Mastermind question

[DeadDale]

Can three masterminds standing adjacent to another tranfer damage from one to another? Example: could figure a transfer damage from a to b to c, and then have c dump it off to a lackey.


thanks

[Angelofhate]

I believe the rules of mastermind say that the person targetted for the attack can push it to an adjacent figure. The others with mastermind weren't targetted so thusly cannot move damage away from them.

Good thinkin though.

[HeroComplex]

Angelofhate is correct. Only the target of an attack may use Mastermind, and the figure who receives the transferred damage is actually being damaged by a superpower, not an attack.

[littlegreenmen]

What if all three were targeted as part of a multi-attack then would it work?

[HeroComplex]

I believe not, but the territory is unsure enough that I'm checking on the Judges Forum.

[Diablo4485]

Don't think the recipient of splash damage can Mastermind, only becuase they're not the target of the attack. This was explained more thoroughly in the rulings about EE cutting through Impervious, but the gist of it is (from my POV) that MM only works when the figure w/ MM is the TARGET of the attack. If they're getting splash damage they're not the target.

[TheEnigma]

Actually the latest rulings that were made here indicate that EE damage is all calaculated at once. Remember that a multi-target attack is still just one attack. If the MM character is one of the targets of that attack, he may SHUNT! :) all damage received in that attack to an appropriate minion. The splash damage is applied at the same time as the direct damage, and then it is all transferred to the lackey at once.

[HeroComplex]

TheEnigma is correct. And he's wrapped in a riddle and things.

Normally, there is no way that Mastermind damage may be Masterminded, as the second figure was not the target of the original attack. However, if there was multiple-targeting involved and that second figure was a target, things get trickier. I believe that MM damage still cannot be chained even in this circumstance, and have given my thoughts on it in the WizKids Judges Forum, but for now there's no official word. I'll let you know when we hear something.

[Rake]

To mastermind the lackey needs to be of less point value, so that would make it even more difficult to pull off.

[littlegreenmen]

HeroComplex any ruling yet?

[HeroComplex]

Not just yet, no.

[TheEnigma]

OK. I'm no judge (just yet) but I'm going to take a stab at this and maybe Tsannik can pass it on to get an "official" ruling.

Let's say you have V Dr. Doom (198 pts) and U Red Skull (47 pts) accompanied by a R Thug (6 pts).


....DRT....


Suddenly Ultron flies by and shoots them all with his EE.
First you calculate the damage:
Doom takes 1 for target and Red Skull takes 1 splash.
Skull takes 1 target and Doom and Thug each take 1 splash.
Thug takes 1 target and Skull takes 1 splash.
So far, Thug = 2, Doom = 2, Skull = 3.
Now Mastermind kicks in.
Doom can MM his damage onto the Skull, and Skull can MM his damage onto the Thug. The question then becomes, can Skull MM the damage he received from Doom in addition to what he suffered normally?

I'm gonna say no, because of the wording of the PAC:

"When this character is the target of a successful attack (either close or ranged combat), all the damage it would normally receive from the attack can be inflicted instead on any friendly character with a lower point value in an adjacent square."

So you can MM damage from an attack, but not from another MM, because you wouldn't normally receive that damage. If Thug was in between Skull and Doom, they could both MM damage to him for a total of 7, because all damage is applied at once.

Comments??

[HeroComplex]

This is actually what I've already posted for clarification. I think I even used those two figures as the example...are you following me?! Oh, no, I'm seeing that I used Joker...you're off the hook this time, mister!

As I said above, I don't think that the Mastermind-Mastermind would work even in this scenario, and I made my case in the Judges Forum yesterday. It's just a waiting game now.

For reference, my reason is that Masterminded damage is no longer considered to be from an attack. Super Senses cannot work on it, for example. And if it is not part of an attack, then it should not fall under the blanket of "damage...from the attack." But we'll see.

[TheEnigma]

*wipes sweat from brow*

Whew. That hook was gettin mighty close for comfort. :)

And to think, that if the Edit feature was working for me I was actually going to add your name in front of Tsannik's since you'd already responded to this thread here...

I wonder if Super Senses would work on the hook.....

[spiderboy]

So your saying that splash damage can be masterminded?

[HeroComplex]

All your edit are belong to us.

Masterminding splash---only only only if the Mastermind figure was another target of that same EE attack. Only only.

[spiderboy]

I think from enigmas example, Doom takes a 1 damage from splash but can MM his targeted 1 damage to someone else. Skull would take 2 splash damage and can MM his targeted 1 damage to someone else.

[spiderboy]

Rite.... I get what you mean though i think the ruling on this is a little shady

[Manchine]

If Doombot is hit with EE---
Doombot takes one click (-1 for Toughness)
Doom takes one click (cannot be Masterminded)

If Doom is hit with EE, no Mastermind---
Doom takes one click
Doombot takes one click (-1 for Toughness)

If Doom is hit with EE, yes Mastermind---
Doombot takes two clicks (-1 for Toughness). He takes the click of Masterminded damage from Doom, but he also takes the splash damage, as Doom was still the original target.

If both are hit with EE, no Mastermind---
Doom takes two clicks
Doombot takes two clicks (-1 for Toughness)

If both are hit with EE, yes Mastermind---
Doombot takes four clicks (-1 for Toughness). All of the damage that Doom would have taken for that attack is Masterminded to the adjacent figure.

[Tsannik]

And to think, that if the Edit feature was working for me I was actually going to add your name in front of Tsannik's since you'd already responded to this thread here...


Oh, no way! I didn't see that.... I'm not looking.... but it's still there!


Actually, I think of Heroclix and I as a very good team. If there are any questions that I have, he's the guy I go to.... if I want a quick response that is....

And if he has any questions.....

Well, he never asks me... he just posts them to Chapeau himself.... *sniff*....



But usually, what he can't cover, I can... and vice versa...


Just remember.... it's Tsannik/HeroComplex.... not HeroComplex/Tsannik....eww... that was even weird typing out...

:)

[Manchine]

And if I cant explain it I send a Message to HeroComplex/Tsannik and have them explain it better then what I can.

[HeroComplex]

Tsannik and I are like superheroes. Manchine just PMs one of us the bat signal and we come running.
*whisper*Tsannik's Robin*whisper*:cheeky:

[Tsannik]

Wha?!? LOL....

I don't even get Nightwing status, huh?


I really don't have a better comeback at this time... :(

[Manchine]

Wasnt Robin a girl at one point in time? ;) :p :laugh:

So does that make me Comminsioner Gorden.

[DaLuvster89]

This is disheartening to me, personally. I didn't notice that Impervious-like wording of Mastermind - the "when this fig. is the target of an attack".

It's fine- that's the rule, I can live with it. But I'll re-iterate that my Red Skull/Viper/Madame Masque team is now thrown out the window.

And I just got done building a 3100 point Mastermind team.
(Dr. Doom/U Joker/Red Skull/Viper/Madame Masque). I'm going to go step on my Mastermind figs now.

[HeroComplex]

And word from Chapeau is that as MM only transfers attack damage, a chain of Masterminds won't work.

[DaLuvster89]

:(