Time for a rant... Opinions, please... (long)

[DaLuvster89]

I need you guys to talk me down, here.
Perhaps I'm taking this a little too seriously - I need to relax, take a couple of deep breaths.
O.K. Better. Let me try and state this in a rational manner, not getting too angry, just stating the case.
Let me start by saying that these two characters I want to discuss aren't my "favorites"; I don't have some type of bias as to making these figs uber-powerful b/c I like them so much. I have gripes with these figs based on the game itself and the realm it is played in.
Basically there are two things that have me very upset with this new Heroclix expansion, "Xplosion."
The first: Scorpion. His sculpt is really cool - he looks as if he is about to blast away with his tail.
His dail is on point in all of his versions - Leap/Climb, Toughness, Incapacitate on the Vet. Cool - he shouldn't be uber-powerful. He's Scorpion. He gets his butt whipped by Spiderman on a regular basis.
Now that I think about it, has he ever fought anyone besides Spiderman? Maybe Daredevil a couple of times. Now I'm not necessarily a Scorpion fanboy, but it seems to me that his whole story revolves around the world of Spiderman - it was J.J. Jameson who Scorpion blames for being trapped in his Scorpion suit, correct me if I'm wrong. At least in the earlier Spidey days, Scorpion would blast a hole in the side of a bank, try to rob it, then Spidey would come swinging in to save the day, cracking wise at Scorpy all the while. I think his dail, stats and range reflect the character's abilities really well.
BUT - and I'm looking for a legitimate answer, here: Why aren't ANY of the Scorpion's versions a Sinister Syndicate team member? Is there any other hero that Scorpion has fought against on a regular basis besides Spiderman? Am I mistaken, or wasn't Scorpion actually one of the MEMBERS of the Syndicate? Is E Scorpion's Masters Of Evil team ability simply a mis-print? When has he ever fought alongside the MoE? This has me very upset. It's like making a Rhino and not giving him Syndicate team ability either. If Scorpion doesn't have it, why the heck does Vet. Bullseye? Something is just flat-out wrong here, and I'd really like some kind of explanation.
Speaking of Bullseye, that makes for a good sequay to my next gripe: The new Daredevil. I've only got the R and V versions, and just checked out the E version on the whizkid's website. It seems that there are some signifigant changes to the Red Devil, mostly the Addition of Leap/Climb and an exrta Lightning bolt for ranged attacks. The V has more Super Senses and Incapacitate than the Infinity Challenge version, and also has an extra click of life. All good things - the Veteran Xplosion Daredevil should be more effective than the IC Veteran version. Should be. The fact of the matter is, he flat out isn't. I'll still use IC's Vet Daredevil 10 times out of 10 over this "new and improved" Daredevil. Why? It's as simple as the Spiderman team ability on the IC Daredevil Veteran as opposed to NO team ability on ANY version of this new Daredevil. Does Daredevil deserve to be a Wildcard? Lets see. Has he spent signifigant time with the Fantastic Four? Well, Reed Richards made him his costume at one point in time that I'm sure of. They are all heroes stationed in NY city, and when big threats come along, they have fought along side each other. This is just from my miniscule knowledge of their relationship, but I could see Daredevil taking a click of healing if one of the FF were to be felled in battle. Hydra? Sure - DD has radar-like senses that can be interpreted many ways. A plus 1 to an adjacent figure's ranged attacks could be interpreted as DD's radar senses locking on to the target, then pointing out it's most vulnerable place to be attacked to the adjcent attacker. Avengers? Sure! DD has battled along side Captian America many times. I could go on and on, even incorporating the DC team abilities in a mixed environment (Superman team ability - sure. Again, Radar-like senses), but here's the point: If you are going to update a previous figure and make them better, why wouldn't you incorporate what was already the best quality of the original? Why fix what wasn't broken? Besides, who else are you going to give Spiderman team ability to? (If not DD, who?) There's a serious shortage of Spiderman team members (5), especially if compared to Doom team members. (Counting Doombots, it's rediculous). Why can't those of us who like themes (good guys vs. bad guys) have some good guys who kick butt with a solid team ability? Say they gave this current DD Veteran the Spidey team ability. Say it added 20 points to his overall value, making him 77 points. Is that really too many points to represent Daredevil at the top of his game? More importantly, let me ask this: How many people around here are legitimately excited to play the new Daredevil? Would you play him if you pulled him from a booster in a sealed Tournament?
Now, imagine for a second that he has the Wildcard team ability. Sure he costs more points, but ask yourself the same two questions. Does your answer change at all?
Thanks for taking the time to read this rant. On the whole, I'm really satisfied with Xplosion so far, but these two issues are sticking out like a sore thumb to me, and I was hoping to get some of your opinions on these issues. I'm hoping for some good discussion, opinions, and not to get too many "quit your whining" responses.

[MeatLoafX]

I'm a Daredevil fan and I don't think the team ability is necessary. I don't want a 70 point Daredevil. He just wouldn't be worth the points, even with the ability. I'd much rather have some options for 56 points and under and the Xplosion DD is a terrific representation, IMHO.

There are 1000 changes that "could" be made to figures, but playability is tops in my book.

Just my 2 cents.

[DaLuvster89]

Thanks for the response, MeatloafX.
I respect your opinion, and for the most part agree. His Stats are great, and a better representation of the character.
But let me ask - Would you rather use the new V Daredevil for 57 points or the 50 point version with a Wildcard?

[Agent_X]

There is this amazing thing called spacing, try using it next time, It is incredibly difficult to read what you said.

[Darth Sabre]

You know, I'm going to have to agree, sort of, with both of you.

Playablity has to be be the major focus of the figures. In reality, not every figure can be made playable, because not every character in comics is good. But I believe, especially with the wildcards, that we have come too accustomed to team abilities (Wildcard, Bats, Supes, Anti-Supes) as a whole.

However, it seems to me, that, not only DD and Scorpion should have the team abilities mentioned above, but should Spider-Man always be a member of his own team?

[bullseye100]

i was thinking the same thing about scorpion--i thought he was in the sinister syndicate????

[MeatLoafX]

I'll play the new Daredevil - the leap climb and the 2 arrows mean much more to me than the team ability. Maybe it's just my personal preference. I know I'd never play a 70+ point Daredevil, though and I have a feeling adding the ability would make his point cost too high to be worthwhile.

[bjmc1975]

I'll confess - I was mystified at Scorpion's lack of a Sinister Syndicate affiliation. I considered that a lock on par with Storm being in the X-Men.

Spidey, I think, should have his own team at least on the E and V versions, though maybe not the rookie. He's teamed up with people often enough for it to be a trademark of the character. Daredevil, on the other hand, I think should only have it occasionally - while he does team up with Spidey, he doesn't that often with anyone else, and I think of that team ability more as "Wild Card" than "Spider-Man".

If we throw out logic and go with ability, though, then I think Daredevil should have the Superman team ability.....

[DaLuvster89]

Deadpool X wrote:
There is this amazing thing called spacing, try using it next time, It is incredibly difficult to read what you said.

Thanks for the sarcasm.

MeatlofX - I can see where you are coming from - maybe the Vet shouldn't be 70 + points. And I prefer Vet Black Panther over Experienced for the same reasons (Range, Leap.) But couldn't the E or R versions have had the team ability? Just one of his versions?

Darth Sabre - I actually was going to include U Spiderman in the rant, but I felt it was too long as it was. I agree - now we have 6 Spiderman Versions (REV, 3 Uniques) and only 2 of them have the team ability! I'm really excited about the new Spidey's Dail, (Super Strength, Super Senses, Defend) but if he had the team ability he'd be awesome. Maybe close to 100 points, but still playable. There's just not enough good guy Wildcards. Heck, in DC we don't have any yet!

[DaLuvster89]

bjmc1975-
The Scorpion thing has me dumbfounded. Can anyone who is more "in the know" tell us if he has ever fought along side of the Masters of Evil? I'm just hoping that it's a mis-print...

[MeatLoafX]

MeatlofX - I can see where you are coming from - maybe the Vet shouldn't be 70 + points. And I prefer Vet Black Panther over Experienced for the same reasons (Range, Leap.) But couldn't the E or R versions have had the team ability? Just one of his versions?

Sure, that's a logical addition for one version.

[DaLuvster89]

Sometimes in heroclix logic goes right out the door.
It's unfortunate - on the whole, I'm really happy w/ Xplosion. There's a lot of figs I can't wait to play. But it seems that it may have been a little rushed, and some things just aren't intuitively implemented...

[RavenProject]

Actually, he was.

For exactly one issue. Don't recall the number, but it was an Avengers issue in 1982 that involved She-Hulk needing to fight them in her bra and panties.

But at least Scorpion was in the Masters longer than Blizzard, Bullseye or Mister Hyde were in the Sinister Syndicate.

Quick aside... I personally would have preferred that the Masters and Syndicate swapped team abilities. The Spider-Foes were all about dogpiling on Spidey, while the Masters were more of a "team." But that's just me...

-J

[webhead817]

Well, with Beast they made the decision that his middle version should be Defenders vs. Avengers, in part because there are plenty of good Avengers already. Maybe that is why Scorps is MoE instead of SinSyn, MoE can use all of the help it can get playability wise.

As far as wild cards go, there aren't really that many on either side. The number of different character's that are wild cards is fairly small, and a number of Wild Cards only have it in one version, so it seems like they are trying to keep that in check. Looking at MoD, realizing it's obligatory for all Doctor Dooms and Doombots be MoD, there aren't that many others, one version of Klaw, one Ultron, some Puppet Masters, Taskmaster now. On the Spidey side, someone said that Spidey gained his "team" ability during the Secret Wars, so that's why the u and the Vet from IC have it. So, any version that comes from before that probably won't have it. (I'm convinced the new u. Spidey is the ultimate version, due to his AE.)

[DaLuvster89]

Thanks for the info, Raven Project.
Some interesting points there, as well. I kinda like the team ability swap Idea - it does make sense if you think about it.

[Kaitouace]

Hmmm. Maybe there'll be a Mac Gargon LE with Sinister Syndicate Team Ability?

Personally I think Scorpion got a little shafted considering he's basically a "better" Spider-Man. He's just not as smart. His stats aren't too bad but they should have given him Super Strength for at least his first click or two. He is stronger than Spider-Man after all. One of his figures (Exp. version probably) could have benefitted from Poison. He's had more than just the club tail and the blaster tail.

[Nevest]

It's refreshing to read an intelligent thread about what someone doesn't like instead of the much more common "So-and-so Sux" threads. I really appreciate that you elaborated on what you didn't like and why. So many people who have problems with HeroClix figures seem to not have that ability.

I'm not totally sure if Scorpion was ever on the Masters of Evil but I am positive that he was with the Sinister Syndicate many times. It is confusing that he doesn't have that team ability on at least one of his versions.

I would say that they made the Daredevil figure better, which in turn made him cost more points. They probably only considered adding the wild card ability to the veteran version but didn't think Daredevil should cost that much, so they left it off. I think he's an efficient character for the points and will probably see lots of casual play. I personally like playing themed games but not every hero who is mostly a loner has to have the wild card ability on their veteran version to make me happy. I do understand you point though.

[DaLuvster89]

Webhead817 -
I agree that MoE needs all of the help it can get, but couldn't at least one version of Scorpion be Syndicate?
I gotta disagree on the MoD team members. Also on that list are 3 Annihilus - or is that Annihili?:) and Spiral. That's a total of:
3 Doc. Doom
3 Doombot
3 Annihilus (unless the rookie doesn't have it)
3 Taskmasters
E Ultron
E Klaw
U Spiral
V Puppetmaster

Thats 15 or so with Doom, as opposed to 5 with Spidey (Sandman V, E Black Cat, U & V Spidey, V Daredevil).

Advantage : Bad guys.

[remywokeup]

Every version of every cahracter represents the character at some point in their comic book career. The V Daredevil from a time in Matt's life when he was jumping from team to team working with other chracters (including Spider-Man) so they gave him Spider Man team.

This time around, they picked loner, Hand Ninja fighting points in his life.

Scorpion, however, is mis-represented by his lack of Sinister Syndicate. That's as clear as day. Wether it would make hime better or not, who cares? It would make him Scorpion, and that is, after all, what Jon L's job is. Making Marvel characters into Heroclix figures.

Here, he kinda failed.

[DaLuvster89]

Kaitouace wrote:
"Hmmm. Maybe there'll be a Mac Gargon LE with Sinister Syndicate Team Ability?"

An interesting thought. Perhaps I will have to get off of my butt & out to some tourney's to find out!

Nevest wrote:
"It's refreshing to read an intelligent thread about what someone doesn't like instead of the much more common "So-and-so Sux" threads."

Ain't it the truth! I'm glad things are going well so far on this thread - let's keep it up!

One of the main reasons I'm so upset witht the Daredevil thing is that 2 weeks ago, played in a 3 - way 2000 pointer w/ some friends. I went w/ an all good guy team, and decided to dust off the 'ol Vet Daredevil. He ended up being one of the better pieces on the team, KO'ing both V Magneto and V Bullseye.
So I got kinda excited - "Cool! a new Daredevil with 2 ranged attacks and Leap Climb!" thinking that at least one of his versions would have the Wildcard. I'm just disapointed is all, and I just know that personally, I'll keep using the Wildcard when choosing a Daredevil.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by DaLuvster89
Thanks for the sarcasm.

The sarcasm may not have been warranted, but the criticism is still valid (although you did admit that it was long in the title)


At least it's not like grade school where your penspersonship is being reviewed . . .

[Kaitouace]

Hmmm. Maybe there'll be a Mac Gargon LE with Sinister Syndicate Team Ability?

Personally I think Scorpion got a little shafted considering he's basically a "better" Spider-Man. He's just not as smart. His stats aren't too bad but they should have given him Super Strength for at least his first click or two. He is stronger than Spider-Man after all. One of his figures (Exp. version probably) could have benefitted from Poison. He's had more than just the club tail and the blaster tail.

[Kaitouace]

Oops. Reposted old message. Guess that's what happens when you leave your computer for an hour, then come back and press the "Back" button. Heh.

[DaLuvster89]

Skeevo666-
To be honest, I don't know exactly what was meant by the "spacing" - between paragraphs, maybe? Too wide?
It looks fine on my pc, but I tried to edit the post and can't seem to, so...

[skeevo666]

well, I dunno how it looks to you, but there are no paragraphs as far as I can see; it's just one mass. Do you preview your posts before submitting?

[bizarrome]

I agree, Scorpion should have Syn. Sindicate on at least his R and V versions. He has fought Captain America a number of times too. He teamed with Mr. Hyde against Cap once, and Mr. Hyde has the Spiderman Enemy on his E version and the Masters of Evil on his V version. Although I don't recall him being with the masters of evil either. Spidey Enemy for Scorpion would have worked to I guess.

New Daredevil is fine the way he is. I loved the old version as far a playability goes, I have taken down some serious oppoents with the old Daredevil. Now I am glad the new one is the way he is, because my old set of DD's is still very playable and not totally outshinned. So what I see is a new version that I only have to buy the V version and use him like a unique, you loose the team ability but gain leap/climb and the second ranged combat attack for only seven points added.

Also, on the team abilities, they leave them off for the purpose of not over pricing the fig, or over powering him. Example: Unique Flash is the fastest fig in the game with Hypersonic speed throughout his dial. He can hit until he misses, move - then hit - and move again. I have fielded Jay a number of times and teamed him with the V version of Flash and the two together can mop the board in short order. Now the V Flash (whom we shall call Barry) has lots more abilities than just Hypersonic speed, he has force blast to represnt his ability to spin the air and slam you good. He also has Energy Shield deflection to represnt when he spins to protect himself, and Super Sense to allow him to dodge at super speed and a click of outwit to simulate when he has used his speed powers to out manuver or ground an opponent. and the JLA team ability allows him to move without being charged an action. This makes up for Jay having a 20 count move ability while Barry only has 11. Barry's fig utilizes his powers better but Jay moves faster because he doesn't use the tricks Barry uses. If you gave Jay the JSA team ability to increase his defense value, he would be nearly unstoppable, because he could move, hit as many times as he can, and move again to a higher defense. Yes Jay is classic JSA, but the JSA team ability would make him very high priced and nearly unstoppable.

My question is this, They made a Spiderman REV set and all the new Spidey's have been uniques. This I like, same for the Hulk. But Wolverine gets a whole new REV Set in each expansion. They should be uniques. Granted I don't mind because I am only going to get the V Logan fig and use it like a unique as I have Daredevil's new V fig and it is less expensive cash wise for me, but why the differnce. I think the new Daredevil should have been a unique and all the new Wolverine figs should too. Anyone know why they are doing it this way??:rolleyes:

[DaLuvster89]

Yeah, I previewed it. Wrote it in wordpad, then pasted it in.
I see that there is one big paragraph on DD, and one sizeable paragraph on Scorpion. Good thing I'm not getting paid to post here, huh?

Good thing it was brought up again - the thread was getting far too interesting. Now I'm being sarcastic. :)

[Kaitouace]

Wow. About Unique Flash. I never even thought about that before. Just imagine if he DID have the JSA ability and after dealing damage he could just park next to whoever and get serious defense. You'd NEVER hit him. At least until you stomped whoever had the high defense on his team. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason he doesn't have JSA.

[DaLuvster89]

Bizarrome -
From how you were describing Jay's Hypersonic attacks, it seems that you may not have it right. Jay can move, attack once for one click of damage, then move again. He can't attack a second fig after he has already attacked. He needs to start adjacent in order to use the consecutive attack, and after he misses, he can't move away. People suggested that he should have had JSA team ability mostly b/c only one other fig in DC has it (V Hawkman) and it seemed pointless to have a team ability that requires 2 figs to be adjacent when only one fig in the whole DC set has it.
The Wolverine thing - in this set he's only a Unique. I didn't mind Logan so much after I got a good look at his dail(s), and he is a different "persona" of the Wolverine character. They keep putting them out b/c he's so popular.

Thanks for your comments on DD. Everyone has made comments that have really calmed me down a bit, allowing me to see adifferent point of view. Thanks!

Sorry, Skeevo666 if my last post came across as mean. (The one before this.) It's just that I didn't want this thread getting "de-railed".

[bizarrome]

Yeah, he is only 101 points and V Flash is 98 points. for 199 pts. in a 200 pt or better game you can really mop the floor with your oppents in quick (forgive the pun) order. See Jay and Barry have a 17 point defense and Barry has outwit to cancel out powers so the two together are already a force tro be reconned with. Add in a higher defense and it's over buddy. The funny thing is I teamed them because I liked the old days when they teamed up a lot in the old JLA/JSA Team ups and just went WOW! When I say how fast the two figs took every one else out. I would like to see a Kid Flash fig too though....

[Grinner]

I've gotta come in on the side of the new DD. Personally, the main thing I use my Daredevil for is harrassment. I can't count the number of times (just about every time I've used him, in fact) that I've wished that DD had Leap/Climb. Bounce in, tie up their shooter or big hitter, then move on to tie up someone else when my big guys get there.

I don't know anyone who isn't surprised to see no Sinister Syndicate on Scorpion. Yes, MOE needed someone who can actually fight HTH, seeing how most of their team members are ranged combatants. But for none of the Scorpions to have the Syndicate ability?

And as for Taskmaster & MoD...that's his power in the comics. His photographic reflexes allow him to duplicate any move he's seen. I thought it was an excellent way to represent that.

[bizarrome]

Actually what I usually do is run the two back and forth accross the board and hit once and move away then follow that up with a hit from the second fig and trade off opponents each time. With their high movement, if you are close to a wall or something it is easy to move accross the board and back and find a saftey zone to stop in between turns. then while your opponent moves his most powerful fig into your saftey zone you clear the board of the others and then you put V Flash and Hypersonic speed pelt him while U Flash jabs and moves on him. With V Flash's outwit canceling out his power and using force blast to keep any other figs at bay. The two are a powerful combo.

I do have a question though. Can force blast be used against the attacking character as well as another adjecent opponent??

I stand corrected on the Weapon X fig.