Complete Heroclix Rule Overhaul

[kevlear]

Have you ever been suck in a game like this: it's a 400 Pt game and you have 4 characters on your team and your aponent also has 4. You take your turn then he takes his you would have to push on the next turn or just skip it, so you skip it and he does the same. Is'nt this a drag. I know your thinking why use 4 characters that equil 100 pts each my question why not, you have the power, it's your game!

Me and a few came up with some MIND BLOWING new rules that we now always play by that I feel kicks the fun level and game speed up a few notches. I'm not saying everybody should play by these rules but you might find them extreemly fun. WK would freek if they heard them, but here I go:

I. In a game the number of actions you take is equil to 1.5%xof the SMALLEST team (round down). Or if you play a 400 pt game with 5 people every player would get 7 actions for each turn (were still tweeking this rule it was all characters could go as much as they could even pushing and leadership). Leadership is use 100% of the time (no role) use it just like outwit, and perplex, you must be in 10 range and clear line of sight (our mutual choice of a rule change).

II. With pushing, any character can make 2 actions in one turn you would just have to take a click of damage or just at least a push token (if you can use leadership, Brotherhood\Avengers\JLA, willpower etc. you wouldn't take damage accordingly). You must remember that what we're doing here is making the game go faster by combining two turns into one. Believe me this all really does work out quite nicely. Anyway this just makes more sence, I mean in the comic books have you ever seen the heros or villans take one shot then say "no you make this next attack, I just too winded from the one attack I made." or say "just half of the team can got at first then once their done the rest can go, we don't want to attack to hard" COME ON!!! NO way! the whole team ALWAYS attacks at once.

III . With flight there are three levelsof hight: ground (huvering), midflight (level of a building), and soaring (same level of a leap\climb\huvering character on a box on the roof). To move to these levels with flighing characters you will have to subtract the hight from your movment acordingly(1 space for midflight and 2 for soaring). Soaring and midflight characters can make ranged attacks on grounded characters as grounded characters can shoot flying Characters, just remember to subtract the flying levels away from the range. Ex. one must have at least 3 range to shoot soaring characters in an ajacent square. A person on a building (or midflight) can not shoot a grounded character if he is blocked by any blocking terain or other character with in 1\3 the distance between them and for soaring 1\6 rounded down for the flighting character and up for the grounded. Ex. if a character is in midflight and is trying to shoot a grounded character 5+ 1=6 (for the midflight) spaces away he would be blocked by any character that was in line of sight and 1 square away from the target character. Soaring would only be blocked by an adjacent character (to the target). The same but reversed rules for the grounded\huvering character.

There are a few more changes we did but this is enough to tell for now, I don't want to blow your brains to much in one day.
I feel that these new rules that we play by make heroclix make more sence and even more fun. If you want you can use all or just some of these rules in your "for fun" play tell me what you think.

[Angelofhate]

Another "fix the game cause it's borken" thread.

If they work as house rules, then use em.

[shin-goji]

I agree. If they are just house rules, go for it. The game is agressive enough as it is. There's this one guy I know who wants all characters to be able to have charge and running shot, and the characters who already have it can make their full move and attack, because the game "neds to be more agressive." Total cheese.

[darius_dax1]

Before I would even consider any of the rules you propose, could you take a remedial spelling course and maybe learn proper english usage. These skills are needed to convey information to the masses. If you don't use the right words/spelling/punctuation, nobody will know what you're talking about.

All that and this game isn't BORKEN so ther would not be a need for a rules overhaul.

If you choose not to push in your second turn and the recovery turn isn't going fast enough, it's up to you to pick up the pace. When you have a recovery turn it should only be about 10 seconds long if you're smart and thought ahead.
There is no reason to change the rules for everybody else, but you can use whatever HOUSE RULES you choose. There is nothing wrong with that.

[kevlear]

Spelling has never been my strong suit yet I'm sure you'r not perfict in every way either darius. These rule SUGESTIONS are just THAT. I don't intend on changing all the rules that everybody is already acostumed to yet there are many people out there that might like to here some of my suggestions and might even think it can help in the funness of the game. Like me and my friends. Nobady HAS to follow my Ideas but ther are some that these suggestions might be invaluable.

[cptantilles]

I really like the house rules, of course as house rules only :) It seems a little complicated for me but the ideas are great I think. My friends and I like to play big point games a lot (usually 600 points) too and came up with a simple rule ourselves to speed the game up. Maybe you'll like it or can use it?
Using the 1 action per 100 points rule can take forever in a big point game (even a 400 or 500 game). It seems you spend half the day/night either taking or waiting for your turn. So we decided 3 turns only unless you have leadership and score a succesful role then you get a 4th. All of a sudden leadership seems a lot more valuable, and the turns seem to go much faster. Also you can't do like a hundred moves and totally cheese your oponent off the board. Especially if you chose an army of little, yet pack-a-punch kind of guys, and/or some clever use of outwit. Anyway that's it! A simple limit of 3 moves per turn (4 w/Leadership). It allows us to really use some of the Vets and Uniques together for more powerful but mostly realistic type teams. Oh! We also ban the use of common medics. If you want Support, use a hero or LE medic (this limits you to only 1 copy because of LE also LE medics have a specific name, hence the allowance). This really helps speed up the game too! It forces you to duke-it-out more and not so much hit-and-run. However with the new intro of paramedics this rule needs to be revised. We were thinking on allowing them because they don't add any cheesy team abilities or do damage, just heal ... we'll see. Anyway feel free to try these house rules (3 actions and no common medics) to speed up any friendly game with a lot of points.
While I'm here I'd also like to mention the slight variation on one of the scenarios in the rule book we use. When making your team pick any character(s) you want from a specific team (you may add wild card members. For example: you would have only Avengers and/or wild card members). 1 TEAM ONLY! (not including wild card). Now you may also choose from one more pool of characters when making your team and that's non-affiliate. These characters also get the team ability for whatever team your making. This tries to show how hero's sometimes team up, and/or briefly work/join teams for whatever to save the world/universe/galaxy/you-name-it. Well hope this helps or somebody enjoys! :)

[darius_dax1]

There is no problem with your suggestion being heard. Nor is there a problem with my disagreement with your suggestion being heard.
The problem is when you title a thread: "Complete Heroclix rule Overhaul". A title like that suggests that you want to totally change the game of Heroclix as we know it. A more appropriate title may be: "My Heroclix House Rules".
The spelling comment may have sounded harsh and for that I apologize, but to suggest what you did, with the implication that the title carried, I believe that one should know what they are talking about before throwing rules out like this without consideration for how it would effect the game.
I also said that your house rules are fine for you and your HC group. It doesn't mean that there should be a rules overhaul.

[skeevo666]

Y'know it's getting to be that you can almost set yr watch to how often the rules "overhauls/fixes" are posted :)



or to paraphrase P.T. Barnum:


"There's a whiner born every minute"

[kevlear]

I don't think enough people would go for it to totally change the rules but for me I did a few others like them also. Yet I might play by the original rules ocationally yet I don't like them as much. I've been plannig to post these rules for months now I just finally decided it was time. I would just like to hear Poeples true critiques on them. Good or bad yet not bash them in genral.

[kevlear]

I'm not complaining about the rules I'm just taking the power I have to alter them to what I feel is beter.

[Doomtoy]

I couldn't care less about anyone's spelling. If I can understand what he's trying to say, well, peachy.

As to rules changes: I dunno... I mean, it sounds like you're having a fine time with your new rules, so ... go for it. I mean, you paid for the figures. You own them. You can do whatever you want with them.

Sounds to me, though, like what you really want is for all of US to start playing by your rules...

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by kevlear
I. In a game the number of actions you take is equil to 1.5%xof the SMALLEST team (round down). Or if you play a 400 pt game with 5 people every player would get 7 actions for each turn (were still tweeking this rule it was all characters could go as much as they could even pushing and leadership). Leadership is use 100% of the time (no role) use it just like outwit, and perplex, you must be in 10 range and clear line of sight (our mutual choice of a rule change).

How would you regulate that each person only chose to field 5 figures. Leadership is an ability that represents having a good idea and that idea working. Making it automatic would overpower the ability and all the Outwit/Perplex detractors would have something else to whine about. Also, managing your actions and planning ahead is directly tied into choosing your team. Actions are what wins the game, so having extra actions is a very valuable asset. Leadership, Willpower, Avengers/Brotherhood/JLA team ability, Charge, Running Shot, Flurry, and multiple arrows on your dial are all very important abilities that would be affected by this rule. Have you considered the cosequences of that?

Originally posted by kevlear
II. With pushing, any character can make 2 actions in one turn you would just have to take a click of damage or just at least a push token (if you can use leadership, Brotherhood\Avengers\JLA, willpower etc. you wouldn't take damage accordingly). You must remember that what we're doing here is making the game go faster by combining two turns into one. Believe me this all really does work out quite nicely. Anyway this just makes more sence, I mean in the comic books have you ever seen the heros or villans take one shot then say "no you make this next attack, I just too winded from the one attack I made." or say "just half of the team can got at first then once their done the rest can go, we don't want to attack to hard" COME ON!!! NO way! the whole team ALWAYS attacks at once.

Taking a 'push token' means taking a click of damage. The reasons I stated for I. also apply here. This is a game based on the comics just like Daredevil the movie was a film based on the comics. Comics and the game are two very different entities. Things have to work within the game mechanics to make it fun for everybody to play. Writers can do just about anything in the comics because they are making it up as they go along. When playing a game we need constants in the rules so that they are common to everyone playing. The whole team doesn't always attack at once. Batman will usually hide in the shadows, assessing the situation so he can use he information to his and his team's advantage.

Originally posted by kevlear
III . With flight there are three levelsof hight: ground (huvering), midflight (level of a building), and soaring (same level of a leap\climb\huvering character on a box on the roof). To move to these levels with flighing characters you will have to subtract the hight from your movment acordingly(1 space for midflight and 2 for soaring). Soaring and midflight characters can make ranged attacks on grounded characters as grounded characters can shoot flying Characters, just remember to subtract the flying levels away from the range. Ex. one must have at least 3 range to shoot soaring characters in an ajacent square. A person on a building (or midflight) can not shoot a grounded character if he is blocked by any blocking terain or other character with in 1\3 the distance between them and for soaring 1\6 rounded down for the flighting character and up for the grounded. Ex. if a character is in midflight and is trying to shoot a grounded character 5+ 1=6 (for the midflight) spaces away he would be blocked by any character that was in line of sight and 1 square away from the target character. Soaring would only be blocked by an adjacent character (to the target). The same but reversed rules for the grounded\huvering character.

I understand what you are trying to do here. But this would just add another level of complexity to a game that should remain as simple as possible. When I opened my first box of HC I thought that each click up the flying base meant that the figure was at a different altitude. I was really relieved when I found out this wasn't the case.

Again, I would like to say that adopting house rules is fine, discussing them here is fine, but to imply a drastic rules change measure be implemented is not fine.

I hope you enjoy my critique of your rules. Perhaps you can use what I stated here to tweak them even further.

[darkietum]

Hey darius dax1:
In your rant about spelling mistakes, you failed to spell the word "ther" correctly - I think you meant to type "there". Just thought you should know.
Heh heh.

[darkietum]

All that and this game isn't BORKEN so ther would not be a need for a rules overhaul.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by darkietum
Hey darius dax1:
In your rant about spelling mistakes, you failed to spell the word "ther" correctly - I think you meant to type "there". Just thought you should know.
Heh heh.

Big difference between typo and spelling. But thanks for the critique of my critique. I will use your information to help improve my horrible typing skills (not one of my strong suits because, alas, I am also not perfect).

[darkietum]

If you don't use the right spelling and punctuation, how am I supposed to know what you are saying?

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by darkietum
All that and this game isn't BORKEN so ther would not be a need for a rules overhaul.

Somehow I don't belive that 'ther' will have the lasting usage of 'borken'.

p.s. My typing is BORKEN!!!

[kevlear]

most of my "spellig" problems were also typos. But thanx for your honest critiques, myfriends and I will take those into consideration.

[darius_dax1]

No problem and again I would like to apologize if I was a little harsh in that first reply.

[lancelot]

(nods off to sleep) (mouse bites toe) Yeowch! Oh, right...dang, I just read up FIX THIS GAME, now this? Ok, I'm officially avoiding those threads like the plague. Functional fixedness, look that up guys. Hope it helps you abandon the concept of TRYING to change the game THROUGH forums. It's just a waste of our time and the moderators', as well.

[darius_dax1]

But discussing it as house rules or why did they do it this way is ok! That's what a forum is about, discussion. I think kevlear just wanted opinions about his house rules and came off as a rules changer.

[lancelot]

true enough, offer up house rules, but those guys seem to want to MAKE us play it that way lol it s just that me and my group just play by the rules, the tournament way, we never have any bickering, any dice rolls for ambigious rulings, nothing of that stupid sort. it s just silly when we see ppl complain and they re MARVEL players! i think marvel s got the best of everything, high AV, high DV, BCF, cheap cheeses, whilst DC's a whole lot more cerebral and we complain less. it s just a contradiction in itself, an easy to learn and addicting game being bogged down by complainers nitpicking about ONE little angle on a rule. stealth is stealthed, so be it! outwit is nasty, so be it! perplex is abused, so be it! to quote you dax, evolve or just die off :)

[darius_dax1]

We do use the opposing roll house rule at times to solve disputes. I think that has a place in everybody's group to keep the game moving. After all it is just for fun, and beer and pretzels as well I'm told!
The thing is about rules whiners (not you kevlear) is that they don't remember that the rules apply equally to both sides. If you decide not to exploit Outwit or Perplex then that is your problem. Do you want to stay stale with the same old Firelord team or do you want to continue to adapt to the new releases and really kick some backside? They also cry because their favorite character does not work like they think it does in the comic (which is a different universe than the game) so right away the rules have to change so they can win using their favorites.
I also have a house rule using matchbox cars as heavy objects and blocking/hindering terrain.

I may have to change my sig to evolve or die or some variation of that.

[kevlear]

They promoted this this game by in saying you can live out the comic books, these rules help it do that. One of the things I love about this rules is you can finally use the higher point charcters and have fun with them. Like OWAW Superman you can finally use his leadership!!!

[darius_dax1]

I'm sure that they will see the 'error' of giving high costed figures leadership. But I still don't think it needs to be changed.
Maybe the use of a high costed leader would be addressed by choosing many low costed figures to fill out your team. Then leadership has a use. If you field a 400 point team with OWAW Superman at the helm leading 8-12 others then leadership makes sense. Or it could be just an extra opening move that gives you the edge.

[kevlear]

The thing about using a bunch of peeons with Superman is that the team would be so unbalanced. Why not have a balanced team where you can use all the higth point characters you want.

[lancelot]

not true! in a 300 pt game, i had...

LE owaw superman
r-checkmate medic
v-robin
r-huntress
r-checkmate agent

sure the other 4 got killed, but i cleaned up with superman, netting 4 kills and winning when the time ran out, nobody could lay a finger on my OWAW superman

[kevlear]

well tha's just because OWAW Superman RULES!!! he's the best Character made in heroclix that dos't have anything to do with the rules.

[lancelot]

lol, doesnt have anything to do with the rules? he sure caused nuff trouble with his HSS, whether he cud pick up 3d dumpsters over n over with HSS heh

[kevlear]

what I mean is it would be hard to use OWAW Superman on a 300pt team with Bane and use his leadership to well. With the original rules. With my rules you could use it and have Bane take a damageless push.(I call a free push)

[MindProbe]

I helped create these rules with Kevlear.

I also play Mage Knight. The "official" Heroclix rules are only a slight modification of the Mage Knight rules. These rules work better for Mage Knight for two reasons. 1)because of the Mage Knight rules on formation actions and 2)the average Mage Knight character is 20 to 30 points whereas the average Heroclix characer is 50 to 75 points (at least twice the Mage Knight average)

The official rules, in my oppinion, are not best suited for characters pulled from Comic Books! Now, Mage Knight creates its own world for the purposes of the game. The game is the important feature and the rules work well for a fantasy setting. These rules do not fit what happens in comic books! Why else would you play Heroclix unless you were a fan of Comic books? Comic books are fast paced where everything seems to happen at once. I believe Wiz Kids did not go far enough on their rule modifications. They are still set in their Mage Knight roots and need to be modified to fit a new genre!

Just to introduce myself, I plan to be an author. I love all types of fiction (although I prefer the fantastic fiction of Comic Books or Fantasy). I also play Role Playing Games. I also plan on creating several of my own games. I know a lot about game mechanics. Heroclix is the first miniature strategy game I have seen (not the first RPG, but that is a different matter entirely). I believe it deserves an A for effort, yet it is still stuck in the myre of WarHammer 40k.

I guess what I am saying is that Heroclix is not perfect as many traditionalists want to believe. Many would not want to change the rules as if they were written by the hand of God in tablets of stone. This is not the case. Rarely do I play a game exactly how the authors publish it. I find things that work better for me and I go for them.

Just realize, that when they change the rules of Heroclix in the future, it is not blasphemy. The people who write the rules are just that--people. People make mistakes and work to improve upon their creations. The Heroclix rules as they are now are a work in progress, not a perfected set.

[kevlear]

WELL PUT!!!

[kevlear]

Heroclix is made to have fun and sometimes adjusting the rules to your liking is a better way of play.

We have the free will and power to live life and play games as we best see done.

[kevlear]

I guess his point was so ferm who could argue. I just love these rules being able to have everyone on your team go in one turn it makes teamwork more phesable. (did I spell that right?)

[MindProbe]

I think I just bored everybody to death with the force of my logic. There aren't that many people who like reading novels nowadays

[IceHot]

Something for you to think about as you pursue your game building career. A key to any good game is making choices. Not being able to move all your charcacters is key to setting up this dilema.

Also how long does it take you to remove tokens that it slows down the game? My guess is you abandoned the rules before you became adept at removing tokens. Seems a little rash to me.

[Kid Zemo]

it makes teamwork more phesable. (did I spell that right?)
Actually, it's feasible.

[MindProbe]

Okay, this message intrigued me mostly because it confused me. Kevlear and I have been playing with rules where every single one of our characters can move--that allowed for whimps to overrun the big guns. We modified it so the smaller team determined how many actions the larger team got. Every character on the smaller team can push every (or nearly) every other turn. The larger team may not even have enough actions for all of their characters to move.

As far as action tokens go, I use milk caps. I use them even more extensively in my Mage Knight campaigns, but I have started using them again since Kevlear and I recently modified the rules. Our characters are limited in how many actions they get--at least moderately so.

[MindProbe]

Believe me, I have been getting on Kevlear for his spelling too. It just comes natural to me (oh, we're brothers by the way).

[kevlear]

I feel the great thing about everybody moving is that you don't have to remember who when last turn (given you have the smaller team) I don't even use tokens evept for every once in a wial to mark who pushes.

[MindProbe]

:p

looks like we might have to bury this conversation

[darius_dax1]

Like I stated before, House Rules are a good thing. I play Dungeons and Dragons and we have used house rules in the past. The thing is I don't expect strangers that I may play a game with at a convention to honor those rules.

Mindprobe: You stated that you rarely ever play games using the published rules because it works better for you. That is fine. HC works better, as is, for all but a few who can't seem to understand that HC is fine the way it is. If there are loopholes in the system they are exploitable by all. If you want to play tornament style it should be highly competitive and hinge on exploiting the rules. On ther other hand if you want to play for fun then by all means use house rules if it suits you. The problem taht I have with these types of changes is that the authors of the threads assume that Wizkids will actually use their changes and force everyone else, even those who believe that HC is not BORKEN, to adhere to the new rules.

[MindProbe]

Okay. You are absolutely right in the house rules department. I play for fun. It was my brother (Kevlear) who suggested that they be for everyone. He and I have had a superhero miniatures game planned for a while now (he has actually been the one who has been spearheading this idea) and WK just beat us to the punch. My brother is just kind of bitter at this and wanting to create Heroclix into his own game. I, being an avid gameplayer and big on rules, have been helping him make the rules closer to how we feel a superhero game should be. Eventually, we will publish some of our characters and hopefully even market our own Superhero miniatures game, We are learning what to do and what not to do from Heroclix. Eventually, many people who currently play Heroclix will clamor for our game. Currently this is a dream, but tomorrow I know it will be a reality.
_________________________
"To dream the impossible dream"--Man of La Mancha

[darius_dax1]

Well, good luck then to you both! I hope it works well. I may even try it out when it is released.

[kevlear]

In the game I created everyone ont the team moved in one turn. Yet Everyone equiled the same point total, and every team had the same number of people on them. It would be played with cards more than dice, and the extra special powers would be on the cards yet the basic powers and damage points would be on the bases of the Characters. If HC patants this, this Idea is out. For now this game is just a dream as my brother said. for now heroclix is the closest thing so I will stick with it for now. Though I do like to play with our new rules.

[shin-goji]

Let's combine this thread with Brazil's thread of the rules overhaul. Maybe if the two mix together we'll have the same rules with updated FAQ that we have right now :)

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by shin-goji
Let's combine this thread with Brazil's thread of the rules overhaul. Maybe if the two mix together


What like Vinegar & Water? That would be like saying HeroClix needed to be . . . Flushed out?

[skeevo666]

I am now changing my name to Bukkakke, Lord of Heroclix




you may be seated now . . . .

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by skeevo666
I am now changing my name to Bukkakke, Lord of Heroclix




you may be seated now . . . .

For those that know what that is...you are one sick-puppy! I love it!

Shin-Goji,

These guys have actually cleared up the title of the thread. They don't mean any harm. It was somewhat of a mis-understanding.