Taxi rules change - it's baaaack! and being tested

[Keleko]

Okay, today at my regular Hero Clix tournament venue, the Judge/venue employee said that WizKids is actually doing playtesting of a change to the taxiing rules. Yes, it seems that motion is actually being made in at least trying different rulings. He's spoken directly with WizKids representatives for his information and gotten information on changes they're testing. I'm putting it in this forum because it was a playtested based on actual communications with WizKids. We played two rounds with one rules change. Here's how it worked out.

Rules change: If a figure is carried by another flying figure, then the carried figure may not act that turn. TK still works the same, though.

Results after 2 rounds of 10 people: It makes turtling THE way to play.

We played 400 points of all Marvel with no duplicates of named characters. One player spent 200 points on R-Invisible Girl, V-Bullseye, U-Cyclops, E-Black Panther, some con artists and paramedics, and maybe some other stuff I don't recall. He also had Thanos and R-Vulture to round out his 400 pts. With that little group he could sit on roof, give the 10 ranged folks up to a 21 defense in hindering. This creates a nice little 10 square kill zone. Add barrier to the mix, and anyone facing him is basically in deep trouble, even more than they are without a rules change. It becomes very difficult to get anyone into close combat against that team because you can't fly them in and have them attack. If barrier is used, then you can't take out the barrier and then move in a close combat attacker without TK. It also means that TK, Charge, Running Shot and Hypersonic Speed become near-required for every team to be able to move and attack.

So, as a group of 10 that played 2 games each, we decided that this change doesn't work well. It becomes more difficult to get in to attack, especially against turtle teams. Turtling is already powerful enough as it is, and making it better is worse for the game.

After some discussion, we have decided to try an addition to the above change. Still not action allowed that turn for the carried figure. However, we decided to allow all figures to move 1/2 distance and attack (ranged or close combat). Those with charge and running shot get to move their FULL distance and attack. What we're hoping is that it makes the game faster paced and encourage more aggressive playing instead of defensive turtling.

Yes, that does mean that V-Iron Man can move 12 and then attack 10 squares away. However, he can move 14+ now and attack (free carry with Wasp, then running shot for 6), so it isn't really a big deal. With TK he could go 22, but he can go 16 now that way. So, we'll try it out and see how it goes.

So, according to my usual venue rep, who talks to WizKids reps regularly and gives them feedback, changes are being tried. Nothing is decided yet. Maybe there won't even be a change. But, the issue isn't dead.

[drgnoftyr]

i like things the way they are now ...

[shin-goji]

Yeah, pretty much, same here. Otherwise we'll just see a proliferation of Mandroid Armor.

[drgnoftyr]

glad to see 1 person agrees with me

[Keleko]

I'm not sure I'm interested in a change, either. However, I don't mind trying out alternatives. Maybe some other way will be better. I'm all for whatever makes the game work more like the comics.

[drgnoftyr]

the only thing i want to mess with is super strength but not if it hurts the game meaning unbalances it that taxi rule looks to unbalance things a little

[drgnoftyr]

super strength comment was for fastball special

[Nickel97]

We've played this way for a few weeks now. it makes Stealth even more wrong, especially with the increase in ranged stealth attackers. Vet Psylocke and Vet Taskmaster are pretty much wrong in this format.

You're right about turtling. This format makes Charge/RS/HS too powerful. There's no incentive whatsoever to play a non charging brick.

I tried playing TK (which is a solid power anyways) but the one way trip factor is harsh, plus the fact that you can push out of TK. TK is nice to throw someone into battle or get them up on a roof (though you've got to make sure you get all of your LOS right otherwise you still have to move the TKed fig into position). But it's really hard to get people back out.

My opinion is that the only change that ought to be considered is to make any figure that would normally have to make a break-away roll, make that break-away roll if they are going to be pulled out of combat by a flyer w/o phasing.

Running crying like a baby to a paramedic takes more fun out of the game then having wasp airlift bane in for 5 damage.

[beezly]

i think you shouldn't be able to taxi and then shoot, but taxing and moving and taxing and CC makes more sense. I mean, can't you imagine a man bat throwing a bane into batman more than oyu can imagine a vulture carrying a bulseye and then him taking a shot (considering that this is faced paced in real life)

[darius_dax1]

I hope that they don't make that change. If they do anything I think the break-away roll would be best with a +1 modifier due to the aid of a flier. Who would get the action counter then?

[Brainiac 16]

A) For the breakaway, you could make the guy that's based need to role breakaway, but not count it as an action in that specfic case.

B) Super-strength needs some work.

C) This rule change sounds like it would slow down the game. I'm not a fan of that.

[hair10]

Originally posted by Keleko
It makes turtling THE way to play.

Oh goody... Just how we all want to play!

Gawd... I hope they don't change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Horhiro]

A few house rules I am planning on playtesting go somewhat like this.

No flying character can taxi another flyer . I mean have you ever seen Iron man carring around Thor? Why would he? The basic premise of "Taxi" ing is to carry someone who cannot fly! Possible subrule, flyer also cannot taxi someone who has hypersonic speed. Why would Supes carry around the Flash?

Soaring Characters do not block LOF

Soaring Characters with ranged attacks can fire on grounded/elevated figures as they(grounded/elevated) currrenty fire on Soaring figures.

I'll let you know how these work out.

[drgnoftyr]

to take flash to the otherside of grand canyon
would Supes carry around the Flash?

:p

[Horhiro]

Heck no, he would get to the other side in a "Flash" :p

[drgnoftyr]

nightcrawler would beat him there bamph

[Horhiro]

Yeah, but that stinky smell of brimstone...yuck:surprised

[hoshoko]

Are there any other playtesters that we confirm this? I thought this was all confidential. I hope they don't change the rules. That would be the biggest rule change to date, and would create some confusion. In addition I think it would slow the game down.

[drgnoftyr]

i think this is some house rule gone wild

[JConstantine]

I've been waiting for something like this to be done since my first tournament where every winning team looked the same.

I love the concept of HeroClix, but the play balance is severely skewed.

What percentage of your figures would you actually use in a tournament?

Unfortunately, this is probably just a rumor...

[drgnoftyr]

hey shin goji pull out that secret stash of rules ya have and straighten this matter out man!!!!:cheeky: :cheeky: :p :p :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[ludd_gang]

Originally posted by Keleko
After some discussion, we have decided to try an addition to the above change. Still not action allowed that turn for the carried figure. However, we decided to allow all figures to move 1/2 distance and attack (ranged or close combat). Those with charge and running shot get to move their FULL distance and attack. What we're hoping is that it makes the game faster paced and encourage more aggressive playing instead of defensive turtling.

Yes, that does mean that V-Iron Man can move 12 and then attack 10 squares away. However, he can move 14+ now and attack (free carry with Wasp, then running shot for 6), so it isn't really a big deal. With TK he could go 22, but he can go 16 now that way. So, we'll try it out and see how it goes.



This is one of the best solutions, IMO. Its encourages fighting and captures the flavor of comic battles. It still lets a flying buddy whisk away an injured comrade from the clutches of death- but many other benefits of taxiing are kind of obliterated. Would it make flying figs overcosted???

I am confident if there is a rule change that WK will make a good call. It wouldn't kill the game- look at MTG's 6th Ed rules changes. The game really became much better for the switch.

[shin-goji]

Neh! Snoogins! I don't like it! ####, doesn't a game take long enough as it is :)

[Keleko]

I don't know if any of the other players will post or not. I told the judge/venue employee that I was posting, and it was fine with him. He didn't mention any confidential reasons not to. He usually speaks to Wizkids as a venue and seller of product rather than as a judge. They listen and talk to him more that way.


This is one of the best solutions, IMO. Its encourages fighting and captures the flavor of comic battles. It still lets a flying buddy whisk away an injured comrade from the clutches of death- but many other benefits of taxiing are kind of obliterated. Would it make flying figs overcosted???

I don't think it would make them overcosted. They can still carry people, and they still get the ability to go over terrain. R-Vulture isn't any better than an thug without the flying, and at 15 points he's still darn cheap for a flier.

[capfan]

I've always been in favor of every figure getting 1/2 move and attack or full move and attack if they have the appropriate powers. This makes every figure able to be an offensive weapon on their own. Otherwise, you run up to your enemy, they smack you, you rest, they push and smack you again. The way things are now, if you don't use a taxi, you've lost! This would make people play more aggressive and be more comic like. I HATE Wasp as a character, but she is on every team I build due to the taxi rules. If every character becomes able to move and attack, Wasp gets retired!

[The Blue Flame]

Yeah, the half move would probably make more sense for restrictions, but getting rid of attacking while taxing altogether seems to drastic. Ya, at first I thought it was cheese, but after a while I got used to it. It isn't completely cheese, there are many ways to stop it, yet it still has it's advantages. I like it, it's a big part that makes it different and unique from the other Wizkids games; Mechwarrior, Mage Knight, etc.:)

[Answerman]

Holy,
that idea of mines made it pretty far...
Of course I've never been given credit for it but if ya'll look back at the topic that started it all:
http://hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=244122#post244122

you'll see that my post was the one that suggested the change. Post #15...
I don't want to sound like a glory hog, but not once has any body given me credit for the idea (that I've noticed anyways), and I simply want it known that when I say it was my idea, I'm not full of it.....
I've definatly let things lke this slide one too often and even if its a bad idea it was my idea....
Okay shutting up know...
soundin whiney....:noid: :ermm: :o

[beezly]

i like that idea, it makes it a lot like MK:Dungeons, which is fun to play specifically for this reason.

[CCTelander]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
I hope that they don't make that change. If they do anything I think the break-away roll would be best with a +1 modifier due to the aid of a flier. Who would get the action counter then?

This I could live with, although I'd prefer no change to taxiing at all. I don't think it's necessary or desirable.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by CCTelander
This I could live with, although I'd prefer no change to taxiing at all. I don't think it's necessary or desirable. I would just like to restate that I really do not see a problem with the current taxi rules.

I also do want to remind all of you that even if this story is true (I'm not insinuating it isn't) that the tests may prove that the fixes are no better than the (percieved) problem.

[Answerman]

well I've played the game this way(everybody gets charge& running shot etc.) a few times myself, and frankly I didn't find that there was much difference at all other than the game went a bit faster.
I also like the break away at +1 idea, tyhat seems more fair, and sensable (sp?)..
really I just wanna see the game come off more like an RPG, that way it can be incorporated as one more easily...
and really who doesn't want to see Heroclix evolve into more of a game where you buy what you want for figs?
Thats to say figs that come in packs like Kingpin and his minions, Avengers set 1, 2, 3 , and so forth?
Ah ah?

[skeevo666]

Flyers not being able to taxi other flyers sounds o.k. to me (kinda like a Sentinel can't capture a Sinestro :) )


As far as the breakaway +1:

would you still apply the bonus if the person the flier was attempting to carry had Plasticity? (Thus making it automatically successfull?)


We need to be aware of how changing one rule can change other rules too . . .

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by skeevo666
Flyers not being able to taxi other flyers sounds o.k. to me (kinda like a Sentinel can't capture a Sinestro :) )


As far as the breakaway +1:

would you still apply the bonus if the person the flier was attempting to carry had Plasticity? (Thus making it automatically successfull?)


We need to be aware of how changing one rule can change other rules too . . . This is why rules changes are a dangerous path to take. Thanks Skeevo666, I hadn't thought of that. But would it be okay for that to happen if this rule were to be in place? I would say sure. There are not many characters with plasticity in the comics as is. Plastic Man, Reed Richards, Elongated Man, The Metal Men, Jimmy Olsen as Elastilad.

[Darkskaven]

With my friends, we already play with some restraining rules about flyers, since the first time we have tried Heroclix. We prefer that the figurine carried by a flyer cannot do anything (except Outwit, Perplex and the like) until his next turn. The game is quite slower but is more fair and flyers aren't an absolute necessity for a team (and don't represent always near half the team members). Try to beat a team with a lot of flyers without anyone in the current rules (except maybe some very particular teams) and you'll see what I mean (a quick example : you have a VET Bullseye and a VET Shield agent, your opponent has a VET Bullseye and a ROO Vulture, guess whose Bullseye will shoot first and probably hit with his 11 AV ?).

I don't play in tournaments and thus can play very fun teams, often without any flyer. I'm not a huge comics fanatic, but I prefer when a game is more versatile and when the players don't always play the same characters just 'cos they are flyers and give a tremendous advantage in the game.

For the rules, it's the same thing except some differences : I agree that in this way RS/Charge/HS are more powerful, but nothing which can provoque a game-breaking (not as the number of flyers in each team can be).
In the other hand, the flyers aren't a waste for many reasons : they can carry others figs (two figs move for only one action point, and a slow figurine move freely at the speed of the flyer), the flyer can move over hindering (and sometimes blocking) terrain, a flyer can drawback a figurine who is in B2B with an opponent....

More : the BF power is no longer a flaw but a real power (I like Azs reviews but it's quite boring to read that every time a figurine is good it's when it can be taxied and that a figurine with BF is a waste.... I believe that was not the goal of WK when they made this power which cost points to be a flaw and not an advantage :( Nothing wrong with you, Azs !). A figurine with BF can't be carried, but it's not such limitating in this way of playing and the immunity to MC is quite useful. A character like Juggernaut who move for free is a real danger in this kind of game.

In conclusion, I think that the game could become more pleasant with some rules adjustements, without any total changes of the rules. But for me, current rules or new ones (if these don't change everything in the game) don't prevent me to play this game that I love, so GO WIZKIDS ! You've done a great job and I believe in you to do the better for the future of the game, leaving it as it is or not.

[darius_dax1]

If every figure has charge and running shot to start, and every figure that already had those powers can now move full distance, wouldn't that make hypersonic speed devalued quite a bit?

We would now have to also ammend/totally re-write this power.

[drgnoftyr]

id say so

[T_Darksoul]

Originally posted by Horhiro
A few house rules I am planning on playtesting go somewhat like this.

No flying character can taxi another flyer . I mean have you ever seen Iron man carring around Thor? Why would he? The basic premise of "Taxi" ing is to carry someone who cannot fly! Possible subrule, flyer also cannot taxi someone who has hypersonic speed. Why would Supes carry around the Flash?

Soaring Characters do not block LOF

Soaring Characters with ranged attacks can fire on grounded/elevated figures as they(grounded/elevated) currrenty fire on Soaring figures.

I'll let you know how these work out.

Just for a little heads up.

If you allow Soaring figs to attack back then you will make all figs with 0 range USELESS.

You will be able to field a team of all flyers on an outdoor map and start in Soaring mode. Now NO fig with a 0 range will be able to attack back.

Yes, you can Outwit a figs ability to Soar but now you are requiring all team to have Outwit.

The game is balanced the way it is. It does not need to be changed.

[T_Darksoul]

Originally posted by Horhiro
A few house rules I am planning on playtesting go somewhat like this.

No flying character can taxi another flyer . I mean have you ever seen Iron man carring around Thor? Why would he? The basic premise of "Taxi" ing is to carry someone who cannot fly! Possible subrule, flyer also cannot taxi someone who has hypersonic speed. Why would Supes carry around the Flash?

Soaring Characters do not block LOF

Soaring Characters with ranged attacks can fire on grounded/elevated figures as they(grounded/elevated) currrenty fire on Soaring figures.

I'll let you know how these work out.

Just for a little heads up.

If you allow Soaring figs to attack back then you will make all figs with 0 range USELESS.

You will be able to field a team of all flyers on an outdoor map and start in Soaring mode. Now NO fig with a 0 range will be able to attack back.

Yes, you can Outwit a figs ability to Soar but now you are requiring all team to have Outwit.

The game is balanced the way it is. It does not need to be changed.

[T_Darksoul]

Sorry for the double post.

[drgnoftyr]

no prob but dont do it again..... just kidding:laugh:

[Answerman]

darius_dax1
Hypersonic speed doesn't loose its effectiveness at all, they can still be carried into battle like normal dropped off then do the potentially devastating hypersonic speed attack like normal, but more importantly they can attack then run away!
that will always make for a seriously usful power...
The guy who has to end his turn at the end of his movement then attack will always be at a diadvantage against the guy who can move 4 spaces forwards, attack, then move 10 spaces back, then go into soaring mode behind a building...
But who knows maybe extensive play testing will reveal that theres more thats effected than I thought...

[Wasteland]

I think if they are going to change the rules it should be the same except for 1 change: A flying character needs to move overtop of the figure it wishes to carry. Thus characters in combat couldn't be lifted out, without them breaking away first. Phasing wouldn't work for it, because they would have to turn phasing on, then move, thereby being unable to interact with their character. It's the way that my buddies and I have been playing with and it makes taxiing much more controllable and not nearly the "I come in hit you then pull away to heal" yo-yo effect.

Wasteland

[Gacy's Clown]

T_Darksoul, I was gonna post the same thing about the soaring.
That's the reason they made the rule the way it is.
But, I'm glad someone responded to it.
Thanks!

[Keleko]

I can see why Wizkids would want to change the rule. In a booster draft player that pulls no fliers is at a great disadvantage to one that pulls at least one flier. Also it pretty much requires you to put one or two fliers on a team in order for it to be competitive. Yes, it can still be an effictive team without them, but you can't deny that you are at a disadvantage without them.

Eliminating that disadvantage is the goal of changing the rules. Perhaps it can't be done at all. We won't know until we try various alternatives.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Answerman
darius_dax1
Hypersonic speed doesn't loose its effectiveness at all, they can still be carried into battle like normal dropped off then do the potentially devastating hypersonic speed attack like normal, but more importantly they can attack then run away!
that will always make for a seriously usful power...
The guy who has to end his turn at the end of his movement then attack will always be at a diadvantage against the guy who can move 4 spaces forwards, attack, then move 10 spaces back, then go into soaring mode behind a building...
But who knows maybe extensive play testing will reveal that theres more thats effected than I thought... It sure would lose it's effectiveness. Remember the other part of this rules change is that Taxied figures would be unable to attack in the round they are taxied. Also, there is a distinct disadvantage when the opponent of the HSS makes their move. If that opponent can move and attack then the HSS figure needs to reserve moremove ment to get away from the opponents figures. If a HSS figure has a move of 20 it could move up to 19 on a hand to hand opponent and still move back 1 and remain out of range of that figure. But if that figure can now move 1/2 his movement and attack the HSS figure is now less effective and vulnerable to a regular b2b attack than it was before.

[DCFan#1]

I'm going to agree with Darius here. When they are through playtesting this, they'll find it's no better than the original rule. Then why change it. I'm not concerned at all about this "potential" change.

-Rich

[Shadowgt]

The rules are better the way they are, games still can go relatively quick and everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage.

[Horhiro]

Originally posted by T_Darksoul
Just for a little heads up.

If you allow Soaring figs to attack back then you will make all figs with 0 range USELESS.

You will be able to field a team of all flyers on an outdoor map and start in Soaring mode. Now NO fig with a 0 range will be able to attack back.

Yes, you can Outwit a figs ability to Soar but now you are requiring all team to have Outwit.

The game is balanced the way it is. It does not need to be changed.

You bring up a valid point. Here is my counter point.

My head is already up! That's why I'm looking hard at the Soaring Character.

Allowing Soaring figs to attack grounded : Limits their downfire range by half just as current rules limit upward fire by half and is still blocked by blocking terrain; thus figs who can stay out of range, create blocking terrain (even with O range), move to put blocking terrain between them can foil the Soaring Character.

Yes, you can outwit (it's practically required now anyway don't you think?), you can throw objects with super strength, and who realistically fields a team of all non flyers with no ranged attacks?

The game is not balanced. It is fun, enjoyable and quite welcome, but balanced? Perhaps for those who play in tournaments (I don't) the game doesn't need to be changed.

But I think you missed the point of my original post. "House Rules", meaning rules to be used in my house with my friends/family to make the game "more" enjoyable.

We like to play scenerios (ie, not the last guy standing/flying).We play only teams/groups that actually make sense in the history of comics, we don't allow duplicate figures on our team or on our opponents (except for grunts such as thugs, shield agents, skrulls and such), and although I'm not in any way trying to make this exciting game more realistic, I'm trying to make it more in line with how I view comic battles.

If people think it's okay for cyclops to fire at Iron man while he's soaring and Shellhead can't return fire that's fine.....I don't. If people think it's okay for superman at soaring height to block LOF between batman and joker only 2 spaces away from each other that's fine....I don't. I won't be seeing any of these people at tourneys or at my house anyway.:)

[Gacy's Clown]

It's not about Cyclops firing at Iron Man and Iron Man not firing back. It's about anyone without a ranged attack, pretty much not being able to touch a Soarer. Play against an experienced player using OWAW Supes in a 300 pt. game and you'll see exactly how overpower he can be. House rules are fine, but there's no need to suggest they be changed in normal games when it makes a current ruling waay too powerful:)
Just my .02

[shin-goji]

Yeah but OWAW Superman is a single figure. He doesn't define the game. Anyone who fields all characters with no range IS asking for an uphill battle.

[Gacy's Clown]

No doubt about that. Perhaps a poor example, but the reality is that if you could attack ground figures while in soaring mode, noone would ever use ground figures for the most part because they'd just run around and get pinged to death from above. Not in every case, but most.

[Taxeon]

Time for my two sense, as I am sure you all have been dying to hear.

I don't think flying should determine the ability to carry,

Green lantern Corp OK
Super Strength OK
Phasing OK

These all make sense, I can see hulk picking up a teammate and jumping them to the top of a building. Kitty pride and nightcrawler rootinely phase through walls taking teammates with them.

But flying? wasp can't carry squat.
And unless you have phasing fliers should not be carried there is not realistic reason for it unless you are flying through space (Green lantern often flies flying team mates to other planets so they don't suffocate) and I have not yet seen an outer space map.

[Keleko]

Phoenix can carry people with her TK. She could carry the whole X-team with her. Jean Grey has done that, too. Invisible Woman has carried lots of people around. Iceman carries people with him. Storm has used her winds to carry people. Human Torch has unflamed his arms and carried people. None of these have the above super powers, but there are examples in the comics of them carrying people.

What would have been best is a separate indicator for "can carry someone" instead of making it linked to flying.

However, one possibly neat aspect of linking carrying to powers is that you can then outwit a power and thus remove that character's ability to carry someone. That would be a very useful tactical move to make.

Or, instead of linking it to a power, or even changing the rules around it, would be simply to allow outwit to affect the ability to carry like you can outwit soaring. If fact, link it directly to soaring. If that is outwitted, then so is carrying. Then it become useful to outwit soaring on an indoor map. I wonder how that would work out in test play.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Taxeon
Time for my two sense, as I am sure you all have been dying to hear.

I don't think flying should determine the ability to carry,

Green lantern Corp OK
Super Strength OK
Phasing OK

These all make sense, I can see hulk picking up a teammate and jumping them to the top of a building. Kitty pride and nightcrawler rootinely phase through walls taking teammates with them.

But flying? wasp can't carry squat.
And unless you have phasing fliers should not be carried there is not realistic reason for it unless you are flying through space (Green lantern often flies flying team mates to other planets so they don't suffocate) and I have not yet seen an outer space map. This is a game based on the comics. It is not just like the comics. Treat Hero Clix as a parllel universe where situations occur differently than comic books. It's kind of like Twisted Toyfare Theater from Toyfare, it isn't like the comics but it is still fun. X-men Evolution---not like the comics or the movie that is not like the comics or the Ultimate X-men that is not like.....etc.

[drgnoftyr]

no matter how many times you drive that point darius they will not get it ... although i do ....

[Keleko]

I get it. That doesn't mean Wizkids is going to stop trying alternatives. Someone there doesn't like the rule as it is now, and so they're working on changing it. That doesn't mean it will change, but other possibilities are definitely being explored.

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by JConstantine
I've been waiting for something like this to be done since my first tournament where every winning team looked the same.

I love the concept of HeroClix, but the play balance is severely skewed.

What percentage of your figures would you actually use in a tournament?

Unfortunately, this is probably just a rumor...

I am hoping that you re talking about Marvel Heroclix which there are Firelords, generic perplexers and broken figures.

Also if you really wants to play a fair game. No dupes! It will solve some problems like someone use the cheesey teams such as "three rookie firelords with three wasps attacks" or ten generic perplexs (con artists) with jay garrick".

I am playing DC only, because I can see that those people who develop DC are being more cautious to avoid other broken figures like Firelord, and others by learned the mistakes that Marvel HC developers had made.

I think that Heroclix in general (both of Marvel and DC) doesnt need any rule changes but just add the rule that mentions no dupes.

[Taxeon]

I like no dupes at least wher the same experience level is concerned. I don't think it needs to go as far as saying non-of the same character regardless of exp level as some might.:cross-eye

[Keleko]

No dupes is fine for build-to-order teams, but in booster drafts you often don't have a choice when making a 200pt team. You play with what you get then.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by sierralegend


I think that Heroclix in general (both of Marvel and DC) doesnt need any rule changes but just add the rule that mentions no dupes. I would like to agree with you here but this would throw a wrench into the unique/le cost formula. You can and should if it is to your benefit field dupes. You cannot however field duplicate uniques or LEs.

[SoRetarded]

WizKids has had a hard enough time writing rules that make sense as they are/were worded. Before they go around trying to "fix" rules that aren't broken, maybe they should make sure the FAQ's match each other, and that all the rules are actually clearly spelled out.

I really don't think taxi's / flying needs fixing. If they want to alter it or rethink it, instead of limiting the power, they should expand other powers like Super Strength. I think it would be cool if they EXPANDED the list of who could carry whom, but I disagree that they need to trim it down. If you want faster games, let people with Super Strength carry / throw figures a-la the "fastball special." Make all figures weigh the same for the sake of simplicity and let chars with Super Strength chuck them as if they weighed between a heavy and a light object. We'll never see this though, because it would only expand the "Why can char X carry/throw char Y" threads. "If the Hulk can throw Blob 5 squares, how come he can't throw Wasp 80 squares?" I won't try to argue that this will not have reprocussions. I won't say I have thought of them and how they would effect cost, but it is definately something that will ADD to the speed of the game, not detract from it.

I also disagree with the banning dupes idea (for reasons already stated). In a sealed booster tourny it would really suck if you couldn't play some of your figures just because you got a bad pull. If they want to make this a rule it would have to not be in effect for sealed tournaments. Either that, or they need to make two sets of official rules, one for sealed box play and one for all other types of play. Do we REALLY want them to do that? I have a hard enough time remembering everything that is in the two (very, VERY seperate) FAQ's. I don't want to see specialized rules start to come into effect. Plus, (as was already pointed out) part of the whole point of Uniques and LE's was to make it so that you couldn't play dupes of them and I'm pretty sure their cost reflects that. Uniques and LE's are often too CHEAP for what you would otherwise get IF you could field more then one of them at a time.

[bobk815]

STOP WHINNING !!

If you don't like the game buy a different one.

Monopoly, chess something.

[sierralegend]

Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most.
Ozzy.

hey, i love that quote and I think it is scary ....

[Doctor Strange]

I like things the way they are!

If you take out taxis, then TK will become overused.. etc.. there will always be a superior method of moving and the ony real way perfect balance will ever happen is if EVERY character but constrictor is banned. Even then, people will complain about how broken incapicitate is.

Player one: He incapacitated me, it's like I couldn't even do anything for a turn. it's SO BROKEN!

[bobk815]

BOO !


Just checkin:classic:

[Ben Grimm]

Im getting into this thread way too late, but the only thing i wanted some clarification on was something that Keleko said in the opening post...he said something about a 21 defense?!? How is that even possible? Sure you have R Invisible Woman who can share her defense with all adjacent friendlies and you have some con artists around, but even if they do perplex her defense up (which im not sure even constitutes as a combat value to be perplexed) it all goes away at the end of your turn. Thus, the con artists perplex Invisible Woman's defense up, you perform your actions, the perplexed values go back to normal when your turn ends, and your opponent starts his turn with your defense returned to the normal 18.

[Taxeon]

Well, I don't know about 21 but 20 is certainly possible. Some characters have energy shield on top of their 18 defense gained from invisible girl.

[Taxeon]

Well, here is the only way I know of reaching a 21 defense. Some characters have energy shield on top of their 18 defense gained from invisible girl. That character can also be standing in hindering terrain 18 + 2 + 1 = 21

Not a fun character to shoot at.

[drgnoftyr]

21 is putting them in hindering terrain plus what taxeon said

[Taxeon]

oops sorry about the double post

[drgnoftyr]

posted same time:laugh: :cool:

[drgnoftyr]

two people same thought at same time kinda funny

[Ben Grimm]

gotcha...thanks guys. That's an interesting strategy to try out; i cant imagine having a character on my team with an 11 attack and still needing a 10 to hit someone. That's TOUGH!!!

[Keleko]

Indeed, that's how you get to 21 defense. That seems to be the highest a defense any figure can ever get in Hero Clix.

[insight]

The only change I would consider with flying is this:

Make the ability to carry someone a superpower. Carrying is as powerful, mechanics wise, as most powers. If it were attached to a superpower, then Wasp couldn't carry, but Angel could (as he often did). This could also allow characters like the Hulk, or Spidey to carry for a few clix, which would be cool, because they often did. This could also be noted as a change in the foot/wing designation on the dial.

This would only help with new figs coming out, but I think it is the best long term solution.

[Keleko]

That's one idea of that I thought would have been the best way to handle carrying. Too bad they didn't do it before.

[Blog]

I have played a few 'test' games changing taxis simply by extending the limitations on Ranged Combat Expert & Close Combat Expert. Basically, a figure that was carried cannot use RCE or CCE in the same turn.

This changed the game in subtle ways that everyone involved thought worked out for the best. Characters with high natural damage values were slightly more useful, but not overly so. Taxis were still the best way to be mobile, but lower point figs had to wait a turn to really turn the damage on.

Try it out and/or think it over. Me and mine found it a good alteration.

-Blog

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by insight
The only change I would consider with flying is this:

Make the ability to carry someone a superpower. Carrying is as powerful, mechanics wise, as most powers. If it were attached to a superpower, then Wasp couldn't carry, but Angel could (as he often did). This could also allow characters like the Hulk, or Spidey to carry for a few clix, which would be cool, because they often did. This could also be noted as a change in the foot/wing designation on the dial.

This would only help with new figs coming out, but I think it is the best long term solution. You may be close to something. If a rule change were needed...I think that FLYING should be a superpower. This would make it subject to outwit. Now taxies could be outwitted as well as making single figure basing with Firelord more damaging because he could not use his flying and RCE (no longer able to shoot RCE B2B) or he could have it outwitted and the same effect could happen.

[Keleko]

It could be made subject to outwit now, just like soaring is subject to it, like I mentioned earlier. It doesn't have to be a power, since soaring isn't a power, either.

[darius_dax1]

But flying cannot be outwitted currently, only soaring can be outwitted.

[Keleko]

But that could be the rules change - allow outwit to work against flying and not just soaring. I've never seen soaring outwitted in a game, myself. It just doesn't come up very often. Outwitting flying, though, would be very interesting.

[darius_dax1]

I agree and I am usaully against extreme changes, I do not think this to be an extreme change because one would still have to declare it and it would only work for as many outwitters that you had on your team. It adds a level to a power without making a drastic change.

[Spinebreaker]

JConstantine

>>>What percentage of your figures would you actually use in a tournament?<<<

But a change like this would simply change the figures. and in 1 months time it would be just the same situation as now, but with different figures.

>>>Unfortunately, this is probably just a rumor...<<<

Unfortunately??? This BETTER be a rumour. Otherwise Clix will INSTANTLY become almost unplayable. Stealth becomes incredible, TK becomes MASSIVELY over used, EVERY team has a 'charge' character and a 'running shot' character...

EVERYONE will turtle, and the game will become even more based around ranged combat.

You have a problem with seeing the same figs over and over??? It WILL become 300% worse if this change is made.

Capfan wrote :
>>>Otherwise, you run up to your enemy, they smack you, you rest, they push and smack you again. <<<

That's a good 40% of the tactics of the game Incapacitate, pushing timing. Too much of a change will make the game even more luck based than it is already.

>>>if you don't use a taxi, you've lost!<<<

And by your system, whoever goes first wins, where's the difference???

Basically if you change the taxi rules, about 8 powers become either REALLY good for the points (Charge, Running shot, Hypersonic) or become redundant.

If you change the attacking system (Giving everyone running shot or charge, effectively.) Then that affects everything as well..

I'mnot happy with unbalancing EVERYTHING else just because 3 people have a problem with the taxi rule.

Soaring characters being able to shoot grounded characters...

Wasp could single handedly eliminate Wolvie, Sabretooth, Wolfsbane, and many other grounded figures. without taking ANY damage herself.

NO-ONE would use grounded figures any more... what a great change!

[Taxeon]

I think the best solution may be another symbol on the dial that designates which characters can carry. I don't care about the taxi ability I just want it to be more realistic. Taxi is fine I just don't think every flier should be allowed to carry and every ground guy be unable.

Also Fliers should not be able to carry fliers since when is that necessary.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Taxeon
I think the best solution may be another symbol on the dial that designates which characters can carry. This is supposed to be a simple game with an easy to understand set of rules. Adding another stat on the base will just help to complicate things. I don't care about the taxi ability I just want it to be more realistic. Realistic like getting bit by a radioactive spider and all of a sudden being able to climb walls? Taxi is fine I just don't think every flier should be allowed to carry and every ground guy be unable.

Also Fliers should not be able to carry fliers since when is that necessary. When you play a game called Hero Clix. It is a game, not a comic book.

[Taxeon]

True but it is based on a comic book. I did not think I had to justify the term "Realistic" but since some folks don't comprehend.

I meant realistic in that it could be more like the comic books.

Have you seen the dial on a Mech in Mech warrior. I don't think one more symbol would be anywhere near as complicated as that.

[zapdos]

Dosen't any one play zombies!!!?

[darius_dax1]

But if you leave it as is there will be no further complications. The worst is that you would have to deal with the things the way they are and the game would not get any more complicated (less fun) to play.

[rocksitter]

The game is based on comic books
thats why they have hulk spiderman
yellowjacket why would you want to use the
comic heros names but not have the game
represent comics.
Dont let hulk juggernaut
abomination and other 1 ton guys be
picked up and carried by someone who
cant lift that much it makes a whole lot
more sense that way..Maybe SS is the
way but then again angel and iron man
(I know but he dont get it tell later) can taxi.
Maybe only lower cost figs than the taxi
could be carried..
Iam not sure what but I think somthing has to
be done I also dont think it would ruin the game
because I play with house rules that do not
let non SS taxies carrie others but this still
has faults so I am goin to try the lower point
total to see if it works better


the rocksitter whatj

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by rocksitter
The game is based on comic books
thats why they have hulk spiderman
yellowjacket why would you want to use the
comic heros names but not have the game
represent comics.Right, based on, not exactly duplicating. The X-men cartoon and X-men: Evolution and the X-men movies are based on the X-men comic book. They do not ape the comic book because of flow, simplification, and playability. Those items, just like this game, had to sacrifice some continuity for the better of the whole project. The mechanics and physics of a game are vastly different than that of a comic book or other story.
Dont let hulk juggernaut
abomination and other 1 ton guys be
picked up and carried by someone who
cant lift that much it makes a whole lot
more sense that way..Maybe SS is the
way but then again angel and iron man
(I know but he dont get it tell later) can taxi.This would be too limiting. It makes less sense than leaving the rules alone for playability issues.
Maybe only lower cost figs than the taxi
could be carried..So now rookie Shadowcat (28 points) can't carry Unique Wasp (44 points).
Iam not sure what but I think somthing has to
be done If you are not sure then don't try to mess with a game that works and is fun to play. I also dont think it would ruin the game
because I play with house rules that do not
let non SS taxies carrie others but this still
has faults I am not willing to let those faults invade my game. so I am goin to try the lower point
total to see if it works betterAnd we would do this to all other pieces already in the hands of the players how?


the rocksitter whatj

[Keleko]

The intent (as I understand it) of changing taxi rules is to make taxis less necessary. Right now a team without them is at an automatic disadvantage to one that has them. So, how would you go about making a taxiless team more viable and fun to play?

Perfect example: Freedom Force consisted of no fliers - Mystique, Blob, Pyro, Spiral, Destiny, Avalanche (the figures that exist in Hero Clix). This is a real comic book team. But, it lacks fliers to move them around in Hero Clix. Would you think this team stands much of a chance without turtling up behind barriers? What can we do to Hero Clix to make this real comic book team work well?

I thought Hero Clix was about comic book battles. What's wrong with trying to make it more like its source?

[cscottk]

I don't like the fact that you need a flyer on your team to suceed, but I do not think that rule needs to be changed. If its is indeed WK, then I am afraid. There are other minor tweaks that are more important than that one.

Also, why is WK only talking to that one judge? I fail to believe it.

[Keleko]

He finds that they talk to him more as a venue and seller than as a judge, since he doesn't present himself as a judge when calling Wizkids. It is possible that representing a store enables him to contact WK employees that are less inclined to talk to judges. After all, I expect they would want to hear feedback about what makes their product sell better. That is the job of a sales representative, after all. He may not be the only one they're talking to, either. I only personally know 2 judges.

[rocksitter]

Lets see based on that means like or resemblig
taking from the comics it is suppose to be like
the comics so no I dont want 1 ton figs taxied by
figs that cant even lift that much .

Thats not even close I understand the game cant be
just like the comics but at the same time it should try to come
as close has it can get and the taxi is not even close..
So stop triyn to tell everyone that MARVEL HEROCLIX
should not be like what it is triyn to represent comic books
thats why its MARVEL & DC .

the rocksitter whatj

[capfan]

Keleko its funny you mentioned Freedom Force because I recently wanted to play them in a tournament where every character had to be on the same team. I've been interested ever since they fought all the Avengers at the same time in one of the annuals. However, there was no way to make the team work without any taxi. If each character was able to move half speed and then attack, this could be a playable team.

[Ashlar38]

One idea that we are going to try is to add this rule:

A Taxi'd character cannot take a MOVE action for the remainder of the turn, nor can a Taxi'd character be taxied twice by a flyer in a turn. (2nd move by TK OK).

This allows a pointcost penalty for those that really want to have 2 movement methods for their 'passenger', stops an additional Charge or Running Shot movement, and yet allows CC or Ranged Combat...

What are your opinions?

[darius_dax1]

There is nothing wrong with what you want to do to the rules at home, nor is there anything wrong with playing a themed team. I think that Freedom Force may be a better turtle type team than a quick attack team. Remember that thet can all move for free so that is a great advantage. I think that in playtesting you will find that your house rules will really start to hurt certain figures. Keep a record of the teams yu and your groups play ove the couerse of a month and see if anything has really changed or if the figures that ued to see play now do not see play. There is a ripple effect that happens when you make one small change without considering the circumstances.

Hero Clix comes pretty darn close to 'comic book reality'. The things that do not match up perfectly are done for GAME PLAY BALANCE. Games work within a certain set of physics and cannot copy everything that the game is trying to mimic or the game would not be playable.

[GreenLanturn88]

kinda off topic but how often do you see someone with swords or claws block another players claws? i perpose that b/c/f can make a block roll by ether matchinng or besting the oppoents bcf roll.. anyone?

[darius_dax1]

The defensive value of the piece plaus the randomness of the attack roll and damge roll (in the case of BCF) are supposed to portray this.

[Keleko]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
I think that in playtesting you will find that your house rules will really start to hurt certain figures. Keep a record of the teams yu and your groups play ove the couerse of a month and see if anything has really changed or if the figures that ued to see play now do not see play. There is a ripple effect that happens when you make one small change without considering the circumstances.


Figures without ranged attacks are already hurt by the current rules. They require another figure to get them into combat. Without one they get eaten up from ranged attackers before they can get into position. However, in the comics, Hulk and Juggernaut don't seem to have problems going after their opponents without someone to carry them into battle, though. No one ever carries them into a fight. They don't move up to an opponent and stand there to get hit before they attack, either.

Hero Clix comes pretty darn close to 'comic book reality'. The things that do not match up perfectly are done for GAME PLAY BALANCE. Games work within a certain set of physics and cannot copy everything that the game is trying to mimic or the game would not be playable.

The game is skewed a bit towards ranged combat right now. Taxis are the way around that limitation to get close combat figures into the fight. I'd like to see an alternative way to get them into the fight without requiring someone to carry them like they're helpless infants. 1/2 move and attack for everyone seems to have some potential as a solution. It even has some precedent in another WK game.

[shin-goji]

I have plaed a 400 point Freedom Force team and patience is more of an issue. patience and BARRIER!

[Keleko]

What do you do if your opponent chooses not to come to you? If you both of you hide behind barriers, then it makes for a very slow game. That's how fights go in the comics, after all.

I think all Wizkids wants is for the game to be more like the medium it represents. Taxis don't represent the medium very well. They are also a source of abuse (duplicate Wasp & Firelord combos). There's gotta be something better.

[Keleko]

One thing that is common in every RPG and in 40k (the only other miniatures game I've played) is the ability to charge into an opponent for close combat. Usually the charging figure gets some kind of bonus to the attack for doing this. This is why I suggested allowing every figure 1/2 movement and attack.

However, moving and performing a ranged attack is more difficult to learn to do. Perhaps it should only be limited to close combat attacks instead. Also, perhaps instead of allowing figures with Charge a full move and attack, instead give them a +1 to their Attack, since they are more experienced with moving in to hit. This is more in-line with existing games, so it has precedence for already being balanced.

Couple that with "if a figure is carried, it can't act that turn" change to taxiing.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Keleko
I'd like to see an alternative way to get them into the fight without requiring someone to carry them like they're helpless infants. Telekenisis, Hyper Sonic Speed, Charge, perplexed range. To protect: Barrier, block LOF with a soaring figure, Stealth. Ranged figures will always have an upper hand over close combat fighters. How would you like to try and charge me to do close combat if I had a gun (not saying I want to shoot you just as a combat example). Who has the advantage?

[Keleko]

Oh, I know they will always have the advantage. However, close combat has been hurt worse than usual. In Hero Clix I can't run up and try to hit you. I have to run up, wait for you to shoot me (or hit me first if you don't have a gun), then I can try to hit you - unless I have Charge. Everyone should be able to run up and attempt to hit all in one motion. It's easy enough to do that it should be allowed for all figures to attempt. However, some figures are better than others at it, so those with Charge should get a bonus when doing it.

Look at other Wizkids games. In Mechwarrior all mechs can charge. All vehicles can ram. MK Dungeons has move & attack for all figures. Why shouldn't Hero Clix? It makes the grounded figures more viable on their own without needing fliers. It shouldn't require TK, Hypersonic, and so on to make them useful. You end up limiting what figures can be picked, and that's not a good thing.

Before saying any change is bad, options should be tried. Maybe a change makes the game better. Maybe it won't. There's no way to know until different ways are tried. The perception is that the current way is broken, so a change is desirable.

[darius_dax1]

Strategy option:
Wait to approach until 1 or 2 action counters are assigned to the target in question. At the very least there would be the trade off of doing 1 damage to your opponent for the push. Also when in b2b the ranger cannot make a ranged attack unless they are also a flier.

Other options:
It would be interesting to see Wizkids make vehicles that could be used in this fashion. I would love to see a Batmobile or Batcycle, Hawkeye's old hover cycle, The Black Knight's winged horse, etc... It may not totally solve your problem but it could make it more fun to play.

[Keleko]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
Strategy option:
Wait to approach until 1 or 2 action counters are assigned to the target in question. At the very least there would be the trade off of doing 1 damage to your opponent for the push. Also when in b2b the ranger cannot make a ranged attack unless they are also a flier.


That isn't quite the same. Using Hercules as an example, he has to move up and take a token to get b2b. So, he either has to push and take damage to attack or wait. This still gives the advantage to the figure he approached.


Other options:
It would be interesting to see Wizkids make vehicles that could be used in this fashion. I would love to see a Batmobile or Batcycle, Hawkeye's old hover cycle, The Black Knight's winged horse, etc... It may not totally solve your problem but it could make it more fun to play.

This would be nice to see. They'd be interesting as big figure types. Quinjet, Fantasticar, Blackbird, Captain America's motorcycle, Ghost Rider on his motorcycle, Blue Beetle in his ship... There are lots of vehicles that could be made and sold.

[schicantek]

Jeez, reading some of these posts makes me think the sugesstion was to throw the works in the garbage. Since this and other topics seem to come up here from time to time, people shouldn't claim everything is perfect the way it is. There is the old saying, I forget from where, that a sapling will bend with hurricane and survive, but the rigid tree will snap in two. I don't know what change I'd make now, but a change should be made. If it helps, I liked the putting a carry ability and the base, like movement type. Carring shouldn't be dependent on flight, and flight should mean ability to carry. Hmm, all my using carry makes me want to watch Ace Ventura.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Keleko
That isn't quite the same. Using Hercules as an example, he has to move up and take a token to get b2b. So, he either has to push and take damage to attack or wait. This still gives the advantage to the figure he approached.
But what you are saying is that you want to give the advantage to the attacker instead of the defender. Attacking is a more risky venture than defense.


This would be nice to see. They'd be interesting as big figure types. Quinjet, Fantasticar, Blackbird, Captain America's motorcycle, Ghost Rider on his motorcycle, Blue Beetle in his ship... There are lots of vehicles that could be made and sold. It is a wish I have. I hope something can be done with this.

[SpakSpang]

Two rules I would like to see is

1) Super Strength being used to throw figures into walls and such. You can make the rule something like. If you throw a figure Roll to see if attack worked. Then either Roll to see how far you throw them OR how much damage you can do is how far you can throw them. Then a throw does 1 Click damage Plus whatever damage for hitting a character or Wall.

This could break up cheap flyer combos by throwing the characters away from their support. It could also be used to throw opponents into a trap/lions den of weaker characters ready to fight. And is much more like the comic than anything else.

2)I like the rule mentioned that you can do Close Combat if you are taxied in, but not Ranged. Many Close Combat fighters need that extra movement to attack, and the cost is that once you move your character to attack it now has to roll Break Away to escape. And moving your flyer that close in means you are putting to figures into harms way.

These rules will give Close Combat more usage and power, and force people to rethink there all range cheese teams.

[kevlear]

I don't see any problem with taxi's as they are now but if they had to change it I have a good solution:
The taxi carriing only gets 1\2 the move. 1\4 if charge or running shot.
Just an Idea.

[GroovyBoy]

Yeah, like you really wanna see yet another person's answer to the taxi problem, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

1) Fliers in B2B contact cannot make ranged attacks

2)If a figure in B2B contact with an opponent is being lifted away by a friendly flier, it must make a breakaway roll; if it succeeds, it can go with the flier, if it fails it cannot. Either way, it is not charged an action token, but the flier must begin then finish its movement

Not too bad I think

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by GroovyBoy
Yeah, like you really wanna see yet another person's answer to the taxi problem, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

1) Fliers in B2B contact cannot make ranged attacksThey can't if based by 2 or more opposing figures

2)If a figure in B2B contact with an opponent is being lifted away by a friendly flier, it must make a breakaway roll; if it succeeds, it can go with the flier, if it fails it cannot. Either way, it is not charged an action token, but the flier must begin then finish its movementMoving with no destination in mind is not a good decision to make. And what if I didn't want to move my full move in the first place?

Not too bad I think

[GroovyBoy]

Is that thing about fliers not being able to make ranged attacks if based by 2 opponents a new rule? I'm talking about the flying character making the ranged attack against a based opponent, not somebody farther away.

As for the second rule, the flier could move as much or as little as they want. If their desired passenger failed the breakaway roll, the flier could remain where they started, but said flier would still get an action token since the player stated a move action.

[Answerman]

I'll second your proposals GroovyBoy!

[ludd_gang]

Originally posted by GroovyBoy

1) Fliers in B2B contact cannot make ranged attacks

2)If a figure in B2B contact with an opponent is being lifted away by a friendly flier, it must make a breakaway roll; if it succeeds, it can go with the flier, if it fails it cannot. Either way, it is not charged an action token, but the flier must begin then finish its movement



1. Since a fig is "locked in" to combat against any BTB figs, I don't think this would really have much impact against any one but RCE figs. You probably aren't gonna EE a btb fig, and Pulse Wave is pretty limited anyway. Besides, this rule actually makes non-fliers more powerful against fliers- the only notable exceptions being a handful of RCE fliers like Storm, Iron Man and the Nameless One.

2. Too complicated, at least in the form presented. If this were implemented, it should be made into a flat breakaway roll for the flier. I do agree that this would reduce the power of "run-to-the-medic" strategies. It would also subtly increase the power of close combat figs.

[four_winds]

Originally posted by kevlear
I don't see any problem with taxi's as they are now but if they had to change it I have a good solution:
The taxi carriing only gets 1\2 the move. 1\4 if charge or running shot.
Just an Idea.

Beautiful idea if there needs to be a change, this is what I would vote for. However I also feel that there is nothing wrong with the games.Play scenarios if it will help you.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by GroovyBoy

As for the second rule, the flier could move as much or as little as they want. If their desired passenger failed the breakaway roll, the flier could remain where they started, but said flier would still get an action token since the player stated a move action. What Ludd Gang said...this is too complex and confusing. If I thought a change was needed I would say that OUTWIT could work against flying would be the best possible cure. This would keep both parties happy because it can be answered (if you thought there was a problem) and it would only slightly limit flight and taxies.

[rocksitter]

I think what the guy
said about making taxi ability on the base
is a great idea
but what about the figs from the
first 3 sets they would have
to make a list...



the rocksitter whatj

[darius_dax1]

That would be a bad idea. We are talking about keeping it simple. That would only serve to make things more complex.

[rocksitter]

We whos we..
How hard is it to put a mark on a base
to say that this fig can taxi ....

the rocksitter whatj

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by rocksitter
We whos we..


We is us (New to pronouns, are you?)


Originally posted by rocksitter
How hard is it to put a mark on a base
to say that this fig can taxi ....


Not hard at all (Going back to the 5 sets w/o it, that's another story)


Originally posted by rocksitter
but what about the figs from the
first 3 sets they would have
to make a list...


One of the selling points of this game is that it does away with consulting lists, charts & tables (I've got SFB when I want to do that :) )

If you need more "comics realism" there are many fine Super-RPG's out there awaiting you . . .

[Threadbare]

What's the deal with all the rules fascists screaming at anyone who thinks "hey, maybe things might be better if we took a look at this?" I mean, it seems to be a constant phenomenon, not based on validity of the proposal, just a knee-jerk. While darius-dax isn't one of those reflex guys, he does say "This is supposed to be a simple game with an easy to understand set of rules. Adding another stat on the base will just help to complicate things."

Well, I seem to think that it's becoming complicated because they tried to keep it simple. Maybe one of those yin-yang things. I don't know, man. I just am weirded out by people arguing that wizkids brought forth on this continent, a perfect system, dedicated to game balance and yadda yadda yadda. Sure, for the most part, things are good, but Wizkids isn't infallible. They can screw up, and they can hit it bang on. It's like government.

Actually, the only change I would really like to see is giving everyone 1/2 or 1/4 charge, and give the chargers some neat bonuses, maybe even the ability to countercharge or something. Also, I was thinking that maybe someone with BCF shouldn't be able to have knockback, and maybe someone with super-strength should either have greater chance for knockback or knockback distance doubled.

I was showing how Heroclix works to my girlfriend today, and from her foreign perspective, she agreed it was dumb that you have to run up next to someone before hitting them. We had blade and hercules around the corner from each other, and neither one wanted to move. Stalemates are fine tactical situations, but it doesn't really strike me as the stuff of a "fast and furious miniatures combat game." Superhero fights should be very agressive, not just from a comic-book realism perspective but from an aesthetics perspective, as well.

[Keleko]

The first question we have to answer, before considering any change, is, "Why does Wizkids want to change the rules on taxiing?" The answer is pretty much given below.

Originally posted by Threadbare
I was showing how Heroclix works to my girlfriend today, and from her foreign perspective, she agreed it was dumb that you have to run up next to someone before hitting them. We had blade and hercules around the corner from each other, and neither one wanted to move. Stalemates are fine tactical situations, but it doesn't really strike me as the stuff of a "fast and furious miniatures combat game." Superhero fights should be very agressive, not just from a comic-book realism perspective but from an aesthetics perspective, as well.

From what I understand of the reasoning, Wizkids wants to improve the ground pounder. They are at a serious disadvantage in the game right now. If they don't have someone to carry them into battle, then they are handicapped in their ability to get into the fight. Wizkids wants this game to be a fast and furious miniatures combat game. If you want to play without taxis (which should be a completely viable option) you are forced to play defensively. Playing defensively is not the intended way to play the game.

So, what should change to make it possible for a figure without charge/running shot/hypersonic speed and/or ranged attack to get into the middle of the fight? How can Hercules get into the thick of things on his own and not get pummeled along the way?

The only answer I see at the moment is the "all have 1/2 charge" option. Give those with the Charge power full movement or a +1 to attack or damage to compensate for paying for the power. Personally I kind of like the +1 to attack when charging, as it fits other rules systems in other miniatures games.

Maybe we don't even have to change taxiing as written with this. It just makes it easier to play without one.

[warden]

Yes, you have to let all characters move and fight in the same turn. Wizkids have already done this when they created Mage Knight Dungeon. This improved on standard Mage Knight by allowing any character to attack during his move at a cost of four movement points. This is simple enough and it works well for a game of heroic combat. If they could manage this for MKD while maintaining figure compatibility with MK then they can do the same for HeroClix.

Andrew

[weezer_10]

I really hope the taxi rules stay the same. The way it is now makes my bricks/bruisers a lot more effective in a game.

Like for my Exp Bane to get from one end to a particular opponent, it might take him three or four moves before he can lay a punch (if he doesn't get hit on the way). With a taxi, he can be flown over and make his attack in the same round.

One of my friends loves to taxi his Exp Firelord with an Exp or Vet Shadowcat so he can make his long ranged attack that way. Sure it's annoying, but it's clever. I've often used Hawkman to give my OWaW Supes a 10 square boost before making a Hypersonic Speed attack, just so I can reach those who "turtle", as some call it.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the way taxis work now. It's fine the way it is.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST!! :p

[daedalus25]

Originally posted by weezer_10
I really hope the taxi rules stay the same. The way it is now makes my bricks/bruisers a lot more effective in a game.

Like for my Exp Bane to get from one end to a particular opponent, it might take him three or four moves before he can lay a punch (if he doesn't get hit on the way). With a taxi, he can be flown over and make his attack in the same round.

One of my friends loves to taxi his Exp Firelord with an Exp or Vet Shadowcat so he can make his long ranged attack that way. Sure it's annoying, but it's clever. I've often used Hawkman to give my OWaW Supes a 10 square boost before making a Hypersonic Speed attack, just so I can reach those who "turtle", as some call it.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the way taxis work now. It's fine the way it is.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST!! :p

You've just shown how broken taxis are in your little Bane paragraph. It takes him several moves before he can lay a punch, but with a taxi he can be flown over and make his attack the same round. This shows how NECESSARY taxis are, and why the rules need to be changed. Someone with a taxi has far too great an advantage over someone without one. And it does make a huge difference. My friend never used taxis for months and kept losing to me game after game, no matter what team I used. Recently I taught him how to use taxis to improve the effectiveness of his heavy hitters, and I've lost to him 4 games in a row. I actually need to play serious teams to stay competitive with him now.

[weezer_10]

Originally posted by daedalus25
You've just shown how broken taxis are in your little Bane paragraph...

...My friend never used taxis for months and kept losing to me game after game, no matter what team I used. Recently I taught him how to use taxis to improve the effectiveness of his heavy hitters, and I've lost to him 4 games in a row. I actually need to play serious teams to stay competitive with him now.
Okay, firstly, explain to me how taxis are broken? Having a taxi is an advantage as you have clearly stated (blue highlight) in your last few sentences talking about your friend.

You said you won your games because your friend didn't use taxis, you however did. And now that you've taught him how to use a taxi in his teams, he has started to win games. Now that he knows how to play, he's giving you more of a challenge now isn't he?

I'm curious, were taxis "broken" before you told him how to use them? Or did they start to "break" when you started losing? :p

[sdkid86]

Originally posted by Keleko
Rules change: If a figure is carried by another flying figure, then the carried figure may not act that turn. TK still works the same, though.

Is it just me or is this rule change an absolute waste of time b/c not only would it make the games so much slower but it will just cause their to be more abuse with TK'ing people, achieving absolutely nothing.

Personally I believe Wizkids should just leave the game the way it is b/c if people can't handle TAXi's (and by the way, everyone basically does it), then maybe those particular peolpe should either quit playing the game or maybe...here's a thought...devise a way to defeat these teams.

And lastly, I believe it is a generally consensus among Heroclix players that there doesn't need to be a rule against Taxi'ing figures b /c that would just be UBER LAME.

Also on a small side note about the 10 range barrier team and how to defeat it....well....try stealth with some help from the batman klan.

Just my rants and raves about unneeded rules,

Sdkid86

[Keleko]

They're broken in that they're required to play a challenging game. If you don't use them then you're at a great disadvantage if your opponent uses them. You're forced to play a slower, more defensive game on your side, which is not the intended way to play this game. Ideally a team with no fliers should be just as effective as one with fliers.

I'm kind of amused that your friend didn't figure out how to use taxis after watching you use them.

[CowboyBebop]

I believe that fliers should give an advantage, but not too much of one. Is it so hard for people to understand that taxi armies are almost indespenable with the current rules? The way the rules are now, if you take a taxi heavy army vs a no taxi army the outcome is greatly favoring the taxi army. This isn't brain surgery people. Make the ground-pounders more effective and fun to play without all the taxi's. If you don't believe it then try it yourself. Play 5 games. Fliers vs ground. How do you think this is going to turn out. If the taxi army loses then that is some major bad dice rolls on a galatic scale or the player is, in fact, an animal without basic reasoning skills. I'm not complaining or looking to get flamed, though I don't really care, I'm just stating facts.

[kevlear]

why dosen't everybody use taxies nearly equally. I think it's rediculus to make a team without any taxis and I think every team neads to have some. Maybe not one per grounded fig but some good ones that and be used for many. Every one should chose for themselves lose=no taxis, win many taxis(against no taxis). Even if they oficially change the taxi rule I will still use it in my "for fun" play always.

[Keleko]

The point is that you shouldn't need to have a taxi. It restricts the choices in what you play. In a booster draft game, you're automatically at a great disadvantage if you don't pull any fliers. It also hurts the figures with battle fury, an ability that costs points, since they can't be carried.

The rules as written favor those who use taxis. Wizkids wants to make the taxi less required to win and keep the game fast playing.

[rocksitter]

I see that we does not mean
everyone ..


Why do people keep bringing up turtalin
to justify the taxi rule...

If they do change people will only
pick flyers with the abilit to taxi.

it all depends how you play and why
I think its crazy to have teams with villains
and heroes together unless that really
happend but thats just me.
So when you build a team to win
not based on anythig the game is dumb.

The avengers starring the thug or teamin with
klaw ,baron zemo,blizzard so on so on......
kitty pride with anybody ..you know

the rocksitter whatj

[Keleko]

I don't mind the teams with heroes and villains together. They make interesting what-if scenarios.

However, I would like to see official campaign scenarios where you play more theme based teams, too. I think those would be more fun than the usual one-on-one seen at tournaments.

[darius_dax1]

There is a difference in real-time versus game-time. When you play RPGs and miniature games one of the things you should leaarn is that the time that passes in reality isn't the same amount of time that passes in the game. In one minute of real time you make your decisions and moves and any dice rolling that needs to be done. This takes a bit of time. In the game, only seconds have actually passed.

While it seems that there is a long pause in between Hercules moving into position and being able to attack it is actually only seconds or fractions of seconds that have passed. Think of it as a sort of stop-motion animation. You have to make all the movements and actions before you take the picture that will be part of the action scene.

That being said I would still like to say that attacking is more risky than defending. A defender has a fortified position and is able to counter strike any attackers more easily than the attacker attacking the defender. When the attacker attempts to strike the defender, he (the attacker) leaves himself open/vulnerable to a counter strike, much like in defense-based martial arts...use the attacker's momentum/energy against him/her.

[Taxeon]

Here is a simple fix for the Taxi problem.

Ban Firelord or add about 40-50 points to him.

Beyond that I can live with the Taxis as is. Two firelords on one team with their movement on top of their damage is just uncool.

I have learned how to defeat most teams even those with one Firelord but Firlelord with a twin or Human Torch Vet and losing gets pretty common.

The only reason I wanted any other changes such as requiring super strength or phasing or maybe an ability to carry symbol on the dial is because is would make it more like the comics, thus more true to form.

With Firelord out of the picture playability is just fine and good team builders will have just the right balance of taxis and ground pounders to stay competitive.

[darius_dax1]

I have to totally disagree with you on banning, unless of course you pay me top of guide value (plus shipping) for each and every Firelord I have in my collection (only 1 each R/E/V at present time) and I will send them to you and support your ban. This would also apply to any future Firelord's I may acquire in booster pack's. If it will be useless and I had to pay for it I want to be duly compensated.

[Keleko]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
While it seems that there is a long pause in between Hercules moving into position and being able to attack it is actually only seconds or fractions of seconds that have passed. Think of it as a sort of stop-motion animation. You have to make all the movements and actions before you take the picture that will be part of the action scene.


I'm not concerned with the actual time passed. All I want is for Hercules to move up and not get destroyed before he gets a chance to fight back. In other miniatures-based games you're able to move into close contact and attack in one move. A lot of them actually have charge as a full or double move, too. All I want is parity with other miniatures games. Wizkids has it in other games of theirs, so why wouldn't it fit with Hero Clix? The rules are pretty similar with their other clix games.


That being said I would still like to say that attacking is more risky than defending. A defender has a fortified position and is able to counter strike any attackers more easily than the attacker attacking the defender. When the attacker attempts to strike the defender, he (the attacker) leaves himself open/vulnerable to a counter strike, much like in defense-based martial arts...use the attacker's momentum/energy against him/her.

If both sides play defensive, though, it makes it a rather uneventful and slow game. Neither side is willing to attack the other because they would be too exposed. That's not the kind of game Wizkids wants Hero Clix to be. They want it to be fast paced and aggressive. The intention is to make the rules fit that approach to the game. Right now it is too difficult to be aggressive without taxis carrying your ground pounders. They want to change it so you aren't required to ferry characters around to get them into the fight.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't play defensively, of course. Wizkids just prefers that it not be overly advantageous if you do.

[Taxeon]

Collectible Games do it all the time. Although I personnally would rather them just increase his points 30-50 in an FAQ ruling would be fine.

[Keleko]

Please don't turn my thread into a Firelord is broken rant. Pretty please? :noid:

[Taxeon]

:p

Sorry, he is the only one who even justifies all these complaints about taxi'ing. Since otherwise Taxi'ing is just fine. I originally thought the whole reason for changing it was to make taxi'ing make more sense. But apparently most people appear to feel it is genuinely flawed... I don't see it though, this is why I digressed to the only explicable cause of these beliefs.

I will refrain:knockedou

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Taxeon
Collectible Games do it all the time. Although I personnally would rather them just increase his points 30-50 in an FAQ ruling would be fine. That is true, just ask the guy that bought my Magic the Gathering cards. So, if jumping off a cliff sans parahute, skis, or bungee cords were the latest rage...

[Tylk]

Firelord isn't the only complaint some of us have with taxis. The way it is now,unless I waste points on one of a few Tk'ers, guys like Jugs and Herc are useless unless they have a taxi. Worse if they have battlefury. These are the big guns, and yet unless your name is Bane, the only guys seeing real play via taxi, are BCF'ers and ranged guys. And while most big beatsticks have Inv, it is alot less 'big' than it was in earlier sets, thanks to all the perplex. By the time you get one of them B2B, they have taken a few clicks, and have an attack of 8 and only now do 2-3 clicks. This completely weakens these characters, and dont even get me started on Shadowcat who is now quite possibly the best taxi in the game thanks to phasing.
You win 9 times out of 10 with taxis, over a team without any, easy. Debate it all you wish, but I am sure many would agree. Taxi'ing should not be a 'MUST HAVE' and right now, it really is.
Again though, it isnt so much the taxi for me, as it is the complete waste of space the big guns CAN be that suffer from battlefury.

[Keleko]

It isn't really that taxing is flawed. It is more that taxiing is a crutch to get around a flaw in the game - getting the ground pounder into combat. Taxiing is the current method of doing it. The problem is that it becomes a required crutch. Finding a better way to get that ground pounder into the middle of things without getting killed before he gets there is the goal.

[darius_dax1]

Taxiing is done all the time in the comics (for those wanting comic-book-realism{snicker}). It is usually done to insert the less mobile fighters into the fray more quickly than they are able to do so on their own power. Usually what happens next is the flier that did the original taxiing moves on to engage another foe. Perhaps there are a lack of foes to keep fliers from contuinued taxiing. Tie up those taxies with opposing figures..problem solved (except for Shadowcat, outwit will also be needed).

[Tylk]

Tie up taxis...but it is usually the 1st hit from someone taxi'ing someone that is a crippling hit. So while I have my lumbering force trying to get to my opponent, I waste a few figs with high movement to tie up thier taxi's?....much,much easier said than done. Are they high point cost tie up figs or low? If they are low (a-la quicksilver), they are likely dead before my beat sticks even get there. If they are high point tie ups (a-la Plastic man, or maybe Sandman), I have barely any points left on my team for one of my beat sticks anyways, so it becomes a non-factor.

That whole thing someone said that MageKnight did, costing 4 move to attack in the same round has great potential. And then you just give some bonus to guys who already have charge (or running shot?).

[darius_dax1]

And then we will be back here arguing the abuse of those powers. Everybody now uses only those with charge and running shot after the taxi change. So you have not fixed a thing, only broken something else.

[Keleko]

Yes, it happens in the comics. It doesn't happen as often in the comics as it does in Hero Clix, though. From what I've seen in comics the fliers carry non-fliers to the fight and that's about as far as it goes. With the exception of a fastball special, they're not generally dropped right next to their opponent.

One flier definitely doesn't carry another, unless they're knocked out or wounded such that they can't fly anymore and need to be rescued. I don't know if that saying one flier can't carry another is a good change to be made, though. It would certainly cut down on the Firelord cheese, though.

That whole thing someone said that MageKnight did, costing 4 move to attack in the same round has great potential. And then you just give some bonus to guys who already have charge (or running shot?).

I think I mentioned something like it. I wouldn't use the 4 cost, though, because many figures in Hero Clix have 4 move at the start (Blob, anyone?) and get less than 4 later. 1/2 move and attack works fine. Give those with the Charge power a +1 to their attack (or maybe +1 to attack or damage, player choice?). Either that or give them the ability to move their full movement instead of 1/2.

[warden]

I trust you guys have seen X-Men 2. If not, stop wasting your time on HCRealms and go straight to the cinema. Most of the time, there's no taxiing in that movie. Not unless you count the X-Men's jet and Cyclops' auto. But there is one exception. A character who repeatedly carries other characters out of danger. But guess what, he can't do it in HeroClix and there's even a special rule change to make sure (characters can't carry while using Hypersonic). Tsk.

Andrew

[darius_dax1]

Andrew,

I agree with the X2 endorsement! It was awesome. I need to see it again right after I make the time to see LOTR: Two Towers.

[Keleko]

Actually, there was taxiing. Nightcrawler teleported people around more than once. Unfortunately he can't do that in Hero Clix. :grin: He does it a lot in the comics, too.

Hypersonic doesn't prevent you from being a taxi. You just can't carry and make a hypersonic attack at the same time.

[Taxeon]

That is what I have been saying in my ealier posts to this thread.

Ability not flying should determine carry ability.

Phasing (nightcrawler)
Hypersonic (Flash, nightcrawler)

Or just put a mark on the dial so do detemine the ability.

I don't think Hypersonic should be able to attack and carry but carry definately.

On another note. Where did Kitty learn to fly. she doesn't fly on TV but that doesn't mean much so who can fill me in on this

[Keleko]

She can "fly" in the comics. She walks on air while she's phasing.

[schicantek]

I agree that we don't want to slow this game down, but nothing should be a must have on your team, the way taxis are. Having superstrenght, phasing, or other abilities added to the taxi list would speed things up, and give more choices to those who are tired of having to choose a flier, for no other reason than to taxi. I find it funny that many people are claiming us this, or everyone that. Stop trying to speak for the entire world, and just give YOUR opinion. Everyone hates when people do that!;) ;)

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by schicantek
I agree that we don't want to slow this game down, but nothing should be a must have on your team, the way taxis are. Having superstrenght, phasing, or other abilities added to the taxi list would speed things up, and give more choices to those who are tired of having to choose a flier, for no other reason than to taxi. I find it funny that many people are claiming us this, or everyone that. Stop trying to speak for the entire world, and just give YOUR opinion. Everyone hates when people do that!;) ;) You were saying?