Solution to Outwit so you stop complaining

[CosmicBeing]

I've seen a lot of complaints about Outwit. The prime example is Black Panter making Juggernaut a little wuss.

The problem can be fixed quite simply. First you make it so that the character has to be within range (if they have no range give them a range of 4 like they do for MC)

But then most importantly make the character ROLL FOR IT!!! I mean the Mandarin would have an easier job of negating Juggy's powers than BP. He's more powerful(which is shown by his AV)
Also Juggy is not just going to sit there and let BP do exploratory surguery on him in order to remove his gem. BP would have to think of and then perform some really smart move... and I personally think that that much action at least deserves a roll of the dice to see if it works.

I know you can't change the rules in tournaments and stuff but if you like this idea you can at least use it in the comfort of your own home.

P.S. It's only a game people, you play it for fun, if you and your friends don't agree w/ the rules CHANGE THEM!

[Key-gun]

I think that is an interesting idea but i have a question if you roll to outwit will it cost an action.

[Mongoose]

That should be made a rule. I mean Juggy is now so certifiably useless, that I really can't see using him effectively. I wouldn't make the outwit cost an action though.

[Wytstagg]

Yeah I kinda dig that idea, rolling for outwit....as long as it DOESN'T cost an action. Changing outwit like that is big...it changes the skill alot but don't overkill by making it cost an action

[Wytstagg]

Make it like leadership....if you make it good...if you don't then its no big lose

[CosmicBeing]

No it would not cost an action.

This is the way my friend and I play it and it works great:classic:

[Cuchullain]

I wouldn't mess with Outwit. One, you can simply target the outwitter, the same as you'd target a probability controller. Two, Outwit is the power that most makes a Heroclix game a "story." In a well told story, Black Panther WOULD outwit Juggernaut and make his power moot. The same way Batman has outwitted countless enemies more powerful than himself. How else would you incorporate intelligence into the game, except through Outwit and Perplex?

Cuchullain

[weezer_10]

All these complaints about Outwit...

"Aww he outwitted my Invulnerability, no fair"... Wah wah wah.

What's stopping anyone from outwitting Outwit or opening a can of whoopass on the outwitter?:p

[VenomDaBomb]

I like the idea of limitted range but no rolling that be ghey

[Doctor Strange]

OUtwit is more than just making a character loose a power. Spiderman or Black panther dont make juggernaut loose the gem that gives him his power, they trick him so that his invulnerability is no longer an advantage. Spiderman has tricked juggernaut into falling into a pit, faling into the ocean.. etc.. At the end of the fight, spiderman has not "killed" juggernaut, he has "KOed" juggernaut, which could be as simple as putting him in a position that he can do no harm. This would be the end of the fight in the comic books. No death, no perminant injury.. Juggernaut was just put out of comision so that the city would be safe.

[YouCan'tStopMe]

I agree with Weezer_10 although not the way he said it. Outwit isn't "Broken" thus it doesn't need to be fixed. Heck, RCE wasn't "Broken" either and if I grant you that in combination with outwit it was (IF I grant you that) can you tell me why that now means that I shouldn't be able to use Running Shot and RCE with my Cyclops anymore? Anyway Let's hope they don't try to "Fix" the game anymore, it's fine as it is.

[Insaniac99]

personally i don't like your idea bout the range, though the rolling sounds like a neat idea. The reason i don't like the range limit is becasue look waht happens to Veteran Mandarin, he has outwit at twelve range and then he gets even MORE dangerous, he can MC ANYONE and do three clicks to ANYONE before they get in range, have shee hulk in your range? out with her INV the first turn, and attack, she gets close to you but not quiet BtB (2 away) so what do you do? Outwit here INV and attack, removing her charge and putting her near the end of the dial, sure you pushed mandarin once, but you barely lost stats, then Shulkie gets to move so the choice is to stay and clear, push and try get away (not able to get out of mandarin's range) or push to get into mandarin's base, either way Madarin wins BIG time and it would work similarly with ranged pieces, take Veteran Doom, you stand at 12 range and attack Doom after outwitting his Mastermind, he also lost Running shot and has to move to get in range, allowing Madarin to push and attack him, making it almost impossible for Doom to even hit madarin (needing a nine) now if doom ran, Mandarin could slowly try to corner doom, and since doom would usually be in the 12 range of mandarin his willpower or Outwit is gone, and madarin just can't be touched by Doom.

[AnOnymOu5]

Except Doom has running shot...

[Unasoda]

Outwit does not make Juggy useless.

You poor complainers need to read more comics. ;)

Have Mystique perplex Juggs' damage, have Magneto TK him into Black Panther's face, and have Juggernaut visit five clicks of misery on the Outwitter, rendering him useless. And likely KOed.

The Brotherhood is one of the best teams available in Marvel clix. You just have to figure out how to use them together.

[Ozymandas]

Leave it like it is. If you don't like being outwitted, then just get some outwitters on your own team & see how your opponent likes it, or target the opposing outwitters & take them out early in the game.

Sometimes we forget that one of the key elements of this game is building a team that is ready to tackle any challenge!

Besides, if I started rolling for outwit than would feel like I had to start rolling for perplex & probability control, which would only slow down the game.

'Nuff said!

[darius_dax1]

Outwit is fine the way it is. Toughness and Inv. are powers that are always on Outwit is a power that needs to be activated for it to be useful. If you make an activation roll for Outwit, I propose that an activation roll for Toughness and Inv. be instituted as well. It has a range. The range is 10 and LOS needs to be established.

I got my ash kicked the other day because I forgot to have Mandarin Outwit something. Totally defeated myself that game. Outwit isn't too powerful. And I like the idea that Outwit and Perplex represent the intelligence factor in the game. Well said!

[JayThor]

Too many dice rolls, and you have Warhammer. Leave it like it is, and bring your own outwitter.

[warden]

Originally posted by weezer_10
What's stopping anyone from outwitting Outwit ...

Stealth, that's what. Characters like Black Panther and Nightwing cannot usually be outwitted because they use stealth. Not only can't you outwit their outwit, you can't outwit their stealth either. Broken.

Andrew

[Ozymandas]

Rookie Steel.

[Jason Blood]

The rules are fine the way they are!!!!


IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!!

[Thorgrin]

True to a point. Yes, it would make sense that Mr. Fantastic would devise a contraption or whatever to up the odds in his favor, but we are talking about a game here. Let's put it in another terms.

R-Mr. Fantastic
U-Super Skrull
V-Bullseye
V-Firelord

Do you ever see this combo in the comic books...? Yet per this game, that's a viable team (within a point limit, of course). So one figure gets to take away Savage Hulks invulnerability and then these 3 guys just get to punk him..? Cmon, that's a bit much. Yes, you can target the outwitter, but that's assuming you can get to him.

For example, I move my black panther into hindering terrain, I then RS with Super Skrull while he's got Firelord. Takes shot and hits. Now hulk is in invulnerability. outwit that. Take shot with firelord. Now with avalanche, I create barrier around panther. So now you're basically taking two actions minimum to get to panther while there are 2 heavy hitters on the board. Your hulk is hurt and isn't in range to do anything (same can be said about juggernaut or any other brick). If you go after panther, you're going to be hitting the barrier with at least one of your big hitters (3 points of damage minimum to break) and then you've got to run up to him.

Now I'm not going to complain that the power is broken. I also don't believe you need to roll for the power to activate nor do I think it should take an action. I would, however, like to see it used like Mind Control in that you need to be within range, minimum of 4. Same with probability control. We have started to use this in our group and it works very well and actually helps out some of the lesser used figures.

Of course that's a house rule as I doubt these powers will ever be changed officially. :)

Originally posted by Cuchullain
I wouldn't mess with Outwit. One, you can simply target the outwitter, the same as you'd target a probability controller. Two, Outwit is the power that most makes a Heroclix game a "story." In a well told story, Black Panther WOULD outwit Juggernaut and make his power moot. The same way Batman has outwitted countless enemies more powerful than himself. How else would you incorporate intelligence into the game, except through Outwit and Perplex?

Cuchullain

[Thorgrin]

You mean other than the fact that batman/nightwing/black panther has stealth...? (which are the main 3 that do have it.)

Also "opening a can of whoopass" is hard to do as well. If you're playing the figure correctly, you'll be able to position, take advantage of his outwit (even if it is for a turn only) and fire with your heavy hitters before your opponent can actually knock him off the outwit.

Again, not saying broken. I would just like to see some more consistency in the game is all on this end. Barrier does not LOS, but is still restricted to range. Pulsewave restricted to half range, mind control is limited by range. So why is PC and Outwit not? Ah well. Good thing about house rules! :)

Originally posted by weezer_10
All these complaints about Outwit...

"Aww he outwitted my Invulnerability, no fair"... Wah wah wah.

What's stopping anyone from outwitting Outwit or opening a can of whoopass on the outwitter?:p

[hisshers]

START PLAYING CHECKERS. With this much whining, you shouldn't be permitted to play clix

[pc918]

Everyone usually goes for the pricey pieces(points) in tourny settings, but I will usually take out the pieces that have outwit first. Nightcrawler is a great piece to use to get up close, and take out Mr. Outwit.

[Thorgrin]

Hmmm, some of us are actually trying to debate and improve the game somewhat. So I take it your defense of keeping outwit the same is "quit whinig" to paraphrase. Thus giving our side credibility and a win.

Every point that has been mentioned about how to defeat it has thus been counterpointed with no rebuttal. Seriously, NO REBUTTAL.

It's a game of maneuver, positioning, luck and strategy. If played correctly, a 27 point piece can effectively neutralize a 201 point figure (hulk) or more (OWAW Superman). Seriously. That's really the point of this matter. Does the power justify the point value.

For example, RCE does +2 damage, generally speaking anyone under 50 points does 3 points in range and less when b2b (theoretically). Most figures that are going to get hurt at that level are other figures 50 points or less. Vision, Quasar, Hulk, Spidey, etc can all take 3 points and survive and not be too far hurt (unless you gang up on him and that's perfectly fine). Same goes with the next tier, even firelord. Most people in the next bracket can take 4-5 points, so not broken at all.

Mindcontrol, there is a consequence if you take on someone that's over 100 points and you take a click of damage. Most figures are over 50 with this power and the few that aren't (Mad Hatter, Puppet Master, rookie controller, I think) either don't have high stats (exception would be Mad Hatter/Puppet Master if they're next to someone to share powers), don't have a deep dial, loses it quickly or is limited by range. Doesn't neutralize the figure. May given an action or push, but they'll still have their defensive power and/or offensive power when it comes to their turn.

Probability control, most of the time it's really inconsequential for the enemy and more of a benefit for the team it's on. Plus the figures don't have stealth, don't have fast movements, gets hit easily (low defense) and does little/no damage. Again, doesn't neutralize a high point figure because most have really high attack ratings anyway

Barrier, a power I think needs to be revised to include LOS, but that's neither here or there. The only thing it does is either block your guys in or blocks their guys out. Not too hampering. Even if you put a barrier up around his big figure, he'll still have his powers for the onslaught of damage he'd take the next round anyway.

No game is perfect. It's that plain and simple. I don't think the original arguments to remove it and some of the suggestions to implement were on the money, but I do believe that to improve the game and thus have some variety in tournaments is to review the game mechanics from time to time. This is what Wizkids did after Infinity Challenge. For example, they changed the point cost of incapacitate? Why? Because most figures that did have it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, how shallow dials and cost too much for what it could really do. They changed the game mechanics, it was subtle, but it was changed.

So instead of just saying "if it's not broke, don't fix it", why not actually bring a good argument on why it's not broke.

Originally posted by hisshers
START PLAYING CHECKERS. With this much whining, you shouldn't be permitted to play clix

[Thorgrin]

Usually no one even fields many pricey figures. The general tournament team is going to have some of the elements below (not including DC and/or mixed tourneys). Assume any level of figure could be used, though exp/vet are the primary versions.

Black Panther
Scarlet Witch/Black Cat
Firelord
Dr. Strange
Bullseye
Ultron
Logan/Spiral
Wasp

Most of the time it's the old Ultron/Bullseye combo. Generally speaking there's a firelord and/or flyers that have RCE because they can still do ranged combat even if they're hovering.

Originally posted by pc918
Everyone usually goes for the pricey pieces(points) in tourny settings, but I will usually take out the pieces that have outwit first. Nightcrawler is a great piece to use to get up close, and take out Mr. Outwit.

[DCFan#1]

Thorgrin wrote:
"So instead of just saying "if it's not broke, don't fix it", why not actually bring a good argument on why it's not broke."

Because an argument doesn't need to be made. Do you take your car to the mechanic when it's running fine? Do you tell people "my car is running great, the spark plugs are all firing just as they should, the coolant is circulating properly, and the RPM's are in the standard guidelines."

-Rich

[Thorgrin]

Don't know about you, but yes I do. It's called Tune-ups, oil changes and other things. It's called maintenance. Instead of driving my car into the ground, I'd rather make improvements on it.

So if you want to use that analogy, I can easily counter it. Why do people replace their stock cassette/radio with a better one? because it IMPROVES their car.. Why do people put on better tires or changes them out due to weather? Because it IMPROVES the car.

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Thorgrin wrote:
"So instead of just saying "if it's not broke, don't fix it", why not actually bring a good argument on why it's not broke."

Because an argument doesn't need to be made. Do you take your car to the mechanic when it's running fine? Do you tell people "my car is running great, the spark plugs are all firing just as they should, the coolant is circulating properly, and the RPM's are in the standard guidelines."

-Rich

[DCFan#1]

You are assuming my "car" needs a tune-up. It doesn't. Any change to a power is an overhaul. A tune-up is a clarification in the FAQ's like having to agree to use Adventure Pack items.

-Rich

[I_Blame_You]

Originally posted by Key-gun
I think that is an interesting idea but i have a question if you roll to outwit will it cost an action.

All along I've thought the act of merely having outwit cost an action token would water down its power.

Having said that, I'll also say that I don't have a problem with outwit as is.

[Unasoda]

Thorgrin, with all due respect, since you're the one trying to say that Outwit on character like Black Panther is broken, then the burden of proof rests on YOU.

So far, I've seen no compelling evidence that BP's outwit - or any other character's outwit - is broken. I can and have dealt with it in tournaments. If my opponent wants to field 3 rookie BPs and wants to outwit me to kingdom come, that's great. I'll find a workaround.

A word on house rules - playing them makes you soft. If you ever hope to compete in conventions, where house rules aren't allowed, you'd better learn to deal with duplicate figures, firelords, outwit, barriers, and everything else "broken" about HeroClix.

[phonixinmi]

Unasoda, very well said.

For those claiming that the outwit ability is "broken", the simplest way to deal with ANY ranged ability that helps a stealthed character (whether it's outwit, perplex, probability control, etc.) is to BLOCK THE LINE OF SIGHT!!!

Use figures with barrier, use thugs, whatever. As long as the LOS is blocked, their ability becomes limited.

[remywokeup]

This is why Outwit is fine the way it is:

It costs 9 points per click. 9 points to sometimes neutralize a power that probably costs less. The only power more expensive in Marvel is Invulnerability at 12.

Is it right to be able to cancel out a 12 point power with a 9 point one?

I think so. Most figures with Invulnerability have very deep dials. The average damage of all figures is about 3. Doing 1 damage at a time against a figure with 10 clicks of health who has a medic waiting behind them is lame. The solution: Outwit.

[Thorgrin]

First off I didn't say it was broken. I realize my posts are long and I put it at the tail end or buried it in the middle.

As far as burden of proof, it's obvious that no matter what I say (after 2 long posts now), I'm not going to change your mind.

Let me ask you this, then. In a tournament of, say, 300 points. What's the likelihood of a team that will actually win and has, say, juggernaut...? I personally think it's poor tactics to tie half your point value in one figure, but that's beside the point. He's a good figure, invulnerable for a long time, good starting stats, good damage, etc. So theoretically he should be played a little more. Why isn't the original hulk played more? He gets tougher down his dial.

Also, you mention it makes me "soft" by playing with house rules. How so? Actually it forces me to play with people I normally wouldn't play with. So instead of playing with only 6 figures with 2 different figure types (i.e. exp wasp + rookie firelord), it makes me think of other possibilities, in essence playing the game with more options and more flexibility.

To be honest, you're not much of an envoy of the game. In a sealed tournament, anything goes. I can care less if I play 3 wasps or what my opponent decides to play because that's going to be the hand that is dealt to them. I also did not gripe about playing dupes. If someone wants to run 5 firelords, then oh well. I plan accordingly, make a good showing and try to play it out.

I am NOT suggesting taking an action for this power.

I am NOT suggesting rolling for the power

What I AM suggesting is CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY. I'm glad I play more friendly games than tournament games. I guess in your games it's easy to judge as the results are the same, predictable teams and the questions have the same, predictable answers.

So instead of even attempting a debate, a discussion if you will, all the people that doesn't think it's broken just say "ah, it's not broke, don't fix it" or "you're soft" or anything but actually talking about an issue someone brought up. Instead of trying to possible look at a different point of view, you'd rather be closed minded and just take the easy way out. *sigh* How disappointing. I'm no longer even going to worry about th is thread. Sorry, I'd rather have a good conversation with people that are openminded and actually have the possibility to see someone else's point of view.

After all, we not be a sheep. It's easier...

Originally posted by Unasoda
Thorgrin, with all due respect, since you're the one trying to say that Outwit on character like Black Panther is broken, then the burden of proof rests on YOU.

So far, I've seen no compelling evidence that BP's outwit - or any other character's outwit - is broken. I can and have dealt with it in tournaments. If my opponent wants to field 3 rookie BPs and wants to outwit me to kingdom come, that's great. I'll find a workaround.

A word on house rules - playing them makes you soft. If you ever hope to compete in conventions, where house rules aren't allowed, you'd better learn to deal with duplicate figures, firelords, outwit, barriers, and everything else "broken" about HeroClix.

[batfink]

IMHO, Outwit is there for game balance. Otherwise, there would be no way to stop figs with Inv. I know when I play BP I might as well paint a target on him because he's the first fig my oppenents go after. The only time I've seen Juggy taken down really quick, Juggy moved in to take out r BP, but he was also in range of Firelord, Ultron & I forget who else.

[DCFan#1]

Thorgrin wrote:
"Also, you mention it makes me "soft" by playing with house rules. How so? Actually it forces me to play with people I normally wouldn't play with. So instead of playing with only 6 figures with 2 different figure types (i.e. exp wasp + rookie firelord), it makes me think of other possibilities, in essence playing the game with more options and more flexibility."

Where are you playing where this is the norm? Do the people you play with have no interest in any of the new figures? NO ONE that I play with uses FL or Wasp or Vulture anymore. I can't imagine how dull your games must be.

Do house rules make you soft? Absolutely.

-Rich

[thjimmy]

DCFan has made a couple of good points on the last 2 pages:

1) My car is running well, so I won't replace the engine

2) You are missing out on a lot by only using IC figs.

A counter to point 1 was made - "You upgrade from cassette to CD, making your car better."
- True, but you didn't fix the cassette. You replaced it. You took out Vulture and put in Doombot.

Point 2 - beautiful. "Firelord is broken" was chanted very loudly for a long time. CT made the chanting lessen. Xplosion has created so much diversity that no figure is "broken."

We have hundreds of excellent figures and combinations to use that are devestating if you aren't ready for them. multiple Perplexers, Probability Control, Enhancement, etc. all change the balance of the game.

The only way to "fix" all of these powers is to eliminate them.

If you want a completely balanced, always fair game of strategy, try Chess.

When you want to add powers and dice and comics to Chess, play Heroclix.

[DCFan#1]

Thank you THJimmy, I couldn't have said it better myself.

It's a shame that Thorgrin isn't here to see it...

-Rich

[Unasoda]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
[B]
Let me ask you this, then. In a tournament of, say, 300 points. What's the likelihood of a team that will actually win and has, say, juggernaut...? I personally think it's poor tactics to tie half your point value in one figure, but that's beside the point. He's a good figure, invulnerable for a long time, good starting stats, good damage, etc. So theoretically he should be played a little more. Why isn't the original hulk played more? He gets tougher down his dial.

I can make a 300 point team of all Brotherhood of Mutants members, including our pal Juggy, with maybe one nonaligned thug, and I can probably defeat any "broken" cheese team you throw at me at least 50% of the time.


Also, you mention it makes me "soft" by playing with house rules. How so? Actually it forces me to play with people I normally wouldn't play with. So instead of playing with only 6 figures with 2 different figure types (i.e. exp wasp + rookie firelord), it makes me think of other possibilities, in essence playing the game with more options and more flexibility.


Someone else already covered this - at my venue, no one plays Wasp, Black Panther, or Firelord anymore because everyone has figured out how to defeat those teams. The only people I see with those figures are kids who haven't competed in tournament-level games very often.


To be honest, you're not much of an envoy of the game.


Why, because I am following WizKids statement that they will not make any significant changes to the rules or any figures? Because I"m playing the game as the rules state? Cheap shots aren't going to win you any supporters if you're looking to make a point, meine fruende.


What I AM suggesting is CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY. I'm glad I play more friendly games than tournament games. I guess in your games it's easy to judge as the results are the same, predictable teams and the questions have the same, predictable answers.


On the contrary, as I said, we hardly see any Black Panthers, Firelords, or Wasps here anymore, unless it's some poor newbie who thinks they are the be-all, end-all of the game. I love judging, because it's always fun to see how people make teams and, even more importantly, use strategies. I can guarantee you, if you build the same team over and over, I can find a dozen ways to defeat it, as could any player who understands the basic elements of this game.

We have CONSISTANTLY played with the book-rules since the game came out, and we don't have this problem. Period.


So instead of even attempting a debate, a discussion if you will, all the people that doesn't think it's broken just say "ah, it's not broke, don't fix it" or "you're soft" or anything but actually talking about an issue someone brought up. Instead of trying to possible look at a different point of view, you'd rather be closed minded and just take the easy way out. *sigh* How disappointing. I'm no longer even going to worry about th is thread. Sorry, I'd rather have a good conversation with people that are openminded and actually have the possibility to see someone else's point of view.


Cut out the personal jabs, and maybe more people will open their minds and listen to you.

If I didn't see evidence every weekend that undermines your basic thesis, then I would listen to you. Sorry about that. But like I said, no one plays with those figs at my venue anymore, because they would die. Black Panther is an annoyance, not a gamebreaker. I've seen it every Sunday afternoon for the last four months. I really don't see how repeated empirical evidence to the contrary makes me closed-minded; if anything, it only serves to make you come across as a desperate player upset that he hasn't concocted a decent way to deal with the Panther.

[HCannonFodder]

How about this wild idea...

Hit black Panther (or any other char with outwit) for at least 3.

ooooh, that's tough!!!

I know it's unfair, making all of the whiners have to ATTACK to end someone's ability, but I find it makes the game pass much quicker than only outwitting, perplexing, and moving during the game. You get more points, too.

[Mongoose]

Outwit does not make Juggy useless.

You poor complainers need to read more comics.

Have Mystique perplex Juggs' damage, have Magneto TK him into Black Panther's face, and have Juggernaut visit five clicks of misery on the Outwitter, rendering him useless. And likely KOed.

The Brotherhood is one of the best teams available in Marvel clix. You just have to figure out how to use them together.
It does when you consider a Vet. Juggy costs 146 points. I mean a rookie Black Panther costs 36 points. Lob in a long range combat monger (Cyclops)., and Juggy is uselss after 2 actions (He has a very low mvmt. rate afterwards, and couldn't move out of the way if his life depended on it). Your comparison is poor at best as well. I mean a Magneto + Mystique + Juggs is easily over 180 points. I can defeat Juggs w/ just 110 points in character value, and all this due to outwit.

[Unasoda]

Originally posted by Mongoose
It does when you consider a Vet. Juggy costs 146 points. I mean a rookie Black Panther costs 36 points. Lob in a long range combat monger (Cyclops)., and Juggy is uselss after 2 actions (He has a very low mvmt. rate afterwards, and couldn't move out of the way if his life depended on it). Your comparison is poor at best as well. I mean a Magneto + Mystique + Juggs is easily over 180 points. I can defeat Juggs w/ just 110 points in character value, and all this due to outwit.

First, I wouldn't field Juggs in anything less than a 300-point game.

Second, I would put a rookie Juggs and a rookie Mags out there. Anything less and you're risking too many points.

Third, I would position Juggs behind Mags, with Mags just out of BP's Outwit range.

Then I would use TK to bop Juggs in front of BP, using BP as a shield to block LOS from Cyclops. You can plan continengies for this against fliers, too.

Mystique does her thing before I TK Mags.

Smack. No more Panther. Magneto tosses a few objects at Cyke to keep him busy. Juggs bases Cyke and cracks his knuckles. Mags plays mopup with any other figures out there.

I would stick a Toad or a Rogue on there too to deal with any other malcontents. Being that I'm at work, I really can't make a 300-point team off the top of my head, but it could be done.

Point is: Deny the opponent the use of outwit, or make him use it in REACTION instead of PROACTION.

Check out the great article on Tempo on the Heroclix website. It's a major point of chess, and a major point of this (or any other) strategy game.

[Skarn]

Just out of curiosity, what do you roll to see if Outwit works? 1-3, no; 4-6 yes? I hope it isn't attack rating. I don't think Outwit is broken...is it a pain in the arse? Sure, it can be, but other powers are just as much of a headache. The majority of the time, it isn't Outwit that beats me. It's either a) my opponent's army being better constructed or working well against me, b) poor tactical decisions on my part, c) the most popular reason for ALL players, the dice screw me, or love my opponent.

Terrain is the biggest advantage against the Stealth/Outwit guys, hide around a corner and HSS drive-by or Charge 'em. Use a taxi and drop someone off to lay havoc and war upon their heads.

If you DO tie up half (or more) of your points in one figure, you better make sure it's the right one (Juggernaut is a bad choice, heh). OWAW superman can deal with all 3 of the stealthy types easily, so that's a bad example. Oh, and Juggernaut isn't bad because of Outwit...his damage drops down to 2 fairly quickly, he becomes as slow as a snail, and w/o charge he needs a TKer to get him into the fight.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
It's called maintenance.

Maintenance, base word :maintain--Meaning to keep in current condition.

[Thorgrin]

Well actually saw this response before closing out my thread.

An actual INTELLECTUAL and well thought out response, I applaud you.

To counter point that. What's the average point cost (deep dial or not) of the figure that has invulnerability? If I had to make a guess, it'd be over 100 + points. Let's throw out that stat. What's the minimum point figure that has invulnerability/imperviousness? Rookie She-Hulk appears to have it at a low cost of 59 points. Rookie Black Panther is at 27, so roughly 2 times the cost.

Medics help everyone out, so your opponent that has invulnerability will also benefit.

Yes, most figures with invulnerabiltiy have a deeper dial.

So on that aspect, I would agree with you. So I'm going to bring up a different point of view then.

Why would a character that normally have a range of 0 now get a range of 10 with their power? Mind control does not get this option. Again, talking on just consistency here.

I don't want a figure to have to roll for outwit. That would make it pretty lame at that point, but limiting it's range would be a good middle ground.

Originally posted by remywokeup
This is why Outwit is fine the way it is:

It costs 9 points per click. 9 points to sometimes neutralize a power that probably costs less. The only power more expensive in Marvel is Invulnerability at 12.

Is it right to be able to cancel out a 12 point power with a 9 point one?

I think so. Most figures with Invulnerability have very deep dials. The average damage of all figures is about 3. Doing 1 damage at a time against a figure with 10 clicks of health who has a medic waiting behind them is lame. The solution: Outwit.

[Thorgrin]

A. House rules do not make myself or other people "soft". What it does is makes use people that aren't the popular/fad figure to play.

B. Most house rules are for FRIENDLY play. I.E. TO HAVE FUN

C. In tournaments, it's a good way to BREAK THE MONOTONY

D. This is the norm in a lot of places, hence a lot of places have either outright banned Firelord OR have a no dupes rule. I'm not sure where you play, but it's generally played here in Austin with no dupes and I've heard of one place banning firelord, but I don't play there.

E. People have interest in the new figures, but they have more interest in winning a LE.

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Thorgrin wrote:
"Also, you mention it makes me "soft" by playing with house rules. How so? Actually it forces me to play with people I normally wouldn't play with. So instead of playing with only 6 figures with 2 different figure types (i.e. exp wasp + rookie firelord), it makes me think of other possibilities, in essence playing the game with more options and more flexibility."

Where are you playing where this is the norm? Do the people you play with have no interest in any of the new figures? NO ONE that I play with uses FL or Wasp or Vulture anymore. I can't imagine how dull your games must be.

Do house rules make you soft? Absolutely.

-Rich

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
Why would a character that normally have a range of 0 now get a range of 10 with their power? Mind control does not get this option. Again, talking on just consistency here.

Outwit isn't the ability that defeats a figure. Outwit is a support ability. Imagine that BP is the command/intelligence piece on the board (same can be said for perplex). He is giving the orders/strategy to the rest of the team. BP spotted Juggernaut's weakness and relayed that info to Cyclops. Cyclops capitalized on the info and whacked Juggernaut for 4 clix instead of 2.

[Thorgrin]

ugh, I DID NOT SAY FIRELORD IS BROKEN!!!!!!!!!

1. Point taken.
2. Ponit taken.
3. Yes, we do have a lot of good figures come out... I am using IC as an example. You can easily put Thor, Super Skrull, whoever you want that does more damage. In that aspect, why even have invulnernabilty at all? Most figures can now damage without outwit then. In fact, Vet Doc Samson can do 7 points all by himself (with a heavy object), more if he has the +1 damage from the outdoors pack, more if he does doubles/and or critical hit.

Again, I would rather see consistency over anything else as well as a more balanced and fair way to play. I'll just concede everything to you, the people that want nothing to change and do everything status quo.

It's always easier to take the easy route, it's never easy to change the system or attempt to bring new ideas or ways to do things. I guess I'm just "soft" in that aspect. *shrug*

Originally posted by thjimmy
DCFan has made a couple of good points on the last 2 pages:

1) My car is running well, so I won't replace the engine

2) You are missing out on a lot by only using IC figs.

A counter to point 1 was made - "You upgrade from cassette to CD, making your car better."
- True, but you didn't fix the cassette. You replaced it. You took out Vulture and put in Doombot.

Point 2 - beautiful. "Firelord is broken" was chanted very loudly for a long time. CT made the chanting lessen. Xplosion has created so much diversity that no figure is "broken."

We have hundreds of excellent figures and combinations to use that are devestating if you aren't ready for them. multiple Perplexers, Probability Control, Enhancement, etc. all change the balance of the game.

The only way to "fix" all of these powers is to eliminate them.

If you want a completely balanced, always fair game of strategy, try Chess.

When you want to add powers and dice and comics to Chess, play Heroclix.

[Thorgrin]

In that case then, logically you should be outwitting someone's armor/defense whatever. So even if they are knocked into Toughness then, they should still not shrug any damage. After all, why would the weakness be gone? Simply hitting that weakness won't make it go away. The logic in this instance is flawed. In fact, I would say the weakness would even grow with repeated attacks, so the fact that you lose invulnerability/imperviousness and toughness should not even be a factor and that figure should not have either ability until your next turn.

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Outwit isn't the ability that defeats a figure. Outwit is a support ability. Imagine that BP is the command/intelligence piece on the board (same can be said for perplex). He is giving the orders/strategy to the rest of the team. BP spotted Juggernaut's weakness and relayed that info to Cyclops. Cyclops capitalized on the info and whacked Juggernaut for 4 clix instead of 2.

[darius_dax1]

But it does weaken the character. After Juggy is hit his dial grows weaker and weaker and he eventually loses some of his powers. I don't have Juggernaut in front of me right now but the logic is not flawed. It was the opening in Juggernaut's defense that BP spotted and Cyclops exploited. Juggernaut IS weakened by the experience. The logic is sound.

[Thorgrin]

Irrelevant that Juggernaut is weakened, the "flaw" in his armor, his "weakness" is still there (on your turn, of course), so why does he now get the benefit of shrugging one damage? The logic is still flawed. The weakness doesn't just magically disappear.

One last thing to mull over before heading out of this thread that's taken up too much time as is. You're assuming that everyone has every figure to play with. Nope, it's not fair. Yep, it's not a fair world we live in. Guess uber player wins again with no want/need for good competition. Ah well, FUN games at the house are always nicer. Who really wants an amped up vet (or less) LE person.

[Unasoda]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
[B]A. House rules do not make myself or other people "soft". What it does is makes use people that aren't the popular/fad figure to play.

B. Most house rules are for FRIENDLY play. I.E. TO HAVE FUN

C. In tournaments, it's a good way to BREAK THE MONOTONY

D. This is the norm in a lot of places, hence a lot of places have either outright banned Firelord OR have a no dupes rule. I'm not sure where you play, but it's generally played here in Austin with no dupes and I've heard of one place banning firelord, but I don't play there.



Reread my original post: it makes you soft if you intend to play in a major convention tournament, where there are no house rules.

We break the monotony in our tournaments by coming up with scenarios. In fact, it's almost become a contest in our tournaments to see which Envoy can make the wackiest/most fun scenario or story. We've even played tournaments devoted entirely to plot points (from the adventure packs), which by and large render this entire argument null and void if you play that way.

My venue tried to ban duplicates, but I think that particular house rule may be on the way out the door, since not many people seem to like it that much.

If you're playing your friend, in FRIENDLY PLAY, new and different rules are great. What you were suggesting seemed to be an addition of a new rule to the game, or drastically changing one of the rules. If you want to do that with your pals, groovy. Go right ahead. But in tournament play, such rules SHOULD BE unnecessary.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
Irrelevant that Juggernaut is weakened, the "flaw" in his armor, his "weakness" is still there (on your turn, of course), so why does he now get the benefit of shrugging one damage? The logic is still flawed. The weakness doesn't just magically disappear.

One last thing to mull over before heading out of this thread that's taken up too much time as is. You're assuming that everyone has every figure to play with. Nope, it's not fair. Yep, it's not a fair world we live in. Guess uber player wins again with no want/need for good competition. Ah well, FUN games at the house are always nicer. Who really wants an amped up vet (or less) LE person.

It isn't irrelevant. You are thinking way too linear and inside the box for a game based on comic books. Stop trying to be such a stats monger and use the imagination. Why can he shrug off that one point now? He can't if BP is going to use outwit again. And if BP doesn't use outwit again and Juggy shrugs off the one damage, Juggy is one tough customer. Either way the damage to Juggy has been done because BP outsmarted him. It did weaken Juggy. That chink is still in his armor and totally exploitable.

[DCFan#1]

Thorgrin wrote:
"In tournaments, it's a good way to BREAK THE MONOTONY"

What are you trying to say here? Is this game "dull" with the regular rules? I certainly don't think so! If you want to "break the monotony", then try different figures or build an all Hydra team. Changing the rules willy-nilly isn't the answer, house rules or not.

-Rich

[darius_dax1]

As far as fair is concerned. In a collectible, expandable game there will always be someone that can afford more than someone else. That is just a fact. The opportunity is there to buy and build whatever team you want. That cannot be fixed so why even bring it up?

[CosmicBeing]

Hey I'm the one that started this thread and I just checked on it now. It's nice that I can start such vicious deabates about things but...

My original point seems to have been lost along the way so I'll just clarify.

First off I'm a firm believer that if someone is annoying you with a power, give that character a fastball special in the eye!
I personally think that outwit is not "broken" I just like to do my way better. My friends and I do that with a lot of rules so it's not anything big for us.

The reason I started this thread is that I personally don't like people complaining unless they also offer at least some sort of fix. I offered my way of doing outwit so that maybe some of those complainers would fancy it and stop crowding this nice website with the same old whines. I never said that the nice people at Wizkids should ever change any of their rules. I merely suggested that some people might do it differently in the comfort of their own boards.

I personally love this game and don't think anyone should complain about it.....but since my original theme seems to be not important compared to this debate then I guess I'll curb my two cents for now.

[Monkeegoth]

If you want a completely balanced, always fair game of strategy, try Chess.


Never! The Queen in Chess is *so* broken! I mean, what was the game designer thinking, making ONE piece that can move ANY NUMBER of spaces on the board, in ANY DIRECTION!

Why would I even use my Knights when the Queen is on the board? So, my friends and I had an idea - we made it so that when we play each other, the Queen can only move three spaces at a time, and we enjoy the games so much more now!

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Outwit isn't the ability that defeats a figure. Outwit is a support ability. Imagine that BP is the command/intelligence piece on the board (same can be said for perplex). He is giving the orders/strategy to the rest of the team. BP spotted Juggernaut's weakness and relayed that info to Cyclops. Cyclops capitalized on the info and whacked Juggernaut for 4 clix instead of 2.


The above situation couldnt legally take place. Outwit cant be used with RCE in any way shape or form, by either the attacker, or on the figure being attacked with the power. So, BP shows Cyke Juggs weakness, and Cyke drills him for 2, not 4. Not really a gamebreaker there In my opinion.

I think outwit is Ok, because they made it so you cant utterly devastate someone with it by using it with RCE or CCE. I Had someone try that with A nightwing/bane combo trying to outwit INV with Nightwing, then try to use CCE with Bane for 5 damage. Doesnt work that way.

I think outwit is fine, the only annoyance I have with it is its abundance in the DC realm, where it sometimes seems that half of the figure list has outwit on their dial at some point.

As far as Marvel goes, theres only a few that have it, and only one I know of that starts with it, that being BP. Others like SPidey and Mr Fantastic get it later on in the dial where you have to employ a bit of strategy to use it, or just have it as a bonus to a good figure.

Outwit isnt that big of a problem for me, I just usually try to damage the outwitter past his powers. Very rarely do I ever use it on a team because as I said before BP is the only one that starts with it for reasonable cost, and Im not a BP fan, so he doesnt make the cut. I play mostly Marvel exclusively, so the DC situation doesnt really affect me until someone wants to play a mixed game, which I really hate.

[Thorgrin]

Actually, it DOES work. First off, you can outwit at ANY time. You can not use any powers in conjunction with RCE at the same time you are using RCE. I.E. You outwit someone's power (whatever it may be, Mastermind, Super Senses, whatever). That is a separate action. Now Cyke DOES hit for 4 points as that is another action.

As far as tournaments, I've been my share of them and actually, it's far easier to win a tournament with a status quo and doing the same old thing than it is to do it with a "fun" team, or whatever. Seriously, it is. Yes, I can play an all Hydra team, I'm not going to win. Not by a long shot. Sorry, if I go to tournaments, it's to win. Period. I play "fun" games at the house with buddies, thus not as cut throat, not as BORING as just the every day, ho-hum team. No house rules, no scenarios, or whatever else you want to call it is boring and soft. It doesn't expand the mind at all and in a tournament setting, it's really easy to predict the team that will win about 80% of the time. Usuall it'll be the flyer/RCE guys or the stealth/bcf guys. Every so often, you'll see the weird team win, but it's rare.

Ah well. It's a pipe dream anyway, Wizkids won't change anything and I don't expect them to.

Originally posted by The Stinger
The above situation couldnt legally take place. Outwit cant be used with RCE in any way shape or form, by either the attacker, or on the figure being attacked with the power. So, BP shows Cyke Juggs weakness, and Cyke drills him for 2, not 4. Not really a gamebreaker there In my opinion.

I think outwit is Ok, because they made it so you cant utterly devastate someone with it by using it with RCE or CCE. I Had someone try that with A nightwing/bane combo trying to outwit INV with Nightwing, then try to use CCE with Bane for 5 damage. Doesnt work that way.

I think outwit is fine, the only annoyance I have with it is its abundance in the DC realm, where it sometimes seems that half of the figure list has outwit on their dial at some point.

As far as Marvel goes, theres only a few that have it, and only one I know of that starts with it, that being BP. Others like SPidey and Mr Fantastic get it later on in the dial where you have to employ a bit of strategy to use it, or just have it as a bonus to a good figure.

Outwit isnt that big of a problem for me, I just usually try to damage the outwitter past his powers. Very rarely do I ever use it on a team because as I said before BP is the only one that starts with it for reasonable cost, and Im not a BP fan, so he doesnt make the cut. I play mostly Marvel exclusively, so the DC situation doesnt really affect me until someone wants to play a mixed game, which I really hate.

[WarUlt]

Juggs is not totally useless, he's a powerhouse, a little overcosted, but not everyone has BP on their team nowadays. Outwit doesn't mean "your blades suddenly disappeared" or "aaaa where'd my armor go?". BP could tell Colossus "Hey go for Juggs neck while his back's turned" or something like that. Or "watch out spiderman here comes spiral, throw up a web shield or tangle her swords with your webbing". Obviously you still play the game and have fun, so just cool it.

[DCFan#1]

Check again Stinger. You can have BP outwit someones Invul. and then someone else can RCE them. The rule in place now is the SAME FIGURE can't use both, which really can't happen anyway (unless it's the Superman Enemy team ability).

-Rich

[batfink]

I think outwit is fine, the only annoyance I have with it is its abundance in the DC realm, where it sometimes seems that half of the figure list has outwit on their dial at some point.

HT is heavy with outwit, just like Xplosion is heavy with perplex. Once Cosmic Justice comes out, this will change.

One compromise is to limit what Outwit can do. Instead of Outwit eliminating Inv or Imp. entirely, have it downgrade it to
toughness.

[Capt Crunch]

I think the big problem is that there really is oly 1 cheap outwitter in Marvel and he ends up on almost every team, and that is not good for the game....

Anyway, because of the nature of outwit as described, I think you should not be able to use it on the same fig and power on consecutive turns. Representing the fact that a character eventualy finds a way to counter the advantage outwit represents.

Like I said, my only real gripe is that if everyone has rookie black panther on his team, then the variety aspect is lacking and it might as well be chess with two folks playing the same optimized team/formula...

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by CosmicBeing
I've seen a lot of complaints about Outwit. The prime example is Black Panter making Juggernaut a little wuss.

It's not Black Panther or Outwit that makes Juggernaut a little wuss.

It is the player that doesn't know how to use him effectively.

[Spinebreaker]

If Black Panther is making Juggernaut a little wuss, then purchase a 6 point thug...

Stand him inbetween the two.

I think everyone has had games where Outwit has been a 'problem' But the have to be 10 squares away...

Even WITH stealth there are taxies, cheap characters to get in the way, barrier, Charge, Superman Team ability...

Much like the maligned WarmthLord, Outwit can be used amazingly effectively, but is NOT broken.

[dcjoker]

I am so sick and tired of hearing people whine about outwit. "Wa, wa, wa, they outwitted Juggernaught's impervious, wa, wa, wa." Juggernaught is way to tough for his point value, especially if you are fighting him with an all DC team. Outwit is the only chance you stand against him, and you want to make it harder to use? It works out just like it does in the comics. They never "beat" Juggernaught, they "outwit" him. If you want to whine about something, whine about pieces with insanely high values that suck all of the challenge and strategy right out of the game. Outwit is fine the way it is.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by dcjoker
I am so sick and tired of hearing people whine about outwit. "Wa, wa, wa, they outwitted Juggernaught's impervious, wa, wa, wa." Juggernaught is way to tough for his point value, especially if you are fighting him with an all DC team. Outwit is the only chance you stand against him, and you want to make it harder to use? It works out just like it does in the comics. They never "beat" Juggernaught, they "outwit" him. If you want to whine about something, whine about pieces with insanely high values that suck all of the challenge and strategy right out of the game. Outwit is fine the way it is.

ok FIRST OF ALL this post WASN'T a whine, he gave people a house rule he uses for outwit and said that he thought it made the games more interesting. Second your post is just as much of a whine as everyone else's you are whineing about the people's freedom to voice their opinion, you are being a hypocritical Jerk in this post. Third, if you are so sick of people discuss outwit and other stuff then there is a VERY simple solution and requires no effort, just stop reading them, walk away, and get a life.

[dcjoker]

Insaniac99- You're on the Heroclix message board on a Friday night too, so don't be telling people about getting a life. I didn't whine about anyone's freedom of speech, I'm just frustrated with people whining about outwit. Maybe this guy wasn't whining, but enough people have. You need to relax. This is a heroclix mesage board. You're yelling at me about freedom of speech like you're Larry freaking Flynt.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by dcjoker
Insaniac99- You're on the Heroclix message board on a Friday night too, so don't be telling people about getting a life. I didn't whine about anyone's freedom of speech, I'm just frustrated with people whining about outwit. Maybe this guy wasn't whining, but enough people have. You need to relax. This is a heroclix mesage board. You're yelling at me about freedom of speech like you're Larry freaking Flynt.

First, my dates happen on Saturdays, you get the whole day in, Friday is my gaming night which ended only an hour or two ago.

Second, I think saying "If you want to whine about something, whine about pieces with insanely high values that suck all of the challenge and strategy right out of the game." is essentially whining about freedom of speech because you are saying they can't whine about outwit but that they can whine about Mandarin's 12 range or Firelord's brokenness or anything else except outwit, it is like telling someone they can't shoot a guy with a gun but they can gut them with a knife if they want, if not being hypocritical it is setting double standards.

Third, I am calm, some things get on my nerves, namely when people try to say what others can and can't talk (or whine) about, but everyone has pet peeves, I am no different, I just ignore most of my pet peeves, this one just happens to be ruining a discussion thread I have been following.

Fourth, yes it IS a Heroclix message board, where people can discuss a game they like, and how they believe it could be made better (after all nothing in this universe is perfect) with other who share their passion.

[dcjoker]

When did I say that they couldn't whine about outwit? All I said was that I don't think they should. People can complain about what ever they want, but I'm allowed to argue with them. By you're logic, you are blocking my freedom of speech by telling me what complaints I'm not allowed to complain about. BUt I won't let you silence me, Insaniac99. No matter what oppression you bring against me, I will still proclaim it from the rooftops: I LOVE OUTWIT! IT IS A FAIR AND USEFULL POWER! JUGGERNAUGHT'S DEFENSE AND ATTACK VALUES ARE WAY TOO HIGH! Nothing you can do will ever shut me up. I will stand firm in my beliefs! Struggle as you might, you will NEVER take from me my God-given rights, which brave men and women have been giving their lives for the past two hundred years to protect!

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by dcjoker
When did I say that they couldn't whine about outwit? All I said was that I don't think they should. People can complain about what ever they want, but I'm allowed to argue with them. By you're logic, you are blocking my freedom of speech by telling me what complaints I'm not allowed to complain about. BUt I won't let you silence me, Insaniac99. No matter what oppression you bring against me, I will still proclaim it from the rooftops: I LOVE OUTWIT! IT IS A FAIR AND USEFULL POWER! JUGGERNAUGHT'S DEFENSE AND ATTACK VALUES ARE WAY TOO HIGH! Nothing you can do will ever shut me up. I will stand firm in my beliefs! Struggle as you might, you will NEVER take from me my God-given rights, which brave men and women have been giving their lives for the past two hundred years to protect!

actually i wasn't saying you couldn't whine, i was pointing out the hypocritical aspects of it and saying they have jsut as much right to complain as you do, i never said you have to stop whineing, i merely said that if it annoys you so much to see people complain about outwit and say how it should be changed then you could easily just not go into the thread that has a title so obviously focused on outwit.

i suppose a better example would have been saying that you don't like people killing others with guns but that you think it is perfectly fine for them to gut someoen with a knife as it would have been a more acurate representation of what you were doing.

honestly, juggernaut sucks, there are more people who do what he does for cheaper and do it better, the only reason to use him is the themed brotherhood teams, there are many people with AVs and DVs higher than his, outwit is not the only way to beat him, i really wonder how you would deal with some of t6he other characters if Jugy gives you so much trouble...

to tell you the truth i like outwit as it is, but i am always open to house rules that might make our games even more interesting. you just had to say that you can't stand the outwit whiners and are sick and tired of them and then proceded to mock them, if i wasn't so mature i am sure i might have responded with something like "Wa, wa, wa, that big doodoo head is complaining abbut outwit, wa, wa, wa." much like you did in your first post, like i said earlier it is a game, if people want to talk about house rules and things they like or don't like let them, if it bothers you so much, why don't you stay away from posts talking about it?

That said i am off to bed, I will read your ignorant posts at a later time.

[shadowmaster19]

Was playing a 300 point game with some buddies of mine today and I really think you guys put way to much thought into this.

Hell, I was only using :
exp firelord -81 points
vet chrimson dinimo -134 points
exp doombot -33 points
rookie vulture -15 points
rookie black panthor - 27 points
exp medic - 10 points

total = 300 points

was actually some really fast games, my budies where using some tough figs that I thoght I would never win against, like vet Doctor doom and vet thor and even vet ironman.

was quite funny on the outcome tho. heal the dmg that any of them did to me and then move my black panthor up and talk Iron man and Doctor Doom to give me the suits. Then have firelord and crimson dinimo walk up and do 5dmg the first shot and 4 dmg (toughness usually after first shot) for the 2nd. Unfortunately for them, most if not all high priced figs only have 9 clicks of life. Thus they both died. But hey, Thor was even easier, Black panthor just held his hamer for a while as Firelord and Crimson both fireballed his butt. But hey, some figs can life through this, Hulk for instance would be on his last click which is reagon I believe. Too bad for him that firelord and crimson can push...........and as for super####, I mean super man.......well........I'm not even gona go there. Hey, outwit aint broken )
Black panthor all the time in the comic books probably stole ppls suits, or flew into space and found jubs gem, he probably has a hole suitcase full of criptonite hidden somewhere too. He's probably got some cave somewhere like batman too where he can make all these gismos to turn gods into pansies and then use it on them by fireing it at them from on top of a building or from the sky or something. I always thought psychic blast was for tho, I could be wrong tho.

To bad they never made outwit like perplex, only in effect as long as the targets dial didn't change, so if you outwited invul and hit him and he still had it he would get it back since he is now aware of the threat. or just left it as psychic blast since that's pretty much what it is anyways.

In all honesty tho, ranting aside. There are many things in this game and in many others that could be considered broken and unfair. The trick is to know of them and how to combat them in order to make you a stronger player. After all, if there's anything that outwit has taught us is that even the strongest oppenents have a weekness somewhere........

[darius_dax1]

After all, if there's anything that outwit has taught us is that even the strongest oppenents have a weekness somewhere........


Good point.

[dcjoker]

Yeah! Tell that to Insaniac 99 before he takes away our feedojm of speech!

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by dcjoker
Yeah! Tell that to Insaniac 99 before he takes away our feedojm of speech!


:cheeky:

Please. Noone is taking away anything. Drop this petty #### and add something constructive to the thread.

I like the point made that BP was the only cheap figure with outwit in Marvel If there had been a few other different figures of low cost, people wouldnt be making such a big deal about BP.

Im not sure why they even gave Rookie BP the BCF ability because 90% of the games Ive ever seen him in, he's dead before he gets to use it. Heh.

[Spiderhulk]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but last I heard outwit had a maximum of ten squares,so Mandarin's range wouldn't matter,just like someone with two range can outwit ten squares.Unless there's been an ammendment in FAQ.Please let me know.The same with Pheonix with twelve range and telekinesis with a maximum of ten,

[davenappy]

Originally posted by The Stinger
:cheeky:

I like the point made that BP was the only cheap figure with outwit in Marvel If there had been a few other different figures of low cost, people wouldnt be making such a big deal about BP.

Im not sure why they even gave Rookie BP the BCF ability because 90% of the games Ive ever seen him in, he's dead before he gets to use it. Heh.

I agree with the folks who think that R BP is on way too many teams. Why? Because he's on way too many of MY OWN teams. He's always there, unless the Outwit slot has been occupied by another, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to have multiple outwitters too. At least Marvel should have another option. Who is the cheapest DC fig with a starting click of outwit? R Deathstroke, and he's 40 points, which is more than E BP, who has a click of Outwit and BCF to boot! I think DC needs a cheap outwitter too.

My suggestions for future cheap outwit characters:
Hank Pym, scientist
Night Thrasher
Oracle
Brainiac 5

Anyone else?

[Thorgrin]

Haven't been keeping up with this, so here's some ideas on Outwit.

1. Limit it by range (already mentioned)
2. Limit it to the figure actually outwitting (i.e. if Black Panther outwits Thor's Invulnerability, then only Black Panther can damage Thor without having to take 2 points off of his damage)
3. Reduces defense powers by one. I.E. Toughness is outwitted as normal. Invulnerability still shrugs one point of damage. Super Senses still dodges on a 6 (not 5-6).

Just some ideas.

A lot of people argue that you can just go up and hit the outwitter or outwit their outwit. If you're playing good figures, everything that was mentioned (taxis, barriers, etc) go for the same figure as well. For example. I have Super Skrull taxi black panther. There are two targets in front. One is a rookie Vulture and the other is vet she-hulk. Super Skrull targets Vulture severly damaging him. Black Panther outwits She-Hulk. Now moves away using Avengers Power. Annihilus then does a running shot carrying Ultron. Hits She-Hulk, she takes 3 damage. Ultron then does an EE and hits both She-Hulk and Vulture doing 1 point to She-Hulk and 2 to Vulture (thus KOing person). In the meanwhile, Black Panther is now back under safety AND out of even long range because he has a range of 10 AND moved back AFTER doing his thing...

That's not even using Barrier to protect him further OR putting figures in front oh him. Yes, you can put a Rookie Thug in front of She-Hulk, but there are OTHER angles, not just one. You're thinking too linear and not looking at the big picture if you're thinking that'll just remedy the situation.

Also, most of you want to just pick on Juggernaut. He's not the only one that gets hammered. Everyone gets affected. Let's be honest here. If you had an option of outwitting a Vet Puppet Master's Mind Control (and taking the chance he'll hit and actually make one of your figures receive an action) or outwitting vet Dr. Doom's mastermind and could do 5 points of damage to either (say you have a Vet She-Hulk with an object, Vet Crimson Dynamo, whoever), which would you outwit? Most people (not all) would go for Dr. Doom. Why? A. He's more of a threat (bigger numbers for AV, damage, EE potential, etc) B. His point value is higher.

Not that I think it's broken. Not going to say that at all, but I do believe it could use a little refining. Personally I like the first option and we've played it a few times and it makes Mandarin a little more powerful, but overall, it makes some of the lesser played figures more desirable too. Vet Mr. Fantastic has a range of 8, for example. Vet Cap America has a range of 6. So does Unique Spider-Man (IC).