Topps to Acquire WizKids

[Draddog]

<P><B>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE</B><H3 ALIGN="CENTER">Topps to Acquire WizKids</H3><P>JUNE 23, 2003 (SEATTLE) — Today, The Topps Company, the trading card, collectibles, and confectionary company, announced it is acquiring Wizkids, LLC (“WizKids”), a privately held designer and marketer of collectible strategy games, headquartered in Bellevue, Washington. WizKids’ current games include <I>Mage Knight, HeroClix,</I> and <I>MechWarrior</I>, all of which utilize collectible miniature figures with a patent-pending “combat dial” that encodes relevant game information in the base of each piece.<P>Topps Chairman and CEO, Arthur T. Shorin said, “The acquisition of WizKids represents an important step in our strategy for growing the Entertainment segment of the business as it provides efficient entry to the growing collectible games market. Founded in 2000, WizKids enjoys a strong reputation for its innovative game design, effective marketing skills, and high-level customer care. In addition to the existing product line, there is a healthy pipeline of new games in development.” He added, “Joining forces with WizKids will enhance the licensing reach of both companies and will further leverage Topps brand franchises. We look forward to welcoming the management and employees of WizKids to the Topps family.” <P> Jordan Weisman, WizKids’ co-founder and CEO, will be responsible for the day-to-day management of WizKids and its 95 employees. Mr. Weisman, 43, has been one of the gaming industry’s most successful and prolific designers over 20 years. He will report directly to Scott Silverstein, EVP and head of Topps Entertainment Division. <P> Mr. Weisman commented, “We are delighted to join with Topps and look forward to enhancing the Company’s product offerings with the addition of collectible strategy games. With the support of Topps resources, its distribution know-how, industry presence, and brands, we are excited to realize the full value of our game products and to play a role in the successful evolution of Topps entertainment lines.” <P>WizKids manufactures and distributes “collectable miniatures games,” a category of tabletop strategy game invented by Weisman in 1999, and now played in 56 countries all over the world. To date, the company has sold more than 100 million toy figures under the game brands Mage Knight™, MechWarrior®, and HeroClix™. <P> The latest game to bear WizKids’ imaginative stamp is Shadowrun® Duels, which hits store shelves this month. Shadowrun combines full-sized action figures with a complete set of tabletop “combat” rules, combining imaginative play and rules-based game play. In September, WizKids is launching Creepy Freaks™ the Gross-Out 3-D Trading Game that combines the collectability of card games with the tabletop strategy of a miniatures game. It is also the first WizKids title designed exclusively for kids. <P> For additional information on WizKids, visit www.wizkidsgames.com.

[Funky Jett]

WOW!!! That is amazing... At least I've been collecting Topps football cards for over 10 years. I'm used to their stuff. Absolutely shocking! And amazing!

[GeorgeDaGreat]

Uhhhh...I am sorry and I don't mean to sound stupid or anything but what does the above mean?

I really didn't understand.

Thanks.:classic:

[Greyshadow]

Wow - who saw this coming? Interesting. I immediately wonder whether this is effect gameplay or simply distribution - ???

[Rottgutt]

More information on it from Yahoo's finance page:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030623/nym185_1.html

[Mayberry Bat]

As picky as DC is with their liscencing I wonder what this means for further sets outside of whatever existing contracts have to be honored.

[freakazoid_x]

Yeah, I am curious what this means for future sets. What does this mean for Indy? Will this draw away companies from Indy, or attract more?

What about Marvel and DC? Marvel is the only one I'd be terrified to lose. What does this mean?

[Deathlok23]

Well, how interesting. I think that SportsClix is pretty much guaranteed at this point. Tops has all the connections to professional sports licenses, the one thing WK didn't have a lot of clout/experience in aquiring. I just hope this doesn't lead to mass firing as when Hasbro purchased WOTC. Is Jordan Weisman now the Bill Gates of gamedom or what (and I mean real rich guy and not greedy bastitch)?

[PantherPriest]

Wow, well this is interesting.

[Death]

well I know what I'm going to do tomorrow morning! Buy topps stock. TOPP I know that this will only help topps in the long run. Or at least one would think. I'm happy of this move because it gives the gaming industry a lot more power. And I'm happy because I now can own a piece of something I enjoy.

[Death]

Yeah and sportsclix is almost a guarantee especially because wizkids already has a patent on the name

[scowlingone]

This is not good.

When a publicly-traded company has bought into the hobby market, no good has ever come out of it.

There becomes exactly one goal: create value for the shareholders. This means that we will see fewer experimental games (like Crimson Skies) and a glut of the more successful lines (think Mechwarrior release are fast now? Just you wait.)

This also, essentially, confirms SportsClix as being the next big push.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that Topps will run their new acquisition into the ground and Weisman will be able to buy back his babies (Battletech and Shadowrun) some years down the road.

[GammaBomb]

I wonder if they'll start throwin in a stick of gum in booster packs.

Makes me a little edgy about how Topps will handle this. I can see this being good or ending in fire...

And for the safety of the future, I seriously hope Sportsclix or something like it never happen...

[KaiserSelroc]

This is the beginning of the end people....

R.I.P. Wizkids

Cause of death, corporate greed.

[Thunderbolts]

Topps give even less of a #### about this country than Wizkids do. Guh, with this and the lack of play in the past 2 months, and now the UK Cosmic Justice delay, I'm wondering if I'm putting too much into this hobby and getting nothin' out. >_<

[Hadez]

Hmm........................


Heaven on earth?

Or

Total Armaggedon?



Only time will tell....And I hope nothing happen to Heroclix!

And I don't want Sportsclix! (Imagine: Thor being taken out by a 10 damage Unique Mark McGuire!)

[CquinnO27]

####, that is a bit disappointing. It could mean that Marvel will pull out and try it's own game system.
However if Marvel does not, it means we could all own a little bit of the wizkids pie.
Topps trades on the NASDAQ under TOPP, it was down .19 today selling at 8.56 a share.

I would think that the stock would rocket, considering how profitable WizKids has been.
I guess it all depends on what Marvel and DC do.

[Yeti_dude]

When Hasbro acquired WotC there were mass-firings, but under Hasbro, Wizards manage to grow the game substantially. This is not to say that Topps won't try to meddle with Wizkids' properties, but in the long run I think this can only be a good thing for the clix community if only because of greater distribution and exposure to the game.

Particularly encouraging is the fact that the article does not mention any trimming of the staff or shuffling of the chain of comman within Wizkids.

[CquinnO27]

here is something else I found that is not too great. According to Topps investor information page, they list themselves as
"Topps is an international marketer of entertainment products, principally collectible trading cards, confections, sticker collections, and comic books."

It is that last bit about comic books that has me worried.
I am not too sure if Marvel or DC would want another company that would be a competitor having they type of control and revenue Wizkids has over their characters.

this whole thing It is beginning to look ####ty.
:disappoin

[CquinnO27]

If Marvel and DC do pull out, get on ebay and buy as many LEs as you can. because the prices of those babys will sky rocket

[scowlingone]

According to the linked article, WK had $33M in net revenues in 2002, and was purchased for $29.5M in cash.

Topps will want to recoup that investment within five years, by any means necessary. The $33M is revenue; it's not profit. We don't know what their profits have been, but it's a good bet that it's somewhere around $6.5M.

So Topps is hoping that WK will actually show more profit in the next five years than it has in the last couple of years. This, in my mind, is unrealistic, but it also underlines why Weisman would be willing to sell.

The hobby market is both faddish and cyclical. WizKids is going to see hugely increased competition in the collectible miniatures segment of the hobby. Their licenses for Heroclix are rumoured to be nearly over. MageKnight sales are slipping.

But, still, Topps is going to want to recoup their investment, by any means necessary.

So we can probably expect to see WizKids operating business-as-usual for a year or two, and then see the kinds of things that Hasbro has done with WotC: paring back to essentials, rapid release of predictably-selling products, seriously reduced R&D, and the loss of key licenses (just as Hasbro lost the Pokemon license, don't expect Marvel and DC to sell a license renewal cheaply).

There's really no upside to any of this except that Weisman and any private investors and shareholders are now rich as Croesus. This much, I'm happy to see. You go, man.

[tidge]

This explains why the WizKids website has been so busy today...

My personal belief is that Topps is positioning itself for 1 of 2 things:

1) Topps is positioning itself to be purchased/merge with either: Marvel or Hasbro.

2) Topps is trying to get into a position to purchase (some divisons) or merge with AOL-Time-Warner.

[hair10]

Originally posted by CquinnO27
It is that last bit about comic books that has me worried.
I am not too sure if Marvel or DC would want another company that would be a competitor having they type of control and revenue Wizkids has over their characters.


I don't think Marvel or DC worry too much about Topps comic books. Even in the "indy" market, they were a very minor publisher.

On a whole, this has me very worried. I think it will only be a matter of time before the "corporate" nature of Topps kicks in and things such as prize support, customer service, etc go out the window. I hope I'm wrong. :ermm:

[tidge]

After review the Yahoo News release, I'm convinced that Topps is hoping for a future merger. The financial facts of $114 Million (cash on hand) and zero debt make Topps a good candidate.

[ThePope]

I love the doom and gloom guys. If it wasn't for them, my life would seem really sad. Thanks to these guys putting it into perspective, I now know that my life isn't nearly as bad as theirs.

I say wait until something happens before complaining about it.

Sean
+<|:-)

[1164]

If all future clix licensing acqusition costs go to the very expensive sports franchises none will be leftover for the niche comicbook-fan market. Then when/if that idea tanks Topps will pull all clix items and say, "Well, we're more of a collectible card company anyway" and bury the whole clix system under a pile of corporate blather never to be seen again.

Or maybe not....

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by CquinnO27
If Marvel and DC do pull out, get on ebay and buy as many LEs as you can. because the prices of those babys will sky rocket

No, they will plummet. Once any expandable game is no longer supported, it is only a matter of time before the player base shrinks to a negligible point.

The microsecond I hear that the licenses have not been renewed, I'm selling everything, and I might buy it back a year later for pennies on the dollar.

More likely that I'd just buy into the new game from whomever does buy the licenses.

Tidge writes:
Topps is trying to get into a position to purchase (some divisons) or merge with AOL-Time-Warner.

Topps isn't big enough to purchase AOL-Time Warner's mail room or secretarial pool.

[SLAYER X]

If topps did merge with aol we may see marvel pull out and vice versa, right now the game is made by a third party company that doe not have ties to one or the other but that would change.

[Phantom]

They might be able to purchase some letterhead.

I’m wary of this. On the one hand, it may be good for Wizkids. On the other hand, WotC really became deplorable after they sold themselves to Hasbro.

In the meantime, maybe we can look forward to a future Clix expansion that will finally answer the question once and for all: Can Ichiro beat the Hulk?

[KidInTheHelmet]

YES! This is great news, I can finally get that Super Pro clix that I've wanted.

That was sarcasm, in case anyone wondered.

I can see this as being great news or turning out really bad. As for sports clix i don't think we'll have to worry about anyone using their Bo Jackson or Sammy Sosa to take on you skrull army. It'll probably be a seprate game entirely.

[TheOneRob]

Well this sucks.

Sports cards companies are total #####s. Just look at how UpperDeck screws Yu-I-O (sp?) players. They pay like 3.99 for an 8 card booster pack, and the retailer discount is significantly less then for other products.

[shadbow]

Well, I hope this will help them to aquire larger licenses.

And actually, as much as I deplore Hasbro at times...

maybe Hasbro will purchase Topps....

because I would love to see some Star Wars clix, GI Joe clix, and even Transformer mechwarrior like clix.

those would all sell well.

-shad

[CquinnO27]

Originally posted by scowlingone
No, they will plummet. Once any expandable game is no longer supported, it is only a matter of time before the player base shrinks to a negligible point.


Well, for collectors it may be a different view. Those who do not play often or at all, and only collect, I would think the LE's would be a bit harder to find. Especially if Wizkids will no longer be able to produce them.
just one scenario/view on the whole messy topic.

[Baron_Thing]

I'm so having WOTC/Hasbro flashbacks. . . It's not even funny.
So long as Topps doesn't see WK as some sort of magic money making machine, and doesn't turn it into a scapegoat the way Hasbro did WOTC, things should be fine.
Any time Hasbro has had poor fiscal showings, it's been blamed on the WOTC line. First it was the cost of reorganization, then it was Pokemon didn't perform as expected, then it was Harry Potter's fault. . . Sheesh. Works up my acid reflux just remembering the days when I used to work for them.
So long as Topps realizes WK is a niche company in a niche market, things will be fine. But if they start acquiring questionable and expensive licenses, churning out #### games, and chopping off heads when they fail, things will get ugly, fast.

[Braden]

My favorite reaction has to go to all those people who are like oh no TOPPS will just be out for money.
As if WizKids makes the game for a loss, or just to break even.
People act like Whizkids is their best friend (except when a new set comes out, then WhizKids is out to get them) while TOPPS will sneak in their room at night to steal their change.

I doubt this will have any real effect on the game outside of how it is promoted.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by ThePope
I love the doom and gloom guys. If it wasn't for them, my life would seem really sad. Thanks to these guys putting it into perspective, I now know that my life isn't nearly as bad as theirs.

No, believe me. Your life isn't nearly as good as mine.

[redskindavyd]

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm having a very uneasy feeling that this sale is not a good idea for us heroclix fans. Fells like when Marvel bought Malibu and Acclaim bought Valiant. They all ended up VERY bad for the fans of the companies that were sold. :(

[CquinnO27]

well, Marvel and DC aside, if Topps and Hasbro can broker a deal and we start seeing G.I. Joe/Transformers/Star Wars clicks, then the stock of Topps should assuredly shoot up.
buying now at 8.56 a share could be a #### nice steal.

[Thunderbolts]

then it was Pokemon didn't perform as expected

Teh, like the card game was ever marketed properly in the West anyway. 'OMG a holofoil per three boostarz!!' made mass buying popular for about 3 months, then people felt ripped off. Good call, Wizards. You got much better value in the JPN packs.

:O

[shin-goji]

Ok, let's all prepare for the worst and hope for the best. We all know this will probably end badly, but let's really try to keep level heads. I know this sounds bad coming from me, but the game is enjoyable ### is, let's hope for a bright future.

[ThePope]

Originally posted by scowlingone
No, believe me. Your life isn't nearly as good as mine.
I doubt that, but assuming you might have me their, at least I'm not bemoaning the end of clixistence.

Happy to have what I have, not what I don't,

Sean
+<|:-)

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by ThePope
Happy to have what I have, not what I don't,

Isn't this a contradiction for anyone who plays a collectible game?

In any case, I've seen no 'bemoaning'.

And my life's better than yours and any three people you know, combined. :)

[Quade]

This is amazingly good news...really it is.

[Trihorn]

I was thinking..... would this slow down the arrival of Cosmic Jucetics and Shadowrun?? Or has CJ come out already....don't keep tracvk of DC.

[freakazoid_x]

Look with the buyout we have to hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. First the worst.

This may be the swansong for Heroclix, it's okay none of us were operating under the impression that it was going to last forever. We still have the game pieces and stuff. We can still play, just no new stuff will come out. That sucks but there is still two promised sets coming before the potential end. Indy and a Marvel set in November. Not to mention the immenent release of Cosmic Justice. so we'll get a good run before the end if it does come to pass.

Now for the best we can hope for. Topps hasn't printed a comic in years, they haven't been a competitor to Marvel or DC in a long time. So Marvel and DC might still renew. Also lets not forget Topps has a... Unique... universe of characters to add to the next Indy set. It's not a whole lot but the figures would be welcome as long as we still get our Marvel and DC big names. Also, last time I checked Topps was a division of Hasbro, and if I'm not mistaken, which I might be, Hasbro has the current license to Lucasfilm to make the Star Wars toys. Imagine, finally, the Star Wars clix we've all fantasized about but knew would never happen.

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Courage.

[CquinnO27]

I would think it would not affect any of the already slotted expansions. I believe the question is if Marvel will resign to another contract for wizkids to make more expansions.
I think there is at least one more planned Marvel expansion in their current contract. Could be two.

Then again there was speculation that Marvel might not resign even before Topps bought Wizkids.

[falcarrion]

I am worried too about this merger.
But lets look at the possablilties.
More leverage with contracts.
New game possabilies.
The chance for other companies to spring up with stuff for the game that Topps will not produce with agreements to do so.
Since they are a company that prints alot of stuff new maps tokens etc is almost assured.
Theres will be colletable card games turned into clixs.
Gum!
Employment oppertunies.
blank clixs so we can create own own clixs.(wishful thinking).
Homies clixs?

If this merger fails then as least I'll be able to buy the rights for cheap.

[falcarrion]

I am worried too about this merger.
But lets look at the possablilties.
More leverage with contracts.
New game possabilies.
The chance for other companies to spring up with stuff for the game that Topps will not produce with agreements to do so.
Since they are a company that prints alot of stuff new maps tokens etc is almost assured.
Theres will be colletable card games turned into clixs.
Gum!
Employment oppertunies.
blank clixs so we can create own own clixs.(wishful thinking).
Homies clixs?

If this merger fails then as least I'll be able to buy the rights for cheap.

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by scowlingone
So Topps is hoping that WK will actually show more profit in the next five years than it has in the last couple of years. This, in my mind, is unrealistic, but it also underlines why Weisman would be willing to sell.

This is the closest mention I've seen to what to me is the big short term question - why the sale? Since WizKids is a private company, Topps had to come to terms with their owners with a deal (as opposed to "simply" buying a significant amount of voting stock regardless of whether the corporate board agrees). This implies WizKids owners wanted to sell, which begs the question of why?

The obvious answer would be the dollar amount was so high the WK owners figured they could either retire, start the next "big thing", etc. Somehow this doesn't seem to wash, I don't get the feeling that the WK founders would be so quick to abandon their spawn quite yet. So the second guess becomes one of financial viability - money troubles. It may well be possible WK was looking for bigger pocket books to see things through or just avoid looming disaster, whether this would be done with the WK founders still on board with decision making capacity (which essentially would firmly prove the money problems point, otherwise why change things?) or with Topps fully in charge (basically being the same as the take the money and run possibility above), I don't know.

I do know some troubling signs have filtered from the WizKids camp over the past months - reduction of LE prize support, nixing of the Clix points concept, the online sellers pushing fire sale level clearances of DC Hypertime cases (at $150 or less by some), the artificial market pressure recently exerted by WizKids on online sellers to keep their price points closer to retail, and the recent change in product ordering policy to be a 6 month advance order requirement for all products - current or preorder (and the store manager who informed me of this change stated Xplosion was tellingly *not* available for order - essentially WizKids doesn't have it all that is left may well be all there will be, a major break from the prior multiple production run). Individually none of these say much, collectively they suggest a company that overestimated demand and overproduced product and is now dealing with large amounts of backstock and general economic downturn issues. In other words, maybe they grew too fast for too long and the bill has come due.

I won't make any conjecture regarding Topps at this point, the short term reasons for the sale interest me more than the long term health of the game (whatever may come, we've got a solid amount of material to enjoy the game with for a long time even without any new support). But I will say past big name gaming company acquisitions have often been viewed as bad signs from a gamers perspective - TSR of SPI, WotC's of 5 Rings Publishing, Hasbro of WotC and Avalon Hill, etc. Entire game lines tend to be shed in the process, often ones deserving of the axe but often ones that simply don't fit the bigger sales yard stick of the acquiring firm. And accepted standards of storyline, game play, product distribution, etc will all be subject to change. Time will tell how this one goes, but if Hasbro is a portent of things to come all I can say is what's done is done and the howls of the hobby gamers will fall silently on mainstream public focused ears. Again, we have been graced with a huge amount of HeroClix figures to keep us busy for quite a while no matter what ill may come.

[muffinlad]

With $110 million cash on hand, $120 million in combined revenue, ToppsWK becomes a very nice target for a low level buy out by AOL or Hasbro, with Hasbro having the edge due to AOL's ownership of Warner/DC (and huge cash bleed).

As for Jordan and the guys selling for 30million...right on, I say. Hope I can do the same in three years (when I am 43...)....

[fut_baller]

Well lets look at some of the positives.
UM.....Mars Attacks clix
UM........If they go huge we could end up buying Heroclix boosters at Wal-Mart @ 3 in the morning when you are needing one real bad!
UM......GI JOE clix or a GI JOE game in itself
UM.......Thats about all I see
NEGATIVES
Greed can and probably will completely destroy the game I love. Add it to all the other games I love that have gone by the wayside R.I.P.
Marvel Superheroes RPG (TSR),
OVERPOWER
Heroclix??

[ludd_gang]

Originally posted by scowlingone
No, believe me. Your life isn't nearly as good as mine.

But you're Canadian and an atheist. I've never met you and I can already diagonose the severe depression. How do you make it through the winters? :laugh: (I kid, I kid! Don't take me serious! I'm one of the few Americans that doesn't ask in a bewildered whine: "Why does everyone hate us?") :laugh:

From the mechanics standpoint, MTG is better now than it has ever been. From the marketing standpoint, well, they tried the "way too many carp rares" approach, found it doesn't work, and are starting to make more usable sets.

Sportsclix will be fascinating, if only to see whether they put the red KO's or black skulls at the end of the dial.

[PaladinKWA]

This is so sweet!

Topps buying WizKids will be a huge boon for players of all the WizKids lines: Mageknight, Mechwarrior, Heroclix, Crimson Skies, and Shadowrun.

The "BIG ANNOUNCEMENT" at Origins is obliviously going to be Sportclix. This is going to be a win/win for everyone. ToppKids will be hiring more sculptors to sculpt their Sportclix lines. This will make more sculptors available for other games. Heck, ToppKids might even buy a 3-D lifesize scanner (similar to what McFarlane uses for movie figures) to scan in Baseball, Football, and sports figures. Then the sculptors will just clean them up.

This means ToppKids will have more clout with their overseas production companies. Higher volume means lower prices and better quality.

Since Topps is a cash rich company this gives WizKids more clout to go after bigger licenses.

Don't worry about Marvel or DC or Indy guys pulling their licenses. WizKids MAKES MONEY FOR THEM. Marvel, DC, and especially the Indy guys won't turn down free money. Marvel licensed over 2,000 different products for the Spider-man Movie. Believe me, Marvel won't turn down cash. As long as WizKids is paying a licensing fee and both Marvel (DC, etc) and Wizkids are making money there will be new sets.

So hang in there guys. This is GOOD news.

[GWH05]

Well first off i must say this comes as a shock to me. Now for the reasons why i think the guy sold out to the big corporation. First off, the money. for that much money i think anyone would sell (it was like 29.7 million). Really i think he decided his stuff was hot and wasnt gonna go up in value much more so he got out while he could make a quick buck on the whole thing. Secondly maybe he knew something we dont. I.E. Marvel may not sign onto another expansion or maybe D.C. won't and he knew this would greatly affect sales. but none the less he has sold off the buisness and there aint poop we can do about it. For the future of Wizkids i dont believe much will change because it seems topps has left everyone right where they were. the co founder is now running the show which isnt bad, i mean he was before wasnt he? anyways the only major backfire i can see from this is if topps decides to meddle in things they shouldnt. like sportsclix which i have heard about on this board. that is just stupid. like HELLO what are we gonna have Barry Bonds going up against Magneto? WTF are they thinking? here comes joe montana to throw a football at Batman! and wanye gretzky is shooting at firelord! oh no watch out. anyways i think we can all come to our own conclusions about this. I think ive come to mine.

[JLovegrove]

>Also, last time I checked Topps was a division of Hasbro, and if I'm not mistaken, which I might be, Hasbro has the current license to Lucasfilm to make the Star Wars toys. Imagine, finally, the Star Wars clix we've all fantasized about but knew would never happen.

Whoah... that would be pretty cool... Finally a chance to smack Jar Jar binks around.. :)

[ludd_gang]

Dude, if Star Wars clix isn't HC compatable, I WILL CRY!

HULK SMASH JARJAR! Or the vampires eat him. Or the Sentinal uses him for a pipe cleaner. Or Wolverine vents on him.... Oh the possibilities!

Rancor Monster clix!

[lavinah]

Topps isin't a division of Hasbro. Check into it, Topps is it's own company.

They're alos a well respected, old school company - they've been around for years.

Still, this is bad.

-lavinah

[NickCarraway]

The question has been raised regarding selling Heroclix while it is peaking. Perhaps as a smaller company, it has done all it can with the resources it has.

I see a lot of people going on about how there aren't many more figures that can be made in the DC or Marvel universe (except of course Spidey and Elektra). There is also a large contingent going on about betting more independent comic characters into the mix.

KNOCK KOCK. Topps can continue to keep Clix viable by introducing them to a larger audience through their distribution channels. And they can bring in other genres (sports, Star Wars, GI Joe) that a lot of people want. I see three possible scenarios:

Topps wrecks it or Clix self destructs under the weight of other-ownership

Clix totally grows under Topps larger corporate banner and all the amenities therein

no idea on three

bottom line is, the only thing that will faze me is if i can't get a good case price and have to pay the silly $6.95 i have been per booster. That will kill it

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by ludd_gang
Sportsclix will be fascinating, if only to see whether they put the red KO's or black skulls at the end of the dial.
Perhaps "Bench" as the last click? One your player has run out of energy, he's got to go to the bench.

In a football or hockey clix game, players could get benched either by taking serious hits, or by rolling 'critical misses', or by pushing beyond their limits.

In a baseball clix game, players could get benched by missing catches (stretching, spraining, etc.), critical misses, pushing, getting hit by the ball, that kind of thing.

Maybe players would start in the middle of their dial, and gain clicks as their morale improves. So when your team scores a touchdown, the player who scored gains two clicks and the rest of the team gains one. Or perhaps one of the special abilities will be "second wind", which gives the player a positive click once the third period starts. Baseball pitchers might lose a click every inning (but gain a click any inning they aren't scored against), with only the very best clix having ten or eleven clicks on their dial.

I wonder how they'd package the game -- maybe you could buy team sets. Boosters would have a mix of players from different teams. So the Seattle Mariners might have a mid-range starting lineup, but Ichiro would be an ultra-rare found only in boosters. Fantasy teams could be made with players from any number of teams. Want to have Gretzky, Roy and Lindros on the same team? No problem. But the rest of your 300-point team is going to be filled out by recent hires from the minors...

I can see how they could make the game work...but pro sports doesn't tickle my pickle, so I'll give it a pass (no pun intended).

[gnam]

Ok, I didn't finish reading the thread so if someone already said this sorry for repeating.

I think this is a good move for both Topps and Wizkids, first off as someone who has collected sports cards for a number of years I know for a fact that Topps has always been very good with customer support, good with buybacks and overall they make a very good product in the sports card industry.

Secondly someone had wrote about the prize support potentially diminishing. As I see it prize support is something that Wizkids has always had, and most collectible games have some kind of support for tournament winners, so I don't see this as stopping. What could potentially happen is that Wizkids/Topps could begin charging stores for prize support packages. This could cause one important thing.. it could remove the limits that Wizkids is holding on sanctioned play, because by allowing stores to purchase prize support the stores could run the tournaments how often they liked. The only drawback to this would be that if your venue doesn't charge an entry fee now it would start, and the LEs could become more readily available in the market, making their resale value lower. However it would also stop the "scam stores" from simply taking prize support and reselling them for pure money.

The other thing that this will change is it will increase the frequency of new sets. With Topps controlling the company, and it's resources behind the product the game will develop much quicker. This is the one part I'm not sure about, when WOTC started producing sets in mass quantities I left Magic because it became very repetative, however there are a great number of comic book heroes out there, so hopefully this won't affect HC as a game.

Anyways, just my 2 cents

[gnam]

Originally posted by TheOneRob
Well this sucks.

Sports cards companies are total #####s. Just look at how UpperDeck screws Yu-I-O (sp?) players. They pay like 3.99 for an 8 card booster pack, and the retailer discount is significantly less then for other products.

You have to look at one thing.. Upper Deck sells packs of cards for 120$ for 4 cards. Most of their product is high end product that has an MSRP that most people would run away from screaming. Topps on the other hand has a more affordable product in the sport card market, the quality of their cards are still nice, but it's not the same exhorbitant price that UD charges. I really don't think we are going to have to worry about the price going up any more then they already have.

[GeorgeDaGreat]

Ok Ok. I get it now.

I think this has both positives and negatives but a huge positive is the expantion of audience. Topps could introduce a whole lotta new type of clix and I am so hoping for NFL Clix!

But anyway, I don't know how the prices will go. I mean up or down?

This is IMO mixed news. I have mixed feelings because I mean Topps buying out Wizkids pisses me off because Wizkids should be independant but then again the expanding of audience will be great.

Just for a small joke imagine the Simpsons episode where Bill Gates "bought out" Homer Simpson. Bill Gates had his men destroy the office. I could just imagine Arthur Shorin having his staff destroy the office of Jorden Wiesmann.

"Buy him out boys!" LOL.

Sorry, I just HAD to bring that up.

Thanks! :laugh:

[GroovyBoy]

Originally posted by Phantom
They might be able to purchase some letterhead.

I’m wary of this. On the one hand, it may be good for Wizkids. On the other hand, WotC really became deplorable after they sold themselves to Hasbro.

In the meantime, maybe we can look forward to a future Clix expansion that will finally answer the question once and for all: Can Ichiro beat the Hulk?

Of course Ichiro can beat the Hulk. What a stupid question. Well, except in the month of April...

[Corpse]

Originally posted by Draddog
<P><B>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE</B><H3 ALIGN="CENTER">Topps to Acquire WizKids</H3><P>JUNE 23, 2003 (SEATTLE) — Today, The Topps Company, the trading card, collectibles, and confectionary company, announced it is acquiring Wizkids, LLC (“WizKids”), a privately held designer and marketer of collectible strategy games, headquartered in Bellevue, Washington. WizKids’ current games include <I>Mage Knight, HeroClix,</I> and <I>MechWarrior</I>, all of which utilize collectible miniature figures with a patent-pending “combat dial” that encodes relevant game information in the base of each piece.<P>Topps Chairman and CEO, Arthur T. Shorin said, “The acquisition of WizKids represents an important step in our strategy for growing the Entertainment segment of the business as it provides efficient entry to the growing collectible games market. Founded in 2000, WizKids enjoys a strong reputation for its innovative game design, effective marketing skills, and high-level customer care. In addition to the existing product line, there is a healthy pipeline of new games in development.” He added, “Joining forces with WizKids will enhance the licensing reach of both companies and will further leverage Topps brand franchises. We look forward to welcoming the management and employees of WizKids to the Topps family.” <P> Jordan Weisman, WizKids’ co-founder and CEO, will be responsible for the day-to-day management of WizKids and its 95 employees. Mr. Weisman, 43, has been one of the gaming industry’s most successful and prolific designers over 20 years. He will report directly to Scott Silverstein, EVP and head of Topps Entertainment Division. <P> Mr. Weisman commented, “We are delighted to join with Topps and look forward to enhancing the Company’s product offerings with the addition of collectible strategy games. With the support of Topps resources, its distribution know-how, industry presence, and brands, we are excited to realize the full value of our game products and to play a role in the successful evolution of Topps entertainment lines.” <P>WizKids manufactures and distributes “collectable miniatures games,” a category of tabletop strategy game invented by Weisman in 1999, and now played in 56 countries all over the world. To date, the company has sold more than 100 million toy figures under the game brands Mage Knight™, MechWarrior®, and HeroClix™. <P> The latest game to bear WizKids’ imaginative stamp is Shadowrun® Duels, which hits store shelves this month. Shadowrun combines full-sized action figures with a complete set of tabletop “combat” rules, combining imaginative play and rules-based game play. In September, WizKids is launching Creepy Freaks™ the Gross-Out 3-D Trading Game that combines the collectability of card games with the tabletop strategy of a miniatures game. It is also the first WizKids title designed exclusively for kids. <P> For additional information on WizKids, visit www.wizkidsgames.com.

This is not good...*plays taps*.

[Batman1983]

going into Overpower withdrawl all over again.... "I'm scared mommy... What If they never make a Silver Surfer clix." Must think happy thoughts must think happy thoughts etc.

[Kid Zero]

My first thought was "There goes the neighborhood", but, on reflection, this may give Wizkids more capital to try some different things that they haven't before. (Anyone else remember when half a Booster run waited until the other half was sold to pay for it? Or so I was informed by a relatively knowledgable game store employee.)

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by PaladinKWA
This is so sweet!

Topps buying WizKids will be a huge boon for players of all the WizKids lines: Mageknight, Mechwarrior, Heroclix, Crimson Skies, and Shadowrun.

The "BIG ANNOUNCEMENT" at Origins is obliviously going to be Sportclix. This is going to be a win/win for everyone. ToppKids will be hiring more sculptors to sculpt their Sportclix lines. This will make more sculptors available for other games. Heck, ToppKids might even buy a 3-D lifesize scanner (similar to what McFarlane uses for movie figures) to scan in Baseball, Football, and sports figures. Then the sculptors will just clean them up.

This means ToppKids will have more clout with their overseas production companies. Higher volume means lower prices and better quality.

Since Topps is a cash rich company this gives WizKids more clout to go after bigger licenses.

Don't worry about Marvel or DC or Indy guys pulling their licenses. WizKids MAKES MONEY FOR THEM. Marvel, DC, and especially the Indy guys won't turn down free money. Marvel licensed over 2,000 different products for the Spider-man Movie. Believe me, Marvel won't turn down cash. As long as WizKids is paying a licensing fee and both Marvel (DC, etc) and Wizkids are making money there will be new sets.

So hang in there guys. This is GOOD news.

Problem being is that with any big publicly owned company niche things that don't promise a huge growth rate and profit margin aren't really supported...that's the tyranny of the shareholders. Many perfectly good ideas are going to be axed or never see the light because they won't fit with the bottom line...of reaching mainstream success.

That's the fear for me...that they very well may come up with something...but it won't be for me the niche gamer.

[sniksder]

I dont think Topps would have paid this amount of cash if they didn't have some reassures that both Marvel and DC were still going to be onborad with Wizkids to keep making cliks based on thier Super Heros....why pay millions if they knew that b0th companies were going to pull out?

thry can make all the sport clicks they want, but the core of this game is the superheroes......

But having LE/Uniques of Babe Ruth, Micky Mantle, Brooks Robinson....is something to look forward to.

[tidge]

If AOL can buy Time-Warner, I'm convinced that *anybody* can buy AOL-Time-Warner.

Personally, I think that AOL-Time-Warner is desperate (as a company) to fracture back into separate pieces. I happen to think that Topps (as a company) would be a great match for a part of a fractured AOL (with the Warner Bros./DC brands).

The "Cash on Hand/No debt" gives Topps an incredible advantage in the financial markets. Consider the recent "mergers gone bad"

Lesson 1: Daimler accquisition of Chrysler: Chrysler had plenty of cash and a well managed debt structure. Daimler used the cash to make further purchases, and make Chysler a minor division in their corporate structure.

Lesson 2: AOL purchased Time-Warner with nothing but stock that turned out to have not nearly as much value as people thought. AOL proceeded to completely disrupt the Time-Warner franchises while also failing at their core business.

Lesson 3: Lucent fracture into 3 separate divisons, with the remaining "Lucent" division with no products and no value.

Topps' excellent position comes from the following:

1) Lots o' Cash: perfect for greasing the wheels of any major market deal.

2) No debt: brings the ability for a new merged company to refinance existing debt structure.

3) Core products: recognizable, niche, and profitable, with lots of potential for cross-pollenation.

4) Lessons 1, 2, & 3 above. Topps will never have to suffer the fate of Chrysler or Time-Warner, with all the current knowledge of those debacles. Topps can hold out for the parts of a fractured AOL that it wants to be part of. (Think Toys & Marvel Comics)

Don't worry, the deal isn't borken ;)

[psbsean]

I do see Marvel pulling out of Heroclix with Topps running it in the near future. Doesn't Marvel own Fleer? Wouldn't that be a conflict for Marvel?

[gaidin]

I wonder how many of you have a biz degree or experience.

I have two words for ya.....

SYNERGY RULES.

And that is what we will see.
I read the e-mail that they sent out to venues and it will be all the same people and no firings and Jordan is still the "boss" at wiz-kids.

How many of us have been complaining that there are not enough employees? Well now they have a chance at better distribution cheaper shipping costs and from a company that is already known to be a niche market ( unlike the Hasbro purchase of WOTC)
So relax all for now it looks to be a good idea that will bring the possibilities of some great things and the downside is not as great as a lot of you see when you look back at other mergers ( where the synergy was much less because they were different niches here is a collectible based company buying a collectible company that will bring in a new audience to both.)
gaidin

[Funky Jett]

Actually, Playoff Inc. owns Fleer, Skybox, Action Packed, Pinnacle Brands, Score and a couple other sportscard companies as well. I suspect they would own their non-sportscard divisions too, but I'm not sure. Fleer, et. al, still produce cards under their own brand name, but they are all owned by Playoff. Topps owns Bowman sportscards and both still produce under their own names. Upper Deck is Upper Deck only.

[Jack Squat]

Topps' CEO said:

“Joining forces with WizKids will <b>enhance the licensing reach of both companies</b> and will further leverage Topps brand franchises."

That's a pretty strong hint that there will be new clix games based on new licensed properties. Topps already has licenses to produce trading cards for Star Wars and Lord of the Rings ... hmmm ....

As for leveraging the Topps brand franchises ... give me Bazooka Joe Clix! With a Ring Pop dial twister! Wahoo!

[logansbuddy]

lol. All Ring Pops will also be usable as Clix Rings - gotta love that.

[XocgX]

RING POPS!!! That is great. I'd still assume Star Wars clix would need Lucas approval assuming the contract is specific to each product, but Topps going to bat for Clix is better then WK alone.

[BatmanNTulsa]

Have any of you when to Topp.com and looked around Topp has Marvel cards so why would marvel pull out now DC might pull out but I doubt that marvel will pull out.:)

[BatmanNTulsa]

They also have Star Wars card on there site so that might mean that we will be getting Star Wars Clix too

[bill4935]

I dont think Topps would have paid this amount of cash if they didn't have some reassures that both Marvel and DC were still going to be onborad with Wizkids to keep making cliks based on thier Super Heros....why pay millions if they knew that b0th companies were going to pull out?


Exactly. For a publically-traded firm like Topps, there is such a thing as due diligence. They have to investigate everything about WK before they buy - as a way of protecting shareholders from bad investments.

So Topps will have found out from WK (who have to tell the truth - it's called full disclosure) what products are in development and how long their licensing agreements are contracted to last.

Topps went ahead with the buy knowing all this, so it must be good news. IE, their current licences must last long enough that Topps could expect a reasonable amount of time where WK would make as much money as they have in the past...

So DC and Marvel should by this reasoning be around for a while yet.

If that doesn't calm you, there's also the fact that it will take at least a year for Topps to have a managerial impact on WK products...

My opinion is that Topps will let current WK mgmt run things a while longer - they may just be an angel at this point (helping WK with financing, distribution, etc).

At least this is what my BAH in Economics is telling me...

Finally, since I'm just a player and not a collector, this will be good for me no matter what. It means either long life for HC in years to come, or pennies on the dollar for all of your collections when you realize you're never going to get the Surfer or Namor... heh heh heh

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
That's a pretty strong hint that there will be new clix games based on new licensed properties. Topps already has licenses to produce trading cards for Star Wars and <b>Lord of the Rings</b> ... hmmm ....There's already a LotR CMG in the works by Sabertooth Games. Star Wars clix would be cool though. They could even work it similarly to the way they are doing Crimson Skies.

[matthe]

I don't see SportsClix coming out. Sports cards have been slowly losing market values. If anything, Clix is going to replace sports as their collictible market, not take in things it already has.

I could see those Star Wars Clix. That would be neat and would be marketable every two to three years, depending on when the movies come out. Otherwise, it would probably be a bust. We've seen this with so many oter Star Wars products. Only LucasArts ever pulled off successful Star Wars products without a new release, and they have been producing high quality games for years. Recnetly, I think they've been slipping, but still, they're the only ones that have done it. The CCGs have bombed in time, as have the collectibles, at least most of the ones released in the past ten years. I don't think they would risk it.

However, I do believe they will continue with at least Heroclix the way they have, and I am sure they already checked to make sure that Marvel and DC were cool with this or else they would be in big trouble.

I also find the timing interesting because last week they released the preview for Indyclix, but I doubt that this has anything to do with the recent purchasing, outside maybe introducing Topps and Wizkids.

I don't think they'll pull out prize support. They probably will actually increase it to further encourage Tournies, like what Hasboro did with WotC.

[Phoenix99]

Okay, Let me start by saying: I love heroclix!!! And with this new merger with Topps is very unsettling... I hope for the best but I can't help but wonder what will happen to heroclix. I dont think it will last much longer only because these big corp. companies come in and dont see a fan based game. They see $$$ signs. And if they don't see enough of what they want in $$$, but is still aprofit none the less, they will shut it down. Heroclix is a success, but will they become greedy rather than produce quality from here on out? Who knows only time will tell, but if Topps is reading the forums, hopefully they will listen to the hard core fans like myself:

I PHOENIX PROCLAIM TO TOPPS...
DON'T MESS WITH HEROCLIX!!! IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FANS AND THE GAME FIRST, THEN MONEY, REMEMBER THAT AND YOU WILL MAKE $$$.

The Phoenix has spoken...

[bjmc1975]

Originally posted by bill4935
Exactly. For a publically-traded firm like Topps, there is such a thing as due diligence. They have to investigate everything about WK before they buy - as a way of protecting shareholders from bad investments.

So Topps will have found out from WK (who have to tell the truth - it's called full disclosure) what products are in development and how long their licensing agreements are contracted to last.

Topps went ahead with the buy knowing all this, so it must be good news. IE, their current licences must last long enough that Topps could expect a reasonable amount of time where WK would make as much money as they have in the past...

So DC and Marvel should by this reasoning be around for a while yet.

Not necessarily - it could be that the contracts were coming up soon but it didn't impact the decision for whatever reason (e.g. HC has smaller profit margins/Topps thinks they can renegotiate/they think the game would die off once all the major figures were out/etc.)

The bottom line, though, is that we don't know. HC is the mostl ikely to be affected, however, because it's their only licensed property. All of the other are company owned.

[djensen47]

I'm not worried about the survival of the HeroClix game. If anything I think we'll see a proliferation of clix based games. I'm even think SportsClix will be a great game (that I won't play) because there are more sports fans than comic book readers and the profits from the sports games could possibly fund the other games.

What I am worried about is policy changes for organized play. Organized events are the only chance I get to play and without them I will not buy the figures.

I'm also a little worried that as a larger company with more lawyers, they'll go after the clix mod makers and repainters.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by matthe
I don't see SportsClix coming out.

WizKids registered the trademark a few months ago. With the Topps acquisition, the question is not if, but when, and how many.

[matthe]

Well, if they registered the trademark, then maybe it is coming out. I don't think it'll have a good market. Most sports fans seem more inclined with video games as it is. And how would that work as a game? Though I think this also shows that this takeover isn't all that sudden because there was obviously the anticipation of doing sports at sometime.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by Phoenix99
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FANS AND THE GAME FIRST, THEN MONEY, REMEMBER THAT AND YOU WILL MAKE $$$.

No, it's all about money first. It's business. It's always about money first.

[matthe]

This game really isn't so much about the fans or I think they would have made more clear and concise rules. This, like all other business, is more about the money than anything else. Just because it goes from private ownership to a corproate divisoin doesn't mean it'll change.

WotC didn't, and they have a product with as much apeal as Heroclix or else they wouldn't have an estimated 3 million player (I think this was the right number, don't quote me though).

If anything, Hasboro ensured quality control at WotC, something Wizkids has been lacking on somewhat or else there wouldn't be so many complaints, and there will be better marketing.

[CquinnO27]

I have been reading around and I did not find anywhere that Topps is a subsidiary or division or anything associated with Hasbro. They are two diffent beans.
So Star Wars clixs and so forth may still be a while off.

[matthe]

They aren't as far as I know. Maybe I, or someone else wasn't clear enough during a comparison of WotC and Wizkids being bought out. Topps bought Wizkids and Hasboro bought WotC. I see no other relation between the two. As far as I can tell, Topps owns itself.

[matthe]

Also, the cards were Star Wars Cards of Topps were refering to the ones that were premium cards released around the movie "Attack of the Clones" and have nothing to do with the card game as far as I can tell.

[CquinnO27]

Originally posted by matthe
They aren't as far as I know. Maybe I, or someone else wasn't clear enough during a comparison of WotC and Wizkids being bought out. Topps bought Wizkids and Hasboro bought WotC. I see no other relation between the two. As far as I can tell, Topps owns itself.

Nah, it was eariler on in the thread where the idea that Topps was part of Hasbro had come up. I was responding to those, not your posts.;)

[matthe]

Okay. I kinda skipped through most of the middle so I didn't really know.

[Batman1983]

Lets put it this way.... Topps is the Cardmarket! If it weren't for Topps there would be no UpperDeck or Fleer & if Sports cards hadn't held strong, then CCGs may have never taken off... I don't want to give Topps credit for everything, but now that I've calmed down I see that this could be a Major plus move for Wizkids. Stability is what Topps has shown & Now that their original cardmarket might be distabilizing they make the move into a solid market...

UpperDeck bought the rights to Yugioh (most likely for quick cash), but we know it wont last because its a cash game not a strategy game & people will lose interest. Hasbro 1-uped UD by buying into a stable CCG market: Magic TG. However in both cases these moves were (more than likely) done to save their company. In Topps case they are still stable, but they saw the biggining of the possible Sports card end & decided to stay stable by buying into the new collectors market. In length they decided to create a Symbios of interests instead of wait to be a Parasite on another company.

UD is a Parasite & if Hasbro continues to do what their doing I'm not sure what you'll want to call it, but Topps wants to stay #1. By aquiring the big Market (aside from 40K & Magic) they aquire stability & a mutualy beneficial cash flow. I just had to come to the point where I realized Topps isn't (nor ever has been) what UD is.

[XocgX]

I can only wish that somehow sports clix and heroclix are compatible......

(queue dream sequence)

Player 1: My Mickey Mantle LE hits a grounder to Thor and loads the bases. Your turn.

Me: My Vet Mandarin mind countrols your Babe Ruth LE to steal 3rd and beat Honus Wagner over the head for 4 damage. Now Vet Doc Samson picks up the bleachers perplexing his damage up to hit Mantle for 8 damage with knockback.


I imagine that day will never happen ;-)

[Batman1983]

Together we can make it happen my friend... Can't wait for that day.

[matthe]

Oh, I found the real number of MtG fans, it's six million. That's scary.

[gaidin]

At one time Marvel decided to stop all the other companies fropm making money off of its license in the card market and bought Fleer. they did stuff and when Marvel went public I believe they sold it off again. So the Marvel doing their own cards is not around anymore I believe ( been a while since I followed that.

Now as for those that saw that Topps stock was down yesterday well that is because they released their quarterly earnings report. they made 8 cents per diluted share against 16 or so cents last year. That from a financial stand point looks bad and would cause Wall Street to devalue the stock hence it drops in value. It will take a while for Wall street to value the synergy of these two companies because they want results.

As for all you saying big company only cares about money well that is true but when you are buying into a company that has historically been in a "niche" "collectible" market you know that they are going to have the ups and downs of the fads of the public.

Topps will expand the reach of Wizkids in getting licenceing ( I can't spell:) ) and it is a good cash flow bonus with their lack of debt. Also look at the possibilities of shipping cheaper ( instead of worring about filling a whole crate with figures they can ship on a container with the Topps cards or candy. So some of the shipping problems of late may be lessened.)
they both use many of the same distributors so that will help in lessening shipping costs as well ( hence the word Synergy).

All of this may be pennies saved but that is where they profit margin will increase and that is what a owner will really look at. ( that and the dividends that are shipped out) Nothing is to happen with the employees at WizKids and Topps would be foolish ( and it really seems they know this) to mess with this.

I really think everyone needs to settle and realize that this is better for the gamers as a whole in the long run so just wait and see before we worry.

Remember that Topps has been in a niche collectible market for 50 plus years and they have seen the boom of Baseball ( and other sports cards) and the subsequent fall of that market and they are still there so they know about trends and they know about fads and how to survive in that type of market so they bring that knowledge and they bring that savvy to the company and that could help Heroclix survive the downturn in the economy and pull out in the end stronger and ready to outlast Magic and any other game that comes its way :)

Gaidin

[CquinnO27]

I do not think the buying of Wizkids will hurt Wizkids or destroy the clix gaming system.
I, like others was just bummed about the prospect that Marvel may or may not not sign another contract with Wizkids to continue with heroclixs.
I think what many of us were wondering is how Marvel will react to Topps buying Wizkids.
Not we have any bearing what so ever on what happens with this game or what companies enter in the game line or pull out. No matter how much we think we do. And I am not complaining about that, it is just how business is.

If Marvel does pull out, the world is not going to end or anything. No one here is going to be jumping out of buildings. All that will happen is we will not see any further Marvel expansions in Hero Clix.
And that would be a disappointing thing for me. Because like most of the people on this forum, I enjoy the game and collecting and look forward to the new expansions.

We can be bummed about it if we choose to, whether or not we are being bummed for nothing remains to be seen. But that is our business.

Sitting here going,"#### I hope Marvel does not pull out," and, "this does not look good," does not mean we are a bunch of chicken littles.
Just means we do not like what has transpired. And we can feel that way if we choose.
We are not imbeciles, we know whatever happens, it will not have any real bearing on our 'lives/jobs/family/whatever.
It is just someting to talk about.:p

[Jack Squat]

Cquinn--

When the time comes, Marvel will make a business decision on whether to renew or renegotiate or drop out. Why would they be concerned about Topps indirectly benefiting from the deal? Marvel already has licensing deals with Topps for superhero trading cards. Anyway, there's no way of knowing if Marvel would have renewed their licensing agreement with Wizkids if Topps hadn't bought the company.

[matthe]

I don't know, Cquinn, I could see people jumping off of buildings if they didn't get their plastic crack. But most people like that are a few screws short to begin with and would do that towards a lot of things, I'm sure even D&D has seen this before, and probably been blamed for it like so many other incidents.

Actually, I think sitting here worrying over whether or not Marvel will pull out is a little bit Chicken-littlish of us, like the time we threw a fuss over Wizkids talking to us about the leak they had and the possibility of liscensing problems. (Xplosion)

I am pretty sure that this will not decrement the quality of Heroclix, nor will it cause liscensing agreements to fall through. Negotiations have probably been happening for months between Topps, Wizkids, Marvel, DC, and all the independant comics, or else Wizkids would be risking the independants liscenses being pulled before the release later this year. I think WizKids is a little more buisness saavy than that.

Further proof of this could also rest in the fact that there has been the esxistance of the sportsclix as a registered trademark for a few months which further shows that this has probably been on the table for some time. (Note: Since this IS speculation, I DID put it in the indefinent)

[CquinnO27]

Good points.

Here is something just a bit off topic, Remember the Garbage Pail Kids cards?
That was a Topps line. So it is conceivable that we could see Garbage Pail Kids clix. Something like wiz kids Freaky line.

[bjmc1975]

My main concern about losing the license is multifold:

1. Marvel's liable to up their asking price (as is DC). The game sold well, the experiment worked, call it what you will. Generally speaking, the costs go up the second time around.

2. Future sets are less likely to be profitable (in theory) because most of the major names will be out by then. With sets consisting of second string characters and redos of the big names, sales may drop sharply (though this has yet to be tested).

3. Marvel (and DC) will be a smaller part of Wizkids + Topps than they are of just Wizkids. If just Wizkids lost Marvel & DC, then one of their three major product lines would be gone. But if Topps loses both companies (or either company), then they're losing a part of a subsidiary.

4. Licensed properties tend to be the first thing to go when companies are acquired. This is in part because they're generally less profitable (due to licensing costs).

It's entirely possible that this will not affect Heroclix, or will even help it. But my instinct tells me that this is most likely to hurt my two favorite WK lines (Dungeons is the other; since it hasn't been a staggering success it could easily get cut as well) than help them.

[scowlingone]

I think you hit the nails on their heads, bjmc.

WotC lost the Pokemon license because they weren't willing to pay through the nose for it. The prices of the comic licenses will go up, sharply, when it comes time for renewal.

Marvel decided to go their own way and publish their own RPG, and by all accounts it is selling well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't offer the license up for renewal at all, and went with making their own CMG. This wouldn't have anything to do with the Topps buyout, but it's still a point worth considering.

[firstfederal]

This just smacks of selling on a high note.

Indy Clix sales have been flat (according to a sales rep at a major)

Crimson Skies sales have been non-existant (check the shelves)

If I had to guess, Cosmic Justice sales have to be flat (with Hypertime cases selling for $150.00 on ebay)

Mage Knight sales are also in the tank.

Creepy Freaks is untested.

Is the Shadowrun big fig doing anything?

AOL bought Time Warner with projections which proved to be utterly false.

Topps bought WizKids before a final look at the end of the year numbers will tell tham anything. If this is WizKids first down year, they took it in the shorts.

Bill

[matthe]

Hmmmm. I would just like to point out how almost all of Topps creations are based of licensing agreements. Everyone should go check out Topps.com, and look at their entertainment... All of it is in lisencing. I don't think that Topps is just going to let one of their subsidiaries lose a valuable license just because it costs money in the way of licensing. They already understand the principle of spending money to make money, especially in this kind of situation.

And Marvel has already been dealing with Topps... Since at least 1974. That's interesting. I think they might be so turned off by Topps, who have been dealing with lisencing with companies to release collectible cards since the 1950's. I don't think we really need to worry about licence, especially seeing the new Hulk and X-men II collectible cards Topps is releasing.

Also, I don't really think Marvel could release a game this popular in the form of Miniatures, but hey, you can never know.

[matthe]

Firstfederal, that is such an optimistic point. I don't think HT is the right set to look at for market prices.

IndyClix doesn't have the big names that makes Marvel and DC sell so that will need time and some sneak peeks before there is too much consideration.

Crimson Skies has a small market. I don't think this was ever meant to make money.

Heroclix have only been around for a little more than a year so have not really developped any stable patterns of sales like MtG has.

Shadowrun was never meant to be a big seller. If it was, tehn I think I might take back that business saavy statement.

I don't know enough about MK to be able to make a rhetort.

Also, it wasn't the false outlooks which caused Time Warner to merge with AOL, it was the cooked books. This is being investigated to see if Time Warner can use this to break away from AOL and thereby leave the broken mass known as AOL to whither and die like it should have done years ago.

[Batman1983]

I think if Marvel (or DC for that matter) were to pull out. then the least they could do is give us 1-2 sets w/ all the big names we've been clamoring for. This would mean we wouldn't necesarily get characters on Rhino's level, but we can hope for Baron Zemo, Mr. Sinister, & Omega Red; Silver Surfer, Namor, & Adam Warlock; Deadpool, Punisher, & Ghost Rider; Archangel, Bishop, & Cable; War Machine, Venom, & Wonderman; & a few others + Scarlet Spider, Bone claw wolvie(or FF wolvie), Maestro, Dead Elektra (lol), & 8 others for uniques (U.S. Agent... Iron Man buster or Original.... Avengers Human Torch, Black Bolt, etc.)
this would redeem there decision to pull out & give us most of the ones we want & all the big names. It would also make our pocketbooks happy (at least mine).

DC on the other hand hopefully will give us a t least 2-3 more sets. I mean for marvel fans all they see missing is Hal/Kyle & blue supes or something, but to me (& especially to LoSH & JSA fans) DC has barely begun w/ mainstream characters. In fact I'm a huge DC fan so I won't even try to turn this into a wish list thread, but there are plenty a character to choose from... I barely scratched Marvel's surface w/ the above mentioned Characters.

PS a Giant Man would be nice

[Batman1983]

oh & loki AE of a new Thor would be kool too

[capsshield]

Owning wizkids will give tops the copyrights to the dial and thats what its all about. its like owning the rights to the bicycle or trading cards. the dial is probally the most important development in gaming since atari. I would bet that the patent pending is about to change status. Imagine having a gaming system no one can compete against because someone did the patent "right". A company like topps could get decades of use from this patent and have the equivalent of monopoly or gi joe in thier power longer than any of us will live. The concept behind the dial is so clever it could go on and on and on like board games. Just add a new version.

[littletrancebo]

Okay I am not the brighest crayon in the crayon box, so what does this kind of mean. So these card company is now wiyth Wizkids?

[matthe]

littletrancebo, that is a very nice quote. The only thing definitively determined here is that WizKids is now owned by the corporation, Topps, a company that specializes in collectible cards and specialized candies, the best of which is Bazooka Joe. As to what this means for the future, it is up to a great deal of speculation, as this gonglomerate of posts indicates.

I personally do not believe that this will have any great decremental effect on the game, and do not see this as being a bad thing, but, in the end, only time, patience, and the whims of the market place can really tell the future for any company and its products.

[matthe]

Let me just correct my spelling of conglomerate, from gonglomerate, so that, even if mispelled, people can guess the word I'm saying.

[quixotequest]

This reminds me of one of my favorite "classic" games I'll take the time to promote: Acquire. Weisman is playing the real game of life... to get rich. If anyone thought he's in it for the purity of the game, I'll bank against it. HeroClix isn't any franchise built for longevity, much to the fanboys' chagrin. If past hobby games corporate buyouts are any predicter of the future, there is no reason to believe that HeroClix is here to stay.

But hey, Weisman is a brilliant game designer. This will give him the capital to develop another Big Idea which he can deservedly sell to the fans until we've made him enough money to sell that idea out.

[quixotequest]

Lest anyone confuse my post...I totally admire Jordan Weismann. He's playing the game of business the way it needs to be played. Granted, I think this doesn't bode well for HeroClix beyond another expansion or two. But I do think the Clix mechanic is here to stay: Sportclix...shudder. Did anyone think that HeroClix isn't a fad?

Sure it seems ironic on the eve of IndyClix, that Jordan has sold out to a publicly traded company. On principle it would have been more cool if we fans could have helped Jordan make his millions by giving us our heroes and keeping it independent. But I can't fault him for playing the surest game for making money in business: prove a good idea and then sell out on a high note to someone bigger.

[proditor]

I'm not sure why I was surprised when I heard that Wizkids was being purchased by Topps. It's really just history repreating itself. Fasa got auctioned off in chunks with Weisman taking off from the shop before it collapsed under it's own weight.

He's a smart monkey and I have no doubt he'll keep coming out on top, selling off the next BIG IDEA (tm) and then moving along before the bottom falls out of it.

[azbats]

I have to say that ths is big news. I hear a lot of negativity goin on, and I thnk we need to give this some time to see where it goes. I hope it works out, and I'll reserve my judgement for a bit.

We know at the absolute worst that we've got a couple more expansions coming out, let's just enjoy them and hope they're no the end.

Jeff Grub or Jon L, now would be a good time for us to hear from you. I'd be interested in hearing what you think, and how this may or may not affect this game.

And I agree with many of you, Sportsclix will probably be the "big announcement" that we've been hearing about.

[buff032304]

It would also be a conflict with Marvel AND DC because Topps has their own comic book label.

[littletrancebo]

i hope they dont stop making clix, I am going to be pissed casue I spent alot of money on this hobbie and people that like it to. :confused:

[matthe]

buff032304, Topps label is so small and Marvel has already been working with them so I think this particular issue is probably a null issue.

[bullseye100]

i know one thing... if things do start to fall apart, ie... heroclix game support and customer service, i will stop buying this game.... even though i love it so...

[bullseye100]

if something does happen, ie... the game falls apart, i will try to buy a lot of old boxes and mod my own characters....

[Doctor Strange]

A lot of people have listed great economic reasons why this might not be good news for us.

I'm ignorant of economics, but I think it feels like back news.

[Batman1983]

I think if prices go down (like the cheap HT cases) then moding will be the way to go... Constrictors are great for so many things if you break them up in different sections... wingless wasp's can conform to sooo many women... So IC is great for moding, not to mention Dr. Strange is used a lot. HT has Checkmates, Hawkman, Hawk all have lots of potecial.

[XocgX]

Has JonL posted here about this at all? I'm gonna go search....

[shin-goji]

Jon L is basically out of HC.

[azbats]

But Jeff Grubb is not. I'd like to hear his thoughts.

[malice93]

Topps forum on take over:

http://forums.etopps.com/toppsforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26635

[britman71]

I would like to wait before I comment on how this TOPPS/Wizkids situation turns out.

Though I have to comment on one item. I will not be a fan of Sportsclix. Ugh. I like a lot of sports (and play them too) but hate the idea of clix in sports.

[mcyiddish]

i am both perturbed but hopeful about this news... everyone's posts were great and its times like this i'm glad we have this community to share, vent, and put things into perspective.

tho i'm a lil worried about what this news portends, i guess i'll hafta just wait and see. (personally, as a Marvel-man, i could care less if DC pulls out, so long as they gimme a Hal Jordan)

[mcyiddish]

as a side note, i saw a few guys playing a clix game on a custom football map once, back when IC first came out...

lamer than lame

i'm all for the superpro idea though!

[mysterio_lives]

if i wanted to play some sort of sportsclix i would just pull out my copy of BLOOD BOWL. i wont be supporting anything WK or topps does anymore if they screw up the Heroclix.

[Scavenger4]

ugh just when i thought a i had found a game that i can keep up with expansions... please oh please dont' let topps turn expansions out like MTG does..

[lewdew]

Who in the heck wants sport clix?.............I hope they keep alive the marvel hero clix line they have,and not put it on the back shelf for some stupid sports clix.

[azbats]

Originally posted by Scavenger4
ugh just when i thought a i had found a game that i can keep up with expansions... please oh please dont' let topps turn expansions out like MTG does..

I have the same problem. I am barely keeping up with the expansions as it is (limited funds for clix:( ), and if they start hammering out expansions like Magic, it's going to get expensive.

However, I'm going to keep an open mind about this. I hope it works out for the best.

As far as Sportsclix go, I would be interested to see what they're like, but I'm not sure if they'd be for me.

[matthe]

Magic doesn't hammer out expansions any faster than Wizkids. They have three expansions a year, then a new base set every two, which contains only previously released cards. Newbies have to by 3.5 sets a year, and old school buys 3. How many sets have come out in the past year for Heroclix? How about after Indy? They are coming out just as fast, if not faster, unless you want to stick with one brand or another. Even then, it's not far behind.

[Taxeon]

Why would anyone say they don't want to see sportsClix. I have often thought this would be a perfect game for NFL clix. I have even dirived a set of rules for just that kind of game. I just hope TOPPS moves foreward with the idea that is one thing I will gladly jump on.

[Scavenger4]

Originally posted by matthe
Magic doesn't hammer out expansions any faster than Wizkids. They have three expansions a year, then a new base set every two, which contains only previously released cards. Newbies have to by 3.5 sets a year, and old school buys 3. How many sets have come out in the past year for Heroclix? How about after Indy? They are coming out just as fast, if not faster, unless you want to stick with one brand or another. Even then, it's not far behind.


DC, marvel and Indy are all independant from each other, so people can choose to play either one and only buy from those lines and be perfectly competitive. Invasion was a base set and it wasn't all previously released cards... like MM, US etc...

DC has been out for almost a YEAR with only 1 expansion that was released just this week. Marvel over a year and only 2 expansions to follow it. This is a VAST difference from MTG's expansion and base set releases, in which you can see a base set followed by 2 expansions all in the same year and if your lucky another "edition".

[jmarriott]

They bought the combat dial for future sets of games like sportsclix.

I doubt that heroclix will be effected at all. We got about 3 more set and a Indyclix and who else you going to make 7 different hulks or electra's.

Star wars clix will be a whole new game, so will sportsclix and Wizkids might not even have a say in thise products but Heroclix and the others will most likely stay in house,


collectible miniature figures with a patent-pending “combat dial” that encodes relevant game information in the base of each piece.

[matthe]

Ummm.... That is basically what I said. If you only play one kind of HeroClix, you don't buy as many. Also, sorry about saying "Base Set", It is now called the Core Set, which is released every 2 years. Also, you are seeming to look at it as strictly type 2 play, which it's not. And the cost of a pack of magic is much lower. But, technically, you are wrong on your use of differing between Invasion as a base set and what followed it as expansions. Wizard of the Coast clls them expansions, and they only set up a "Block" of expansions, the first one setting the mood and introducing the basic cards needed, and all others building on that, whithin the block. Old cards are regularly cycled into these too, like shock in onslaught and Ernham Djinn in Judgement.

Also, if you really wnna look at Invasion as a base set and the two expansions coming fter it as being expansions to that base set, you only ever need three sets to play magic. I know that this is true only in some kinds of tourney play.

Also, how much have you spent on HeroClix over the past year to be able to play? Let's just stick with marvel, unless you are a straight DC fan.

[Noman]

Hmmmm.

Well, i'll design a Cricket Clix game for them, if they PROMISE to keep publishing Heroclix until we have Clix figures of every single superhero and supervillain, and REV's of every alien race, ever seen in any comic, anywhere !

LoL

All the Best

Noman

(Of course, of all the WizKids products, I want Heroclix and Mechwarrior DA to survive the most.
Whether this will happen, who can say ???
As to if the takeover by TOPS is a good thing - well, I think we'll know that when the Marvel and DC Heroclix licenses are renewed. Or not.)

[Kid Zero]

Hey, NoMan, can you explain the rules of cricket for us? Or suggest a good web site to look at? Either way. It looks like baseball but with better weapons.

[bjmc1975]

I'm not expert, but as near as I can tell it's basically baseball crossed with Dante's vision of the underworld - games can literally go on for days.

[skeevo666]

Don't you get to burn stuff after the game?

[The_Flash_Kid]

Well i remember a long time back when topps had a liscense with marvel and put out trading cards- i think- so maybe we wont lose any marvel rights.:cool:

[freakazoid_x]

Sayyy Taxeon. You wouldn't hapen to be located in the Oregon area would you? I ask this because I was in between classes at my community college and I wandered into some of my friends playing a clix game they had devised with football rules.

[Dakkon_MTG]

As an avid MTG player since 1996 I can say that when Hasbro bought them out it didn't change much. And nor do expect to see much change in this deal with Topps.

As far as Star Wars Clix you can probably count that one out. WotC has rights to the CCG and Lucas Arts only wants money, they could care less who gets burned. Hasbro has the money!

With all this talk about pulling Marvel pulling out they would do as much damage as Lucas did when they pulled out and went to WotC, and that is something I'm sure Marvel is looking at as a harmful thing. They would have to make an entirely new game based on new rules and such.

I think DC will stay in and continue to work with WK to produce more Clix. I just can't wait to see more Superman friendlies. And I don't care if Marvel leaves.

[Noman]

Re : - the "explain cricket" posts above...

"Don't you get to burn stuff after the game?"

After the Australians beat the English at the International version (Test Match) of the game for the first time, the "bails" (small wooden bits that sit on top of the three posts the bowler aims at...no, realy) were burnt (signifying the death of English Cricket) and the Ashes placed in a jar. I've seen it, on display in the Lord's Museum in London. It's what England and Australia play for. Go figure.

"I'm not expert, but as near as I can tell it's basically baseball crossed with Dante's vision of the underworld - games can literally go on for days."

I like the description.
A "full scale" Test Match can last 5 days. In the old days, there might not even have been a time limit...it often felt like it, apparantly. Oh yes, in a 5 day game between 2 evenly matched teams, and especialy with the English weather, a draw is almost certainly the most likely result...

"...can you explain the rules of cricket for us? Or suggest a good web site to look at? Either way. It looks like baseball but with better weapons."

"Baseball, but with better weapons". Wonderful. I wish I'd thought of that one.

Rules are quite complex, BUT here goes...

2 teams, 11 players each.

Each has a Wicketkeeper (guy who stands behind the hitter and catches the ball when he does something foolish, like missing) who, in the grown up game at least, is not also a Bowler (pitcher), ever.

Teams CAN use any player as a Bowler, but in practice will use a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 7. Generaly, the Bowlers on a team will bat AFTER those on their team who do not bowl, but there are exceptions (Flintoff, Botham, Brearley etc.)
Bowlers can be fast (miss and you're dead), medium fast (miss and you're out) medium pace (miss it and surprise everyone) Spinners (miss and your out, hit it and your caught) or Slow (Miss and be extremely embaressed.)

Everybody can bat - traditionaly, your best batsman goes in at number 3, while your worst is number 11.

The aim of the game is ALWAYS to score more runs (points) than the other side, and SOMETIMES to get all of their team out once (or even twice) each, AS WELL.

This results in weak teams getting a draw by simply avoiding being all out - eg

Flash Super Team CC 420 all out and No Hopers CC 19 for 9 at the close, match drawn. Again, it depends on the exact rules of the competition.

Fielders can be put almost anywhere on the field, but certain known positions are popular, eg Silly Mid On, Backward Square Leg, Gully, Cover Point, First Slip, etc.
My son traditionaly fields at Third Man (there in case the Batsman and the Wicketkeeper both miss it) while I prefer to field at Mid Off (close enough to the action to look as if youre involved, while captaining, but not likely to have to do TOO much...)

What confuses fans of baseball the most is that you have two batsmen in at the same time (think of the wickets as bases) and for a run (point) to be scored they CHANGE PLACES.
Hitting the ball out of the pitch (along the ground, or with one or more bounces) counts as 4 runs, and belting it out of the ground altogether without it touching the ground at all, counts as 6 runs.

If a fielder is stupid enough to take their hat off, and place it on the ground, and it gets hit by the ball when the batsman plays a shot, that scores 5. (no, realy)

The ball is bowled from above the head, with a straight arm (think of a sideways windmill...) - although under arm bowling is not actualy (that) illegal...

Being "Out for a Duck" means facing one ball, not scoring, being dismissed from the game, and trudging back in a depressed state to blame either the umpire or the weather...

There is a rumour that the game is couched in Language designed to be inpenetrable to Americans because the English, Australians, South Africans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Zimbabwaens, Kenyans, West Indians, New Zealanders and, yes, even the Dutch (all of whom play Internationaly) fear that if the Americans ever actualy understand the game, they might be VERY GOOD at it rather quickly...

So, untill WizKids ask me to design Cricket Clix for them,
Make Mine Cricket !

All the Best

Noman

(previously Manager, London Schools Under 16 County Cricket, Tower Hamlets U18 CC, Tower Hamlets Girls Team, and sometime Executive Member of the London Schools Cricket Assoceation.
London Cricketer of the Year, 1988)

LoL

All the Best

Noman

[Noman]

Oh, and Heroclix is great, and Marvel will stay in.

LoL

All the Best

Noman

[Kid Zero]

Thanks. Please forgive a few more questions and any obvious answers that I missed as I am on here too late at night and really should be sleeping.

Let's see if I get this right. The two bases are the wickets and the game starts with two men "on base" "at wicket" or some such? How is it determined who the Bowler bowls to? Tradition? The way the "Ground"(?) is set up? Do both "Runners" (?) get bats or is just one of them batting at a time? (one ball, I presume?) In order to score a "Run", do the runners have to actually change places or for, that matter, do they have to actually change places 4 or 6 times? Are you out if the Ball knocks the bail(s) off of the wicket? Or is that the equivalent of Baseball's strike? Or are you out if it hits the wicket, regardless? Is a Batter basically a Goalie with the intent to hit the ball?

"The ball is bowled from above the head, with a straight arm (think of a sideways windmill...) - although under arm bowling is not actualy (that) illegal..." We call it throwing sidearm in Baseball, I believe.


How does one run? From wicket to wicket? In some other path? Is there any contact, similar to Baseball, trying to tag the runner(s) out or similar? Or is the only way to score an out to hit the wicket? Are the fielders only there to retrieve the ball?

(And is this the same wicket in "a sticky wicket"?)

How does one determine if the ball is out of the ground?

(Sorry, if I use Baseball as an example too much. It does seem very ethnocentric to assume that anyone outside of the Western Hemisphere and the Japanese would even know what I was talking about.)

[LoganX102]

Well, this is something i definitly would never have suspected.