as well...oh, well that s only my 2 cents, along with the other 8 cents i ve already contributed :laugh:
darius_dax1
03/29/2003, 13:19
Evolve your tactics, don't change the rules.
It is as simple as that.
lancelot
03/29/2003, 13:22
i couldnt have said it better, dax :) curzon wouldve been proud of you :)
Darius_dax1 wrote:
<<Look, idiots, the game is changing each time a new set is released. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. >>
The problem that I percieve is that as different figures are released, they make other figures obsolete.
Examples
U Electra (IC) makes V Electra (IC) obsolete.
Firelord and Bullseye pretty much made all other Range combat figures obsolete.
Tell me again why someone would play U Cyclops when they could play E Bullseye?
When CT came out Rookie Invisible Girl lessened the value of just about every figure who wasn't capable of hitting an 18 defense figure.
Now with the release of Xplosion we have the ultimate in cheap perplexers. Whirlwind and Quicksilver can now dish out enough damage in 1 turn to take down just about any figure in the game....this means that formerly tough high costed figures are succeptable to being KO'd in 1 turn...so why play them... Of course the Rookie Invisible Girl advantage has been lessened. So some figures that were made useless by her are now useful again...but I don't see a solution to making high costed figures competative again.
So let me ask all you Brazil bashers a hypatheticol question.
If Wizkids released a new figure that costed 5 points had hypersonic speed with a movement of 40, did a base 20 points of damage and had an attack value of 15, would this imballance the game at all? Would everyone play this figure and pretty much none other? Would that be a bad thing?
As per your arguments, it would be fair. I mean anyone could play him, so that's fair right? He's not "borken" because everyone has access to playing that figure. All people would have to do is adjust their play style, and HeroClix would be just fine. Nothing wrong at all. Just Shut up Brazil and play your 300 point army made up of 60 of this figure, and have fun. You can still play your friendly games Brazil with all the regular figures you like to use....you just wont be able to win anymore unless you play with super-trooper....that's no big deal is it?
Well I made a bit of an exaggerated example of what's happening...1 figure hasn't come along that's made all other figures obsolete. Cough (Con Artist) Cough. But Wizkids has continued to release figures that cause many figures to be non-competative. It is possible with some changes, to make every figure competative in it's own right. Rules and/or figure costs or figure abilities could be adjusted so that each figure is playable...otherwise there will be a big pile of figures which won't be tournament competative, and this pile will continue to grow. "Take those guys and put them in my special 'useless figures' box with Kang, V. Electra, U Cyclops, Constrictor, Hobgoblin....ect. Hey buddy, don't mix my good figures with those useless ones. Hey Jim, why do all these figures have dust on them, some of them look pretty cool. Yeah they do look cool, there are just way better figures to play with if you want a competative chance of winning, so no one ever plays them."
Yeah, I want to change things. Yes I think my changes would make more figures playable. If you don't want all figures competative, then by all means argue and post here in this thread, and call me an idiot like Darius_Dax1 does.
Yes, I realize this is just a game, and it doesn't have to be ballanced so that all figures are useful in some way.....but, why not. Would it really hurt anything if you had a fair chance of winning if you took just about any figure?
TychesCoin
03/30/2003, 16:30
Originally posted by Brazil
[BThe problem that I percieve is that as different figures are released, they make other figures obsolete.
[/B]
While I think the potential exists for that to happen, I think the existence of a consistent formula across all sets will help keep it under control. I also think your examples make some bad assumptions. I haven't seen much evidence of newer characters making older ones obsolete. My best team still uses IC characters only, except when I decide to use vet sandman instead of vet spiderman. But thats my experience which may be very different from yours
I think unique IC elektra should make vet IC elektra obsolete. Its good sense on wizkids part. Uniques are meant to be rare, high demand figures. Vet elektra is playable if you don't have a unique elektra which to wizkids thinking the majority of casual players won't. Sure the two-point difference in cost probably doesn't cover the stat difference, but if I just don't have the U, I'll play the vet quite willingly to fill that stealthed BCF role on my team.
Unique Cyclops is useful on an all x-man team, especially now that cheap x-men are more common. The team ability works better with high numbers of x-team members so his low cost makes it easier.
Kang is dangerous. I've lost alot of games to good Kang-based teams.
Similarly I've won way too many games with constrictor to consider him useless.
I can't say anything good about hobgoblin
Alot of character's usefulness depends on game style. I find that in low outwit, high number of brawlers games incapactitate is far more useful than in games where outwit is the primary anti-invulnerability option. Similarly in high outwit games you're probably better off usng a team without an invulnerability-based brawler. I agree that thats still a problem, I should be able to build a well thought out balanced team without knowing what I'll be facing and not run the risk that my team will prove completely unviable. But I don't think the problem requires alot of the fairly extreme proposals you make.
I don't see perplex as a game breaking power even when it is massed. And especially not on con artists they're slow and weak. Ultimately perplex's usefulness depends on the base character and its complete lack of defensive ability means eventually those base characters are gonna get beat down pretty good. Quicksilver/Whirlwind are gonna get one flurried attack and are gonna then get hit pretty good. Then you have to split perplex between attack and damage to keep them effective. I think perplex will settle into a support role along the lines of enhancement or outwit rather than be something people build their teams around. Atleast where using large numbers of conartists are concerned. Perplex teams built using Doc Samson, Gambit, Beast, Doc Ock or some combination of them could be terribly impressive.
skeevo666
03/30/2003, 16:48
Originally posted by Brazil
Tell me again why someone would play U Cyclops when they could play E Bullseye?
1. 'coz they want an X-Men team figure (Bullseye is not)
2. 'coz they like Cyclops as a comic-book character (more than Bullseye)
3. 'coz they're playing an "all-hero" team (Bullseye is not)
4. 'coz they'd like the challenge of winning with him (instead of Bullseye)
5. 'coz thet want someone who never loses RCE on his dial (Bullseye does)
6. 'coz they want a figure who'll get double points for taking down a Sentinel (Bullseye doesn't)
Need more bunky?
darius_dax1
03/30/2003, 20:10
We need to change Heroclix. Why? Because whiners cannot use all their (seemingly) 'useless' characters to win every game they play.
Why would I use a Veteran Elektra over a Unique Elektra?
Maybe I don't posess a Unique Elektra.
Why would I use a Unique Cyclops over a Veteran Cyclops?
Maybe I need to crunch points to fit a good ranger on my team. Maybe the Unique Cyclops has a combat dial that is more in-line with the strategy I have planned.
Why would I field a Hobgoblin?
I wouldn't.
(JK)Maybe I need a relatively cheap flier and I am already using all my Vultures. Maybe I don't have a Vulture.
I think you are probably one of those people that act surprised when you lose, like it couldn't happen ever.
Grow up baby. If you don't like Hero CLix then don't play.
I have been playing for about a year now and I haven't run into any problems with the rules or Borken figures.
So your logic for not using one figure over another is "some people don't own that figure"???
Was that your argument in anti-firelord threads as well? "He's not a problem, some people don't have firelord."
The ostrich argument, is that what you're using?"
So you're thinking it's OKAY for a Unique to be better than a non-unique. "People who have more money to spend on this game should have an advantage over poor people." That's what you're advocating then is it? That doesn't sound very fair to me. (and I have a full set of figures BTW. I only mention this to stop you from making some disparaging finantial comment.)
<<If you don't like Hero CLix then don't play.>>
What???? Where did you ever get this idea? I like HeroClix, I just think some of the rules and character costs have shortcomings....I see problems with the game, so I'm proposing possible solutions to these problems. I'm making an effort here to make things better....for that I get accused of being a "whiner...a baby ... and accused of not liking heroclix." I'm trying to do some good, and I'm getting bashed by you. Is this how you behave in person when you have debates with people? You resort to name calling and personal attacks? And you're challanging my maturity level? If you don't have intellegent arguments, please refrain from posting name calling.
And Skeevo ... the first 4 reasons you gave had nothing to do with strategy, they were personal preferance choices. That's like saying, "This figure isn't obsolete because he has a cool paint job." your 4th and 5th points had a miniscule amount of merit, but don't outweigh Bullseye's cheaper cost and statistical superiority.
Brazil, you don't like Heroclix. You've proven that time and again. Nothing you can say now will change that fact. You've established your position many times, and it's always been negative.
And no one buys the "higher ground" stance you are taking here man. "I'm trying to do some good," and "I'm making an effort to make things better..." is tired man. When you randomly changed the points to fit your "idea" of the game, was that "to make things better"? Seriously...
-Rich
drgnoftyr
03/31/2003, 15:39
hey darius i am going to play a game with your rule changes i just wanna see the look on the guys face when i snap the nightcrawler of his base and say you've just been hit by ultron's devestator attack keep up the posts man they are always funny honestly guys if you dont like the powers for the new sets dont buy them stick to the orriginal
TychesCoin
03/31/2003, 16:22
Originally posted by Brazil
So your logic for not using one figure over another is "some people don't own that figure"???
. . .
So you're thinking it's OKAY for a Unique to be better than a non-unique.
. . .
And Skeevo ... the first 4 reasons you gave had nothing to do with strategy, they were personal preferance choices. That's like saying, "This figure isn't obsolete because he has a cool paint job." your 4th and 5th points had a miniscule amount of merit, but don't outweigh Bullseye's cheaper cost and statistical superiority.
I think its quite ok for a Unique to be better than a non-unique. Especially when the unique is another version of an REV figure. First the rarity is an issue, I can't count on facing a unique elektra the same way I can a firelord. Secondly I can't double up on unique elektra's like I can with an REV figure. So the bonus can't be compounded. And I've never seen a huge difference in performance between a well built team using a unique elektra and the same one using a vet.
Also I think Skeevo's first point is also very much a strategy issue. Unique cyclops is a good piece if you're trying to capitalize on the x-team ability. He's cheap and a usable piece (maybe not quite as much so as bullseye). I'd also say cyclops makes a good alternative if you want to use a IC daredevil, especially the vet where he adds another team ability to clone.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 16:32
Originally posted by Brazil
So let me ask all you Brazil bashers a hypatheticol question.
If Wizkids released a new figure that costed 5 points had hypersonic speed with a movement of 40, did a base 20 points of damage and had an attack value of 15, would this imballance the game at all? Would everyone play this figure and pretty much none other? Would that be a bad thing?
As per your arguments, it would be fair.
The thing is, they WOULDN'T. You are equivalating Black Panther to this mythical figure. You are so hung up n Juggernaut being taken out by black Panther you can't see straight. No figure would ever cost five points with that many powers, so your argument is moot and obsolete.
I'm still waiting for our second game...
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 16:37
Originally posted by skeevo666
1. 'coz they want an X-Men team figure (Bullseye is not)
2. 'coz they like Cyclops as a comic-book character (more than Bullseye)
3. 'coz they're playing an "all-hero" team (Bullseye is not)
4. 'coz they'd like the challenge of winning with him (instead of Bullseye)
5. 'coz thet want someone who never loses RCE on his dial (Bullseye does)
6. 'coz they want a figure who'll get double points for taking down a Sentinel (Bullseye doesn't)
Need more bunky?
EXTREMELY well put. Who would ever play an all-Skrull team when they could play R FLord, E FLord, R Invisible Girl, some Doombots and Medics?
I would.
Angelofhate
03/31/2003, 16:38
Lets not overlook something here... This is a game based on rules. Without the rules, we'd just be playing with little "Army men" and screaming "MOOOOM HE TOOK MY JUICE BOX!!!" Let us grow up and accept that life isnt fair sometimes and every now and again Black Panther is going to outwit an invulnerable person and that person will get pimpslapped by the con artist from hell.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 16:47
Originally posted by Brazil...by way of paraphrasing his previous quotes
I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this game will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "When you and your friends get together for a HeroClix game, you each build a force from your own collection of characters."
I see problems with the game, so I'm proposing possible solutions to these problems. I'm making an effort here to make things better....for that I get accused of being a "whiner...a baby ... and accused of not liking heroclix." I'm trying to do some good, and I'm getting bashed by you.
I have a dream that one day even the Juggernaut, an unstoppable clix, sweltering with the heat of cheap outwit and perplex, will shrug off the injustice of the Black Panther and the Con Artist.
One day, we will arrive at that 50 minute time limit and sing the Marvel spiritual, "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God almighty! Juggernaut is free at last!"
Thank God for Brazil...
shin-goji we have not played a game yet.
Oh, wait you're claiming a victory because you choose to play a 2 sentinals and a Battle furry figure AFTER you saw I was playing a mind control team.
Yeah, you got me on that one.
(and we never played even one turn of that game.)
shin-goji
Not cool making up false quotations.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 16:56
Actually Brazil, yes we did. You came up with a team, then I came up with a team. You said we could go ahead and play, but admitted that if we did play that you would lose, because you soaked all your points into Incapacitate and Mind Control, mostly wasted on my team of Sentinels and Spiral. Therefore, you conceeded a loss before the first die roll. Then, before I came up with a second team, you went off on your 8 person forum match, then agreed to another multi-player forum game, both of which I declined to play because we were supposed to play one on one.
So once again, you have lost one game by conceeding defeat.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 16:58
Oh, and by the way, are you accusing me of cheating by coming up with a team after I found out what your build was? I can get SEVERAL people on this Realm to back me up on how often I play Sentinels. If I had come up with the team first, and emailed it to you, would it have been fair for you to have changed your build after finding out what mine was? If you are questioning my integrity, I got more people to back me up than you ever will.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 17:00
Originally posted by Brazil
shin-goji
Not cool making up false quotations.
There, does that make it better?
But not by any supperior game play on your part....which you keep bringing it up as though you have done.
Angelofhate
03/31/2003, 17:00
and his dad can beat up your dad.
TychesCoin
03/31/2003, 17:02
Originally posted by Angelofhate
Lets not overlook something here... This is a game based on rules. Without the rules, we'd just be playing with little "Army men" and screaming "MOOOOM HE TOOK MY JUICE BOX!!!"
Thats true, but at the same time we should recognize that the rules aren't perfect and that rules can and do change. Just because this hasn't happened yet in heroclix, doesn't mean it won't. If it ever comes down to a question of banning figures or tweaking rules, I think wizkids will tweak rules. They make money off the figures not the rules.
darius_dax1
03/31/2003, 17:11
What I was trying to say your logic for only using Elektra Unique over REV was absurd and I was trying to point out the flaw in your logic. Some people don't have all the uniques so they would have to use a REV instead.
You argued against Skevo666's point about Unique Cyclops' awesome paint job but you failed to mention my arguments. Could that be because you wouldn't consider using him so noone else should?
Some people will always have more money to spend on a game than some other people. Is this fair, yes it is, at least in the U.S. You have the same opportunity to make more money as everybody else BECAUSE THE RULES APPLY TO YOU THE SAME AS THEY DO TO EVERYBODY ELSE, JUST LIKE IN HEROCLIX!!! Is life fair? No, it isn't. As a society we can only attempt total equality, some will slip through the cracks. People born with dis-abilities don't get a fair start, but they do get the same right to pursue happiness. Happiness, by the way, is not a gaurantee.
The way you keep trying to change the rules, this game will no longer be Hero-clix, so no, you do not like Hero-clix.
What you do like is the concept of a CMG but not using the rules of this one.
The only efforts you could be accused of is trying to make the game better for YOUR playing style. The rules don't need to be changed because your strategies are borken. If somebody has a better strategy than you, you will get beat because you are beating yourself. I got news for you, Juggernaut usually loses in the comics.
How much time do you actually waste trying to conceive these rules changes instead of just playing the game to learn better combos and strategy? I think your energy is just mis-directed. Have you ever tried to play a 400 point game with all rookies? or no character above 75 points? I learned alot about different figures this way. Don't always try to beat the win out of your opponent with bruisers, sometimes you need to finesse the win with thinkers and tacticians.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 17:13
Originally posted by Brazil
But not by any supperior game play on your part....which you keep bringing it up as though you have done.
Heck yeah it was superior game play. I brought an effective team to the table which I have used in previous tournaments. You backed down once you saw it without even trying. That counts as a win.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 17:17
Originally posted by Brazil
But not by any supperior game play on your part....which you keep bringing it up as though you have done.
I would say that superior force selection is also superior game play (or pre-play in this case :) )
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 17:18
Also,, you must have had confidence in my ability to play if you backed down before play started. Plain and simple.
dolemite199
03/31/2003, 17:21
I am here to support a fellow sentinel player (Shin-goji).
Brazil,
You want to be an advocate for HC changes, then you should be providing empherical evidence to support your claim that "HC needs fixed"! That is something you have not done yet. You are going about this in the worst way by assuming your proposed rules changes are in the best interests of all parties. I for one disagree with your solutions as I said previously. What is good for the geese is not always good for the gander! Maybe if you could find a middle ground instead of proposing radical changes to HC people would be more inclinded to listen to you. Right now you are coming of as a person who is extremely selfish in this matter. You want to see these things changed even if other people don't want the rules changed. Furthermore, you and I really have no chance of ever getting a company whom we are not employed by changing something because we think it should be. And it does not matter if we are the customer(s) in this situation. Wizkids has far to many people to keep happy besides you and I. Yes, they need to make the customer happy, but they also have to make sure their relationships with the compnaies that they make a product for are in good standing is well. That is more important than the customer. If Marvel and DC feel as though some figures are made incorrectly, or give a bad image to compnay, then they will most likely step in and do something about it. However, Firelord, Bullseye, Black Panther, and the Con Artist are not causing a problem. You only think they are because of your passionate line of reasoning. I think an 11pt perplexer is a bit much, but I am not running to the hills because of it. I welcome the chance to play against someone trying to "BREAK" the Con Artist, so I can beat him and show him how much of waste it is building that type of team. Again, this is just my two cents and I am not trying to offend you. Leave them game as is, and enjoy it however you wish too!
Sincerly,
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 17:29
Originally posted by Brazil
And Skeevo ... the first 4 reasons you gave had nothing to do with strategy, they were personal preferance choices. That's like saying, "This figure isn't obsolete because he has a cool paint job." your 4th and 5th points had a miniscule amount of merit, but don't outweigh Bullseye's cheaper cost and statistical superiority.
Then you should've asked for "strategic" reasons. Guess what, HeroClix IS a game of personal preferences. (or is there a gun to your head when you pull Juggernaut out of yr box)
I gave you 6 reasons (more than you can count on one hand; Pull the other one out of your *ss and count along)
My title said it all: You are thick
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 17:37
Well said dolemite. If I had known it was gonna be that kind of a party I'd have stuck my clix in the mashed potatoes!
ten2driver
03/31/2003, 17:45
Originally posted by Brazil
shin-goji
Not cool making up false quotations.
Technically...he never claimed to be quoting you directly.
Brazil...whether you're right or wrong....release the anger brother...it IS just a game, isn't it?
P.S. shin-goji IS widely known for his love and frequent utilization of the Sentinal.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 17:54
Originally posted by ten2driver
Technically...he never claimed to be quoting you directly.
The words may not have been 100%, but the preachy tone was all Rev. Brazil's ("Juggernaut died for our sins" Jeez, just 'coz Black Panther's got horns on his head . . .)
Originally posted by ten2driver
Brazil...whether you're right or wrong....release the anger brother...it IS just a game, isn't it?
or at least take that lump of coal out your butt; it's probably a diamond by now ;)
Originally posted by ten2driver
P.S. shin-goji IS widely known for his love and frequent utilization of the Sentinal.
and for featuring them in his hilarious cartoons (The pre-FAQ one where they're hauling off Sinestro is pure comedy gold!!!!!)
Shin-Goji,
Had we played out that game, the only chance I would have had, was if you played moronically bad, or if I had rolled insanely good and you rolled insanely bad. Had we played the game it would have proven nothing. I had a team which just didn't match up to the team you had choosen. Your win was roughly the equivelent of a well played game of Rock Paper Scissors. Of course you've been posting the results over and over as though you accomplished something.
As for this thread, I was under the impression that if someone had any ideas which may improve the game that they could post those ideas....I know in a forum addressed to wizkids...who knows they might even read such a forum for customer feedback.
Instead I get attacked by a bunch of people with little in the way of intellegent argument. Yet long in the way of immature name calling.
Someone a couple of posts back threw out the "quit trying to make the characters 'fair', life isn't fair." argument.
How am I supposed to argue a statement like that? If you folks want a game where a bunch of the figures you spent money on aren't competative, and a handful of figures dominate tournament play....I guess you should bash on anyone like myself attempting to fix these problems. Congratulations you've done a fine job.
Darth_Beef
03/31/2003, 17:58
It kinna bothers me that we've got this guy who thinks that the whole game ought to be re-fashioned around his shortcomings for the purpose of "regaining lost strategy and fun."
Look man, maybe this isn't your game.
Ever thought about checkers? There's no Outwit or Perplex in checkers, nor is there a "Firelord" piece. Everyone starts out with exactly the same team, composed entirely of individuals who all have the exact same powers. Furthermore, despite what you might think after your first few games, neither the "Red" team nor the "Black" team holds any unfair advantages over the other. That might be a little bit more your speed.
Get real, man.
No one's got a gun to you head forcing you to play this game. If you don't like it, jeez, go do something else.
I think your problem with strategy is that the present state of the game is forcing you to make one instead of relying on the same old tricks that worked back before x-figure came out and "ruined the game."
I think your problem with fun is that you don't have any when you're playing, you only have it when you're winning.
Losing is frustrating, sure. I spend alot of time losing for the simple fact of the matter that I'm not all that good at this game, but hey, I enjoy it. You don't seem to, so why bother?
-BEEF
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 18:01
Originally posted by Darth_Beef
Losing is frustrating, sure. I spend alot of time losing for the simple fact of the matter that I'm not all that good at this game, but hey, I enjoy it. You don't seem to, so why bother?
-BEEF
Wow, our newest member and he already gets it :) Welcome DB!
ten2driver
03/31/2003, 18:02
Originally posted by Brazil
Congratulations you've done a fine job.
Why thanks!
And, for the record, I, for one, was neither attacking your NOR arguing.
Just try lightening up a little...friendly advise, that's all.
darius_dax1
03/31/2003, 18:15
Originally posted by drgnof tyr
hey darius i am going to play a game with your rule changes i just wanna see the look on the guys face when i snap the nightcrawler of his base and say you've just been hit by ultron's devestator attack keep up the posts man they are always funny honestly guys if you dont like the powers for the new sets dont buy them stick to the orriginal
Let me know how it goes. I will try to cook up some more rules for later because everybody's doing it!
Where do you people get the idea that I'm not good at this game?
I make arguments that the game shouldn't be weighted in favor of the people with the most money. So do you people think money is an issue with me? It's not, I have all the figures from the first two marvel sets, plus most of the LE's, and by the end of this week I should have all of the Xplosion figures. Do I want to win games because I have more figures than someone else? No I'll loan my figures to anyone at a tournament who needs a figure to complete the team he/she wants to play.
The same applies to strategies. You people assume I'm no good at this game. In fact, I win way more than I loose, and no I don't throw tantrums when I loose. I've placed 3rd, 2nd, 1st and 1st in the 4 marquee events I played in when CT came out. there was an average of around 20 players in each of these events. I'm not the Bobby Fisher of HeroClix, but I must not totally suck to produce those kinds of consistant results. I'm not pointing out these potentially exploitable flaws in the rules/and or figure costing because I'm not capable of taking advantage of them. I do it because I recognize them, and would like them eliminated so that people don't play tournaments with the same dozen figures all the time, and use the same exploitable rules/figures over and over, because that makes the game Stagnent.
When IC was the only set out there, Firelord teams dominated and won every single major Convention tourmament. Do you think it was fun playing in that enviorment? If you wanted to win, you had to play firelord or get consistantly lucky. Looking at the big tournament results, it doesn't look like anyone got "consistantly lucky". And people who won with firelord aren't to blame. They recognized, that Wizkids had made a mistake in costing him so low, and those people exploited that problem and won. It wasn't their fault for doing their best to win.
Now with cheap perplexers I suspect the Con Artist will replace Firelord as the main figures successful tournament teams are based around. Why is that? Because Wizkids didn't recognize the potential of cheap perplexers when they made and costed that figure.
I'm making suggestions to hopefully present posible solutions to this problem to wizkids.
Whereever you are reading that I don't like this game, you are wrong. I'm actually putting effort into trying to make things better...I'm not sure how you people can equate that to not liking the game.
darius_dax1
03/31/2003, 18:31
Make things better for who? Those rules would not make it better for anyone that I play hc with.
Did you ever pause to think that cheap perplexers are the answer to Firelord?
Give the game time to fix itself.
it should be weighted in favor of the people with the most money. get a better job or devote more money on it. better yet, go get a prozac prescription filled
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 18:36
Originally posted by Brazil
Now with cheap perplexers I suspect the Con Artist will replace Firelord as the main figures successful tournament teams are based around.
Well why don't we wait for the empirical evidence Clouseau? I've survived tourneys with multiple Harleys & Riddlers on teams; I'm ready for the cons (actually these cons look like pros!)
Originally posted by Brazil
Why is that? Because Wizkids didn't recognize the potential of cheap perplexers when they made and costed that figure.
I think they knew exactly what they were doing and I applaud them for it. Cheap, non-team Perplex (just like cheap, non-team Support with the Paramedic) JonL, do you like Roses or Carnations?
Originally posted by Brazil
Whereever you are reading that I don't like this game, you are wrong. I'm actually putting effort into trying to make things better...I'm not sure how you people can equate that to not liking the game.
we just find it hard to believe you can like a game that requires so much "fixing" (8 points in yr original post)
Tell you what, when you change your mind I'll tell you where the time machine is that the stock market trader from the future used and you can go back and erase this asinine thread :knockedou
darius_dax1
03/31/2003, 18:50
Brazil,
When did someone appoint you the King of all things fair in the world of Hero Clix?
You did not want to discuss the rules and reasons why they are like this and whay they work or don't work the way they could/should/do. You proposed unilateral changes based on your experience with the game.
If you're so good and you win most of your games, then what is your beef. I think you may just be jealous that you didn't come up with this idea first.
I think most everybody has argued intelligently for their opinions, except you.
I don't agree with tychescoin but tc's argument are well thought out.
TychesCoin
03/31/2003, 18:52
Brazil,
As I said near the beginning of this thread, I disagree with nearly all your proposed rule changes. I do not disagree that they rule changes shouldn't be made. I just feel that many of your proposed balancing ideas are pretty extreme and alot of them are unneccesary. I think the incapacitate proposal in particular is poorly thought out. Incapacitate is good power, especially with multiple targets. It just sometimes gets overshadowed by things like outwit or shield bonus damage.
I think the game is just off being well balanced. The only two issue I see that should be changed are outwit with a minor tweak in its capabilites against defensive powers and taxiing should be toned down abit. I really think thats all the fixing the game really needs. Anything that makes taxiing less necessary, makes battlefury less of a hindrance, and anything that weakens outwit against invulnerability makes incapacitate more valuable. I think thats about all you need to do to make figures like juggernaut and constrictor viable under any circumstances. As for hobgoblin, I'm not sure anything will hhelp hobgoblin.
I think you've gotten off topic with the unique elektra/vet elektra thing as no proposed rule change is really gonna fix that. I think it makes sense that unique elektra is a more cost-effective piece. I also don't see the difference between the two being a game breaker or significant imbalance. I especiialy don't think this one piece weights the game overwhelmingly in favor of people with more money. The fact is its a collectible game, more money spent means more figures available which creates more options. Thats the only way the game is unbalanced towards money. and that won't be fixed by rule changes.
I also can't imagine conartists becoming an essential part of dominant teams. They're weak and slow and unlike a medic not worth taxiing around. They're thugs with a single useful click. I think first and foremost they'll be mobile terrain and perplex is just a bonus. Once they're on their perplex clicks they're just targets for the bullseye's and unique cyclopses of the world. One shot and two of them are useless. Perplex is a solid support power, its right up there with outwit as far as flexibility goes. But conartists aren't resilient enough to make it a feature power. I wouldn't even be upset if they make a figure in the next set with conartist stats and outwit on the second click and I think outwit's a tad overpowered. A piece is only as good as its ability to stay alive and conartists have very little chance.
<<If you're so good and you win most of your games, then what is your beef.>>
Here let me spell it our for you YET AGAIN. My beef is that certain figures are rarely used because they are not competative due to poor figure costing or rules make certain figures non-cost efficient to play.
SoRetarded
03/31/2003, 19:05
Originally posted by Brazil
You see scowlingone, and dc fan, this post is in the "Dear Wizkids" section. In hopes that they would read it. I didn't post it here for your benefit....
The thing is, we don't want WizKids to read it. We want you to stop complaining. We don't want a huge ban list, or figure recalls. We don't want the game to turn into everything that was wrong with Magic. WOTC has done a terrible thing with their games by creating ban lists and tons of errata. WizKids has a lengthy FAQ, fine. That's a FAQ, not a ban list, not a restricted figure list. Those are answers to QUESTIONS. Not new rules. They are clarifications to already standing rules and corrections to misprints. It's not page after page of certain figure combinations that can't be used. How does banning a figure / card / whatever that you payed good money for show that you "care about your fans" or "care about maintaining game balance"? The main problem with Magic has been that there has NEVER BEEN game balance. The whole point of creating point levels for teams and characters it to ADD game balance and they did a fine job at it.
Most often these threads are based solely on opinion. "I feel that medics are unfair...", "I don't like taxi's...", "I don't think that Outwit should be used on...", "Perplex should only be used against opponents because...". They are all opinions, and not facts. Find facts. If you can PROVE to the community with actual good data and empirical evidence then maybe people will listen and not just write you off as a complainer. If you think Firelord is under-priced, then PROVE IT. Find a situation where Firelord cannot be beaten. Find a team that has NO WEAKNESSES and then we have a problem that needs fixing, until then all you have is speculation and opinions and they count for nothing.
Now considering that you have no facts to back yourself up, I have to assume that you are a whiner, lazy, or just not very bright. If the game is too hard for you, play something that is less complicated and doesn't require as much thinking. If you don't like that answer, then keep playing but try thinking and not complaining. If you get beat, think of a way to fight back. I personally have NEVER LOST TO A FIRELORD TEAM and I don't think he needs fixing even though a lot of other people do. Is that a-typical? Probably. Will it matter to you after you get your tail handed to you by a firelord team? No. The real problem is most people don't like losing, and it looks like some of the most vocal people are either dumb, lazy or don't like a challenge.
The fact is you posted a topic on a public forum and as a result it got read and you got flamed because many people don't agree with you. If you can't take criticism don't be so quick to offer it lest it be turned back at you. Most of your suggestions were not usefull at all other then for the benefit of some characters, but they completely hosed other characters. If ANY figure could move half speed and then attack how does that help with the taxi problem? There have been FAR too many instances in the comics where characters have been carried to ban carrying all together. If anything, the move half speed and fire makes taxi's MORE valuable since now they could move half speed while carrying and then fire after dropping off their passenger.
I have plenty of comics where one character has carried (ready for this...) more then one other character. Storm has done it, Jean Grey when she was the Phoenix carried the whole team. Superman can carry a busload of people, or a battleship, or a train... Why not make it so EVERYONE can carry... That would be a great way to limit taxi's, right? Then everyone would just play a rookie Quicksilver and zip accross the board with free movements. WizKids made a design choice for the game. Live with it and move on.
Making it so you can only carry cheaper pieces is as bad as any other taxi suggestion. People always point to Wasp and say that she can't carry the Hulk. Well unfortunately she has done just that in the comics. Plus what does point cost have to do with weight anyway? Does a figure like Colossus cost / weigh less on his first "unpowered" click then he does on his second? A Doombot is a steel / iron / whatever machine but costs / and therefore weighs less then Colossus. Have you ever tried lifting a 6 foot tall hunk of steel. Good luck to you, have fun with that hernia. What about the Hulk when he is Bruce Banner? How much does he weigh? Does his first click cost over 100 points? Why does Spiderman "weigh" more than the Blob? Cost has NOTHING to do with weight, do that "solution" is pointless.
If you don't like it when your figures have their powers Outwitted, then use your Outwit to Outwit their Outwit. It's a good way to completely decimate someone who relies on Outwit. So long as you do it well they won't get it back since it comes back at the START of your turn and so long as you keep it on, you keep them out of Outwit. Oh no, they are Stealthed with Outwit, then use the Superman ability and treat Stealth like it doesn't Exist. Or just TK someone in and have them hit for 1-2 clicks of damage and they'll lose Outwit. Use hypersonic speed to zip over and do the click or two while ignoring everyone in your way...
Instead of just complaining about it, try to think of a solution. If you can't, then try asking a question about it. Chances are that if you have faced a problem, others have too, and maybe they have a good way to get around it. Besides, it's not like EVERY character in the game has Outwit. There's only a handfull that start with it, and most of them are DC. Play Marvel only if you don't like dealing with Outwit.
When a rule get's changed you have to consider how it will effect ALL of the pieces you would be altering. That's something your "fixes" don't take into consideration. One small change can unbalance the whole thing and making a half dozen "fixes" certainly would destroy the game.
Originally posted by Brazil
What I think the game is unfair twards is different figures. Wizkids releases a few peices that make other figures obsolete, then people spend money to buy a big pile of pieces and most of them never get used because they're not competative.
So what you're saying is that we should blame WizKids for having an effective business model?
Originally posted by onew0rd
Ahoy, here come the thread pitrates. All you guys are seriously angry individuals. Like freaking vultures smelling some roadkill. One of you pecks then everyone jumps in for the feast. I don't necissarily agree with Brazil's points, but he should be able to ####ing express them without being assaulted with personal attacks and senseless commentary. Bunch of #######s. Seriously. The lot of you's.
Sorry, but just as you can express your opinion by calling those of us who like the game as it is now and don't want to watch it slide down the same slippery slope as Magic "#######s", we can choose to voice our opinion that there is nothing wrong with the game. It's all about the better strategy. Sure, dice play a BIG part, and if you have a bad dice game you will probably lose, but 90% of the time it all comes down to strategy. It's like a big game of Chess with pretty little plastic comic book heroes attached. You don't see them dumbing down chess to that just anyone can play it, and there is no reason for them to do the same to HeroClix. If you can find an unbeatable team / combination of players then that is something that should be fixed, but for ANY team out there, ANY team... there is a weakness that can be found. Find the unbeatable team, and I'll listen to your arguments for why the game needs to be "fixed."
No one is forcing anyone to play HeroClix. If you don't like it, wait until it get's "fixed." If you think it needs to be fixed now, then post a poll and let people vote. I'm pretty certain that the results won't even be close. The vocal minority start these "broken" threads, and the majority who think nothing is wrong respond; sometimes with rants (ahem) and sometimes with very good arguments. Would it be better if 90% of the threads on the board were "The game is great, let's leave it alone!" My biggest complaint is that instead of asking questions, people just assume that because they can't beat a team, or find an effective strategy then something must be broken and the game needs to be fixed. If the "borken" thread people would ask questions instead of coming up with ways to limit / hinder the game you'd see a lot less anger. You can only read so many of these "borken" threads before you get fed up and have to respond...
TychesCoin,
I've found that it's pretty rare that figures acctually use their incapacitate power. When batman has to choose between doing 3 damage to a figure, or incapacitating that figure....the 3 damage option is generally (not always, but more often than not) the more tactically sound choice. People recognize that RCE and Running shot work against each other...if a figure with both chooses to do a running shot, they are losing the ability to use RCE on that attack...hence most people will choose to TAXI the RCE figure around to do the extra 2 damage, hence devaluing running shot.
Well whenever you choose to use incapacitate you're making the same choice, you having to choose to do 2 less damage (depending on the figure), to use incapacitate. It's my expeience that doing the 2 extra points of damage is tactically more "incapacitating", than "incapacitate".
You also addressed reducing Taxiing. My proposal of giving eveyone running shot and charge (the way they currently work), and further enhancing the powers of Charge and Running shot for those with those superpowers, would deminish the current importance of using Taxi's. Right now, if a team doesn't use taxi's they are basiclly giving up the first shot to their opponents which is tactically huge in this game.
You seemed to like my idea for limiting outwit, and my only other complaint was making Perplex more realistic...which would also reduce it's effectiveness, which would reduce the liklyhood of Con Artist teams dominating play till the next set comes out.
Sinister SID
03/31/2003, 19:18
Originally posted by Brazil
Here let me spell it our for you YET AGAIN. My beef is that certain figures are rarely used because they are not competative due to poor figure costing or rules make certain figures non-cost efficient to play. [/B]
Brazil, I think this specific statement of yours is right on the money -- no matter what other people say, it is absolutely true that some figures are over-costed and/or underpowered, and some of the rules make certain characters infinitely more playable than others.
Personally my friends and I have no interest in playing competitive Heroclix because of the lack of fieldable combinations in serious play, and that has saved us a lot of headaches and frustration. (We also use plenty of house rules to fix the rules we dislike.)
The catch of course is you have to give up on the idea of winning LEs at sanctioned tournaments. (Which is a justifiable cause for complaint -- it would nice to be able to get LEs fielding whoever you'd like -- but it will realistically never happen).
As for all of the players who refuse to entertain the possibility that the game could/would be better with changes made to some figures or the general rules, well, be happy in the knowledge that Wizkids is obviously on your side and the game will continue to suit your gaming desires.
BUT, that does not necessarily mean that your position is right, and there's really no reason to blindly attack people who disagree (which has become a really bad habit in this forum -- at least try and be civilized about things -- everyone has a right to their opinion).
So keep up the good debate Brazil. You're not alone.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 19:22
Originally posted by Brazil
Shin-Goji,
Had we played out that game, the only chance I would have had, was if you played moronically bad, or if I had rolled insanely good and you rolled insanely bad. Had we played the game it would have proven nothing. I had a team which just didn't match up to the team you had choosen. Your win was roughly the equivelent of a well played game of Rock Paper Scissors. Of course you've been posting the results over and over as though you accomplished something.
First, nobody here respects your opinion. Unless you work at WK, none of your opinions will matter and no changes will be made. You can try to believe that "one man" can make a difference, but in this case you won't.
Finally, your defense of yourself that you didn't lose the game is pitiful and shameful.
FACT: You declined play after I posted my team. That counts as a loss. You are trying to deny that counts as a loss. I did accomplish something, I beat you. You accepted a challenge from me. You agreed to duel. When the time to take the muscle to the tussle rolled around, you looked at the battlefield and quit. It was a mutual decision, but you still lost, and you claim I created my team with intentions of making you waste points on a Puppet Master. This is not true. This is Sentinel Team: Beta. You, at the time of the challenge, were touting how great you were amidst your complaints a 36 point Black Panther could outwit, legally, Juggernaut.
I stood up to the plate, like i did against my former enemy Manchine. Manchine whooped me like a redheaded stepchild. And I publicly took my lumps. i at least had the honor to do that.
SoRetarded. I never suggested banning or restricting figures....what I'm hoping to accomplish is quite the opposite. I want to make some of the currently useless figures useful, so that they will get used, so the game is more diverse.
And Marvel has Rookie BP. (cheap Outwit.), and he was a member of the world championship team along with Firelord. In fact most of the top team at the major cons featured BP and Firelord.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 19:29
What makes you god to decide who is useless?
Just because Firelord and Bullseye are more effective than U Cyclops and Hawkeye, doesn't mean people won't play them. Maybe YOU won't play them because you can't win with them in a tourney, but HC LIFE IS NOT ABOUT THE TOURNEY!
The tourney should be the minority of your HC life, not the majority. Outwit in Marvel is too rare to warrant revising it.
Angelofhate
03/31/2003, 19:31
People laughed at me when I fielded Black Widow. Nobody Uses black widow... well, I ended up winning because of her incapacitate on his "brick" keep pushing that brick, and eventually, he'll go down.
As Dubya said in a debate with Gore...
Strategery.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 19:41
Originally posted by Brazil
People recognize that RCE and Running shot work against each other... ...hence most people will choose to TAXI the RCE figure around to do the extra 2 damage, hence devaluing running shot.
Hence only on figures that have both RCE & RS. Just because you don't like having to make a choice doesn't mean the choice should be eliminated (or ways found to make the decision less unpleasant)
Originally posted by Brazil
It's my expeience that doing the 2 extra points of damage is tactically more "incapacitating", than "incapacitate".
It's been my experience that the best use of Incap. is on a figure already with an action token. Push damage ignores Toughness/Invulnerability and gives you a turn of not having to worry about ANY kind of action from the Incap'd figure.
Don't let's "fix" incap. becuase you'd rather do damage.
Originally posted by Brazil
My proposal further enhancing the powers of Charge and Running shot for those with those superpowers, would deminish the current importance of using Taxi's. Right now, if a team doesn't use taxi's they are basiclly giving up the first shot to their opponents which is tactically huge in this game.
Where does "further enhancing" stop?
Yeah, a team built without a taxi should be punished for their poor grasp of tactics. There's a reason the little bus is stopping by yr house . . .
Originally posted by Brazil
making Perplex more realistic...which would also reduce it's effectiveness, which would reduce the liklyhood of Con Artist teams dominating play till the next set comes out.
at which time you'll find a new windmill to reduce, Quixote
TychesCoin
03/31/2003, 19:44
Originally posted by Brazil
TychesCoin,
I've found that it's pretty rare that figures acctually use their incapacitate power.
. . .
People recognize that RCE and Running shot work against each other...if a figure with both chooses to do a running shot, they are losing the ability to use RCE on that attack...hence most people will choose to TAXI the RCE figure around to do the extra 2 damage, hence devaluing running shot.
. . .
You also addressed reducing Taxiing. My proposal of giving eveyone running shot and charge (the way they currently work), and further enhancing the powers of Charge and Running shot for those with those superpowers, would deminish the current importance of using Taxi's.
. . .
You seemed to like my idea for limiting outwit, and my only other complaint was making Perplex more realistic...which would also reduce it's effectiveness, which would reduce the liklyhood of Con Artist teams dominating play till the next set comes out.
From bottom to top. First I don't think perplex needs fixing, its good but not game breaking. The only way it can become game breaking is if its massed. Trying to mass it using conartists is in my opinion doomed.
Secondly I agree outwit should be tweaked against invulenrability/toughenss but I think your proposal goes too far. My proposal would be to have the effect expire when the figure takes damage. The problem isn't that black panther outwits juggernaut and juggernaut takes full damage fron a single attacker. Its when he takes full damage from two or more attackers that it becomes crippling.
Third, I think your suggestion would just open the game up even more. People wouldn't stop taxiing because everyone can now charge/rs, they'd just taxi and then charge. I think to fix taxiing it should be made less powerful. That would make runningshot and charge more valuable and therefore possibly a better option in some cases than RCE/CCE.
Fourth, incapacitate. Yes incapacitate doesn't get used alot because damage almost always seems more valuable. However, if outwit is made less effective against inv, incapacitate becomes a more valuable counter to inv.
Even without outwit incapacitate is a very dangerous power. Sure batman would rather do 3 damage than add a token if he has a single opponent, but if faced with multiple targets why not give them each a token. Then next round hit one for three using willpower. Batman and nightwing can pretty much immobilize a good chunk of team. Multiple targets, good range, and incapacitate is very powerful. Add in willpower and it really can be alot of fun as you get to choose which opposing figures get to move next round. Incapacitate is a little weak on figures like constictor with limitted range and a single target but its by no means useless. I think its a power that heavily depends on what else in on the dial. It works great with flurry, multiple targets, willpower. Add leap/climb and you've got a solid skirmisher, toss in stealth and you've got a solid map control piece. I think any bonus added to it would make it be overpowered. It just gets overlooked as people seem to really like heroclix to be a very aggressive game, and doing damage is much more aggressive than not.
:cry: This thread is laughable. Just cry me a river and then find a new game to play.
"But I like superheros!" you say. Well...Buy a Gamecube and get the X-men game and the Spiderman game and *POOF* you have your perfect game.
:surprised Aww...did I hurt your feelings? Sorry.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 19:47
Originally posted by Angelofhate
People laughed at me when I fielded Black Widow. Nobody Uses black widow... well, I ended up winning because of her incapacitate on his "brick" keep pushing that brick, and eventually, he'll go down.
Good man!
It reminds me of getting ragged on when playing OverPower because I had "Tactic: Doubleshot"s in my deck. Laughter stopped when I KO'd a character with one . . :)
dolemite199
03/31/2003, 19:48
Shin-goji wrote,
"HC LIFE IS NOT ABOUT THE TOURNEY!"
And this is the most important point.
Brazil,
You are creating this discussion based on figure use in a competative enviornment. HC is not just a tournament game. Yes, HC tournaments are fun, but they are not the reason people play! For you to assume that there should be rules changes made based on "improper figure costing" or "figures being rendered obsolete" is completely biased because you are only looking at tournaments.
Of cousre people who play in tournaments will use the most effiecient and cost effective figures. They will do this because they want to win. That fact alone is why you never see a good player using "Juggernaut" in a constructed tournament because there are better and cheaper bricks. To say Juggernaut" is obsolete is correct, because in a torunament game he is. But changing the rules to allow you or someone else to play with him in a torunament because you thinks its unfair how "juggernaut" gets the shaft with the way the current rules are now setup is ridiculous. Tournament play and casual player are to completely different animals. You are trying to find a way to make torunament play like caual play. This will never happen because both play enviornments need to be autonomous of each other. That is how you keep the strictly torunament players happy and the casual players happy. They each play and enjoy HC in their own way. I think you need to find which play group you enjoy. You feel cheated and frustrated when playing in tournaments because of power gaming, correct? Please enlighten me if I am wrong. The cut-throat world of torunament gaming is just something you are need to accept. It is the nature of that beast, and will continue to be like that for as long as there is a prize! You should not feel bad for leading this crusade because it has sparked discussion, but you should also realize that these efforts for change are ultimately futile!
Sincerly,
Angelofhate
03/31/2003, 19:50
It's not about the figure itself, it's about how the PLAYER uses the figure.
Maybe the clix don't need fixing.
dolemite199
03/31/2003, 19:54
DON'T FIX THE CLIX... DON'T FIX THE CLIX... DON'T FIX THE CLIX... DON'T FIX THE CLIX!!!!
Everyone please chant that as a protest to Brazil's protest.
Yes, I am being a smart ###, but I like a good laugh every now and then.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 19:56
If you don't want to Fix the Clix, then you must aquix!
Darkspider
03/31/2003, 20:02
Here is a idea to fix perplex. perplex can only affect one one combat value at a time even with extra perplexers. So if you have harley and riddler you could only bump dam up with one perplex the other could not be used on dam cause that stat is already being bumped. so perplex could be used to increase you atk rating by 2, use one to raise your atk and one to lower defense. I think this would allow the power to still be usefull but not to chessey. (mmmm chesse)
SoRetarded
03/31/2003, 20:05
Originally posted by Brazil
...whenever you choose to use incapacitate you're making the same choice, you having to choose to do 2 less damage (depending on the figure), to use incapacitate. It's my expeience that doing the 2 extra points of damage is tactically more "incapacitating", than "incapacitate".
I dunno. Incapacitating a figure that went last turn and has a token plus, say Invulnerability seems like a really good use of incapacitate. You push them thus giving them 1 click that the invulnerability can't soak. This MAY get them out of invulnerability and move them into a range where your other figures can damage them. Plus even if they can't, that figure CAN NOT MOVE next turn, which means they can't push to attack you, or flee back to a medic (which really hurts if they were relying on phasing or leap/climb to get away). You can trap a piece for 2 turns who could normally get away, that seems pretty effective to me...
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 20:17
Don't fix the clix.
You must aquit.
shin-goji
03/31/2003, 20:20
Again, I must reiterate.
Brazil is an individual.
He is not representative of all HC'rs, Realmites, or even those who lobby to change rules. He represents himself, and you shouldn't judge a group of people because of what one person is simpering about.
We will NEVER EVER be able to change his mind. it's a fact. his blinders are on and is completely unopen to the fact that people will continue to play this game long after this thread fades away.
It really is just a game.
The tourney should only make up 5% of your HC life. the rest should be friendly play. That is what the game was designed to do.
SoRetarded
03/31/2003, 20:30
Stupid pushing submit reply instead of preview and board disabling edit... *grumble grumble*
So wait, the big cheap perplex concern is con artists, right? Well they need to be pushed to get perplex. Then, they all have it for 1, 2 clicks max, right?
What's the highest defense on a Con artist? 13 w/o perplex... 12 with it. So to have to roll higher then a 7 on that attack I would need an AV lower then a 5. Oh, that's scary, I don't think I have anyone on my team with an AV that high...
-or-
Okay, so they cluster them around an invisible girl you say. I outwit her defend. and not they are all clustered in one spot. Sounds like a perfect situation for an Enhanced / SHIELD Pumped Plusewave to me... blammo no more perplex... now all you have is a team of #####s.... erm, con artists, yeah.
-or-
Forget about them. They take 2 turns to be usefull (move first, move second and push to perplex) and need line of sight which means they are most effective on outdoor maps. If you can't get your Firelord or Thor, or whoever to sack your opponent for 4 or 5 damage before they can use those con artists then you weren't gonna win anyway. Besides, that (with an invisible girl to make sure you don't wax them too easy) is 85 points out of a 300 point game, roughly 1/3 of their team to get 3 points of perplex. Why bother with them?
They are a 1 trick (pun intended) pony. On an indoor map they won't be able to effectively see their bruiser enough. On an outdoor map, they can't prevent you from rushing in and taking out the con artists or hitting their #1 stunner for serious damage. I'm not saying that they can't be used effectively, but you don't have to worry about them being over-used. Anyone who wants to spend that many points to get an extra 3 damage is looking in the wrong place.
skeevo666
03/31/2003, 20:42
Originally posted by shin-goji
He is not representative of all HC'rs, Realmites
Are those related to Mooninites?
Inignot: You and your third dimension.
Frylock: What about it?
Inignot: Oh, nothing, it's cute. We have five.
[Pause]
Err: Thousand.
Inignot: Yes, five thousand.
Err: Don't question it!
Frylock: Oh, yeah? Well, I only see two.
Inignot: Well, that sounds like a personal problem.
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 00:24
Originally posted by Brazil
<<If you're so good and you win most of your games, then what is your beef.>>
Here let me spell it our for you YET AGAIN. My beef is that certain figures are rarely used because they are not competative due to poor figure costing or rules make certain figures non-cost efficient to play.
Are you saying that those figures feelings are hurt because they are neglected? Awwww, Brazil, I didn't know you were a crusader for the equal rights of clix everywhere.
If you feel so bad that these don't see much use, why don't you use them then?
Better yet, list them here.
skeevo666
04/01/2003, 00:36
"Big Daddy Brazil's Book of Neglected Characters"
featuring:
Hobgoblin & the little Glider that could
Constrictor's big day
Black Manta at the Fishin' Hole
Juggernaut's shame
:)
dolemite199
04/01/2003, 00:50
Skeevo,
LOL, that is priceless man, absolutely priceless! Man, I need to have a smoke after that one! Haha... Hobgoblin & the little Glider that could, man that is funny!
You have made my day man!
skeevo666
04/01/2003, 00:57
Originally posted by dolemite199
LOL, that is priceless man, absolutely priceless! Man, I need to have a smoke after that one!
OK, just don't bogart . . .
Originally posted by dolemite199
You have made my day man!
Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal and take care of yr waitress . . .
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 01:00
Man, I forgot how 'useless' Black Manta is. But I actually used him in a LEGION OF DOOM team the other day. It was a 300 point game. Way too hard to pull off with the current availiable clix. I needed some outwitters and perplexers and taxis. Sinestro at 100 points was a damage magnet for a few rounds. Exp Grodd lost his MC too early and Solomon Grundy was too slow. But I didn't lose because of Outwit or Perplex. I lost to superior figures that didn't have outwit or perplex and BAD TACTICS. I will play this team again to practice the tactics for it.
The NATIONAL CHAMPION Firelord team/s. That is what is currently working. Don't count on it to be in every champ team forever. Same can be said for Black Panther and any other borken figure.
The thing about cheese is that it may have holes in it, it stinks, and no matter what kind of cheese it is it usually tastes pretty good.
skeevo666
04/01/2003, 01:05
Originally posted by darius_dax1
But I didn't lose because of Outwit or Perplex. I lost to superior figures that didn't have outwit or perplex and BAD TACTICS.
I feel your pain. :(
(and it's squishy)
dolemite199
04/01/2003, 01:07
I usually prefer HEAD... cheese that it is. Get you mind out of the gutter Zeb!
Angelofhate
04/01/2003, 01:08
We've gone from a complaining thread, to a verbal assault on his poor whining, to making bad jokes about cheese.
We rule!
(what we rule, im not sure of)
skeevo666
04/01/2003, 01:12
Originally posted by Angelofhate
(what we rule, im not sure of)
Brazil
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 01:18
Originally posted by Angelofhate
We've gone from a complaining thread, to a verbal assault on his poor whining, to making bad jokes about cheese.
We rule!
(what we rule, im not sure of)
CHANGE THE RULES!!!!!!!!:disappoin wahhhhhhhhhhhh!
Then we will never know what it is that we rule (besides ruling Brazil).
dolemite199
04/01/2003, 01:26
We shoudl change the rules. I mean come on people, Brazil is so broken. Wizkids should remake his dial because he is undercosted. Every local torunament I go to has people playing Brazil, or multiple Brazils. That is just not fair. Ok, it was a bad joke, but I laughed... hehe!
Angelofhate
04/01/2003, 01:28
Well he only comes in Rookie version, and his dial is so mixed up that half the time HE doesnt even know what he wants.
Luckily we have the Whiners team to back us up, we just need to find a fellow Whiner to put next to them, then they lose all their actions for the rest of their life. And we (Shin, Dax and I) have the unique ability to outwit anything Borken.
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 10:21
I used a E Brazil at my last tournament. It got me the win but the judge took my LE away and banned me from all future tourneys.
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 10:22
Originally posted by skeevo666
"Big Daddy Brazil's Book of Neglected Characters"
featuring:
Hobgoblin & the little Glider that could
Constrictor's big day
Black Manta at the Fishin' Hole
Juggernaut's shame
:)
Why do these all sound like pornos...
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 10:25
I can also Perplex their impervious arguments, but only on my turn and I have to be within 10 posts of their last post.
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 10:32
Like I said, we can post here until we are blue in the fingers, or until the page count rivals that of a forum game. Brazil is a unique, as in singular not valuable, individual whose mind we will never change, who honestly believes he is part of a one-man crusade. Let him post to his heart's content, because unless there is a major uprising of Realmites who agree with him, or unless he gets employed at Wizkids, he'll never be able to get the changes he so desperately wants.
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 10:46
I just think of this as practice for all the other change the rules whines out there.
It does get kind of tedious I'll agree. Because Brazil doesn't realize that the rules are only broken for a small group and the rest of us are having the time of our life enjoying this game.
I still feel as though I have to respond to his points though. If not for him, at least someone else who may agree with Brazil could be disuaded from wanting to further the cause.
I hope Brazil just starts enjoying hero-clix as is. It is a good game with sound rules.
Originally posted by Brazil
1> "Perplex" only works on opposing figures.
2> "Outwit" can't effect any superpower on the Defense number.
3> "All figures can move half their movement and do ranged or hand to hand combat."
3a> "A figure with Running shot can move their full movement ie RUNNING shot, not walking shot, and still fire, without suffering the proposed -1 on their attack roll." Same thing with Charge...
4> I would suggest that RCE should not enhance the damage of the figure using it, but rather enhance the attack value...
5> If you want to make Incapacitate useful, then how about allowing an incapacitate figure to do their normal damage when incapacitating.
6> How about making leadership allow you to add+1 to any die roll for your team for the turn.
7> MOE team ability ... this is useless.
7a> Remove the wildcard ability and give them some regular ability...if you're out of ideas
8> If a stealthed superhero is hiding in the square with the gumball machine, and he's hiding behind it, shouldn't someone be able to target the gunball machine to shoot it?
I agree with your general sentiments but this is rather a scattershot approach to fixing the game. Anyway, specifics:
1. Another way of putting it would be to say that perplex could only be used to lower a stat (and that it would affect opposing characters during their turn).
2. Just reduce the effect of Outwit on Invulnerable/Impervious. Outwit on Invulnerable=Toughness. Outwit on Impervious = Invulnerable.
3. Or just use the same mechanics as MK Dungeon, i.e. making an attack costs 4 movement points. This works great and the rules have already been worked out.
4. This would hose RCE figures with 0 damage. Best to leave it alone.
5. That's silly. Incap should just do a proper job of incapacitating its target - i.e. give them two tokens not just one.
6. Too like Perplex. How about it being like Willpower for other characters - another character can push without taking damage because of your inspirational leadership?
7. MOE will get better if they make some cheap MOE CCE characters. They should change it to let the current ones combine their ranged combats as well as their close combats. That seems in character.
7a. Yup - wild cards are broken. Make it so they have to choose a team at the start and then stick to it. But they keep it if the original team member is KOed. Cuts out the rules hassle. But doesn't solve the stealth Ultron problem. A good/evil restriction is one way to fix that.
8. You can target the gumball machine. What's wrong is that it turns to rubble - it should just go away. Rubble should only be placed when blocking terrain is destroyed. It's only a stupid FAQ ruling that stops this being done right and this can be easily reversed.
As for Adventure Kit objects in marquees, I hope you weren't responsible for the latest FAQ ruling because that's not an acceptable solution. They should be allowed in constructed but not allowed in sealed - that'd be more sensible.
And everyone please note that MK just got a bunch of rules tweaks. And this game's rules are clearly not frozen in perpetuity either. The issue is not whether changes should be made but which changes should be made and how. An annual update would be sensible. Or every time they releease a new starter/rulebook. Updating the rulebook in the Indyclix set would be good.
Andrew
Dolemite wrote <<You feel cheated and frustrated when playing in tournaments because of power gaming, correct? Please enlighten me if I am wrong.>>
No Dolemite, I don't feel cheated or frustrated in tournaments. I studied probabilities in college, I finnished 3rd ( a long time ago) in my state HS Chess tournament, and I've played assorted strategy games all my life. I'm quite competent at this game. If I put together a team to try to win a game, it's rare I don't win or finish in the top 3 in tournaments. I do sometimes however go to these tournaments with underpowered theme teams. Or take slightly less powerful pieces for my own amusement. But there isn't a reason why we should have to make this tradeoff. This game wouldn't suffer in the least if Hobgoblin costed say 15 points less so that he would be competative. What negative thing would occur if that happened?
How about this: If Firelord costed about 40 points more for each version then perphaps firelord teams wouldn't have dominated tournament play back when there were only IC figures. Would that in some way have been a bad thing?
Oh my gaud...all the figures are useful in some way in their own right...people are using a wider variety of figures....are these things bad?
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 15:09
I'm only responding this time because I am such an active proponent against blatant ignorance. And when someone reports this post for attacking a fellow clix-er in a mean fashion, look up the word ignorant:[a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing].
Brazil basicaly wants a complete and impossible overhaul of a game for plastic miniatures because of his problem with the minority. His main gripe is with a few figures, not because there is massive, country-wide problems that everyone is experiencing with every character.
Juggernaut - He wants massive overhauls done with Outwit just because Black Panther can take away his Invulnerability. He's freely admitted such in previous posts. Massive rules changes because of problems with one figure.
Contrictor - Same as above because Incapacitate isn't good enough for him and is "overcosted" [a made up word].
Firelord - In reference to RCE. The less said the better. Why punish all figures with RCE just because one figure keeps ruining your tournies.
Firelord - In reference to flying. Because the Vulture-FLord taxi combo works so well, we have to punish all flyers.
Hobgoblin - I'll admit he's not the best figure to use. But why shold there be massive rules changes because you can't use this figure.
Shin-goji,
Juggernaug is not the only figure who has a high points cost based primarily on his having invulnerability. He was just the example I choose many threads ago.
Constrictor - it appears as though Wizkids overestimated the effetiveness of "incapacitate", hence most of the figures who have it were priced way higher than their effective play value. This particular proposed solution was to raise the effectiveness of incapacitate so that these high costed figures would be worth their cost. Spiderman, Constrictor, Hobgoblin ... all of these figures and many more are widely considered not worth their point value in terms of stratigical efficiency.
Firelord....there's enough firelord threads..
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:01
I will now start fielding those three in some of my teams. I bet I get it to work.
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 16:03
Your thread is titled, "Let's fix this game."
With millions playing the game, it doesn't need fixing. It's not broken, it's not even borken. You're wanting to make changes to suit your style of play because you are having problems no one else here seems to be having. I'll leave you alone now, because no matter what happens you really aren't going to make a difference. It's been educational debating with you, though.
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:04
Juggernaug must be a new Unique. I bet he's BORKEN!
Here's a couple of rules for you "Don't change things" people:
Rule#1
If Harley Quinn is standing at the top of a staircase, and Soloman Grundy wants up the stairs, he can not move to the adjoining stairs square and attack Harley Quinn to knock her out of the way, because according to the rules those two squares are not adjacent for porposes of combat. Harley can plug up the access to that roof square and there's nothing Soloman or any other non-flying/non-range combat/non-leap climb figure can do to attack her.
Rule #2
A flying figure can carry a leap/climb figure onto a square of blocking terrain, but the same flying figure can't carry a phasing figure onto the same piece of blocking terrain.
So are these good rules? No one should speak up and try to get either of these rules changed either should they? The game is perfect, if you think these rules are dumb you should quit playing because obviously you hate hero clix.
These are the sorts of comments I'm getting from you people. If you don't like the rules the way they are quit.
Well, I'm not quiting, and when I see dumb rules like those above, I as a player are going to post to wizkids to have those things fixed. And it doesn't mean I hate Heroclix...I like it, and I want it's flaws fixed so it will be that much better.
I don't want a big pile of Hobgoblins, and Constrictors, and Juggernaugts and other figures collecting dust. I spent money on these figures, and they're cool figures, and were cool characters in the comic books. I'd like to see them competative with the other figures so that all (whatever there is 168 different marvel figures will get used).
Weather they're made useful via rules changes, or via adjusting their combat dials or their points cost. What would be harmed in the game if all the figures were competative?
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:14
Originally posted by Brazil
Here's a couple of rules for you "Don't change things" people:
Rule#1
If Harley Quinn is standing at the top of a staircase, and Soloman Grundy wants up the stairs, he can not move to the adjoining stairs square and attack Harley Quinn to knock her out of the way, because according to the rules those two squares are not adjacent for porposes of combat. Harley can plug up the access to that roof square and there's nothing Soloman or any other non-flying/non-range combat/non-leap climb figure can do to attack her.
That rule makes sense to me. Wizkids is just concerned about the clix taking a nasty tumble down the stairs. Could you imagine the nasty lawsuit?
Well Darius, do you think it's a good rule that Soloman can't attack Harley who's standing in an adjoining square that he could move to if she weren't there?
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:22
Yes it is. Like I tried to illustrate the stairs are unstable footing and a successful attack would be hard to make. And unless you want to make special stair rules (what am I saying of course you do) the rule is fine as is.
Okay, and a phasing figure can change elevations but he can't change elevations onto blocking terrain....which a leap/climber can. Do you like that rule too?
Look there are 20 pages of clarifications and rules changes already. Those were made to fix "borken" situations. I'm just trying to point out 3 more. I'm not the first person to point out bad situations which need correcting, I'm even offering possible solutions. There are 20 pages of changes that have already been made because players have pointed out rules shortcomings. Do you Bark that the FAQ should be abolished as well? It came about because players like me have emailed and posted problems and Wizkids has taken steps to correct these. Why don't you start a thread that the FAQ should be abolished and the game should be played only with the original 16 page rules...after all the roll the dice catch all rule is there to solve any problem that could possibly come up.
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:33
I thought somebody had explained FAQ in this thread. The FAQ is to clarify rules, not change them. And I am not 100% familiar with the phasing thing, I will look it up tonight.
Graf Zemo
04/01/2003, 16:37
Looks like Brazil started his monthly whine thread while I was on a two week road trip to Texas. Despite being a member of the orthodox community, after reading this thread I am beginning to think we in the Clix Community may have a real problem. My soulution is FIX HEROCLIX - BAN JUGGERNAUGHT! :laugh: He must be broken 'cause a little ol 27 point Puddle Kitty can take him out like a chump!
The rules state that only Flying and Leap/climb figures are allowed on blocking terrain.
As for your unstable stairs argument...that doesn't hold water. If a staircase is 3 squares long figures can fight on the first 2 squares they just can fight on the last two....you know the one where one of the figures is on the landing and has better footing...of course at the bottom of the stairs where again 1 figure is on level ground and the other is on stairs they CAN fight.
And the FAQ does way more than clarify rules. It has made many changes. It has even reversed it's own rulings. (an example of this would be LOS and Barrier. In and early FAQ Barrier required LOS to 1 square...it has since been changed so no LOS is required.)
Allright brazil, I haven't posted in a while but you've promted me to get annoyed just enough to do so. Are you a simpled minded simpleton? God I love redudancy... Anywho. Not only is this annoying, but it shows your complete lack for intellect and ingunity. 1. Only a moron goes into a game without a flyer or leap climber. You deserve any and all pain you recieve for that harley quinn. 2. There's problems. So what? overcome them. you want to simplify the game to the point where it's no more a question of strategy, just who's the most uber for their points. RCE changes things up, makes it possible for you to take some hurt. Don't like outwit? Woop de doo. It's part of the #### game. You shouldn't play juggie anywho. He's stupid with no charge and battle fury. I love to take him out first-he's such a sucker for a good popping. The rules are as is simply so that everyone doesn't use the same uber team and the game becomes entirely pointless. The rules are there for things to have the POSSIBLITY of being changed up. You eliminate that, you eliminate the game. Oh yeah, BTW, you hate incap? Just go ahead and try a team using Exp Batman and Exp Klaw. 3 Incaps from stealth is great fun.
Brazil shot out:
And Marvel has Rookie BP. (cheap Outwit.), and he was a member of the world championship team along with Firelord. In fact most of the top team at the major cons featured BP and Firelord.
If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't the "World Championship" 2 guys turtling until they had to roll off for a winner?
Maybe the next FAQ or rule change should ban unsportsmanlike conduct from the game. Then we would all hear a lot less whining and have a lot more fun.
darius_dax1
04/01/2003, 16:56
I will still read up on the rule and FAQ myself. And the example you gave was apoor one. The FAQ reversed itself...big deal. It was only clarifying (NOT CHANGING) Barrier.
TychesCoin
04/01/2003, 16:56
Originally posted by Shade
. 1. Only a moron goes into a game without a flyer or leap climber.
I don't think this statement helps anybodies' case, shade. I huge part of Brazil's argument for rule changes (and part of mine as well) is that to win you have a fairly limitted pool of characters to build teams from. What you're saying here makes it sound like every good team has to have atleast one character from the leap/climb flier category which is a limitation brazil and I don't think the game should have.
Course I realize I'm just nitpicking and what you really meean to point out is that there are a myriad of diffferent ways to deal with harley at the top of the stairs including leap/climb, flying, ranged figures, TK/charge combos, mind control etc.
Darius_dax wrote<<I thought somebody had explained FAQ in this thread. The FAQ is to clarify rules, not change them.>>
See page 10 of the FAQ, it's title is "Clarifications and Rulings".
Furthermore, the third Ruling down is about the Adventure Kits, it states that "Adventurers Kit objects are tournament legal, but may only be used if both players agree to their use."
This ruling was made about two FAQs ago. Prior to this ruling people could (and did), go to marquee events and used their special objects for unfair advantage since their opponent may or may not have access to them. I argued in a thread, which many of the same people that are arguing here posted telling me to shut up about that too. About 2 weeks after that thread Wizkids made this ruling in their FAQ. Now I don't know if I was the first person to bring this to their attention, so I'm not claiming credit for this ruling, but somebody did. My guess is it was either by e-mail or by a post to a board like this one....maybe they even stuck it in a Dear Wizkids section.
Uh man. For the last time Brazil, your crying about Adventure Pack items had NOTHING to do with the FAQ ruling. It's just a clarification. That's all.
I honestly can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has. Guys, let it be. It seems no matter how much we argue, Brazil will come back with more of the same. We will never change his mind. I don't much care how he feels about this game. Know this: I want Wizkids and others to know he is the vocal minority. His opinions are not status quo.
-Rich
jedigeof
04/01/2003, 20:26
Blah blah blah... Do we have a page 13?
shin-goji
04/01/2003, 20:41
How about this. I have a solution that will make EVERYONE happy. i want everyone to gater around and forward this to every person you know.
For everyone but Brazil, use the FAQ and Rules as provided by Wizkids, and visit HCRealms to discuss any rulings.
For anyone who faces Brazil, if both players agree, you may use Brazil's rules ideas as house rules, which are tournament legal, but may only be used if both players agree to their use.
That way, Brazil will win and everyone will be happy.
I rather enjoy watching Brazil jump around like a crazed monkey that can't find his prozac laced bananas.
gavingossett
04/01/2003, 21:18
My group, The Chub Squad, has come up with three rules that we use regularly. These rules fix three problems:
1). Taxi, 2). Medic, 3). Scarlet Witch getting picked-off by Bullseye, while Vision stands in the next square.
Rules / Fixes:
1). Anyone can Charge Attack by moving half, but they suffer a -3 to their roll. If you have the Charge-Attack Power, No Penalty.
2). Rest & Recouperation (aka, R&R):
Any figure who is NOT engaged in HTH combat can take a move action and do absolutely NOTHING. Roll a die. On a 5 or 6, gain a click of healing.
3). Heroic Save
After a target has been designated for ranged attack, any figure Friendly to the target can immediately take a push and MOVE to intercept the ranged attack. The attack is still rolled against the original target, but the Intercepting figure gets to use his defense when calculating damage.
I encourage you to try these. They work superbly, and have made the game a lot more fun for us!
G
darius_dax1
04/02/2003, 00:48
Great 3 more solutions to problems that don't exist.
So your fix for taxi is to lessen the Charge, Telekinesis, and Flight powers. GREAT idea! Now Charge, TK, and Flight should not have cost as much when figuring a character's point total. Now will you reduce the costs of all the figures that have Charge, TK and/or Flight? Start appling new cost labels to your clix bases.
The fix for Medic is to make medics useless? Did you know that this will also make Regeneration, Support, and Steal Energy powers and X-men and Titans team ability less valuable as well? Again get the labels ready to re-cost the figures that have these powers and abilities.
And the fix for something that isn't broken will render Range, Ranged Combat Expert, Energy Explosion, TK, Super Strength and Throwing Objects, Super Senses, Energy Shield/Deflection, Barrier, Defend, Incapacitate, Psychic Blast, Shapechange, and the Batman an Skrull team abilities less efective to useless. Get more labels out and re-label all your figures with these abilities with a new cost.
Do you see the ripple effect taht can happen here?
But if these are your house rules, fine use them all you want and discuss them here as well. I would encourage anybody to adapt any house rules they want from this thread or any other.
But what this guy mentioned, and what Brazil has mentioned as problems are not problems. The game doesn't need fixing because it is not broken. It also does not need tweaking because it is not a nipple. The rules may need clarification from time to time and there may even be certain OPTIONAL (adventure packs) RULES that can be added. But Hero-Clix is fine the way it is.
gavingossett
04/02/2003, 01:40
But that's... O.K.
You are certainly entitled to you very strong and rather uncompromising and (dare I say) intolerant opinion.
I guess that's what makes the world go round.
Now, for the record, "it ain't broken" is a subjective statement, so we could go on for days with a "uh-uhh" / "yeah-huhh" / "uh-uhh" / "yeah-huhh" discussion.
Instead, I'll simply offer our rationale for making these three very simple rules modifications, and share with you all how the changes have in fact changed (and Not changed) gameplay...
1). Common Charge. We decided that every superhero should have the ability - by sheer nature of the genre - to charge into battle swinging and smashing. Sure, the recklessness should have a penalty, hence the -3. This rule has demoted the use of the Taxi to a more subtle tactic, rather than a commonplace mode of engagement. Read the comics. Taxi-ing is rare at best. And no self-respecting Hero is going to let Wasp carry him/her around all day, dropping him/her into combat JUST SO he gets the first swing. Rescore all the points? What for? It's a free Maneuver that Everyone gets! Only those (what, 8?) figures with Charge Power might object, but they don't have to Pay the Penalty! Get it?!
2). Rest & Recouperate. When was the last time Spiderman or (Heaven forbid) Hulk ran to a frikkin' S.H.I.E.L.D. for a quick Mid-Combat Healing? Huh? HUH? N.E.V.E.R., that's when. BUT--- very often Hero's take a break from combat to recouperate a litte, just to run back into battle a bit refreshed.
Does this Replace the Medics? Do a little math, nay-sayers. A Medic can heal an un-heard-of 1-6 Clix. R&R can only heal 1 Click Max IF (and only if) a 5 or 6 is rolled. Sooooo..... A Hero blowing a move on R&R get's approximately ONE click back every THIRD turn. And someone suggested that this makes Medics obsolete. Fah, I say!!
3). Intervention. This is just a tiny cupfull of Common Sense. I'll site two examples:
First: I re-interate the Vision saving his (for Pete's sake) WIFE in the midst of combat. Need I say more?
Second: Hulk and puny She-Hulk (who is now down to only 1 remaining click) are side by side, bravely facing the cursed enemy, Dr. Doom. That ruthless Doom unleashes his full Wrath-from-Hell to take Shulky out of the game, but - Alas - what's this?!? Hulk throws himself in the path of the oncoming DeathRay!!! Just to save puny SheHulk!! Ever seen something like that happen in the comics?
If not, I will conclude by strongly suggesting you rifle through the 50c boxes of you local comic store till you find a comic book you really like and ......... Read It.
Bottom line: These rules make the game more fun for The Chub Squad, and DO NOT (contrary to UNpopular belief) "ruin" the mechanics. They, in fact, heighten our enjoyment of an already wonderful (albeit not-perfect) game.
Enjoy these suggestions, or disregard them. It's your game. Above all, have fun.
GG
Angelofhate
04/02/2003, 01:46
This isnt the comics.
This is HeroClix. It is based off of the characters found in the comic books, but it in no way is trying to follow the continuity of comics (if it was, collossus would be dead.)
The rules were playtested over and over again and finally set in stone as a game that was fun to play.
I've said it before and i'll say it again...
If you don't like the rules, make up your own house rules... but keep them to yourself!
darius_dax1
04/02/2003, 01:53
I was disregarding your rules. I do read the comics and have been for around 27 years. Also, if you actually read my post. I said that you and the Chubb Factor were welcome to your house rules. I just had no use for them. They are poorly constructed and do not take game balance into consideration.
Why don't we give everybody toughness based on your movement assumption? In the comics these characters can really take a beating.
Your point about the game not being like the comics is absurd. This game is BASED on the comics. The game does not have to follow the comics to a T. The game has to, for ease and simplicity, follow certain guidelines and rules (of game physics if you will)to keep the game flowing and fun. I would hate to see the dial for some of the characters that aren't quite right by your standards.
gavingossett
04/02/2003, 01:57
Did he just say, "Keep your house rules (i.e.new ideas) to yourself"?!?
Well, Angel-of-Hats, if we all kept our ideas and suggestions to ourselves, you'd be all alone on this (allow me to remind you) - FORUM.
But I know that WizKids will be sure to reward your fanatical resistance to new ideas!
By the way, who said anything about "continuity"? The subject is "Fix The Rules", which most certainly refers to the idea that many people think there's always room for improvement.
But HEY! I know you'll tow the Party Line once again when 2nd Edition of the rules comes out, with all of the suggestions that WizKids gleaned from creative fans.
Til then, stay your same sweet self!
Angelofhate
04/02/2003, 02:01
I didn't mean to come off as "keep your house rules to yourself" meaning dont share... but dont force them onto other people like brazil is trying to do.
I don't mind reading new ideas for house rules, some I really like, but I DO mind reading that "wizkids you screwed up, this character shouldnt be able to do this and ive come up with some new rules to make it that way."
Pardon my lack of clarity.
I'm all for new ideas... But I'm not for fixing something that isnt broken.
darius_dax1
04/02/2003, 02:08
I have an idea for the ultimate fix:
I think that the point system for Hero-clix team building is too restrictive. Besides, basing a team using some imaginary point total is absurd.
My fix would be that you get 100 points for every birthday you have had. That way we could all really build the teams we all want.
New Powers update:
Mastermind: It is not fair that Doom must inflict this damage on his minions. Doom should also be able to inflict the mastemind damage on all figures that cost less than he does no matter if they are your opponents team or Doom's own.
Doctor Doom update:
Dr. Doom can double your build total in Doombots only. He's rich so he can afford it. Build your team using your age multiplied by 100 points and if Dr. Doom is one of those members then add that many points of Doombots to your team as well.
Angelofhate
04/02/2003, 02:09
2100 pts. Lets see, 200 for Dr. Doom. Leaves 1900... 6 300 pt sentinels and... V Abomination.
Plus 2100 pts in Doombots.
I would Own.
gavingossett
04/02/2003, 02:10
I agree completely.
For the record, I love the game. It's easy & fun. I think WizKids did a fabulous job with it.
I'm also convinced that Nobody's Perfect. No Game is Perfect. My suggestions are designed to add a little flavor, not re-write the recipe.
I'm tickled that some folks like just the way it is. And please note that my suggestions do not in ANY way take rules OUT of the game. They don't even negate any existing rules. They are simply a little paprika.
And I'm spent.
GG
skeevo666
04/02/2003, 03:43
Originally posted by gavingossett
The subject is "Fix The Rules"
Hello!
If you read the entire thread up til when you posted, you might've seen that most of us don't think the rules need fixin :)
I think if Brazil had titled "Let's Fun this Game" Or "Let's have fun with this game" he would've saved himself a lot of typing time.
A thread titled "My house rules" or "my rules modification" is going to attract interested parties (and repel disinterested ones) but one titled like the one we're on now is going to bring out both ;)
Now about "This isn't Mystique" . . .
Originally posted by skeevo666
you might've seen that most of us don't think the rules need fixin :)
A handful of fanboys does not constitute a significant majority. And you can't count the game's developer amongst your number - he's made it fairly clear that taxis are something that he's not happy with and would like to change.
My impression is that most tournaments and games are run using some kind of house rule, even if it's just no-dupes. I was recently asked to judge the forthcoming UK Championship at Gencon Europe. When determining the format for this, I felt it should be vanilla and by-the-book. But there is a special rule for this event, "players' teams must must consist entirely of EITHER Marvel or DC HeroClix, mixed teams will not be allowed". Is that a fix? It's hard to say because the rules on Marvel/DC mixing are fuzzy. But it was certainly intended to fix a potential problem of too many Batbot teams, i.e. Ultron/Doombots copying the Batman team ability.
The consequences of not fixing a game when it needs it can be dire. The Buffy CCG was a stinker from day 1 and has just died. The computer game Master of Orion 3 is a turkey and has gone down in flames. These games had huge potential and their forums still have fanboys that insist that they are wonderful. But the market has spoken and even the fanboys will soon be forced to move on.
Heroclix is not so bad but it's not perfect either. And it has plenty of competition breathing down its neck - mainly from other WK games, in my experience. MW and MKD have better rules than HC and it shows. Why is HC the Cinderella of the WK line? I think it's because an external licence and so doesn't get the same TLC as their own brain-children. And the licensors are apt to cause trouble by pushing their own agenda.
To coin a phrase, "united we stand, divided we fall". Brazil clearly loves the game as much as anyone - he wouldn't be here if he didn't. He just shows his concern in different ways - tough love, you might say. There's clearly room for compromise here as the game is bound to get changed and tweaked - it's happening already. But these changes are not likely to go as far as some would like and that's good because there's a downside to change too, as folk correctly point out.
Andrew
Originally posted by Angelofhate
The rules were playtested over and over again and finally set in stone as a game that was fun to play.
Are you a playtester? Is anyone here a playtester? The rulebook credits are:
INTERNAL PLAYTESTING: Jim Long, David Chase, Kevin Perrine, Jon Leitheusser, Isaac King, Will Littrell, Lucas McWilliams
EXTERNAL PLAYTESTING TEAM LEADERS: Dan Chinnery, Patrick Dolan, Kevin Goddard, Adam McIver, Keith Marston, Mike Schmidt, Larry Stewart
Jon L is the current developer while Kevin Goddard is the Realms guy, right? Who are all the others? Where do they play?
Andrew
Ya know, I'm gonna back up AngelofHate on the "keep the house rules to yourself" line. I absolutely agree. I don't much care what rules you put in place for friendly games. That is your opinion and choice.
Now, if you are in a tournament situation, and you want to use house rules, that's a different story. If you want Outwit to cost an action, or if you want to increase someones cost by 15 or 20 points, or maybe even ban a figure all together, you've got problems. Nevermind that figures cost what they do based on their stats. Nevermind that they are also figured with whether or not it costs an action, or how their power is worded. Changing this game to somehow "level" the playing field does the exact opposite. You've now adjusted one figure, while leaving the others alone. How is that better? How does this fix the game? What exactly are you fixing?
-Rich
<<Nevermind that figures cost what they do based on their stats.>>
DC Fan, the problem is that the formula Wizkids uses to calculate figures cost, which I agree with you, is based on their stats, is mathmatically incorrect. They may have based it on their stats but they have incorrectly created the mathmatical formula.
An example is Vetran Electra (IC) VS Unique Electra (IC).
The Unique version has Equal or Better stats in every catagory, and has 2 points higher attack value...this gives Electra approximately a 30% higher probability of making a successful attack. Yet she only costs 2 points ( 6% more).
This is mathmatical proof that their point costing formula, based on their stats is mathmatically flawed.
I'm not saying they did the math wrong, what I'm saying is the person who designed the formula did it incorrectly...the formula is being used right, but the formula itself does not accurately model the tactical efficiency of the different figures.
Another part of this formula which is incorrectly modeled is the values they seem to have given "Incapacitate and certain team abilities", it appears that they assigned a high value to "Incapacitate..this would explain IC Spiderman, IC Daredevil, Kang, Klaw, Constrictor and Hobgoblin's seemingly overcostedness.
And it seems they didn't put much weight on the Wildcard team abilities, which has left Doombots, and several of the other Doom team ability figures as point cost values (or undercosted).
If Incapacitate were made more effective (Which judging from the high price those figures who have it have seemed to pay for it), then those figues with it (which for the most part are overpriced, would become more of a value....hence wizkids current figure costs would become more accurate.
(This was my motivation for wanting to change the way incapacitate works in this thread.) I really wouldn't mind keeping incapacitate just the way it is, if the figures who are getting charged a bunch to have the ability would have their point costs lowered so that they would be worth playing in a tournament enviornment.
Brazil wrote:
"...based on their stats, is mathmatically incorrect. They may have based it on their stats but they have incorrectly created the mathmatical formula."
Be careful Brazil. You've gone from complaining about the game to questioning the very basis in which it was created. You have no proof that this exists. Your example of Elektra has merit, yet proves nothing. Anyone can see U is better than Vet, but there isn't any statistical evidence to show what you propose is correct.
The playtesters may have originally underestimated the power of incapacitate. Maybe we as players underestimate it now. I'll tell you one thing, double arrow incapacitate is a dangerous weapon in a skilled players hands. I this case, it's worth every bit of the points.
-Rich
Svensven
04/03/2003, 13:23
Well, in my experience, these are some of the fixes that could help. NOTE: I dont think they are necessary, but they'll help.
1) Remove the rule that flyers can still do ranged combat actions when in base to base. Make everyone in base to base have to do melee combat actions. This makes basing Firelord a way to lessen the hurt.
2) Allow Psychic Blast to be used for close or melee combat actions.
3) Allow Pulse Wave to hit stealthed Characters
4) Move the taxi ability from fliers to Super Strength characters. Most of the SS characters are ground based melee guys, who are already disadvantaged in this flyer-based world. This would also make guys like Vision great taxis (at 100+ points!)
5) Remove the Batman Team ability all together. Nobody should be able to have two speed-based powers, and the Batman team allows that.
6) Allow poison to ignore defensive superpowers.
7) Allow Energy Explosion to target empty squares (ie so they can hit Stealthed characters... its an explosion after all)
I find the Outwit fix proposed here interesting (ie make it not able to outwit defensive abilities).
Matt
Some of you might find this post...enlightening. This is written by a person who is currently playing a group forum game with me. To set up this dialog, let me explain briefly what happened. I'm playing a team made up of a bunch of rookie evil figures including Kingpin and Toad, and 6 Con Artists. Another of my teammates had 4 Con Artists and a Medic amongst other figures....last turn I perplexed Rookie Kingpin's Damage up to 8 and KOed Vetran Rogue who had 1 previous click on her from a push. The same turn, my teammate perplexed the Medic's Damage up and KO'd a Fresh Rookie Cyclops with one attack. This dialog was written by one of our opponents who's staying in character talking from Aquaman's perspective...(who is currently surrounded)
<<Aquaman looks around and thinks to himself, "Great Titan! Did I just see a completely inexperienced Kingpin knock out a battle-hardened and ultra-powerful mutant X-Man? And there, a doctor, a DOCTOR! just killed the Alpha-Level Mutant and leader of the X-Men known as Cyclops! And how? Because bunch of cheap harlots dance in the general area? This makes no sense! In no universe could this possibly make any sense? Now, I can understand how someone like Plastic Man can make his teammates more effective by using his incredible powers to distract his foes. Even the X-Man Gambit, using his distracting cajun dialogue, could inspire his team and confuse his enemies. But a bunch of normal, human women? That is patently ridiculous. This battlefield is impossible to navigate. There is no way to tell who the threats are. Batman's mission dossiers are useless. I'm getting out of here. Of course, that is unless one of the women shakes in such a way to double the speed and power of oh, say, Toad, in which case I am truly doomed."
Flash rests, Plastic Man longs for the days when his skills make him unique, or at least rare.>>
heroclixguru
04/03/2003, 14:25
Brazil you are a pitiful excuse of a player.
This game is not the comics Brazil...stop trying to make it so.
-Rich
Wow heroclixguru, you sound like you know me personally. Is there any intellegent argument that goes along with that remark, or are you just tossing it out there as a random insult?
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 14:56
Here's a random insult. You are a poor player, Brazil, in the realm that you constantly belittle a game you continue to play, and attack the creation system used to lay the foundation for the game when you, yourself, have no proof positive or proof undeniable on how the stats are created, although you are happy to speculate on aforementioned system as though you were instrumental in the design and creation of Hero-Clix figures, which you are not. Nothing you do, never ever, will have an impact on the game as it stands, though it is your inaliable right to try, flying inthe face of common sense. Firelord will continue to be used. Outwit will continue to take away defensive powers of expensive, powerful figures for other cheap figure to whittle said brick down to a pebble. Incapacitate will continue to be used by players around the country. Perplex will infiltrate the HC genre on both sides in a cheap and affordable way, and the game will go on. Most importantly, we will perservere under duress and have fun with this game, a collectable miniature battle system, which is not governed by the comic book bible as though passed down from Jack Kirby himself, but is merely an interpretation of said comic books, which we will all know and love.
DC Fan, those weren't my words...those were the words of another player first hand witnessed Con Artist abuse in action.
Here's some other comments from some of the other people playing in the same forum game:
<<Con artists have changed the game for the worse. I definitely intend to generally outlaw them from local games....when was the last time you saw a con artist in a comic book? Heck when was the first time? Con artists need to go.>>
<<I say if we play again no conartists.>>
<<It's ridiculous. I'm not going to say it ruins the game, but I will say that it changes the game to such an extent that it makes Perplex-based strategies vastly superior to any other strategy. Basically, it's either play with con artists or lose.>>
<<well as far as the FACT that 11 point hookers are overpowered, that was known to some people since 03-07-2003.
thank you guys for showing that to the rest of the until now not convinced people.>>
<<whilst playing this game me thinks that 11 point perplexers ruin the day for someone. its bad to see a medic take down superheros.>>
<<Yeah the abundance of perplex has a good chance of ruining heroclix. To watch a medic drop a hero in one shot tells me something is horribly wrong. Yeah there are ways of fighting the con artist strategy, but it is really annoying.....anyway.>>
<<Who needs an Abomination when 4 or 5 Con Artists can make a medic the exact same?>>
<<Realistic in a comic book sense is what I'm talking about. How can a group of Ho's make Kingpin so strong? I understand distracing a hero, but boosting one because someone is acting insane? It really needs to be adjusted. It wasn't a problem really until the Con Artists...before perplex was really rare.....now every monkey has it.>>
None of these were my commets...though mine run right along the same lines. I'm not the only one who feels this way....and these were just players in 1 forum game...I'm sure this isn't the only game where Con Artist abuse has caused people to be unhappy about cheap perplex.
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 15:04
Originally posted by Brazil
[Long list of whiney comments about perplex snipped] snip-snip-snippity-SNIP!
None of these were my commets...though mine run right along the same lines. I'm not the only one who feels this way....and these were just players in 1 forum game...I'm sure this isn't the only game where Con Artist abuse has caused people to be unhappy about cheap perplex.
I'm sure this isn't the only thread where someone complains about the game because they can't come up with a strategy to defeat a clix with three to four clix of life.
Reply to Shin-Goji's last post:
Or maybe Wizkids will read threads like this one and realize there is a problem and fix it. Like they did with special objects. The were made aware of the problem, and they took steps to fix the problem...now it's not a problem anymore.
Perhaps if they read enough comments from paying customers like those above concerning cheap perplexers, they will take steps to do away with that problem as well. I posted my complaint in "Dear Wizkids" for them to read, and I took the extra step of posting a possible solution to the problem.
Instead of telling me to shut up about this (Which I assure you isn't going to happen), why don't you instead make intellegent aruments about the merits of keeping Perplex and incapacitate and Taxiing the way they currently are, instead of blanketly attacking the whole idea of change. If change is for the better...then what's wrong with that. You and most of the people arguing against me, aren't arguing the merits of the rule, you're just willy-nilly tossing out insults.
I've posted actual quotes from actual people who are unhappy with the status quo of cheap perplexers. Not just PEOPLE, but fans of, and paying customers of this game which we all like and don't want to see ruined by imballanced figures like the Con Artist.
Angelofhate
04/03/2003, 15:16
As for "making kingpin stronger", I'd like to think of it as the con artists distracting whomever kingpin was hitting so kingpin could hit them easier. If you hit someone in the leg, it isnt as good as punching someone full force in the face while they are distracted.
While you may be perplexing UP your own pieces, essentially it's distracting the opponent to make you more effective.
11 Pt Perplexers rediculous? No. They have it for ONE click. If you cant get someone across the field and hit someone with a 13 defens for one click of damage you need to rethink how you play the game.
Shin-Goji wrote:
<<I'm sure this isn't the only thread where someone complains about the game because they can't come up with a strategy to defeat a clix with three to four clix of life.>>
Shin-Goji I did 8 damage with Rookie Kingpin...not 3 or 4. 8 Damage is enough to KO about 75% of the figures in this game. Vetran Rogue was only down 1 click, and I KO'd her by doing 8 damage in only 1 attack with rookie Kingpin. And I didn't need to roll anything special like doubles or knockback off a building...it was a strait attack needing only to roll a 7.
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 15:22
Originally posted by Brazil
Shin-Goji I did 8 damage with Rookie Kingpin...not 3 or 4. 8 Damage is enough to KO about 75% of the figures in this game. Vetran Rogue was only down 1 click, and I KO'd her by doing 8 damage in only 1 attack with rookie Kingpin. And I didn't need to roll anything special like doubles or knockback off a building...it was a strait attack needing only to roll a 7.
Yesssssss. We have NEVER, EVER seen Kingpin knock anyone out. I mean all he has done in the comic books is sit there and provide extra actions for his henchmen while shrugging off minor damage from pesky superheroes. It's not like he's strong or anything, he's just a big guy, right?
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 15:25
Now, you want me to provide an argument for keeping cheap perplex? Fine.
So Kingpin can be as much of a threat in the game as he is in the comic books.
So Hobgoblin can harrass Spider-Man like he did when he first showed up, handing Spider-Man his red and blue butt every issue.
So figures that are sitting in your collection, gathering dust, can be brought out into the playing field deadlier than ever and completely underestimated by an unsuspecting opponent.
THERE!
DC Fan Wrote:
<<Be careful Brazil. You've gone from complaining about the game to questioning the very basis in which it was created. You have no proof that this exists. Your example of Elektra has merit, yet proves nothing. Anyone can see U is better than Vet, but there isn't any statistical evidence to show what you propose is correct.
The playtesters may have originally underestimated the power of incapacitate. Maybe we as players underestimate it now. I'll tell you one thing, double arrow incapacitate is a dangerous weapon in a skilled players hands. I this case, it's worth every bit of the points.>>
While I agree with you that double arrow incapacitate is much better than single arrow incapacitate, and may even make incapacitate worth doing in some cases. The double arrow argument does nothing to help IC Spiderman, Constrictor, Hobgoblin, Klaw, or any of the other current figures who are overcosted because of it.
As for my not having proof that the point costing formula is incorrect. Yes I do. I read a post from the game designer that said he was using a computer based formula that was handed down to him from the previous game designer (The one that did IC), and he said he didn't alter the formula. And I have as proof that the current formula doesn't accurately model the tactical effectiveness, figure comparisons like U Electra VS V Electra and U Cyclops VS E Bullseye. The Electra one is much easier to quote the probabilities for and offer as an example. There are many many others.....if you really want me to I'll show you more...but Electra should be enough evedence.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 15:35
I am a fan of the game.
I am a paying customer.
I am happy with hero-clix the way it is.
According to Brazil this is all the proof we need to keep things as is. Because his argument was so weak that he had to cut and paste quotes from other people who can't knockout a character with 3-4 clix. Mighty sad.
I have argued against change and given sound reasons for this. Changes in one place will unbalance the game. But of course Brazil hasn't understood my posts because he thinks I've insulted him by disagreeing with him. There will be no convincing his guy because he is slow.
I have played a few Xplosion only games. Perplex is not an issue. The game is more balanced with the release of this set. Re-direct your energies, Brazil, into learning how to play instead of whining all the time.
Shin Goji wrote: <<So Kingpin can be as much of a threat in the game as he is in the comic books.>>
You know I don't recall any comic books where Kingpin needed a bunch of Hookers standing behind him cheering him on to get him to perform up to snuff.
If you think Kingpin is underpowered, then complain that "Kingpin is underpowered"...but don't fix things by piling a bunch of Con Artists behind Kingpin to make the game work properly.
The whole idea of Con Artists boosting superheros into being incredibly powerful is rediculous.... it takes away from the game.
Darius wrote: <<Re-direct your energies, Brazil, into learning how to play instead of whining all the time.>>
Where are you getting the idea that I don't know how to play...if you read the thread above....I am the one that KO'd Vet Rogue with Rookie Kingpin. I don't suffer from an inability to take advantage of silly rules and underpriced figures (Like Con Artists). Winning isn't my motivation for this thread...it's making the game balanced so that all figures can be used with equal effectiveness, and that the game is "Comic Realistic"...I mean I started playing this game in the first place because the little plastic minatures of comic heros I collected comics of 25 years ago caught my eye.
And what is "Weak" about pasting in quotes from other players who are also botherd by cheap perplexers? DC Fan and others in this post act like I'm the only one complaining about this, and that I'm doing this for selfish reasons....well that's pretty much proof that I'm not alone in my thinking.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 15:44
Again...THIS IS NOT THE COMIC BOOKS!!!!!
The Con-artists are the ones with the power, yes, but if you use your imagination you could justify this. Say they are the Kingpin's "Con-artists";) , They were out on the street plying their trade when all of a sudden they spotted Spider-man swinging towards Kingpin's home base. They immediately picked up their cell phones and called the boss to warn him. Good old Wilson used hte advanced warning to prepare. He is now wearing electro-shock brass knuckles and set a few more traps to blast Spidey into next week.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 15:49
I got the idea that you can't play because you keep whining about the rules. What I should have said is that you don't like to play and are afraid of winning a game. This game is based on the comic books. It doesn't follow it exactly.
If you get your way and the game keeps on changing everytime you have a rule problem it will no longer be Hero-Clix. It would be Brazil-Clacks or something like that.
But that's not what happened...what happened was Hobgoblin Taxied Kingpin up adjacent to Rogue (who was pushed), I positioned Kingpin to be in a position where all 6 of my con artists had LOS to Kingpin, and then they perplexed up his damage to 4 times it's normal level.
You can make up whatever you like...but that's what happened in the game....and FYI some of the Con Artists in question didn't even have LOS to Kingpin....so I guess they wouldn't have been phoning Kingpin....oh and in your example...how is it that 6 phone calls is 6 times more effective than 1 phone call letting Kingpin know that Spidey was there?
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 15:53
The point is obviously lost on you. You are a hopeless case. Try to write the story that goes into your scenario using the info that you have provided. I won't do your thinking for you.
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 15:59
Your ignorance of the subject of which you speak of is nothing less than flying in the face of common sense. You ask for support for an argument, and when it is given to you, you shoot it down, using the same logic we use for why the game is what it is. You want Hobgoblin to be more powerful, so WK provides support pieces that allow him to be more powerful. That's not good enough for you. You want WK to stop production of current Hobgoblin figures and to produce new ones, forcing everyone to buy more packs to get the figure, thus costing everyone more money. You want rules to be changed in such a way that it is uneconomical for everyone to be educated about the sweeping changes you want. Not everyone has access to the internet. But you want people to accept this.
It's not going to happen. Ever. In that I take great comfort.
Hobgoblin could be made less overcosted by adjusting incapacitate to be more effective....that wouldn't require anything you suggest.
And I shot down Darius "Made up Story" idea because it isn't accurately portraying what is happening....if Thor hits Toad...you can imagine Thor hitting Toad and make up a story if you want. If a Shield agent uses his team ability, then you can make up a story of how the Shield agent is providing fire support. But if Riddler Enhances the abilities of Bane using Perplex...you have to make up a lie explaining how really Riddler just distracted Batman so it appeared as though he was Enhancing Bane. Or in my case, you get to make up some silly story about 6 Hookers calling Kingpin on the phone.
The Fact is that I used the Hookers PERPLEX power to boost Kingpin's damage up to 8!! That is what happened. If you make up any kind of story, you're making up a lie. Why can't perplex be changed into something that actually PERRPLEXES!!! NOT ENHANCES!!! Con Artists have no magical superpowers to ENHANCE up someone's damage. I have no problem with someone using perplex to lower a target's defense....this is an accurate representation of what they are doing. Hookers could go..."Hey look at these:
( * )( * )
Which may have the effect of destracting the Batman and making it easier for Joker to hit him....but for this to work the Con Artist needs LOS to Batman....not LOS to Joker.
Part of the way perplex can be used I have no problem with, but the unrealistic part I do....it is not only unrealistic, but by making Con Artists so cheap, they are ruining the game.
(In my opinion...and appearently in some other peoples as well.)
Kirsarge
04/03/2003, 16:14
I have to say that I'm loving this debate, and I'm of two minds about the whole thing. I really do like perplex, but it does seem silly that any low-level character can take out any high-level character in one shot, just because there are a lot of con artists around.
I have a solution that is less drastic than Brazil's, and wouldn't change the game drastically. Simply let Perplex effect anything but damage. That would allow for the fun aspects of perplex, like perplexing up someone's range or move to nail your opponent when he thought he was out of range, but would stop the patently ridiculous result of a Toad and 5 con-artists killing the Hulk.
Just my input.
Angelofhate
04/03/2003, 16:14
That's not fair. No one -ever- quotes my posts. I feel so... left out.
:p
k0rnkid15
04/03/2003, 16:17
Brazl dude, just give it up. ur obviously on everyones bad side for being a b*tch and posting 'lets fix this game'. id smack u if i could, but sadly i cant. i hope ur b*tching bites u in the ### one day.
Kirsarge
04/03/2003, 16:21
Oh, and one other thing. Brazil, my friend and I are coming up with a taxi solution. It consists of two parts:
1) Fliers can not taxi other fliers.
2) New super-power: BULK - Characters with this power can not be knocked back in close or ranged combat. These characters can also not be carried by flying characters unless the flying character also has super-strength.
Bulk would go to guys like Thing, Hulk, Juggernaut, Solomon Grundy, etc. Pretty simple and effective I think. This would get rid of the silly Robots-carrying-other-perfectly-able-robots thing, and also the "Wasp grabs the Thing and carries him to battle" thing.
skeevo666
04/03/2003, 16:22
Originally posted by Brazil
But that's not what happened...what happened was Hobgoblin Taxied Kingpin up adjacent to Rogue (who was pushed), I positioned Kingpin to be in a position where all 6 of my con artists had LOS to Kingpin, and then they perplexed up his damage to 4 times it's normal level.
Dude, you need to seek professional help. You're the only person I know who feels guilty about winning and the tactics thereof . . .
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 16:23
How about this.
Kingpin does 2 clix of damage normally.
Because some figure with perplex, ANY figure with perplex, distracts Spider-Man in an unpredictable manner, Spider-Man's defenses are not up to speed, allowing Kingpin to hit harder, because Spidey is not defending as much as he normally would, because he is distracted.
If I punch you in the face, you'll experience pain. But if one of my friends behaves in a manner that distracts you and makes you move your head to the side, I hit you in a way that strains your neck AND bruises your face, because you are not ready for the blow. It's called a sucker punch.
Nightcrawler77
04/03/2003, 16:25
ITS A GAME WHERE PEOPLE BEAT EACH OTHER UP WILE WEARING TIGHTS!!!!!!!!!
WHO CARES?????????
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!
I use this game as a way to relax and talk with my friends. It helps us take our troubled minds off stuff. People just need to let this go and just play the game as it is, a fun way to waste your money!!!!
:)
I agree that maybe some figures are more broken then others....thats why I play random teams. This way you
can make statiges for people like Blob and such. You learn a lot from playing this way. All I have to tell you people is have a fun time palying the game and read Shin's thread titled "Lets fix this lame" for a good laugh.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 16:25
Originally posted by Angelofhate
That's not fair. No one -ever- quotes my posts. I feel so... left out.
:p
Brazil, stories, what comic books are made of, are lies. Use your imagination to justify what is going on in front of you. Use your imagination like you do when you make up these ridiculous rules changes.
k0rnkid15
04/03/2003, 16:26
brazil face it, ur tactics r lame. they got u beat.
Kirsarge
04/03/2003, 16:34
Originally posted by k0rnkid15
brazil face it, ur tactics r lame. they got u beat.
Read the thread, llama, Brazil's tactics are winning.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 16:36
Originally posted by Kirsarge
Read the thread, llama, Brazil's tactics are winning.
Actually Brazil's tactics are whining.
k0rnkid15
04/03/2003, 16:46
ya there cheap tactics. they got u beat was bout the guys sayin he was cheap slappy. get the facts right be4 u criticize. and brazils tactis r whiney.
Kirsarge
04/03/2003, 16:46
Originally posted by darius_dax1
Actually Brazil's tactics are whining.
Ba-dum-bum! Thank's folks, darius_dax1 will be here all week. Try the veal, and don't for get to tip your waitress!
Kirsarge
04/03/2003, 16:48
Originally posted by k0rnkid15
ya there cheap tactics. they got u beat was bout the guys sayin he was cheap slappy. get the facts right be4 u criticize. and brazils tactis r whiney.
Sorry! I guess I don't speak idiot. Or is it iDi0t?
Will someone get this kid a dictionary?
Hey thanks for sticking up for me Kirsarge...I feel bad now for picking on you in our last game.
:grin:
Skeevo wrote:
<<You're the only person I know who feels guilty about winning and the tactics thereof . . .>>
It's not about winning. I just want a fair playfield where all the figures, though diverse are playable, and non-competative with other figures. Realism would be nice too.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 16:49
Wait, that's no waitress!
It's the Con-Artist acting in a Perplexing manner.
k0rnkid15
04/03/2003, 16:51
kirsage wats rong, you cant read internet slang retard?
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 16:52
All the figures are playable. Remember this: Not everyone is created equal. Some of these characters are stronger or smarter or faster than any other.
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 16:55
Originally posted by Brazil
It's not about winning. I just want a fair playfield where all the figures, though diverse are playable, and non-competative with other figures. Realism would be nice too.
What you ask for is impossible. Some figures will be more powerful than others. That is just the way of the game. You want realism? In life someone will always be better or more powerful or better looking than you are. Then there will be someone above that person. And so on and so forth. This one idea is reflected in the game.
MindsEnd
04/03/2003, 17:04
I've been reading this post for awhile now and all I can say it see my sig below for my current opinion on the thread.
Oh and kornkid15 give me your home address so I can send you a dictionary so you can learn to spell so I can read your posts.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 17:07
That's the kind of horse they ride in Argentina.
Heroclix?
04/03/2003, 17:09
I can't BELIEVE that this argument has gone on as long as it has. First of all, let me say that 25 pages of nothing but flames should REALLY be deleted.
To Brazil-->
If you hate the powers as they are now in HC, why don't you stop playing? Nobody forces you to play it, and in the long run might actually save you a whole heap of money. You are whining about the game when you aren't creative enough to think up a totally unique way to get around a problem. Starting a thread with the words "Dear Wizkids..." detailing a problem that your feeble brain can't find ways around is a surefire way to get flamed, and you succeeded in perfect form. You and your kind should learn that if there's an aspect of a game that turns you off, you don't have to play said game. And EVERY game ever made will have its opponents and proponents. It's the only the proponents that will continue to play that game.
To everybody else-->
Brazil had every right to express his views in this forum. And when you post something, isn't the expectation that constructive critisism will be swapped? Even IF most of the forums are swamped with people who want to change the game in some way, you need to learn that these people have a RIGHT to do so, as long as their posts don't contain random ramblings. If you think that the topic is stupid, move on to another post. You don't need to post on the topic just because you clicked on the topic to see what it was about. What you SHOULD do is just ignore these posts and posters and discuss armies, strategies, etc. instead of posting personal attacks on a person because he dared to "speak" his mind.
In closing, everyone here (except myself) needs to grow up and live with John L. and the rest of the HC-making team. If there is something that needs to be changed, rest assured that they will change it. If not, the game will go unchanged. You all need to learn to live with whatever decisions these guys make.
Remember, we have army guys in Iraq dying so that a threat to this nation's interests are protected. And here you guys are, arguing that a PLASTIC GAME needs to be changed for 25 pages!!!! People's lives are at stake and you think that this issue is above all of that! ABOVE A HUMAN LIFE!
Again, I say to all of you, GROW UP!!!!!!
MindsEnd
04/03/2003, 17:10
I guess this will also make me get attacked but I know Brazil personally and play at the same venue. He's not a bad guy and I can see some of his points as valid and some I don't agree with.
darius_dax1
04/03/2003, 17:16
I am just replying to this thread with my views. Is it as important as world events? No. But neither was your post Heroclix?. We have a right in this forum to post on a thread we disagree with just as Brazil has a right to originate the thread in the first place.
MindsEnd- Brazil may be an ok guy, but I just don't agree with him. I am trying to dissuade anybody else from buying into what I think is garbage.
I_Blame_You
04/03/2003, 17:25
Originally posted by Heroclix?
In closing, everyone here (except myself) needs to grow up...
I hope you're kidding about that.
shin-goji
04/03/2003, 17:30
I_Blame_You, that is too funny.
Heroclix? wrote:
"If you think that the topic is stupid, move on to another post. You don't need to post on the topic just because you clicked on the topic to see what it was about."
Ya know man, it's that type of opinion that ultimately would ruin a game like this one. I for one want everyone to know, including Wizkids, that this guys opinion is not the norm or majority. It is the minority. Darius_dax1 is right, we have the right to post here just as much as Brazil has the right to start the thread. We can defend this game just as much as Brazil is trying to tear it down.
-Rich
MindsEnd
04/03/2003, 17:35
Most of what I see here is people going on tirades about how someone wishes to make changes in the game. I think the new con artist is gonna unbalance the game and came to the opinion on my own. Yes there are was to beat it but the game is gonna get tired and old playing the same team every week to win LE's or just have fun.
Yes I know I can just quit if I don't like it or I can go play with friends if I don't like it. Luckily for me I found a venue I like to play at. Right now I think the best thing would to stop getting worked up every time you see this thread pop up and feel the need to argue with Brazil about what he thinks are flaws in the game.
The people that don't like what Brazil is preposing already say your in the majority and if you stop posting to here the attention will die.
Now I've got more bats to hand out cuz the horse is getting ripe.
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.