Does anyone else hate what Judd Winick did to GL?

[dcjoker]

Green Lantern used to be my favorite comic, but I stoppped reading it a few years ago. A month or two ago I was at the supermarket and picked up an issue on a whim, just to catch up on what was going on. Man, was I dissapointed! The issue basicly told the story of how Green Lantern's friend had gotten gay bashed, and GL tried to bully the Flash into going back in time to change it, and then pretty much quit being the Gl of earth. I was really ticked of that my once- favorite comic had been turned into a pro-hate crimes litigation pamphlet.
Before everyone goes nuts, this thread has nothing to do with politics, and I'll keep my political views to myself. ther point is that the writer took the comic,and with no regard for the character whatsoever, he transformed it into a soapbox from which to shout his own political opinions.
Now I have no problem with a comic book conveying a message- some of my favorite stories deliver messages that I absolutely disagree with- but your story must come first, and the message has to fit into that.
But this comic was the writer pounding me over the head with his views. C'mon: all the atrocities that Klye has seen- entire planets destroyed, friends killed, the woman he loved mutilated and stuffed in a refrigorator- none of these things every made him go try to go back in time and change it, and nothing ever made him want to quit. That was the whole point of his character- he had the will to overcome anything he faced. Until his friend got beat up. That drove him over the edge? Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless your sole purpose in telling the story was to spead your political beliefs.
I for one can't wait until Winick is off the book. Then it will go back to being a comic book, not a pulpit.

[metzgarob]

although i think he wasnt the worst writer to ever be on the book i DID stop getting it every month... wich isnt cool because now ben raab is going to do it and i like RAAB HIMSELF (heh) alot so now i have a chunk of books missing from my collection

ARGH

[clixhunter]

dcjoker...i'm a long time gl fan myself. i stopped collecting the book when john stewart became gl because of that whole tapestry world fiasco. i liked stewart as a darkstar just not as a gl.

but when kyle became gl it brought a humanity to green lantern that was missing. youd have to have read the books continuously...what kyle did was totally in character. the kid who was put in the hospital was his asst as a comic writer. and the kid had a crush on kyle and kyle helped him overcome his fears of what people think. so natually he would have a lot of guilt over putting him in a position where this might happen.
as far as leaving earth.....that bit was contrived. it was a plot development issue in order to create an opening in the jla for stewart.....to help interest in the cartoon.

i inderstand how you feel about it. but i thought it was nicely done and in character.

[PantherPriest]

I didn't look into the issue that dc speaks of but it looked cool and somewhat groundbreaking for a comic especially dc. But the only gl I've read lately is the current gl ga crossover which SUCKS.

I don't like the guy who took over gl; I don't like how Ollie is suddenly badass again and isn't getting along with kyle or his son connor for no paticular reason. And I don't like how winnick does either gl, and his kyle is just... unsettlingly wrong. However I love the creativity of the ring his doing. I'm ok with political views in comics. As long as it's GOOD, if it sucks then it will seem contrived and dydactic. I didn't even finsh issue 162 or gl #23.

So in other words yes, though for different reasons gl blows.

[clixhunter]

pantherpriest you are right. the current gl/ga crossover blows.
i get both books. and was really excited to see the crossover happening and then started reading it. barf!

[TheDarkKnight]

Winnick has done a few things that I disagreed with. But i dont have a major problem. He did do the story line where he jump-started the Battery again..........right. The only thing that i dont like is the fact the Jade is still not married to Kyle. I mean come on. What are we waiting till issue 200. Who else is Jade going to date. I mean shes green. How long is it going to take.

Good Job Winnick great run on GL but please do better in The New Teen Titans! And please let the only major change be Impulses and Superboys costumes!

[green_lantern0]

Yes, the current crossover really is terrible, I haven't even decided if I'm going to renew my sub. because of that trash. Winnick was Ok, but hopefully he'll do better with the Teen Titans. I'm a new reader who has always been a fan of GL, but actually reading some of this stuff was terrible. That's why I've starting reading mostly Marvel.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by dcjoker
Green Lantern used to be my favorite comic, but I stoppped reading it a few years ago. A month or two ago I was at the supermarket and picked up an issue on a whim, just to catch up on what was going on. Man, was I dissapointed! The issue basicly told the story of how Green Lantern's friend had gotten gay bashed, and GL tried to bully the Flash into going back in time to change it, and then pretty much quit being the Gl of earth. I was really ticked of that my once- favorite comic had been turned into a pro-hate crimes litigation pamphlet.
Before everyone goes nuts, this thread has nothing to do with politics, and I'll keep my political views to myself. ther point is that the writer took the comic,and with no regard for the character whatsoever, he transformed it into a soapbox from which to shout his own political opinions.
Now I have no problem with a comic book conveying a message- some of my favorite stories deliver messages that I absolutely disagree with- but your story must come first, and the message has to fit into that.
But this comic was the writer pounding me over the head with his views. C'mon: all the atrocities that Klye has seen- entire planets destroyed, friends killed, the woman he loved mutilated and stuffed in a refrigorator- none of these things every made him go try to go back in time and change it, and nothing ever made him want to quit. That was the whole point of his character- he had the will to overcome anything he faced. Until his friend got beat up. That drove him over the edge? Doesn't make a lot of sense, unless your sole purpose in telling the story was to spead your political beliefs.
I for one can't wait until Winick is off the book. Then it will go back to being a comic book, not a pulpit.

Well you can make the argument that most of the things you listed were in the purview of supervilliany/cosmic threats...but when people...the ones he is vested to protect...that they can act in such a manner...and that GL was not in a position to do anything, because unlike villians, humans are everywhere and obviously not easily differentiated...

The monsters that look like such on the outside are easy to hate...the ones that look human, however...he lost faith in humanity and the willingness to protect it...crisis of faith same thing that has happened in almost every comic series.

[dcjoker]

Originally posted by Jadehorde
Well you can make the argument that most of the things you listed were in the purview of supervilliany/cosmic threats...but when people...the ones he is vested to protect...that they can act in such a manner...and that GL was not in a position to do anything, because unlike villians, humans are everywhere and obviously not easily differentiated...

The monsters that look like such on the outside are easy to hate...the ones that look human, however...he lost faith in humanity and the willingness to protect it...crisis of faith same thing that has happened in almost every comic series.

But what about his girlfriend getting butchered and stuffed into his fridge? He was able to overcome that, and that was when he had no experience as a hero. But his friend getting beat up makes him want to quit? Seems just a bit forced. That's the whole point to GL, he has the willpower to deal with anything.

And you brung up my other problem with the story line. The concept might not have been so bad in a street-level comic like Nightwing or Daredevil. But GL is supposed to be taking on those super villains and cosmic threats. The story didn't fit, and it was pretty obvious that Winnick would have stuffed it into what ever comic book he would have gotten the chance to write.

[Valandar]

To me, the worst moment in any GL history was the whole Emerald Twilight fiasco... after they turned him into a villain, they did all sorts of retcon flashbacks to show that "Hal was always a mean one, all along" and so on. They destroyed a good character to support a bad editorial decision, and I'm still fuming.

And Kyle is and always will be a whiny gen-x wannabe in my opinion, take it how you will. The story you quote just reinforces it.

[dcjoker]

Originally posted by Valandar
To me, the worst moment in any GL history was the whole Emerald Twilight fiasco... after they turned him into a villain, they did all sorts of retcon flashbacks to show that "Hal was always a mean one, all along" and so on. They destroyed a good character to support a bad editorial decision, and I'm still fuming.

And Kyle is and always will be a whiny gen-x wannabe in my opinion, take it how you will. The story you quote just reinforces it.
Actually, I'm usually a fan of change in comic books, even if it's not that great, because change makes it seem more real. What I hate more than bad changes is when the creators don't have the stones to stick with their decision, and do even dumber stuff to make up for it (ie, Hal as Spectre)

[LM1313]

I thought the Terry-is-gay-bashed arc was one of the better ones in Winick's run, actually. But yeah, the whole "Kyle leaves Earth" thing was forced. Winick's run was dull and he never seemed able to write Kyle's dialogue quite right. He was so determined to make him trendy and angsty. Well, angst has its place, but I'd like to read Green Lantern not Green Batman please. And trendy? Kyle? The geeky, manga-watching comic book artist? O_o

Judging from Ben Raab's work on the GL/GA crossover (which is HORRIBLE), his run will be even worse. *weeps*

~LM~

[domgun]

who cares about Judd? (granted I still read the series) I care more about DC killing Hal Jordan... I won't lie I shed a few tears for Hals death

[clixhunter]

hal was and always will be the one true green lantern. i like kyle, but noone can walk in hal's shoes.

[metzgarob]

Originally posted by clixhunter
but noone can walk in hal's shoes.


HOPEFULLY NO-ONE EVER WILL!!!!!

Hal WAS pretty good, some may go as far as to say that he
WAS the best. but people seem to froget that although he was great at one time he was EASILY the corps. greatest mistake. Sinestro this, Sinestro that. I say Sinestro... BAH!! what did he do TRY to kidnap the gaurdians a few times, had his home planet worship him, BIG DEAL!!!

HAL KILLED THE CORPS.!!! In my opinion that makes him the WORST gl EVER!!!

IMHO :p

[clixhunter]

HAHAHAH metzgarob. point taken. hal still is the best though. nyah nyah.

[metzgarob]

seriously, laughing out loud :p

[bjmc1975]

Originally posted by metzgarob
HOPEFULLY NO-ONE EVER WILL!!!!!

Hal WAS pretty good, some may go as far as to say that he
WAS the best. but people seem to froget that although he was great at one time he was EASILY the corps. greatest mistake. Sinestro this, Sinestro that. I say Sinestro... BAH!! what did he do TRY to kidnap the gaurdians a few times, had his home planet worship him, BIG DEAL!!!

HAL KILLED THE CORPS.!!! In my opinion that makes him the WORST gl EVER!!!

IMHO :p

Considering that I don't even consider that storyline anything but an eleseworlds, I still have no compunction about calling Hal the greatest ever.

Ron Marz was the person who taught me that there's no substantial difference between what actually gets published and bad fanfic.

[Valandar]

And it was the single most inexplicable character change ever.

The way Hal Jordan was written prior to the Emerald Twilight fiasco, here's an in character way for hal to have dealt with the destruction of Coast City.

1) Hal grows desponandant, since he has lost most of what kept him tied to Earth. He starts growing slightly colder, and starts doing more work in space.

2) Later on, at their occasional get togethers, his best friend Ollie slaps him in the face with a yellow glove on, and tells him to snap out of it. He can either continue moping and eventually get himself killed, or he can make an oath that they wouldn't have died in vain. Responsibility was always Hal's watchword, almost as much as Spidey, and this would be the wakeup call hee needed.

The end result would be a Hal who was even more dedicated to Earth, though less to space, and maybe a bit more "modernized". He would be dedicated to a "Never again" mentality, and though slightly more hard-edged, would find in himself even greater will than he knew before.


And they wouldn't have to erase history with Zero Hour, either. They could "clean up" the Post Crisis continuity with something called 'Good Writing'...

[GL_DooM]

It's quite silly every time Green Lantern is discussed on these boards the topic always changes to how it sucks Hal is no longer GL. I do think hal is great as the spectre now and that book is great with De Mattias doing it.
I for one quit Green Lantern too when Hal went all Parralax on us and hated Kyle as his replacement. Recently though I started to buy GL again and found I actually liked him under Winnick's pen and while he was still no Hal he was acceptable both as a character and a GL. The whole GL GA crossover I think is a refrence to so many bitter Hal Jordan fans with Ollie moaning page after page how their is only one GL in his book (You read the Spectre where Hal invites Ollie to his neice's birthday party and gets her to call him batman? It was great)!
I think that the gay attack was an extremely well done story as it points something out quite graphicly that goes on in real life EVERY DAY in america. Some real life stories on attacks on gay people in the states are really horrific and I thought it was very brave of Winnick and DC to give awareness to the issue in their comic. As for the justification of Kyle running from earth, well he has a lot of background issues to go with what happens to his friend from everything in terms of relationships with Jade to his father. Everyone no matter how strong in willpower can fall once in a while and I like the way Kyle ran away and then in GL160 Terry had a go at him for it. Personally I like Winnick and think Exiles is great too. I'm looking forward to Outsiders, hopefully he'll do great things with Metamorpho.

[coastcityo]

I don't hate what Judd has done to the book, considering that I don't read anything with Kyle (GL, JLA, Titans, doesn't matter) Ron Marz ruined the comic that comic that started me reading comics 25 years ago (and began my trek away from super hero comics that continues to this day) under orders from Denny O'neil (who has hated Hal since the 70's and his GL/GA arc), but be that as it may...

Introducing human ideas and concers, wether it be Judd talking gay bashing or Denny O talking junky sidekicks is much better than the alternative of stale comics about the hero bashing the villain of the week.

and as far as the whole "he didn't go nuts when his girl was stuffed in a fridge" argument, it was my understanding (I don't read Kyle, remeber) that he tried to kill the bad guy what did that anyway, or am I wrong on that one?

and for all you John Stewart bashers, Kyle doesn't deserve to carry John's battery polishing rag, and even Gnort is twice the GL Kyle will ever be.

[LM1313]

Honestly, I liked Hal better crazy. I read all 46 issues of the modern run where he was GL and . . . well, they're just forgettable. Kicking Hal over to the "Dark Side of the Force" certainly wasn't necessarily the best way to fix the book, but I can see the logic behind it. And at least it gave him a reason to get all broody like he was always doing.

In any case, don't blame Marz. He was the writer, but it was the editorial decree (from Kevin Dooley) that said Hal had to go. And then Dan Jurgens made it permanent in Zero Hour. (Otherwise, I suspect Hal could've made a Batman/Azrael type comeback.)

Ultimately, however, blame Gerard Jones. First he indirectly put Hal on the road to destruction by making him such an inexplicably angsty yet strangely bland character that the editor decided to knock him off. ("This ring makes me something LESS . . . yet something MORE . . . than a man!" First issue of the current GL run. He actually got paid to write that. PAID.) Then he killed the JLE/JLI series with his "Power Girl's baby" and "Dr. Light is afraid of the dark" nonsense. (GOD I hated what he did to Dr. Light!) At the same time, he moved onto JLA and proceeded to write forgettable stories with third-tier characters (Yazz . . . *shudder*), inexplicably turned Maxwell Lord evil (maybe he was jealous HE didn't get to write about Hal's insane turn?), introduced Ice Maiden (aka "Fire's lesbian stalker"), and generally let the book degenerate until both JLI and JLA were put out of their misery to make way for Grant Morrison's JLA.

Gerard Jones was last seen writing for Pokemon. I think that says it all. :rolleyes:

I got into comics late in life (just a few years ago, really) so Kyle was the first GL I knew about (through the pages of JLA, which one of my friends collected.) He's still my favorite GL . . . although now that I've collected some backissues, I've got to say that Guy Gardner and G'nort are close seconds! (Guy was more fun with the yellow ring, though. It really fit his rebellious personality. And G'nort . . . G'nort just ROCKS! :p )

Did I mention how excited I am that a certain fuzzy GL is slated to reappear in Formerly Known as the Justice League? :grin:

~LM~

[bjmc1975]

Gerard Jones burned out. He admitted it. He had been writing too many GL titles for too long, and his writing really suffered towards the end. I'm not going to defend the last year or so he wrote GL; it was a bad title, and the writer has agreed.

But none of this acquits Ron Marz. While I actually have more venom for Dooley than Marz, I don't think he's even involved in comics anymore, so it's irrelevant. But Marz's failure to even attempt to respect the intelligence or feelings of the Hal fans is enough reason dislike him. The bland, whiny character he replaced Hal with was even worse. If he had simply left the past in the past and then gone on to do something interesting with the book I might not blame him so much. But there was nothing but the name Green Lantern that seperated Kyle from about two dozen other insecure, angst-ridden characters on the racks.

[metzgarob]

just so you know...

Ron Marz is still in comics, he works for crossgen exclusively.

He currently writes Sojourn and i think one other book. And in a few months will start a pirate book.

Sojourn is easily one of the best books out right now

[Mayberry Bat]

I'm not very aware of this Winnick guy. I don't follow GL other than the JLA appearances. My question to all of you is this: When did it come out that Winnick would be doing the new Titans series? Last I heard Geoff Johns (JSA, and several others) was tapped to be the writer for it.

[GreenSentinel7]

On the whole Judd Winick issue, I say this. Winick is a one trick pony, when it comes to writing. He recieved huge acclaim for tackling the issue of homosexuality in his book Pedro and Me after that every book he has tacked himself onto (Exiles excluded) has dealt with homosexuality in one way or another. As much as I disliked Kyle (Hal is the better Lantern, hands down) he should have never left the planet. John Stewart is a good guy and all (Thank God it wasn't Guy Gardener) but he WAS a Lantern, not anymore. Tying the comic to the cartoon was an awful move. That and Kyles Ion costume is nothing to write home about.

Well that my two cents anyway.

[Mayberry Bat]

Ignore my previous post. I was definitely excited about Johns doing the new Titans book and this thread scared me. Winnick is doing the 3issue Graduation Day between the Titans & Young Justice. Supposed to bridge the gap before folding Young Justice and Johns will be doing the ongoing Titans book.

And for some reason it wouldn't let me edit my previous post.

[LM1313]

Whew, you had me worried there for a minute! I think I'll give Winick a chance on Outsiders, though. I mean . . . the book DOES have Nightwing in it . . . ;)

~LM~

[metzgarob]

i like hcrealms :p

ok...

again Hal was easily the worst GL (he destroyed the corps)and although this will cause some dislike for me it has also been shown that kyle is the best. The stroy when hal came back from the past, just before that, kyle was flung into the far future. In said future it was revealed that Kyle went down as histories greatest GL (at least until that point) Speaking of the point, mine is that if you like hal the most doesnt make him the best. lets all deal with the fact that kyle is here now and that hal turned out to be the worst.

my favorite GL's most to least
Alan Scott
Guy Gardener
Sinestro
Gnort
Kyle Rayner
Tomar Re
Hal Jordan
Ch'p
3592+ other gl's
john stewart

grrr... john stewart
GRRRRR... BATMAN

[clixhunter]

metzgarob....you know batman is going to haunt your dreams for "grrrr'ing" at him...lol

i'm starting the "hal to short sheet alan scotts bed" fan club here.

[MarkFinn]

I think Green Lantern fans have become the Legion of Super Heroes fans of the 21st century.

[LM1313]

Originally posted by metzgarob
i like hcrealms :p

ok...

again Hal was easily the worst GL (he destroyed the corps)and although this will cause some dislike for me it has also been shown that kyle is the best. The stroy when hal came back from the past, just before that, kyle was flung into the far future. In said future it was revealed that Kyle went down as histories greatest GL (at least until that point)

Not quite. Actually, Hal was recorded as history's greatest GL and they had no record of Kyle. But yeah, I always thought it was strange that everyone (well, except Batman) retained such love for Hal.

Put aside the fact that you might not agree or like the Emerald Twilight thing and think about if something like that really happened. If one of my co-workers suddenly went nuts and killed a bunch of people, I don't think people at the water coolers would go around saying, "Gee, so-and-so was the BEST ACCOUNTANT EVER!" Even if they had, in fact, been the best accountant ever, the whole "mass murderer" thing would put a bit of a pall over it. ;)

So while I can understand individual fans liking Hal, I don't understand why the other characters in the DCU are so forgiving. It's not like the guys in JSA are running around saying, "That Obsidian was the BEST DEPRESSED DARKNESS GUY EVER . . . before he turned evil and tried to kill us and all that stuff."

(Poor Obsidian . . . I LIKED Obsidian, too.)

Overall, I think the best GL is Alan Scott. If nothing else, he has tenure over all the others! :p (Plus I like his cape!)

~LM~

[rockrolf]

I really don't hate what Winnick has done to GL, I think he has changed things up a bit. It has stayed somewhat fresh as a result. Maybe not great but it is still a decent read. Was his run on the book the best? Not even close. I think overall his run was alright, with some spots that hit and miss a lot. Will Raab be better? I doubt it actually but heres to hoping.

Tom

[dcjoker]

As far as whos' the best goes, I remember there was an issue of GL a little bit after Zero Hour where Hal came back and then some how tricked Kyle into giving up his ring, and then he beat the #### of the JLA. The only one left standing was a non- powered Kyle, who went after Hal with a metal pipe. This act of bravery in the face of such odds humbled Hal, who gave up his fight with the other heroes. He gave kyle the ring back and told him that he (Kyle) deserved to wear it more than he ( Hal) ever did. Hal left earth and went off to some wierd planet, and seemed at piece. I don't recall all the specifics, but this is more or less what happened.

[dcjoker]

Originally posted by LM1313
Not quite. Actually, Hal was recorded as history's greatest GL and they had no record of Kyle. But yeah, I always thought it was strange that everyone (well, except Batman) retained such love for Hal.

Put aside the fact that you might not agree or like the Emerald Twilight thing and think about if something like that really happened. If one of my co-workers suddenly went nuts and killed a bunch of people, I don't think people at the water coolers would go around saying, "Gee, so-and-so was the BEST ACCOUNTANT EVER!" Even if they had, in fact, been the best accountant ever, the whole "mass murderer" thing would put a bit of a pall over it. ;)

So while I can understand individual fans liking Hal, I don't understand why the other characters in the DCU are so forgiving. It's not like the guys in JSA are running around saying, "That Obsidian was the BEST DEPRESSED DARKNESS GUY EVER . . . before he turned evil and tried to kill us and all that stuff."

(Poor Obsidian . . . I LIKED Obsidian, too.)

Overall, I think the best GL is Alan Scott. If nothing else, he has tenure over all the others! :p (Plus I like his cape!)

~LM~

Good point, but I think most of the heroes considered themselves to be a little closer than just co workers. Imagine it this way: one of your best friends has a personal tragedy that sends him over the edge. In his insane rage, he kills some of your other friends. Looking back, you would never forgive your friend for what he did, but you would always remember the man he was before he lost his mind.

[bizarrome]

As Kyle pays his respects, his ring starts to glow uncontrollably. Suddenly, a very confused Hal Jordan pops out of Kyle's ring.

That's right folks, in between issues #48 and #49 of GREEN LANTERN, as Hal headed toward Oa, he was intercepted by the renegade Guardian, Appa Ali Apsa, returned from the dead. Appa captured Hal and imprisoned him inside the ring. Appa took the form of Hal and continued onward to Oa, and revenge. After killing all who would stand in his way, Appa took of the ring and crushed it under his boot, seemingly disposing of Hal. He then absorbed the Power Battery, killing the Guardians. The shock of the tremendous power, added to Appa's own mental instability, caused him to actually think he was Hal Jordan. Which explains the "Hal type" things Parallax has done. Ganthet rebuilt the ring, but failed to rescue Hal. He gave the ring to Kyle Rayner. Ganthet merged with Parallax to battle Appa from within, but also failed. When Parallax died restarting the sun, Hal was freed from Kyle's ring.

The future. Hal returns to the remains of Oa and absorbs the excess energy. Realizing the need for a Corps, but also not wanting to return to the oppressive ways of the old Corps, Hal becomes the Last Guardian. He uses the planet Mogo as New Oa , more of a tribute to the old Guardians and the GLs of the past than a Citadel. Hal asks John Stewart to join him and be the mentor and "brains" behind the operation. As the Living Battery, Hal creates several rings and recruits new GLC members from across the galaxy. Kyle Rayner, however, chooses to stay outside the Corps. Hal assures Kyle that GLC members will not be under the strict rules the Guardians once imposed. Kyle still refuses. Hal accepts it and gives Kyle his blessing as Earth's Green Lantern. A new title, GREEN LANTERN CORPS is created, showcasing Hal and John, the Guardian GLs, and the new Corps. GREEN LANTERN remains Kyle's book.

This was taken from the website for the GLC Petition at:

http://www.glcorps.org/petition.html

This could even work in the current state of affairs. Hal comes back as the Spectre because his body was destroyed when the ring was crushed and he then took over from Jim Corrigan as the Spectre and the new guardian. The he could help the Green Lanterns more ala the Phantom Stranger and the John Stewart and Kyle Rayner things could have stayed as stated. Also, Since Killawog is dead and they need a no nonsense trainer, Guy Gardner could be reserrected to become the tough as nails trainer of new GL's.

This way everybody wins. I don't mind there being someone else as earths primary GL, even though I like Hal the best. But I find DC's handeling of Hal offenssive and hogwash. You don't see that with Wally and Barry from the Flash. Barry made the ultimate sacrifice and Wally honnors him for it and now stands on his own. I just wish they could lay off the BS about Hal and let Kyle stand on his own. He can, so why bash Hal in the process??????:angry:

[dcjoker]

Sounds good. But then again, anything would be better than what they really did.

[PantherPriest]

Batman doesn't have love for anybody

[bjmc1975]

I like bizzarome's idea, but here was the one I came up with about nine-ten years ago, circa Zero Hour, and revised as events warranted:

During that same period, Hal was attacked and replaced - by Power Ring, from Earth-3. Power Ring had been saved by the Anti-Monitor for this very purpose (he was the last of the CSA guys to fall, if you'll remember, and we only saw him fade out). This would explain the absolutely massive plot hole in Emerald Twilight (why the Guardians had no control over the ring - Power Ring's namesake weapon works differently). His purpose was simple - to rebuild the multiverse so that the Anti-Monitor could regroup his power and try again (hence Zero Hour). Realizing - by the example of the man he replaced - that he could do great good, not evil, he sought redemption (hence his sacrifice in Final Night). Meanwhile, our Hal Jordan, who had switched places with Power Ring on Earth-3 (reconstituted during Zero Hour, which is we saw the Grant Morrison "Earth-2" story), gathered together the supervillains of our world, who were heroic on that one, and created a JLA for Earth-3 to fight the Crime Syndicate...

[bizarrome]

That's a good idea too bjmc1975! I could like just about anything that could set things straight!

[metzgarob]

here was actually my idea from i while back...

everything is fine the way it is, and batman sucks. :p

[Briel]

Hal Jordon wasn't retconned mean. He always took every failure too personally. In the 70's GL/GA series we see the beginnings of Hal's Martyr complex. The destruction of Coast City pushed him over the edge, because he felt it was his fault, for not being good enough. It was this mindset that made him the greatest GL, but also led to his downfall. I wish they hadn't done the story, but it was realistic, and it took guts to do it.
Of course, the only permanent thing in the DC Universe is Barry Allen's death, so take heart. Hal could come back. Heck, Krypto did.

[bjmc1975]

It was hardly realistic - regardless of attempts by some marz apologists to make the 180 seem realistic, that sort of psychosis didn't make any real sense. There's a big gap between taking failure personally and turning into a raving madman.

A much bigger problem with the story, though, was that the Guardians could have dealt with the situation and didn't. The story doesn't make any logical sense if Parallax was using a GL ring. If he had been using a Qwardian ring, or some alternate-dimension ring, or something similar over which the Guardians lacked control, the story would be internally consistent. As written, there's a plot hole you could fly a sun-eater through.

[Briel]

DC hasn't been the same since #### Giordano left as EIC. Many DC characters have been shoehorned into agenda stories. I haven't read Winnik's GL, but I can't dislike a guy for what he was hired for. I flip through issues time to time at the shop to see if something catches my interest, and maybe some day it will.

[bizarrome]

I like Kyle's new look and it seems they are trying to put some things back the way they were, but they have to somehow untie the knot that affix's Hal to Parrallax. I mean look at Dark Phoenix and Jean Grey.... Anything can happen!

Oh if they made a clix of Kyle and he looked the way he does now in the book I would buy it. The old look just doesn't do it for me....

[metzgarob]

bizarrome:
i dont get your analogy of hal and jean grey, arent they about the same anyways. a good guy that went bad and is good again.





also in the current gl story a few issues back kyle gave mogo back his gl power, does this now mean that mogo doesnt have the yellow weakness or does he still have it?

[bizarrome]

What I mean is that the Dark Phoenix turned out to be an alien entitiy and not the real Jean Grey who was locked in suspension on the oceans floor the entire time Phoenix was around with the X-Men.

Put Simply they can reveal a storyline that obsolves Hal of being Parrallax completely....

[bjmc1975]

I suspect that someday DC will realize that that's the only way to win back a lot of the disgruntled fans - everything done with Hal since then has only made things worse, not better.

[Kell31]

Thank god DC took him off the book. I mean it was bad enough that Kyle's assitant Pedro got beat down, Kyle then chases Puck down in an alley and comes short of killing him, I mean holy re-run of the real world special batman. At least he left the book before kyle dumped Jade for an asian doctor. Winick I thought was going to GA? So Connor is gay, GA shoots puck through the hands and Ollie falls for an Asian doctor? Oh wait he is doing Teen Titans, So Puck joins the TT and Nightwing comes back to beat puck then falls for an asian doctor. Screw Winick! He is a one trick pony. He must have had someone raining him in during his run on Exiles. Winick should have never gottena shot in comics. His little comic strip blew and so has his career in comics. At least Sarah from the real world miami, was working with GEN13. I personally boycott anything Winick is on.

[Natt the Hat]

I'm surprised that Geoff Johns named has been mentioned on this thread. He's probably the most left of all writers and uses his comics as a soapbox. DC keeps him under control, they keep his views subtle. However, that's not the case at Marvel.

Read the Avengers since he took over. The Avengers are not anti American and pro UN. US soldiers are drawing guns on 4 yr olds. The list goes on.