Cosmic Justice Sneak Peek - Firestorm

[Draddog]

<TABLE BORDER="0"><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1"> <P ALIGN="CENTER"><TABLE BORDER="1"><TR><TD COLSPAN="3" ALIGN="CENTER"><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Unit Name:</B> Firestorm</TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Unit Num:</B> 067</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Point Cost:</B> 59</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Team:</B> None</TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Unit Num:</B> 068</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Point Cost:</B> 75</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Team:</B> Justice League</TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Unit Num:</B> 069</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Point Cost:</B> 86</TD><TD><FONT SIZE="1"><B>Team:</B> None</TD></TR>
</TABLE><P><B>Play Tip:</B><BR> Firestorm is another great mobile turret. Keep him at ranged and keep firing! Combine Phasing and Flight to allow him to move where he wants, on either Indoor or Outdoor maps. His Toughness provides some protection, and the Ranged Combat Expert makes his ranged attacks even deadlier. Just remember, you cannot combine Ranged Combat Expert with Incapacitate.<P><B>Game Design Notes</B><BR>Firestorm has always been a favorite of mine, so I was happy to finally be able to commit him to plastic for all of eternity. Since he has a number of different abilities, I had to think about how best to represent them. His energy blasts are definitely more powerful than his physical strength, so I gave him a helping of Ranged Combat Expert to boost his damage. Phasing was a no-brainer because he has the ability to pass through solid matter, and I gave him Toughness to reflect his ability to take damage and remain standing. Incapacitate is a power that can be used to represent a number of powers and abilities; in this case it simulates his matter-transforming powers. It’s versatile and allows him to slow down opponents and damage them, if he times it right. His range is consistently excellent and his Experienced version features the Justice League team ability, so he’s easy to move around.
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[Tylk]

OMG...I think I just had an orgasm....
go firestorm!

[jjs-thump]

Sweet god all mighty

[Spider-fan 930]

This is what has made me officially want to get this set.

[drgnoftyr]

nice figure i can't wait this set keeps getting better

[Colesy Kid]

Well Skeevo and his Firey CAL weather has brought us Firestorm...stay tuned for more weather and more sneak peaks

hahaha

Cool Fig

[xkimbal]

holy $#!t!

[KidInTheHelmet]

YES!! I wanted Firestorm! He's one of my favs and his E is just what I wanted. I have to get this figure!

[DCFan#1]

Ladies and gentlemen, meet the DC Firelord...

Let the ranting begin!

-Rich

[Kid Zemo]

Looks Awesome - This set is shaping up to be really appealing.

PS. You should check out the rotating version of the pic on the WizKids site.

[jjs-thump]

My God it's beaker from the muppets!!!!

[Braden]

Yes. Incapacitate, nothing beats that.

[ducko5]

Firestorm? COOL!

[Gacy's Clown]

YAY!

[chas75reds]

Well Done!! The Firestorm has begun....

:laugh:

[RUDEDAWG25]

Powerful taxi with phasing, and free movement(JLA) and an awesome sculpt. This set should be incredible.

[Thanosied]

Cool but 86 points? He controls matter shouldn't he be like 150 range he would lay the beating on all JLA'ers and I get an X-Men. Oh well still nice to see him though.

[Thanosied]

Cool but 86 points? He controls matter shouldn't he be like 150 range he would lay the beating on all JLA'ers and I get an X-Men. Oh well still nice to see him though.

[bjmc1975]

I'm guessing 8/9/10 attack, 2 damage plus RCE, judging by what we've seen so far.

[sol]

The Experienced version is gonna be the one to get/use.

No LSH member? Ah well, maybe next week.

[Manchine]

I still want CYBORG!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Love it!

I'm a Firestorm fan from way back (his first issue) and I love that he's in the set. He looks like a really useful figure, too.

[skiman]

I am not even a big DC fan....but my god can they get better....great fig....think I might buy a case.....:grin:

Skiman

[basilisk220]

Firestorm is my favorite less famous super hero so its great to see his clix. it sounds like they are making him how he should be. He should have a really good def and above average attack.

[grendelboy]

I don't like being one of those "they totally screwed this character" guys but GOD THEY TOTALLY SCREWED THIS CHARACTER!
This is a guy who can literally transmute matter into other matter by thinking about it. He offered to transform the top layer of the Earth's crust into water to solve a drought. That power is simulated by some incap?!!!
Firestorm's power is basically the "power cosmic" that all you Marvel zombies think is so off the charts powerful and we get this pathetic mid-range loser version of the second or third most powerful guy in DC. Whip Superman? No problem, turn his suit into Kryptonite.

[Remjer]

Cool I've always liked Firestorm

Sounds like a cool fig with good range of powers

not too expensive either, but I hope his stats are good

Incapaictate over barrier, interesting, thought he might have both

great piece so far

[Veggiehater]

Cool, Firestorm!

Great character and a very good sculpt. Too bad we don't get his stats, if we got his and Deathstroke's my week would've been made! *hint hint* ;)

VH

[Kaitouace]

Rats. No AE base so no Killer Frost. Oh well. Cool fig regardless.

[Darth Sabre]

Cool to see Firestorm! Seems like he might be a bit underpowered, but cool nontheless.

[Greyshadow]

jjs-thump - you bet me to the punch. Beeker meets Flaming Carrot . . .

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Hmmm... not in the units listing yet.

I like the scupt, but the eyes are wrong. I'm gonna repaint them all white.

[perceptor666]

I so much need to get this fig. Come on Cosmic Justice set. I can't wait for Friday's Wizard World East show. But I was told they are going to limit everyone who goes to the show to only get 3 C.J. boosters. Has anyone else heard this? I was hopeful to get 10 boosters. Oh well, great looking set. Later

[Thanosied]

Okay matter transforming powers gets Incapacitate? I thought that was for billy clubs. What a disgrace really. Whats next a 10 point Molecule Man with one click of Incapacitate? They ####py power like Shapechange so they give Mystique Perplex and Stealth to represent her Shapechange. Now Daredevil has a stick and he has Incapacitate but ol' Firestorm here can control matter. So what do we give him? Oh well lets just give him like one of the ####tiest powers in the game.

I can't say enough of how wrong that is. He should have at least a combination of 2 to 3 powers to mimic that. So done wrong its not even funny but again the figure looks cool and I am glad his here.

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Ladies and gentlemen, meet the DC Firelord...

Let the ranting begin!

-Rich


Should I already start a thread on that?

Steve

[Trihorn]

Why do I smell a Firelord??

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by Colesy Kid
Well Skeevo and his Firey CAL weather has brought us Firestorm...stay tuned for more weather and more sneak peaks


Yr welcome!

:cool:

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Wow.

I mean, WOW.

Does anypone else realize how close we are to a full "Superfriends" foster?:confused:

Here's hoping for an Apache Chief big fig!!;)

[jjs-thump]

LOL yes!!! to the becker thing

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Grendelboy, I think you are overreacting. In theory, Firestorm was always hugely powerful, but in practice he was not that tough. Until he went into space and all that, but I prefer not think about that.

[Kaitouace]

I'd like to know what people WOULD give Firestorm to simulate matter transformation in Heroclix. Other than just boosted stats or something.

[DCFan#1]

Firestorm is on the same level as Firelord power-wise, in the comics at least. I don't want to start anything, but I can smell controversy from a mile away. DC finally has a Firelord type character!

-Rich

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by Thanosied
Okay matter transforming powers gets Incapacitate? I thought that was for billy clubs. What a disgrace really. Whats next a 10 point Molecule Man with one click of Incapacitate? They ####py power like Shapechange so they give Mystique Perplex and Stealth to represent her Shapechange. Now Daredevil has a stick and he has Incapacitate but ol' Firestorm here can control matter. So what do we give him? Oh well lets just give him like one of the ####tiest powers in the game.

I can't say enough of how wrong that is. He should have at least a combination of 2 to 3 powers to mimic that. So done wrong its not even funny but again the figure looks cool and I am glad his here.

So let's hear your ideas! He can incapacitate Superman and damage him by turning something near by into Kryptonite or something. Incapacitate IS a catch-all power, you have to be imaginative to think about what it does. He will have a high range, so it could be effective as he will probably have it later in the dial. I hope it is not on the whole dial.

[Thanosied]

Yes he is that powerful and no Incapacitate should not represent matter controlling powers. Maybe Outwit, Barrier and SuperSenses all at the same time. My God I get the I can do it all WW and Supes but like grendel said probably the third or fourth most powerful guy in DC is going to suck donkey ballz. I mean there's Darkseid, Spectre, Mr.Mixilplik( is that even close to spelled correctly) and maybe a few others and then there is Firestorm.

I can't see how he is done justice here. Does he at least have 12 range? An 11 AV? SuperSenses at any point? His Diffence may be near what it should be if its 18 with toughness but I doubt it. I so far see him as a bad Starfire and thats just sad. I guess I can't wait for my second and third favorite DC characters Captain Marvel and Martian Manhunter. They should have great powers for around the 40 point range. MY GOD being the crying.

[PaladinKWA]

Sweet sculpt! Sweet stats!

And they even got his team right! Rock on WizKids!

[Tylk]

Aaron, get over it. You won't see Shazaam in this set ;)
Tissue?...

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I can see barrier, but I don't get Outwit or Supersenses (unless that means Stein talking to him).

Really, power-level-wise, FS is not in the upper tier. He's never been sees as able to go toe-to-toe with Batman, Superman, Woner WOman or a GL.

[DHKnecht]

Thanoseid & Others:

For those of you who say he is not powerful enough, remember that he has to be balanced in the game as well, and represented by the games powers. Not all the game dynamics are perfect, but if you want to be totally accurate, you will need so many powers and rules that the game will bog down and be almost unplayable and not as much fun.

Also, you want an uber-character? Those aren't fun at all. Okay, let's make Firestorm "uber." Give him a 15 attack, 20 range, 3 ranged attacks, with Pulse Wave and Outwit. Now he can basically hit everyone he can draw line of fire to for three clicks of damage each (okay, I'm not sure you can do multiple pulse wave attacks, but you get the point). In just a few turns, he wastes everyone. Where is the fun in that?

Also, anyone who says that Incapacitate is the weakest power doesn't know how to play the game well. Incapacitate is far, far from useless, and with multiple bolts and a high attack, really becomes dangerous (ala Nightwing). There are far too many uses and situations for good use of Incapacitate to discuss here, but this is very much a Firstorm ability. Remember him encasing the Parasite in amber? True incapacitate.

All in all, this is one of the best figures I've seen in Cosmic Justice so far. Batgirl and Catgirl aside, Cosmic Justice looks to be great.

Don K.

[Kaitouace]

Actually I could see Outwit.

Some guy's wearing armor that gives said character Toughness. He turns armor to paper. Toughness goes away. Giving him some Outwit here and there could probably be enough.

[Kaitouace]

It actually makes MORE sense for Firestorm to have Outwit than most other characters. Like having Black Panther outwit Invunerability and things like that.

[Thanosied]

Agreed Spidersence. But even you have to admit that a power as vast as matter manipulation should not just be represented by just ol' ####py Incapacitate. Supes can still roll the Impervious. Besides when you can control matter you should have Perplex or Outwit. He can just say nono to any oncoming attacks thats pretty much outwit to me.

I was hoping for Cosmic Justice but where is the justice in this. I knew there would be characters way worse than Btagirl and here it is. I am a standout as a person who complains but any fan of Firestorm will be pretty pissed when a 50 point storm comes a calling and takes him out or even a Doombot with Bullseye combo. Beast will charge and take him 3 clicks down. I just don't see how JUST Incapacitate represents matter manipulation. So when they make Silver Surfer he will have RS and Incapacitate and thats it? Wow great game. I guess I will still be playing all Marvel teams seeing as how no characters I like in DC are actually good.

Oh well I sound pretty bad don't and I guess the point has been made so I'm out.

[Jay10]

If Thanoseid is this overly dramatic when he hasn't seen Firestorm's stats yet, imagine what he'll do when he sees Firestorm's max attack of 8. ;)

All in fun,

Jay10

[Kneel_To_Zod]

Firestorm is a very very powerful character (able to transform the crust of the Earth, simulate next generation nuke blasts, transfor theoretical matter into marshmallow). However, I agree with another poster that Firestorm's uberness is more based in theory than practice. He did have amazing moments like defeating a JLA team with both Superman and Zatana, hurting Darkseid, and defeating a Parasite that had the combined abilities of multiple characters. Still, the guy acts like a rookie (when he was a rookie to even now). Remember that he doesn't have the Prof with him to guide his abilities.

I think 2 dmg with RCE, or 3 dmg with RCE should be great. He is better at range, but he does have super strength. Then, as to not make him so overpowering, decrease his AV. So he has the potential to inflict major harm, but won't always. Toughness, Incapacitate, and Phasing are perfect. I think Outwit can reflect some of his abilities, but on average, he does more blasting than making things into Kryptonite. I think Incap is better for that abilitiy.

Btw, Molecule Man and Firelord are more experienced with their abilities than Firestorm. I can't recall Firestorm throwing a mountain range at anybody yet.

[AZS]

Originally posted by DS-00-0, FSD
Here's hoping for an Apache Chief big fig!!;)INUK -CHUCK!!

[Mayberry Bat]

Oh yeah. A third JLA'er shown. At least a few more heavily rumored/confirmed in Green Arrow, Black Canary, Martian Manhunter (who have I missed?). This set is really shaping up. I just hope there's a couple of more Titans.

As far as him being depowered I disagree. He HAS the powers to be one of the top 5 superheros in the DC universe. He just never fully demonstrates that. He always seems a little unsure of himself. That depowers him. I'ld like to see his complete stats before commenting any further, but it seems pretty good on paper (or computer screen).

[grendelboy]

All I can say is if this is how they represent Firestorm, don't expect much from Silver Surfer. The "power cosmic" will wind up some RCE and Incap.

[spam01]

Firestorm! Great! I really cannot wait for this set. I'm more of a Marvel guy, but this set really impresses me. Not so thrilled about Catgirl, but I'll take Firestorm over Firelord any day!

[capfan]

He looks great and I can't wait to play him. But, I also said that about Iron Man and Hawkeye until I saw how Jon L. screwed them on their stats.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by Mayberry Bat
He HAS the powers to be one of the top 5 superheros in the DC universe. He just never fully demonstrates that. He always seems a little unsure of himself. That depowers him.


What if he had been raised by Darkseid?:p

[Spidersense]

Thanoseid,

I would agree with the Outwit part, as that could be the Dr part of him, unless this is the version where he is on his own and cant control his powers that much, so he is going to school to learn chemistry.

Plus, he cant have a damage reducer, Barrier and Super Senses on the same spot as they are all Defense. Lets see what his stats are and then we can flame a little. He should have a high attack and defense, but I would agree that looking at the point cost, its probably not likely.

Its a tough world for Wizkids because they have such rabid fans of some of these characters.

[bizzaro]

Looks fantastic! Can't wait to get some (cosmic justice figures) in Philly!

[GroovyBoy]

Originally posted by Thanosied
Okay matter transforming powers gets Incapacitate? I thought that was for billy clubs. What a disgrace really. Whats next a 10 point Molecule Man with one click of Incapacitate? They ####py power like Shapechange so they give Mystique Perplex and Stealth to represent her Shapechange. Now Daredevil has a stick and he has Incapacitate but ol' Firestorm here can control matter. So what do we give him? Oh well lets just give him like one of the ####tiest powers in the game.

I can't say enough of how wrong that is. He should have at least a combination of 2 to 3 powers to mimic that. So done wrong its not even funny but again the figure looks cool and I am glad his here.

Wonk wonk wonk....

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by azs
INUK -CHUCK!!

Let's hear you spell out the Samarui yell for turning into a whirlwind.

Something like Kazi-mo-whooooooo-knee-hi-akoo

If you havent gone to www.seanbaby.com you really need to.

[Mayberry Bat]

Originally posted by skeevo666
What if he had been raised by Darkseid?:p

Oh yeah!! He probably would've raised the temperature in the Apokolips fire pits and roasted Darkseid and took over. :devious:

And he'ld probably cost about 300 points. ;)

[Thanosied]

DHknect we are not talking uber retarded stats and numbers we are talking about making him what he is. He is not a freakin taxi. He is an obscure character and not really in the JLA nowadays. And for the guy who says he can't WW or Supes like really common guy. But Batman well nobody beats him so I waon't go there. I see the game dynamics and I see the DC game mechanics where everything is dulled down a little. I also see a really #### good V WW for 126 points that was perfectly created. I don't want to say anymore that he should have this and shouldn't have that. But when you can control matter you are usually going to be in the top 5 in your Universe.

Oh my God I can so see them releasing a Galactus now. INV, INC and thats it yippie. And no he is not as powerful as Galactus its just the point. When we can't think we use Incapacitate sounds great. They might aswell put R on his Veteran because thats what is to me. Even in Crisis on Infinite Earth's the guy was untouchable and that was in the late 70's early 80's if I remember correctly.

[boneyard]

What? His eyeballs are painted in?

That's it, this figure is totally BORKEN!!!

[Mayberry Bat]

Originally posted by Thanosied
He is an obscure character and not really in the JLA nowadays.

Actually he is in the JLA nowadays. About 6 to 8 issues ago when they had another roster change after the Obsidian Age storyline he came aboard.

[Tylk]

You're just jealous I got my Wondaaaaah Woman Aaron ;)
*cue the music..*
dododododo...wonder..woman..dododododod

I agree though, he got cheaped out even worse when I have to play your cheap teams ;)

[Kneel_To_Zod]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse:
Really, power-level-wise, FS is not in the upper tier. He's never been sees as able to go toe-to-toe with Batman, Superman, Woner WOman or a GL.


Actually, in Firestorm#4 he took on a JLA team with Superman, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Red Tornado, and Hawkman. He pretty much took out Z and Supes with his first attack. Wonder Woman had to save Superman. He took on Hal Jordan Green Lantern in Firestorm #75. I think Hal had the upper hand there...

[jjs-thump]

What if weather wizard was rasied by darkseid? or black manta? :)

[Tylk]

Black Manta doesn't need to be raised by Darkseid though...
He already has Incapacitate.

[jjs-thump]

LOL

[grendelboy]

I relent. There is no good way to represent Firestorm's powers. I have combed the PAC. However, doesn't that say "maybe we need some new powers"?

[Casby]

Well I guess the person who said he had seen a 'Firepin' can now be partially forgiven :)

[Kaitouace]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Let's hear you spell out the Samarui yell for turning into a whirlwind.

Something like Kazi-mo-whooooooo-knee-hi-akoo

KAZE NO YO NI HYAKU!!!

[Kneel_To_Zod]

Originally posted by Thanoseid:
They might aswell put R on his Veteran because thats what is to me. Even in Crisis on Infinite Earth's the guy was untouchable and that was in the late 70's early 80's if I remember correctly.

Crisis was mid-80's. He was ok in that story. He was chosen with a select few to go along with Superman on the raid on Anti-Monitor's citadel. In my opinion, Dr. Light outdid Firestorm in that series. She absorbed a sun and redirected its energies at the Anti-Monitor. I guess in DC Heroclix that'd translate to 2 dmg + RCE :) with 9 atk.

Anyway, the disturbing part of this, is that comparing Firestorm to just Cosmic Justice figures, he's below Starfire. Ok, I think Starfire is the better fighter and warrior, but Firestorm is way above her in terms of power. Unlike Batgirl though, I think Wizkids did an ok job. He isn't super uber, but he does kinda represent the character....especially if you take into account the vet won't have the prof with him, and the other versions Firestorm was a rookie. Btw, Firelord had pretty low cost for a herald of Galactus, maybe we could get the same here? Lol. Nah, DC usually gets more wussified...

[shin-goji]

Beaker...yes, definitely, beaker.

[LuckyJ]

After seeing the...ummm..."stats" on Wonder Woman and Starfire nothing is impressive anymore. But I do like the trend in DC having generally higher damage values while Marvel generally has higher A/D values. Seems pretty fair.

Firestorm could have had a myriad of powers: TK, Barrier, Defend, ES/D, Flurry, Impervious (representing how he changes dangerous projectiles into snow and flowers quite often), Pulse Wave, Energy Explosion, and probably more that I can't think of at the moment. I mean, if they give Green Lantern all that stuff then why not Firestorm?

The thing that's the most sad is that since he's a REV they could have had hugely different point values to represent how Ronnie grew more creative and skilled with his powers. The Rookie cost is about right. The Exp at 100-110 would have been fair and then the Vet at 150-175. I think they passed an an opportunity to make the guy with a "playable" version and a "true-to-character" version.

[Thanosied]

Agreed again with you Spidersense but it says matter controlling powers and Im not saying give him wacked out stats like some suggest. But He could technically have every defensive power in the game. He should have Outwit or Perplex. Phasing and flying are no brainers we all he can do that. When you see 80-90 point characters especially DC ones
you think at best 10 AV, 16 DV, maybe 2 Damage with RCE but his stats should be far greater. 11 AV EE, 17 DV T, SS, B whatever. But he needs to be revamped to have Outwit or Perplex.

Why would they make a first time character and choose it to be Firestorm when he wasn't so powerful blah blah blah. He is powerful and should be represented as such. When I see his less than impresive stats I am going to blow a lid for sure. Shield Billy clubs and Daredevil calli sticks are good representations of INC but sorry folks MATTER MANIPULATION is not unless its combined with Outwit and a defensive power aswell.

Sorry for all the #####ing but holy cow when this guy comes to my home I will loose all hope for characters like Silver Surfer and other guys who really have true power. This will however open the door to create characters like Molecule Man and Galactus and have them playable for under 300 points because that is really what they have done here. Dark Phoenix I can't see being anymore than a really bad R Ultron now sorry folks.

[Valandar]

At the very least, he should have Barrier somewhere on his dial... maybe on the very first click, or towards the end.

[sol]

This set isn't 'woosified' and neither is Firestorm. Sure he has all these powers and he can take on just about anybody, but he gets put on his butt quite a bit. He shouldn't be Impervious - right off the bat. Toughness is fine. Maybe they could have given him 5 damage, but then he's be Firelord with a free move. Incapactitate can be almost any power defined correctly.

I think he's about right for the game, but then we only hav the preview not the stats. Why not wait until we actually get him to complain?

[DCFan#1]

An Apache Chief big fig would RULE!

I'm going to laugh and laugh when we see the stats on Firestorm, and he has a 12 attack to start out...

-Rich

[Thanosied]

Grendel maybe it is time for some new powers. This figure would suggest that. But the point of the matter is he wont be able to beat on anyone but himself. Yippie another Iceman in our mists. Yeah I can taxi guys around and let the real heavy hitters of DC do the work like Bane. Wow why doesn't Wizkids just call me up on the phone and ask me what other characters I like so they can kill them too. I got a really bad GL and now I get an even worse Firestorm. I wonder if John Stewart and Firestorm combined could not just wipe out all of the Marvel Universe Earth. There maybe a few survivors like Dr.Strange and Dr.Doom but thats it. I don't think either is capable in an in game battle as anything but an exspensive Shadowcat with some high damage values so you think you may get lucky once and awile and score a hit on Robin's 16 Defence.

If Firestorm has a 9 AV which he most likely will and GL aswell they will need a 9 to hit a V Nightwing. Did anyone think of this before hand? Does anyone on the realms in there right mind see Nightwing even on his best day defeating one of these 2 characters? I am sort of ashamed right now. Two lower level Cosmic Beings turned into a MAGIC SCHOOLBUS for game purposes.

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by shin-goji
Beaker...yes, definitely, beaker.

Classic my friend, classic. I wont be able to get that out of my head now when I field him. MEEP!

[scowlingone]

Right on. One of my favourite DC characters, with definitely the best costume evr to come out of the late 70s, puffy sleeves and all.

I'm buying a case. There's no getting around that anymore. I'm buying a whole case.

[grendelboy]

I am already doing a custom dial and dialtop for him. I guess that's the way it is. "If you want something done right, do it yourself".
Any opinions on Impervious? He does become intangible to let attacks pass through him or turn incoming projectiles into harmless ones. So it's not so much absorbing damage as nullifying it.

[IceHot]

Is time for some new powers. But be thankful that they didn't give him all the powers you suggested. If they had he would be so overpriced you would never play with him.

What is unfortunate for him vs. Firelord is that he is probably consistent throughout his dial unlike the economical cheesy side of undercosted late dial clixes like Firelord has.

Thus you probably could expect a DV of around 15 and an AV around 9 through most of his top clicks with 2DM+RCE. I think the big suprise payoff would be a 12 range. Also be thankful they didn't waste any cost on the running shot (since it is expensive and doesn't combine well with RCE). If he has 2, 3, or even 4 bolts that would be a nice touch. My bet though is 1 bolt. With any luck his speed will be low enough that he doesn't have to overpay for that stat.

[hair10]

Woo Ha! My favorite comic character from when I was a kid finally made it! Now if they would just include Blue Devil (pre-Neron)...

[Thanosied]

Grendelboy I think the matter alteration would be more of a SuperSenses type defence. But I do think its time we start doubling up on powers. 2 powers on one click its about time or some new powers for sure. If I have to complain maybe thats where the problem really lies but Incapacitate (to represent matter manipulation?) geeesh I still can't get over that. Its like not giving Thanos Outwit it just doesn't make any sence.

Tylk shush you over there I get the shaft and you get your WW its just not fair. :(

What about Raven? What about me?

[Thanosied]

No more overpriced and underpriced comments please thats a none issue. If you are only talking tournament play then there are only like 20 playable figures anyways so please stop using that analogy. If they made a 400 point figure I would still play it in fun games so you see nothing is unplayable unless its so absolutely bad or weak compared to some other character previous created. IE Parasite

[Ojin]

Nothing is unplayable -at all-, as far as I've noticed so far. Not -even- Parasite. I've used him pretty well in the past, even against people who favor the Flaming Q-Tip and such...

And as far as the procing comments go... it's pretty true. There's no logic to a 400 point character whatsoever, especially since Superman only ranks at around 200... That's pretty much the top notch set right there.

You just can't have Firestorm with much more points than, say, Green Lantern. And there's allready a Green Lantern character in the set.

Firestorm has been designed to represent the general popularity of the character and to fill out a certain level within Cosmic Jistice, which is what he does and does well. He's -not- an ideal, 100% accurate version of the character as he is in the comics. But, so far, -no- character has been. It's completely impossible to do that, maintain play balance and stay true to every vision of the characters.

Even DC themselves have characters whose abitiltes which differ from version to version, from writer to writer and dependant on whose comic they are showing up in.

This has turned into a tirade much longer than I'd intended, but frankly... there's just no logic in complaining about what Wizkids do to one or another character. Comics are too unstable and game design too rigid to ever allow for an accurate version of most characters. <shrugs> It happens, and in private, I've whinged about it myself, but then I suck it up and keep playing. What else can we do? ^-^

[m1s1n]

Not bad but I find myself being more excited over the new map announcement. The people who think he needs to be more powerful don't understand the game balance. There's an interesting article at comiscape about the death of comics and Supes is their main focus. Thought I'd share that with you all.

[Scipio]

For those who are disappointed in Firestorm's power level, remember; yes, he great raw power, but he WAS an idiot. Hey, I was a fan of the guy too, but part of his character was that he wasn't that bright and that severely limited his ability to use his powers.

The idea that Firestorm of all people would have Outwit was the best laugh I've had all week.....

[Captain_Comet]

I LOVE THE FIGURE and I so far have no power complaints.

[jjs-thump]

Im the one who made the beaker joke :(

[Angelripper]

I'm a long time fan of Firestorm, (still have a nice run of his original series), and this isn't him. Not even close.

His face looks like complete carp.

Incapacitate to represent matter transformation is a HUGE bloody stretch.

Needs a taxi to be effective, and who taxi's around a phasing character that can already fly?

This is one of those figures that they should have waited to make until new powers come out.

The more I see of Cosmic Justice, the less I want any of it.

[Brigadier M]

Originally posted by Thanosied
I do think its time we start doubling up on powers. 2 powers on one click its about time...

I would bet almost anything that will never happen.

M!

[Thanosied]

Hey Ojin I guess you completely missed the V Wonder Woman. But maybe you didn't and are just not thinking my man. If a charcater is 1000 points like Galactus why is there no point? He could face off against 1000 points of allied characters. By your thoughts no character should be made that isn't tournamnet playable and I think that is just wrong.
Seriously little Joey is sitting in his room right now wondering when HC is going to release his favorite charater The Devourer of Worlds. But for some ODD reason most people are yappy about characters costing too many points.

Please not all pieces have to be centered around tournament play 300 or less and if they are thats Wizkids problem not mine. If they just want to support one facit of there game then I see that as a little short sighted. Now back on topic Firestorm should be more powerful end of discussion.

[Shellhead]

I like him. Of course he should probably be a little more powerful, but you can say that about any particular character that someone REALLY likes (although I have to say, Iron Man was everything I hoped for and more). He'll be useful and a nice counterpoint to Vision on the Avengers team.
Finally JLA and Avengers can both bring their A game to the map.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Thanosied
DHknect we are not talking uber retarded stats and numbers we are talking about making him what he is. He is not a freakin taxi. He is an obscure character and not really in the JLA nowadays. And for the guy who says he can't WW or Supes like really common guy. But Batman well nobody beats him so I waon't go there. I see the game dynamics and I see the DC game mechanics where everything is dulled down a little. I also see a really #### good V WW for 126 points that was perfectly created. I don't want to say anymore that he should have this and shouldn't have that. But when you can control matter you are usually going to be in the top 5 in your Universe.

Oh my God I can so see them releasing a Galactus now. INV, INC and thats it yippie. And no he is not as powerful as Galactus its just the point. When we can't think we use Incapacitate sounds great. They might aswell put R on his Veteran because thats what is to me. Even in Crisis on Infinite Earth's the guy was untouchable and that was in the late 70's early 80's if I remember correctly.

He should be powerful yes...but he also suffers from Kyle GL syndrome...he constantly forgets what he could do just an issue ago...most comic characters suffer this, but Firestorm moreso. He gets dumb with his powers...I'd consider him slightly more in point cost with the respective upping of stats and powers...but not by much...he should be a heavy hitter but he just isn't...

I'd consider Spectre, Fate, Waverider, Sentinel to be more powerful regardless...and many more characters with Firestorm's constant regression.

That and using anything Crisis is a bit circumspect...given that an aspect of it was to dial back the powers...thus we lost the superlightspeed Flash, the planet juggling Supes, etc...

[Thanosied]

The idea that Firestorm of all people would have Outwit was the best laugh I've had all week.....


That comment was made to represent his matter manipulation. The thought that Incapacitate and Incapacitate alone represented it was the biggest laugh I had this year.

[m1s1n]

Originally posted by Thanosied
If a charcater is 1000 points like Galactus why is there no point? He could face off against 1000 points of allied characters. By your thoughts no character should be made that isn't tournamnet playable and I think that is just wrong.


It doesn't just have to do with the fact that the character would not be tournement legal. Consider the size of 1k point game. Your teams would be huge--the game would take forever! Not to mention the fact that even with a 200 point character you lose the point to action ratio. Characters need to somehow fit into the scheme of game balance. If this means weakening their characters so be it. Afterall it's not like they made him a 41 point chump. Creating new powers and changing game mechanics isn't really an option at this point seeing as WizKids isn't really open to our sugguestions.

[thejew]

um...yeah.

wizkids formula =

make a great and efficient fig,

add incapacitate if a low level fig to boost its cost

or command to a high level fig to boost its cost,

then release.

(not happy)

:angry:

[darius_dax1]

Incapacitate should only be one of the powers that describe matter manipulation.

I think these other powers would work well for matter manipulation:
Outwit
Energy Shield/Deflection
Barrier
Defend
Perplex
Support??? (has he ever healed anybody in the comics? I can't recall)

Firestorm's dial should be lit up more like Dr. Stange's dial.

[JoeyTheButt]

"Ladies and gentlemen, meet the DC Firelord..."

umm yeah, I'll believe this when we find out he has 10 clicks, 5 damage for the first 2 (3+RCE) and 13 attack.

Get my point? He's not gonna be a FL cause his attack is gonna be like 9. I'd say 10 MAX. Probably won't have 5 damage either. And I would bet against him having 10 clicks.

I don't think there is gonna be an other firelord

Rookie GL is pretty undercosted, however it won't make as much difference in lower point games (which are usually what happens in tournamnets). In higher point games he could end up pretty evil.

[Ojin]

Hey Ojin I guess you completely missed the V Wonder Woman. But maybe you didn't and are just not thinking my man. If a charcater is 1000 points like Galactus why is there no point? He could face off against 1000 points of allied characters. By your thoughts no character should be made that isn't tournamnet playable and I think that is just wrong.

Oh, I saw her. But the thing is, she's -still- not perfect. Yes, she's very, very good, but Wonder Woman is a much more popular character - many people know what she can do and what kind of character she is. Far less people will go ballistic if Firestorm is toned down to fit game balance than if Diana were.

That's the way of it, and it pretty much has to be. I don't object to having characters that aren't tounament playable... heck, by the standrds of a low point tourney, there's a lot of characters that aren't tourney legal, not to mention the Big figures.

What I feel -wouldn't- make sense, from the POV of WizKids designers, is having a lot of characters that were so totally accurate as to eradicate the possibility of lower point games or remove most of their figures from the much mentioned tournament play. Some figures have to be scaled down and it's the leser know ones that will be. Firelord is just such a figure. It's not a big surprise at all, really. ^^;

[okiedokie]

Hmmm, no AE base so no Killer Frost? Well Swamp Thing and Arcane didn't have AE bases and they still were both in the set.

But if you want to see Killer Frost, check this out.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/maynardqt@sbcglobal.net/lst?.dir=/Heroclix&.src=ph&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/maynardqt@sbcglobal.net/vwp%3f.dir=/Heroclix%26.dnm=Killer%2bFrost%2b2.jpg%26.src=ph&.view=t

[okiedokie]

You can also check out her stats on Urlmaker's dial making website.

[drop19]

Originally posted by Thanosied
Yippie another Iceman in our mists.
I hate it when Iceman gets in my mists. The damp air starts getting frosty and it's just an all around mess.

Firestorm is a very powerful character but he's also a character who gets whupped around by the likes of Multiplex, Slipknot and Killer Frost. Take a good look at his rogues gallery, then tell me the guy is on the same level as Silver Surfer or Superman.

When the Professor was still a part of the entity I think you could probably make an argument for something like outwit, but much less so with the Ronnie-only version. In a GL crossover mini from a couple years back (Ring of Fire or somesuch) they showed Ronnie studying with The Atom so he could use his powers more efficiently. The way I see it (and no you don't have to) is that Ronnie is a hero with a great deal of potential, but that potential still remains fairly untapped. I have no problem with him using Incpacitate as it seems like a lot of his offensive maneuvers involved trapping someone with an elemental construction or transmuting their power blast into flowers. He could probably stand to be a bit stronger, but I'd rather have a versatile undercosted version than a version that is too pricey to field efficiently.

[DoomX]

You whiney whiney people. I can see the Batgirl's camp of complainers because not only is she underpowered but out right sucks. Firestorm is just some guy that shoots fire and warps matter. He has RCE and toughness and phasing. Sounds good to me and his point cost seems reasonable even. I mean it's a Shadowcat that packs a punch. Can't wait till I can use him.

[Basil Elks]

Yay, Firestorm!!!

[DCFan#1]

Joey, have you seen him in the comics? This guy could be a monster in clix! Firelord is a chump in the comics, but he's a powerful chump. Same with Firestorm. He's forgetful and sometimes downright dumb, but he holds amazing power. A twelve attack value? Absolutely. I'd wager my first Vet Firestorm pulled on it.

-Rich

[Batman1983]

hmmm .... I like it. I like it a lot! Now I can't wait to use him on the JLA Tower map

[shotoclan]

let the burning begin:p

[weezer_10]

I don't know if you've noticed, but Firestorm's figure number are quite high on the list (#67, 68, and 69). And given that it's a 96 figure set, this would mean Firestorm's one of the last few R/E/Vs before the Uniques.

Here's what I'm getting at; on all set lists, they've left some of the more stronger figures on the upper-end of the list. Take for example the following:

Infinity Challenge

- Kang
- Ultron
- Firelord

Clobberin' Time

- Dr. Doom
- White Queen
- She-Hulk

Xplosion

- Mandarin
- Iron Man
- Colossus

Hypertime

- Superman
- Batman
- Brainiac 13

I know they're not the most strongest figures in their repsective sets, there are a few exceptions, but I would say that Wizkids leave their stronger figures at the top-end of the list. ie, figures with better all-round combat values.

Let's look at Cosmic Justice so far:

- Wonder Woman #76, 77 and 78
- John Stewart #82, 83 and 84

Firestorm's numbers are from #67-69.

If there are 12 Uniques like Clobberin' Time and Xplosion, that means the numbers of the Unique figures will be from #85 to #96.

Firestorm's costs range from 59-86, very similar to Starfire, but I'm pretty certain Firestorm is a lot more powerful than Starfire. I think we'll be seeing some better combat values on Firestorm, our new flame-grilled friend.

I don't think we should under estimate him.

[Gargantua]

I can't say I followed Firestorm that closely, so I'll stay on the sidelines of the "is he an accurate depiction" debate. Seems okay to me.

[Ro-gan]

YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[_/\seis.MIC/\_]

All I know is that I'm gonna chop his head off and use it to make a Ghost Rider lol...

...he does look pretty good though. Can't wait for this set to come out.

[jkc]

Anyone else bracing themselves for a 70 point Eclipso and an 80 point Mordru. Either that, or they'll both have lots and lots of incapacitate.

[Terman8er]

Originally posted by Thanosied
He is an obscure character and not really in the JLA nowadays.

Um...he is actually an active member of the CURRENT JLA so...???

[Terman8er]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
An Apache Chief big fig would RULE!

I'm going to laugh and laugh when we see the stats on Firestorm, and he has a 12 attack to start out...

-Rich

I keep reading all this about y'all wanting Apache Chief in HeroClix.

You guys do know that Apache Chief IS in the JLA now...right?

He is called Manitou Raven. A Native American Shaman from the Obsidian Age.

He actually INUK CHUK'ed into a giant to fight a bad guy once.

Classic!

[tchipley]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Let's hear you spell out the Samarui yell for turning into a whirlwind.

Something like Kazi-mo-whooooooo-knee-hi-akoo

If you havent gone to www.seanbaby.com you really need to.

Spidersense and azs,

Knowing and being able to quote those tranformation yells tells really dates you two. I'm guessing early to mid thirties.

Funny as heck though. I thought I was the only one to remember the "superfriends" that couldn't. let alone the yells.

Inuk-Chuck! Inuk-Chuck!! Inuk-Chuck!!!!
Kazi-mo-whooooooo-knee-hi-akoo!!!

Hmmm... nothing happened. Guess I aint a superfriend.

[Valandar]

Actually... I thought it was pronounced:

Inek-chok!

*demolishes his ceiling*

Hrms, apparantly, I was right...

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by Valandar
Inek-chok!

*demolishes his ceiling*

Hrms, apparantly, I was right...




There you go, "growing large" again!

[Paradox Factor]

Hate to put a damper on everyones hopes for an Apachie Chief big fig, but AC it owned by Hanna Barbara, not DC. That's why he was never in any DC comic. Yes, i know that DC and HB are owned by Time Warner, but look at the Super Friends figures done by DC Direct. All the characters are DC owned characters.

[Captain K.]

<<There you go, "growing large" again!>>

"I can no longer... grow bigger..."

[Terman8er]

Originally posted by Paradox Factor
Hate to put a damper on everyones hopes for an Apachie Chief big fig, but AC it owned by Hanna Barbara, not DC. That's why he was never in any DC comic. Yes, i know that DC and HB are owned by Time Warner, but look at the Super Friends figures done by DC Direct. All the characters are DC owned characters.

Um...did you not read what I said about 5 -7 posts ago?

I keep reading all this about y'all wanting Apache Chief in HeroClix.

You guys do know that Apache Chief IS in the JLA now...right?

He is called Manitou Raven. A Native American Shaman from the Obsidian Age.

He actually INUK CHUK'ed into a giant to fight a bad guy once.

Classic!

[Paradox Factor]

Yes I did. However Manitou Raven isn't Apachie Chief. Manitou is much more powerful, with magical powers including being able to transform into a flock of ravens, time travel, raise the dead, hibernate for thousands of years, and yes, he can also grow realy big for a short period of time. He also has a hatchet that cannot pierce the skin of a good man

Like I said, Apachie Chief character is owned by Hanna Barbara, as is Black Vulkin, and Samurai (I think that's his name). Thay were added to make the Super Friends multi-ethnic.

[Terman8er]

I see your point but let me explain.

iirc it was Kelly that wrote Raven's arrival. He commented in an interview that he wasa huge fan of the "Super Friends" and wanted to bring into the comics some of those characters.

And Manitou Raven IS Apache Chief. He commented that he wanted that character in the JLA just not with that corny name. And hence Manitou was born...Manitou? Not corny? Oh well.

Now, while the name "Apache Chief" may be copywrited by someone else the character is now in the JLA.

Know what I mean?

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by jjs-thump
My God it's beaker from the muppets!!!!

My apologies, I missed you post earlier. You hit the nail on the head!

[superfriend]

Firestorm - Yeah! one of the truely great characters to come out of DC in the late 70's, and one of my fave's.

The JLA is getting a lot stronger with this set:
Green Arrow, Zatanna, Firestorm, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, John Stewart.

and yeah, I'm a BIG "superfriends" fan myself (check the name)

[JayThor]

WAAH! WAAH! WAAH!:cry:


You people are the biggest bunch of babies! You haven't even seen the dial, held the figure, or played it, and you are condemning it! I stopped reading at page 7, the whining was so bad. I hope I play some of you people, so when my Firestorm-included team defeats your team, I can watch you cry.

[MysticThanos]

I agree with JayThor, we have to see the figure before we label him "Sucky". And if he is sucky, maybe they'll make a unique of him.


Hmmmmmmmmm.......................:devious: Mwahahahahahah!

[weezer_10]

I'll agree with you there MysticThanos, they did the same thing to Aquaman. While Aquaman was still a very good figure, many thought he was severly under done.

However, I don't think the same is going to happen to Firestorm, I actually think his dial is going to be very good on all versions of him. And his sculpt is truly awesome, the standard of all the preview figures so far has been nothing short of spectacular.

On a different note, people have been saying that Cosmic Justice is too focused on the JLA, or there are too many JLA members in this set, well, who are we getting from the JLA in Cosmic Justice?

- Wonder Woman;
- John Stewart;
- Martian Manhunter;
- Black Canary;
- Green Arrow; and
- Zatanna

Only six out 96 figures. That doesn't seem like that much to me.

Anyhoo, I can't wait for Cosmic Justice! I'm pre-ordering my case first thing tomorrow morning (now that I've got the cash)! :p

[Mayberry Bat]

Weezer_10

You left out the character you're posting on. Firestorm makes 7 for the JLA. And it's not the fact that we're getting a boatload of JLA.

It's that fans of other teams like the JSA (one figure), GLcorps (2 figures), Mystics (none), and Legion (none) have no team to field. I'm a huge Titans fan and they've only shown one hero and one villain. One more hero and villain is rumored, but even as a Titan fan I want more and have many more than the other teams I listed.

This being Cosmic Justice they could have added some Justice Society of America members. GL's & Legionaires seem about Cosmic as you can get and only get one GL and 2 or 3 rumored/confirmed Legionaires. And I just want some Mystics because I think the team ability would be cool.

Irregardless of my rant (I'm really not sure what my point is :laugh: ) I think the set is shaping up fine. But I can see where fans of other teams would be less than enthused.

[daedalus25]

It'd be more than 6 to 96 since there are REV versions of those 6 figures. And you left Firestorm off your list which is ironic considering this is his thread. ;)

Anyhow I think Firestorm is a great addition to the set although I haven't been following him too closely lately. I remember when I first read one of his comics in the early 80's and I thought he was amazing. I'm sure I'll use him on more than one occasion.

[bullseye100]

yeah!!! Firestorm, Baby!!!

[rouge2]

I understand the ire of some of the Firestorm fans, but a free-moving Phaser who flies AND has RCE and incapacitate is nothing to sneeze at. I think he'll be a great figure for low cost.
As to his power being lowered to fit game play, I'll just say my favourite DC Character is Swamp Thing, and if they had made a true Vetran of his, well let's just say there aren't enough colours in the rainbow to represent his abilities. I'll take my neutered Swampy, 'cuz he's still Swampy and is fun to play. C'mon dudes, you're getting a Firestorm Clix!

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Captain K.
<<There you go, "growing large" again!>>

"I can no longer... grow bigger..." Pfhizer makes a pill for that...

[Batman1983]

Don't worry I'm sure Birdman will figure it all out.

[jetli72]

Firestorm has nothing to do with Firelord. He is underpowered, overvalued (because of some clicks of Incapacitate), with low combat value: the expert version has 9 attack, 15 defense (if my memory isn't sinking), 2 damage and 8 range, with 2-3 cliks Incapacitate, RCE, Toughness and something other which I don't remember. Practically he is very similar to Starfire, but a bit less powered.

[JayThor]

Sounds very playable to me.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Why does incapacitate automatically equal overpriced? Is it that difficualt to find a use for?

People have no imagination.

[scottcoz]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
A twelve attack value? Absolutely. I'd wager my first Vet Firestorm pulled on it.

Hey Rich, did anyone take you up on this bet? I would have, if I'd seen your post before I left for Wizard World - alas, now it's too late for me to take advantage of your impetuous wager. Oh well. In any case, if you havn't heard yet - no, his attack value is not 12.

[thjimmy]

So, scottcoz, what is his AV?
Is there anything worse than someone who points out a problem or issue without offering a solution or answer?

Add value, contribute, do something.

His highest AV is 10, btw.

I should have taken the wager myself. :-)

[Thanosied]

I would have. We all know that wasn't going to happen. We all know the Vet is playable but I don't think justice was served. He is another Starfire and he shouldn't even be on the same level as her unless she has a Mother Box or 2 lying around somewhere we all don't know about. Oh well I complained enough earlier and I am really pleased about the bada$$ villians they have in this set so why bother being bitter any longer.

The point is Firestorm was my 4th favorite character in DC after Kyle Rayner, Captain Marvel and the Martian Manhunter. He wasn't done justice but oh well I got Amazo, Despero and Eclipso to hold me until Captain Marvel comes out.

[scottcoz]

Originally posted by thjimmy
So, scottcoz, what is his AV?
Is there anything worse than someone who points out a problem or issue without offering a solution or answer?

Add value, contribute, do something.

His highest AV is 10, btw.
Hmm, not sure exactly what your beef is. Do you object to the fact that I didn't post Firestorm's AV, or to the fact that I called out DCFan on his improbable assumption?

On the former - dude, I didn't post it because by then FS's stats were online. I didn't figure anyone would take my word for it, anyway - you should know how skeptical people around here are :-)

On the latter - my post was addressed to DCFan, but since for some reason you have decided to take issue with it, I'll respond. Thing is - I don't believe that I ought to be telling people what to do - rather, I was just pointing out an error on someone else's part. What they choose to do about that - ie, be more careful about making spurious assumptions in the future, or tell me get lost - is entirely up to them. So, "offer solutions"? What would you have preferred - that I said, "hey, shut up"? That's a solution - but not my style. Sorry to disappoint you.

Lastly, what exactly is the difference between what I was doing in my post, and what you did in yours? If there is some problem with critiquing other people's posts, then why do you do it? Do you not hold yourself to the same standard as you do others?