IndyClix GameTrade Article

[Draddog]

Game Trade Magazine features an article on IndyClix, which can be downloaded here - http://www.gametrademagazine.com/PDFs/GTM_41_PDFs/IndyToTheRescue.pdf
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August 2,2002,WizKids announced a third component to its popular HeroClix™ line:Indy HeroClix. Bringing together the United States ’two largest comic publishers to create the initial HeroClix game lines was no small feat.This time, however,WizKids has brought together eight of the leading publishers in the independent comics genre.In June 2003, Indy HeroClix will arrive on your store shelves —and blast right off!

Indy HeroClix,available in both Starter Sets and booster packs,is targeted at a variety of audiences. Indy HeroClix provides an excellent starting point for new HeroClixplayers.The rulebook has been completely rewritten to be much clearer and simpler.Since the initial HeroClix titles were released,the WizKids Game Design team has taken the time to pour over feedback and comments from its envoys,venues, and player communities. All of this information was sifted to develop the new Indy HeroClix rules.These new rules will be integrated into older rules via FAQ updates.In the meantime, Indy HeroClix Starters will contain the new rules and Powers and Abilities Card (PAC)in a convenient printed format.

Another target for Indy HeroClix is the reader of independent comics.These are the shoppers who pick up 2000 AD,Danger Girl,Hellboy, Kabuki, Shi, Sigil, Sojurn, or Witchblade. Even if they don ’t play HeroClix,they may want to pick up Indy HeroClix simply for the amazing sculpts.Each of their favorite heroes and villains has been artistically sculpted and painted. Every publisher and creator worked closely with WizKids to perfect their characters,ensuring that when a player holds Abby Chase in his or her hands,it ’s what Scott Campbell wanted her to looke like.

Current HeroClix players will also want Indy HeroClix for these reasons.They will also want to pick up a copy of the new rulebook and PAC.The new rules enhance the current HeroClix regulations.The changes include modifications to flying and other special abilities.For example,one of the most commonly
requested additions to HeroClix has been met : Indy HeroClix comes complete with a glossary of terms to help define powers and skills that players may be Unfamiler with.

One of the biggest rules changes has been to the flying speed mode.W hereas flying units used to be able to carry other flying units —creating a situation in which flying characters could essentially get two actions per turn by being “taxied in ” by another character —the new rules prohibit this.


Another significant change to the rules has been to add a “power action.” Previously,,players were limited to move or combat actions.The addition of the power action simplifies the game,as it redefines many of the powers and abilities.The entire rewrite process was aimed at keeping the game simple and fun,while making the intention of the rules more clear.

Indy HeroClix also introduces seven new team abilities,some which are familiar and some that are completely new to Indy HeroClix. For example,2000 AD team members may choose to target an opposing character or team, and gain an attack advantage by doing so. When CrossGen team members are damaged,they deal 1
click of damage to their attacker.

The character list includes secret agents,futuristic cops,angels,and demons,but one of the most anticipated Indy HeroClix characters is Witchblade from Top Cow.The Unique sculpt represents Sara Pezzini in full Witchblade armor.As you might expect,she has the Blade/Claws/Fangs special ability deep into her dial,as well as a lot of Toughness.And just when you think you have her down,Witchblade gains a few clicks of Regeneration,allowing her to pop back up to
almost full strength.

Indy HeroClix offers something for everyone.It is the ideal introduction for new players,and incorporates important rules changes to existing HeroClix lines.Plus,the new characters and team abilities will be sure to spice up the game.Indy HeroClix is one of the most anticipated releases of the year,and will be sure to fly off store shelves!

<HR>
Kevin Goddard has been an active gamer and comic book fan for the last 22 years.He is co-owner of one of the largest HeroClix web sites on the Internet,HCRealms.com. Kevin has written several gaming related articles for both print and online press.He currently works for WizKids,LLC as it’s Web Community and Information Manager.

[GeorgeDaGreat]

Nice!

I love that 2000AD new ability!

And the new PAC is gonna be a great reason to buy it.

:classic:

[Spider-fan 930]

I am getting this for the rules and PAC card only. I don't read any titles not from Marvel or DC. (Read some Image and CrossGen, but didn't like them)

[fut_baller]

very cool

[The_Orphan]

I've got to wonder if there'll be Wildcards... and what the new Mixed environment will look like...

[fut_baller]

very cool

[daredevil11]

The "power" action thing sounds interesting - I'm not too crazy about the crossgen team ability. Anyway, something to look forward to and read in its entirety.

[kdem2357]

power action? Will outwit and perplex take an action now?

[skeevo666]

Is the flyers not carrying flyers still a rumour if it's here on the Realms . . ?

[Manchine]

I like this and I have high hopes for a better rule system and a more Streamline Rules system.

Cant wait for Indy.

[Scarecrow 1.5]

awsome


i hope they sell indy @ comic-con San diego

[Scarecrow 1.5]

in the pdf file it says indy will come out june 2003 dont they mean august 2003?

[Spider_Cide]

Why does it say June 2003?

[KidInTheHelmet]

Glad I saw this.

So the CrossGen ability is pretty much the Mystic team.

[XSuicidalX]

hey don't forget also...

NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS NEW MAPS

[hellboy19]

Ohhhhh, I so want a Hellboy!! And it's about time we got a new rule book and PAC. I'm curious if there will be a BPRD team ability......

IT SHOULD BE AUGUST NOW!!!!!!

[Weapon XII]

Prob sometime around august either before or after the maps

[TheBeyonder]

Power actions is probably just a rewording on powers that say make a move action but dont move. Barrier for example.

Also I hope the flyer change is not too extreme.

Bad Idea:Fliers cant carry fliers at all.

Good Idea:A flier that was taxied cant make a move action but can still attack and use powers.Which falls in line with the new power actions.

Both could be possible,but the latter is what I'm in favor of.

[Scarecrow 1.5]

INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!INDY!!!


-Please gid please sell indy @comic-con bow down to hellboy and
Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey Samandahl Rey

[Scarecrow 1.5]

by the way on the man hc website i found out indy is coming out early september

Indy HeroClix Starter Set Sept, 2003 Sept, 2003
Indy HeroClix Boosters Sept, 2003 Sept, 2003

[TheBeyonder]

Power actions is probably just a rewording on powers that say make a move action but dont move. Barrier for example.

Also I hope the flyer change is not too extreme.

Bad Idea:Fliers cant carry fliers at all.

Good Idea:A flier that was taxied cant make a move action but can still attack and use powers.Which falls in line with the new power actions.

Both could be possible,but the latter is what I'm in favor of.

[invisibo]

so, what is the new deal with taxis? the carried fig can't take an action? somethings changing, i don't know what though.

power action? what?

so confused...

[Manchine]

More then likely the new rule for taxi's will be Fliers cant Carry Fliers, invisibo. Which is a very very good thing.

[hellboy19]

I personally hope fliers can't carry fliers at all, it would add a lot more strategy to the game. After all, have you ever seen Iron Man carry Thor so Thor could throw his hammer at someone?

I am curious about the power actions, and hope it just explains the powers that take a move action, but you don't actually move, like TheBeyonder suggested.

[Manchine]

More then likely the new rule for taxi's will be Fliers cant Carry Fliers, invisibo. Which is a very very good thing.

[Braden]

How is that at all a good thing. It fixes one figure and makes unplayable a whole lot more.

[Braden]

Suddenly all fliers would have he problem that blade has.

[Scarecrow 1.5]

Originally posted by Braden
How is that at all a good thing. It fixes one figure and makes unplayable a whole lot more.

Barden Means firelord being the one figure !!!
-lol

[XSuicidalX]

I love the taxi ruling.

[Braden]

Braden doesn't use firelord. But Braden would like to be able to use thanos or mandarin or any other high priced flier.

Imagine when the silver surfer comes out (if he ever does) that he can't pull the johnny storm out of battle because he can fly. That makes the game lame.

[TheBeyonder]

Well the way I look at it is fliers not being able to carry fliers at all would cripple the game.This is just way too extreme a rule change.
Like I stated before If the change was that fliers could still carry fliers, but the TAXIED flyer couldnt make a move action while still being able to attack and use powers from their position would be much better.
Example Wasp carries Thor.Thor can not make a movement but could still make a ranged attack or use any powers.This would imediately bring up issues with powers that say make a move action but dont move.So you could not running shot but could still make barriers or whatever.
This is why I beleive they made "Power actions" It seems to be a pre-emptive strike on this kind of confusion.


I hope my ideas came across O.k. ,Thats seems to make the most sense to me and I'll just keep my fingers crossed I guess. :confused:

[Ando]

Yeah I dunno. Fliers can't be taxiied but non-fliers can? How does that fix anything? Wait and see I guess. Power Action? I guess that will replace 'move-action', but couldn't it also mean something else? Maybe a 'power action' costs a click but you can move and attack in the same round? Well I can dream can't I?

[dmac7979]

I wish wizkids would release the new rulings before hand. So I dont have to wait until September.

[Manchine]

So many speculations so little FAQS (hehe) just have to wait I guess.

Also the rules will probable be out before Sept. One of the Cons probable will have it a month early. Which means we will know a month early.

[shin-goji]

I don't have anything nice to say about the new rules, so I won't say anything.

[Kingofkod]

Anyone else think these rule changes seem like more of just a ploy to make people buy INdy clix since they otherwise wouldn't sell very well?

I really don't think it'd be too hard to update the FAQ like they usually do with some of these new rules.

[Braden]

Any idea when we will start seeing previews?

[TheBeyonder]

I hate waiting!!!!
Hate Hate Hate

Cant I just create some planet where we can all get our answers straight from WizKids themselves?
I mean come on , I am TheBeyonder:p

[zapdos]

So what does it mean about them being out in June? Id say that about, Oh, A MOUTH TO LATE! Wouldn't you?

[zapdos]

So what does it mean about them being out in June? Id say that about, Oh, A MOUTH TO LATE! Wouldn't you?

[Manchine]

Nope becuase the Rumor of a Rule Change was done way back in January by Dr Lu (I think his name was). This is a fix for things that are obviously broken.

Shin wont be smiling when the rule comes out. Shin dont like the rule at all.

[shin-goji]

Kingofkod hit the nail on the head.

[Manchine]

Probable the week around the CJ marquee time.

[shin-goji]

No sadly Manchine I don't. Look on the bright side. Sentinels are now more powerful than ever before. They aren't flyers, otherwise they would be able to soar over figures :)

What do you mean by 'Shin wont be smiling when the rule comes out.' I'm not smiling now :mad:

[thraashman]

hmmm. Shin has a point. sentinels don't have to break away, and a 100 pt sentinel is a 12 click, push all you want figure that can carry anyone.

of course they may change the ruling to be worded not as "flyers cannot carry flyers" to instead "flying figures cannot be carried" which would have no real effect on the sentinel

[Thunderbolts]

Suddenly all fliers would have he problem that blade has.


Nah, even Yellowjacket will never be _that_ useless.

[Kingofkod]

Shin ain't the only one who don't like these new rules. If it's true that fliers can't carry fliers then hopefully they update the fAQ saying that Thanos, Ultron, and Mandarin aren't fliers. Otherwise they're totally useless now. Actually Super Skrull and Blastaar aren't looking to hot either. But hey at least I won't have to worry about the new Superman ever doing 7 clicks of damage to me since there's no way he'll ever get the first hit in.

[Manchine]

They are very useful. Just have to send them (fliers) with a supporting character instead of a taxi. Gonna have to actually think about what you want to do before you do it. Gonna have to think who you want with who instead of think what taxi do you want with who. It will actually become more of a strategy game.

[Ashlar38]

You can also use Barrier to get them close, or Smokecloud as appropriate. Carry a Medic with you and Heal up, or let someone else carry the medic and you meet up with them before going in...more strategy is good. Double taxi teams dominate too much.

[Thanosied]

Okay I read all that and the PDF. There is one thing I don't get though. The people at Wizkids in there infinite wisdom are taking away taxiing fliers because they consider any said "flier" thats being taxied as using 2 actions in a turn. Wow so now only ground units will have 2 actions per turn? This also means that any existing Flier who doesn't have Running Shot or Hypersonic speed will decrease in his usefullness in tournament aswell as fun games.

Characters with charge, stealth and leap climb just became all the more useful. I wont gripe about how this will effect the game and certain characters but when Indy Clix comes out we will all be playing a different game. Well Marvel anyway. The DC format is still litered with Stealth and Outwit.

I wouldn't mind the "rule" if it was Indy Clix ONLY and for tournaments. This would enable all players to use there clix in fun games and fully integrate Indy into that, while at the same time being restricted in tournaments for strategy purposes with the Indy Clix personal rules.

Chewbakka is a 7 foot tall Wookie from the planet Kashykk, he lives on a planet with 2 foot tall Ewokes. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE...Ground characters getting 2 attacks and fliers only getting one. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE... Does that work on anyone? LOL. I thought it might.

[XSuicidalX]

Mandarin has a 12 range!

How does that make him useless?

If all you complainers are that fed up, you have 2 options:

1. Make use of telekenesis
2. Quit heroclix

[EVIL CAP]

You can say the characters will be just as good all you want but if they were made useless by this moronic ruling then people would ALREADY have been playing that way beforehand.Now simply because of a few loud whiney people a large portion of the characters will be useless.Anyone with half a wit of sense wont struggle to make the newly immobile high point flyers worth it instead they invest in grounded figures they CAN taxi.Except to see a rise in Vet Green arrows Exp Bullseye She-hulk Doc Sampson Mordu Nightcrawler low cost flyers to taxi characters you care about and an overall decline in any flyer without running shot

Indyclix a fairly suspect project in the first place will probably carry a nicely sized stigma for "messing the game up" and will probably fail now.Well all you lucky people Feel better that you whined about FL as if he stuck his q-tip somewhere delicate?or will you just move on to {Female Dogging] about how unfair Amazo or Nightcrawler is now that you lack half the mobility needed to get to them?

[Manchine]

And thats your opinion EVIL CAP. Doesnt make it right. Doesnt make it wrong. Its just your opinion.

[EVIL CAP]

Ok please sit around and beg me to move into the range of all your newly grounded flying figures that were totally unaffected by the rule change.

[malchyor]

yeah, this power action thing could really screw up gameplay. who knows what it means? is it just redefining a term, or will all powers now cost an action? if so, outwit, perplex and probability control (defend?) just lost almost all value...

the taxi thing? who cares? the only real threat it stopped was firelord (cuz in tournies, which other fliers were ever taxi'ed?).

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
You can say the characters will be just as good all you want but if they werent made useless by this moronic ruling then people would ALREADY have been playing that way beforehand.Now simply because of a few loud whiney people a large portion of the characters will be useless.Anyone with half a wit of sense wont struggle to make the newly immobile high point flyers worth it instead they invest in grounded figures they CAN taxi.Except to see a rise in Vet Green arrows Exp Bullseye She-hulk Doc Sampson Mordu Nightcrawler low cost flyers to taxi characters you care about and an overall decline in any flyer without running shot [and probably those with it too]

Indyclix a fairly suspect project in the first place will probably carry a nicely sized stigma for "messing the game up" and will probably fail now.Well all you lucky people Feel better that you whined about FL as if he stuck his q-tip somewhere delicate?or will you just move on to {Female Dogging] about how unfair Amazo or Nightcrawler is now that you lack half the mobility needed to get to them?

Hey like someone else just said, nothing prevents you from using TK to get figs closer.

And considering the range advantages that flying figures previously had when exchanging fire with grounded foes, I think it's alright...

Flyers were getting too important, particularly the menial grunt level ones being used as taxis.

I mean taxiing in comics is rare...you'll go entire arcs without any...and then only with characters that obviously can't fly...the only instances I can remember of anything like taxiing of flying characters would be when they're unconscious...so if anything this makes the game more accurate to the source material.

[Thanosied]

Rise in V Green Arrows? He is already in the echelons of DC. EXP Bullseye? Where do you play? Get the Vet going with Doombots and you get a lethal 2 character combo. Cry about Amazo or Nightcrawler? I have never or will never loose a game to either of those 2 clowns. These new rules wont change that either. I am a heck of alot more worried about characters like Despero, V Deathstroke, E Batman (wasn't a problem before), V She-Hulk and Darkseid. Too the guy who was saying use TKing, please in DC what do you have? GL, Fatality and Cosmic Boy. Woop it up. I would shoot myself before travel to tournies with those 3. Maybe the LE GL he has at least a little potential.

Oh well the complaining is not that I will hate it so much qas the game will be entirely different. The tournament seen will be dominated by grounded figures and the Cash value of alot of the figures you have spent money on will decrease and the ones you need will increase. This reminds me so much of Overpower and MagicTheGathering when they came out with Chronicles.

The game is great as is. I would have purchased Indy Clix no matter what. This rule change however will probably decrease my purchase of the set. I will reserve my judgement until the rules are confirmed.

[Manchine]

Well if your talking about Turtling thats a weakness still in either way you play.

If your not then there is plenty of ways to handle that.

People with Running SHot and Charge actually become more like they should.

But Like I said its your opinion. Whatever dude.

[Manchine]

Only thing is everyone is forgeting. This might make some figures decrease in value. But it will make a lot more increase in value.

There is a lot more Pro's to this rule then there are Cons.

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by Manchine
They are very useful. Just have to send them (fliers) with a supporting character instead of a taxi. Gonna have to actually think about what you want to do before you do it. Gonna have to think who you want with who instead of think what taxi do you want with who. It will actually become more of a strategy game.


Eh....not really. If i send Mandarin out with a medic. More then likely on my opponents turn the medic is dying or losing healing and Mandarin or whoever is getting his head busted because of the fact that the other teams characters can just stand there and blast away without needing a taxi at all. Don't see the massive strategy in that.

And for the guy talking about mandarin having a 12 range. 12 range isn't very useful when you've already got an action token. Not to mention the fact th at only a fool would push Mandarin meaning your opponent will have plenty of time to send him hobbling back to the medic or pushing up daisies before he can fathom the idea of striking back.

Also who is going to pay the 60 extra points to make a flying fighter good by using TK and barrier? Not to mention the fact that that's 3 actions just for the flying character to be able to attack and be safe. It'd be 4 actions if the barrier figure wasn't in range to put barrier around the flying character and had to be taxied unless it was a free move taxi.

[Bubblehead]

... is that it is that much riskier to taxi straight into combat. Also making L/C and Plasticity that much more valuable. So in order to have your mega watt E Ultron isn't so useful anymore because he has to move himself instead of Doombot, Doombot, Doombot. I think this is going to create a whole lot of fun people. New powers, new styles of play and yeah Sentinel is looking pretty good right now. Adapt and survive everybody. I'm glad for one about the taxi change. Thought it was just that cheeese factor of 10 we didn't need.

[Legion-of-Doom]

Well this kind of kills my Dr Doom team, no more Doombot taking Doom. Time to insert Sentinels and mandroid armors. I'm not big on the rule but I won't #####, wanna know why ? House rules ! We can still play however we want at home. Can't wait for a new set with new maps though. Hope they have some pre-sell figures at Wizard World chicago. That would be awesome !

[Manchine]

I said "Supporting Character" not "Support power character".

[CaptainCarl]

hmmmmmmm

i usually use

doc ock
nightcrawler
nightwing
bane
doc samson
spiderman

now

despero
deathstroke
greenarrow

non of the guys i use fly so they can all be carried
so i guess the taxi rule is irrelavent to me now is it

but really when you play in a tourney and all you see
are firelords wasps an ultrons what fun is it anymore
ok some figs will be hurt but so be it
i for one am impartial to a rules change so if it happens
it happens if it doesnt it doesnt live with it

the game will still be the same no matter how you look at it

thecaptain:grin:

hopefully they sell some boosters at the san diego comic con

[EVIL CAP]

If TK was that much more effcient than taxing we would have been using it already on figures other than Spiral.

No new figures will be used grounded figures we have already been using will simply be used alot more

The game will have less mobility and will probably slow down as many figures [IF they are used at all] wont have much option but to turtle

The only surviving flyers would be economy taxis for important grounded characters or moderately priced ones with RS that will taxi a grounded character with range

[Thanosied]

Is that response for me? Turtling isn't an issue in Marvel as bad as it is in DC. All of the what is great in DC wont change much buy this rule but the Marvel will however. The Marvel seen has been for a heck of a long time now, been ruled by flying range characters. Only grounded characters will get the true charcge though. Taxi with charge, the fliers just had that taken away. What they did buy how I read it is, give an unfair advantage to already very good grounded units. They where great before but now that there counterpart opposing fliers can't do what they used to they get pinned by little ####py 6 point Thugs or whatever peon is lying around.

Now how is Batman and Deathstroke not going to rule the tournament scene? They sit and shoot from the bush negating any and all defensive powers and just pick off teams on there own. There is a very limited supply of charge in DC especially on grounded units. This will make it doubily hard to get in there and drop the stealthed outwitters to a reasonable workable state. Now the fact that both of those characters have Leap Climb is just laughable right now for me. People thought Firelord was bad, they haven't seen nuttin' yet. When you have to play against multiple stealthed characters game in n' game out and your hair is finalling gone after weeks of frustration, then you will all be selling me your clix at 1/10 there original value.

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by Manchine
I said "Supporting Character" not "Support power character".

Well either way those characters are too expensive to be used as taxi's. Only big numbers taxi that is worth it is Vision. Besides him once you hit 100 points it's better to just invest in Vulture/Bullseye or some other dynamic duo.

[CarlosMucha]

Taxy fliyers be or not to be! That is the question!

OK, I LIKE!
I think is a more simple rule is "flyer figure cant be carried, is all, no less Vel, or carring cant atack etc, only this "Flyers can be carried, is like the comics!
No more broken Firelod, no broken Mandarin, and the no flyers figures will be more importants, is nice see storm carring Cyclops, but is ugly see stirm carring Mandarin, or Ironman!?

[Kingofkod]

what about Storm carrying Mr. Hyde? i know you that pretty picture.

[Thanosied]

Then make Fliers only be able to carry a character who is less points then them? Is that what you where trying to say Carlos? Well thats not a bad idea. Again Mandarin is not that bad right now. You will probably have a 2 to 1 advantage in characters over the person using Mandarin. He will probably get the first shot on you and he will probably hit. 3 Damage is not the end of the world and now you have 2 turns too beat him down. Mandarin will not push unless he is already damaged. Firelord is broken however for a multitde of reasons but I am not in favor of this new rule but it has spiced up the realms again which is good. Maybe its there way of testing the seas to see if the fan base likes or dislikes the idea. Well will have to wait and see.

[Kingofkod]

ahh where is the word "like" in my above sentence. Ahh well you guys get it.

[WarHULK]

OK, as I said in another thread, I believe the problem is more the fact that ranged attacks may be used after taxiing, not that fliers are carrying other fliers. It's not the fact that Firelord is a flier that makes him specifically so dangerous when he's taxiied, it's the fact that he can blast you at range for 5 damage. My point is this: no fliers carrying other fliers is overkill for a problem without diagnosing the actual problem. A far more appropriate fix would be "no carried figure may make a ranged combat attack during the turn they are carried". That's the real issue. This would solve the whole "I just got blasted by someone that was 20 squares away due to taxiing" issue without making many fliers useless. This solution would both fix the problems aswell as make all BtB figures far more effective. There are many many non-ranged fliers who are taking a very large hit by this ruling.

Of course, I feel this proposal is a bit too late since it seems that the new rulebook has already been set in stone... I just with the guys at Wizkids had thought this through better... because this just kills some great close combat fliers. I love close combat play... this could have made the game all the better... not crippled half the fliers who would have become better as BtB fighters... eh, ah well, such is life.

[Taltos]

Well it seems because of this new rule, Wizkids just lost one person from playing hero clix again.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by Taltos
Well it seems because of this new rule, Wizkids just lost one person from playing hero clix again.


bye

[*!Arkangel!*]

I can accept a rules change that says flyers can't carry flyers.............Provided Wizkids erratas/replaces all of my now-overcosted high-point value flyers that I have traded for and purchased over the past year with newly costed ones that will reflect their artificial battle fury........Anyone that is arguing that telekinisis is just an effective of a way to get figures into battle has clearly never played a game of Heroclix (or at least never won one).....I think an acceptable ruling would be:

1) A carried flyer cannot carry a character in the same turn as being carried.

2) A carried flyer cannot make a move action in the same turn as being carried.

Both of these will effectively shut down cheesy combos like the Green Lantern/Live Wire combo that we will all be playing or losing over the next month, without crippling the characters we have all traded or payed good money for.

And yes I know that flyers don't carry flyers in the comics................Except when one flyer is injured........Or when one flyer flys at a considerably faster speed than another (Superman)........Or when Green Lantern carries other characters through space......Gee, that looks like quite a few exceptions right there......This argument is totally flawed.....In fact when I think of characters carrying others in the comics, the top two that come to mind are Spiderman and Batman......But wait a minute, they can't carry anyone in Heroclix?!?!?! This calls for a rules change!!!!!!

Flyers being completely unable to carry flyers at all severely limits an effective way to move half of your figures in and out of combat......This does not open up new strategies, or add strategy to the game, but instead removes a proven strategy to allow less effective ones to see play.....Really, telekinesis is poorly written (in my opinion).....I mean, does Jean Grey need a line of sight to lift something up???? I don't think so.....She could also smash whoever she lifted into a building for damage....But not in Heroclix....This calls for a rules change!!!!!!

Sure folks, this is a comic book game, but many aspects of comic-book realism cannot carry over for it to function as an aggressive strategy game.....And back to the comic-book realism thing, sure flyers might not carry other flyers very often in the comics, but this does not mean that they should be physically unable to.......It is, I'm sure we can all agree, a little silly to suggest that the mighty Thor cannot carry Wasp merely because she can fly.....Similarly, it is silly to suggest that Wasp can carry the Hulk, but not Shadowcat, merely because she can fly......

I am interested to see what will happen, anyway....The flight-speed thing that is mentioned in the article suggests to me that the rules change is not as simple as flyers not carrying flyers, but we won't know for probably at least a month.....So in the meantime we should all enjoy the game we love!!!!

[TheBeyonder]

Yeah see ya later.

[TheBeyonder]

Fliers not being able to carry fliers is just too extreme.
I have also stated your rule proposal in this thread, It makes sense and dosent cripple anybody.
Plus I think it explains the new need for power actions.

Im still going to play either way and will be able to adjust no matter what the rule change.

Come on Wizkids we all know you guys patrol these forums , why not just give us this one thing: What's the official ruling?

[the itsy bit]

yep..

I would like to see the official ruling too (maybe today as a preview ?).
though the Flyers cannot carry other flyers does make some high point-cost flyers pretty lame (Ultron,Mandarin,Thanos etc.) it also opens up a lot more possibilities especially for Close Combat.
If you do want to make ranged attacks from 20 squares away, you can still do that they just need to be grounded.

FL taxies Sabretooth in and he charges someone, next turn you finish that fig off with your FL.
WK just made melee a better option (even in DC), which isn't all that bad.
All flyers with RS/Charge will be still cost effective they just have to played better.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Taltos
Well it seems because of this new rule, Wizkids just lost one person from playing hero clix again.

See Ya! I suggest you take up CandyLand(TM). It will give you hours of fun! Send me your clix...

[Bart_Clinton]

Bye Taltos, hope the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

I have two new favorite powers: Running shot and Telekinesis.

This ruling completely changes the game, I'll admit that, and I had half a mind to come here and complain about how Wizkids is ruining this game.

Well, they're not. If anything, they're adding variety. Without rules changes, new sets, and updated play tactics, the game will get old fast. This is probably the best way to do that without completely messing up the flow of the game.

Sure, things will slow down a bit, and it will cause many figures to actually be worth 100 points less than they really are, but we can adjust and keep the game fun with an open mind. How many of you have actually playtested this? Some of you, for sure, but not all of us, including me.

Jean Grey/Phoenix will be much for fun to play. We have many great grounded ranged figures, like Cyclops, increasing the fun of an all X-Men team.With this rule change, how could a team of Colossus, Cyclops, Jean, and Gambit/Beast for Perplex with U Shadowcat for a tax not be more fun than it was.

After thinking it over, this rule change had revitalized my interest in the game, and I look forward to experimenting with and seeing new options, as opposed to the common and sometimes redundant teams that have dominated the game in the past.

Good morning everybody. And if I don't see you... Good afternoon, good evening and good night! :)

[GL2814]

"The entire rewrite process was aimed at keeping the game simple and fun,while making the intention of the rules more clear. "

Isn't the taxi rule contradictory to this? It make the rules a bit more confusing. Also, as others claim but I don't agree with, it makes the game need more strategy, making it less simple.

[TheLion]

I can see the point of the people who do not the new proposed taxi ruling (if in truth it is fliers can't taxi fliers).

In the old rules you built your first strike team, won the die role, and went on to win the game but getting all the way across the board on the first move to wipe out the key figure of your opponents team.

Now you actually have to position your figures, play dynamically and actually force your opponent to make a mistake.

If I played like that, I would want to quit after this rule change, too.

[Bart_Clinton]

GL2814, the ruling doesn't necessarily simplify things, but I think it would make sense for someone just starting out. Fliers don't carry fliers, simple enough.

And I think being forced to change your team from the kind of team TheLion mentioned will only be beneficial in the long run.

Face it, we wouldn't be here without the Green Lantern ability. While it added a significant new power, it really hurt the game, and I'm glad Wizkids did something about it as fast as they did. Sure, by using the GL ability, you'll still be able to get figures across the board, but not was many or as often as you could before.

I really believe this is only to keep the game fun and to keep it from getting out of hand. Why would it happen for any other reason?

[ultra1k]

In the majority of the games I play, I rarely use a flyer to taxi another flyer, since it is rarely done in the comics, so I welcome the change mainly since I lost a tourney to a person who used a Phoenix/Green Goblin combo to serious thrash me in a game.

The ruling itself would change the dynamic of the game because it would bring a lot more grounded figures into play, and let you make teams not entirely dependant on flyers carrying other flyers.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Bart_Clinton
This ruling completely changes the game, I'll admit that, and I had half a mind to come here and complain about how Wizkids is ruining this game.

I disagree. This will not completely change the game, but add the ability to use additional tactics, thet couldn't be used because of the one dominant tactic.

I think someone posted in another thread how now everyone will sit and stare at each other instead of moving with the new proposed ruling. That is happening now with everyone playing first strike teams. You wait for your opponent to get bored and come charging in so you can move and gun the figure down on the next turn. Or, you sit and stare at each other until time is almost up and run and kill the easiest figure on the opposing team. and then congratulate yourself on what a great tactician you are.

I give players a lot of credit that have been able to compete in the current atmosphere of the game that don't use run and gun tactics (probably DC players), but this will suit your play style better.

The players I play with rarely use fliers to taxi fliers, and it doesn't slow down the game and high costed fliers aren't useless.

Besides, all games have rules changes and if someone quits over such a minor tweak, well, I guess that's hust a form of gamer natural selection.

[fatalsync]

My venue has used "Fliers cannot carry other fliers" as a house rule for most of our games since last August. It really doesn't change the midgame that much, but it reduces the cheesy first turn kills quite a bit.

I believe this, along with the removal of adjacent starting, is designed to give both players a chance to move their figures at least once before losing a character.

[Ghost_Rider_92]

What i don't understand is how Hypsersonic got the rule " when using this power, the figure may NOT carry another figure with him"

WHy isn't charge or running shot the same? I mean, obviously the whole Deathbird/wasp or whatever combo is hated due to this, but if a figure using running shot, couldn't carry someone with them, then there would be no double attack use.

The same can be said with taxi, but with opposite wording.

" A figure using a taxi cannot make a Ranged attack on the same turn as being taxied"

This would still allow a close combat person to benefit from being taxied while eliminating the whole across the board of doom tactics.

[Bart_Clinton]

I completely agree, TheLion. Perhaps I should have said it would "signigicantly" change the game.

Nevertheless, it will definitely open up the possibility of improved gameplay by letting us implemet some new tactics. Gotta keep the game from getting stale, and all that. :)

[Kingofkod]

i'm amazed at how many of you have gotten hit by first strike kill teams. Do yall not position your characters behind buildings or on top of buildings or something? I've never had someone get close to pulling that off on me because i'm not a moron that just sits my characters in the open waiting on them to get blasted. Around here the guy who picks sides doesnt' go first so it shouldn't be too hard to pick a side where you aren't helplessly waiting to get blasted on. Are they doing a dice roll for which side you choose and who goes first at other venues? That's the only way I see it maybe happening. I say maybe because from what I can remember there is always a corner or building to hide behind so that you aren't directly across the board waiting to get your head busted.

[Bart_Clinton]

Kingofkod, it's the same distance from one corner to the other as it is from one side to the other. It's just as easy to use the GL/Livewire combo to get to a building than it is to hit them on the ground.

[TheLion]

Please, we all know how to fight the first strike teams, but it still is a dominant strategy. Why? Because it's easy, and everyone loves easy, because you don't have to think with easy.

I usually build multiple threats so Captain First Strike can tag a figure of mine and then I tag him back, making him pay for crossing the board so early. But <yawn> it's so boring teaching a lesson to Captain First Strike.

[XocgX]

I've been hit on turn 1 from the opposite corners practically. With enough free moving flyers and 1 or even 2 people with RS or charge, it can be devestating. I made a new team with only 1 flyer and out of three games I only lost 30 points twice. My prize, JANE FOSTER!!!! Let the game spice up! Anyone who complains obviously uses the yoyo cheese! If you are a good player, and I am sure you are, then make a new team, be creative!!

[Glen Quagmire]

I'm buying the starter set for the maps and praying hard for an Arwyn. If I don't get her, I'll just trade my starters for her. Then I'm done.

[TyeDyeSamurai]

yeah, I played some little kid who had a Vulture/Annihilus combo. At least SIX times in a row during the game he did
Annihilus RS w/ Vulture
Vulture carries him back

Now that's an example of what they mean by two actions. Annihilus should not be able to move shoot and return to home in one turn.

So naturally, I killed the rest of his team besides those two, and ended up with 2nd place overall. LE Sammy Liebman adorns my shelf now.

So get over the taxi change... between the yo-yo team or a GL Livewire team, it just breaks the game.

[FireLFighter]

I played some turnaments and when someone really wanted to win he played Firelord Exp and cause everyone wants to win ... know what I mean. On the German Championships two of three players had at least one Firelord. On the second round, there where only players with a firelord or a team that had only one reason - kill Firelord. Thats not the way a game should be played. There are hundreds of great figs you can play. Only a hand full will be worth less than now, cause of this new ruling (and even less in a 200pt turnament, Thanos on 200pts ???) I really hate Firelord. Everything that has to be done to remove this fig from the game must be done.
One of the figs I love most is my Storm Vet. I'll be really sad, when I have to remove her from my teams, cause she sucks when not taxied. But I think I'll find a new Hero to replace her.
I'm really into this new rule and I'm looking into a better futur for new tactics...

[CaptainMarvel]

I think the new rule will be, any taxied figure may not make an action until the next turn.

As for the game being ruined, The article states that the game will be easier to play and understand, they didn't say it would be easier to defeat your opponent. The game will take a much differant stratigy and team configuration.

I think most of the people who are upset feel that way because the teams that they know how to win with become much diffrent now in terms of affectivness. THey don't want to give up thier sucsess.

Hey I mean who does right? But Now at least all of the formulas for sucsess won't be the same and the out come won't depend soly on the dice.

Not to mention that if everyone is just going to use the same figures all of the time then why make more and if Wiz does make more why make anything but effective flying units.

JMO

[Manchine]

Originally posted by *!Arkangel!*
I can accept a rules change that says flyers can't carry flyers.............Provided Wizkids erratas/replaces all of my now-overcosted high-point value flyers that I have traded for and purchased over the past year with newly costed ones that will reflect their artificial battle fury

Since all Flying characters are undercosted, becuase they did not add the points for taxiing into there points cost. That was a simple fix. Now the points cost is more on what they should be.

[docx]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
If TK was that much more effcient than taxing we would have been using it already on figures other than Spiral.

The problem with TK is you can't use it without taking an action. You can taxi without taking an action. Also, you can TK someone away from you but not back to you. You can taxi someone there and back again.


The only surviving flyers would be economy taxis for important grounded characters or moderately priced ones with RS that will taxi a grounded character with range

Any free move flyer (Booster Gold, Wasp, etc) will still get used. Running Shot characters will get a boost in their usage (which is a good thing, IMO). I forsee lots of Taxi + Charge/Hypersonic speed attacks. . . and this isn't a bad thing to me.

[FireLFighter]

Captain MArvel said:
As for the game being ruined, The article states that the game will be easier to play and understand, they didn't say it would be easier to defeat your opponent. The game will take a much differant stratigy and team configuration.

I think that's the way to look at it...
and I like it!

[Legion-of-Doom]

Only time I ever really use the taxi a flyer strategy is when I'm fielding a Dr doom/Doombot or FF team. My favorite combo right now is the very mean and sneaky Nightcrawler / Shadowcat combo. A phasing character taxing a HS figure. I almost feel cheap by doing it. Almost ;) . At least I can proudly state that I don't own even 1 Firelord, never have. So there.

This will cut down on boring cheese teams though. I have much more fun pitting the Avengers vs. the X-men then Firelord/Black panther/Wasp/Conartist team #1 vs Firelord/Black panther/Wasp/Con artist team #2. thats why I play in so few turnys, if I'm not gonna have fun, why bother ? Just for a LE that I won't ever use or just trade away ? I'd rather sit at my kitchen table, have a beer, and play with friends. But with this new rule, I might start goin to more. My 2 cents, I expect change. L8R, L-o-D.

[mark6574]

Well, for those people who are worried about throwing someone into combat with TK and then not being able to pull them out, there are solutions. Grab a rookie Mandroid and a Parademon Scout. The Mandroid throws your figure and the Scout flies the Mandroid up so he can TK the guy back out. Sure you are going to have to use more guys and more actions, but it just means coming up with new ideas. And Mandroid and Scout might not be the best combonation, but they were just 2 cheap guys I thought of. I see this as possibly speeding up the game because there will be less cat and mouse. There might end up being more slug-fests when guys get thrown into the middle of the map with TK and then have to duke it out without just being scooped up so they can run back home to mommy, or a medic, whichever... :)

[CaptainMarvel]

Thank you FireLFighter.:)

[Greyshadow]

Still not interested - I'll buy 4 or 5 packs (for Hellboy stuff), but that's it. I'm interested in the new Rules and PAC, but those will be posted on the website sooner or later.

[Kaitouace]

Originally posted by Draddog
One of the biggest rules changes has been to the flying speed mode.W hereas flying units used to be able to carry other flying units —creating a situation in which flying characters could essentially get two actions per turn by being “taxied in ” by another character —the new rules prohibit this.


I don't know. The more I read this, the more vague it's looking. At first I was thinking it meant "fliers can't carry fliers" but even though it's mentioned there at the beginning of the paragraph, maybe that's not what it means exactly. Maybe it's just referring to the yo-yo combo (looking at the "2 actions per turn" thing). Because if it's JUST fliers carrying other fliers then couldn't the same thing be said about all figures and that they basically can get 2 actions per turn? Flier carries grounded fig (Grounded fig moves). Then grounded fig smacks someone (Second action).

I don't think it's that anymore. At least not all the time. I'm starting to think that maybe it's just applying to Running Shot. In other words, fliers wouldn't be able to carry (hopefully ANYONE) but most likely other fliers during a Running Shot. By doing that the gameplay is largely left untouched but it stops that yo-yo combo. Everything is normal but if an opponent tries a Running Shot, they'll have to give up their taxi/support character/etc. for the shot. Or they can sit where they are and keep the character adjacent.

I think I like that option the best as I personally thought being able to carry during a Running Shot was ridiculous to begin with. If you're purely flying from one area to another taxing is fine. But a Running Shot means a person is on the move and focusing on the enemy. Can't do that while dragging the Hulk around with you.

While I really like that idea, the main problem with this theory is that it doesn't affect the Firelord "problem" or the GL "problem". Although personally I don't think the GL problem was nearly as bad as many people thought it was. Dragging that many people around together at once so close together is just asking for an multi-shot Energy Explosion to the face.

And even if that theory is completely wrong, the wording of that statement is very vague. "The new rules prohibit this." That could be taken as "The new rules prohibit fliers to carry other fliers." or "The new rules prohibit the 2 action benefit that can be gained by fliers carrying fliers." So they might just change that without actually touching the regular flying rules. Because that description (fliers carrying fliers get 2 actions for one) just doesn't make sense. That's the whole point of carrying someone. So they can move and do something else after landing. The same would go for grounded figs as well. It just seems to me that there's got to be something more to it.

[The Groin]

Maybe the rules for taxiing are like if the model who carries the flyer has his movement halved? Would that be a decent fix?

[Braden]

Braden points out how dumb this rule is.
Completely fine now: yellow jacket carrying Hulk.
Not ok: Iron man carrying the wasp.

[Braden]

A better rule would be to give a disadvantage to ranged combat. A severe disadvantage. A comic book game should be based on close combat. Maybe even atutomatic charge (but not automatic running shot).

[guilex78]

For freaking sakes....I wish someone would just tell us what the heck is going on. Someone from Wizkids just tell us what the new rule is!!!!! Enough guessing, enough debating, enough speculating...just freaking tell us what the new rule is. Is anyone else just sick and tired of this?

[capsshield]

my favorite kind of game is the one in which my opponent taxi's his firelord or doom and then kills my first or second most important piece causing the game to shift in point balance before i get to play. on my second move i try to get into position to attack or attack. my opponent pushes his taxi team after my ranged attack because i couldn't get close enough and heals. my team is now sitting out in the open or i push to chase or run. my opponent uses his second set of taxi team wipes out a second crucial piece, and the chance i had to win is over. not only does my opponent win but i walk away disapointed and end up waiting a half hour till the next round. once i used doom and firelord together and decided that that made it way to easy to win and turned the game into a slaughter. i think the game went three rounds with a couple of pushes. theres all kinds of things they could do to change the way the game plays, and they will make changes. they do test what they do and they did make a great game. the last time i looked i remember seeing lots of colors on a lot of the dials of the flyer's out there. mandarins mind control at a range of 12 or ultrons 3 arrows. I'm glad that they are making the change and if it causes players to leave the game, then maybe they feel winning will be to dificult for them without cheating because thats almost what they have been doing. Although it has been legal. these players have found a way to make thier figures 20-40 points cheaper and wizkids has said it ruins the game play by coming out and making the rule change. If you dont think the game had a serious problem try playing an artifact senerio, 9 out of 10 times the guy who gets the artifact first with the double flying team wins Hey Wizkids how about fixing the turtling problem next by forcing a guy who passes all his moves during the first round to take 1 click on the figure of his opponents choice. and make it manditory that if the judge feels one of the players is turtling that he can award the game to the turtlers opponent after a warning.

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by Bart_Clinton
Kingofkod, it's the same distance from one corner to the other as it is from one side to the other. It's just as easy to use the GL/Livewire combo to get to a building than it is to hit them on the ground.

Then why not fix the GL team ability instead of hindering all of the fliers in the game?

I have a feeling one of the Wizkid executives is a big Kang fan and this is the only way he could think of to make him not suck total a$$.

[Killspree]

Looking at the article that is written and noting the few special changes i.e. Power actions and taxiing. I'm figuring that Indy clix is Independent. It's not compatible with the existing game because it's got rules that don't exist for the other 2 universes. In order for those changes to be implemented for DC and Marvel you would need to reissue the rules for both systems' starter boxes unless they rule that the game must come with a disclaimer that it requires INTERNET access to play for rules updates. Indy looks to have some nice figures but right now it's looking like it's a stand alone system. If they decide that they want this rule for taxing changed then I'll have to adjust and my LSH and GL that I've waited almost a year to get can go sit in my box because they all fly and have been made incompatible for a team. Hey! I can taxi 8 other folks (only if those 8 folks are all non fliers without battle fury and aren't carrying objects or don't have costumes that clash too much with my nice green and black outfit).

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by capsshield
my favorite kind of game is the one in which my opponent taxi's his firelord or doom and then kills my first or second most important piece causing the game to shift in point balance before i get to play. on my second move i try to get into position to attack or attack. my opponent pushes his taxi team after my ranged attack because i couldn't get close enough and heals. my team is now sitting out in the open or i push to chase or run. my opponent uses his second set of taxi team wipes out a second crucial piece, and the chance i had to win is over. not only does my opponent win but i walk away disapointed and end up waiting a half hour till the next round. once i used doom and firelord together and decided that that made it way to easy to win and turned the game into a slaughter. i think the game went three rounds with a couple of pushes. theres all kinds of things they could do to change the way the game plays, and they will make changes. they do test what they do and they did make a great game. the last time i looked i remember seeing lots of colors on a lot of the dials of the flyer's out there. mandarins mind control at a range of 12 or ultrons 3 arrows. I'm glad that they are making the change and if it causes players to leave the game, then maybe they feel winning will be to dificult for them without cheating because thats almost what they have been doing. Although it has been legal. these players have found a way to make thier figures 20-40 points cheaper and wizkids has said it ruins the game play by coming out and making the rule change. If you dont think the game had a serious problem try playing an artifact senerio, 9 out of 10 times the guy who gets the artifact first with the double flying team wins Hey Wizkids how about fixing the turtling problem next by forcing a guy who passes all his moves during the first round to take 1 click on the figure of his opponents choice. and make it manditory that if the judge feels one of the players is turtling that he can award the game to the turtlers opponent after a warning.

Your most important figure dies from 1 or 2 blast from firelord? You might need to rethink your character selection because Cyclops will be doing the same thing to you.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Kingofkod
Your most important figure dies from 1 or 2 blast from firelord? You might need to rethink your character selection because Cyclops will be doing the same thing to you.

Natural Selection.

Firelord tactics will not work with Cyclops.

Run him over to my side of the board, let him take his shot, he'll never get back.

[CaptainMarvel]

Originally posted by CaptainMarvel
I think the new rule will be, any taxied figure may not make an action until the next turn.

As for the game being ruined, The article states that the game will be easier to play and understand, they didn't say it would be easier to defeat your opponent. The game will take a much differant stratigy and team configuration.

I think most of the people who are upset feel that way because the teams that they know how to win with become much diffrent now in terms of affectivness. THey don't want to give up thier sucsess.

Hey I mean who does right? But Now at least all of the formulas for sucsess won't be the same and the out come won't depend soly on the dice.

Not to mention that if everyone is just going to use the same figures all of the time then why make more and if Wiz does make more why make anything but effective flying units.

JMO

Thats what I think.

[kwsazul]

My $0.02
My only problem with the rule is for support. I can understand how some people would be bitter about their power figures being wiped out in one turnby other power figures being taxied, but what about healing. The more damage you take, the less you can move, being able to carry your "wounded" fig back so he can get healed should never be taken out of the game. TK will become alot more useful now, but its main hinderance is line of sight. And honestly most characters lose TK way too fast. I am also hoping, hoping that the rule to powers is not changed too drastically. Getting a token for outwit or perplex would drop the values of many charcters very, very low. And what fun would the game be without hookers?

[YouCan'tStopMe]

Maybe it's somthing like this:
Whenever a flyer carries another figure, give the carried figure a Power Action Token. Figures with Power Action Tokens may not move but may attack as normal, if it does, replace the Power Action Token with an Action Token.
Power Actions do not use up an 'Action'.

Of course, I'm just talking out of my butt, I'm sure it's nothing like that.

One question I do have, if someone could please answer me is this:

What exactly is the problem with a flyer carrying another flyer? How was it broken? Can someone describe to me the situation? Thanks.

[GL2814]

"Anyone who complains obviously uses the yoyo cheese! If you are a good player, and I am sure you are, then make a new team, be creative!!"

If you are a good player, you could beat a yoyo cheese team, and then wouldn't need a rule to get rid of them.

[Hack-n-slash]

My group has been playing without fliers carrying fliers since the game began. [We all felt it was comic-book silly.]

Our games are not boring.
Our games do not lack fliers {of any and all point values}.

I don't see the big deal from a fun/playability standpoint.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by Kingofkod
Then why not fix the GL team ability instead of hindering all of the fliers in the game?



Becuase this fixes a lot of the problems. Not just the Green Lantern one.

CaptainMarvel, yep thats your opinion, again. I think pretty much most of us know what the rule is going to be. Or at least have a good idea. SOme people are jsut hoping for it not to be that rule.

YouCan'tStopMe, well there is lots of reasons. The single biggest reason, I can think of, Fliers carry Fliers limits the number of good pieces you can use. If this rule, Fliers cant carry Fliers, is put into effect. The number of good pieces, you can use, will increase. Which is good for everyone.

[YouCan'tStopMe]

Originally posted by Manchine


YouCan'tStopMe, well there is lots of reasons. The single biggest reason, I can think of, Fliers carry Fliers limits the number of good pieces you can use. If this rule, Fliers cant carry Fliers, is put into effect. The number of good pieces, you can use, will increase. Which is good for everyone.


Hey Manchine, I've read alot of your posts before and know that you don't talk out of your ###.
What I don't understand is this:
Let's say that I want to be cheesey and make a First Strike team, so what do I do? I set up my flyers, perplexers, TKers (or whatever I need to get across the board first) up and then use them to get, say, Firelord or Ultron out to blast my opponent. How does the proposed rules change on flyers stop this? I could still use a just as powerful non flying ranged piece to do the kill shot. There must be something I'm missing. What exactly is the broken part?

[Manchine]

It will take about twice as many actions to make a FIrst Strike Team. Becuase you will no longer be able carry those free move fliers out there. It also cost you more points to do this. It will also put your FLier (which will probable be your only good piece becuase of the points cost) all by itself Which it then will be smacked by a well balanced team.

[WarHULK]

Those of you who complain about first strike teams actually believe this ruling will stop that? So instead of having some flying cannon taxiied in you'll have a grounded cannon taxiied in and blow away your important figures first turn. Let's see here... Cyclops, Bullseye, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Despero, Darksied, Klaw, Boomerang... all these figures with a taxi are still very capable of first strike gameplay and can do 3 or more damage.

So, like I've said, the issue is more the fact that you can make a ranged attack after being taxiied, not the fact that fliers can taxi other fliers... this hurts many fliers... Troia, Dove, WonderWoman, U Superman, Vamp Batman, Zatanna, Apocalypse, Sauron, Dr. Doom... most specifically these figures. These figures are useful in BtB combat and many of them suffer emensely from the new ruling. Zatanna was going to be one of my most used peices but now if fliers cannot carry other fliers she becomes all but useless. She will almost never have the chance to use her 3 square forceblast now. Troia and Dove also suffer severly from this new ruling.

Well, anyway, I've spent enough time on explaining this. I just think they miss diagnosed the real problem and thus hurt the game... that is if the ruling is like it says in this thread.

[LuckyJ]

I think the power tokens will be only for Outwit and Perplex...Maybe only Outwit. I'm actually very happy about that because a bunch of cheap Perplexers and Outwitters shouldn't be able to take out Superman or Thanos or Doom so easily, y'know? You pay ALOT of those characters and you might as well just pretend that they don't have any defensive superpower because of how incredibly effective Outwit and Perplex are (and how much cheaper they are than Invulnerability and Impervious).

I am generally happy with the Flyers/Flyers ruling. A few characters I play with alot like V Circe, Dove, and Storm are pretty much worthless now (not Storm so much). My Deathbird/Superskrull and Human Torch/Moondragon duos are officially unplayable, also.

But my biggest frustration will be if Perplex takes an action on characters above, say 60 points. Especially on my beloved XP Elektra, the power is almost entirely wasted if she has to use an action for it. Heck, the entire character becomes sickly overpriced if that's the case! Think of the other characters who would never use their expensive Perplex: Doc Samson, Mr. Fixit, Enchantress, Dr. Doom, Doc. Ock, Green Goblin, etc.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the end of the speculation. I know for sure that I'm not buying any more clix until I know what game I'm playing. Anyone else feel the same?

[YouCan'tStopMe]

Originally posted by Manchine
It will take about twice as many actions to make a FIrst Strike Team. Becuase you will no longer be able carry those free move fliers out there. It also cost you more points to do this. It will also put your FLier (which will probable be your only good piece becuase of the points cost) all by itself Which it then will be smacked by a well balanced team.

Ok, here is the first strike team I usually use. 200 pts.
2 x R Mandroid Armor 56pts
1 x U Wasp 44pts
1 x LE Operative #128 16pts
1 x R Firelord 66pts
1 x R Paramedic 08pts


I'm able to first strike w/o even needing to have wasp carry firelord at all. So
A) if they're trying to fix the first strike 'problem' couldn't they find a better way since flying isn't the only way to do it. (Heck you can avalance/conartists/U Flash for under 200pts which is nasty too. Or if you don't like mixed games HQ/ U flash which is less nasty but still good)
B) If there's another problem that i'm unaware of what is it? Seriously, I'd really like to know. Can you spell it out to me. My brains are on vacation today.

[SLAYER X]

The reason makes sence to me, it makes it alot harder to attack people right away. Fliers not carrying fliers does suck a little though because everyone says fliers don't carry each other in the books but GL does carry other JLA members with his ring through space in needed. It doesn't bother me too much though, I am looking forward to all the new rules especially the new power action, I hope it makes useing outwit and perplex cost an action token. Right now those powers are very abusive because you can have conartists and people like black panther sit back and never do anything yet they still have a big affect on the game.

[Wasteland]

Yes, now people will be using TKers instead of flyers to get the cannons to battle. But the downside is it leaves the flyers in the open. I'm happy about the rules change. People will use their big guys like they are supposed to be used, and building their team around them, as opposed to waving Wasp or a Doombot taxi Thor to running shot some hapless figure...It makes the game much more playable and fun, and to all those who are concerned about the rule making other figures unplayable should stop complaining and actually try out not carrying flyers and see if it's much more balanced. My god, now ground pounders might actually be used instead of people shooting from across the map...Sounds much more interesting to me...

[Ghost_Rider_92]

yes, those that are mentioned above CAN do some damage (1+2 RCE) BUT that is better than a 3+2 RCE from firelord. toughness and INv will help the little RCE'ers whereas firelord still gave INV 3 clicks, for less points.

If you want to throw or even taxi the one shots over to try to take out one of my guys, go ahead, be first and strike, cause being that far from your medic will just make it easier for my charge from home people drool over the meat dangling in front of them.

Now, when I play, i do not turtle, but I sure ain't gona throw someone in their face and HOPE to take them out quick, cause If I miss or Critical Miss, then what? Nah, I'll take the board slow with a "Team" and get the job done efficiently.

If you think it's not the dice, I had Hypersonic Supes MISS a E checkpoint medic on his first click. now that is embarrassing cause left me right smack in his deploy area with an entire army staring at me.

So even if i do play first, I never first strike.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by YouCan'tStopMe
Ok, here is the first strike team I usually use. 200 pts.
2 x R Mandroid Armor 56pts
1 x U Wasp 44pts
1 x LE Operative #128 16pts
1 x R Firelord 66pts
1 x R Paramedic 08pts


I'm able to first strike w/o even needing to have wasp carry firelord at all. So
A) if they're trying to fix the first strike 'problem' couldn't they find a better way since flying isn't the only way to do it. (Heck you can avalance/conartists/U Flash for under 200pts which is nasty too. Or if you don't like mixed games HQ/ U flash which is less nasty but still good)
B) If there's another problem that i'm unaware of what is it? Seriously, I'd really like to know. Can you spell it out to me. My brains are on vacation today.

Again that puts firelord way out in the front. Also he is your only big guy and he will then get smacked. So again that prevents that first turn kill. Also that wont kill any important guys just hurt them.

[CaptainMarvel]

Are fliers like women are they not supposed to be hit?

I keep seeing people say "Now my flier is out in the open" or somthing to that sort.

So what, most fliers have Inv and toughness.

They were desighned to take damage. I understand thier valueble but some make it seem like they should stay in the back or be able to retreat at will.

Theres nothing more fun than getting a good flyer stuck and wailing on him with a dumpster.

[kaizot]

While I'm looking forward to how this rule change will vary game-play, the actual ruling seems a little haphazard. How many times has GL made a green bubble around the entire Justice League and flown them to another planet? Most of them can certainly fly.

I'm with WarHulk in that it was the excessive ranged attacks after being taxied that is really any kind of problem. And the simplest solution to that would be to extend the restrictions on RCE and CCE. Make figures unable to use these two powers if they have been taxied. Firelord now only does 3 after a lift. Bane hits a little less until the next turn.

Either way, the game will still be interesting and fun. The only fear that I have is that these rule changes might encourage players to turtle more often. That would be a shame.

[Spidersense]

From what I can see, this rule does not eliminate the "first strike". What it eliminates is easily getting away after making the first strike. You can still do it, but you will be more open to counter-attack then you would have been before the rule change.

And I dont buy AT ALL the argument that Bullseye and Cyclops are going to be the new Firelord or abused figs. There is no comparison to Firelord. The debate has never been about Firelord's stats, but what those stats COST. V Cyclops costs 78 points. That is alot for what he does. V Klaw is used by alot of my friends and can be difficult, but again, he costs in the 90s and is very hard to heal.

Also, if you base Bullseye, Cyclops or Klaw, you take away RCE. Not so with Firelord. That is the other hangup people have with FL - no way to stop him from using RCE (except Outwit obviously).

I am looking forward to seeing how this rule plays out. Let's give it a chance. So far, from what I have read, a good number of people who had already implemented this rule liked it. I have only seen a couple that totally hate it.

[sdkid86]

grrrrr....i really can't stand these changes...why make them now...i knew Indyclix would ruin this game...what's with this "power action"!!!!!!!!!!

sdkid86

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Manchine
They are very useful. Just have to send them (fliers) with a supporting character instead of a taxi. Gonna have to actually think about what you want to do before you do it. Gonna have to think who you want with who instead of think what taxi do you want with who. It will actually become more of a strategy game.

I hardly feel that reducing the options available to break through the already tough to beat static defense tactic will make Heroclix "more of a strategy game". Currently the taxi mechanism is the only reliable method of dealing with an entrenched opponent in a straight KO match (TK is strictly inferior, due to leaving your units unable to easily reposition). And the simplistic "move into position or attack, not both" mechanic of Heroclix will ensure that advantage remains will the defender. Decreasing the number of counter tactics - and thus the number of incentives to attempt other tactics - makes for a *less* "strategic" game.

[TheLion]

Which is the next BS tactic that WK needs to address. Being able to pass and sit their and do nothing is just as bad.

But I guess that will p!ss a whole other bunch of players that uses that as their main tactic.

Oh well, let them quit, too.

[Manchine]

The Turtle part of this game is already broken as it is. We do not know if that part will change with the new rules. Although you still can get around that by having WOnder Woman taxi in a character to put in Base to Base with that and next turn have Wonder WOman push and charge.

[IceHot]

Have You Considered That The Rule Elimantes Double Moving And Says 0 About Taxing And Then Attacking!

HYCTTREDMAS0ATATA!

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Jadehorde
I mean taxiing in comics is rare...

And so are bricks running up to an opponent and stopping, getting smacked around by that opponent, taking a breather to avoid over-exerting themselves, getting smacked around some more by that opponent, and then finally taking a swing.

Yet that's the current state of Heroclix. As much as people harp on the over-use of taxi service, the bottom line is short of giving every figure Running Shot / Charge its the closest thing most Heroclix figures have to the "charge in swinging" that you *routinely* see in comics. As long as Heroclix is stuck with its simplistic "move or attack" mechanic, we're not going to get close to what you see in the comics, but at least taxiing gives you the same end result.

Its been said before, by many people, that the biggest complaint is the double move allowed by taxiing flyers (if it was simply the "taxi in and shoot / swing" aspect, they'd have banned taxiing altogether). And that the obvious solution is to disallow any carried figure to perform a move action in the same turn. Add my voice to the list of those advocating this simple fix, rather than a more draconian and short sighted "flyers can't carry flyers" change.

[Manchine]

One of the biggest rules changes has been to the flying speed mode.W hereas flying units used to be able to carry other flying units ?creating a situation in which flying characters could essentially get two actions per turn by being ?taxied in ? by another character ?the new rules prohibit this.

Says it right there. Fliers cant carry fliers.

[Manchine]

Its the best and simpliest solution.

Disallowing a move action doesnt fix anything.

[IceHot]

No it doesnt say that at all. That is how you interpreted it, not at all what was said.

Perhaps the rule change prohibits the Double Move.

It is not at all clear what "THIS" is refering to. It is most likely that you need to read the whole paragraph before jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

[Manchine]

No thats how you interperet it. Most people read it as says. FLiers cant carry fliers.

[IceHot]

Are you familiar with the scenario "STAND ASIDE! "

[XocgX]

I'm understanding what you're saying, that all he is saying is that getting 2 moves is prohibited, but I'm also going to quote Ockham's Razor here.....the simplest solution is usually the right one.

1) Flyers can't carry flyers. simple and it makes sense.
2) Anyone carried can't make a move. why? they have no toekn...would they push to? it gets foggy and either way is the more complex answer.

The article also mentions the new rules are designed to make the game easier. Why create scenarios where people can't take actions that are legal on a certain turn? Can this ranged guy shoot? Yes, but not now because he was carried.....confusing, more to remember. Can wasp carry thor? no, flyers can't carry flyers....ever. not situational based on what ELSE happened that turn. Finite. Never is easy, sometimes raises questions.

It's possible 2 is the rule, but I would put the odds highly against it.

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Manchine
The Turtle part of this game is already broken as it is. We do not know if that part will change with the new rules.

Unlikely. "Move or attack" inherently favors not moving. Lack of facing in the game system prevents effective flanking attacks (the real world answer to defensive postures). Any rules answer forcing move actions, short of making every Heroclix scenario require some goal (even this doesn't often work, as the player who positions their attack units near the goal(s) first wins by simply picking off their opponents as they are forced to move in), will certainly feel contrived and "un-comic book like".

What is evident is most supporters of this "fix" ignore the fact that taxiing was the best "paper" to turtling's "rock". For all its faults, it provided the *one* solid alternative strategy. The answer isn't to outlaw "paper", its to come up with "scissors".

[Manchine]

Thats his name I was trying to figure out who said that for the longest time.

[IceHot]

Your abillity to quote a Line from Movie is not a subsititute for rational thinking.

The question is what situation is being prohibitted by the new rule? In other words, what is WizKids trying to fix.

In order to understand the answer you must first understand the problem. Since we all know the answer is 42, let's move on to the problem.

In order to understand the problem let's take a look at the afore mentioned scenario "STAND ASIDE!!!"

[Manchine]

Yet we dont know if they will have fixed that one yet Marshel Law. WIth this fix they will probable fix that one also.

Also I have yet to have a problem with TUrtling. Everytime I have faced it I have handled it. THe easiest way is to use boomerang with ultron. Which follows the new rules.

[Manchine]

What does stand aside have to do wtih anything?

Sorry but having fliers not carry fliers fixes a lot of problems with the game. If you cant read back and read them then thats your fault.

[IceHot]

Well this is the scenario that causes problems for WizKids because it is completely broken by a team such as
V Firelord + U Vision.

Please read the scenario and see how broken this team is.

The problem is 2 flyers can cross the whole map. This is what the new rule will prohibit. It is not the flyer being taxied that got 2 actions and is causing concern. this is a standard nechanic essential to the gaem. It is the flyer who taxied and then got taxied who effectively got to move twice and that is what is broken and being fixed.

[I_Blame_You]

I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've taxied a flyer with another flyer. I win my share and lose my share of games. How does this make certain figures useless? I'm honestly seeking to understand what that means.

[Manchine]

Thats part of the problem IceHot, but the no carrying flier rule fixes more then jsut that. What ever it is. I dont see how a vision and firelord are so bad. Whats the link to it.

[Braden]

Braden agrees. He can think of a few solutions:
1. Always play with some sort of scenario. This makes the game fun and takes away those people who want to sit on a roof the entire game.
2. Make a house rule that if not all characters are pushed the player must use at least one action.

Thus spoke Braden, and the truth was said.

Manchine:
What does making a rule that flyers can't carry flyers really fix? One stupid piece, and one stupid strategy. It also makes no sense. Why is it that wasp can carry hulk but not iron man? Is there some great advantage that flyers have that carrying them makes it any worse than carrying another ranged figure?

Originally posted by TheLion
Which is the next BS tactic that WK needs to address. Being able to pass and sit their and do nothing is just as bad.

But I guess that will p!ss a whole other bunch of players that uses that as their main tactic.

Oh well, let them quit, too.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by Braden

Manchine:
What does making a rule that flyers can't carry flyers really fix? One stupid piece, and one stupid strategy. It also makes no sense. Why is it that wasp can carry hulk but not iron man? Is there some great advantage that flyers have that carrying them makes it any worse than carrying another ranged figure?

This fixes a lot of things. Really do we have to go through all this all over again. Its been explained what it fixes. Please go and read the reason. People are getting really tired of repeating it over and over again. Its been explained enough times. It has nothing to do with who can carry who. It jsut makes better gameplay.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Braden
2. Make a house rule that if not all characters are pushed the player must use at least one action.


I like this one the best. At least Captain turtle has to move a different figure each time, even if it is to move up then back.

Scenarios that are not "Last Man Standing" are good, too.

Captain Turtle's worst nightmare is "Wholly Hurricane."

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by I_Blame_You
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've taxied a flyer with another flyer. I win my share and lose my share of games. How does this make certain figures useless? I'm honestly seeking to understand what that means.

Because of the fact it gives your opponent 2 turns to make your character useless before they can do anything. Also most of the flying bricks as good as they are are not very good at all if you're having to push them.

I would like to know what massive amount of new figures will be on the board now to make the game more exciting. Is Kang going to get played now? Every game has a Top Tier and all this is doing is making it different characters, i doubt you'll see many new characters come into play. Firelord will more then likely be replaced by Cyke, bullseye, and Kang but besides those 3 I really can't think of a whole lot of characters that will be unsucky now. So....who will be the new characters that will see the light of day? I'd really like to know.

[Braden]

This puts flying characters at a distinct disadvantage. Think about it. Why does no one use blade? Decent attack, toughness, BCF, stealth, for only 33 points. Its because he can't be carried (and his attack is a tad too low, but mainly its battle fury). Now flying characters will have the same disadvantage.

How many characters that start with battle fury get used? One. And its spiral who has BCF and flurry.

[IceHot]

In the "STAND ASIDE!" scenario you can win the scenario every time without your opponent getting a single turn simply by fielding Firelord and Vision. Why? Because you can cross the map in one turn.

I hypothesis that the new rule will be as follows:

NEW RULE: A flyer may not carry a charcter that has already taken an action in the same turn.

Let's consider this:
1) the rule is simple
2) the rule does not effect the delicate balance of the game nor the math formulas used to calculate the price of units
3) this rules does not target specific units
4) this rule effects fliers and non-fliers a like
5) this rule fixes the "SATND ASIDE!" scenario

I strongly believe this to be the forth coming rule.

[IceHot]

P. S. misquoting occam's razor really gets my feathers ruffled.

[I_Blame_You]

Originally posted by Kingofkod
Because of the fact it gives your opponent 2 turns to make your character useless before they can do anything. Also most of the flying bricks as good as they are are not very good at all if you're having to push them.


Okay, I guess I see what you're saying...but IF this rule happens like some 'fear'...it applies to your opponent to an equal degree that it applies to you...right? Take what you stated above: if that's true then you, too, will get some of these same opportunities.
Like I said in the time since this game was introduced, I've flown flyers maybe four times. I've used a healthy about of TK. My point is, I don't typically do it and my win/loss ratio hasn't suffered remarkably. I just can't see getting my panties all in a bunch over it.

[Braden]

Braden thinks IceHot may be on to something.
This is good for a variety of reasons outside of game play. First it makes sense that if you are being pulled out of combat that you should be too injured to attack, but it allows a flier to carry a fighter up and hit someone.

[Greenandgold]

Here's a use for Firelord. Turn 1 have him taxi in V Sabretooth who charges your opponent biggest gun, basing both the gun and his taxi. Sabretooth knocks him down turn 1 and pins him down (unless breakaway). Firelord pushes to finish on turn 2.

Heck, you could even taxi in a R Thug and have the thug run forward as a 6 point tie down piece.

This rule change doesn't make the game any more or less strategic, it just changes what the strategies are.

[IceHot]

All though I completly disagree with most peoples interpretation of the rule. Should they be correct you better buy some stock in R Thugs, because they will be the best piece in the game.

[Doc Savage]

Banning flyers carrying fliers is a good rule for this game.

It is a game. Just barely a simulation of comic book battles. In a 200 point game, 3 characters can't walk down a street together. Do we need to fix this? No.

We're dealing with a simple rules board game. If you want a more realistic simulation look elsewhere. Squad Leader comes to mind.

The flyers can fly themselves. It's not that big a change, and simple to understand.

[Bloodsword]

Here'and idea. A figure may carry any other figure but the carrying figures speed is haved. SO you can still have Doombot carry Ultron but only at have speed, same if he carried te hulk. Just an idea.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by IceHot
NEW RULE: A flyer may not carry a charcter that has already taken an action in the same turn.

Let's consider this:
1) the rule is simple
2) the rule does not effect the delicate balance of the game nor the math formulas used to calculate the price of units
3) this rules does not target specific units
4) this rule effects fliers and non-fliers a like
5) this rule fixes the "SATND ASIDE!" scenario

I strongly believe this to be the forth coming rule.

Fliers not carrying fliers.

1) Fliers not carrying fliers is even simpler.

2) Fliers not carrying fliers does not change the points formula since taxiing was never put into the point formula. So infact its even better.

3) This rule affects everything evenly. Fliers can taxi to support (not the power) them. Non fliers go in with less Support and jsut a Taxi.

4) This rule fixes more then jsut Stand Aside scenario still dont know exactly what it is and how legal it is or how bad you rule lawyer.

5) This rule makes a lot more sense for most comic purposes.

6) More characters get to be used then there had been before. WIth any other rule. Which means more money for Wizkids.

7) First Strike teams are harder and more dangerous to user to use.

8) Makes it more of a strategy game. Becuase fliers will need to rely on there own flying ability and not a taxi to pull them out.

We can argue about this all day. Or you can just accept it and see what happens.

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Braden
Braden agrees. He can think of a few solutions:
1. Always play with some sort of scenario. This makes the game fun and takes away those people who want to sit on a roof the entire game.
2. Make a house rule that if not all characters are pushed the player must use at least one action.

Once again my tendency for not taking seriously anything said by someone who refers to themselves in the third person is reinforced. Lets dissect this latest bit of tripe:

1. It makes those roof sitters instead position themselves around the scenario goal, nailing you when you have to show up. That is in those cases where the scenario doesn't already hand the game to the turtle - such as any "guard" scenario. Normally in a straight KO match when you face turtles you're at least not forced to walk directly into their kill zone, there's usually some option for picking your own position. Analyzed carefully, most of the scenarios enhance, not hamper, the turtle factor - even if at first they appear not to.

2. Takes the award for Crack Pipe Rules Design Idea of the week. Its hopelessly contrived and artificial (i.e. doesn't make sense as a game rule, doesn't add or enforce any comic book reality). It has little effect on teams with numerous figures (someone in the back can always spin doing something without consequence). It penalizes for no reason "eggs in one basket" teams that point most of a small number of points in a single figure. And it does nothing to address the problem it intends to correct (even the most staunch turtle team tends to reposition somebody, or take a shot, during each turn). More importantly, it adds that age old game system design flaw - the scratch your head while thinking "I have to do this why?" rule.

Again, look at how other *successful* tactical game systems (or for that matter, actual battle tactics) counter the static defense. They do so with the use of highly mobile attacking forces, overwhelming numbers, or both. Its pointless to ignore, worse yet attempt to proscribe, this time tested reality.

[LuckyJ]

Are my figs the only ones with Stealth? I mean, jeez! If you don't want to be shot at from range by a turtle team, use Stealthers. It's somewhat cause and effect: you move in their range and they either get spanked by your Elektra/Wolverine/Lady Shiva/Catwoman/Martian Manhunter or they can move out of their formation and attack your Stealther. It seems that the turtle tactic is completely ineffective against a player with a taxi, an attack over 9, and a click of Stealth on their team.

The rule where flyers cannot taxi characters that have taken an action is pretty good in resolving the hit-and-run Bullseye/Firelord/Crimson Dynamo problem, and I like it for the most part (well, I like it about as much as breakaway.. :ermm: ). It doesn't address the multiple-flyer/Firelord first strike. Maybe with the rule about RCE/CCE not working with being taxied in combination with the hit-and-run rule we would have an effective rule change that doesn't prohibit flyers carrying flyers.

And for anyone who thinks flyers don't carry flyers, read X-Men once in awhile. Jean, Polaris, Storm, Lifeguard, and Rogue have all been carried by a flyer in the past year because they were injured...and they fly...but it NEVER happens in the comics, does it?? THAT is why I think flyers should be able to carry flyers (because they can and do).

[Braden]

Braden did not advocate these as offical rules, just ideas to fix a problem others have. If you played the battle royal matches and were forced to move or get shocked then you would see how much it sped up the game. If Braden were playing against a friend and he continually refused to move, I would either quit playing or try one of those solutions to fix it.

Be warned Marshall Law, the Braden does not forget. Refusing to take him seriously is a terrible mistake.

[sol]

Originally posted by IceHot
In the "STAND ASIDE!" scenario you can win the scenario every time without your opponent getting a single turn simply by fielding Firelord and Vision. Why? Because you can cross the map in one turn.

I hypothesis that the new rule will be as follows:

NEW RULE: A flyer may not carry a charcter that has already taken an action in the same turn.

Let's consider this:
1) the rule is simple
2) the rule does not effect the delicate balance of the game nor the math formulas used to calculate the price of units
3) this rules does not target specific units
4) this rule effects fliers and non-fliers a like
5) this rule fixes the "SATND ASIDE!" scenario

I strongly believe this to be the forth coming rule.
I hardly think this 'fix' is aimed at fixin a stupid scenario:

I can see Leithussuer now:

"I think Stand Aside is unbalanced. All I gotta do is use 2 figures i may or may not have that my opponent could also use if he has em to cross the board in one turn, throwing off the entire feel of HeroClix. Let's turn the world of HeroClix on it's ear to fix this scenario that guy IceHot plays."

Get real. It's all about Firelord, and possibly Green Lantern (which if it is GL, at least the intention is in the right place, but it still sucks).

As I have stated before, I am against turning the game topsy turvy for 'cheap' playing styles that CAN be countered. I am also against making an entire group of figures less useful because of the same reason: Play Style. And I hated Crimson Dynamo before? Ha! He is totally useless now. In the end, flyers will end up being sitting ducks once they have dropped off their cargo. We will almost never see Firelord in serious play again (unless the new rule is house ruled away), but who cares? He is one figure. As far as GL ability, it can still be used effectively, but no GL/Free Move/Attack Combinations will be possible.

I'm not one of these players that either a: doesn't understand the implications of the rule change, or b: relys on any 'chesse' tactic. I will adapt to the new rule. I don't even think it's neccesarily a bad rule, to be honest. I just don't like my options taken away from me. As a Judge, i will leave it up to the players, but i would be more than happy to house rule it back to the way it was.

Of course, next they will take that right away from us too...

[m1s1n]

I'm with sol on this one:after the rule is completely clarified I'm going to talk to all of the players at my venue and see if they want to go with it or if they all want to quit because of it.

[RanmaSolo]

"flyers don't carry flyers in the comics!"

Um, yeah, reputed many times all ready... Yet... Along with

"This will make it more of a strategy game!"

That's the ONLY #### things I've heard in defense of this possible retarded ruling. Machine, shut the F!&# up! You say one thing and one thing only, I _don't_ wanna hear it anymore. Someone else ACTUALLY explain the ACTUAL strategic mechanic that's being changed or implemented here? Why isn't it the SAME GOD DANG thing to taxi in a different RCE'er? A different long ranger bomber? How is NOT just EXACTLY the same #### idea to perplex up some hypersonic monster with about 10 hookers and Avalanche to GOD like proportions and have him first turn kill your most useful figure? What's that I hear? Oh yeah, SILENCE. You can't do it. It doesn't ADD strategy at ALL. It just changes it to a DIFFERENT dominant, cheezy Strategy Supreme.

I _will_ explain the mechanics that make Mandarin nearly useless here. For his point cost I can get a different ranged mind controller, a couple perplexers to match his twelve range and an outwitter... Only all these people are easily mobilized by taxis, thus making them a whole lot easier to use and get into attacking position. Since you can only move or attack, first turn advantage to Mandarin who moves up while a taxi and grounded figure move up and get in position.... Opponent's turn. Outwit Mandarin's energy shield, mind control him, he mind controls his own powerful figure (after outwitting charge so YOU don't have to) takes HIS damage and that big grounder who WAS ready to attack the opponent just WALLOPED the hell out of, and possibly killed his taxi. Mandarin clear, taxi tries to limp away with big hitter. Other team tries to incap Mandarin, fails, outwits his mind control, pot shot at heavy hitter misses. Mandarin tries to hit enemy mind control straight up... Whoops. Nope... Not quite. Outwits minds control. Hitter is repositioned to attack again. Other team see's this. They move out of range of his charge, kill his taxi, hit him for a couple points with perplex after invulnerability. Outwit outwit. Mindcontrol works... Perplexes own damage, hit's mind controller. Outwit back, outwits mind control. Ignore heavy hitter, position and multi attack Mandarin, putting him in RCE but no outwit... He kills a perplexer next turn, pushing into outwit and turns off an important LOS perplexer... Moves hitter to be taxied by Mandy... Whoops, just moved the perplexer because of taxi flexibility, Mandarin dies. Entire team can now focus on heavy hitter who no longer has charge.

Outcome? 141 point Mandarin... Still good figure... However will he be used? Not likely. His battle fury (That's what not being able to be carried is called...) minus protection from mind control makes him a blight on your team because he eats up WAY too many points. Imagine Thor with battle fury his whole dial? Do you imagine spending 187 points on him in a 500 point game? Not likely. Better to grab Darkseid and his comparable damage, especially since he ignores damage reducers... Less cost, outwit, AND the additional option of Mind Control since, as a non Battle Fury fig, he doesn't need to have running shot on his dial to make him mobile. Or if not mixing universes, E White Queen and a couple non-identical perplexers if you don't like dupes either. Up her damage to four and range to 9 with her 10 attack pyschic blast... Wow, that's messed up. You could nearly call her the female Despero.

No matter what you say, this rules change will change things. Duh, it's a rules _change_... But I think it's obvious that it's NOT going to ban flyer flying flyers. Why? Because I have more faith in Wizkids. They're not going to ruin so many things as shown above, while at the same time NOT fixing merely CHANGING the problem, just because we ##### about f'n lame ### Fire#####. (Never played a team with one, never will...) They're gonna break the yo-yo tactic that IS cheezy and they're going to do it WITHOUT breaking Mandarin, Dr. Doom, Doombots, Thor, Circe, Wonder Woman, SOD Superman, Vampire Bats, Amazo [er, never mind this one... He's "borken" all ready. ;) ], Troia, Green Lantern, Zatanna, hell's let's just say "Cosmic Justice" and be done with that, Thanos and I could still keep going but won't as this post is ALL READY waaaay too long winded.

Have a good day, everyone, even you Machine. ;)

[Braden]

What about this as a first strike team:
Experienced Firelord
Vet Bullseye
Plus a bunch of other ####. Firelord taxi's bullseye, who attacks on the first turn. Can be done in a 200 point game even.

[sol]

Originally posted by Braden
What about this as a first strike team:
Experienced Firelord
Vet Bullseye
Plus a bunch of other ####. Firelord taxi's bullseye, who attacks on the first turn. Can be done in a 200 point game even.
So are you against it, Braden? The guy you seemed to be arguing with seemed to be against it too...Did I miss something?

[m1s1n]

Or in a high point game v. lantern carries despero and v. green arrow ( at least) despero still can attack all but the back line.

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by sol
So are you against it, Braden? The guy you seemed to be arguing with seemed to be against it too...Did I miss something?

I think some folks are confusing the standard taxi and shoot team with a true first turn strike team. The first isn't addressed by the "flyers can't carry flyers" conjectured rule, nor is there any evidence it is intended to (otherwise flyers carrying any figure would be banned). The latter requires moving more than just 12 spaces from your opening position, as anything that low is unlikely to be able to hit an opponent that starts on elevated terrain or behind blocking terrain. A first turn strike team requires Perplexers to grossly increase a taxi's movement rate, or more commonly a multiple flyer handoff involving taxiied flyers that then themselves taxi in their payload. Basically something that in one turn puts a hitter right at your doorstep clear across the map, regardless of where you start.

Frankly such tactics are usually one trick ponies, involving a lot of sub par fighting support figures to get one monster hitter into the fray and out again quick. If it works, its devastating, but if that first turn strike doesn't do enough to prevent an effective counter strike (against either your hitter or his ride back home) it can fall like a house of cards. Incapacitate can be effective in such cases, by locking down the hitter while you nail his fragile taxi and leave the hitter stranded. Overall I'd say first turn strike teams are worrisome enough to warrant a change, but the conjectured overkill solution is like putting down your dog because he has fleas.

[TheBeyonder]

I've been involved with a few of these discussions and while I think that the current play environment is very unbalanced,I also think that fliers cant carry fliers is just a little extreme.
With that being said and not going over all my past points, I think that there could be another solution....

What about Super-strength characters being able to either carry or throw others. This would at least balance out all the shuttle bus tactics. Hulk can pick up a building why not let him pick up Capt.America.It would also let us finally be able to do a "fastball special" ,Collosus throwing an enraged Wolverine into someone. I know this will not happen but still could be a fun idea:devious: SNIKT!

[m1s1n]

the fact that super strenght characters can't carry other figs has always baffled me.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by RanmaSolo


What the heck. Hmm obviously this guy has a few loose screws and doesnt understand to many things.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by RanmaSolo


What the heck. Hmm obviously this guy has a few loose screws and doesnt understand to many things.

[mark6574]

Sure a taxi can still carry up someone like Cyclops or Kang, but the big difference that I haven't seen many people mention is that if you then go into B2B with both Kang and his Taxi, Kang can no longer use RCE. His damage is greatly reduced. Especially if you base the taxi and kang with someone with Plasticity. You can go B2B with Firelord, and he can still RCE you all day. Those 2 points of damage is a huge difference and is why it won't just be the same game but with a grounded figure like so many of you have said.

[shin-goji]

I have to repeat, Sentinels are now the taxi of choice. They can carry a flier and the flier can also attack. Sentinels don't count as fliers. If they do, then I can't wait to go soaring with a Sentinel :) Try and rescue your precious Colossus now!

[shin-goji]

How about this. Flyers are basically being punished, can you agree on that? Their usefullness is not eliminated, but it IS diminished.

So what will be done to make this up? Why penalize a cluster of figures without giving them something in return?

[Thanosied]

Holy #### I have to agree with shin-goji? Man we both hate the thought of these new rules. Wow. Well all the points have been gone over several times and I have to agree that something is being taken away from fliers and because of that, the ground units now have an unfair advantage. This power ability will probably try to be wizkids counter to this. Using up an action for Outwit or Perplex to take away a bit of what would partially why ground units would be superior. If this is what they have planned why didn't Wizkids just make a new game? Thats what they're doing.

Where people actually ever fearful of the GL ability? I don't believe so. You get that ability at a crippling cost of 81 points. What a waist. What will now happpened like I stated in page 5 is that any already good ground units would now become great. I understand that the power action that may be planned will probably affect Perplex and Outwit, but what about Team Abilities, Leap Climb and Charge which would then seem the most logical overpowered abilities. If there is a rule change and is Universal in Heroclix where was the play testing involved in this. I never got that email. I have to say that come August we will all have to adapt to a brand new game and low and behold the power that is Mr.Hyde and Hawk. LOL go power twins.

Oh and the Sentinel still sucks and Firelord as example is a moot point come up with something new its getting tiresome and old. If you haven't figured out how to beat him yet it will never happen for you so sell your pieces to me. :devious:

[PantherPriest]

I have no problem with the new rules, because for the most part I don't taxi very regurlarly and I almost never taxi a flyer.

However I do agree, and have said for the longest that flyers need to be able to attack grounders while soaring; or something to this effect. Especially since they're bieng weakened.

Now if they start giving people running shot and charge more, then thats another thing

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by *!Arkangel!*


<snip>

And yes I know that flyers don't carry flyers in the comics................Except when one flyer is injured........Or when one flyer flys at a considerably faster speed than another (Superman)........Or when Green Lantern carries other characters through space......Gee, that looks like quite a few exceptions right there......This argument is totally flawed.....In fact when I think of characters carrying others in the comics, the top two that come to mind are Spiderman and Batman......But wait a minute, they can't carry anyone in Heroclix?!?!?! This calls for a rules change!!!!!!

<snip>

Sure folks, this is a comic book game, but many aspects of comic-book realism cannot carry over for it to function as an aggressive strategy game.....And back to the comic-book realism thing, sure flyers might not carry other flyers very often in the comics, but this does not mean that they should be physically unable to.......It is, I'm sure we can all agree, a little silly to suggest that the mighty Thor cannot carry Wasp merely because she can fly.....Similarly, it is silly to suggest that Wasp can carry the Hulk, but not Shadowcat, merely because she can fly......

I am interested to see what will happen, anyway....The flight-speed thing that is mentioned in the article suggests to me that the rules change is not as simple as flyers not carrying flyers, but we won't know for probably at least a month.....So in the meantime we should all enjoy the game we love!!!!

And I mentioned as much in my post. There ARE exceptions to flyers carrying flyers in comics. However, my point was that how often does it happen?? Since you seem to know so much about Supes and GL and unconscious characters...please, go to a comic store and please relate to me how many flying characters are being ferried into combat. Any given Wednesday will give you a couple dozen comics to choose from...each one roughly two dozen pages featuring hundreds of characters..please quote me your overwhelming amount of evidence that "......This argument is totally flawed."

Find me more than one instance where a flying character is ferrying another in a comic on any given day...sure though the course of comics, roughly 65 years you'll find some instances, but show that it's significant...is it more than .1% of the time??

[Thanosied]

Please lets not get into a debate is the combat in HeroClix relative to the comics. Of course its not and getting rid of taxiing wont change that. The fact is the are able to carry a character into combat. Surely we all realize that it rarely ever happens outside someone taking a ride on the Surfers board but woop di doo. Do any of you see Beats ko'ing Thor in the Comics? Hell NO. But low and behold it happens in Heroclix. Thats because its a game. The fact that this rule maybe implemented means some sort of mass remake in alot of the rules is in order which means a completely new game system.

I don't mind I can adapt ad overcome but Im just saying it makes some of the greatest charcters in comicdom pretty #### ####py if you ask me. Isn't Ironman bad enough already? Now he can't even be Taxied around. Should we all expect a remake of all figures to make them realistic tob each other? ie. The X-Men not being one tenth there power in the game. I don't think any of this is relavent. I just know that talking about realism to the comics is not the way to go because its gone past that. The fact that anything in Heroclix with Blades Claws can actually damage Juggernaut or Superman outside ADAMANTIUM is just plane stupid to me so realism has been thrown out the door when the game was released.

[Manchine]

Actually people with Running Shot or Charge become even better with this set up Thanosied. SO Iron Man actually gets a little more useful. :p :p :p :cool:

[Braden]

Braden is currently opposed to the new rule, though the actual wording may change that.

Braden's first strike team was in fact not a true first strike team as someone pointed out because it could not get to figures on top of a building, unless of course you put in a mandroid and a wasp. You need three actions to make it work, and its kind of stupid. But any tactic that puts your best hitter all the way across the board on one turn is pretty dumb.

Originally posted by sol
So are you against it, Braden? The guy you seemed to be arguing with seemed to be against it too...Did I miss something?

[Thanosied]

In theory RS gets better but the only thing that its better than is a flying figure without RS. I think any flyer with the exception of low cost wild cards and the very cheap of the cheap taxis will be a little less useful. I mean Human Torch and SuperSkrull had a great yo-yo affect and thats lost as is the inheint advantage to building a team around a taxi that flys in a Thor or Doom for a long range RS attack. To say that RS actually improves doesn't make too much sence to me. It doesn't improve it decrease less than the none RS fliers.

I still see some really good uses for RS so I won't say its #### its good. I can say however that RS does go down a little because there extended range due to a taxi is gone now and that was the best part of the skill. All the same its still decent and usable but even with a stealthed charcter in front you, you can only cove rwhat 1 of 8 possible angles to the figure without stealth. That seems pretty week to me dude. But hey what does this rule really offer to Marvel? It cripples Marvel. DC however is laughing and finally saying "here comes the pain".

[Kingofkod]

Machine, which characters are going to get used more? I seriously doubt that this rule is going to make a massive amount of characters useful now. I'm pretty certain if you consider the amount of fliers that turn to #### with the amount of grounded characters who became better I doubt there will be a significant increase in characters used.

Oh and to the guy that said something about Cyke and firelord not being able to use RCE when they're based, why not just make a rules that Fliers can't do ranged attacks when base 2 base? That's much easier then just banning taxiing all together and would make more sense.

Also to the people who say fliers never carry fliers into battle in the comics. Fliers don't carry grounded figures into battle very often either. How often do you see Storm carrying Cyclops into battle???? I see fastball specials way more then that.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Kingofkod
Machine, which characters are going to get used more? I seriously doubt that this rule is going to make a massive amount of characters useful now. I'm pretty certain if you consider the amount of fliers that turn to #### with the amount of grounded characters who became better I doubt there will be a significant increase in characters used.

Oh and to the guy that said something about Cyke and firelord not being able to use RCE when they're based, why not just make a rules that Fliers can't do ranged attacks when base 2 base? That's much easier then just banning taxiing all together and would make more sense.

Also to the people who say fliers never carry fliers into battle in the comics. Fliers don't carry grounded figures into battle very often either. How often do you see Storm carrying Cyclops into battle???? I see fastball specials way more then that.

It's a lot more frequent to say the least...but still not that frequent I'll admit.

Though one is more likely to see GL taxi Flash, Bats, Aquaman...than Supes taxiing Wonderwoman...

[Munster4Life]

Would Indyclix be a seperate tournament universe or can you mix DC/INDY and MARVEL/INDY?

[flipstar]

Machine thank you for sticking with this thread for 13 pages and not losing it at some people. Guys remember this is only a game with bits of plastic. Try and have fun under the currant standard rules, then change if need be when they alter. Most of all keep a sense of humour and smile.

[XocgX]

Originally posted by IceHot
P. S. misquoting occam's razor really gets my feathers ruffled.


Occam's Razor
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything



I may have misspelled it, but that's the gist of it. I certainly added more to it, but I think anyone can logically take what I said out of that.

[XocgX]

Found this too. Really interesting.....http://skepdic.com/occam.html

[Kingofkod]

Originally posted by flipstar
Machine thank you for sticking with this thread for 13 pages and not losing it at some people. Guys remember this is only a game with bits of plastic. Try and have fun under the currant standard rules, then change if need be when they alter. Most of all keep a sense of humour and smile.

Don't let anyone fool you, no one is going to quit the game because of this ruiling. Some people will want to quit and all, but at the end of the day this rule only affects tournament play. You can have fun anyway you want. I for one am pretty pissed about this rule, but it just means that in tournaments I won't be playing pretty much any of the attacking flyers. In casual play Ultron and Mandarin are still gonna be taxied because that is really the only way possible for them to be worth their points. Only a fool would say that TK and barrier are a viable means of making them good again because of the simple fact that that would add around 60 or more points to their cost just because they're flying.

[shin-goji]

We should remember that every character in HC can't possibly measure up to their comic book persona. Rogue would be the most expensive character otherwise:
KO a figure and add any powers on the dial for 1d6 turns.

I think we can agree that the next month will make or break the game. This weekend I will be play testing the new rule with dozens of games to see how it will affect the game. if my players don't like it, we'll act accordingly.

[flipstar]

Nice balanced response shin, good to see level head are still about. As said next month will be a biggey for the game. Hope too see all of you posting on the boards then. Cause this game rocks and should be played forever!!!

[I_Blame_You]

Originally posted by flipstar
Nice balanced response shin, good to see level head are still about. As said next month will be a biggey for the game. Hope too see all of you posting on the boards then. Cause this game rocks and should be played forever!!!

What else would you expect from Shin, a gentleman and a comedian! ;)

[Manchine]

Yep, Shin up there with the best of them. Even though lately I havent seen him post to much. Of course my posting has gone down since I got a new job. ;) :laugh:

Well now back to the discussion. Well now every game I have played so far using this rule seems to be much much better. It makes a whole new strategy and a lot more guys are useable. Other then Turtle games which is still a problem, of course if I had used the team before that. I wouldnt of had a problem. The game is running more smoothly then before.

So my word on this is. Try it in a couple games before you say it dont work. I think you will be surprised.

[Shellhead]

One thing we all can agree with is that this is cause CHANGE.
CHANGE is good. CHANGE avoids stagnation.
People fear CHANGE, but ultimately CHANGE begets more positives than negatives (anyone ride a horse and buggy lately?).

TKers will be much more important. Flyers will still have their uses. Players are going to have to rely less on first strikes and think a few turns ahead (if I go there, he'll go there, and then I can do this; kinda like chess).

I will miss having Wasp and Vision carry Iron Man and Thor into battle. Now Quasar will have to do it.

Ah well.

[shin-goji]

Well, I think a lot of my emotions are not coming out in my posts because as a judge I know someone can report me back to Wizkids. All I have to say is, "I don't like the rules and I won't enforce them at my tournies" and BAM someone with a grudge or a mission makes sure I can't judge tournies ever again.

In all honestly I am violently, savagely opposed to these changes. I will still playtest them to see how they do so I can make a more honest, fact based opinion on the matter.

I think it is very irresponsible of the Wizkids staff member who leaked the information in the interview, knowing what the mindset is of the people who post to HCRealms. Granted the people at the Wizkids forums look down on us, but that is beside the point. The point IS that they basically said, "There will be another terrorist attack, but we won't say where," causing us to panic, flip over police cars, and shoot our fellow HCRealmers accusing them of being Skrulls.

So now we have a change a year into the game that we will ONLY find out about if we buy the starter set for IndyClix. That just looks like bad business.

As a judge I have to TRY and keep a level head, when what I want to do is start flipping the bird at anything that moves. But I see myself as a representative of my local HC Guild more than a representative of Wizkids.

[BAKID]

MANCHINE IS A SKRULL!!!!!

AAAAAAGHH!!!

[mark6574]

Originally posted by shin-goji
So now we have a change a year into the game that we will ONLY find out about if we buy the starter set for IndyClix. That just looks like bad business.
You don't have to buy Indy to get the updates. It says in the very first post that earlier versions of the rules will be updated through FAQs and updates.

[willn_2]

There are other possibilities to the flying rule that have not been taken under consideration. Like, a taxing flier can only move half his speed when carrying other flyers or even non-flyers. I think that would be an (semi) acceptable change to the rule. But, changing rules to help make a newly inserted piece, work is a bad idea. I, like most, do not care for the rumored rule change but I will still play. Wizkids are playing with fire when they make drastic changes to game rules in mid-stream. I don't under stand the concept to fixing something that works and making serious changes to current rules will not make things better. Maybe (now this is a long shot) they should get out of the office and see what is going on in a “normal” gaming environment. The game works regardless of the many broken threads.

[Squee]

fliers carring people should never have been in the game without including that superstregth people can carry too
i mean wasp can carry hulk but hulk cant carry wasp???weird

[Taltos]

Well yet again Wizkids makes another mistake to this fine game. Instead of removing other problems such as turtling instead in there great wisdom they decide to remove the flying characters carrying said same type of characters.

Bravo well done, do you feel special: Why not deal with the overbalancing of team abilites of DC which Marvel cannot have equal footing with such as the following:

Batman team ability: Free Stealth
Superman enemy team: Free Outwit

Of course though Wizkids cares not the opinions of players for no matter what people will still buy there product and in the words of the some of the creators this is not a serious game unlike Mageknight or Mechwarrior.

I for one will not stand for this and plan on selling my heroclix to others for if the company which makes them will not have the game equal or fair why should I support it!

[mark6574]

Um.... ok... what have you got for sale? :)

Seriously people... lighten up... I am sure that they have tested lots of different options out before making these new rules. I doubt they just, on a whim, decided to say:
"Hey... i know what will piss people off... let's say fliers can't carry fliers anymore"
"Oh... I like it... put that in the rules right now..."

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Taltos
Bravo well done, do you feel special: Why not deal with the overbalancing of team abilites of DC which Marvel cannot have equal footing with such as the following:

Batman team ability: Free Stealth
Superman enemy team: Free Outwit


WhatChuBeenSmokin', Willis?

The Superman Enemy team ability is one of the most overpriced, overhyped wastes of good points to ever be shoved into the game. Experienced Black Manta looks at it and says "no thanks, got enough problems with my cost effectiveness."

For evidence, I present to you the Lex Corp Battlesuits. They've got flying. They've got Superman Enemy team ability. They've got....well, nothing really after that. Compare the Rookie Lex Corp Battlesuit with the Veteran Parademon Scout - both slotted for the cheap taxi role, each is about the closest to the other for comparison in the set. The Scout has a 2 space advantage in range, up to 4 space advantage in movement, and has a click of Incapacitate. The Battlesuit has Superman Enemy team ability - and except for being 4 points more has nothing else to show.

Doesn't take much number crunching to realize that team ability is eating up some major points. And IMO the Veteran Scout is no prize comparison (the Rookie, IMO is the best of the bunch - glass jaw, but a fair chance to do 2 damage at range six in a dirt cheap *13* point taxi is strong). What you've got in the Battlesuits are short range, slow moving, combat ineffective taxies that just *might* give you Outwit for 27 points. Field a team of them. You'll outwit everything on the table, and then get pounded to snot anyway as they can't do any damage and can't take a hit. A casual look at most figures with that team ability show they just can't stand toe to toe with other figures for the cost, and its obvious the point cost for the team ability is the reason. Putting a team of any Superman Enemies together (in an attempt to make the ability usable) generally leaves you grossly undergunned against your competition, and the Outwit job is done better just by swapping in figures with that ability on the dial.

The Batman team ability you might have a case for, it doesn't require any Explosion vulnerable deployment to use, doesn't seem to cost quite the same arm and leg, and is routinely useful. I wouldn't mind seeing a similar team ability ported to Marvel, just for the chance of getting a Running Shot + Stealth figure. But then again its a big assumption that the team abilities list for Heroclix will never be added to, so quit your whining until you hear otherwise.

[Askani'son]

I think the new (potential) ruling is a sound ruling, but I'm biased since I've been playing under that as a ruling from day one.

To eliminate cheese through abuse of the rule, my local venue/judge declared long ago: 1) no duplicate named figures (like in comics) and 2) flying characters can't carry each other. It's never cause any of the guys I play with a bit of trouble.

If flying characters can't be carried, that's not a big deal. They can fly--they can soar above the field, go from ground to roof in a single space, and not be slowed down by hindering terrain.

I've seen complaints on how some people can't taxi in their Thanos/Ultron/etc., and I think that's BS. Those figures are powerful enough on their own. Most of the time when the opponent is getting close to them, they'll become targets for Thanos/Ultron/etc. first. That's why those guys have what they have: big ranges, big powers, big damage. They don't need someone to carry them around, and they never did.

It comes down to the arguement that the game will become a lot more like chess. Just think of it that way and it'll be fine.

Now, before I lose everyone, I do think there should be an exception to flyer not carrying flyer.

The Green Lantern team power is expensive and GL characters are usually the only guys who get away with carting the entire Justice League around. I think a Green Lantern member should be able to carry flyers, 8 of them if he wants to. Either way, he's getting a token, so make that team just a little nastier (and, by extension, the Legion as well).

If you see a bunch of people carried in by a GL coming toward you, just smile and look at it as a big target for a lot of energy explosion.

But other than Green Lanterns, I think that flying characters can get out on the field by themselves. Or you can just have them wait by the starting area and blast the competition when they get close.

[xfdragon]

trust me, this is NOTHING compared to the disaster that is MechWarrior - they've changed rules with almost every FAQ as well as having broken units up the wazoo...

be glad that HC is as good as it is and only needs a tweak here and there - as it is, the MW game they released less than a year ago is already mutated far beyond what it started with and ain't getting better!

jmo, ymmv...

;)

[mark6574]

Originally posted by Askani'son
The Green Lantern team power is expensive and GL characters are usually the only guys who get away with carting the entire Justice League around. I think a Green Lantern member should be able to carry flyers, 8 of them if he wants to. Either way, he's getting a token, so make that team just a little nastier (and, by extension, the Legion as well).

That is what I was thinking, too. I think that the GL team ability is a special power and they should be able to carry anyone. The only problem there, is that people will then be using rookie GL and a wildcard and they can still do the yo-yo. If they say that GL team can carry anyone, then they would also have to say that the GL team can not be used by a wildcard. I personally don't think a Wildcard should be able to use GL because they don't have a ring and there is no way to duplicate it. Almost all the other team powers could be shared in some way.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by mark6574
I personally don't think a Wildcard should be able to use GL because they don't have a ring and there is no way to duplicate it. Almost all the other team powers could be shared in some way.
That argument is flawed however.
Dr Doom could easily build something to simulate the GL ring. The Legion all come with flight rings that they could lend out to their teammates. Ultron could tinker with a flying platform. The list is endless. The abiilty doesn't duplicate the ring, it duplicates one aspect of its powers.

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by kdem2357
power action? Will outwit and perplex take an action now?

I will stop playing Heroclix

[NeoFascist]

power action? Will outwit and perplex take an action now?

I will stop playing Heroclix

I will start playing HeroClix. Well, of course I already do. However, while I doubt they will do this, I think it would be fine. Games change, folks. I know it is sad to have to change your strategy and thing rather then using the same tired old teams, but it happens.

You people remind me of Civil War and WW1 leaders. Can't adapt to change.

[vlouden]

I wanted to read the pros and cons from most posts before I chime in. Personally I don't see the big deal. Now before I pi$$ everyone off let me explain. The most valid argument against the change is the fact that higher priced fliers w/o RS have seen the END of Days. Well, in every collectable game there will always be cards or minis that are less playable tourney wise than others. We have no problem dismissing Puppet Master, Blob, and Changeling. I understand that these are single "individuals" instead of a group like fliers sans RS/Charge. I personally play more close combat style anyway. Which brings me to my next point. Fliers already have a distinct advantage over nons since the faq re: hoving figs can ALWAYS make ranged attacks no matter how many enemies they are based with. Just think about why Soaring can only attach Soaring.

Again-This could all be for nothing and WK does not make a change. TK,Barrier,Stealth will be more useful. And will not cost more than 32 points. the Same as R-Hawkman. You just won't get that free move taxi that we've come to love. ;)

I know I am forgeting a few points, so I will wait for replies and respond accordingly.

[StormKnight]

I am guessing that the "Power Action" they refer is not something that will make Outwit and Perplex take an action, but just a name to put on actions like Regenerate instead of the incredibly cumbersome "Give this figure a move action but do not move it". Instead they will just be able to say "Give this figure a Power Action and..."

A question about actual IndyClix - they comment on the Witchblade sculpt in "full witchblade armor"...ummm, is that the Witchblade figure they showed in the starter add? Because calling that "full" or "armor" kind of amounts to a major misuse of the english language...or will that sculpt be a regular R/E/V one and there will be something different as the unique? (Never read Witchblade, so I know nothing about it).

[shin-goji]

Ok, everyone needs to calm down. Outwit and Perplex will not require an action. This is basically a clarification of the rules, not a rewrite. This is from the WK forums from DR Gandalf.

It's basically to clear up matters that you CAN Perplex or Outwit a distant character if you are based with an enemy character.

[darkkard]

Ok I haven't been able to read every page of this extensive discussion, so maybe some body has mentioned this. I'm not sure. But...although I agree with the rule change overall, I am concerned with 1 small aspect, the capability to "pull units out". In a base to base conbat, I can use a flyer to "pull out" or "taxi out" a ground fig, but not a flyer? That is going to make flyers vunerable to being "based" as a strategy. Having said that, I will comment on why I personaly think I will like this change. In my experience in playing, I have tended to see that flyers carried enough of an advantage that i have passed up interesting but less effective ground fig. I think that will change. I think, for me, that adds more interest to the game and breaks up some of the monotony of constructed games.

[Answerman]

you know I'm bummed out by this new ruling myself....
I love heroclix, won't EVER stop playing or buying, will still introdude the game to everbody on gods green earth(so far thats made a good dozen or so more players!!! *i should be gettin a cut...oh wait I do...I get all thier doubles...:laugh: )
I don't like the new ruling because it the old taxi rules DO simulate comics quite well in some ways...
Martian Manhunters stunned and on the ground, Superman comes and carries him to saftey to catch a breath while Supes goes back in to deal with the threat...

So with the new rule in play...a flier can never taxi a flier...

So J'onn's gotta sit there now wondering why supes just fly by him...

wheres the logic in that?
it just seems a tad backwards to me to think that fliers can't assist fliers....
as a matter of fact looking at it logically fliers should be easier to taxi if anything...

To think that a flier can save a grounded character from being locked in combat but that a fliers at the disadvantage in the same position...
its really just kinda stupid...

argh its a definate head ache...one that I'm sure I'll get used to , but wish I didn't have to...

alright nothing to see here, rants over..
hey whos goin to San Diego?
Should be all sorts of Clix fun there next week no?

[Answerman]

you know I'm bummed out by this new ruling myself....
I love heroclix, won't EVER stop playing or buying, will still introdude the game to everbody on gods green earth(so far thats made a good dozen or so more players!!! *i should be gettin a cut...oh wait I do...I get all thier doubles...:laugh: )
I don't like the new ruling because it the old taxi rules DO simulate comics quite well in some ways...
Martian Manhunters stunned and on the ground, Superman comes and carries him to saftey to catch a breath while Supes goes back in to deal with the threat...

So with the new rule in play...a flier can never taxi a flier...

So J'onn's gotta sit there now wondering why supes just fly by him...

wheres the logic in that?
it just seems a tad backwards to me to think that fliers can't assist fliers....
as a matter of fact looking at it logically fliers should be easier to taxi if anything...

To think that a flier can save a grounded character from being locked in combat but that a fliers at the disadvantage in the same position...
its really just kinda stupid...

argh its a definate head ache...one that I'm sure I'll get used to , but wish I didn't have to...

alright nothing to see here, rants over..
hey whos goin to San Diego?
Should be all sorts of Clix fun there next week no?

[Answerman]

double post...argh... somebody shoot me right in the faceballs.....:devious:

[shin-goji]

Again, this is mostly rampant hysteria. I'm hoping WK will bow to pressure from the envoys to let them in on the scoop before everyone else so we have time to prepare before the real explosion hits.

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by NeoFascist
I will start playing HeroClix. Well, of course I already do. However, while I doubt they will do this, I think it would be fine. Games change, folks. I know it is sad to have to change your strategy and thing rather then using the same tired old teams, but it happens.

You people remind me of Civil War and WW1 leaders. Can't adapt to change.

huh? you re no better since you called neo fascist... a fascist is a fascist... a believer in a failed type governement........ also neo-fascist is a "new label" but contains same old idea and belief...

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by NeoFascist
I will start playing HeroClix. Well, of course I already do. However, while I doubt they will do this, I think it would be fine. Games change, folks. I know it is sad to have to change your strategy and thing rather then using the same tired old teams, but it happens.

You people remind me of Civil War and WW1 leaders. Can't adapt to change.

huh? you re no better since you called yourself a neo fascist... a fascist is a fascist... a believer in a failed type governement........ also neo-fascist is a "new label" but contains same old idea and belief...

[Manchine]

Originally posted by shin-goji
Again, this is mostly rampant hysteria. I'm hoping WK will bow to pressure from the envoys to let them in on the scoop before everyone else so we have time to prepare before the real explosion hits.

I agree with shin there on that tid bit.

[sierralegend]

Originally posted by NeoFascist
I will start playing HeroClix. Well, of course I already do. However, while I doubt they will do this, I think it would be fine. Games change, folks. I know it is sad to have to change your strategy and thing rather then using the same tired old teams, but it happens.

You people remind me of Civil War and WW1 leaders. Can't adapt to change.

:rolleyes:

you re clearly no better since you re believer in fascist government, sigh. fascist is the old government philosophy which was clearly failed idea.
neo-fasicist the word itself is like a new label which covers the old tin can, the old idea which was nutured by the evil man,adolf hitler.

i chosed to not play if the "outwit ability' will cost me a action token. it is clearly a very democratic behavior which shows myself as a believer in democracy.

lastly, i do feel sorry for you.

[sierralegend]

nevermind the post # 224 and #225.. it was not suppose to be there...

[mark6574]

Originally posted by Answerman
Martian Manhunters stunned and on the ground, Superman comes and carries him to saftey to catch a breath while Supes goes back in to deal with the threat...

So with the new rule in play...a flier can never taxi a flier...

So J'onn's gotta sit there now wondering why supes just fly by him...

wheres the logic in that?

This argument is the same thing people keep bringing up. But the thing is, you all say that when one flier was unconscious or hurt, another flier has flown them to safety. In this GAME when someone is unconscious, they are on their KO click and are removed from the board so you don't have to worry about saving them.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by sierralegend
:rolleyes:
lastly, i do feel sorry for you.

Feel sorry for yourself. Your argument is moot.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Answerman
So with the new rule in play...a flier can never taxi a flier...

So J'onn's gotta sit there now wondering why supes just fly by him...



Here's a radical concept. Get your medic to the high cost flier.

Which opens up:

Where do I position the medic?

Which figure is the most vulnerable and likely needs a medic in the field?

And from the opposite side of the board (since they got rid of shortboarding):

Where is my opponent going to position his medic?

Should I waste an action killing his medic in the field?




At least with whatever they come up with it will cut down on the "hide the medic" strategy.

Let the game evolve. Simple shouldn't mean brainless.

[Answerman]

mark6574, I said nothing of the sort about Martian Manhunter being unconscious.

If you read what I wrote again you'll find that I said
"stunned and on the ground" which I interpret as a character thats either pushed or been in-capped.

or even just a little busted up (taken a couple clix of damage) for that matter.

again, I'll state that it's illogical and kinda forced to imagine that a flier can rescue a non-flier but that somehow a character with the ability to fly is unable to be assisted...

Does that make more sense to you, or were you just being plain ol argumentative?

[Answerman]

TheLion,
I agree that the game should evolve, and have no problem with that what so ever...
and really we're all discussing something that hgasn't even happened yet, and might not even be iomplemented the way we think.

but if it does happen to go the way we're discussing, I think it'd take the game a step away from realism/simulating comics/rpg style gameplay...

but of course I'll still love and play the game with the loyalty of a crackhead!!!!!

wait a sec...crackheads aren't loyal.....:confused:

[Answerman]

man I REALLY gotta start using that spell check....

sorry for my nearly incomprehensible drivel folks...

[Smurf Torch]

I think this really has nothing to do with how a comic book is but how the game is. Think about it they would of took away everyone's taxi ability, if that was the case.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Answerman
but if it does happen to go the way we're discussing, I think it'd take the game a step away from realism/simulating comics/rpg style gameplay...

Which this game isn't and has bever been. It can't take a step away from something it isn't even standing near.

[TheBeyonder]

O.k. people I'm speaking to those of you that are concerned that their high price fliers are going to be useless.
The way I and a whole lot of peole in these discussions look at it is that fliers have always had an unfair advantage.
I defy any of you to win a competative tourny with no fliers. It cant be done in the current environment.
The "Yo-Yo" tactic albeit very effective is equally lame. There is no way to justify that Vulture is a more usefull character than Wolverine,Hulk,Prof.X, or even Cyclops just for the sole fact the he flys.
Fliers can still ignore hindering terrain,soar as not to be hit by a grounder and they would still be able to carry grounders.How in the world can you say any flyer is useless with these other advantages still under their belts.
Fliers had way too many advantages to begin with and I think this rule will level the tourny playing field, to the level I beleive the game was originally intended.

Just my $0.02


And I must do my duty as a "Marvel Zombie" and say.....
D.C. Sucks like a Hoover. :p

[admironheart]

I skipped the last 200 or so posts...but,

In any event...The whole 'argument' over comic book realism is lame. [except 5%,10% or maybe 15%] most DC/Marvel comics rareley have Generics play as big a role in the comic battles[note this is NOT to say they don't play a big role in the comics themselves].
They addition of generics is what is currently the weak link in comic realism.

If you want to play an all AIM team, great...but don't add an AIM medic, Hand Ninja, Paramedic, and a Vampire lackey to your team and expect me to buy anything that resembles a comic book story.

Get rid of generics, and you fix Firelord[who has never been broken] and the yo yo tactics, and most other issues. I rarely play with generics of any type[and only have used a medic like 4 times ever] Most of my teams are 297-300 points even...so it is not difficult to work the points in there.
Most of my teams are themed as well...
THAT should be the focus...not medics, hydra ability, shield team bonuses...etc...that is what is lame...complain about that and not some silly change to the flyer rules

thanks and later dudes,

wes

[TheBeyonder]

I see your point with the medics they just dont have a place in a comic-based game.
But not having generics at all is too much.
If there were no generic fig there would be no 6-10pt figures.
Because you know they arent going to make superheroes for 10pts.Generics are needed for both filler and If there were no generics we would already have every main comic character and nothing to look forward to.
I mean come on do you really want to play with Captain Ultra?:cheeky:

[mark6574]

Originally posted by Answerman
mark6574, I said nothing of the sort about Martian Manhunter being unconscious.

If you read what I wrote again you'll find that I said
"stunned and on the ground" which I interpret as a character thats either pushed or been in-capped.

or even just a little busted up (taken a couple clix of damage) for that matter.

again, I'll state that it's illogical and kinda forced to imagine that a flier can rescue a non-flier but that somehow a character with the ability to fly is unable to be assisted...

Does that make more sense to you, or were you just being plain ol argumentative?
I wasn't going for you directly. It just seems that many people are trying to justify a flier carrying a flier for the very sort of reason you were given. Sure it might happen once in a while. If we were using that logic, we could justify all kinds of crazy powers and wacky things happening to characters. If we were going entirely by the comics, to use an oft chosen example, how often have you seen Wasp carrying other characters, especially like the Hulk or Thing, which is entirely possible in the game. There are a million things that people could nitpick about between the game and the "real" comics. And with your example, when was the last time you saw Supes and Manhunter fighting Doomsday and Supes having to pull Manhunter out to see a paramedic?

[Answerman]

cool, I get you mark6574, and even agree...

[ludd_gang]

Props to the new rule. It makes break-away have more impact, as it should. I believe the designers meant break-away as a last ditch effort, not a means of acheiving victory.

[FireLFighter]

Why Power Action? Why not just "Action"? Give the Character an Action and ...

As long as no flier can carry Firelord, it seems fine to me...

GL-Teammembers expensive? Three Hawkmen 32pts each - 96pts / one GL 81pts (Remember that nasty Phasing)
6 Hawkmen 32pts each - 192pts / one GL 81pts plus one Live Wire 22pts - 103pts

The Green Lantern is more than perfekt on games of 300pts and more... (even if you can't carry fliers - imagine Bullseye, Green Arrow and Klaw been moved 10 (Phasing) by one Action Taking a Medic and 2 Con Artists with them...)

[Answerman]

thelion:

"Which this game isn't and has bever been. It can't take a step away from something it isn't even standing near "

nobody plays this game because its an amalgam of comics simulation and an rpg?

Nobody at all except for me, and everybody I play with...

i don't know why you play the game...but everybody I know plays because it sumuates comic baook action in a very calssic RPG manner.
don't forget that at least part of the reason clix exists in the 1st place was to make an rpg that was easier, and faster to learn,,,or have you not heard of magenight?

yeah theres no campaign version of heroclix yet....but I'm sure it'll happen, and we'll see what you have to say then.

But regarless we clearly disagree, so :
nuff said!

[Manchine]

Ahhh Answerman, but this is a Strategy game. There needs to be a balance between the game and the comics. Wizkids has shown they put the game first compared to what it should be in comics. Becuase if the game is broken it wont make any money for Wizkids. There are plenty of RPG's but there is no Super Hero Strategy games. SO where do you draw the line?

[BAKID]

This thread (and its incessant debate) has become so long I'm pretty sure anybody still paying attention has already made up their mind.

Nevertheless, I'm sure the debate will continue. Heck, arguing about this stuff is at least 1/3 of the traffic on this board :)

But back to the argument--I continue to read multiple claims about the prevalence or lack of flyers carrying flyers. I haven't done a massive survey, but it seems like it happens quite a bit in the comics I read. It doesn't happen much in say, the X-Men, or the Avengers books, but guess what, it's because they have their own planes, and the rest of the time, there are a lot more grounded characters around than flyers. In a book where almost all of the protagonists ARE flying, it happens all the time.

In the Death of Superman/World Without a Superman/Return of Superman TPB's, it happens multiple times, all over the place. LE Superman carries E Booster Gold, Superboy carries R Steel, Supergirl carries Unique Supes, Green Lantern carries everybody. Except for Green Lantern, every single time this happened the Carrying figure had a significant speed advantedge over the carried figure, but it certainly happened. If you want "comic book realism" you would need a rule like this. "Flyers can carry non-flying characters or flying characters with a speed value lower than the carrying figure."

I don't think a rule like that would add anything to gameplay, and would just make the game even mor complicated, but it would enforce more "comic realism".

I think what everyone wants is a balance between "realism" and sensible, fair, and fairly simple rules. What worries me, and I think many other people on this board is that WizKids' idea of this balance seems sometimes to very off, to the point that things done to promote "simplicity" actually make the game harder to understand, and less intuitive. For examply, try telling a new player that your bullseye can happily shoot over your opponents Wasp to hit his Kang, because Bullseye is on the roof and Kang is on the ground, but *Kang* cant shoot Bullseye back because Wasp is in the way. Or try to explain how they can't see Logan in the hindering terrain, but his figure blocks their line of sight to the Storm right behind Logan. I think Wizkids solutions to ambiguities and problems is often solutions that "simplify" the game rules while making it more complicated when you actually try to apply them to real games. That's why we're all waiting for the actual text of the rule with bated breath.

[daedalus25]

I still feel that the problem with taxiing is not so much a matter of comic book realism. Some say fliers shouldn't carry fliers because it doesn't make sense to do it in comic books. Other say they should because it doesn't make sense to give non-fliers so much of an advantage.

The problem lies in the fact that taxiing is being used as a means for first strike. Saying that fliers shouldn't carry other fliers because it doesn't give the game a comic book feel is completely inadequate. What actually takes away from the comic book feel is the fact that fliers are required to get a first strike at all! Sure they give some characters charge and running shot, but I feel every character should have a limited form of this ability.

Mage Knight: Dungeons still has the best rules I've seen for clix, and applying it to Hero Clix makes for a very fast paced and exciting game. Taxis are less of a necessity since every figure can move and attack in the same action. Plus there's that threat of a counter attack after every attack which adds a risk to every attack. Sure you can attack and then taxi your figure to safety, but not before I get a chance to counterattack!

We haven't tried using the facing rules yet, but so far it's been a nice change.

[Answerman]

hey Manchine I agree that its a strategy game (as well as the basics of an rpg), but what really makes it a strategy game is the fact that you build teams for a fight based off thier points, as opposed to just playing a character for a campaign.

The reason I started playing Heroclix was that it has the best stats, and game play for a superhero rpg since DC Heroes, and TSR's Marvel rpg of the 80's...
IMO every attempt at a DC or Marvel RPG (saga, DC universe, and even the new marvel RPG) just ended up biting backside...

the characters, the way they interact, and stack up, for the most part are just a big relief to me, (even if they still need a proper Supes, thats similar to the new Bizarro...)
But IMO they are just like an rpg character sheet, and a figure rolled into one!

Draw the line?
well IMO Wizkids should try to apply a bit more of a Mageknight spin on heroclix, and have the figs with levels like the sentinel, and sinsestro. Or at least try to incorporate the notion of campaigns into it...
so what I'm getting at is that Heroclix can be both quite easily.

BAKID, I completely agree with you , but I will say that I'm not decided on how the rule we're waiting for will affect things...just that at this point it doesn't sound very progressive to me...


daedalus25:
I'm all for trying to incorporate some mageknight goodness to heroclix...

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Answerman
thelion:

"Which this game isn't and has bever been. It can't take a step away from something it isn't even standing near "

nobody plays this game because its an amalgam of comics simulation and an rpg?

Nobody at all except for me, and everybody I play with...

i don't know why you play the game...but everybody I know plays because it sumuates comic baook action in a very calssic RPG manner.
don't forget that at least part of the reason clix exists in the 1st place was to make an rpg that was easier, and faster to learn,,,or have you not heard of magenight?

yeah theres no campaign version of heroclix yet....but I'm sure it'll happen, and we'll see what you have to say then.

But regarless we clearly disagree, so :
nuff said!

Clix = Strategy game

Champions, Marvel Superheroes, DC Heroes = RPG

Until you inderstand the fundamental difference there is no debate.

Even if they bring out campaigns it still will be a strategy game.

'Nuff Said.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by Answerman

The reason I started playing Heroclix was that it has the best stats, and game play for a superhero rpg since DC Heroes, and TSR's Marvel rpg of the 80's...


Oh yeah thats what drew me in also. Played Marvel RPG Religously back in the 80's. I still have a lot of those stats memorized.



:cool: ;) :laugh: :cool: