That isn't Mystique! [Archive]

drop19

03/28/2003, 19:46

If you try playing Changeling or a few Skrulls it becomes apparent quickly why shape change would be near worthless for Mystique. With shape-change all she'd really have is a 16% chance of not being hit. If your enemy has a prob. controller she'd be smoked in a heartbeat.

Compare this with the range of options perplex grants her. She can increase her own attack abilities or decrease those of an enemy. She rolls up on Cyclops while looking like Jean and gets a better shot at him. Maybe when Pyro is taking a shot at Gambit Mystique has also changed herself to look like Pyro so Gambit doesn't know where the attack is coming from. Gambit is so thrown off that when the real Pyro hits him there's not a lot he can do.

It's not the character of Mystique that is borken so much as it's the power of Shape Change (and no I'm not trying to petition for a change ;) ). Shape change is a fairly weak defensive power that is more of a slight bonus to the few characters who have it. Perplex allows Mystique versatility in movement & offensive capability. It takes a bit more imagination to figure how the perplex is influencing the situation but it more accurately reflects her devious character. It would be great if she could have both abilities but in an either/or situation perplex makes her a potent and accurate character.

Paptimus

03/28/2003, 19:52

SHe doesnt use her shapechange in that manner. She often hides and attacks when the persons back is turned. So Stealth and Perplex look great on her.
I don't agree with you here, Manchine. From the top of my mind, here are three of the most famous fights in which she was:
-X-Men vs Brotherhood of Evil, in Days of Future Past: she lured both Prof X and Moira McTaggert by taking the form of a Policewoman.
-Avengers vs Brotherhood of Evil, in the Avengers annual with Rogue's fist appearance: she takes the shape of Nick Fury to confuse Iron Man.
-X-Men vs Freedom Force at Dallas: she takes the shape of Storm to make the X-Men surrender.
And during most of the Claremont era, she spied Val Cooper with a secret identity. For me, Shapechange, being a skrull-like power to prevent enemies from attacking you fits her power perfectly (though I agree a 6+ save SUCKS). I know the 90's writers turned her into a less subtle character (I hated her in X-Force), but she should have had Shapechange at least in her earlier incarnations. Man, they even gave this power to Changeling (who can't take other people's shape)!
I must admit I'm also quite bothered by those strange dials we sometimes get, but X-Plosion still have very interesting and fun pieces.

Doomtoy

03/28/2003, 19:59

It occurs to me they could have solved this problem by simply putting her on the Skrull team.

Then again, everyone would have screamed about how she isn't a Skrull, and how she belongs on the Brotherhood team... *sigh*...

drop19

03/28/2003, 20:13

Then again, everyone would have screamed about how she isn't a Skrull, and how she belongs on the Brotherhood team... *sigh*...

I would've been first in line! Give me Freedom Force or give me...ehhh..I dunno. ;)

The one thing she's really missing IMO is leadership as she led the Brotherhood/Freedom Force team forever. That said, I'll probably have Magneto in the mix with them so no big deal. Perplex gives her enough chance to help out teammates that I can explain the leadership in that direction, plus with so many Brotherhood abilities the extra move is slightly less important.

Have I mentioned how happy I am to have Brotherhood/FF? :D

Mournblade

03/28/2003, 20:25

I'm beginning to think that we should sticky a thread with an explanation about Mystique.

Yes, it's stealth and perplex. Yes, it's better than the craptastic power mockingly called 'shapechange'. Stealth and perplex are leaps and bounds better than her having shapechange, so why are people arguing?

Let's compare. Shapechange allows you to avoid an attack 1-in-6 times. That's it, no more. Stealth allows you to hide and never be targetted by a ranged attack. Winner: Stealth. Additionally, perplex allows you to change yours, your teams, or your opposing team's combat dial. Winner: Perplex.

If they had just named 'shapechange' something else (might I suggest, UselessFreakingPower), then there wouldn't be a new one of these threads every day. :)

As such, Mystique as presented is wonderful. She will be on fun teams, she will be on tournament teams. She is valuable, viable, and versatile. She is great. Get over that she doesn't have a gimpy power named Shapechange, but has something better. Much better.

Also, might I add the recommendation of the 'Search' button. :D It really is a marvel when asking questions.

Mad

03/28/2003, 20:29

I like the figure and think the representation is ok. It would have been better to have at least a click or 2 of shape change (toward the end of the dial) if nothing, to appease the crowd.

kdog13

03/28/2003, 20:34

she uses shapechange to get the perplex effect the power she HAS is shape change therefore should have started with the shapechange abilty and developed perplex later on (casue before effect)

Mournblade

03/28/2003, 20:40

Originally posted by kdog13
she uses shapechange to get the perplex effect the power she HAS is shape change therefore should have started with the shapechange abilty and developed perplex later on (casue before effect)

So, if I understand you correctly (a giant assumption, I know), Mystique should have a couple clicks of shapechange before she gets perplex because shapechange allows her to perplex people?

So... why not just give her perplex? Oh, wait! They did! :grin:

If she uses shapechanging powers to perplex people, why should she NOT have it, again? :confused:

Dalmatio69

03/29/2003, 00:30

I agree. If therye going to make an ability called "Shapechange", then why are they using other powers to represent it?

They should either change the name of shapechange, or change the power to make it a more accurate power. Either way, Mystique deserves at least one click of it.

Angelofhate

03/29/2003, 00:37

Not to be a nitpicker or anything... but the "shapechange" power doesnt exist in Marvel Heroclix as of yet.. just the Skrull team ability..

So giving her the shapechange ability would mean they'd have to release ANOTHER rules expansion in every single xpansion booster... that costs money!

DarkMalakim

03/29/2003, 00:38

Also her Shapechange isn't limited to only faces and appearance. Check out her brief stay with X-Factor, she created armor w/spikes to fight her old lover Sabretooth.

shin-goji

03/29/2003, 00:39

Easy, Shapechange is a fairly lame power. Stealth and Perplex, MUCH more accurate representation of her role in the Marvel universe as a leader and trouble maker. Just giving her shapechange just makes her a skrull.

lavinah

03/29/2003, 00:43

Well, I think that Mystique *should* have shapechange, cruddy power or not.

But, I love her clix version. Both Perplex and Stealth are fitting.

Really, shape change should be a defensive power, and then she could have all three.

Perhaps the bigger issue is that shapechange needs to be changed; I've suggested that it lets you copy 1 printed value or 1 power from any figure within LOS. Then it'd be fun.

-lavinah

hisshers

03/29/2003, 00:54

Mystique not having Shapechange is like a version of Spiderman without Supersenses.....Uh oh. Wait a minute....

Rufus

03/29/2003, 01:58

Well a lot of you are forgetting that there IS no shapechange in Marvel (at this point in time)...just like storm doesn't have force blast because there is no force blast in marvel yet.

While the universes of clix are 100% compatible, for whatever reason, WK has chosen to leave some powers unique to each universe as of this date.

I for one am happy they did not give her shape change, as the way she is now is far more useful.

Also, I agree that the combination of stealth and perplex better represent mystique. She is a very clever leader, and does not simply limit her shapechanging powers to defensively avoiding attacks.

She uses her powers to infiltrate, cause confusion, lead her enemies into ambushes, and if need be hide. IMO, Perplex and stealth are 100% accurate for mystique.

Sweetcurse

03/29/2003, 03:13

people...shapechange is useless and you all should be thankful she has peroplex instead. so what? wizkids invented shapechange, then realized it sucks, looks at whining fans, and does the elegant thing to do, not use the power! If you people would just get off your horses you would see that this is just their head designer saying "sorry, you guys are right! shapachane bites, well give you something useful instead." Sure, it feels weird not having shapechange, but in the end, its better that way. I hope i never have to see another fig with that power again...unless they revise it.

Spinebreaker

03/29/2003, 17:43

As far as I can see all the versions of mystique have a couple of blank slots that could easily have had shapechange.

Perplex and Stealth are VERY appropriate. However, not giving her at least ONE click of shapechange is lazy...

The way everyone assumes we want her to lose her powers and just have shapechange is being an idiot.

WK messed up. They were being lazy and the product suffered. Frankly people are just making excuses for WK.

1 click of Shapechange would have helped her survive at the end of the game, would have represented the character better...

Just like Storm not having Force Blast and Smoke Cloud. Lazy.

timclix

03/29/2003, 18:03

I agree with spinebreaker. Alot o the newer figures seem to have ben misrepresented in the sake of suppling favorite power combos to the players. Who NEEDS yet one more figure with perplex?

I think shapechange would be cool if you could copy one colored power from another figure, and place it over your own, like the treasure chests in Dungeon work. If you have BCF and take Incapacitate, you lose BCF for that turn.

drop19

03/29/2003, 18:05

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
The way everyone assumes we want her to lose her powers and just have shapechange is being an idiot.

WK messed up. They were being lazy and the product suffered. Frankly people are just making excuses for WK.[quote]
First off I don't think anyone is an idiot for wanting her to have shape change. Second, Some of the arguments have been worded in a way that it could be construed is that the perplex power in particular made no sense. Since they take up the same slot it's an either/or situation and the perplex route is a more useful power.

Maybe the reason we are "making excuses" is because we like the character. Mystique has made very strong showings in the games I've played so far and I don't think that 15% chance to roll out of a hit would have helped too much.

I will make excuses to say this: the designers of the game have to come up with 96 pieces that reflect the comic incarnations as closely as possible. While there is some overlap between REV versions that doesn't change the fact that many of these versions differ greatly. After they come up with the designs they have to play-test them to make sure they work out okay. After this the product has to be run by Marvel for approval. This is no easy task and I really dont envy them.

[quote]
1 click of Shapechange would have helped her survive at the end of the game, would have represented the character better...
I'll agree that they could have added it at the end of the dial. However for the added cost I'm not sure it would have been that much of a bonus.

Just like Storm not having Force Blast and Smoke Cloud. Lazy.
Ok, well they also should have given her Telekinesis, seeing as she has frequently used her powers to transport teammates as well. But if they gave her smoke cloud or tk she wouldn't be able to use explosion, and we all know she can hit multiple targets with lightning. Ooops, they left out leadership on some versions. There are only so many powers a character can possess before they become difficult to field. If you started tacking on all of these powers Vet Storm would probably end up around 70+ points easily yet without raising her defense she would be a fairly easy target to hit. Sure she would be versatile, but she'd have a large bullseye on her chest.

I'll agree that Wizkids has made some pretty bad mistakes in the past but I think the omission of force blast is no cardinal sin. Smoke cloud would have been nice but in a choice between that or exploder I'd go with the exploder. The company has apparently made a choice not to port over any more powers yet and I don't know that they've reasoned why. Considering they went to the trouble of desiging a completely different Storm for the Ex version I'm pretty happy with the effort they put into the character. Maybe it's just that "lazy" seems like a poor word choice to me, but it implies a lack of dedication I don't see here.

GluttonCreeper

03/29/2003, 18:46

look they dropped the ball on shapechange, they probably thought it was cool , and that we'd love it...

the reality is its near useless without at least 6 probibility controllers to ensure a 6 and then its no big deal just target someone else...

having made a worthless power , the wiz kids staff realised that it was lame and made the character useful instead of a liability.

personally i think stealth and perplex better represent the effect of changing your shape than shapechange.

if you need a lame shapechanger use beast boy (chamaleon) (bad spelling im sure.)

Mournblade

03/29/2003, 19:23

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
WK messed up. They were being lazy and the product suffered. Frankly people are just making excuses for WK.

Lazy?

Um. No. Not by my definition, no.

Lazy doesn't find alternative means to reproduce a power. Lazy doesn't see that Shapechange was misnamed and mishandled, and fixes it through creative application of other abilities. Lazy doesn't spend the time on that.

I'll tell you what lazy does do. Lazy gives Mystique shapechange down her dial and assumes this represents the character. Lazy doesn't put any extra effort into making sure that a gimped power like shapechange doesn't hinder a great character. Lazy doesn't spend the time, lazy doesn't work at it, lazy doesn't care.

I will tell you something else lazy does. Lazy sits at a computer and types ill-thought out posts about how lazy someone else's work is. Lazy doesn't bother to think that maybe, just maybe there was a reason why shapechange wasn't given. Lazy doesn't consider why.

Lazy doesn't bother to consider that shapechange (as written) should be ignored. Lazy doesn't even bother to think about playability, and lazy is named Spinebreaker.

Please, for the children, think before you post.

Spinebreaker

03/29/2003, 21:39

drop19 wrote : (About Shapechange)
>>>I'll agree that they could have added it at the end of the dial. However for the added cost I'm not sure it would have been that much of a bonus.<<<

I'm not sure it would have increased her cost much at all...

Skrulls have CONSTANT shapechange, and they're not expensve. So Mystique with 2 clicks of it on her last 2 clicks would only up her cost by 2 or 3 points...

>>>Considering they went to the trouble of desiging a completely different Storm for the Ex version I'm pretty happy with the effort they put into the character. Maybe it's just that "lazy" seems like a poor word choice to me, but it implies a lack of dedication I don't see here.<<<

OK... Perhaps, considering the BRILLIANT work that went into figures like Invisible girl, white queen, Iceman and so-on, and the Attention payed to Elektra and Spiderman to represent them as well as possible AND how the fans want them, it seems like other characters are just bunged together how WK sees fit without much thought or research.

Mournblade wrote :

>>>Lazy?
Um. No. Not by my definition, no. <<<

I don't give a #### what your definition, the ACTUAL definition is appropriate in the context i wrote it.

>>>I'll tell you what lazy does do. Lazy gives Mystique shapechange down her dial and assumes this represents the character.<<<

FOR THE 40TH TIME, I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED GIVING MYSTIQUE SHAPECHANGE DOWN THE DIAL. Perhaps you should take the time to actually READ my posts, then you could attempt an intellegent and relevent response.

>>>Lazy doesn't bother to consider that shapechange (as written) should be ignored. Lazy doesn't even bother to think about playability, and lazy is named Spinebreaker.<<<

I tell you what Dumb-### does, Dumb-### takes someones opinion (That was incidentally not directed at dumb-###) and takes it personally and attempts to write a "Hilarious" post pointing out my faults, neglecting to acknowledge the fact that Dumb-### hadn't even read my posts properly. Dumb-### attempts to gain feelingss of superiority by writing "witty" things on a message board.

>>>Please, for the children, think before you post.<<<

Yes, I'll consider people of your age group more next time i post.

Thanks for your ignorance.

Mournblade

03/29/2003, 22:57

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
... useless ramblings... pointless bravado...

Your only answer for calling the work of Jon L. lazy is that, "I didn't say give shapechange to Mystique for her whole dial?" That's all you have?

You hop on these boards that the man whose work your bashing reads, cop an attitude, post a flame, get called on it, and this is all you have to show?

It's real simple Spinebreaker: post something that substantiates your insult that Jon's work on Mystique is lazy, or leave. Otherwise, you have no room to complain, bicker, or whine (especially whine -- see above) when I see you acting like a juvenile and call it to attention.

So, unless you got something better than "I didn't say shapechange for her whole dial!" to make-up for the flat stupidity of calling Jon's work on her lazy, then I encourage you to just remain silent. :)

shin-goji

03/29/2003, 23:22

I don't call the lack of Shapechange lazy. I call it sensical. Do you realize that Shapechange is a lousy power, and not even in the Marvel HC Universe? The way she is now makes her more playable. Her lack of Shapechange only gives people a chance to complain about a figure that would have been less effective than if she did havce it, and then no one would use her. She is NOT a Skrull. She is a pillar in the Marvel Universe and a devious mastermind.

shin-goji

03/29/2003, 23:24

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
1 click of Shapechange would have helped her survive at the end of the game, would have represented the character better...

Just like Storm not having Force Blast and Smoke Cloud. Lazy.

Are you crazy? One in six chance does not make a character last longer. Ask ANYONE who plays skrulls.

drop19

03/30/2003, 00:39

OK... Perhaps, considering the BRILLIANT work that went into figures like Invisible girl, white queen, Iceman and so-on, and the Attention payed to Elektra and Spiderman to represent them as well as possible AND how the fans want them, it seems like other characters are just bunged together how WK sees fit without much thought or research.

I agree that there are some characters who have been reflected fairly poorly in the game. I don't feel that Mystique is one of them, but that's been made pretty clear already. Your continued harsh attacks on the games creators makes me wonder why you continue to play as you obviously have deep issues with their capabilities. It seems that you are pretty offended that people have repsonded to you in a negative fashion, but just remember that making negative comments about the creators rather than the product set the tone here.

shin-goji

03/30/2003, 00:48

I agree. The massive griping I'm hearing about Mystique is massively unjustified.

skeevo666

03/30/2003, 00:53

Now if it was Rebecca Romijn-Stamos making the protests, I might listen . . .

Mournblade

03/30/2003, 00:57

I completely agree. Mystique is great.

Originally posted by skeevo666
Now if it was Rebecca Romijn-Stamos making the protests, I might listen . . .

Perplex at work!

:cool:

Shaftkid7

03/30/2003, 01:04

Once again this is just basical WK thinking that her powers in the comic would be better represented by other powers in the game. Sure Shapechange yeah.. but don't you think when she changes her apperance it confuses the enemy? And from my knowledge of Mystique she always works from the shadows so stealth is a given for her. Shapechange is a real lame power anyways.. I mean look what it does for the Skrulls.. basically nothing. In my opinion I would take Perplex over shapechange any day

Spinebreaker

03/30/2003, 20:20

Mournblade wrote :
>>>Originally posted by Spinebreaker
... useless ramblings... pointless bravado...<<<

Excuse me. My original post was opinion, expressed as opinion and nothing other.

YOU are the one who chimed in with an attitude laden post calling me lazy.

>>>"I didn't say give shapechange to Mystique for her whole dial?" That's all you have?<<<

I was responding to YOU, I did not suggest she have SC her whole dial, you implied I did. But yet again you take me completely out of context.

>>>You hop on these boards that the man whose work your bashing reads, cop an attitude, post a flame, get called on it, and this is all you have to show?<<<

YOU posted the initial flame, I was responding. If you don't want people to respond, don't start with the name calling. My criticism was of the work on Mystique. Nothing else, and furthermore NOTHING to do with you, so why you have taken the enormously defensive attitude is beyond me.

Yet again we have a thread where opinions are responded to by abuse... and then when I admittedly did not like your abuse and abused back, you leap to your high horse immediately. This explains EXACTLY why I spend more time on the official site. It's possible to have a discussion there without people who disagree with you, rather than talking, debating or even arguing in a mature way, simply start to "stop whining".

>>>It's real simple Spinebreaker: post something that substantiates your insult that Jon's work on Mystique is lazy, or leave.<<<

OK. They have a power called shapechange. they have not used it on a character who CAN shapechange. I understand the reasons for giving her perplex and stealth, and they are fully justified, however. Either the shapechange power has been left off Mystique because of a lack of thought, or the shapechange power is almost entirely useless through lack of thought. Just like other aspects of the game have been handled badly. (A little more consideration of Arch-enemies, for example). Either way, SOMETHING was handled lazily. I'm sure Jon could take a bit of criticizm, As sure as I am that YOU can't.

Also, Where the He11, do you get the idea you have the right to even suggest I leave. Unfortunately for you other people's posts and opuinions ARE tolerated here by most people. You do not run this site. Most people would not have the audacity or outright ARROGANCE to suggest ANYONE else leaves. For some reason you consider yourself better than the people who run this site, and better than me. Well, I'm pleased for you.

>>>when I see you acting like a juvenile and call it to attention.<<<

I expressed an opinion which you disagreed with and YOU started the flames, YOU tried to tell me to leave. My only juvenile behaviour has been in response tou YOU.

But everyone seems to be agreed that discussion, different opinions and ideas are a bad idea on a message board.

So I'm gonna find some slightly more tolerable people who can maintain a conversation.

I'm sure you'll all have a laugh at my expense...

skeevo666

03/30/2003, 20:55

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
Excuse me. My original post was opinion, expressed as opinion and nothing other.

So was Mournblade's.

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
YOU are the one who chimed in with an attitude laden post calling me lazy.

whereupon you went straight to dumb-###. VERY mature and lacking in attitude. (at least I assume it was dumb-###, the filters kicked in)

Lazy was the charge you leveled against JonL & WK. They probably liked it from you as much as you did from Mournblade. Food for thought, perhaps . . .

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
My criticism was of the work on Mystique..

Yet it didn't take you very long to progress to:

>>> "OK... Perhaps, considering the BRILLIANT work that went into figures like Invisible girl, white queen, Iceman and so-on, and the Attention payed to Elektra and Spiderman to represent them as well as possible AND how the fans want them, it seems like other characters are just bunged together how WK sees fit without much thought or research." <<<

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
This explains EXACTLY why I spend more time on the official site. .

and your're welcome to spend ALL your time there if this is how you're going to behave . . .

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
OK. They have a power called shapechange. they have not used it on a character who CAN shapechange. I understand the reasons for giving her perplex and stealth, and they are fully justified, however. Either the shapechange power has been left off Mystique because of a lack of thought, or the shapechange power is almost entirely useless through lack of thought. Just like other aspects of the game have been handled badly. (A little more consideration of Arch-enemies, for example). Either way, SOMETHING was handled lazily. I'm sure Jon could take a bit of criticizm, As sure as I am that YOU can't.

Ah, after much knee-jerk ranting we finally get to something. What about shapechange being left off Mystique due to MUCH thought?

Calling someone lazy is not criticism; it is insult. Mystique without shapechange is a quirk and nothing more.

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
Also, Where the He11, do you get the idea you have the right to even suggest I leave.

Yet you do not mind "threatening" us with your departure? Hmm . . .

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
I'm sure you'll all have a laugh at my expense...

More like a sigh and a head-shake. BTW, do they have DECAFFEINATED tea in England?

onew0rd

03/30/2003, 21:28

Under normal circumstances, if there is a power called Shapechange, Mystique (if anyone) should have it. However, Given how bad shapechange is, I think Stealth and Perplex make her viable and are a pretty good representation of the character.

Aarrgggh, why couldn't they have done such a good job on applying powers to Mr. Fantastic too? Plasticity BLOWS!!!

Mournblade

03/30/2003, 22:14

skeevo666 said everything I was going to say, only better. :laugh:

Because it was so nice, it needed to be said twice:

Originally posted by skevo666:
Lazy was the charge you leveled against JonL & WK. They probably liked it from you as much as you did from Mournblade. Food for thought, perhaps . . .

Weapon XII

03/30/2003, 22:42

Well I gotta say wiz did mystique just about right. Although she could have been WAY better.RCE, for her expert in gun weapons and sniping ablities,CCE for her masterful fighting skillz. As well as shapechange on her last click of heatlh.Maybe they'll do another version of her with these powers:grin:

drop19

03/31/2003, 03:59

There's an attitude that really seems pervasive in any net-fandom that because you are the fan of a product it gives you some right to level criticism towards the creators rather than the creation. As I said before, there are some Clix that I feel downright suck and reflect the source material very poorly. I would hope that if I choose to speak about it here people would be respectful of that even if they disagree with me.

However, if I start laying personal attacks on the Wizkids staff and their ability it becomes another matter entirely. If you were at a convention would you honestly walk up to Jon L or some of the other Wizkids staff and call them lazy? Would you say "brilliant job on *character*" in a sarcastic tone to them? Just because this is a message board doesn't really give anyone the right to speak in a derogatory tone about those who make the game. If you are going to talk trash about someone (and yes, calling someone lazy about their work is an insult) then why should you get so deeply offended when the same attitude is reciprocated?

I'm not a mod or a site owner or anything and I certainly have no right to tell you to go away. Just consider that when you make personal attacks on someone in your post it opens the door for others to treat you with the same lack of respect.

skeevo666

04/01/2003, 17:15

spinebreaker, would you be happy with an 11th commandment

Mystique shalt have Shpachange, no matter what

skeevo666

05/11/2003, 03:53

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
My criticism was of the work on Mystique.

I don't monitor the boards daily, but from what I've seen there hasn't been much outcry for Mystique being a useless figure or "I'd play Mystique if only she had shapechange" . . .

And with X2 being as successful as it is and Mystique having a bigger role, there's a good chance there'll be another version of her sometime (with shapechange thrown in to placate the purists :) )

BenisCool

05/11/2003, 11:16

I think she should have change shape for a couple clix but they need to make change shape better, i mean u have 2 roll a 6!!! why not a 4 5 or 6!
Otherwise it is just stupid!

cscottk

05/11/2003, 11:45

Originally posted by LivingTribunal
Say what you want but she is a shapechanger. Not a Perplexer, and a stealty person! This is why Hero Clix is loosing my interest and fast. They cant even do a villians powers right.

I disagree. I think they did Mystique thte most correct. Just because she shapechanges and aa power is named shapechange, doesn't mean its the best reflection of her powers.

skeevo666

05/11/2003, 15:54

Originally posted by BenisCool
I think she should have change shape for a couple clix but they need to make change shape better, i mean u have 2 roll a 6!!! why not a 4 5 or 6!

The problem there is the effect that change would have on other powers. I think Super Senses should be better than Shape Change. (S-Senses you know the attack is coming & are able to avoid it; SC you try to keep it happening in the first place-harder to do)

I don't think SC deserves a 4-6 success roll; you could give that to S-Senses & increase SC to 5-6, but then you'll get into re-costing issues (not to mention an outcry from Impervious users . . . )

Another reason for Mystique not having the Shape Change super power is the designers might want it to be DC-specific (it is effectively available in Marvel as the Skrull Team Ability) just as Stealth is Marvel-specific (although available to DC as the Batman Ally Team Ability :) )

bradu

05/11/2003, 17:00

A couple people have touched on it so far, but I think it's clear that the problem is NOT that Mystique is misrepresented, but that the Shapechange ability is misrepresented. It clearly should be more effective than a 1 in 6 chance. Also to me it seems that it would be more appropriate under the Defense category as opposed to damage, but obviously there's no room for it.

I'd like to see them amend the rule for Shapechange to make it more useful. Is that possible?

Psylockeslover

05/11/2003, 17:05

Originally posted by bradu
A couple people have touched on it so far, but I think it's clear that the problem is NOT that Mystique is misrepresented, but that the Shapechange ability is misrepresented. It clearly should be more effective than a 1 in 6 chance. Also to me it seems that it would be more appropriate under the Defense category as opposed to damage, but obviously there's no room for it.

I'd like to see them amend the rule for Shapechange to make it more useful. Is that possible?

Ok. Lets make Shapechange "more effective". Say, a roll of 5 or 6 works. Then lets change it to a defensive power.

Hey, lets change the color to red too...

TychesCoin

05/11/2003, 17:33

Just to chime in on the shape change issue, I haven't used it much as a power (cause I don't play DC much) but as far as how it works with the skrulls, I don't think its that bad. Its definately not a gamebreakling ability, but it can make a nice bonus.

First, its cheap because it isn't very powerful. It has a pretty minimal effect on overall figure cost. To some degree its almost free. Not quite free, but dirt cheap atleast.

Second, because its weak your opponent rarely moves to counter it. Is the 1 in 6 chance really worth positioning a PCer just in case they roll that 6? I'm guessing with DC its also rarely outwitted.

Third, it works very well in mass. Play 1 skrull and the effect is almost negligible. Play a team full of them and suddenly your opponent is pretty sure some of his attacks are gonna misfire and there's no way to predict which ones. Its not a function of your strategy or of his, its just random. And it can get frustrating. Especially with the new ruling when it takes effect halfway through a charge or running shot.

Fourth, it works better when a character has it in depth. With skrulls they have it every click so they get a chance every time they're attacked. Put it on one or two clicks and you only get one or two chances at it. If they gave it to mystique on a couple clicks at the end of the dial or whatever, there's a pretty good chance it would just be wasted points in most games, if she misses the roll (very likely) she's probably KOed. Not many I grant you, but sometimes every little bit counts.

Fifth, it makes a great supplemental power. Skrull's have fairly high defense for generics to begin with, tossing in the team ability enhances that. Like all generics they get heavy use as tie up pieces, a tie up piece that on occasion just can't be hit fits nicely in the spectrum between those that have nothing to help them and the elite tie up pieces (supersenses, toughness, plasticity, etc). Where paired with the proper stats/powers/purpose it just makes characters that tiny bit better.

Sixth, its a defense power that can stack with other defense powers. Like stealth, its a power that enhances a characters defense while allowing them to have another defensive power and makes them just that much harder to hit. There can be tough shapeshifters or inv shapeshifters, or shapeshifters with supersenses. Try playing vet IC daredevil with a skrull teammate. It may not gain you anything but all those dice rolls can frustrate an opponent and make them think twice before making an attack that may not hit.

PantherPriest

05/11/2003, 17:46

I haven't read any of the last posts so someone might have touched on this. Stealth and perpelx are perfect for what mystique does. She's stealthy by changing into random pedestrian to fool you. And perplex is for the shock value of that random pedestrian shooting at you or suddenly becoming mystique. Shape change would be wrong, for she can always shape change not 1 in 6. If you ask me shapechange and supersenses should be upped.

bradu

05/11/2003, 18:00

"Shape change would be wrong, for she can always shape change not 1 in 6"

But it's not 1 in 6 as to whether or not she can shapechange, it's 1 in 6 as to whether or not it fools the enemy. For instance, in the movie X-men, when Mystique has shapechanged to Storm, Wolverine catches on and attacks her. This would be an example of her missing the roll and being discovered. However, it seems to me that more often than not her shapechange does fool people, at least long enough to get the mission accomplished. One tricky thing is that there's a lot more uses for shapechange other than to avoid damage, but in Heroclix terms there's not really a way to reflect that.

For instance she may try to use her shapechange to trick a medic on the opposing team to aid her, or to trick an opponent into protecting her, only setting him up to be attacked when he doesn't expect it.But in terms of how the game is played I don't know how to reflect this.