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View Full Version : Tournament Report 5/18/03 – Marvel 300 point - The cheese stands alone...


onew0rd
05/20/2003, 18:49
It’s upsetting. You have a fun place to play which you just discovered. The people are cool, the competition is good, and everyone is in concert about what’s cheese and what’s not. Everyone avoids the cheese. We’re all there to have a good time. Unfortunately, this place is more a victim waiting to happen than anything else.

“I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.”
--Jack Handy Deep Thoughts

This is the story of Sunday. Me, my brother Eric (pujutu on HCRealms), and my younger cousin Manny all head out to the venue. We arrive and hang for a while. Everyone starts arriving and we all just congregate around the Mechwarrior tourney tables watching the games. Really neat game I'm considering dipping into someday (funds allowing). I have a really fun team I built ready to go but it doesn’t seem tweaked enough and I really don’t want to give it a baptism by fire, so I change teams to a more comfortable build. The original team was as follows:

2 V Pyro 84
2 R Vulture 30
2 R Psylocke 58
2 V Doombot 76
R Destiny
V Hand Ninja
V Paramedic

EE + Enhancement is fun! But probably not too viable (we’ll see one day ;) ) This team also illustrates how dupes are not ALWAYS bad (very subtle and mild foreshadowing). I need these figures as they are the most efficient at what they do for the points and a little redundancy means I can pull off my “trick” with more regularity. But enough about that.

I actually went with the following:

U Nightcrawler
U Electra
E Hercules
R Vulture
R Vulture
U Green Goblin
E Paramedic
V Paramedic (Should have been a con artist)

I removed the Ninjas/Psylocke from my previous team and added the Herc and Vulture tandem to try and rectify the useless character syndrome that plagued the previous build brought upon by the use of too many characters and no leadership or freemove. My brother brought his tried and true team of E Taskmaster, U Wolverine, V Doc Ock, V Doombot, R Vulture, Wasp, medic.

We all fill out registration sheets and the tourney starts up. First round…I get paired with my brother. Ugh.

We play and the starts are aligned in my favor. He crit misses once, rolls a 1 on BCF against Herc once and I SS a couple of times. I clean sweep him in minutes. This match can (and has) gone either way. He has very high attack values and rarely misses and Taskmaster E is a beast for his first click or 2. It usually becomes Nightcrawler vs Taskmaster/Doombot. This game my team came out on top however.

There is a very balanced, fun, casual environment at this place. Everyone plays competitive teams (to their respective level) and for the most part, no one tries to cheese anyone out. In talking to the regulars who have been playing there for a long time, this is the way it has always been. When I asked the judge about Firelord, etc, he mentioned that it has never been a problem, and if he feels it ever becomes a problem, he would evaluate the situation. Among the regulars (and me) this would never happen. Not because Firelord teams would lose, because frankly, they would probably dominate, but because we choose not to cheese people out. It’s a definite unwritten or spoken rule. Well back to the report…Dave walks in. Dave’s a guy I played in the XP Marquee. He is a power gamer. He plays FL or whatever it takes to go home with the LE. Now, don’t get me wrong he has every right to be this way. We’ve chatted several times. And honestly, I think he’s a decent guy. The problem is this. I just feel like it takes something away from everyone else’s experience when someone comes and changes the culture of the place by playing something evil. So he walks in and someone groans (I didn’t know why at the time) and he registers his team. I eventually greet him and we chat a bit over a cigarette. When the tourney starts and I’m setting up for my first round vs my brother, I glance over and see the reason for the initial groan. Dave has fielded a team of:

E Ultron
E Wasp
R Black Panther
R Con Artist x 6
R Blizzard

He proceeds to demolish his opponents team one 6-7 damage blast at a time. His opponent, Mike (if you read my previous report this is captain bad luck from the last round who missed repeatedly with Spiral), looks dejected and upset. He makes some stupid mistakes, such as not trying to at least kill off a Con Artist or two or some way to stop Dave from cleansweeping. He basically starts pushing his figures to death in exasperation and loses quickly to the Con Artist perplexed death bolts fired by a Wasp-flown Ultron.

2nd Round

I play Dave. I take a breath and try and think how I can deal with that. My only hope is to win the die roll, choose an indoor map, and Taxi/Perplex NC to pop his Blizzard out of Pulse Wave. He wins the die roll and chooses outdoors :( . We set up and here I make a questionable decision. I should have gone to a rooftop to make it harder for him to hit me. Granted, he would have been able to still probably get at me first for tons of damage, but it couldn’t have hurt to start elevated. So 1st turn he does the pulse wave trick, runs BP into hindering terrain and Taxis Ultron to kill Green Goblin for 7 clicks. I don’t hesitate to start in on his team and quickly taxi my electra up 8 with a vulture blocking LOS from Ultron, Taxi Herc on top of a building, and send Nightcrawler on a solo mission into the den of the steel devil. Without HSS, Nighty is useless. My only other option is to punch his Wasp, but then the outwit would become a problem. Also, if I hit BP, I will be in B2B with his Wasp behind Ultron thus giving him Vulture as the only target. I opt for this and hit BP out of outwit. I pass the turn and he starts his. He thinks for a bit then decides to breakaway with wasp. This is a critical play. If he fails breakaway, he pushes Wasp and is stuck with Ultron to either push him to kill my Vulture or rest. He rolls a 4. He turns Ultron around, perplexes him up and takes a pot shot at Nightcrawler for 7. He hits and I roll Supersenses. Again a critical roll. I roll a 2. :cry: Nightcrawler goes down but he is pushed with Ultron and Wasp. He moves a con artist or two and passes the turn. I rush up with Herc and pound Ultron for 2 (after invulnerability) and push taxi my Electra into B2B with Ultron. Not having free moves really hurt me here. But such is my team. On his turn he sees that Ultron is in trouble and uses Blizzard’s running shot + perplexed damage to hit my Hercules for 5. Ugh. He moves another Con Artist or two and rests Ultron/Wasp. My turn I use Electra to BCF Ultron and roll a 4! He’s on his last click or two but I know that the battle is in his favor. On his turn he pushes Ultron to kill Elektra and Uses Wasp to kill Hercules. On my turn I use a Vulture to put Ultron on his last click. He doesn’t realize this and pushes him to death next turn. It’s now Vulturex2 + Paramedic x 2 vs Blizzard, Wasp, Black Panther and 6 con artists. Somehow I kill the Wasp (thanks to him pushing her a lot) and he cleans up the rest. Did I play my best? Probably not. Namely, I should have gone after blizzard instead of BP with Nightcrawler. The range of 8 + running shot made him a threat (with the 6 perplexers). Could I have played better? Maybe. Probably actually but hindsight is 20/20. Is his team THAT good? No. But 6 con artists will do wonders to a team’s win percentage. I know that even if I had played flawlessly, him going first was the doom of me. Doing 7 damage with a great deal of accuracy is insane. Had I played my other team I may have done better but but it probably would have been a bloodbath anyways. Double EE from 16 away would have cleaned my clock. Very frustrated about being cheesed to death, I go have a smoke.

Round 3 I play a really cool dude and we tussle it out pretty well. One of the best HC games I have played ever. He had:

LE Wolverine
U Green Goblin
V Bullseye
U Sauron
R Con Artist
V Con Artist
E Paramedic
R Vulture

He comes out by positioning himself on top of a building within charging BCF range of Sauron/Wolverine. I play a little too aggressive at the beginning of this game and I perplex Herc’s damage up to 5 and clock his Bullseye which he retreat’s with next turn (thanks to a successful breakaway). He eventually Taxicharges to the top of the building with Wolverine and Sauron to very devastating effect leaving me without a Hercules a turn later. The game progresses in his favor with him healing and regenerating and stealing energy to great effect. Sauron must have taken at least 12-15 clicks in that game. Eventually, I calm down a bit, play a little more conservative and with the help of some good dice rolls, the game balances out a bit. It comes down to Nightcrawler, Green Goblin and 2 medics (Nighty has pushed once or twice but GG is fresh) on my side vs Green Goblin (on his first non perplex click), Sauron (pushed once or twice) and 2 Con Artists on his. He gets first crack at my Green Goblin and crit misses! I return the favor and crit miss too! GG doesn’t want to hurt his brother. Nightcrawler takes out Sauron after SS several times against BCF. My GG gets the first hit and almost kills his. Soon after I am able to mop up the mess. This game was incredible. We shake hands and I secretly wish all games were like this – win or lose. Although winning it was nice.

The winner: Captain Con Artist ;) got 1st place after utterly creaming his opponent in round 3. They did something different from last time and let the winner pick his prize from Mystique LE and Ninja LE (Ranged). He chose Raven Darkholme. The other prize, an Electra LE, went to Fellowship: this dude who made a to-scale building that sits over a building on the 1st Marvel map outdoors and is amazingly cool. He is also a really cool guy who has played the same Brotherhood Team for who knows how long.

Start Rant:

The problem I have with the guy in round two is that now everyone at this place will be playing Con Artist or FL. Why bring a knife to a gunfight? If I show up to a place and see everyone is playing nice, why be the one to taint the batch? Since everyone there was not used to cheesy teams, we were steamrolled. It’s our fault. But now this screws up the whole equation. His only goal was to come an win the LE. Who’s isn’t? I don’t know what’s wrong about what he did. Nothing really. It just irks me that this nice cheese-free environment has been corrupted. How many FL or Con artist teams next time? I’m bringing two teams next time. A new non Nightcrawler fun team I’ve been working on for a casual day of gaming and a tuned up killing machine without remorse and loaded with cheese. We’ll see which one I field. I’m sure I won’t be the only one.

Feedback? Questions? Flames? Have at me.

If anyone attended this tournament and sees this, please feel free to post your thoughts as well.

Eugene.

edlawdawg
05/20/2003, 19:08
I agree with your post. It's unfortunate that your local venue was corrupted. I think the proliferation of Con Artists encourages people to build super teams in which one or two main characters become Clix Gods thanks to perplexing. It is unfortunate and I don't build those types of teams, I personally don't care about the LEs, its just something Wizkids developed. Hope you don't have to resort to that murder cheese team, but maybe doing so will teach that power player that he can't prey on the normal guys at your local venue. By the way, what state was this in?

onew0rd
05/20/2003, 23:24
florida

Phil Dixon
05/21/2003, 08:01
If you're not prepared to play to win, you shouldn't expect to. It's as simple as that.

onew0rd
05/21/2003, 09:32
That's true Phil. Trite and callous but true. It's allowed so I have to deal with it.

Free Gamer
05/21/2003, 10:24
Eugene,

Let me begin by saying that was perhaps the most well-written and detailed post I've read here ay HCRealms. You're ability to recall the details of the rounds is impressive (that recall was no doubt enhanced by the strong emotions you were experiencing). I feel for you and anyone that has to face that type of opponent. I feel fortunate that I've not seen even one Con Artist fielded in any tournament that I've played in. There seems to be an unspoken agreement among the regulars not to utilize them. I personally intend never to use one, and am bothered by WizKids' decision to include this figure in the set, but that does not mean that someone won't use one or more against me.

The sad reality is that they helped your opponent -- and will help others -- win. If that is a player's sole objective, he's going to play them...cheesey or not. Consider, however, that one player's cheese is another's beau fromage. While others would no doubt disagree, I consider your first team (the one you did not field) to be cheesey. Doubling up on four figures seems to me to be every bit as much an attempt to win -- legally, but not very sportingly -- as fielding a half-dozen Con Artists. Even the double rookie Vultures in the team you ended up using could be considered suitable for aging, grating, and sprinkling on pasta.

Again, this is but one man's opinion, and if I was endeavoring to win at all costs -- or determined to beat an opponent who was -- I would consider using any combination of figures available to me. But, as it is, I haven't yet felt compelled to do so either by my own desires or my opponents tactics. I hope neither your venue nor mine become corrupted, and I look forward to reading future posts from you.

Good luck in your next tournament!

Frank

pujutu
05/21/2003, 10:31
Yep, That first round really blew. I hate it when I get paired up with someone I came to the tourney with. Aside from the fact that it reduces the chance of collectively bringing home an LE, you're not playing anybody new! Also, you have just as much right to play that same exact hooker team. You may as well flip a coin to see who wins, but you can still play it.

Munchoboy
05/21/2003, 10:56
While I agree with the overall truth of this statement, I wonder at the reason for its posting. Unless I missed something here, this rant was more to the subject of sportsmanship, a fun time with friends, and the such than someone complaining about losing. OnewOrd invited comments, flames, etc...but I would imagine something more to the subject would have been appropriate.

I must say that I find high-handed comments like this unnecessarily demeaning and in poor taste. Are we all to be impressed by this bit of obvious "wisdom"? Quite frankly it makes me shake my head when I see stuff like this on the board, especially when it doesn't address the point of the thread.

I am of a similar mind with onewOrd and Pujutu here; I like to play for fun first and foremost and encourage the same sort of camaraderie amongst my peers. To tell the truth, I have reached a point in my maturity where I would rather see everybody have a good time and lose than constantly field cheese to win. I don't hold it against people when they play to win but I am sad when the friendly "gaming" culture of a group is subjected to stuff like this.

But hey, that's just me.

-MB

mrclarkjkent
05/21/2003, 11:09
Hey Eugene. Capt Bad Roller here. I was first to fall victim to the cheese Ultron team. I have to admit, I didn't even want to play it. Games are meant to be enjoyed. I don't buy a video game like X2: Wolverine's Revenge over 123 Sesame Street because I know I won't enjoy 123 Sesame Street. Same for heroclix. I play because I enjoy playing inventive, imaginative teams. Not teams that come with 9 damage with 12 attacks. Could I have made a team to beat that Ultron team? Yes. But I didn't know he was going to show up.
Round 1 is 0-1

Round two, I played Eugene's cousin. I was running R Bl Panther, R Inv Girl, R Destiny, V Mystique, U Deathbrid, U Shadowcat, V Psylocke, and a V Paramedic. He was running V Doombot, R Vulture, U Wasp, V Doc Oct, V Paramedic, U Wolvering, E Taskmaster. He I had managed to make a stealthed wall of 18 defense consisting of outwit, perplex, and PC. He decided to charge the room I was coming out of with Taskmaster and Doc Oct being taxi'ed by a wasp and vulture. WIth a couple of bad b/c/f I quickly diced his team up with my perplex range and enhancement Mystique, running shot with Deathbird, and a 4 b/c/f. Taskmaster Masterminded damage to Wasp to KO her in his 3 or 4th turn. I then healed up my Black Panther to outwit Mastermind and finish Taskmaster off. After that, his team fell rather quickly. After 2 rounds 1-1.

Round 3. Mike vs Jack. This was bascially back and forth killing of characters.I took out a Sauron, a con artist, and a few other characters I can't remember. In the end I had Psylocke, Bl Panther, Destiny, and A medic. He finished Psylocke and Panther, but thankfully I lasted an amazing 7 more rounds with Destiny and a paramedic. The medic ran for cover while Destiny got a whopping 7-9 super senses rolls in a row. No lie. He was so pissed. We were the last two playing, and everyone got a kick out of the amazing SS rolls thanks to PC. Eugene, I am going to miss you against the DC tournament. I am more a DC player myself. So if you ever pick up on it, I look forward to playing you.

Phil Dixon
05/21/2003, 12:39
Originally posted by Munchoboy
I must say that I find high-handed comments like this unnecessarily demeaning and in poor taste. Are we all to be impressed by this bit of obvious "wisdom"? Quite frankly it makes me shake my head when I see stuff like this on the board, especially when it doesn't address the point of the thread. Tough. You don't like it? I don't care. If this is so obvious, how come so many people just don't get it?

No offense to Oneword, because he admits himself this is just something he has to deal with, but the original post was full of derogatory terms like "power gamer", "corrupted", "cheese" and even "evil".

The fact is, it was a tournament, and this guy Dave didn't break any rules. He just played to win, and was probably at least as disappointed as anybody else at the poor standard of opposition he had to face. There's no call to talk about him like he's Dr Doom.

Munchoboy
05/21/2003, 12:58
You just don't get it Phil. But obviously, you're a tough guy so I guess I'll have to respect that.

-MB

onew0rd
05/21/2003, 13:30
Hold your horses Phil. I may have used the words "evil" or "corrupted" but I don't think Dave or anyone who plays Heroclix to win is "Evil" or "Corrupted". Not in the same sense you mean anyways. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Dave knows I don't think he's "evil" or "corrupted". Was his team evil? #### right it was! In heroclix terms, that is. And again, I'm pretty sure he'd agree. We've chatted several times, talked about getting together to play on the side and generally speaking, he's a nice standup dude in my book. I was just criticizing the state of the game in general from my personal perspective. You totally took those words out of context. Is Double FL Double Wasp evil (in Heroclix terms)??? #### right. But it would be a taut stretch to say some plastic figures or the tactics used when playing a game with said figures was evil. (Unless of course you were melting them and pouring the scalding plastic on someone's eyeballs) I regret not using more "toned down" terms to describe my experience, but it should be rather clear that when I say "killed his men" or "steamrolled us" I wasn't referring to homicidal acts, I was referring to losing badly at heroclix the game. Was it fair? Depends what perspective.
And not to be snide, but if you don't care then why post? Contrary to what you might think, I really see your side and in a sense, agree with your notions. But you're remarks are caustic whether you care or not.

thejew
05/21/2003, 14:02
couldn't disagree with you more. the simple inclusion of a mindcontroller on your team would turn the game around for you. get in range and MC his hooker activator, and he'll have 70 or so useless points on the board.

all teams have a weakness. yours was that it wasn't well balanced to deal with all incoming threats. his was that it was a one trick pony (that, again, didn't face anything that didn't like getting a pony ride).

my advice? dump the goblin and E paramedic and add in a U moondragon.

but hey...that's just me. you want to complain about it rather than find a solution for next time, go right on ahead.

onew0rd
05/21/2003, 15:16
thejew, IF I would have gone first, I could have just flown my NC over and HS attacked and bopped his Blizzard in the head. BUT since I didn't that wasn't an option. MC or not. As for MC, Unless I have 3 fliers AND Moondragon, I will not be within range for 2 turns. I am relying on a SS roll for Moondragon or she dies or if he's smart he could just kill her taxi. So this isn't really an option.

BTW, why do you say my team is imbalanced? Please tell me a good way to deal with 7 damage from 12 squares away before I take my turn. I'd love to see what can.

Is MC a MUST have? I don't think so, but you suggest that it is and let's go with that idea for a moment. If what you are suggesting is true, isn't this a sign that Ultron Con Artist teams are too powerful, being that only a team with Moondragon (or other high AV, range MCer) can beat it with consistency?

And the term one-trick pony seems inadequate here. If my team's one trick was to deal up to 9 damage from 10 away with a 12 attack, I'll take it.

And I am going to find a solution for next time. :grin: But if you want to complain about me complaining go right ahead.

CaptainCarl
05/21/2003, 15:35
when you make those 2 teams field the cheezy one:grin:

i have never fielded a cheezy team but ive been playing clicks for a long time now and its time to experience something new

with this new rulin with fig numbers im goin to play an all spiderman team clone style

but i also want to field a cheezy team and that ultron team sound interesting im goin to have to copy it and see how it plays out in a tourney of course never in a fun game;)

doin it just for diversities sake ye thats it diversities sake

thecaptain:cool:

Phil Dixon
05/22/2003, 05:39
Originally posted by onew0rd
Hold your horses Phil. I may have used the words "evil" or "corrupted" but I don't think Dave or anyone who plays Heroclix to win is "Evil" or "Corrupted". I know that, man. I only quoted those for emphasis. The words I really object to are "cheese" and "power gamer". Those expressions really get my back up.

Shellhead
05/22/2003, 18:00
I have struggled with this as well. One of our home rules is that you can't double ANY figures, even grunts like the Con Artist. That would eliminate the problem. SIX Con Artists? That's crazy! Not illegal, but very cheesy. Ah well.
Things like this are the reason why I don't do tournaments.

raphael76
05/22/2003, 18:38
I think that the real problem here is motivation. I don't think "cheese" and "power gamer" are necessarily inaccurate or inappropriate terms. It just depends on what perspective you are looking at. A lot of folks tend to look at the game from a perspective of "what kind of team can I put together that will be fun to play, and still be good", as opposed to "what kind of team can I put together to win every game with". A lot of people argue that since it is within the rules to make teams like this, then nothing else matters, and you shouldn't be critical. and the same could be said for a game like D&D, or Vampire, or something similar. Is it perfectly within the rules to roll up a chaotic good paladin who can cast spells like a priest and do umpteen dozen other things, sure. Does it hold with the spirit of the game, or make sense? Nope. and that is the problem a lot of people have with so-called cheese teams. Yes you are perfectly within the rules of the game to make these teams, but does the team you've made make sense, or at the least hold true to the spirit of the game, which is "re-enact your favorite battles from the pages of the worlds most popular comics" (or something like that)? Not really. And much like "power-gamers", it becomes frustrating when a person takes a loop-hole in the rules and exploits it like a madman in order to win all the team.

Its like the Batman Ally/Minions of Doom combo that plagued my shop for the longest time until we split marvel and dc. Every week, someone was bring a E Ultron with about 3-4 Doombots, and then parking R Robin in the back, never doing anything with him, put using his team ability to give everyone else stealth. Now, can you do this within the rules? Yes you can. But it just doesn't really hold to the spirit of the game and even more so, it doesn't make sense why Robin would be with that squad anyway. At least if he was paired up with a Spider-man ally or something I could understand, but the MoD? And don't get me wrong here either, I'm not saying you always have to have good guys on one side and bad guys on the other, but at least having a theme or an idea beyond rules exploitation is what makes the game both fun and interesting.

I'm with you Oneword, cheese is bad. However, I would suggest that you not stoop to his level and create another cheese team. I would say build a good team that makes sense but that can still take out the Ultron-Ho team. For example, a team with all stealthy folks (Sabertooth, Mystique, etc) would work well.

Oh, and Phil, this wasn't meant as an attack on you or your comments. I think its just a difference of opinion and views on Heroclix and gaming in general. Much respect to your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

Phil Dixon
05/23/2003, 06:36
Originally posted by raphael76
A lot of people argue that since it is within the rules to make teams like this, then nothing else matters, and you shouldn't be critical. and the same could be said for a game like D&D, or Vampire, or something similar. Apples and oranges here. D&D is a collaborative effort, while HeroClix, especially at a tournament, is competitive. I'm not saying a win-at-all-costs is appropriate in a friendly game, and there are types of behaviour which, even though technically legal, I would frown on - I understand that some people have been known to say, "You didn't switch off Firelord's Energy Explosion, therefore he only does one click," for example. That's pedantry, and very poor sportsmanship.

But calling "cheese" because your opponent built a better team than you did is also poor sportsmanship, bordering on gamesmanship.

foilball
06/07/2003, 04:41
i don't know what the big deal is? that ultron team is pretty ####py. now my ultron team, that is an unstoppable monster.

also, at my venue, most players would consider using two paramedics chessier than using two firelords.

kettle: waaaaaah! the pot is calling me names again!


just my opinion though. play on.

billy

Vennom
06/07/2003, 05:11
I played against a team similar to this at my last tournament. The team was U Goblin, Blaastar, I think 4 cons, bliz, BP, and a medic.

I was fortunate enough to keep my Sauron and Shadowcat alive long enough to get it set up that I could taxi Sauron in, MC his blizzard to running shot back into his cons and medic (who had already pushed once, I was able to knock her out of support), and pulse wave them all out of their usefull clicks. I still lost the game (his only kill was my Silver Samurai, who tried to sneak in and deal with the cons early), I never killed any of his figs (had Goblin and Blaastar on their last clicks though), but it was worth it just to see his jaw drop as I made his whole strategy go down the tubes:p