You be the judge: Mind Control vs Outwit

[double_a]

Just to get some grey matter excited:

THE SITUATION

Player1 - Mandarin & Black Panther
Player2 - Moondragon & Nick Fury

ROUND 1
Player1:
Panther outwits Moondragon's MindControl.
Mandarin & Panther rest.

Player2:
Nick Fury outwits Black Panther's Outwit. Moondragon regains Mind Control.
Moondragon successfully Mind Controls Black Panther. Moondragon wants to use Panther's outwit against Mandarin.

Is this legal?

[double_a]

An extra point to consider:

Normally Black Panther's outwit would be gone until the start of Player2's next turn.

In this situation: will Panther be able to use his Outwit on his next turn because Moondragon turned it back on
or
would it still be considered "off" because of Fury's original outwit?

[Valandar]

She can use it... because a friendly figure may not be outwitted, and BP is a friendly figure when he is being mind controlled.

HOWEVER... anything BP Outwits while mind controlled is instantly returned when he returns to the other player's control, for that very same reason. So anything Outwitted cannot be taken advantage of except by BP, unless it's an on-off scenario (like Superstrength - yes, he has it back, but the object is still on the ground next to him).

[Canada Maestro]

Valandar, although you can't activate outwit on a friendly figure, it does not go away if the figures become friendly.

However, if Nick Fury outwits Black Panther's outwit (Mandarin gets his MC back), then cancels his own outwit... Black Panther gets his outwit back while Mandarin keeps his MC.

[Funky Jett]

I really hate to say this, but I believe the answer should be, No, and here's why:

Outwit says, "...treat the target as if it does not have the cancelled power."

So once Nick Fury Outwits Black Panther's Outwit (so Moondragon regains her Mind Control), it is no longer available for Moondragon to use after she controls BP.

[HeroComplex]

Originally posted by Canada Maestro
However, if Nick Fury outwits Black Panther's outwit (Mandarin gets his MC back), then cancels his own outwit... Black Panther gets his outwit back while Mandarin keeps his MC. *touches finger to nose*

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Canada Maestro
However, if Nick Fury outwits Black Panther's outwit, then cancels his own outwit... Black Panther gets his outwit back while Mandarin keeps his MC.
Now, that CAN be done. As long as Nick cancels his own Outwit prior to Moondragon's Mind Control action, she will be able to use Black Panther's Outwit.

Unfortunately, once the Mind Control action is over, Black Panther can cancel his own Outwit to restore whatever power has been cancelled.

[FishmanLT]

Well, I'm no judge, but I'd say that Mind Control is the determining factor here. In the FAQ under the Mind Control description it states the following:

"When a figure is Mind Controlled, all its powers and abilities are at the controller’s disposal, even if the owning player had turned off optional ones before the Mind Control attack."

It states that ALL powers and abilities can be used. The only discrepancy is that it specifically uses abilities that are turned off by the owning player as an example. I would however say that it is just an example, and that this does mean that you can use all of their abilities, and that it doesn't matter how the ability was turned off.

Thats what I think at least.

[Mr. Pilkington]

I think Mandarin should have Outwitted Nick's Outwit to begin with, thus avoiding this whole mess. ;)

[DaLuvster89]

I just want to know how Nick Fury got to his Outwit on the first round... j/k.

Panther Outwits Moondragon's MC.
Nick Fury Outwit's Panther's Outwit.

At what point is Fury going to cancel his own Outwit?

I would think that if he cancels it Before Moondragon's attack, her MC becomes Outwitted again. Similar to a situation where Mandarin Outwits something, he is damaged to get rid of the Outwit, but he ends up on his last click re-gaining Outwit, thus the power he Outwitted stays Outwitted. *Whew*
I'm wondering if Fury can cancel his Outwit after Moony has Mind Control of Panther with a successful roll. I know that you can't Outwit in the middle of an action, but can you turn off Outwit in the middle of an action?

My head is starting to hurt a little...

[melon_head]

As others have said you can use BP's outwit if you turn off Nick Fury's after he outwits the outwit and before the Moonie makes the MC attack. If you use it to turn off Mandarin's MC then his MC stays off until the beginning of your next turn just as if BP was your character. When it is your opponent's turn he can choose to turn of his outwit and give Mandarin his MC back but then he no longer has outwit and can not use it against you. If an outwit figure is MCed and outwit's someone it actually has two figs, one on each team, outwitted and this is perfectly legal.

Jester

[Funky Jett]

DaLuv... Moondragon's MC returns once Black Panter's Outwit has been removed (via Nick's Outwit). But since that is a power Moondragon wants to use, Nick has to cancel his own Outwit. Her MC doesn't disappear again because technically, this is a new instance of Outwit for Black Panther. Now, Moondragon can MC Black Panther and use his Outwit then.

The order is this:
Opponent's turn -
Black Panther Outwits Moondragon's MC.
Your turn -
Nick Fury Outwit's Panther's Outwit.
Nick Cancels own Outwit, giving Moondragon her MC back AND gives Black Panther a new instance of Outwit.
Moondragon is able to MC Black Panther and use his 'new' Outwit.

Fishman, having a power Outwitted is different than turning a power on or off. If it is Outwitted, it is no longer on the dial. I don't believe anyone can make use of it if it has been Outwitted.

[NateTG]

Powers can be turned off at any time, even in the middle of actions. I expect that the starting post is suggesting the following:

Turn 1: Black Panther outwits Moondragon's Mind Control.
Turn 2:
a. Nick Fury (or anyone) Outwits Black Panther's outwit, so Mind Control returns to Moondragon.
b. Moondragon makes a Mind Control attack on Black Panther. After the attack hits, but before BP takes his action, the player turns off Nick Fury's Outwit, so Black Panther's Outwit returns, since outwitted powers return immediately when Outwit is lost. Since Panther was Outwitting Moondragon's Mind Control, Moondragon no longer has Mind Control.
Now we have several options:
The Mind Control action ends immediately since Mind Control is no longer available.
or
The Mind Control action continues since it was already started.
or
When Outwit is outwitted, it ceases affecting other figures and returns, it does not start affecting other figures untill it is used.

For me, the third option is the best choice here. Otherwise any number of Outwit-Outwit scenarios can be made to cause actions to become illegal in mid action. If the third option is taken, then the answers is "Black Pantherr can Outwit Mandarin".

[NateTG]

Originally posted by melon_head
As others have said you can use BP's outwit if you turn off Nick Fury's after he outwits the outwit and before the Moonie makes the MC attack.

The MC attack cannot take place if BP's returning outwit takes MC away from Moondragon.

If you use it to turn off Mandarin's MC then his MC stays off until the beginning of your next turn just as if BP was your character. When it is your opponent's turn he can choose to turn of his outwit and give Mandarin his MC back but then he no longer has outwit and can not use it against you.

AFAIK players can turn powers off at any time, including during their opponent's turn, so the BP player can turn off Outwit immediately following the MC action and recver his power then.

[NateTG]

Regarding the return of Lost Outwit:

Consider the example of Batman:

Turn 1: Batman outwits my Thing's Invulnerability.
Turn 2: I fly in my V Whirlwind and smack Batman. He looses Outwit and goes to CCE. Thing's Invulnerability returns. Whirlwind Smacks Batman again, and Batman regains Outwit. Since he's lost outwit, Thing's power stays even through Outwit returned.

[ScrewTape]

My guess would be:

NF outwits BP, and MD regains MC. Then NF turns off his outwit and BP regains it. I believe at this point BP's outwit has been "reset" and therefore MD still has MC and BP has outwit. MD can then MC BP and use his outwit. I think it is all kind of moot because as soon as the MC is over BP can just turn off his own outwit and undo whatever it was that he did while under the charms of MD.

[Psylockeslover]

I wanna change my vote to "My head hurts".....

[A_Higher_Level]

Originally posted by melon_head
As others have said you can use BP's outwit if you turn off Nick Fury's after he outwits the outwit and before the Moonie makes the MC attack. If you use it to turn off Mandarin's MC then his MC stays off until the beginning of your next turn just as if BP was your character. When it is your opponent's turn he can choose to turn of his outwit and give Mandarin his MC back but then he no longer has outwit and can not use it against you. If an outwit figure is MCed and outwit's someone it actually has two figs, one on each team, outwitted and this is perfectly legal.

Jester

Won't work in this situation. Moondragon MC's Black Panther and Moondragon wants to use his Outwitted Outwit. MC is considered an action until it's completion. To cancel Nick Fury's Outwit would be interrupting one action with another, and we all know that is not allowed. To cancel the Outwit beforehand would not give Moondragon the ability to MC Black Panther, and to cancel it afterwards would mean that Moondragon's action is now complete and she can no longer 'control' Black Panther to use his Outwit.

[Mr. Pilkington]

I wanna change my vote to "My head hurts".....

Only if I get to change my vote too. Man, I just *hate* Outwit. :confused:

[Psylockeslover]

Mr. P........Your avatar.....thats me....

[DaLuvster89]

I withheld my vote until I read a little bit.
My head is pounding now! j/k

It's times like these that I really miss that one guy - what was his name? Oh yeah, Tsannik... :disappoin

[NateTG]

Originally posted by A_Higher_Level
Won't work in this situation. Moondragon MC's Black Panther and Moondragon wants to use his Outwitted Outwit. MC is considered an action until it's completion. To cancel Nick Fury's Outwit would be interrupting one action with another, and we all know that is not allowed. To cancel the Outwit beforehand would not give Moondragon the ability to MC Black Panther, and to cancel it afterwards would mean that Moondragon's action is now complete and she can no longer 'control' Black Panther to use his Outwit.
Turning off a power is not an action, and can be done at any time.

[DaLuvster89]

But activating a power like Outwit isn't an action, and that can't be done in the middle of an action...

[DaLuvster89]

That's just where I'm hung up on the whole thing...

[Canada Maestro]

You don't have to do anything mid-action, if the situation at the beginning of the turn is Nightwing has Mandarin's mind control outwitted:
- Nick Fury outwits Nightwing's outwit (Mandarin's MC comes back)
- Nick Fury turns off his outwit, Nightwing's outwit returns but Mandarin's MC stays (the power has to be actively outwitted, so once it's back it stays back until it is outwitted again).
- Mandarin can now MC Nightwing and use his outwit.

If Nick Fury didn't turn off his outwit then Nightwing's outwit is considered not on his dial and Mandarin would not have access to it.

[CaptainCarl]

ok to get this straight my guess and yes it is a guess but a guess based on experience on different accounts not all at the same time


Moondragon MC Blackpanther who does not have outwit since it was outwitted so now he is a friendly fig

unfortunately Nick fury cannot turn his outwit power of until BP finishes up his action and once its finished he no longer is part of your team

so you cannot use BP outwit

that is how i would guess at it but whose to say im right but logically since flash cannot run B2B then use outwit then hypersonic you have to use it beginning of turn or end of turn same with turning a power on and off BP has to finish his action before Nickfury can turn of outwit

thats my 10 cents

thecaptain

my head hurts.....

[Canada Maestro]

My head hurts too, I'm trying to explain some MC examples over email to a friend (hence the Nightwing reference). But if Mandarin can get access to Black Panther's outwit, you just have to turn off Nick Fury's outwit before Mandarin declares his mind control action. Otherwise it's not available.

[DaLuvster89]

Take Mandarin as an example. Let's say that he Outwits Thing's Charge. Then Mandarin takes a Perplexed up 7 clicker, putting him on his last click. I was under the impression that Thing's Charge stays Outwitted. I just searched a bit for a reference here, but I'm sure I read it somewhere on this site.

Can anyone confirm for sure if this is a correct assumption?

If this is the case, then in this threads' example, as soon as Fury cancells his Outwit, BP's Outwit returns and Moondragon's MC is still Outwitted.

[Canada Maestro]

In that case, Mandarin never actually lost outwit. He went straight from one click to another and kept outwit. It's not like he spent any time on the in-between clicks, the damage was instantaneous.

[DaLuvster89]

O.K. , so that's cleared up for me. There's a difference between one attack putting Mandarin on Outwit as opposed to two seperate attacks where he lands in the middle.

My next question in getting to the bottom of this issue:
Fury Outwits Panther's Outwit, then immediately Fury turns off his Outwit. Does this definately cause Panther's Outwit to "reset", or does the Power originally Outwitted by Panther return when Panther's Outwit returns?

I'm just not sure that Fury can "turn off" Outwit just like that...

From the PAC:

"Once during your turn, this character may “turn off” a super power on a target character; treat the target as if it does not have the cancelled power. That power remains cancelled until the beginning of your next turn. This character must be within 10 squares of the target and have a clear line of fire to that figure. Instead of a power, you may choose to cancel a fl ying figure’s ability to soar. The soaring figure is considered to be hovering for that turn. If this character loses Outwit or is defeated, the cancelled power returns immediately. This power does not cost an action to use."

Although it does say that Outwit is Optional, it also says this: "That power remains cancelled until the beginning of your next turn. "

?

[Canada Maestro]

The first part, Fury turns off Panther's outwit so it's gone, Mandarin's power is back. Fury turns off his own outwit and Panther's outwit is back on. It doesn't matter how long he does it for, it's gone and Mandarin's power comes back.

As well, optional powers (such as outwit) can be turned off at any time (except in mid-action). And it says if the character loses outwit (the same as turning it off) then the power comes back (this is also supported in the FAQ where they mention a character having outwit turned off and the power coming back).

[Funky Jett]

Canada Maestro has this down pat. I leave the discussion in his capable hands (so I can go take an aspirin). ;)

[DaLuvster89]

Right... But I'm wondering about Panther re-gaining Outwit at all. Outwit may be optional like SuperSterngth is optional - once you pick up an object, it can't be dropped. Once something is Outwitted, it is Outwitted until the end of your turn. Optional to use, but it's effect isn't optional to turn off...

[Canada Maestro]

There's no limitation on outwit. In fact, from the FAQ:
'If a figure loses or "turns off" Outwit for any reason, any power currently being "Outwitted" is immediately reactivated'

Edit: Get me one too Funky... actually, I think I need two.

[NateTG]

WARNING: Quote out of context.
Originally posted by Canada Maestro
...As well, optional powers (such as outwit) can be turned off at any time (except in mid-action). ..
Is that in the FAQ or somewhere else?

Because the FAQ entry I see is:

Optional Powers
If a power is listed as optional, then it can be turned off at any time.

Which would include turning powers off mid-action.

[Canada Maestro]

I'm headed out the door right now so I'll have to check after I get home. I know there's been a lot of posts saying that once an action is committed it must be resolved before anything else can happen but I don't have a definite answer as to where this ruling is from.

[DaLuvster89]

Thanks for your thoughts, CM. It's definately opened my eyes to some things I didn't know!

[Canada Maestro]

In regards to not being able to turn off a power mid-action, I'll admit I can't find anything in the FAQ or rulebook that says this specifically. The best I can do is refer to the actions section and say that an action can only consist of the given actions and must be completed before the next thing is done.

Other than that, I can point to several times where judges on HCRealms or Wizkids say that you can't. Perhaps there's a judge out there who could HELP! :)

[NateTG]

Originally posted by Canada Maestro
[B]In regards to not being able to turn off a power mid-action, I'll admit I can't find anything in the FAQ or rulebook that says this specifically. The best I can do is refer to the actions section and say that an action can only consist of the given actions and must be compleated before the next thing is done.[B]
Fair enough. Turning powers/abilities off mid-action has implications for Stealth and Probability Control -- it has mattered in games that I've played.

[Canada Maestro]

Originally posted by NateTG
Fair enough. Turning powers/abilities off mid-action has implications for Stealth and Probability Control -- it has mattered in games that I've played.

Yeah, it's mattered quite a few times for me as well. I've posted a question on the wizkids site asking for clarification and I'm hoping to either get the attention of DrG or some other judge on there. Hopefully they can help. I kinda wish I had access to the judges' forum to see if there's anything there.

As soon as I hear something I'll let you know.

[Canada Maestro]

Originally posted by Canada Maestro
As soon as I hear something I'll let you know.

I think NateTG probably saw some of this on the wizkids site but I'll post my understanding of the responses I've been getting (at least the one I'm most satisfied with). Basically, there is no such time as "mid-action". An action is an instantaneous moment held in time while the players resolve what happened. Therefor, nothing can be done mid-action as it really doesn't exist.

Probability control is a special occurrence where the player doesn't like the outcome of the action and resets time to be before the action started.

Now if only I could find out when they are going to fix the FF team ability to reflect this (in reference to the "erroneous" line in the FAQ which states a wildcard can get the FF ability provided they switch before damage is taken).

Sorry I couldn't be of more help but I'm kinda tired of harrassing the judges.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Canada Maestro
Yeah, it's mattered quite a few times for me as well. I've posted a question on the wizkids site asking for clarification and I'm hoping to either get the attention of DrG or some other judge on there. Hopefully they can help. I kinda wish I had access to the judges' forum to see if there's anything there.
There's nothing in the Judges Forum about this. For clarification, I will ask and report back with any answers. Now, for MY clarification, you are asking about when you can optionally turn off powers and/or abilities. If so, these are really two separate questions. Team abilities act differently than super powers. This is why the Human Torch can carry a SHIELD member on a Running Shot, then drop him and then get the benefit of the SHIELD's +1 damage even though it's in mid-action.

Let me know if I am asking the right question, and I will post it for an answer.

[Funky Jett]

That's what happens when I start a response, go away from my laptop for a while, then post with out looking first. Nevermind... ;)

[Xavier PhD]

ummm all right i voted... whats the answer?

[Canada Maestro]

If the situation stays as stated in the initial question, Moondragon would not have access to BP's outwit because Nick Fury's outwit makes it so he's treated as though he doesn't have it. However, if Nick Fury turned off his outwit after outwitting BP (and before Moondragon's mind control) then she could use it (but this also means that BP will be able to use his outwit on his turn).

[matthe]

Umm, I would like to bring in another fact, in case they did rememebr to turn off Fury's Outwit.

Faq : "Outwit cannot be used in the middle of an action"
"Mind Control assigns an action to an opposing fig."

So, since there is an action being assigned to an opposing fig, how could this fig mindcontrol. Since the assignment of an action has already happened, it would mean that it would be in the middle of an action. And, since the Faq also says "Mind Control ends as soon as the action is completed." then you couldn't outwit afterwards because the effects of mind control are no longer a factor.

[Canada Maestro]

Mind control is considered a special case (evidence of this is that another action is taking place during an action). The fact that it states "all its powers and abilities are at the controller's disposal" implies they can do whatever they want with them (including using outwit) during this time.

You do have a good point that there is a loophole that someone could try and argue and this should be fixed but I think the ruling stands that you can use the mind controlled character's outwit or perplex (and maybe there's some other powers like these I'm missing).

[matthe]

I always assumed it meant abilities such as running shot, or CCE, or those kinds of abilitities. Technically, you could also say that impervious is at the controlling players disposal, but then again, this is an ability that only activates when an attack has been assigned. Does it imply, then, that you could say "I'm going to activate impervious."? No, it doesn't. It is very poorly worded. You can, however, turn off Impervious because you can turn off optional powers at any time. It just means that you can use whatever powers that they could use while they are moving, or at least that is how I would interpret it.

[matthe]

How is there an "other" option on this survey?

[Canada Maestro]

As we've already discussed in this thread, you can not turn off powers mid-action as there has been ruled to be no such time. So, from your logic you wouldn't be able to turn off impervious since Mandarin's action is still being resolved.

But having said that, it's been ruled over and over that MC is a special case where outwit and perplex are available to be used before the MCed character's action is taken and the MCer can also choose to have the character turn off abilities prior to the action as well. The very fact that another action is occurring before Mandarin's is resolved (the nature of MC) leads us to this special scenario.

As for the "other" option, I suppose "who really cares?" could be the "other"... or "I'm waiting for someone to clarify this mess for me before I make my final decision"... or "someone should beat double_a for creating this mess and then running away". There are several "other" options. :)

[matthe]

I'm glad to know that when the FAQ said "If a power is 'optional,' then the controlling player can cancel the power at any time." that it lied to me.

I think the reason why I am disagreeing with you is because of the assumption being made that there is a breif pause between the action of the mind control and the other person taking their action. I have never seen anyplace where this is implied, outside of the "all its powers and abilities are at the controller's disposal," which I have a differing opinion on. I see mine as being the stronger argument, especially since that is what a lot of the players I play with have been assuming. Of course, I am sure you have similar reasos for yours being a stronger argument, but the fact that this is based on assumptions that are derived from a single sentence.

Also, now that I am looking at this sentence closer, you haev taken it out of context which is very important. It says "When a figure is Mind Controlled, all its powers and abilities are at the controller's disposal, even if the controlling player had turned off optional powers before the Mind Control attack." With the implication of that sentence, it seems to almost directly tell me that powers that I could use for the action an ability that you turned off so that I couldn't use it. For example, if I turned of my Desaad's EE, then you MC'd him, You could still use EE to shoot the medic bordering my Darkseid, even though I turned it off.

Also, don't all of those "other"s you listed generally fall under "My head hurts?"

[Canada Maestro]

Ok, it didn't lie to you. It's been ruled that there is no such "time" as mid action. It's an instant that is prolonged while players resolve the action. I was confused on it as well and brought it up on the wizkids forums (where I got the answer that there was no such time). Hopefully it will be spelled out better at some point.

And you aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the judges and as far as I know, the rules arbitrator. You can search through the forums (or the ones on wizkids if you have access to them) for yourself, judges have said that a mind controlled character's outwit can be used provided it's before the action is taken. I think a few judges have even said so in this thread (even double_a's question implies that outwit would be accessible had Nick Fury not outwitted it).

As for the sentence being taken out of context, I don't see it that way but I'm not gonna bother arguing about it. Like I said, that's the way I've seen it ruled over and over and that's the way I see it. If you don't agree with that then I'm guessing nothing I say will change your mind.

And as for the head hurts, no, they may not included in the "my head hurts". Hating double_a does not make your head hurt. Try it for yourself if you like.

[double_a]

Hi guys,

I didn't run away - I just wanted to see what the general concensus would be on this "loophole" situation. I didn't want to influence the results one way or another. Plus, this was meant to be fun by examining weird situations that occur in Heroclix.
As it happens, the opinions seems to be split almost 50/50 on what is allowed and what isn't. Also, as usual, questions like this bring up other situations and rules that players were not aware of.

Here's what I know about this situation:

1) Moondragon can in fact use Panther's Outwit during her Mind Control. "When a figure is Mind Controlled, all its powers and abilities are at the controller's disposal, even if the controlling player had turned off optional powers before the Mind Control attack."

2) This MC outwit constitutes a second instance of Outwit that is seperate from Panther's normal use of Outwit. If Panther had used Outwit and was then MCed, he could conceivably have 2 outwits working at the same time. Moondragon can only use this Outwit BEFORE she assigns the action to Panther (otherwise that breaks the mid-action rule). She can't use Outwit after the assigned action since Panther immediately becomes an opponent at that point.

3) Moondragon's outwit will last until it's Player2's turn again.

Here's the weird part:

4) Player1 can't turn off Moondragon's outwit since he "officially" does not have it due to Nick Fury's initial outwit. This is the loophole created by competing rules (Mind Control & Outwit).

According to Outwit it lasts until it's your turn again or you lose outwit (no longer on dial, turned off or outwitted) but Mind Control states you can use all the powers. The only way to reconcile is to allow Moondragon a temporary Outwit that is considered seperate from the intitial Panther outwit that was itself Outwitted by Nick Fury.

So there you go. This of course is not official and would require the good doctor to clarify but according to the rules as I understand it, this is how it would work.

Cheers. :devious:

BTW Head hurts meant you gave up; Other meant you had a solution that was not offered by my choices.

[Canada Maestro]

If that's the way it is, it doesn't make sense to me. Here's my take on your first bullet:

1) Although Moondragon should have access to all his powers, even those that are turned off by him, outwit says to treat the character as though they don't have the power and as well, the clause for powers that were turned off specifically states that they were turned off my the character himself, not outwitted by someone else. I can't see this as the same thing. In one case he has the power but has chosen not to use it, in the other he doesn't have the power (as you specify in your 4th bullet).

But if that's the official ruling given by DrG I guess I'll have to abide by it and concede that I was in error in my response that she could not use it unless Nick Fury relinquished his outwit.

Is this before DrG at the moment?

And as for the "other" options, beating up a judge isn't seen as another option? Since when?

[double_a]

I'll make sure to add "Beat up judge" in the future. ;)

I'll also make sure this is put this on Doctor Gandalf's table to verify my answer. He has not ruled on this situation one way or the other as far as I know.

BTW Canada Maestro I highly respect your answers and arguments (I thought of a lot of the same things when coming across this problem). You obviously know the rules very well - keep the great work.

[HeroComplex]

For the record, my vote of "Other" was meant to represent "Ha, you expect the answer to this question to be encapsulated in a one-line response? Sometimes you slay me, double_a!"

[Nevest]

I'm an aspiring judge. I would rule that the MC power reactivates all powers on the MCed figure. It's been clarified before that when a MCed figure uses Outwit that it actually creates a second occurrence of the power that the opponent has no control over. They could not therefor simply turn the power off after your MC action to cancel what you did. I would say that Moondragon can use Panther's Outwit and that it will work until the beginning of her next turn. I don't see any need for Fury to turn off his Outwit based on the wording of the Mind Control power. Even if he did turn his Outwit off and BP regained his Outwit then Moondragon would keep her Mind Control because it would be a new instance of the Outwit power for BP.

[Canada Maestro]

Originally posted by Nevest
It's been clarified before that when a MCed figure uses Outwit that it actually creates a second occurrence of the power that the opponent has no control over. They could not therefor simply turn the power off after your MC action to cancel what you did.

Am I understanding this correctly because I take this to mean that (ignoring the above scenario) you have Panther outwit someone's power, I then mind control Panther and have him outwit one of your powers that you can not cancel the outwit I did in any way? If this is the case then I think you are incorrect. Several judges have said that if you have Panther turn off his outwit then both outwits are negated.

At least HeroComplex ruled this way here:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39444&perpage=15&display=&highlight=mind%20control%20outwit&pagenumber=2

But maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

[Nevest]

Hmm, would seem HeroComplex is saying that you can use their Outwit but then they can just turn it off immediately after the action to undo what you did. To me that just seems wrong, they shouldn't have control over what their figure did when it was under your control. As I said, I'm an aspiring judge, not a real one, so it's very possible that I'm wrong. I stick by my ruling as being logical but I trust that HeroComplex is probably right.

[double_a]

First off, I guess I get to eat some crow. I really thought "all powers" meant ALL powers however I do concede that the doctor's ruling makes things easier in the long run.
I'll just have to make sure player's are aware that Outwitted powers are not available even in a Mind Control situation.

I'd also like to thank Canada_Maestro for calling this the way it should be - good job Maestro!

It should be pretty straightforward in this case, per Outwit "treat the target as if it does not have the cancelled power." Mind control does not suddenly grant the figure powers it "doesn't have."

double_a wrote on 06-02-2003 05:18 PM:
Thanks doc for the prompt reply.
So from your answer the FAQ statement: "When a figure is Mind Controlled, all its powers and abilities are at the controller’s disposal, even if the owning player had turned off optional ones before the MC attack." only applies to non-outwitted powers? This entry seems pretty emphatic that there are no restrictions (but your answer makes resolving this type of situation easier).
If so then perhaps this should also be reflected in the next FAQ.

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DrGandalf wrote on 06-02-2003 04:33 PM:
Well, confusing as heck, but here's what would happen, Moondragon Mind Controls Black Panther, (who has had his Outwit, Outwitted) terefore, unless you were to cancel Fury's Outwit, you wouldn't be able to use Panthers', because he currently doesn't have it.(It's Outwitted.)

If you went full circle, and turned off Fury's outwit, so that panther regains Outwit, you could use that power whele Moondragon controls him. Once Player 1 starts his turn, he could have Panther turn off his (optional) Outwit, and would not be able to use it for the remainder of the turn.

Either that or my head will explode..

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