sol's take- Superman

[sol]

The Man of Steel - ahh, the dream of getting a Superman HeroClix. I was expecting a figure so powerful, he would be an army unto himself - at any rank. The writing was on the wall for Marvel: stand back - here comes Superman. Then I woke up. I woke up to a rookie Superman that didn't have Super Strength all the way down the dial and needed help to break down a wall. He COULDN'T BREAK DOWN A WALL WITHOUT BATMAN!!! What a crock. I'm a Marvel man primarily, but I actually felt like the DC characters got slapped in the face. I wondered what comic books were the designers reading? Did they ever read a DC comic? If anything, Marvel should have been underpowered.

Of all the things in HeroClix to complain about for me, this is the worst. Superman not being made for HeroClix. Oh sure, there is a figure with his NAME on it, but he ain't no Superman I know.

To this end, I have constructed a Superman dial worthy of the name. First off, there is NO version of Superman that doesn't do at least 4 clicks of damage. Most do 5 on his first click. He's Superman.

Superman (rookie)
10 10 9 8 8 10 9 8 7
10 10 9 9 9 8 8 7 7
15 15 14 17 16 15 14 13 13
4 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
6 range
1 arrow
Superman Ally

Superman (experienced)
11 10 10 9 9 10 10 9 8 7
10 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7
16 16 15 17 16 15 14 14 13 13
5 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
8 range
1 arrow
Superman Ally


Superman (Veteran)
12 10 10 9 9 10 10 9 9 8 7
11 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6
17 16 16 15 17 17 16 15 15 14 13
5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2
8 range
1 arrow
JLA

The Man of Steel is here! Superman sports devastating damage values (he's the toughest Hero on the block), has good attack power and loads of Charge. He is also Impervious for a good number of clicks, and has Leadership on every version. Never truly out of the fight, Superman has Super Strength all the way down the dial with a minimum damage of 2. The veteran features the JLA team ability. Up, Up, and Away!

[sol]

Well, the new Superman vindicates my version.

[Llark]

Superman is a good guy right? and he doeesnt want to kill anyone so he dont punch his hardest... just my theory on why he has 3 dmg.

I like your superman alot more. more playable but he doent get any CCE? and how many points are these?

[sol]

I was of the mind that Superman really isn't a close combat expert, so why would he have the power. He should do solid damage.

As far as points, i have to calculate that, or one of the guys that always do can. I think he'll be similarly priced to the current versions, though.

[Manchine]

Your Vet Comes to 216 points. But I know once it gets above 150 it harder to do the points.

[sol]

i thought so, Manchine...I had deconstructed Vet Superman's cost a was back, and I took off Leadership and gave him 4 clicks of 4 damage and he was around 217...the ACTUAL Superman came up to like 209 points.

[Manchine]

Actually he came to exactly 217 becuase I left a 1 on his damage instead of 2.

;) :laugh: :p :) ;)

[Answerman]

its the calssic theory, but anybody out there that actually reads the Superman comics knows that hes just simply put the toughest DC guy out there...
Take Superman VS Darkseid...
he beat Darkseid so badly that Darkseid thought he'd lost his vision before Superman explained that he'd just bean beaten so badly his eyes were swolen shut....
the new version is excellent no doubt....
But Supes SHould still look like how you've created him here...
AND he should have CCE, as shown by the new version....
theat whole bit about the "dark side" elseworlds version being tougher than the regular Supes is bunk!!!!
That Supes couldn't defeat Supes without help from a mother box..., the current Supes SLAUGHTERED Darkseid...

[sol]

I don't disagree that SoD Superman should have CCE, ANswerman. I DO disagree that regular Superman should have it. Not trying to take anything away from Big Blue (otherwise I wouldn't have done a 'correction'), but he isn't a top notch fighter.He is good enough to warrant an 11 AV with high naked damage, because he's just that powerful. But he doesn't know martial arts or have any particluar ability that makes him better in close combat than ranged. That was why i dropped CCE. To each his own, however.

[The Charlatan]

I think you nailed Superman right on the head here, sol. He has Leadership, but isn't crippled by a usessly large amount of it, and simply has a high base damage rather than relying on CCE.

[sol]

But if everything you say is a lie, wouldn't that mean i didn't get him right, and he should ONLY rely on cce?

LOL

Seriously, though...thanks. Check out all my other takes articles when you get a chance.

[Llark]

Well Doomsday doenst excatly know any martial arts that i know of. he just punches people REALLY hard i think thats why he has CCE. i think he should have natural high DMG. so now i see why supes has no CCE.

[Answerman]

again this is a popular misconception...
that is to say that he isn't a master fighter, not only has SUperman fought in raganarok for 2000 years (yep two thousand,,,at least) out lasting the gods them selves, and proveing worthy of Thors hammer in the corse, but hes been trained by MOngul's son (who specificly trained him to be creative with his powers, and NOT hold back) as well as having fought in the formers, fathers integalactic gladiator arenas...
I can go through my Superman comics and find all sorts of examples where hes been shown to possess great fighting talents, and the reason that the Dark Side Superman has CCE is no different a rteason for why the current Supes Should, (and does in fact, just in lame spots of his dial) have CCE...but still you have a great representation of Supes, and I am by no means trying to take away from that, simply trying to spread a bit of awareness of ol Supes, and what hes REALLY capable of...
The Current Supes isn't the guy you see on the cartoons, and hes admittedly glossed over in the JLA comic...
But I will say that I greatly appeciate seeing him with leader ship, and big clicks of damage..
for the record I'd give him CCe after the leadership to show when hes gotta get down to SUPER buisness, and hes one of the last ones standing,...

[tyroclix]

The only 'problem' I see with your version is the 5 damage (and 4 for that matter) will most likely be used at range. Yes Charging in and doing 7 with an object will happen, but why not hover about and blast away?

This is where CCE comes in. It gives him that heavy duty punch while still 'limiting' his heat vision. If WizKids gave their version CCE, the three damage would have been fine - although he should have it almost all the way down. 2 is ridiculously low for Clark.

At least that's how I see it...

[DTM]

GREAT stats Sol, good job. Superman wasnt made as good as he should have been, given too much of some things, not enough of others. I can see CCE being warranted, BUT I think he deserves natural high damage more, as Doomsday should as well. I mean heck, Thor is a MASTER fighter, but he doesnt have CCE or RCE, just HIGH damage. Could see a 5 for Thors first click of Vet while were at it. :)

[Answerman]

I agree DTM, but I'm not saying dump the 5 clicks, his heat visions been decribed as hot as the sun, hell it hurts him when Bizzarro uses his heat vision on him, and he can withstand the heat of the sun, and nukes!

[Sweetcurse]

I like CCE with a 3 damage. It just makes for a more realist view on him. sure, his vision is nasty, at three it can bypass invulnerabiity and destroy walls, but we all agree that his punches are more dangerous. 3 with CCE feels right. I hate leqadership on him because itis a waste due to hios points, but sometimes they have certain powers and there nothing ot do about it. Also, if spidey gets outwit to represent that last heroic push, why not Superman!.

[DTM]

CCE for Supes maybe, but he certainly needs a higher base Damage than 3. Hes SUPERMAN, and shouldnt be in the Mr Hyde/Solomon Grundy category as a MAX in Damage.

[supergoblin]

Originally posted by Answerman
I agree DTM, but I'm not saying dump the 5 clicks, his heat visions been decribed as hot as the sun, hell it hurts him when Bizzarro uses his heat vision on him, and he can withstand the heat of the sun, and nukes!

Bizzarro no have heat visoin bizarro have frost visoin

[Answerman]

check out the MAn of Steel mini series that reintroduced Superman.
This is the example that I'm citing...
IN it the 1st bizarro has heat vision.
The current bizarro is the 3rd or 4th bizarro...

[aubrey]

My favourite version of superman is the one I ordered from Wizard magazine. This version of superman has hypersonic speed on his first three clixs. 236 pts but so powerful. 11 movement, 8 range gives him a 19 square range. S team ability means no need to worry about stealth. That means he is pretty much guaranted first strike. and he can always slam opponents with objects even if they are on top of it with out having to break away. the regular versions of superman should have this power but not always right away because superman tends to be over confident and held back when going into battle.

[Beastchylde]

I like your version of Superman but I think some of you are missing the point about CCE. Superman is not the best fighter out there, but by that same rational Nightcrawler is not super fast, but he gets Hypersonic Speed. IMO you shouldn't get bogged down by the name of a power. It's just a name. If it best represents a characters abilities than go with it. I always thought that Superman should get CCE because his Heat Vision is not as strong as one of his punches. I have made several versions of Superman's stats, some with CCE, some without. But after hearing about SoD Superman I decided that CCE is a must. I would be happy to post my version of Superman's stats. Some of you may have seen my Superman stats in the past but these are different than any others I have done before. They have been revised about a million times. Many may say that he is too strong but, well, he is Superman. If any of you are interested in seeing them let me know. I just don't want to hijack any threads, nor do I really feel like making my own.

[discombobulous]

I like to see how many people agree about Big Blue getting the shaft in clix. The one thing that I think all of his clix should have is a desperation click.

Supes' final click should see his attack spike up to arund 8 or 9 and his damage spike to about 4. He could keep the move of 4 (or have it spike to 6) and gain charge. My reason? The fight with Doomsday. They each hit each other with everything they had and were both killed.

It just always sounded right to me...

[sol]

Originally posted by Beastchylde
I like your version of Superman but I think some of you are missing the point about CCE. Superman is not the best fighter out there, but by that same rational Nightcrawler is not super fast, but he gets Hypersonic Speed. IMO you shouldn't get bogged down by the name of a power. It's just a name. If it best represents a characters abilities than go with it. I always thought that Superman should get CCE because his Heat Vision is not as strong as one of his punches. I have made several versions of Superman's stats, some with CCE, some without. But after hearing about SoD Superman I decided that CCE is a must. I would be happy to post my version of Superman's stats. Some of you may have seen my Superman stats in the past but these are different than any others I have done before. They have been revised about a million times. Many may say that he is too strong but, well, he is Superman. If any of you are interested in seeing them let me know. I just don't want to hijack any threads, nor do I really feel like making my own.

Hey, it's an open forum, Beastchylde. It's my thread. I won't feel threatened if you put your vision up to compare. The thing is to have lively discussion on the topic. Maybe somebody of influence will be reading my posts on guys not in the game, and guys in the game but not in the game (like Superman - til the day after I did this thread).

On the CCE thing, maybe the name does get to people a bit, but then again, maybe it should. Passing out that power like candy in HT is what probably caused the 3 raw damage cap, which is just dumb. I see your point about Heat Vision:if the figure has a range and does 4 or 5 clicks, people are going to use it, rather than get up close. CCE gives them a reason to get base to base, but it also threatens the CCE fig. Maybe I'll add some CCE on his 2 damage clicks to show the steam running out on Heat Vision, but I really do support roughly equal damage values on Superman to the Hulk.

[razorramon31]

I think that some where on hi dial you should put HSS he desees it some where on his dial...has shown this power many,many,many(he's been around for a long time!...) times...The rest of his stats are impressive to say the least..

[Manchine]

See thats where I disagree, no to HSS. Becuase he has shown it many many many more times that he doesnt do that.

[Braden]

Originally posted by sol
I was of the mind that Superman really isn't a close combat expert, so why would he have the power. He should do solid damage.

As far as points, i have to calculate that, or one of the guys that always do can. I think he'll be similarly priced to the current versions, though.

So his heat vision is as powerful as his puches?

[Manchine]

Actually yes it is.

[Terman8er]

Not going to name names here, don't want to twist any knickers, but Superman SO needs to have HSS on his dial. Maybe not hte first click as he isn't prone to fly off the handle right off the bat but he will, and has MANY times (over the past 5 years) cranked up the speed.

Just ask:

Mongul Jr.
the Three gods (bull headed one, etc...)
The Japanese War god
Impereix and his Probes
Coldcast
Manchester Black
Maxima
Hat
Managere' (sp?)
Massacre
Green Lantern
Doomsday
Luthor

And that is just off the top of my head.

[Manchine]

Now that I can see. Easily! Usually he doesnt start that way but in the middle he starts laying it on.


Wow this might be a first me agreeing with Terman8er. :p ;) :laugh: :p ;) :laugh:

[sol]

Ok, guys....lets just clarify something. My sol's Superman is a 'fix' of the grossly underpowered Hypertime Supes. In a regular version, i would stay with the Charge, and as we have seen, a Unique version would get it. Up to this point, I have said OWAW Superman just doesn't need to any more powerful than he is, however Cosmic Justice has somewhat changed that line of thinking.

So, this is a regular version, no HSS in my view.

[razorramon31]

All righty then...and i meant that it should be Somewhere on his dial I didn't state where...

[Braden]

Originally posted by Manchine
Actually yes it is.
refering to heat vision vs punches
If this is the case (Braden doesn't read much superman) or even if they are remotely close than no CCE.

[Answerman]

hmmmm, Charge for 5 clicks than hypersonic for the remaining sounds too perfectly accurate for words...

[razorramon31]

LOL:grin: :cool: :cool: :eek: :confused: :knockedou

[razorramon31]

LOL:grin: :cool: :cool: :eek: :confused: :knockedou

[sol]

Originally posted by Answerman
hmmmm, Charge for 5 clicks than hypersonic for the remaining sounds too perfectly accurate for words...

Well, I disagree. Where is the Force Blast gonna go?;)


Look, I'm not arguing that Superman qualifies imeninently for HSS. I know he does. But Charge can just as much simulate a guy who moves really fast and attacks in the blink of an eye, too. It's less expensive, and it is still accurate. I love OWAW Supes. So much so I wrote a strategy article on the figure for the Wizkids site. But i think the HSS on Superman should be saved for Unique versions, ESPECIALLY if we are talking accuracy because Supes is probably the single most powerful hero on Earth. In Clix he should represent that. HSS on a regular 5 damage Supes (like I have would be moy expensive and excessive to me).

I am not saying Supes shouldn't have HSS, and you guys have been reading my dials long enough by now to know i have reasons for everything ( i would think) in and not in a dial.

[Dangerboy!]

I don't think this version of Superman needs HSS. Not because Superman hasn't demostrated that power again and again, but because of playability. A Superman that can hit-and-run for 5 isn't game breaking, but it's close.

Besides, even in the comics, Supes rarely uses such tactics. He charges in and beats opponents up close.

[razorramon31]

One question what is the Force blast suppossed to represent? His Hyper-Breath?

[sol]

Yup...razorramon31...you hit the nail on the head.

[razorramon31]

Unbeliavable...well at least they put that in there...And although I see your point I would have no trouble accepting a Superman with 5 damage with HSS...Hey he's Superman...