DC Preview Stats [Archive] - HeroClix Realms

Comte

05/26/2003, 15:22

Wow that dark superman is so freakin scary I can't wait to get one hand have him rip savage hulk new orifices. This guy is most definatly what vet. Superman should of been.

Catgirl/Batgirl: Both oif these kinda made me sad. Alright so they are cheap permastealth chars but thier lack of high attack valures really hurts them both. I hate saything that too but when I pull out somehting with a shiney silver band I don't want to be saying...this could of been Dark Supers I want to be happy no matter what.

Bizzaro: Somehow I think the invulnerability is a typo either way I think he is highly usable. That superman enemy team thing is great for him because he could be draging aorund one of thouse medics. Not only will the medic keep him health but the additional outwit will be very useful.

In mixed games green lantern is gonna be increadbly scary. Thouse B/C/F stealth teams can be easly made up of a lot of cheap figgures with high attack vaule...logan, ic electra, blade, taskmaster...they are all fairly cheap and can do horrible amounts of things to people who get in their way. Combined with his 12 movement it is a scary thought. Even worse is the rookie quicksilver whirrlewind thing where you use thouse two figs to tie up any threats while the rest of the team moves fowards. Scary stuff and it just gets worse with the rookie version. His attack vaule may be low...but you can also taxi up to 6 figs with im...imsure one of thouse figs can hammer someone pretty hard and then greenlantern can be the perfect mop up peice.

Wonderwoman rocks!

As for the rest...ehh. Starfire looks neat but I like Dc because it encourages us to use big stompy bruiser people. Introducing shooty monkeys makes me kinda sad. HOwever she is a great figgure and will be awsome for green lantern turrents.

jjs-thump

05/26/2003, 15:22

They all look great!!!! very very happy with Superman, Wonder woman,starfire,GL,bizarro, This set is going to ROCK!!!!!! and this set should be able to hang with Marvel. GL is good be hard to hit Marvel but should be just fine for DC only when it comes to attacking.

MarkFinn

05/26/2003, 15:27

My only (and it's minor, I suppose) disappointment is the lack of a JSA Wonder Woman in either her R or E form. There's certainly a precedent for it.
Stat wise, I have no complaints.

I'm thrilled that Batgirl has incap and not Psychic Blast, as it cuts way down on the fanboy whining and the PAC Lawyers.

EmperorNorton

05/26/2003, 15:41

Okay, have to check my bank account. Gotta order a case.
Wonder Woman is great, and I want Supes (who doesn't?).
Batgirl looks pretty bad, though. But it doesn't really matter, I still want her.

EmperorNorton

Manchine

05/26/2003, 15:50

Originally posted by EmperorNorton
and I want Supes (who doesn't?).

I dont want him I want Bizzaro!!!

:p :laugh: :p :cool:

esfoad

05/26/2003, 15:51

Hey, EVERYTHING looks outstanding so far. Everything EXCEPT...

BATGIRL

What happened? There's absolutely nothing special about her. No reason to play her at all aside from those of us who love the character. Where's her specialty? NOTHING.

Low speed.
Low attack.
Low defense (and no defensive powers)
Two damage at one point is fine.... BUT NO CCE?!

WHY?!!!?

I can't even begin to state how totally disappointed I am with these stats. Of all figs, why drop the ball on her.

Again, I'm not usually one to complain about a specifica figure, but I'm utterly disappointed with Batgirl's stats.

*logs off shaking head in disbelief*

KaraZorEl

05/26/2003, 15:51

OMG! Superman is Awesome. Wonder Woman is great and
Green Lantern I'm not crazy about the 9 attack, but still
I LOVE IT! But Finaly a Superman worth throwing into melee
and Wonder Woman with Impervious and 17 defence WOW.
I'm happy to see a few thing kicked up a notch and I can't
believe Bizzaro has invulnerability I really didn't see that
coming. OVerall I like them.

daedalus25

05/26/2003, 15:53

Originally posted by MarkFinn
I'm thrilled that Batgirl has incap and not Psychic Blast, as it cuts way down on the fanboy whining and the PAC Lawyers.

Ha! That is definitely not going to cut down on the "whining". Batgirl was so badly butchered that the only explanation is they were thinking of Barbara Gordon when they made the dial.

But the heavy hitters definitely look fantastic. I'm thrilled that Wonder Woman was done right. Superman is a beast! I can see now that many players are going to be pairing him up with a cheap taxi in the games to come.

They did the right thing in releasing stats information. It's made me want this set all the more!

KaraZorEl

05/26/2003, 15:53

Bizarro is 200 points! Wow that must be a joke of some sort
:)

thejew

05/26/2003, 15:54

yeah, vet starfire is gonna rock...especially if two get teamed with a rook GL....

who ever it was said that they think the first DC set won't see much action after this, gotta disagree....i mean, it's not like they're seeing much action now, right? batman, nightwing, steel, flash, darkseid are about it, aren't they?

but yeah, i'm impressed. wondering what the LE cobblepots will look like....

Baron_Thing

05/26/2003, 15:54

My first reaction was surprise at how little Willpower GL has. I would have liked to have seen it and deflection flip-flopped in terms of the number of clix with each power . . . Beyond that, he looks fairly passable.
I think everything that needs to be said about Apoco-Supes and WW has been said, but I'd like to give much love to Penguin! So far, he's my favorite piece in the set, and I've got a spot reserved for him on my Bat Enemy team.

Manchine

05/26/2003, 15:55

Points at Batgirl laughs.

In Best Beavis and Butthead Voice

"And she's a..... ninja hahahaha"

daedalus25

05/26/2003, 15:55

Why would Wonder Woman be on the JSA? The only "Wonder Woman" I know on the JSA was Hippolyta. But this Wonder Woman is clearly Diana. Post-Crisis history of course.

scowlingone

05/26/2003, 15:59

Originally posted by thejew
who ever it was said that they think the first DC set won't see much action after this, gotta disagree....i mean, it's not like they're seeing much action now, right? batman, nightwing, steel, flash, darkseid are about it, aren't they?

That was me.

Locally, I see a lot of T.O. Morrow, Booster Gold, Bane, Man-Bat, Key, Hawk, Dove, Grundy, Huntress, Robin, Catwoman (REV and U), Weather Wizard and Hawkman, too.

But the figs in the new set make many of these (and many of the ones you listed) superfluous.

Hence, we won't see much of the old set played anymore.

KaraZorEl

05/26/2003, 16:00

Darn Bizzaro suffers from being like Superman plus having that outragious team ability. I CAN'T WAIT!

jkc

05/26/2003, 16:06

Wow. I was afraid they'd pants Batgirl, but I never would have dreamed it would be that bad. In the comics, she doesn't even do anything that would resemble incapacitate. Call me a whiner. I'm really pissed about this.

Redleg

05/26/2003, 16:07

Isn't Bizzaro dumber than dirt? But if he's standing next to an Intergang punk he becomes suddenly super intelligent?

jjs-thump

05/26/2003, 16:10

LOL, thats funny Redleg :)

MarkFinn

05/26/2003, 16:13

Originally posted by daedalus25
Ha! That is definitely not going to cut down on the "whining". Batgirl was so badly butchered that the only explanation is they were thinking of Barbara Gordon when they made the dial.

Of course, you're quite right. Let me rephrase.

With the exception of the whiners who think Batgirl's stats were so badly butchered that the only explanation was that they were thinking of Barbara Gordon when they made the dial, Batgirl having incap should cut way down on the fanboy whining and the PAC Lawyers.

I beg your pardon.

Jay10

05/26/2003, 16:13

If the rumors about a Lexcorp Battlesuit (with flying and the Superman Enemy team ability) are true, Bizzaro's team ability works well. Just taxie him with the Battlesuit and he'll gain Outwit, and unlike Elseworlds Superman, he can use other powers (such as Charge, Superstrength, and the previously mentioned Outwit) without having his damage reduced.

Brainiac 16

05/26/2003, 16:17

A few more thoughts:

1. DC seems to be continuing its trend of less than spectacular uniques.

2. Compare Unique Batgirl to V Robin, and have a good laugh...followed by a good cry.

3. Almost all bat-villains have the same powers.

esfoad

05/26/2003, 16:23

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Of course, you're quite right. Let me rephrase.

With the exception of the whiners who think Batgirl's stats were so badly butchered that the only explanation was that they were thinking of Barbara Gordon when they made the dial, Batgirl having incap should cut way down on the fanboy whining and the PAC Lawyers.

I beg your pardon.

That's uncalled for.

Opinions about Batgirl will most likely fall into one of two camps. Either:
A) You don't follow the character enough to know why her fans will be so legitimately upset
or
B) You're pissed off about her stats (because you're familiar with her abilities)

Taking your response at face value, I'll file it under Camp A unless you show otherwise. I'm not attacking you personally. I'm just truely upset about her dial. It's even worse than I expected IF they "shorted her" like they have some other characters (which they did).

On second thought, call me a whiner if you must. It won't change my stance or the facts on how much she was robbed.

Phantom

05/26/2003, 16:24

Wonder Woman and She-Hulk: WW has the benefit of flight, Impervious, and more damage in close-combat at the start of her dial. She-Hulk wins out in longevity (keeps damage reduction longer), and better and longer-lasting speed powers (Leap/Climb means always getting to a medic when you need it). Shulkie also has the benefit of lower defense at the end of the dial, making her easier to heal.

Superman: No comparisons! This thing terrify people if he shows up in a sealed tournament! Especially since it doesn't look like Outwit or Psychic Blast will be as common in this one as they were in IC. If your opponent has him, pray you have Deathstroke in your army.

Green Lantern: The rookie is probably underpriced, but the Vet is underwhelming. 17 defense at range (15 up close), no damage reduction, and a horrible starting AV for a 140+ point fig. He'll be decent enough in high-point games, where he'll be a follow-up taxi for the OTHER big figs in your army, but on his own he's really not much of a threat.

Penguin: The Vet is probably the most useful, providing that low-cost Batman Enemy team with some leadership to make use of their numbers by boosting their available actions. But all of them are decent enough for the cost.

Poison Ivy: Her low attack is annoying, but she can be useful in providing a hidden human shield for Bane, while sharing his attack.

esfoad

05/26/2003, 16:29

Originally posted by Brainiac 16
2. Compare Unique Batgirl to V Robin, and have a good laugh...followed by a good cry.

Ack! That was uncalled for too (for different reasons ;) )!

The truth hurts. Even more than an attack from CJ's Batgirl.

Manchine

05/26/2003, 16:38

As for Bat Girl. At least she is better then having Psychic Blast. Sure I think she should of been better in the attack and defense but sorry she's not bad.

skyounkin

05/26/2003, 16:38

The big thing that bugs me is that wonder woman has no ranged attacks how stupid is that?

Redleg

05/26/2003, 16:42

Originally posted by Brainiac 16

3. Almost all bat-villains have the same powers.

Hey the Dark Knight's Heroclix representation is very...uninspiring.

He needs to have similar wimpy villains to beat up on. That's the real reason Gotham is safe...

Manchine

05/26/2003, 16:44

Originally posted by Redleg
Hey the Dark Knight's Heroclix representation is very...uninspiring.

He needs to have similar wimpy villains to beat up on. That's the real reason Gotham is safe...

Or very stupid villians for the most part.

EmperorNorton

05/26/2003, 17:00

Don't you diss Batman or I'll start crying...

EmperorNorton :confused:

Psylockeslover

05/26/2003, 17:08

I'm not much of a DC fan,(no flaming please) and nothing in HT really made me want to buy them.

However, these guys look like they can hold thier own in a mixed environment. I might just be tempted to pick them up.....

dmac7979

05/26/2003, 17:26

Two uniques I hope I dont get in my case of CJ: Batgirl and Catgirl. Or at least doubles of.

JoeyTheButt

05/26/2003, 17:29

yeah, it looks like there are gonna be some uniques you get and say "AWESOME!!!!!" and there are a few others that just blow ### and you say "I wish I had just bought a CT pack and gotten an other rookie yellowjacket"

clixhunter

05/26/2003, 17:31

i've never thought uniques were supposed to be awe inspiring. just that they captured the essence of a character at a given point in time. so batgirl and catgirl are fine....just look at ic's cyclops and capt america....no homerun hitters there...but still playable and they do capture the essence.
lets not cry over them not being made to our expectations...just enjoy the game for what it is....a game. (no flaming please)

matthe

05/26/2003, 18:08

The way we should view these new Uniques is "At least they aren't Parasite..."

Captain_Comet

05/26/2003, 18:24

Y'know on several point generators Bizzaro came out under
200 points. I guess you really have to love him to use the
big lug AND I DO AND I WILL!

GianSingir

05/26/2003, 18:47

I could be wrong, and I probably am... But, wasn't Wonder Womans point value alittle higher on her vet version earlier today? I thought it was 145 or something like that? Now it says 126... So, did they edit it? Like I said, I'm probably wrong, I looked at these first when I woke up today...

paladin72

05/26/2003, 18:49

Vet GL is not as bad as Iron Man because he costs over 40 points less.

Superman is just awesome.

Bizarro will be fun to play.

Wonder Woman will definately log some playing time.

The rest is just eeehhh. I'm like dmac there are definately two uniques I hope I don't get in my case.

secretwarrior

05/26/2003, 18:51

Hey my signiture is working against me! I'm gonna be kinda hard pressed to find good uses for that GL.

Bizarro is cool as is WW and Supes. But why the 3 clicks of thugness on Starfire?

esfoad

05/26/2003, 18:53

Originally posted by Manchine
As for Bat Girl. At least she is better then having Psychic Blast. Sure I think she should of been better in the attack and defense but sorry she's not bad.

Strip away her name, likeness, and team affiliation... and replace the name with 'Heroclix Figure X' and sure, she's "not bad" for 41 points. But as she is now she's an inexcusably horrible and downright incorrect representation of Cassanrda Cain's 'Batgirl'.

Again I can't stress enough how much I appreciate Heroclix and all of the hard work put into making it for us. But I'd really like to hear the dev team's explaination, defense, and attempts at justifying why they gave this Batgirl the dial we've seen. It's as though they knew nothing about her.

Another mentioned IC's Cyclopse and Captain America. While I understand where you're coming from, there's absolutely no reason why those misteps shouldn't be avoided by the fifth set of Clix.

Sorry guys. I'm not blasting any of you. I'm just extremely upset with this. Much more angry than I would have expected. My apologies.

Brainiac 16

05/26/2003, 19:04

GianSingir - good call on Wonder Woman's cost. She was at 145. She's even more appealing now!

LuckyJ

05/26/2003, 19:11

R Penguin: Trash.

E Penguin: Less trashy but still very trashlike.

V Penguin: Barely useable. If you can manage to Mastermind damage at some point then he's worth using.

R Ivy: Not worth the points.

E Ivy: Not worth the points.

V Ivy: Not worth the points, but much more playable than the others. If you do the movie team-up of Ivy and Bane then you've got something going.

R Starfire: Very impressive for a rookie. But since the points are spent on movement, powers, and damage, she won't see much play compared to the E and V since there's a small point difference between versions.

E Starfire: Too high points for the AV if you ask me. Good though. In mixed she'd be a killer with Storm.

V Starfire: One of the set's golden girls. Very usable. Very versatile. Will see loads of gameplay. Probably the set's Storm or Deathbird.

R WW: WOW! This fig in incredible! Only 71 points? Very obviously one of the set's headliners.

E WW: Well...she does everything U HT Superman does except she does it better and cheaper. Will also see lots of play.

V WW: This is like Doomsday with flight. She-Hulk who? Superman who? Only drawback is that she doesn't have any range. For the points I will probably play her over Super-Skrull in mixed games.

R Green Lantern: I'll try not to say "broken." But is anyone even a little worried about 10-movement phasing taxis that can carry an entire team of, say, Enhancers or Perplexers or BCFers? I'm going to reserve judgement on this one before I see it in action, but I would be lying if I didn't admit just a little concern about the point cost. But with no damage reduction, he'll drop like a freakin' rock.

E Green Lantern: Values are just too low to make him worthwhile. Not much health, no damage reducing superpowers, to low attack and defense for almost 100 points.

V Green Lantern: Great damage values. Great movement values. Horrible everything else. He'll easily be the set's Quasar.

U Bizarro: Ok...why did they even make this dial? What a waste of time! Did they just think, "Let's get V Wonder Woman, make her less usable, call her Bizarro and add 80 points to the cost." With V Wonder Woman and CJ Superman there is no logical reason any thinking being would waste their time on this hack of cr@p.

U Catgirl: Ummm...why? Just tell me why. Might be a good harasser, but annoyances don't win games, and for 35 points this harasser is just a waste of time.

U Batgirl: What a disappointment. Such an awesome sculpt and yet such a lame dial. She costs more than twice what Robin costs and yet she doesn't even get a 9 on attack? Might be somewhat worthwhile, but I'm not expecting much playtime out of her - at least not while Nightwing and Robin exist.

U Superman: Just the thought of playing this monster makes me want to cry. If you ask me, this is a perfect apology for the HT Supes. But I just can't wait for all the threads that will start saying, "SUPERMAN IS OVERPOWERED" or "SUPERMAN IS BROKED" or even "SUPPREMAN THE NU FRIELORDD?"

Just wait...it'll happen. Let's just say that I want Supes and WW on my team...and bad.

GianSingir

05/26/2003, 19:12

Originally posted by Brainiac 16
GianSingir - good call on Wonder Woman's cost. She was at 145. She's even more appealing now!

OK good, I wasn't imagining things... They must've gotten hers mixed up with ole Johnny's point cost... 126pts. is pretty sick, she'll definately be in my collection... And now if I could just get Linda Carter in a booster, I'd be the happiest guy ever!!!

bakija

05/26/2003, 19:12

Tylk wrote:
>>The rookie Green Lantern will likely get abused in high point games as an uber taxi, where you can spare the points. Aside from that though, he is Iron Man V2.0>>

GL's stats (well. other than his movement) are mostly irrelevant--he flies guys around. For 81 points, he is cheaper than three of the cheapest taxis available to DC (and cheaper than 3 E Wasps in Marvel, the cheapest "free move" taxi)--spend one action, move three guys, kill something a lot.

I like all of the preview figures--they are solid, seem to cost the correct amount, and look interesting--I like Batgirl and Catgirl, Bizzaro looks very solid for 200 points, Wonder Woman looks powerful but reasonable (she is a close range combatant afterall), and Dark Superman looks incredibly effective, yet pays for it appropriately.

The set looks very solid overall, but I'm still thinking that my first impressions of the Green Lantern team power will hold true (i.e. that it is really silly to allow a single character to taxi 8), especially considering how it looks likely that the designers are trying to change the taxi rules...

-Peter

The Corinthian

05/26/2003, 19:22

Is it just me or does Bizarro look like a pasty Henry Rollins?

jjs-thump

05/26/2003, 19:38

Bizarro and Parasite next to one and other getting outwit,then The big B carrys in Parasite Bizarro hits for four and outwiting something dropping Parasite next to them. your opp's turn you do they hit? what do they? if nothing poison kicks in and the beats begin. Look its a use for Parasite maybe?

MarkStewart

05/26/2003, 19:41

On the whole this set looks pretty good, I'm pleased. Wonder Woman is a major stand out, they really did her well. Green Lantern is designed to be a support piece in a high point game, and I'm looking forward to using him that way when I play the JLA. I see some complaining about Catgirl and I have to say I don't care for DK2, but she's an accurate representation of the character. Batgirl on the other hand is so poorly done I have to say I don't think they knew anything about the character. Where's the 11 or 12 attack? Where's the 17 or 18 defense? Where's the close combat expert? Where's the super senses? A really easy figure to do actually, so how did they mess it up so badly?

Marc Spector

05/26/2003, 19:41

The preview stats showed some real highs (wonder woman, Superman, and green lantern possibly) and lows (catgirl, batgirl,poison ivy, and penguin) but overall all it looks like a pretty solid set. Hopefully there will be some better uniques in the set than some of the uniques we've seen already

daedalus25

05/26/2003, 19:52

The more I think about it, the more I'm positive that the team responsible for making the dials knew nothing about Cassandra and assumed Batgirl meant Barbara Gordon. The dial fits ol' Barbara almost perfectly, being along the level of Robin but a lot smarter (hence the Outwit). Even when she was a young girl, years before becoming Batgirl, Cassandra was a deadly martial artist. Oh well... I guess the ol' saying, no use crying over spilled milk, is applicable here.

On the other hand the discovery of Vet. Wonder Woman's point value reduction is reason enough for me to be cheerful. Now to hope that Black Canary received some justice, being that she's also a top ranked martial artist. Though from what I hear, she and Lady Shiva also have "butchered Batgirl syndrome". =(

shadowfox

05/26/2003, 20:07

I think batgirl is really underskilled.
I you read batgirl in comics, you would know that she is an extremely good fighter. In this respects, I think that she should have at least one if not two close combat expert on her dial. The skulpt is awesome, but now looking at the posted dial, I am disappointed. I always have thought that she would have a close combat expert skill. Do you batgirl fans agree?

Captain_Comet

05/26/2003, 20:17

Is it just me or do the points given to characters seem to
have no ryhm or reason? Bizarro looks over, the new
Superman looks under, Vet. Wonder Woman is not only
under, but everyone has noted the sudden decrease in cost.
Anyone else care to comment on this?

drgnoftyr

05/26/2003, 20:27

for those who doubt bizzarro's invulnerbility wizkids has it on there site too and thats where these stats came from

scowlingone

05/26/2003, 20:30

My only real disappointment is with GL's defense.

15 Def with ED? No, no, no. That's not GL at all. The ring provides a protective aura against all forms of attack. Really, GL should be getting several up-front clicks of Impervious. Do the designers somehow think that GL has a vulnerability to close combat attacks or that when he's hit by an attack he's going to be hurt?

GL's defense should be comparable to Superman's or Wonder Woman's, and perhaps even higher. Frankly, I don't see any excuse for giving Wondy Impervious.

Captain_Comet

05/26/2003, 20:40

The LE Green Lantern will have Impervious. He's also gonna
be JLA so go figure.

bathawk

05/26/2003, 20:54

major dispointments are Green Lantern and Bizarro, Bizarro, while I really have no complaints (except for the lack of "freeze vision" (incapacitate) or fire breath (energy explosion), but Ican't see any justification for his cost at any point.

and is Green lanteren... ugh, if you really want to move hald your force in one clump, thats fine, the GL ability makes for the ultimate taxis (even though it's a sure set up for Energy explosion) and with phasing, your going to be able to place your figs anywhere on the map,
also he's the only DC fig with a 10 range and two lightning bolts, that puts him over Booster Gold and Weather Wizard

but other than that? everything is just so ....average a 17 defense ranged attacks? but no damage reducing powers? looks like Bane, Batman, and a whole host of CCE'rs and B/C/F's are going to see GL as an easy kill and with his point cost, do you really want you opponent to cash in on that many points because you wanted an uber-taxi?

and oh yeah, still pulling my hair out over batgirl

Captain_Comet

05/26/2003, 21:23

Well at least GL can taxi Invisible girl or Unique Spiderman
around fro a defence boost. Too bad the attack power seems
to suffer.

MarkFinn

05/26/2003, 21:46

Originally posted by esfoad
That's uncalled for.

Opinions about Batgirl will most likely fall into one of two camps. Either:
A) You don't follow the character enough to know why her fans will be so legitimately upset
or
B) You're pissed off about her stats (because you're familiar with her abilities)

Or, there's C: she's a rookie character. She's only been around in comics for a short time. Moreover, she's now holding back her killing instincts. I think her stats are fine.

Tell you what: if any of you don't want your Batgirl, or won't play that figure for some sort of complicated moral reason, PM me and I'll be happy to take one off of your hands. Me, I like the Bat-team and think she would make a cool addition to the team. I don't need her to be able to kick Batman's @ss, thanks all the same.

Gargantua

05/26/2003, 22:02

Don't have too much to say that hasn't already been said in abundance. I can't say I was impressed with Penguin or Ivy in any version. Starfire seemed okay. Wonder Woman looks very good indeed. Finally Attack Values in DC to compete with Marvel's ludicrously high numbers.

GL is interesting. Having that team ability for only 81 points could be very dangerous to game balance, but as others have observed, without damage reduction, he'll drop fast so that may balance it. That's a bit disappointing, though. I'd have liked to see a tougher, pricier GL. Maybe when we get Kyle or Hal...

As for the Uniques, Bizarro is passable. Kind of pricey, but the team ability could be useful. Catgirl looks okay for the points, though as other have said, if I pull her I'll be a bit disappointed that it wasn't someone else.

Then the low and high. I haven't read Batgirl, but from what I do know of her this figure is just so far off it isn't even funny. Only 8 AV? Maximum of 2 damage? File with all the other figures that were just done so differently than they really should have been. She's okay for her point value as a playable figure, but she's not Batgirl. Or as others said, she's more the Barbara Gordon Batgirl. I suppose I could pretend it's her.

When I got to Superman, my jaw just dropped. 7 damage with a 12 AV? 4 clicks of Impervious? And the ability to drop a motorcycle on Batman in a pinch? At least you have to pay for him. 223 ain't cheap, but boy howdy it looks like you'll be getting your money's worth. Even after 8 or 9 clicks of damage, he's still a force to be reckoned with. Golly.

Kneel_To_Zod

05/26/2003, 22:24

Originally posted by MarkFinn:
Or, there's C: she's a rookie character. She's only been around in comics for a short time. Moreover, she's now holding back her killing instincts. I think her stats are fine.

Yeah...but in every Batgirl comic she flies through multiple enemies with deadly precision and punishment. She abolishes her foes with ease. In just about every issue, the creative team emphasizes that she's DC's new badass...even on the level of their badass villain Shiva. Even holding back, she's portrayed as a whirlwind of wall-crushing beatdowns.

In this character's short history, we know that she's been trained by an assasin all her life. She had similar abilities to Marvel's Taskmaster. She trained with and later defeated Shiva. She took on Deathstroke who used a grenade to escape her. With that resume against some of DC's deadliest characters, why give her an 8 AV, 2 dmg, and incapacitate?

When I think incapacitate, I'm thinking batline or Spidey webs. Cassandra Cain Batgirl leaves her opponents sprawled on the floor with bruises and missing teeth. She's far more brutal than any Bat-family character...including the patriarch. She runs around Gotham punching holes in walls for goodness sakes. She totally does not match 2 max dmg and 8 av.

As others have said, I think the dial really does match Barbra Gordon as Batgirl much more. That Batgirl would more likely tie you up in a Batline and outwit you. The Cain Batgirl rips out throats and stops the heart of deadly assasins. I don't see why Heroclix would want to represent the kindest gentlest version of that character (which doesn't really even exist). The dial makes me think that Wizkids doesn't know much about the character at all. This isn't all that surprising. I still can't get over a Darkseid who has less range than Bullseye (who also can match the lord of Apokolips in damage). I really like my Marvel clix, but each time I look at a DC clix, I wonder what the heck is going on. DC needs to send some more comics over to the design teams...

Manchine

05/26/2003, 22:31

Thing is guys there's just as many guys in the Marvel Hero Klix that are just not right. Look at Psylocke, Apocaylpse, Magneto, Colossus's Defense, and so many others. They wanted to do something specific with this character and that what it comes down to.

zathras

05/26/2003, 22:49

well, all i can say after seeing these stats is i'm buying as much as i can.
superman will be mine

Kneel_To_Zod

05/26/2003, 22:49

Originally posted by Manchine:
Thing is guys there's just as many guys in the Marvel Hero Klix that are just not right. Look at Psylocke, Apocaylpse, Magneto, Colossus's Defense, and so many others. They wanted to do something specific with this character and that what it comes down to.

I get what you're saying, but those characters do come close. Well...Apoc got shafted badly. I kinda like the design notes of Psylocke. Colossus is perfectly reasonable. The guy wasn't all that durable. He was nearly killed by Riptide (I think that's his name) of the Marauders who shot ninja shurkiens at whirlwind forces at him. He was also knocked into human form by Wrecker's crowbar. Durabilitywise, I think Colossus should have been well below Hulk, Thing, Thor, etc.

What Wizkids did with those characters made some sense. They might not have been perfect. Iron Man's AV for example went south so quickly when he has computer aided targeting. Still, those characters generally made sense. Batgirl is pretty much 100% not the one in the comics. She rarely uses stealth (but I guess that had to give her Bat team). She storms through muliple opponents or smashes them badly, which I would think could be represented by flurry and CCE. She rarely uses throwing objects or batlines. She usually doesn't outwit anybody (just beats them down). The dial boggles me...

I Am The Game

05/26/2003, 22:49

The one thing people haven't mentioned is that surrounded by figures, it'll be tough to get a shot at Green Lantern.

Wonder Woman is going to be on every team from now on, she's too good to miss.

What are they going to do with the Penguin LE? It's the marquee winning prize, I hope it doesn't royally suck, or I'll never get people playing again. Now I've gotta worry about people throwing the marquee to avoid the Penguin, and get a shot at Oliver Queen instead. This set is starting to look like there are two types of pieces, the ones you play, and the ones you junk, with nothing in between. At least they're pretty...

Batman1983

05/26/2003, 23:06

Wow WW could kick Supes butt! for 1 (126) more point than R Superman (125) you get a tank to rival Doomsday (ok maybe not, but....)

V GL is amazing (defense aside he basically cost what Firelord should) hes like a catapult/hovercraft for 500 on up builds. For the 300 point tournies you'll see the R a lot.

U Bizarro is a King among Pions... he has Invulnerability???? :confused: ok... he 200 even though :)

U Batgirl = WTH I mean no Psycic Blast & late outwit...

U Superman... If Bizarro is King this guy is a demi god.

esfoad

05/26/2003, 23:10

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Or, there's C: she's a rookie character. She's only been around in comics for a short time. Moreover, she's now holding back her killing instincts. I think her stats are fine.

She's held back her killer instincts since No Man's Land and before. That's a main reason she's been able to remain in the Bat fam. As for the rest, Kneel_To_Zod has managed to nail it perfectly and has been able to provide a great response. Much more than I will be able to while still bitter over the dial.

We all have our ideal dials for our favorite characters, but many of them wouldn't be reasonable in the game field. Given that, I would have been happy with a spike in at least ONE skill/attribute of hers. Like many have said it's as though they were thinking about Barbara when they made the dial.

Now I can finally understand how many of you felt when voices your arguments about Spiderman's dial and other such characters not accurately portrayed on their dials.

Azrael0626

05/26/2003, 23:15

After seeing Batgirl's stats I am absolutely convinced that the people who come up with the powers and stats don't read comics. No CCE? No SS? An AV of 8? 5 clicks? A damage of 2? What the hell? You can pick up any 1 issue containing the new Batgirl and see that she deserves far more then what they gave her. If this were Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, then I would agree, but it's not.

Bluebeard

05/26/2003, 23:21

From the looks of it the stats for this set are definitally made to compete with Marvel. Also, it looks like too many of these figures are going to make a large number of the original DC figures obselete, with better stats for the same point cost in Cosmic Justice. That's a little dissapointing

esfoad

05/26/2003, 23:33

Originally posted by Azrael0626
After seeing Batgirl's stats I am absolutely convinced that the people who come up with the powers and stats don't read comics. No CCE? No SS? An AV of 8? 5 clicks? A damage of 2? What the hell? You can pick up any 1 issue containing the new Batgirl and see that she deserves far more then what they gave her. If this were Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, then I would agree, but it's not.

Which is part of the reason why I'm so floored. The rest of the previews look awesome.

Suprmanwannabe

05/26/2003, 23:53

all i can say is WOW..........i definitely cannot wait now.........BRING ON THE JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!

jkc

05/26/2003, 23:55

The Marvel figures (Mystique, Con Artist, Beast, Doc Samson) make a large number of DC figures obsolete (Harley, Plastic Man, almost anyone with perplex.

I'm still in denial about Batgirl's stats. There must be some mistake.

Ronanov

05/26/2003, 23:56

wonder woman is mighty better than shulkie! hah! :D can't wait to get her!

CarlosMucha

05/27/2003, 00:05

For me that Batgirl Stats is Barbara Gordon, I dont know wy the sculp is no Barbara!

esfoad

05/27/2003, 00:09

Originally posted by jkc
I'm still in denial about Batgirl's stats. There must be some mistake.

If they are (and I prey to the Clix gods they are), I'll be the first one to apologize, grovel, and otherwise humilate myself. Then any of you can line up and trash me all you want. It won't matter to me at that point if her dial is improved :o

MarkStewart

05/27/2003, 00:17

I don't think I've quite ever seen people so upset about a character's dial. People still complain about some figs, but everyone seems to really hate this Batgirl. Maybe they'll make another one for mail order :)

Terman8er

05/27/2003, 00:28

*jumps on bandwagon*

Batgirl needs to report WizKids to the police. She was ROBBED!

This girl should have started with a 12 AV and be the first DC clix to get an 18 in defense. And Super Senses as well.

To be honest I can 5 clicks of life...she is wisp of a girl after all.

But she hits everything she goes up against and is almost never hit by what she faces.

8 L/C
12 Incap
18 SS
1 CCE

And keep those abilities the whole dial. have her stats drop by one for every click (aside from her damage). A 4 range is all she needs as she hardly ever throws things. Incapacitate would be how she can hurt just about anyone.

For those of you that are shaking your head at those of us complaining...please pick up a couple of issues of Batgirl. And she has been out for over 2 years now...she is no rookie.

Now...I am drooling over getting that U Supes and any WW or Starfire. WOW!

Now...R GL...he may very well be on very team I make over 300 points.

Try to come up with 8 taxis that cost less than 81 combined. Yeah...R GL will be so abused.

Terman8er

05/27/2003, 00:35

Here...using the Excel formula that is running around the web I made a 40-44 point Batgirl. (Dang...Incapacitate is expensive)

8LC---7LC---6LC--5LC--4LC
12----11----10----9-----8 (nothing special)
18SS-17SS-16SS-15SS-14SS
1CCE-1CCE-1CCE-1CCE-1CCE

6 range 1 target Batman Team Ability

Average 42 points. Whats wrong with that?

jkc

05/27/2003, 00:42

Haha! See! The posted stats are a big joke! Terman8er has seen her real dial. Thanks T.

Regault

05/27/2003, 01:26

Okay, Batgirl is tangible proof that the guy who designs this game has never read DC in his life. They give her the run of the mill bat-sidekick abilities when she's wholly unique.

A: She shouldn't have Outwit at all. Her entire strategy in combat consists of hitting people until they drop.

B: She has never used smoke bombs in a single issue ever.

C: She has no Super Senses or CCE when the character is basically the definition of those powers in the DC universe.

I can tolerate Leap/Climb, even though Flurry would be much more appropriate.

Hopefully, there's a real Cassandra Cain in this set and this one's just the Huntress playing dressup.

esfoad

05/27/2003, 01:30

Originally posted by Regault
Okay, Batgirl is tangible proof that the guy who designs this game has never read DC in his life. They give her the run of the mill bat-sidekick abilities when she's wholly unique.

A: She shouldn't have Outwit at all. Her entire strategy in combat consists of hitting people until they drop.

B: She has never used smoke bombs in a single issue ever.

C: She has no Super Senses or CCE when the character is basically the definition of those powers in the DC universe.

I can tolerate Leap/Climb, even though Flurry would be much more appropriate.

Hopefully, there's a real Cassandra Cain in this set and this one's just the Huntress playing dressup.

Good points on and all, Regault. ANY chance it's not too late for Wizkids to fix her dial before print and distribution? Ala the Catgirl Hypersonic "typo" that was changed in her initial preview here?

*unclinches fists long enough to cross fingers*

scowlingone

05/27/2003, 01:32

Originally posted by esfoad
Good points on and all, Regault. ANY chance it's not too late for Wizkids to fix her dial before print and distribution?

No. They will have been boxing up figures for several weeks already, and producing bases for a couple of months before then.

So, with respect, drop it already.

esfoad

05/27/2003, 01:38

Originally posted by scowlingone
No. They will have been boxing up figures for several weeks already, and producing bases for a couple of months before then.

So, with respect, drop it already.

Very respectful indeed. Do you show the same respect to those still questioning IC's Spiderman dials?

PantherPriest

05/27/2003, 01:53

Perplex was designed for bat man enemeys and it fits every last one of them perfectly, except for maybe croc and bane. Ivy should've had it.

My biggest problem with this set is lack of creativity. Everybody is just really really bland. Everybody's really good; but there is nothing special about any of them.

I liked psychic blast, it was a creative way to show her power on the dial. And personally it was the best way to represent her powers. Does she "send a mental blast" at opponents? No, but the name is irrelevant. Does storm "behave in a misleading or unpredictable way to make her opponents less effective in combat?" no but she thinks of ways to weaken the enemy or make her and her teams blows harder. So pb is a range strike, big deal, she's in mid drop kick so she probably dropkicks somebody and then flips back to her spot. Give her damage of 3 and she's fine in cc too. With a cool sculpt she is a very unfourtunate case. suddenly not worth it.

But this means that I can continue on with finishing my sets without having to worry about CJ, besides a few figs.

Oh and John Stewart rocks, in the DC universe 16 is the average defense. He'll hit everything excepet wonderwoman and a few others.

Doctor Strange

05/27/2003, 01:56

I wonder what version of batman they are going to make

hmmm..

judging by batgirl... one can imagine that a "broken back batman" can be expected.. fresh from his battle with bane.

scowlingone

05/27/2003, 02:05

Originally posted by esfoad
Very respectful indeed. Do you show the same respect to those still questioning IC's Spiderman dials?

I've never sen any one Spider-complainer go on with a dozen messages in a single day.

Disrespectful would be if I said "ESFOAD, esfoad." So mellow out. It's only a frickin' game. You're not going to get what you want, ever (you know in your heart of hearts that there will not ever be a second Batgirl figure -- she's no Elektra, after all), so there's no point in complaining, is there?

Moving on is part of the mourning process.

Dalmatio69

05/27/2003, 02:05

Superman = God.
But i dont know about this, 7 damage? Followed up by a few clicks of 6 damage? This must make Hulk fans extremely jealous. Makes you wonder if this will raise the bar for heavy hitters, perhaps 5 damage will become more common.

Bizzaro at 200 points, nice.

I think the R Green Latern will be totally abused. At 81 points, 10 movement and phasing, even in a 300 point game all you need is him then some effective hitters (such as Aquaman, or perhaps Aquamen.)

Very dissapointed with Batgirl and Penguin. I didnt have alot of hope for Penguin anyways...but Batgirl i did.

WW looks great too.

I wasnt planning on buying much CJ. Now i am.

scowlingone

05/27/2003, 02:05

Originally posted by esfoad
Very respectful indeed. Do you show the same respect to those still questioning IC's Spiderman dials?

I've never seen any one Spider-complainer go on with a dozen messages in a single day.

Disrespectful would be if I said "ESFOAD, esfoad." So mellow out. It's only a frickin' game. You're not going to get what you want, ever (you know in your heart of hearts that there will not ever be a second Batgirl figure -- she's no Elektra, after all), so there's no point in complaining, is there?

Moving on is part of the mourning process.

Batman1983

05/27/2003, 02:05

Vampire batman & I must say Batgirl's stats floor me... I read the first 2 TPBs of hers & she isn't Barbara... I may have to get 2 of her so I can break one & put her on a modified dial or a R batman's, but I'd prefer to do a mod since Outwit is unappropriate to start... 18 def is extreme but she should be able to go toe to toe w/ Dove. For a Unique I have to ask why? & I'm not one to ever complain about clix dials... friendly suggestions I give, all out disbelief I keep to myself... mostly

PantherPriest

05/27/2003, 02:12

I am Hulk fan, and I am not jealous with superman. He has no range and will be the biggest target ever.

Hulk has no range yes, but he has leap climb. This way if random fast guy runs up to him so random shooty guy can shoot him, he can run right up to random shooty guy, lets say bullseye, and laugh in his puny masked face. Superman has to make breakaway and fly all the way over to the shooter to hurt him.

But that has nothing to do with anything, carry one with the bashing of the batgirl.

CaptainCarl

05/27/2003, 02:38

only problem with that is random fast guy is goin to get his you know what handed to him 7 click of damage is sick

i cant wait to use him in a 300 pt tourney long live supes
i mean evil supes:grin:

thecaptain

GianSingir

05/27/2003, 03:02

Originally posted by Batman1983
Vampire batman & I must say Batgirl's stats floor me... I read the first 2 TPBs of hers & she isn't Barbara... I may have to get 2 of her so I can break one & put her on a modified dial or a R batman's, but I'd prefer to do a mod since Outwit is unappropriate to start... 18 def is extreme but she should be able to go toe to toe w/ Dove. For a Unique I have to ask why? & I'm not one to ever complain about clix dials... friendly suggestions I give, all out disbelief I keep to myself... mostly

Where have you seen Vampire Batmans Stats? If I may ask?
Could you post them?

Batman1983

05/27/2003, 03:27

no stats sitting just reliable sources say hes a coming out in CJ

CarlosMucha

05/27/2003, 04:23

Va,pire Batman is a good idea, for me in the Only "Elselworls" for be a Hero Clix (Amen all Kingdom Come of course) beacause the Va,pire Batman have no 1 but 3 Books of History is bether than this Superman Darkseid (only 1 history in 3 parts).

My points is: we have a lot of characters without make already, why elselworlds, I know all the People like this Superman but,:

It;s no the "Real" Superman Power??? For me any "Real" Superman have HyperS Speed, any "real" Superman have 5 of Damage (if you like whith lidership and no CCE for me is ok) But Superman IS 5 damage any Superman.

I cant see the Rockie Superman, 2 damage? oh my god even Superboy must be 3 damage (he can broke a wall alwais).

For last: I hope more "normal" characterers and lest Elselworlds characteres.

What you think?

Kneel_To_Zod

05/27/2003, 04:24

For those who don't understand why Batgirl fans are upset at her dial, try checking this place out:

www.geocities.com/new_batgirl/ (http://www.geocities.com/new_batgirl/)

It has a section with summaries of each issue she's been in. Notice the emphasis on the concept that she's a wicked machine of martial arts destruction (i.e. not 8 AV, 2dmg, incapacitator). Also notice that she often tends to destroy groups of opponents and smash through things. She's like the Bat-family's mini-Hulk. I mean...Nightwing sent her to take on Deathstroke the Terminator!

The summaries aren't super detailed, but you can get the gist of things. Some things aren't mentioned. For example, in issue 1, after Batgirl spars with Batman, we actually see Batman spitting out blood. In issue 2, Batgirl actually kicks down a prison wall (meaning she should have 3 dmg or at least 1 dmg with CCE). She knocks out a metahuman in issue 3 with repeated blows to his throat and head. Oh, and her defense isn't too shabby either. In issue 21, she catches the multiple Shadowthief shurikens that are thrown at her. She later learns his secret alien fighting technique by watching him (ala Taskmaster) and hits him so hard that he needs to be revived. The issue after that, she goes around dodging sniper bullets to the head...

So I thought we'd at least get IC's Unique Elektra dial with CCE replacing BCF and Bat-Team replacing Stealth...

scowlingone

05/27/2003, 04:59

Originally posted by Kneel_To_Zod
For those who don't understand why Batgirl fans are upset at her dial, try checking this place out:

A better source is the Secret File on Batgirl at dccomics.com, where they write that she may be the greatest martial artist on the planet.

Don't get me wrong; I think JonL screwed the pooch on this one, but there's no point in complaining. It's a done deal.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 07:22

Wizkids does have one way out of this. The mention of No Man's Land reminded me that there was one other person who this sculpt could represent. Though it's highly unlikely that it was Wizkids' intent, this figure could be used to represent Huntress during her short period as Batgirl, as she also wore this costume.

All Wizkids needs to do is to add some flavor text saying this is Helena and give us our REAL Batgirl next expansion. Maybe if all the upset Batgirl fans were to email Wizkids, they could consider it.

Doctor Strange

05/27/2003, 09:15

Originally posted by scowlingone
A better source is the Secret File on Batgirl at dccomics.com, where they write that she may be the greatest martial artist on the planet.

Don't get me wrong; I think JonL screwed the pooch on this one, but there's no point in complaining. It's a done deal.

It might not really be a done deal. John L has shown the wisdom of listening to fans in the past, so it's not totally out of the question to see another version of batgirl in the future. In my opinion, she is as popular as elektra. Nothing is ever reallly hopeless.

Long before these stats came out, I made custom stats for this batgirl. They included a 10 attack value, CCE, Supersenses, Leap climb, outwit at the end of the dial and the batman team ability.

Doctor Strange

05/27/2003, 09:19

Originally posted by daedalus25
Wizkids does have one way out of this. The mention of No Man's Land reminded me that there was one other person who this sculpt could represent. Though it's highly unlikely that it was Wizkids' intent, this figure could be used to represent Huntress during her short period as Batgirl, as she also wore this costume.

All Wizkids needs to do is to add some flavor text saying this is Helena and give us our REAL Batgirl next expansion. Maybe if all the upset Batgirl fans were to email Wizkids, they could consider it.

Thats a really clever idea about the huntress.

Why don't we email wizkids? With a little bit of organization, it might go over really well.

mrclarkjkent

05/27/2003, 09:24

Being a hardcore Superman and Batgirl fan, I have to say I am going to have a love/hate relationship with CJ. For one, U Superman is a tank. 4 clicks of Impervious? Charge for 5 clicks? 12 AV? I'll gladly take his point cost at 223. Leaving plenty room for healers and a taxi. He is literally a one man army.

Now the disappointment comes with Batgirl. For Christ's sake, the girl can a) dodge bullets, b) hit Batman without him even seeing the punch coming, c) predict her opponent's move before they can do them, d) defeat an entire building of FBI agents without even breaking a sweat, the list goes on people. I for one will play her whenver I get the chance because I just love the character so much. But for God sake, if you show us a preview that says psychic blast, give us it. I know I didn't design these pieces, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Batgirl was not only misrepresented, but raped of alot of well deserved abilities. I hate Wizkids for doing this to Batgirl, but I love them for giving me such a wonderful Superman piece. Now excuse me, I must prepare my coffin for Batgirl, for she will fall many of times in future games. :cry: :disappoin :(

esfoad

05/27/2003, 09:42

scowlingone is right. I'm ranting, it's ugly, and it shows. I need to curb it.

As for the best (and appropriate) way of expressing our concerns about the Batgirl dial to WizKids, would organized email be the way to go as daedalus25 and others have suggested?

Looking over the rest of the previews this morning gave me goosebumps again. Wow! The unique Supes is amazing!

neonscholar

05/27/2003, 10:25

I love the Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and the Starfire. I don't like the fact that Batgirl doesn't get any Close Combat Expert. I figured if any one got it, it would be her.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 10:26

I'm not sure which email address is the best. I just sent a very long polite email to [email protected] . Is there a better email address to use?

Basically I commended them on the game and addressed our issues with Batgirl. I offered them the solutions that I've mentioned previously, letting this Batgirl be the Helena version and giving us a Cassandra version in a future expansion.

I think if we all contact the right people that something can be done. I'm not advocating spamming any email or anything of the sort. A single email with a list of names might be sufficient, but sometimes a single email is too easy to just ignore. A small number of emails might generate some attention. The trick is to get noticed but not be annoying. If they get the volume of emails daily that I do at work, then any single email will be hardly noticed. But when a few emails have the same subject heading, I tend to give it more attention. But that's just me.

If someone has a better idea or knows a better address to use than the general customer support box, I'm willing to try anything to fix Batgirl. ;)

KaraZorEl

05/27/2003, 10:39

You never know a Cassandra LE may be coming out.

mcyiddish

05/27/2003, 10:42

The guy wasn't all that durable. He was nearly killed by Riptide (I think that's his name) of the Marauders who shot ninja shurkiens at whirlwind forces at him. He was also knocked into human form by Wrecker's crowbar

not to mention splashed w/ acid and stabbed in the back by deathbird's (wooden?) spear. LAME!

KaraZorEl

05/27/2003, 10:45

Actualy I wanted to add. I had no idea so many people liked
the new Batgirl. Hardly anyone in my store gives her book
a second glance. The resolution to Bruce Wayne Murderer
gave half the clients a hissy fit because "you had to be a
batgirl reader to understand this" which is not true at all.
Anyhow I'm really pleased to see thi character carrying a
following somewhere. Too bad Supergirl didn't get as much
props now I'm stuck with the tastless 15 year old DNA rip off
Supergirl and a story about mind controlling coffee.

mrclarkjkent

05/27/2003, 10:47

I can deal with it, maybe even accept the fact of this heroclix Batgirl being the Huntress version from No Man's Land. I prey to God above that that we are experiencing a Catwoman scenerio like with the first DC set. Having Cassandra Cain as a R/E/V as the current Batgirl, all buffed up with Super Senses and CCE, just full of goodies, and then we have the Unique Version, abit off put, an earlier version, thus having weaker stats to represent Helena being Batgirl in No Man's Land, and having the r/e/v set as Cassandra Cain as the current Batgirl. If not, then I will be forever convienced that the made the stats for Batgirl for Huntress posing as her.

Manchine

05/27/2003, 10:48

You can defaintly tell the DC crowd doesnt know that much about Marvel. Riptide never almost killed. Riptide just injury him it was something else that almost killed him. Wreckers super strong does alot of damage with his crowbar. The javelin didnt hurt him the acid did.

PaladinKWA

05/27/2003, 11:02

As a judge I am not supposed to be critical of WizKids. So, as a judge let me say:

Superman is great! Thank you Wizkids!

Wonderwoman is fabulous! Thanks again!

Poison Ivy will be extremely useful! I will be happy to put her in my Batman enemy team in place of the Mad Hatter.

All of the sculpts look great!

Now as a player, let me say:

WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO BATGIRL?????

I can only hope that her dial was actually meant to have Psychic Blast where she has incapitate and the purple smoke cloud was supposed to be on her defense for will power.

If the dial is as represented, then I will just assume that this is the Huntress from No Man's Land and not Cassandra.

Robin could mop the floor with her...

sniff, sniff.....

olcottr

05/27/2003, 11:12

Wonder Woman rocks! Her Veteran will totally anchor a 300 pt team. I can't believe she's only 126 pts. It's like She-Hulk with flying and CCE.

matthe

05/27/2003, 11:22

I am reading all of this uproar over batgirl, and I agree that they did her injustice in this set. However, It seemed obvious to me that she was going to be little more than a support piece. With her, the way she is, my only real problem is the low AV. She should have at least a 9. Robin should not be able to kick her rear. Other than that, she didn't look too far from how I thought she would.

Actually, the thing that surprises me is the lack of commentation on Catgirl's dial, which again, is below robin's. Also, I think 2 damage on the first click would have been alright, but then again, I don't know. I had trouble getting through the first book of DKII and never finished it so I don't really know how powerful or weak she is in it.

Now, I know people are going to call me crazy, but I actually think that Penguin is playable. This is only because of his team though. What one needs to do is use the new GL, the rookie one of course, and fly up him, Vet Bane, and a few criminals, thugs, whatever. Then, you can hit for two damage with a ten attack, which is not too bad. If you set it up right, you could just have Bane in BTB contact with an opponent and have Penguin shoot at the taxi. With Mastermind, he could last long enough to deal quite a bit of damage. Also, with his vet version, he could also be used for really cheap Leadership, which is good since you'll use him witht that army of checkmate agents you've been waiting to pull on someone. Since GL's can actually carry all of them around, one could actually make a playable team relying almost entirely off of them, but anyways, away from my dreams of an overbearing checkmate army and back to the point. We should wait and see what comes up for these pieces and how they play out. I believe I'd use Poison Ivy the same way. I'd make sure she didn't get hit and keep her in a bush, next to Bane, and use her to harrass the taxis. Range of 4 hurts though, especially since she has such a low defense and no damage reduction.

Also, on Bizarro, I think he is one of those finese pieces that, if used right, can be wicked. I saw this happen with the U Joker against someone in a tourny. They are still in psychiatric treatment now that they have recovered from the shock.

matthe

05/27/2003, 11:26

Also, I kind of like both the Exp and Vet GLs. They have a good mix of powers, suffering from a low attack and no damage reduction. These aren't meant to be the centerpeices of you armies, just the uber support people. I think the Exp will see less play because Steel is fewer points and has the same amount of diversity on his dial. GL does have phasing thugh, and to free move with phasing could be a great addition to DC.

KaraZorEl

05/27/2003, 11:30

That rookie GL and the three Legion members are gonna see
a lot of play time from me. I love abusing the team powers
and I like just playing a nice all DC match too.

ducko5

05/27/2003, 11:37

ALL figures are playable. I play with them, and they don't explode or anything.

matthe

05/27/2003, 11:48

Wait until we get dynomite man. See what happens when you put him on his last click.

secretwarrior

05/27/2003, 12:51

These aren't meant to be the centerpeices of you armies, just the uber support people

Well that's why i for one am upset. GL was my first favorite DC character. Then I found out about all the rest of the Corp and thought what a novel idea and what diversity. I always wanted GL to be the leader of the team, he's supposed to have the power to take on anyone...ANYONE.

If I want a support GL, im sure they'll make ch'p or g'nort to be a support piece. Imagine a unique ch'p. 50 points, GL ability, 9 attack, one click of toughness, rce. That's a support piece.

Our first and only GL should be an attack/heavy hitter. I think he coulda sacrificed a few poins of movement for a better attack.

Clix776

05/27/2003, 12:55

Well, I was thinking that Superman would have 4 damage and CCE, with his potential 7 damage coming from a critical hit, and I was wrong. 5 damage with CCE. Whoa. I'm here for my serving of crow.

Here's hoping it didn't die from West Nile Virus...

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 13:10

Originally posted by secretwarrior
Well that's why i for one am upset. GL was my first favorite DC character. Then I found out about all the rest of the Corp and thought what a novel idea and what diversity. I always wanted GL to be the leader of the team, he's supposed to have the power to take on anyone...ANYONE...
Our first and only GL should be an attack/heavy hitter. I think he coulda sacrificed a few poins of movement for a better attack.

Stop and think about that for a minute: is that really what you want? 12 move, 12 attack, 18 defense, 4 damage? Phasing, telekinesis, ranged-combat expert, and willpower all down the dial?

I mean, if that's what you want, then there are dialmaker programs out there that will fit that bill. It's a, what, 300 or 400 point character, but you can do it. Make it yourself...and then see if anyone will play against it.

This game is limited by its simplicity. It uses small numbers to keep the math and the design easy to do. That means that there are limits to what can be represented in game terms. The ability to carry 8 figures free is a HUGE deal. I mean, really huge. You can position your entire team in the middle of the board on the first turn. That's earth-shaking. You can control the board! Now, as a game ability goes, that's a LOT more valuable than, say, any other team ability. It has to cost more, and/or it has to be limited so that very few pieces have that ability. That's why there's only one GL, and that's why he's built the way he is.

Think about how many people complain about how expensive characters like Superman and Batman are. The "X is overcosted" argument really means, I can't play him in a 200 point game. Some say that supes can't be played in a 300 point game. Hey, it's not like the developers don't listen. You keep the points down, people can play their favorite figure. You load them up, it unbalances the game and prices the figure out of the 300 point category.

Apply this logic to the Batgirl Unique, too. But don't think for a minute that everything is going to translate from comics to clix with nary a whisper. Well, unless you do it yourself... But at that point, your mods will become your world. 1000 point games loom on the horizon, because if you want to field the Justice League as they live in the comics, you've got to up the army size, too. I shudder to think how long that game would take to complete...

matthe

05/27/2003, 13:20

I've had a 1000 point game last for 9 hours one time...

secretwarrior

05/27/2003, 13:24

whoa dude read your quotation of me again.

i said SACRIFICE THE 12 MOVEMENT. Give him a move of like 9 (which will help him be less of a threat to fight) and raise his attack a coupla points to a starting 11 or 10. That's all i said. I feel it'd still be the same points.

All i'm saying is with a movement of twelve, attack of 9 and no toughness, they relegated this uber taxi to just that....a taxi. His numbers all kinda insure he'll be used for his GL ability. If he had better attack with toughness, i would care less about his Team because I'd use him as the heavy of my squad.

LuckyJ

05/27/2003, 13:41

About Batgirl....

I've never read this Batgirl before. I've never even heard of her before the fig's preview. So I'm completely unfamiliar with the whole rant about how she was underpowered.

So exactly how should she have been? Should she have been like Elektra from the Assassin series? Or like V Nightwing? Or like E White Queen (replace MC with Leap/Climb and Leadership with Outwit)?

Compare her to a Marvel character for me so I know how bad she was screwed over.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 13:44

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Apply this logic to the Batgirl Unique, too. But don't think for a minute that everything is going to translate from comics to clix with nary a whisper.

That logic has nothing to do with the dial of Batgirl. Unique Catwoman's dial would make a better Cassandra Cain. Cut the number of total clicks, give her some range and she'll be relatively cheap AND properly representative.

As it stands now, the only logical argument that can be made is that this is Helena. And that's exactly what I'll tell friends when they ask me who this Batgirl is. "That's Huntress when she spent a short time filling in for Batman."

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 14:00

Originally posted by secretwarrior
whoa dude read your quotation of me again.

i said SACRIFICE THE 12 MOVEMENT. Give him a move of like 9 (which will help him be less of a threat to fight) and raise his attack a coupla points to a starting 11 or 10. That's all i said. I feel it'd still be the same points.

All i'm saying is with a movement of twelve, attack of 9 and no toughness, they relegated this uber taxi to just that....a taxi. His numbers all kinda insure he'll be used for his GL ability. If he had better attack with toughness, i would care less about his Team because I'd use him as the heavy of my squad.

I understand you said to sacrifice the movement, but you also said that he should be the most powerful Clix ever. Look, I'm not picking on you, but a lot of people have been complaining about the DC stats not being representative of their favorite characters. I think the DC stats are fine, particularly when paired with team abilities. I have never played Superman in a game; I just don't want to commit the amount of points to a single figure. It'll be nice to be able to field Wonder Woman, GL, and others. Getting the figures out there and into play is what I'm interested in. Not in seeing these super expensive, godlike Clix that can't be played because they are too big...

And people don't think I'm a "Glass is half-full" kind of guy...

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 14:01

Originally posted by daedalus25
That logic has nothing to do with the dial of Batgirl. Unique Catwoman's dial would make a better Cassandra Cain. Cut the number of total clicks, give her some range and she'll be relatively cheap AND properly representative.

As it stands now, the only logical argument that can be made is that this is Helena. And that's exactly what I'll tell friends when they ask me who this Batgirl is. "That's Huntress when she spent a short time filling in for Batman."

Whatever floats your boat, man. Vayo con Dios.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 14:39

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Whatever floats your boat, man. Vayo con Dios.

Are you just playing Devil's Advocate? You're obviously not supporting the fans who are trying to improve the dials. In this thread you've consistently been against every notion that a dial wasn't properly made. Either you just live for controversy or you're a diehard Wizkids fanboy. I don't understand it at all. I can't see how anybody who knows the slightest about Cassandra Cain can feel this dial even REMOTELY represents her abilities.

If Wolverine was released with ranged combat expert and mind control and the fans were against it, would you still stand against them?

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 14:45

Addendum to the above: I apologize that the above post provides no point to the thread and seems nothing more than a personal attack, but when the previous post "Whatever floats your boat man" serves no purpose to this thread but to target me specifically, it just irked me a bit. Quoting someone for the purpose of adding information or correcting a mistake for the benefit of all is one thing. Idiomatic repartee should be left to private messages not posted to needlessly extend a thread. So I apologize to all reading that I basically did the same thing. I should have just responded to that in a private message.

Back on subject, has anyone else emailed Wizkids about Batgirl? I'm just curious to see what will come of it.

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 15:00

Originally posted by daedalus25
Are you just playing Devil's Advocate? You're obviously not supporting the fans who are trying to improve the dials. In this thread you've consistently been against every notion that a dial wasn't properly made. Either you just live for controversy or you're a diehard Wizkids fanboy. I don't understand it at all. I can't see how anybody who knows the slightest about Cassandra Cain can feel this dial even REMOTELY represents her abilities.

If Wolverine was released with ranged combat expert and mind control and the fans were against it, would you still stand against them?

Yeah, but they didn't, did they? Let me ask you something more relevent: If Wolverine didn't have B/C/F but instead had close combat expert, would you be griping about it? I mean, come on, he has claws, right? But CCE can also represent fighting prowess just as well as the BCF can, couldn't it?
The Batgirl argument is splitting hairs, is why. You think she needs CCE, I think she needs Incap. Both are great examples of how something as complicated as Martial arts can be simulated in Heroclix with a single color over a number designed to work with 2D6. This ain't Champions, it ain't V & V. It's a tabletop miniatures gaming system representing tactical scale combat. Moreover, the argument about whether Batgirl should have CCE instead of Incap is one shade less dorky than the argument that Superman should do more damage than anyone in DC because he's Superman.
It's a difference of interpretation. That's all.
People's posts on the subject take the tone of someone who is personally wounded. They imply that the designer is trying to hurt or screw with the fans. Maybe, just maybe, he thinks Incap works better for martial artists than CCE does? I know it's a stretch, but that really is all there is to it.
And for the record, the fans aren't driving the bus at WK, either. ScowlingOne said it recently, there will be no changes to the figure. They are being packaged as we speak. The figure is done. It's not worth breaking a sweat over. Simply don't use it, or mod your own, when it comes out. It's a Unique anyway, so it's not like you'll be swimming in them.
Incap has been the "martial arts" power since IC. I don't know why that would suddenly change. I don't know why so many of you are surprised at its inclusion on a martial arts figure. And finally, I don't know why it's so important to so many people. I'm a Batfan and I'm sure going to play her. It's a nice fig for the points. Who cares about CCE? Really, what does it matter? The character is a rookie in the Batman books. She holds back on everyone because she doesn't want to be an assassin anymore. She gets a couple of shots in on Batman, but he beats her because she's holding back. There. There's your character rationale for why the dial is built the way it is. Frankly, I thought your Huntress idea was better. As I said before, whatever floats your boat.

Grinner

05/27/2003, 15:01

Originally posted by daedalus25
That logic has nothing to do with the dial of Batgirl. Unique Catwoman's dial would make a better Cassandra Cain. Cut the number of total clicks, give her some range and she'll be relatively cheap AND properly representative.

That's actually what I was expecting - Unique Catwoman with about 5 clicks of life and a higher attack value.

However, I'm in the minority not complaining. You see, with her stats like this she's going to be the perfect Batgirl for my Animated Batman team (I already have Batman, Robin & Nightwing repainted).

jjs-thump

05/27/2003, 15:04

MarkFinn. well said.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 15:11

Originally posted by MarkFinn
The Batgirl argument is splitting hairs, is why. You think she needs CCE, I think she needs Incap. Both are great examples of how something as complicated as Martial arts can be simulated in Heroclix with a single color over a number designed to work with 2D6. This ain't Champions, it ain't V & V. It's a tabletop miniatures gaming system representing tactical scale combat. Moreover, the argument about whether Batgirl should have CCE instead of Incap is one shade less dorky than the argument that Superman should do more damage than anyone in DC because he's Superman.

Ah see now that's something we can work with. You feel that incapacitate represents her ability with martial arts. And you'd be correct for the most part. Most of the martial artists in Heroclix have Incapacitate because that's part of martial arts.

But you're forgetting something major. In Heroclix, getting someone to KO means they are knocked out, not killed. That's exactly what Batgirl is known for. Knocking out her opponents, not pinning them in place. And the only way to get to knocking them out is by delivering damage. Close Combat Expert adds 2 to the damage she delivers at close range, getting her opponent that much closer to being knocked out. And that's exactly what she's known for. She holds back on KILLING. But fortunately there is absolutely zero killing in HC. She doesn't hold back on KO'ing her opponents there, so there's no point in giving her a ridiculously low damage and attack.

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 15:15

Bizarro looks cool but so bad for 200 points.

Poison Ivy is A$$.

Penguin decent but not a tournament piece.

R Lantern very broken in big games, E not shabby but not great, V Lantern too many points fror what he is going to do (I would play him in a 500 point or more game though).

V WonderWoman the Bomb of the bunch but I don't have Deathstroke's AV values yet.

Superman is scary, no range but there is something about one shot kills that makes me jizz. No Outwit means someone is going to die whenever he gets to go.

Catgirl still hate this fig but I have to admit she has many uses especially in an all DC game RS until she gets hit then LC back to the medic to get healed (plus SuperSenses).

Batgirl is week only because she gets her outwit at the end of her dial and no one will waist the time on her until its to late.

Starfire is very playable RS for 2 clicks is still good move 6 shoot 10 (16 squares). Then if you need to damage bigger stuff use E Booster Gold to truck her around.

Hey Draddog, will Deathstroke's stats be up on wednesday? Will the piece previewed on wednesday have stats on the units page? When is the exact release date June 25th? Thanks piece all...

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 15:21

Originally posted by Grinner
However, I'm in the minority not complaining. You see, with her stats like this she's going to be the perfect Batgirl for my Animated Batman team (I already have Batman, Robin & Nightwing repainted).

You're right about that. And that was my first assumption: the dial team made a dial for Barbara Gordon while the sculptor designed the figure to look like Cassandra Cain. The dial does fit Barbara pretty well since she was definitely below Robin in skill but smart enough to outwit her opponent.

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 15:38

My god is Mark Finn writing a novel now. Please the guy gets the point you don't have to go down to the basics of every detail and explain the history of everything just to get a point across. Bottom line is the GL V should have at least a 10 AV and one click of Impervious. If this makes him cost an extra 15 points so be it. For gods sake he will get rapped by most the X-Men its kinda a disgrace. I can see them making another ####tier GL with just taxi stats but John Stewart is no scrub and should be able to beat all the X-clowns combined.

For Finn who no doubt be writing 9 paragraphs to refute this point don't bother just accept the fact that John Stewart is one of the best GL's and his stats should at least be adequate to fight other characters of equal power. I don't mean give him Ultron stats with crazy abilities but a V John Stewart GL should be around the 200 point mark anyways.

What this means for all GL fans is, you will have to wait possibly another year and a half to 2 years for what you want, a Gl that can fight with a decent AV. Wizkids obviously saved the goods for characters like WonderBra and to finally get it right Superman. We can all still hope for Martian Manhunter and Firestorm to be around the 200 point mark with some decent skills but will have to wait and see.

The only problem with V GL is no damage reduction and the low AV the other stats are fine. I would have dropped 1 to 2 move for 1 AV and gave him at least a click of impervious and made him a few extra points. If they are going to go staraight Energy Shield they should have jacked his DV up to 17.

skeevo666

05/27/2003, 15:44

Originally posted by daedalus25
the dial team made a dial for Barbara Gordon while the sculptor designed the figure to look like Cassandra Cain.

Kinda like the Ultimate Green Goblin sculpt on the original Goblin base . . .

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 15:45

Originally posted by daedalus25
Ah see now that's something we can work with. You feel that incapacitate represents her ability with martial arts. And you'd be correct for the most part. Most of the martial artists in Heroclix have Incapacitate because that's part of martial arts.

But you're forgetting something major. In Heroclix, getting someone to KO means they are knocked out, not killed. That's exactly what Batgirl is known for. Knocking out her opponents, not pinning them in place. And the only way to get to knocking them out is by delivering damage. Close Combat Expert adds 2 to the damage she delivers at close range, getting her opponent that much closer to being knocked out. And that's exactly what she's known for. She holds back on KILLING. But fortunately there is absolutely zero killing in HC. She doesn't hold back on KO'ing her opponents there, so there's no point in giving her a ridiculously low damage and attack.

Not forgetting, just not caring enough to keep this up. You won't convince me of the strength of your argument. You can knock people out with Incap. I'm fine with the figure the way it is, thanks all the same.

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 15:52

Originally posted by Thanosied
...Bottom line is the GL V should have at least a 10 AV and one click of Impervious. If this makes him cost an extra 15 points so be it. For gods sake he will get rapped by most the X-Men its kinda a disgrace. I can see them making another ####tier GL with just taxi stats but John Stewart is no scrub and should be able to beat all the X-clowns combined... just accept the fact that John Stewart is one of the best GL's and his stats should at least be adequate to fight other characters of equal power...but a V John Stewart GL should be around the 200 point mark anyways...The only problem with V GL is no damage reduction and the low AV the other stats are fine. I would have dropped 1 to 2 move for 1 AV and gave him at least a click of impervious and made him a few extra points. If they are going to go staraight Energy Shield they should have jacked his DV up to 17.

You use "should" a lot on these boards, Thanos. I'll bet in the real world, you argue a lot about stuff being "not fair," too. That's not really fair, is it? I mean, all I know of you is what I see on these boards, right? But you're never really around these boards much, other than to give your personal vision on how you would have built these figures yourself.

It's fascinating to know how the minds of Canadian youth operate. I'm dying to know how you feel about Taxi-ing? The Running Shot+RCE Combo? Tell me, please, how you would have written the game; it's all so terribly interesting to me and everyone else how you, at home, in front of your computer, could have designed this game and all of its figures if you had only been asked.

Doctor Strange

05/27/2003, 16:03

I just don't understand why its such a Huge and emotional subject for people who are disinterested in trying to ask wizkids for another version of the character.

Most of the posts ive seen about Batgirl have been cool, rational and reasonable. There is a lot of logic behind expecting another version of a favorite figure. Wizkids have proved that they will make multiple versions of the same person. John L has also admitted to listening to the voice of players when designing new figures.

Its only logical that a good game designer should keep an open ear to his games players. Thats simple.

Its very reasonable to hope for a new figure to be made for batgirl. It's not that huge of a deal and it is not crazy or off track.

Im sure that a lot of you, *Mark Finn* is the first name that comes to mind, really enjoy and love this game. I can understand in part how you must get frustrated by reading these "complaints" about a certain figure. I ask you this tho:

If wizkids made a batgirl in the future, who had a higher attack value, supersenses and perhaps even CCE, would you complain about the figure? Would you feel that Batgirl has been misrepresented by having a high attack value? Or, would you accept her as another version of this character?

My guess is that you would accept this new version of Batgirl as redly as you have accepted this version.

My point is that Wizkids creators don't just blindly make figures, they build the stats based on what makes sense to them and from a variety of influences. The majority of those influences are from comic books or another pop medium. However, im sure that some of those influences are from the suggestions of friends and some even from fans. If one of those influences is a vocal fan who loves the game and spots a small sore spot, then that's great! Every step to improve this game is valuable on in my book.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 16:05

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Not forgetting, just not caring enough to keep this up. You won't convince me of the strength of your argument. You can knock people out with Incap. I'm fine with the figure the way it is, thanks all the same.

No need for thanks. I was only trying to expand your mind. You care enough to offer trite comments, but not enough to support corrected versions of the figures. Honestly if you lack enough care to understand that Batgirl was made incorrectly, why bother to post at all? Obviously you have every right to post, and I'm not trying to deny you that. It just seems odd that for someone who doesn't care, you've been consistently arguing against everyone here with a gripe.

As for knocking someone out with Incapacitate... um, no. You take your favorite incapacitator and try to incapacitate my rookie thug. I'll even ignore him the entire game so he just sits there and does nothing. While your "martial arts expert" is repeatedly trying to give him tokens, and he repeatedly passes to clear them, my true CCE "martial arts expert" will be knocking out the rest of your force.

Kneel_To_Zod

05/27/2003, 16:09

Originally posted by Manchine:
You can defaintly tell the DC crowd doesnt know that much about Marvel. Riptide never almost killed. Riptide just injury him it was something else that almost killed him. Wreckers super strong does alot of damage with his crowbar. The javelin didnt hurt him the acid did.

Are you kidding me Manchine? I just named an extremely obscure X-villain from nearly a decade ago and how many times can you remember Colossus taking on the Wrecker (an even older story by the greater Shooter)? I bet that's better knowledge than most Marvel Zombies. I don't know my Marvel? Well, my Marvel library is a lot larger than my DC one. I've had every X-comic in one for or another since the beginning (thnx Marvel Masterworks, X-Men Classic, and dirty cheap copies at the old record store).

I haven't read Mutant Massacre in about a decade. So please explain to me what you're talking about. As I remember it, Riptide shredded Nightcrawler (nearly to death) and almost did the same to Colossus. Colossus snapped his neck, but was riddled with Shurikens. They had to keep him in his steel form or he'd bleed to death. He was almost inert. Shadowcat was also messed up and needed the help of the FF in the X-Men vs FF series. These X-men were knocked out of the team because of this. They had a long period of recovery before Excaliber or returning to the main X-Man team.

Maybe I'm not recalling this correctly. I know Colossus recovered fastest and rejoined the X-Men team, but I thought he was extremely messed up. I should hardly be critiqued about my ignorance of things Marvel if I'm not remembering a decades old story correctly. This is as opposed to not knowing Deathstroke the Terminator (how can you be a fan of Cyborg and not know the main villain of the Titans? ;) ).

Btw, I know Wrecker does a lot of damage, but the likes of Thor, Hulk, and Hercules can take a lot more punishment from him than Colossus.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 16:10

Originally posted by MarkFinn
It's fascinating to know how the minds of Canadian youth operate.

Whoa there. Did someone make a bash against the Czech Republic, and I missed it? Why the direct attack against Canada?

And thank you for the input, Doctor Strange. You've put things in a different perspective than I was looking, and I agree with you. If someone is readily willing to accept the game as it is no matter what, then why complain about fans trying to get new versions of their figures added to the game?

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 16:13

Originally posted by daedalus25
No need for thanks. I was only trying to expand your mind. You care enough to offer trite comments, but not enough to support corrected versions of the figures. Honestly if you lack enough care to understand that Batgirl was made incorrectly, why bother to post at all? Obviously you have every right to post, and I'm not trying to deny you that. It just seems odd that for someone who doesn't care, you've been consistently arguing against everyone here with a gripe.

As for knocking someone out with Incapacitate... um, no. You take your favorite incapacitator and try to incapacitate my rookie thug. I'll even ignore him the entire game so he just sits there and does nothing. While your "martial arts expert" is repeatedly trying to give him tokens, and he repeatedly passes to clear them, my true CCE "martial arts expert" will be knocking out the rest of your force.

How about this, then: Your problem with the figure is just that: Your Problem.

It wasn't made incorrectly. It just wasn't made the way YOU thought it should be. That's dhe difference, here. You're trying to objectively argue about a subjective thing. It can't be done. Well, it can be, but it often ends in a stalemate. Who's right, you or them? Is your version of the figure coming out, or is theirs?

Manchine

05/27/2003, 16:18

First off Wrecker is not Obscure. SO already got 1 strike against you. And COlussus was not terrible hurt from those Shurikens. Obviously your remember bits and pieces and got a few wires crossed. He was injured by Blockbuster or something and was stuck in Armoured form. When he's knocked out he reverts back. He wasnt able to revert back when he was knocked out here becuase of the fight. I cant remember what caused it but it wasnt riptide. Harpoon messed up Shadowcat. Nightcrawler couldnt port any more. Colossus was stuck in armoured form. Magento had a hard time moving Colossus's plates just to get an IV in to him. Now that's armour.

I just like Cyborg I never collected it to much. :laugh: ;) :p :laugh: At least you remember me.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 16:24

Originally posted by MarkFinn
It wasn't made incorrectly. It just wasn't made the way YOU thought it should be. That's dhe difference, here. You're trying to objectively argue about a subjective thing. It can't be done. Well, it can be, but it often ends in a stalemate. Who's right, you or them? Is your version of the figure coming out, or is theirs?

Have you been reading this thread? Obviously a lot more than *I* have a problem with the new Batgirl. In fact, YOU seem to be the only one who feels the need to justify this dial. As to whether my version fo the figure is coming out, well sorry but I lack the ability to see that far ahead in the future.

Fans argued about Spider-man, and what happened? They got a new Spider-man. Fans argued about Superman, and take a look at the powerhouse that's coming out in Cosmic Justice. His name is Superman if you haven't noticed.

To think that fans clamoring to get a fixed Batgirl is my personal problem or even the fans' personal problem is to be completely ignorant of what Wizkids has been doing for us. I'll expect to see you standing alone protesting the new Batgirl if she gets made, or you'll end up swimming in your own hypocracy.

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 16:24

Originally posted by Doctor Strange
I just don't understand why its such a Huge and emotional subject for people who are disinterested in trying to ask wizkids for another version of the character.

Its very reasonable to hope for a new figure to be made for batgirl. It's not that huge of a deal and it is not crazy or off track.

If wizkids made a batgirl in the future, who had a higher attack value, supersenses and perhaps even CCE, would you complain about the figure? Would you feel that Batgirl has been misrepresented by having a high attack value? Or, would you accept her as another version of this character?

My point is that Wizkids creators don't just blindly make figures, they build the stats based on what makes sense to them and from a variety of influences. The majority of those influences are from comic books or another pop medium. However, im sure that some of those influences are from the suggestions of friends and some even from fans. If one of those influences is a vocal fan who loves the game and spots a small sore spot, then that's great! Every step to improve this game is valuable on in my book.

I suppose if you're thinking of the Xplosion Spidey, there's some validity to that. Let's temper that with the following notion, though. There's going to be a Spider-Man in every set of Marvel Heroclix. He's got some room to play, there. The DC equivalent, Supes and Bats, are getting Elseworld treatments. I don't think that Batgirl qualifies as worthy of a multiple figure Unique. That's just me, though. You're right, though, that if enough people holler for a figure, one MIGHT SOMEDAY eventually get made.
Now, if we actually have a voice, a real voice, and we can occasionally make changes by virtue of mob rule, do you really want to "spend that action" on crying about a Batgirl Unique?

Bottom line: My original post stemmed from my relief that the CCE/incap debate was over. I didn't realize that it would turn into a "not fair/should have" debate. That's my fault, I guess. It happens with every release. I like the character; I'm glad she's in the set. I certainly like these uniques better than the first DC set uniques. But the level of histrionics on these threads is sometimes more than I can stand. And I hate when a thread I subscribed to, dealing with cool stuff like sneak peeks, turns into a horde of experts who complain and natter away at how that's so wrong, it shouldn't be like that, and blah blah blah blah.

Okay, that's my take. I'm done. Really.

Kneel_To_Zod

05/27/2003, 16:29

MarkFinn,

I can understand a lot of Heroclix characters not being exact true representations of their comic counterparts. They might come close but still fall short, or just somewhat reflect what they're suppposed to be. So going on and on about how Deathstroke and Green Lantern were shafted isn't so important to me, or in past sets, Spiderman and DD of IC weren't exactly what I wanted but were ok. Superman from HT was a wuss, but at least the dial looked somewhat correct (for a Wussy Superman). All of the above kinda represented what they should have been.

Batgirl might be the same. She has Bat-Team. Well she's on the Bat-Team and she sometimes uses stealth. She has leap climb. Ok, understandable. Incapacitate...sure I guess. Outwit? I guess that represents her ability to learn the technique of her opponents by looking at them. However, with each point, it seems as if Wizkids is stretching it. This isn't the same Batgirl that Nightwing would send to take on Deathstroke. She's a far far better fighter than Nightwing and Robin. She could probably defeat both by herself, and you could even add in the Huntress and Spoiler and Batgirl would still come out on top.

Batgirl isn't seen as a rookie anymore in combat. She almost killed the archvillain of Hawkman (a warrior with over 3,000 years of combat experience). As with Spidey and Superman, I'm expecting Wizkids to correct their errors. A Superman that can't knock down walls was eventually transformed into the monster of this set. I'm just upset that Wizkids has dropped the ball with DC. It's ok if there was no Marvel to compare it to. But I think Wizkids is doing a much better job with Marvel, and if Marvel is the definition, then the DC dials show obviously the design teams know their Marvel much more than their DC.

Manchine

05/27/2003, 16:30

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Okay, that's my take. I'm done. Really.

Are you sure?

;) :p ;) :laugh: ;) :laugh:

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 16:33

Originally posted by daedalus25

To think that fans clamoring to get a fixed Batgirl is my personal problem or even the fans' personal problem is to be completely ignorant of what Wizkids has been doing for us. I'll expect to see you standing alone protesting the new Batgirl if she gets made, or you'll end up swimming in your own hypocracy.

You know what? You're right. Feel free to take your arguments over to the Dear WizKids portion of this site and have at it. Call everyone you know. But for the love of god, just put the gripes all in one place so that people who don't want to be subjected to them don't have to see them.

And what HAS Wizkids been doing for us? They've hit their release dates, kept the same prices, and quintipled the amount of figures I can play with. You call Spidey and Supes a victory? I call them eventualities.

"Swimming in your own hypocracy." Heh. That was pretty good. I'd rather float in a sea of "not care."

And for what it's worth, I'm sorry I don't agree with you. But it's just not worth me getting riled up about. I can look at her dial and see why they made those choices. You can't. Or, you don't accept them. But when I mentioned "your problem" I was using the inclusive "you" and not singling you out.

Jay10

05/27/2003, 16:34

You mean to tell me Thanoseid has not been banned yet? Forget petitions for a new Batgirl, start petitioning to get rid of Thanoseid.

Any way, I really like all the figure's previewed so far. Rookie Green Lantern is pretty cool because he can carry 8 figures and taxi while Soaring (making his ES/D all the more useful). The Veteran should have been a bit more powerful stats wise, but I never planned on using Jon Stewart for anything but the GL team ability in the first place.

Bizarro one of the few high point pieces who will be able to use the Superman Enemy team ability effectively.

Elseworlds Superman is excellent, especially when paired with Desaad (who can Outwit defensive powers, finish off groups weaken pieces with EE, and add Support in case you need to make a come back) and a few cheap Parademon taxies.

Batgirl should have had CCE and Super Sense, it is ridiculous to believe otherwise. I'm guessing her under powered dial is a result of Wizkids just not wanting to make a slightly different version of Unique Catwomen (though that would not have been such a bad idea). Still I agree with a lot of what MarkFinn and others have said, she's still a very playable piece and complaining won't make her any better.

MarkFinn

05/27/2003, 16:35

Originally posted by Manchine
Are you sure?

;) :p ;) :laugh: ;) :laugh:

Of course not, manchine, we both know better than that! :cheeky:

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 16:44

Holy cow like I thought 20 more paragraphs by Mark Finn not actually saying anything except : I don't have a clue what I'm talking about". Wow I say should too much I guess thats sin #1, I am Canadian sin #2, and oh yeah at 26 I am a youth sin #3. Wow and I'm sorry if I can't post 90 times a day like you Finn I guess unless I start hijacking posts and spend my whole life on the boards my opinion would matter more. LOL.

Whenever I see Finn talking about anything I waist very precious minutes of my life thinking he may write something relevent or meaningful. But just like a Mark Finn should nope nothing actually worth saying. Oh yeah and when I go to work I actually work. I can't spend 24-7 on these boards. Please Finn get rid of that Hulk icon under your name: you disgrace all Hulk fans albeit you do talk alot like the Hulk. Finn is smartest one there is, Finn Smash..

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 16:45

You're absolutely right, Mark Finn. It's not worth you getting riled up over her dial just as it shouldn't be worth my getting riled up that you seem to be against us. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and if you honestly feel Batgirl is fine, then I envy you. Batgirl is one of my favorite characters, and for her to be in an expansion AND have stats that satisfy me would overjoy me. I wish I could be in your shoes, but I can't. I honestly feel she was wronged.

I don't understand how you feel this thread isn't the place to discuss that. What did you expect to find in this thread? The first post details everything "fact" you need to know about the stats. Every post after that is going to be personal opinion. Did you expect to find some revelation in a later post detailing some missed information? I suppose that's possible, but more than likely Draddog would post a new thread if there was any new information released by Wizkids.

As for the Dear Wizkids section, that's not a bad idea. I hadn't considered it as I wasn't sure how often Wizkids visits this site. I tried emailing them, and next I think I will try the official Wizkids forums. I agree that arguing here is not going to really solve anything. But it's good to gather allies in your cause, and this is as good as place as any. If enough people are interested, we can all decide on a plan of action and work from there.

As to whether Batgirl is worth our efforts of fixing when there are other figures that could be fixed, yes she is. Sure there are other figures I feel need to be fixed, but Batgirl is the first one made who is so far off from the comic book version that she's no longer recognizable.

Thanks for your closing remarks. I won't guarantee that opinions won't be expressed on your "subscribed threads". But I will agree that it's better to take those opinions to the source.

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 16:51

Hey Jay 10 its not the old days... Its just Finn and me have had a personal grudge since day one . But thanks for wanting me banned you are definitely not the first or the last to ask or want that. I had to play MTG for awhile there and could only post a couple times a week. I didn't bother posting in on bigger posts (because discussions seem to drag out to the end of time). I will begin to start answering my Mark Finn and others FAN mail.

Kneel_To_Zod

05/27/2003, 16:54

Originally posted by Manchine:
First off Wrecker is not Obscure. SO already got 1 strike against you. And COlussus was not terrible hurt from those Shurikens. Obviously your remember bits and pieces and got a few wires crossed. He was injured by Blockbuster or something and was stuck in Armoured form. When he's knocked out he reverts back. He wasnt able to revert back when he was knocked out here becuase of the fight. I cant remember what caused it but it wasnt riptide. Harpoon messed up Shadowcat. Nightcrawler couldnt port any more. Colossus was stuck in armoured form. Magento had a hard time moving Colossus's plates just to get an IV in to him. Now that's armour.

I just like Cyborg I never collected it to much. At least you remember me.

Riptide is the obscure one I'm referring to. I doubt most Marvel Zombies can tell me the issue in which Colossus took on the Wrecker and his crew.

Ok buddy, if I'm ignorant of what happened, let's go issue by issue to figure out what happened. I think the issues we need to refer to are X-Men 211 and 212. Ok, Colossus did the fighting in 211 with Archlight (I think), Harpoon, and Riptide. Riptide was the last person he fought. He did no fighting in X-Men 212. He collapsed on Psylocke and Magneto had to save him from near death, and Colossus was rendered innert. I can only recall seeing Blockbuster in X-Factor...and maybe in Thor or some other comic (hard to recall). And I think Magneto revived Colossus using some kind electromagnetic energy molecular manipulation junk.

So, from what I can remember, Colossus didn't fight Blockbuster. The last person he fought was Riptide, and he remained in armored form after that fight so as not to die. He collapsed and had to be revived. So, I think I'm pretty close when I said that Riptide almost killed Colossus.

Manchine

05/27/2003, 16:55

Yet Thanosied isnt that bad anymore. Plus he really doesnt spew words to much any more. :laugh: :p ;) :laugh:

Jay10

05/27/2003, 16:55

Originally posted by Thanosied
I'm sorry if I can't post 90 times a day

No need to apologize, I'm sure there is many who wish you couldn't post 1 time a day. ;)

Originally posted by Thanosied
Please Finn get rid of that Hulk icon under your name: you disgrace all Hulk fans

So MarkFinn is a disgrace to all Hulk fans? Oh, well, it beats being a disgrace to humanity, like a certain someone.

All in fun,

Jay10

Jay10

05/27/2003, 17:00

Oops, didn't realize that Thanoseid "isn't bad anymore" when I made my above post.

Forgive my skepticism,

Jay10

DTM

05/27/2003, 17:04

Forgive me if this was brought up here before, but doesnt Wonder Woman seem alittle powerful for her low point cost? I mean her Vet is HUGE, but costs only 126 points. What gives?

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:05

daedalus25 if you are bitter because Batgirl is #### thats okay and you should express your opinions on that. I mean you probably know more about her than most of the game designers. She really isn't that playable, if she had Outwit on the top of the dial she would be a totally different character. When a character I know all to much about or like lot gets done wrong I just hope and pray they are actually playable.

But I do think Batgirl should have a 9 attack. Robin and Huntress both got it. CCE I am not so sure about. When they give someone that ability they are usually the best of the best ie. WonderWoman, Captain America(although he doesn't have it) you know what I mean. I think one thing that Wizkids was trying to do was keep her point costs around where Huntress and Robin are because they are around the same skill.

She does have Outwit and not even the Greatest Outwitter of all time (Thanos) has it. I see your point of her not being up to par against Marvel characters but Marvel characters are way overpowered compared to there DC counterparts. I mean look at all the Maxed out x-clowns they are all 80 points pretty much with Bomb in game stats. Oh and lets not forget the all powerfull Elektra.

Maybe one day they will have a Batgirl Assasin series and you will get a 180 point Batgirl. Well until that comes man I guess we will have to wait.

skeevo666

05/27/2003, 17:05

Originally posted by Jay10
Oops, didn't realize that Thanoseid "isn't bad anymore" when I made my above post.

Forgive my skepticism,

But if he ever gets that "Infinity Toque" back from Bob & Doug we're in BIG trouble . . :laugh:

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:06

hehe that was actually very funny Jay10.

DoomX

05/27/2003, 17:10

Batgirl sucks, and I too hope it's Huntress in that No Man's Land deal whatever thing. The character seems pretty cool (never read a comic with her just heard about her) and just massivly underpowered. Sure some other characters seem to have been shafted but really Superman from the first DC set is pretty dead on for a goody goody not wanting to hurt people and leading his team. Apocalypse from XP to me is his very early incarnations that while powerful arn't overwhelming. Batgirl doesn't represent a martial artist in the least.

Just an observation by a non raving mad fanboy.

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:11

The Infinity Toque has no power until it has the Molson, Bud, Labatt's, Coors, Guinnes and Heineken pins attached. Come on guys I thought you knew this already. Oh yeah I am always 10 steps ahead.

skeevo666

05/27/2003, 17:23

Originally posted by Thanosied
Oh yeah I am always 10 steps ahead.

Yeah, but those are metric steps ;)

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:30

Ohhhhh, Muwahaha. Oh wait Americans still don't follow the laws and rules of the rest of society I forgot. Its cool that you actually knew that the metric system exists though. :) Shows some class. But remember 40% of Americans STILL think we live in igloo's up here in Canada. I wonder how far it would be to go from point A to point B? What do you guys think? Probably around 40 and 7/12's of a mile or something.

AcidBath

05/27/2003, 17:34

Sorry, I don't know if someone has said this yet because I didn't want to read through 13 pages, but it seems like WizKids is trying to make DC playable with Marvel; Wonder Woman has 17 defense with Impervious, more ranged attackers with a range of 10, the generally higher attack values, etc...

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:37

I thought so but with the exception of WonderBra and Supes so far the rest are DC like so we will have to wait for more stat previews.

JoeyTheButt

05/27/2003, 17:38

I'm not sure it's just that...

look at the damage values!!!

superman's is insane

wonder woman has a bunch of 5s (CCE factored in)

it seems like DC is upping the damage values over marvel too. I kinda like it cause it will make CJ playable in mixed games. HT really wasn't except for a select few figs.

skeevo666

05/27/2003, 17:38

Originally posted by Thanosied
Oh wait Americans still don't follow the laws and rules of the rest of society I forgot.

In the words of Mel Brooks: "It's good to be the King!"

Originally posted by Thanosied
But remember 40% of Americans STILL think we live in igloo's up here in Canada.

It's not one-sided though. I encountered a Canadian on the WK boards who was convinced Canada is the world's largest country because people of the people who live on the ice . . .

However, we DO share the world's largest unguarded border, so we must think you're OK!

Thanosied

05/27/2003, 17:46

True, true but when you only have a military like Canada does of 5 strong Indian Warchiefs, 3 slingshots and an infinite amount of snowballs come winter I don't think there is a great worry by the US for a Canadian takeover. Wow who was this guy on the boards? We are the largest country in the world since the disassembled former USSR. I can't speak for myself but there are stupid everywhere and Canada is no exception I mean look at are Prime Minister (or not).

scowlingone

05/27/2003, 18:04

Originally posted by daedalus25
Whoa there. Did someone make a bash against the Czech Republic, and I missed it? Why the direct attack against Canada?

It was an attack against Canadian youth. I'm Canadian, but not a youth, so I'm not offended.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 18:41

Originally posted by scowlingone
It was an attack against Canadian youth. I'm Canadian, but not a youth, so I'm not offended.

Ah okay. Just so long as it's only the Canadian youth that is bad and they grow up to be okay. If it's got Canada's seal of approval, by all means let the Canadian youth bashing commence. ;)

re: giving CCE to the best of the best. You don't get any better than Batgirl. But enough beating a dead horse. I'm sure someone in Wizkids has heard us shouting by now.

re: Batgirl sucks. The writing may suck, and I'll agree there. I stopped collecting Batgirl in the early 30's because the writing was unbearably bad in my opinion. But the character is still intriguing to me. Then again, there's only so much you can do with a girl who barely speaks sentences and only talent is kicking around everybody who gets in her way. They need to put her on a team like the new Titans so she can play a supporting role. She's beaten whatever inner demons have been plaguing her. They need to stop trying to turn her into a lovestruck teenager and leave her as the unstoppable killing machine she is. Trying to develop her is commendable, but there are enough Batman clones in DC now.

Brainiac 16

05/27/2003, 19:17

Thought I'd give my opinion of DC clix. They seem to make it very clear who should be played and who should be forgotten. If you look at HT, you can probably count on your hands the number of clix worth using on a regular basis. It's really not as open to experimentation as Marvel clix. DCs seem to be good or horrible, and never in-between.

Jadehorde

05/27/2003, 20:42

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Or, there's C: she's a rookie character. She's only been around in comics for a short time. Moreover, she's now holding back her killing instincts. I think her stats are fine.

Tell you what: if any of you don't want your Batgirl, or won't play that figure for some sort of complicated moral reason, PM me and I'll be happy to take one off of your hands. Me, I like the Bat-team and think she would make a cool addition to the team. I don't need her to be able to kick Batman's @ss, thanks all the same.

And if you think she's perfectly alright then I will...I would like to trade for another unique then..since I dislike this incarnation of Cassandra and you seem to have no problems with her.

I Am The Game

05/27/2003, 21:24

Okay, I'll bite, where did Colossus fight the Wrecking Crew? Don't puff out your chest just for knowing that, dude...so you read a comic, congrats!

As far as Uncanny X-Men 211 goes...

-Vertigo turns everyone inside out when they're all together
-Nightcrawler pops beside her, and 'ports her all around the sewer where they're fighting, to put her out
-Nightcrawler is spent from the effort, and Riptide runs him over and cuts him to pieces when Nightie can't teleport away
-Scrambler touches Rogue, and cancels her power
-Harpoon sends an energy spear Rogue's way, but Shadowcat tries to phase her before it hits. The harpoon hits Shadowcat in mid-phase, and she remains stuck out of phase
-Riptide is throwing dagger and blades in all directions, cutting down the surviving Morlocks that the X-Men are escorting out, laughing all the way
-Colossus stands up next to Riptide, and there's a reference to Colossus never being able to forget the screams of the fallen
-Riptide tells Colossus that hurricane winds can punch something or other through an oak tree, and that he'll do the same to Colossus.
-Colossus grabs Riptide's neck, and breaks it

In 212, Magneto explains that Colossus doesn't get hurt, but he is composed of an organic matrix that takes damage as blast points. Magneto realigns the matrix, but Colossus finds that he cannot move.

That wasn't the point of the thread, though... Batgirl's stats suck. I don't say that because she's dear to me, I only know what the guy I work with says. I say she sucks 'cause she'd never make my team. Personally, I think that's as good a reason as any to say the stats suck...!

Batman1983

05/27/2003, 23:37

All the last four pages or so have been is you guys bickering... & you wonder why Wizkids can treat you with contempt everynow & then... I understand we all have busy, stressful lives, but don't take it out here. go bicker on yahoo chat or something. As for here just enjoy. & they wonder why so many people left here......

zapdos

05/27/2003, 23:43

Not all of us have problems.

daedalus25

05/27/2003, 23:48

Batman1983

05/27/2003, 23:48

I'm mainly talking to 2-4 specific individuals Zapdos... sorry to offend

Batman1983

05/27/2003, 23:52

If they have an edit button why can't I use it? Anyway wanted to say sorry & I'm overjoyed about how cool WW & Penguin are. Penguin is deffinitely going to see play & when I first use him everybody will laugh.... Then I'll laugh! Anyway I'm biggining to see why the Bat Enemies are so fun (not that I didn't know...). :knockedou

Captain_Comet

05/28/2003, 00:27

Wow Wonder Woman is very She Hulk. Not too much like her,
but for six more points you have a powerhouse flyer with
free movement. In a 500 point game I'll have her taxi
Superman, hehehe. I like these clicks. I look foward to the
Legion and Luthor. Anyone think we're getting Deathstrokes stats soon?

MarkFinn

05/28/2003, 01:48

Originally posted by Thanosied
Holy cow like I thought 20 more paragraphs by Mark Finn not actually saying anything except : I don't have a clue what I'm talking about". Wow I say should too much I guess thats sin #1, I am Canadian sin #2, and oh yeah at 26 I am a youth sin #3.

As usual, you read, but you don't understand. The point is this: who cares what YOU think all of the figures should have? If you really want to start a dialogue, post YOUR list of these figures to the Artisan's Guild thread and have at it. You'll find many sympathetic ears there. But your replies to these previews always read as negative, bombastic, and derisive. I'm more interested in talking about what the designers did, not what YOU would have done if you were the designer.

Wow and I'm sorry if I can't post 90 times a day like you Finn I guess unless I start hijacking posts and spend my whole life on the boards my opinion would matter more. LOL.

Oh, I wouldn't bet on it.

[/B][/QUOTE]Please Finn get rid of that Hulk icon under your name: you disgrace all Hulk fans albeit you do talk alot like the Hulk. Finn is smartest one there is, Finn Smash.. [/B][/QUOTE]
You mean you don't like it?
Good.

shotoclan

05/28/2003, 01:57

so wheres catgirls HSS peepz?

MarkFinn

05/28/2003, 01:59

Originally posted by Batman1983
All the last four pages or so have been is you guys bickering... & you wonder why Wizkids can treat you with contempt everynow & then... I understand we all have busy, stressful lives, but don't take it out here. go bicker on yahoo chat or something. As for here just enjoy. & they wonder why so many people left here......

Relax, Batman. Put away the Bat-cuffs.

I'll admit that I was the one who started the whole thing. Here's why: I get tired of the righteous indignation of the fans when they perceive a transgression. It's like listening to fans complain about the inaccuracies in the new X-men movie. Five years ago, you didn't have ANY X-men movies to gripe about. Now there's two. No thank you, no wow that's cool, just bile and invective about how Nightcrawler should have fur and what an affront it is that the character is too religious. And then HCRealms gets ahold of preview dials Straight from Wizkids, and after the first few people say thanks Wizkids, or great job HCRealms, someone starts in with, "Wow, what a major disappointment" and that just starts the ball rolling downhill from there. Were I in their place, I'd tell you all to frickin' wait for it. It's ingrateful, is what it is.

That said, this place is designed to accomodate everyone, and there are several places to voice gripes. I would prefer that everyone take their gripes to a new, different thread, so that people who don't want to read about the gripes can skip over those posts, and everyone who wants to commiserate can get together a lot easier. I think me and Daedalus understand where the other is coming from, and I certainly wish him no ill will. If he gets what he wants from the game, then that's great. But I get tired of the negativity and the griping and the kvetching and the self-styled experts who know better than anyone how X SHOULD be. Please.

Sorry folks, for this rant. I have made a conscious effort to be nicer on these boards, and in general, I've noticed the attitude has swung towards the positive. But on occasion, this stuff gets to me and I have to bark at someone. My apologies to those who had to wade through all of this.

drgnoftyr

05/28/2003, 02:00

fyi
they fixed that problem it doesn't read hss anymore on the review

drgnoftyr

05/28/2003, 02:02

hey markfinn i enjoyed it this way i don't feel so bad when i say somthing jokingly or sarcastic like

Terman8er

05/28/2003, 02:10

I think the real problem here is Mark is from the Czech Repiblic...not that there is anything wrong with that don't take me wrong...where "freedom of speach" isn't one of thier basic rights. Well, here in the Good Ole U.S. of A we have that right. So we get to gripe as much as we like.

For those of you that took me too seriously...chill. :)

Thanosied

05/28/2003, 02:22

Wow what a totally biased and personal response. Well at least he excused himself this time for the rant and thanks for that.

Now what the heck is wrong with voicing opinions on how character A should or shouldn't be. I mean I have read pretty much every comic with Thanos in it and I think that makes me as close to an expert on him as one can get, don't you? Why should I not be a little PMSing on the subject when a character is created in a game that is totally inaccurate except for one skill (Inv) to what he is in the comics.

I should listen to a few pages of complaints on other characters aswell such as Batgirl for instance. I don't like her personally but I like to know what an expert says about what skills would be missing from her comic version. This is good clean fanboy fun and if that is beyond some well they should not respond to begin with.

Please do not state the obvious that the charcater is going to be made like shown whether we like it or not. We all know this. People just want to express there opinion on what they know and how they would more accurately create said character. Saying this please stop heckling the boards on like 10 straight posts reiterating the sam epoint over and over it just gets tiresome. Write what you have to say and unless its responded too end it there.

Please excuse me for this rant all peoples should feel free to express your opinions on the boards even a loadmouth like myself.

gorillaboss

05/28/2003, 02:36

Re: Bizarro

He needs AT LEAST one click of Perplex.

Mjolnir

05/28/2003, 02:44

...batigrl sux, spiderman sux, apocalypse sux, rookie Thor sux, r black cat sux, etc etc etc....
You people whine, moan, b*tch, and complain all you want... but if they mess up Green Arrow I may just cry... and the Martian manhunter too......
I have this image of J'onn costing 98 points and being about as effective as a rookie nightwing. That is my horror.

On a positive note:
i see some uses for poison ivy and Penguin....
Superman is the second coming of the Heroclix God(OWAW Superman was the first)
Vet Wonder Woman will be his queen.
Green Lantern will be one of her knights.

a few predictions:
Hal or Kyle should be better versions of Green Lantern than Mr Stewart so theres still hope Wizkids can get it right. Oh fyi: I'll find ways to use all three GL's in different point builds.

Now, let's see those Deathstroke stats to begin the complaining anew...

MarkFinn

05/28/2003, 02:54

Originally posted by Thanosied

Now what the heck is wrong with voicing opinions on how character A should or shouldn't be. I mean I have read pretty much every comic with Thanos in it and I think that makes me as close to an expert on him as one can get, don't you? Why should I not be a little PMSing on the subject when a character is created in a game that is totally inaccurate except for one skill (Inv) to what he is in the comics.

Thanosied, this is the most intelligent, intelligible thing I think you've ever written. Yes, I completely agree.

I should listen to a few pages of complaints on other characters aswell such as Batgirl for instance. I don't like her personally but I like to know what an expert says about what skills would be missing from her comic version. This is good clean fanboy fun and if that is beyond some well they should not respond to begin with.

Again, intelligible and at least in theory, I agree with this point, too. Amazing, isn't it?

Now, I agree with these two points. What I don't agree with is you (the inclusive you, here) hijacking a "Here's Something Cool and Special For the Heroclix Community" style thread and turning it into your own soapbox about how wrong it all is. You want to do it, fine, go to it. But take it off of the "We're trying to be nice to the Clix fans" thread, because I don't want to be lumped in with the complainers. I'll speak for me, and you can speak for you. Just pick a place on these boards, and there are several, where you can start a new thread about what you (inclusive you) would have done. You'll find that my problems with you stop immediately.

Thanosied

05/28/2003, 02:57

No comment. To tired to type against the all powerful endless typing God known only as Mark Finn. Goodnight..

Kneel_To_Zod

05/28/2003, 03:45

Originally posted by I Am The Game:
Okay, I'll bite, where did Colossus fight the Wrecking Crew? Don't puff out your chest just for knowing that, dude...so you read a comic, congrats!

Hey, I'm not gonna beat on my chest with pride that I know obscure comic facts. I was just responding to being called a DC guy who really didn't know his Marvel. I guess I should change my icon to Avengers and call my self Starfox to be treated as a "Marvel guy".

And this strange Colossus tangent does have a point. Colossus isn't extremely super durable. His defense is ok. Let's call Exp Colossus the Mutant Massacre guy. He has 15 Invul, but got taken down by Marauders (I'm crediting Riptide). That's more than awsome when you compare it to true heavy hitters. Vet thor has survived the surface of the Sun and has semi-superspeed for dodging, and he only has 17 Invul. Rookie Superman survived a Nuclear Blast and is faster than lasers. He's only 15 Impervious. OWAW Superman survived the big bang blast and could race from continent to continent...and he's only 16 Imperv. Colossus' 15 Invuln isn't that big an insult...as compared to what Superman got in HT, but I can understand all those cases. Batgirl just got screwed everyway...

Anyway, Colossus took on the Wrecking Crew during Secret Wars. He got healed by Johnny Storm's alien chick.

ciriquen

05/28/2003, 03:57

Originally posted by Kneel_To_Zod

And this strange Colossus tangent does have a point. Colossus isn't extremely super durable. His defense is ok. Let's call Exp Colossus the Mutant Massacre guy. He has 15 Invul, but got taken down by Marauders (I'm crediting Riptide). That's more than awsome when you compare it to true heavy hitters. Vet thor has survived the surface of the Sun and has semi-superspeed for dodging, and he only has 17 Invul. Rookie Superman survived a Nuclear Blast and is faster than lasers. He's only 15 Impervious. OWAW Superman survived the big bang blast and could race from continent to continent...and he's only 16 Imperv. Colossus' 15 Invuln isn't that big an insult...as compared to what Superman got in HT, but I can understand all those cases. Batgirl just got screwed everyway...

Colossus was not harmed (in the HC sense) by Riptide's otherwise lethal spiky objects - he was able to continue on just fine... His problem was that if he turned back into flesh and blood he would bleed to death. Magneto tried to fix him and instead paralysed him - when he recovered living steel was his natural state and his power level had increased. Since even vet Colossus starts as Piotr, we can assume that the designers didn't take this part of his career into account.

The best part of the story for me) was the fact that eventually it allowed Kitty and Kurt to found Excalibur (I know you guys on the other side of the pond hated it, but I was just glad to see CB and Megan back in action!)

Kneel_To_Zod

05/28/2003, 04:39

Originally posted by ciriquen:
[b]Colossus was not harmed (in the HC sense) by Riptide's otherwise lethal spiky objects - he was able to continue on just fine... His problem was that if he turned back into flesh and blood he would bleed to death. Magneto tried to fix him and instead paralysed him - when he recovered living steel was his natural state and his power level had increased. Since even vet Colossus starts as Piotr, we can assume that the designers didn't take this part of his career into account.

The best part of the story for me) was the fact that eventually it allowed Kitty and Kurt to found Excalibur (I know you guys on the other side of the pond hated it, but I was just glad to see CB and Megan back in action!)[b/]

I dunno about that. He was hurt bad in that fight (by Archlight, Harpoon, or Riptide). I've seen him take more punishment by Archlight. So it was either Harpoon or Riptide that messed him up. He didn't revert back after the fight because he was too injured. Anyway, Colossus in any form would not survive on the surface of the sun or a nuke blast or an exploding Galactus. So seeing his numbers compared to Superman and Thor, I'd say his stats match up...but I guess that's the problem of using other clix as reference. Not all of them are set nicely relative to each other. Oh well.

Btw, I liked Excaliber. If for nothing else, we got great Alan Davis art. Those villains were pretty retarded, but the Excal team kicked butt.

Terman8er

05/28/2003, 04:45

He was definetly hurt. Remember when Magneto first "looked" at him? In the electromagnetic spectrum? He saw him leaking "energy" (for lack of a bettter name).

mulkabu

05/28/2003, 07:11

Uh, sorry to interrupt, but uh, Batgirl - remember her? ;-)
My 0.02 is that she doesnt represent the current character very well at all.

Brian
whos a sucker for mute masked black-garbed ninjas

Tylk

05/28/2003, 07:59

I'm so very bored at work so Aaron, it's a new day.
Begin to tease the Finn again please. I quite enjoy reading the Thanoseid/Finn posts. Of course, if you start going on about Thanos for time number 94390, I'll have to beat you when I come over next time ;) Course, you still use him in like 50% of the games we play too.
It's also hardly any kind of thread hijacking, as with the like 4th post I equated GL to Iron Pants (which is whining to the Nth degree really). Aside from cheers and jeers from the new stats listed, what kind of posts would you expect? Please bear in mind that Aaron didn't start the complaining. The main thing, aside from some GL attack value complaints, was Batgirl, and it started waaaaay back on like page 2 of this. Obviously alot of fans of her thought she should have been much better than she ended up. Also, a point was that when she was first introduced, it did say she would have psychic blast to simulate her uber-kung fu stylin, (albeit used in long range,not close) and now she does not have it. That was a huge deal, because now she is just a glorfied Robin.
Anyways, once again, I could care less, thanks to how well WW was done (now we pray for Legionaires and M'onel perhaps?...).
Without the cheers,jeers,whining,wondering who is next, and complaining, this thread would be just *bump* *bump*..do the *bumpity* dance...
Wow, this post was a waste of time too really.

The Corinthian

05/28/2003, 13:26

Well my only problem with the whole 'batgirl sux' issue is that we are paying money for figs that we want, so why shouldn't we get them properly made. I mean if they say they're gonna give us a certian figure that we are gonna be paying for, it might as well be something we can get some use out of. I mean other then saying "i'll put her on only because she's batgirl.", whos really gonna use her for strategy purposes? You can get the same from Robin, and he's way cheaper.

esfoad

05/28/2003, 13:27

I'm going to avoid the nasty personal attacks edge this thread has dabbled in and just summarize a few things for my stance against this Batgirl dial.

I support the argument that this simply is NOT the Cassandra Cain Batgirl that the sculpt would indicate. Anybody with any grasp or knowledge on the current character HAS to know this (and to those who do not it's difficult to explain our strong feelings for our argument).

I've tried to understand the various reasons behind the dial we've seen and there's very little wiggle room here:

1) This is the dial of the No Man's Land appearance of Helena Bertinelli (The Huntress) as the new Batgirl. Despite the sculpt's uncanny resemblance to the current customizations of the current BG (Cassie).

2) There is an REV of Cassandra Cain's Batgirl in this set. Though unlikely, this could help explain/justify the unique.

3) This was an outright mistake. Whether it was meant to be the dial of a Barbara Gordon Batgirl (and they blew the sculpt), they swapped out the dials of an REV Batgirl (which would require #2 above), or they absolutely and utterly dropped the ball on Cassandra Cain (not knowing of her character or assuming she was just like Barbara Gordon's BG).

Regardless, and based on the dev team's previous, welcomed, and appreciated interactions with us here, I think the reaction to this Batgirl deserves an official response from a WizKids rep that frequents these boards.

The main beef isn't about whether this current dial is playable or not (because it is; for it's points, team affil, and modest abilities) but with just how grossly inaccurate it is for the current Batgirl (who's sculpt is used to represent this dial).

Many of those who agree with me here have already stated the appropriate reasons and explanations for this (some much better than I would have been able to put into words) so I'll skip that. Instead I'll add my top issues with this dial if it is indeed meant to be Cassandra Cain:

A) Her Attack and Defensive values are too low. She should at least match Nightwing's starting AV of 10 (though she's considered a better fighter) and a stronger defense of say 17 (albeit with Super Senses) or possibly even 18.

B) No Super Senses.

C) No Close Combat Expert

The length of her dial could be debated (maybe adding another point or two of health) but if you had as much trouble hitting her as you should then it's much less of an issue. Vet Dove's dial (minus the starting "inactive" click) would be a great start. Sprinkle in a point or two of Incap or Psychic Blast (another thread all together) and this would not have become a 15 page thread. But this dial has nothing to hang it's hat on. Nothing. Nothing to call it's own and differentiate itself from the others (let alone properly represent the character). Even if only one of these three points I mentioned were addressed with her abilities it would have prevented this volatile reaction. Sure we would have still voiced some displeasure or disappointment that one or two of the three abilities weren't addressed... but it would have been enough to prevent this riot.

We're not asking for an Xtremely overbalanced figure of 200+ points for Cassandra Cain. We're not asking for Batman 2.0. All we were looking for was a figure that was even somewhat on par with what she should have been. That figure would have added a different twist to the Bat team and would have taken her proper place among them.

The list we have come up with for Cosmic Justice and the majority of the other previews look fantastic. This is a game and we all appreciate and enjoy it. Our opinions of this Batgirl dial aren't an attack on the game itself or those that blindly support it. Though I personally won't cancel my preorder of the case for one figure (as upset as I am and as much of a Cassandra Cain fan that I am), I fully understand and support those that might. That is their choice and they are entitled to it. I am obviously as disappointed as you are with this dial as I was so looking forward to the abilities and dynamic that Cassie deserves/should bring to the Bat team.

Of course all figures won't perfectly reflect their characters within the scale and rules that was masterfully cobbled together to produce this game we all love. But this Batgirl, if it turns out to be THE Cassandra Cain as the sculpt would suggest, is so far from her truth as to have sparked the nasty reactions we've seen so far this week.

And rightfully so.

Tylk

05/28/2003, 13:40

Well put esfoad.
God I was tempted to talk more of the Thanoseid/Finn battle of wits...
rejoice, I shall not!

Doctor Strange

05/28/2003, 13:54

Originally posted by ciriquen

The best part of the story for me) was the fact that eventually it allowed Kitty and Kurt to found Excalibur (I know you guys on the other side of the pond hated it, but I was just glad to see CB and Megan back in action!) [/B]

I loved Excalibur! It's one of my all time favorites actually.
I miss reading about Brian and Meghan. :cry:

MarkFinn

05/28/2003, 14:08

Esfoad, that was a very respectful and polite and well-thought out response. I promise you if all of the responses to the sneaks were this polite and moderate in tone and lacking in anger and malice, I would have no reason to get upset.

Thanks for your restraint on this, seriously. I have no problem with an opinion stated thusly.

neonscholar

05/28/2003, 16:16

Well I must say that I agree with esfoad completely. I also must say that still think that the other heroclix that have soon in the perview look excellent. I really love the better versoin of Cyclops called Starfire. I mean move of 12 with running shot, that's beautiful. Well let's hope Wizkids fixes Batgirl like they fixed Spiderman and Daredevil.

Jadehorde

05/28/2003, 16:44

Originally posted by MarkFinn
Yeah, but they didn't, did they? Let me ask you something more relevent: If Wolverine didn't have B/C/F but instead had close combat expert, would you be griping about it? I mean, come on, he has claws, right? But CCE can also represent fighting prowess just as well as the BCF can, couldn't it?
The Batgirl argument is splitting hairs, is why. You think she needs CCE, I think she needs Incap. Both are great examples of how something as complicated as Martial arts can be simulated in Heroclix with a single color over a number designed to work with 2D6. This ain't Champions, it ain't V & V. It's a tabletop miniatures gaming system representing tactical scale combat. Moreover, the argument about whether Batgirl should have CCE instead of Incap is one shade less dorky than the argument that Superman should do more damage than anyone in DC because he's Superman.
It's a difference of interpretation. That's all.
People's posts on the subject take the tone of someone who is personally wounded. They imply that the designer is trying to hurt or screw with the fans. Maybe, just maybe, he thinks Incap works better for martial artists than CCE does? I know it's a stretch, but that really is all there is to it.
And for the record, the fans aren't driving the bus at WK, either. ScowlingOne said it recently, there will be no changes to the figure. They are being packaged as we speak. The figure is done. It's not worth breaking a sweat over. Simply don't use it, or mod your own, when it comes out. It's a Unique anyway, so it's not like you'll be swimming in them.
Incap has been the "martial arts" power since IC. I don't know why that would suddenly change. I don't know why so many of you are surprised at its inclusion on a martial arts figure. And finally, I don't know why it's so important to so many people. I'm a Batfan and I'm sure going to play her. It's a nice fig for the points. Who cares about CCE? Really, what does it matter? The character is a rookie in the Batman books. She holds back on everyone because she doesn't want to be an assassin anymore. She gets a couple of shots in on Batman, but he beats her because she's holding back. There. There's your character rationale for why the dial is built the way it is. Frankly, I thought your Huntress idea was better. As I said before, whatever floats your boat.

Problem being that for all that Cassandra holds back...she has still been consistently portrayed as one of the best MA's of DC Earth...some people might beat her on any given day, but over the long haul she has been shown to be the equal of just about every character out there...she's been trained since beinga toddler to be a killing machine...maybe she's turned her back on the why she was taught, but the skills are still there.

She should at least be a Nightwing level character with a different focus...mainly less Batman lite and more ferocious attack machine...which is what she is...I can stand no outwit or smoke for her...maybe even no CCE if they don't give her a ranged attack...but her current stats are what the major complaint for me is...for all the rainbow colors, it's her atrocious stats for a worldclass MA that gets me in a tiff...it shows either complete ignorance, bias against the character(not new, JonL said as much for Iceman and other characters), or a behind the scenes story like the Huntress theory...either way the dial is COMPLETELY off base with what has been consistenly shown in the comics.