100pt Captain America

[ggbartle]

Here's the Captain America I want to see:

100 points
6 range
1 arrow
Avengers team ability

s: 8c 8 7 7 6 6 5 5
a: 12 11 10 9 8i 8i 7i 7
df: 17e 17e 16e 16d 15t 14t 13w 12w
dm: 2l 2l 2l 2l 2l 1o 1o 2o


c= charge
i = incapacitate
e= energy shield
d= defend
t= toughness
w= willpower
l= leadership
o= outwit


The main differences between this Cap and WizKids' veteran version are the higher attack values and assortment of defensive powers. After Energy Shield, I gave Cap a click of Defend to help his teammates, then Toughness and Willpower since he's the personification of "never-say-die". A few clicks of Incapacitate show how Cap can use his fighting skills, shield and savvy to stop a foe in his tracks even when he can't hurt them. Like the WizKids version, this Cap has a click of Charge and plenty of Leadership and Outwit.

This 100 point version would be a great field general to lead any team on the battlefield, and like in the comics, he'd likely be among the last men standing.

[Spookythecat]

Very nice. Much more "Captain America"-y than the version that we got.

However...

If it were up to me... Boost Cap's starting defense up to 18, with Defend (Good call on Defend, by the way, makes perfect sense) and Willpower for the rest of the dial.

He's Cap. If Batman gets Willpower down the dial, so should Captain America.

[skacorps]

The only thing I'd do is get rid of toughness and put defend and willpower there.

[JayThor]

I agree with Spookythecat. High defense number and Defend followed by Willpower the rest of the dial. Dump Incap, too. Charge, Outwit and Leadership round him out nicely.

[Quarantine]

What about more than one target for his ranged attacks? How many times have we seen Cap throw his shield and ricochet it off one opponent to hit another? Too many for him to not have it in clix. I agree with dropping Incapacitate, too.

[ggbartle]

good points all

I agree that dumping Energy Shield and just increasing his defense number is more functional (especially if it saves room for more clicks of Defend), but I think its kind of fun to "use" Cap's shield when he's attacked from range, at least for a few clicks -- kind of the same reason why I prefer Spider-Man to "use" Super-Senses instead of just having a higher defense number

as for Incapacitate, I gave it to Cap for the same reason Daredevil has it -- neither of them literally bind up their opponents (like Spidey does with his webs), but it shows how these world-class fighters and gymnasts can stun opponents they can't otherwise hurt, especially when using their shields & billy clubs. its a good way of keeping Cap in the competitive mix (where he deserves to be) against characters with Invulnerability.

[thunderstorm]

100 is too many points to be playable. Drop his attacks and give him one less click....heck just take out the first click and he would be playable and better than the current Caps.

[Badges2]

100 pts is about right. He should be the leader with a bunch of lesser figures to round out the team. He's got free move, defend, and leadership. So he be great on teams with a bunch of 30 pt figures. It's all about how you use him, and I could find 50 more ways to use a 100 pt Cap than the current one.

[JGrim]

Excellent figure.

I run the Avengers in every game I play almost religiously.

I think he'd work great.

But I gotta agree...Drop defend for more Toughness or Willpower.

Also...Drop a click of Leadership for Outwit. He's more balanced that way.

[ironman1110]

Darn near perfect.

I say drop defend for more Energy Sheild/Deflection, because Defend with 16 defense doesn't do much. Also, to personafy his "Never-say-die" attitude, I'd boost his stats to 8 movement w/ charge, 10 attack, 17 defense with Willpower and 3 damage with Outwit or Leadership. Have him make that one final effort, that one final assult and go down fighting.

[ironman1110]

I ment to say boost his stats on his last click like that.

[DTM]

100 points is just fine for a Vet Captain America, he by far deserves it. Maybe drop the Incapacitate, add another Arrow, and while I know no one agrees with me, i would like to see some Leap/Climb for the most agile human being on this earth. All in all, Very Nice, definately would play him if he had a dial like that.

[kon-el]

That is olay but I would give him some cce and take away the defend. I made a cap that cost 87 points and is pretty balanced. Here he is:

TEAM: Avengers POINTS: 87 RANGE: 8 ARROWS: 3

12 12 10 8 8 6 6 4
11 11 10 10 10 10 9 8
18 16 16 16 1414 12 12
3 3 2 22 2 11 1

[kon-el]

That is olay but I would give him some cce and take away the defend. I made a cap that cost 87 points and is pretty balanced. Here he is:

TEAM: Avengers POINTS: 87 RANGE: 8 ARROWS: 3

12 12 10 8 8 6 6 4
11 11 10 10 10 10 9 8
18 16 16 16 1414 12 12
3 3 2 22 2 1 1 1

[DTM]

Hmmmm, not bad at all there. But maybe lower his Speed some, 12 might be alittle high even for good ole Steve Rogers. hes really only 87 points with all that huh?

[kon-el]

That is olay but I would give him some cce and take away the defend. I made a cap that cost 87 points and is pretty balanced. Here he is:

TEAM: Avengers POINTS: 87 RANGE: 8 ARROWS: 3

12 12 10 8 8 6 6 4
11 11 10 10 10 10 9 8
18 16 16 16 14 14 12 12
3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1

[Redleg]

In my fanboy (yet objective) mind, he could look something like this:

Team: Ultimates (When a member of the Ultimates team defeats an enemy (shows 3 KOs in the stat slot), every other friendly Ultimates team member receives 1 click of healing.)

Range: 6
Arrow: 1

Spd : 8c.......8f.....7f.......7f.......6.......6........5.......5.....KO
Atk : 10e.....10e.....9.......9.......9.......9........8.......8.....KO
Def : 17es...18w....18w...17w....16w....15t....15t....15t...KO
Dam: 2o.......2o.....2o......2o.....2o........1.......1.....1o....KO


c= Charge
f= Flurry
e= Energy Explosion
es= Energy Shield
o=outwit
t=toughness

Here are my justifications:

The Ultimates are much more aggressive as a team. The team ability supports their current M.O.

Speed: Nothing too fast. Nothing too slow. Charge fits the personality. Flurry simulates his expertise at close combat (no CCE exists in Marvel...I'm hesitant to give it to Cap).

Atk: A 10 attack value is good. This Cap's AV stays relatively constant-as it should! 2 Clixs of EE for multiple shield attacks. Combined w/ CHG...it gives Cap options.

Defense: 17 w/ ES is a transfer from IC. Once he gets in close, Cap becomes more difficult to hit HTH but is easier to hit from range. Willpower is a good trait. Toughness (as from IC) represents his stamina over the long haul.

Damage: Nothing too extreme for damage. As for outwit...I think the Ultimate Cap is more of a strategist and tactician than a cheerleader. He develops plan after plan to exploit an opponent's weakness. Thus...outwit.

Point Value? I'm not certain how I'd calculate that.

Any thoughts?

[Thunderclese]

I'm sorry, I just don't like the Ultimates, or for that matter, most of the ultimate line. But otherwise, that's a neat take on Cap. Maybe they could do a Unique one with the ultimate version, but I'd rather see a 'proper' normal version, first, maybe a redo of the REV (they did it for DD), and a Unique "ultimate" version.....

[atomzbz]

What about RCE? He does know that shield pretty well (as stated in Captain America #2 of Heroes Return). After all he did throw his shield straight up in the air and like 30 seconds later it can down on a Hydra Operatives head while he had a hostage at knife point. It's in that same issue.

[JayThor]

I can't see RCE, since he does the same damage whether upclose or a a distance. multiple targets is a good idea, though.

[JohnShaft31]

Nice points all around. I have been wanting a more Batman-like Cap for awhile. His vet is ok, but the way the game has progressed, Cap should more reflect the ultimate human fighter and I think you captured it well.

Shaft

[DarkKnight316]

I agree mostly with everyone but I think he should definately have CCE, Willpower & Defend as well as 2 arrows to represent his ability to ricochet his shield. A little more outwit would'nt hurt either.

[Firebrand32]

I'd make him something like this:



S: 9....8c....8c....6c....6....6....6...5....4f
A: 12...11...11...10...9...8....8....7i....7i
De: 17ES...17t...16t...15t...15t...14w...13w...12w...11w
Da: 2RCE...2L...2L...2L...2o...2o...2o...2o...2o


Basically he starts out from range and then leads his team into battle. Then at the end of his dial he sets out for one last good charge. What do you think?

[JayThor]

I would give him high defense for the whole dial, and Willpower for a bunch of clicks. Defense would be :
19W, 19W, 18W, 18W, 17W, 17, 16E/S, 15E/S, 14E/S

[usagent23]

ok i also think Cap needs a new version...but he should have a least 1 click of super strength! he does have the super serum after all. i like the energy explosion idea..never thought of that!

[JayThor]

Sorry, but Cap doesn't have Super Strength. He is peak human, and never lifts and throws anything but his shield.

[usagent23]

i disagree if you read some of his back issues there was a time where he did have super strength...he eventully gave it up but he did have it and that is why i think at least one of his versions..maybe the exp should have it for like 1-2 clicks..

[Syzyx]

The Steve Rogers Captain America never had superstrength. The Captain America you're thinking of was the fellow who became USAgent and then went raving bonkers because of the faulty super-soldier serum. I think this thread is based on the Steve Rogers version of the Sentinel of Liberty, thus no super strength.

On the matter of Close Combat and Ranged Combat expert. I don't think Steve should get either one. He hits hard and fast but never really in a manner to kill. Yes, the man can rip open a tank hatch with his shield or throw the thing through the side of a submarine but I'd only rate that as a plain damage value of 3. Give him a couple clicks of Leadership and a couple of Outwit like WizKids did. Also I think the defensive superpowers should be Willpower all along but give him a starting defense of 19 and then move down pretty swiftly from there. Cap does get tired and injured and those things slow him down. The first click of charge is good and he definitely needs more than one target. I'd say three. And a slightly longer range. He has hit things on Ellis Island from the top of the Statue of Liberty. I'd suggest an 8 range as the previous exaple was a bit of an extreme situation. And definitely give him a better attack value! He's the most highly trained fighter in the Marvel Universe. His attack value should at least be 12 if not 13 or 14 (granted the 14 is extreme. Ultron has it but he was programmed with Cap's fighting skills). I do think giving him incapacitate further on down the dial is a good idea. And making him 100 points even is a good one too. He does things on his own quite well and should be able to be fielded as his own 100 point army.


Okay. I'm done. :)

[usagent23]

cap had super strength around issue 220-230 it is refrenced in issue 328-330..look it up....he should have super strength for at least 2 click to reflect this time..

[DTM]

Are you sure that was the Steve Rogers Cap, and not the John Walker one?

[zapdos]

There has only been one captain america and that is steven rogers.

[Thunderclese]

No, you're wrong there, John Walker was Captain America for awhile, when Steve became disillussioned, left the Avengers, and became "The Captain". That's when he met that lame-### Nomad, who became his sidekick for awhile

(sorry to any Nomad fans out there)

[flakbait]

Thunderclese is right. I have a few random issues of Cap (and Spider-Man) from the late eightees that star the Walker Cap. rather thuggish chap.

[grey_zealot]

Hold up.

Yes, Cap was FORCED out of being Cap during the eighties. That's when Walker was tapped be the government to be Captain America. (The government forced Rogers out because they wanted a Cap they could control.)

It was during the same story line that Cap's strength was temporarily boosted by the Power Broker.

But even further back, during the 70's Cap had temporarily boosted strength while fighting the Secret Empire (I forget how, but all this is referred to in Busiek's AVENGERS FOREVER.)

[JayThor]

I think the truest Captain America that we are shooting for here would not have Super Strength. One storyline isn't enough to alter the YEARS of seeing the other things we thought he should have. Outwit, Willpower, Leadership, Charge- these are the things that define Cap for 60+ years.

[usagent23]

exactly what i am talking about...yes i know all about walker and his run as cap...i have every cap issue mad sine 100 back in the sixties. and if you check around the 70's issues again i think 220-235 you will see he had super strength...granted he only had it for a short time but still it would be nice if he could have it as a clix. if ya guys don't believe us just look it up...nuff said on that

[usagent23]

we get a new elektra for every stupid incarnation she has had all we are saying is he should get super strength for like 1-2 clicks to reflect his super strength...........

[JayThor]

And all we are saying is we don't agree.....
No one is disputing your collection or your knowledge of it, just that it doesn't fit the other thousands of appearances Cap has had without it.

[Valandar]

The whole point of Cap is that he does NOT have any superhuman attributes... what makes him such an icon in the MU is that while he may be as fast, strong, tough, skilled, and agile as a human being can get, he is NOT super. Yes, as shown during the brief period of time that he lost his Super Soldier Serum (it had bonded with some drugs from an exploding meth lab, and they had to completely replace all of his blood ... it was later revealed that his body was genetically altered to start producing the SSS again), he is augmented... but only to human peak performance levels, not to superhuman levels.

While a U Cap with SS to represent either John Walker, or the brief period where Cap actually had Super Strength, might be interesting, a REV fig to represent Cap through the majority of his career would NOT have Super Strength at any point in his dial. To give it to him would, IMHO, cheapen the character.

[JayThor]

I agree, totally.

[Thunderclese]

Me as well. And I agree that the freakin' number of Elektras is almost idiotic.

[Thunderclese]

If only characters most people liked got that many versions...


(not saying nobody likes Elektra, just saying there's a lot of more popular characters that went through a bunch of changes that should be so lucky as to get 8 different Clix)

[grey_zealot]

I understand what is being said: The current version of Cap from the IC set is the "leader" that he has consistently been for decades.

But I'm with the group that's open-minded enough to allow for documented versions of Cap that would open up new strategies and tactical ideas for this character. (Heck, I'd also like to see a mini of Cap in an actual battle pose, rather than the cheesy "recruiting poster" pose he was given. What about the classic pose: A stance with legs slightly apart, shield on left arm and in front of him, with eyes looking over the top of the shield. Slightly crouched as if ready to pounce, right hand in a fist. From that stance he always looked like he could do anything; spring forward, shield bash, throw a punch, dodge to the side, etc.)

Anyway, my point is there is room in this strategy game for other interpretations. Since Cap also used to do a lot of work alongside SHIELD, I'd also like to see a version with the SHIELD team ability. (Cap and Nick of the same team; that is lighting my brain on fire.)

[Redleg]

Different versions would be good.

If Wizkids got really bold...they could do a Rookie version that cost 85 pts, an Experienced that cost 92...and a Vet that is over 100 points (while losing all the traits that make him Cap).

[JayThor]

I do agree that a new pose is in order, Gray Zealot. We are being open-minded to new possibilities, which is why this thread exists in the first place. To say otherwise is to say we are closed-minded because we don't agree with your view. We have our views, as you have yours. We are just basing ours on tradition, rather than isolated incidents. Obviously, with the 6-arm Spiderman in CT and the Green Goblin we got in XP, anything is possible.

[Doctor Strange]

I would like to see a cap with willpower and incapicitate. Ive seen him tie up foes way past his power level while the team deals with the other villans. Example, when he was "fighting" namor in "the order". Cap had no way of actually taking out namor on his own, but he tied up Namor long enough for the avengers to fight Hulk, Surfer and Doctor Strange. Seems like willpower, incapicitate and a high def fit that rather nicely.

I could also see a version of him made with the defend superpower and a 17 def.

Or even a version with Perplex, which I consider to be a more better leadership.

[JayThor]

Perplex with a 2 damage would be good. It give him the option to boost his range (for that almost too far shot), attack (for that "must- have" hit) or damage (for that "gotta take him out, or the world goes bang" thing), or guide a teammate to a better attack. Willpower is a must, with a high defense, like 18 or 19. Between the shield and his athleticism, he is very hard to hit.

[Lonehawk]

I dunno.

I want willpower down the dial, but the Cap I remember used to protect his team-mates from ranged attacks with his shield, so I think defend on the first click (w/ 18 defense) suits the myth.

Perplex or leadership? Maybe start with leadership for a couple of clicks to organise the team, and then switch to perplex once he's seen some action and he's using his experience to maximum effect.

At the bottom end of the dial he should have ESD for a couple of clicks combined with outwit.

Cap should have some incapacitate, and V certainly should have 2 arrows. 3 damage feels right, with 2 starting on the perplex clicks and continuing down to the end of the dial.

And finally I want a U with Steve Rogers as Nomad. He didn't use a shield so can have willpower all the way down

[DTM]

Why do you guys think he should have Incapacitate? He doesnt tie anyone up, or stun people with a certain attack, which I believe is what INC is all about.

[Lonehawk]

Don't think too literally. Incapacitate isn't just webbing and tying up - its all about giving your team the competitive advantage.

For example, Cap once used his shield to reflect the sunlight into Zemo's eyes. As a result Zemo fluffed his shot and the world came falling in - literally. This is a great source material case of non-literal incap.

Yes, I know its expensive but its another way of representing experience and skill - which is what ol' Winghead is all about.

Oh, and its also #### useful in game terms as well, especially with multiple arrows and willpower, which is why V Taskmaster is such a dude!!!

[Lonehawk]

They censor D@@n?

Well I'll be d***ed

[grey_zealot]

JayThor,

Sorry, I didn't mean for my last post to read so tersely or imply anyone was close-minded. I didn't mean to come off as "my opinion is the only one that matters," because I'm not like that. I was just trying to argue in favor of a different set of powers for Cap that we haven't seen represented yet.

I had no intention of offending.

[skinnykid71]

I have also made a custom cap and played around with him until he came out to 100 points (a one man army unto himself in a 100 pt game) on Retardog's generator.
so for 100 pts you get (or I guess I get):

Avengers team ability
6 range with 2 targets
9 clicks of life.

8 chrg 8 chrg 8 chrg 7 chrg 7 6 6 6 6
11 10 9 9 9 incap 8 incap 8 8 7
18 wp 17 wp 16 wp 16wp 15 wp 15 wp 14wp 14wp 13
3 ldr 2 cce 2 cce 2 cce 1 1 1 ow 1 ow 1ow

now i know that close combat expert is not a Marvel power, but he's my Cap so i don't care. Cap is every kind of combat expert (although not on my dial).
i also tried to model him after batman alot, hence will power all the way down the dial. i played around with the idea of throwing in other defense powers. but in the end stuck with will power. instead of giving him energy shield or toughness i just upped his defense stats and gave him an extra click of life. i would like to see him have defend, but i'm a sucker for will power.
i only gave him leadership for 1 click because of the avengers team power. with this, you get free moves out the wazoo. and if your feilding an avengers team your going to have alot of free moves. so leadership is less valueeble. i put the same reasoning behind my custom magneto. but still, he's cap. The Leader in comics (that isn't green).
the last thing i decided to give him was a couple of clicks of incapsitate (sp?). the reason being his shield. i liked the idea of him having dual incapcitate. bouncing his shield off of one guy, then a wall, then the floor, then the second guy. i also coupled this with the clicks where he has a straight one damage.


anyway, there he is. my interpretation and why i think he should be the way he is.

[The_captain]

Ha! the thought of giving cap Super Strength, just because he had it for quite a time. What are they going to do next, a grounded storm with leadership.....hey, wait a secound......

[nuclearbash]

what about running shot for a click he does run and throw his sheild

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

HERE'S MY CAP TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK

http://www.aduckwhat.com/robert/heroclix/customs_view.cfm

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

WELL SORT OF IT'S IN MARVEL UNDER CABLE

[CquinnO27]

That's a #### good version, I hope WizKids is paying attention. I mean we get a freakin Elektra in every set. and the recent one that could take on the Hulk by herself.
The least WizKids could do is give us a decent Cap.

[JayThor]

No, the least they could do is ignore us. It would be nice, if they noticed and made a new one. Remember, they owe us nothing. If they choose to remake him, or anyone else, we get a bonus.

[Doctor Strange]

Captain America
team; Spiderman (there is a good reason)
Range: 6
Arrows: 2

movement 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 5
Attack 12 11 10 9 9 8 7 7
Defense 18 17 16 15 14 14 13 12
Damage 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1


This is my custom cap. He would be a unique and represents all the times he leads multiple heroes from the marvel universe in a grand scale attack against a uber powerfull enemy. The Onsluaght crisis, Secret Wars, The order.. these are but a few examples of this type of all star team. I opted to give this captain america the wildcard team to represent this special occasion. This captain america forgoes his usual "leadership" power in favor of perplex, which is in effect a superior leadership for dire times. His defensive abilities are where he truly shines tho. The combination of defend, willpower, es/d and toughness truly make him the legend that he is.

Most importantly tho, even tho you may disagree with some of my power choices, the playability of this figure will feel like captain america on the battle field.

[JayThor]

Dr. Strange, I think this version is great! I would keep Willpower for one more, and E/S the rest, but this is awesome. Good job!

[SteveRogers]

I made the Ultimates Captain America at...

http://www.aduckwhat.com/robert/her...ustoms_view.cfm

(under ultimate mr. hyde in the marvel section, the name of my Cap dial is Ultimates Captain America for 92 pts.)