View Full Version : WizKids Changes General Tournament Rules
WizKids has just updated their General Tournament rules to include the following changes:
<B>General Tournament Rules</B>
<B>First turn immunity.</B> You may not attack or damage any opposing figure that is currently in a opposing player’s initial deployment zone (starting area) on the first turn of play. Figures moved or set up outside of this deployment area (starting area) are subject
to regular targeting rules.
<B>Dice Etiquette.</B> All dice must be rolled at the same time. If one die is not laying flat on the playing surface or falls off the table, then all dice should be rolled again.
<B>Playing Area</B> When a game is played on a map larger than 3X3 you always deploy on the longer side.
These changes go into effect August 28, 2003.
hmm...I assume that means the player's first turn, not the absolute first turn.
Cannot be attacked or damaged...does that mean if a figure is just out of the starting area and you EE it, any splash damage that would affect figures in the starting area is ignored?
Spiderine
08/13/2003, 20:41
I like this!
PsychoDBoy
08/13/2003, 20:41
Yay no super hardcore GL strikes will be happenin anymore during the first turn. How swell that is. Of course not going into effect til the 28th does me no good for the 800 pt DC tourny tomorrow....there's gonna be cheese all over that one. Was the dice etiquette thing that bigga deal to have to be put into effect as an offical rule tho?
New addition to the list of most frequently asked questions:
Is Force Blast an attack?
YES!!
AWESOME, this finally implements the way we play with my house rules anyhow, I am so happy they removed first turn tactics :) :) :)
Anything that shifts the balance of power away from teambuilding and towards play strategy is a good move in my opinion -now people will have a chance to react before some long-reach team wipes them out first turn.
Only problem I see, is that this will probably only encourage the people who win the roll to go first, choose the map, and then pass.
shin-goji
08/13/2003, 20:44
I like all these rules. the first round rule is VERY useful!
crimsonduck
08/13/2003, 20:52
This does seem to make going first a disadvantage now surely?
Therefore would most people not `pass` that is not move at all rendering the team immune from damage for the opponents first turn?
Have I lost the plot here?
Map larger than 3x3....is that feet?
Right, so either the 2nd player is forced to move first (which he may or may not mind, depending on whether or not he's playing stealth) or both players will pass, invalidating the new rule.
(Although, on the whole, I approve of the ruling, don't think I don't....but I'm still examine it closely :-))
crimsonduck
08/13/2003, 20:57
Interesting idea - I will have to see how it pans out in game play. Not that I ever get to a tournament.
ANYONE IN NORTH EAST ENGLAND DO TOURNAMENTS???
IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL. :) Great.
Ultimate_Thor
08/13/2003, 21:19
Oy, I could have used this rule last night. :)
However, I've always tried to get the second turn because I've often had the problem when I have the first turn that I am just setting myself up to be attacked by my opponent on his first turn.
So, with this rule, now if I go first, I can only go out onto the map and try to "hunker" down my force for my opponent to attack me, since I can't attack him first turn.
Thunderbolts
08/13/2003, 21:31
Well and truly RIP shortboarding...
Xavier PhD
08/13/2003, 21:37
haha i think i'm the only one that loves that roll two dice at the same time rule!
i've never seen anyone roll like this until i went to a tournament out of town... it was really annoying.
sniksder
08/13/2003, 21:46
ok, maybe i am wrong here, but this seems to me that the first turn of play belongs to the first player and that player cannnot now attack first, but that the second player makeiing the second turn of play CAN make a attack on the first person weather he passes or not.
And even if you think that it should count for both players first turn, then both will pass and the first player on his second turn will just move and attack the second person just like it was the first turn......
I like the new rules, but I think that it is important to do something to discourage "turtling." At my club, we place two or three tokens approximately equidistant between the two players (i.e. center, rt center & lt center). Possession of a token at the end of the game is worth 50 points. Any figure can pick up a token as part of a move action. Once acquired the figure retains the token until he voluntarily drops it or is knocked out or knocked back. Adding tokens encourages aggressive play because it is an advantage to obtain the token first. It also adds an interested strategic element. Should you add someone like Quicksilver to your team to make an early token run? Should you hide a player with a token (and thus be shorthanded in battle) or should you risk losing the token? There are many other solutions to turtling but the token approach is simple and effective.
redskindavyd
08/13/2003, 21:58
I like 'em, now only 100 other changes needed to make the game just right.
Great. Now all we need to do is outlaw Firelord, and pretend Penguin never existed, and we'll be nearly golden!
Spock wrote:
>>Right, so either the 2nd player is forced to move first (which he may or may not mind, depending on whether or not he's playing stealth)>>
Which can already happen.
>> or both players will pass, invalidating the new rule.>>
Doesn't invalidate the new rule. The new rule exists to prevent someone from getting destroyed before they take a single action. It successfully prevents this. If they choose to not do anything with their first turn, and then they get destroyed anyway, they got destroyed having had the opportunity to take an action.
-Peter
Originally posted by Matrim
Great. Now all we need to do is outlaw Firelord, and pretend Penguin never existed, and we'll be nearly golden!
That's the first shot I've heard against the Penguin. You've got something against him? :)
As for the rules changes, I was happy to read about 'em though I expected a lot of backlash against them (considering how often people are against change). Is there any chance the change might have been mistyped and that it's to be no attack the first ROUND rather than turn?
GeorgeDaGreat
08/13/2003, 23:59
I love all the new rules.
I broke the first rule today after attacking on the first turn.:p
lancelot
08/14/2003, 00:06
i can still whack someone in their deployment area if they chose to pass their first turn...i came up against an opponent the other day after setting up my GL team in the middle of the board, he passed his turn, i went ahead and pushed GL and went into his deployment area since he had nt moved A SINGLE fig and pretty much took out half of his team...so just as long as it wasnt the first turn, it s legit to attack in the starting area?
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 00:15
I don't like a third of these rules.
Why roll dice at all any more. We should just compare the stats of figures within range and KO the one with the lower stats.
NickCarraway
08/14/2003, 00:23
hey wait, according to the second half of rule #1, I can deploy my team all over the map (because any figs outside the deployment area are game for first move hits.
Or have I just rule lawyered something. call johny Cochran.
Rule #3? got the new maps today and ran them end to end. If I follow the rule correctly, i have to start on the 6 foot side rather than go end to end? that would stink.
CooperMcP
08/14/2003, 00:25
i do not like the new first turn rule at all because either (as already pointed out) you get some turtling OR the first person moves up or dances around and then the second person attacks them as if they got to go first. So the first person had to waste their actions because there was nothing to do. If they used the turn to "set up" their army, they could still just get whacked when they had no chance to damage any opponents. every team i've made up until now was built so that i could taxi or move up and strike on the first turn (usually someone on my left or right because they're closer). with this new rule in order i could turtle (wrong way to play heroclix) or move up a little bit. but if i move up, my guys will already have action tokens on them and totally disrupt my initial planning of action distribution when i made the team. i suppose i'll get used to the rule, but i'm not to happy that i have to change my team-building strategy.
daburton
08/14/2003, 00:25
Originally posted by Spock
Cannot be attacked or damaged...does that mean if a figure is just out of the starting area and you EE it, any splash damage that would affect figures in the starting area is ignored?
Look what it says. FIRST TURN, so there is no way a figure is out of the starting area on the first turn...so your answer would be no. I hope this doesn't sound mean...its not meant to...I'm just stressing the words a bit...
Doug
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 00:38
Round 1 player 1's turn: I pass because I want a first turn KO but can't and I don't want to expose myself like that.
Round 1 player 2's turn: I pass because I cannot also get into your starting area and get a 1st turn KO or even a second turn KO without leaving myself open for a second turn KO.
Round 2 player 1's turn: I fly into your starting area and get a second turn KO.
Round 2 player 2's turn: You wiped out that piece in the first turn and now my team is crippled. Thanks for changing the rules WizKids!
OnedownCharlie
08/14/2003, 00:40
This has gotten as bad as other tabletop wargames which will go unnamed. The rules change every time you get used to them!
CooperMcP
08/14/2003, 00:47
the new first turn rule either accomplishes nothing because of turtling or it screws everything up (as i reflected in my last post). but my question to wizkids is why did you make the rule at all? who was complaining about this? i never noticed anyone whining about the game being broken for this. it just corrupts a great game every time a rule is changed. this truly is a dumb and completely unnecessary rule change.
vkjustice
08/14/2003, 00:49
Originally posted by darius_dax1
Round 1 player 1's turn: I pass because I want a first turn KO but can't and I don't want to expose myself like that.
Round 1 player 2's turn: I pass because I cannot also get into your starting area and get a 1st turn KO or even a second turn KO without leaving myself open for a second turn KO.
That's not exactly true. The rule says the "First turn" not the first round.
In Round 1 player 2's turn, player 2 can run into Player 1's starting area because it is turn 2.
This is different from before as now Player 1 has at least the ability to move his figs if the other team has some nasty energy explosion or an attack that can go across the board.
As opposed to before where this rule where Player1 would come across and Player 2 could do nothing about it.
So it kinda sucks a little to be player 1 now....although that's a 50/50 deal.
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 00:53
Sarcasm revised:
Player 1's turn: I move into position to attack you in my 3rd turn (unless pushing is involved).
Player 2's turn: I KO several of your pieces that were in position to KO several of mine a turn or two from now.
Yes that sounds better.
CooperMcP
08/14/2003, 00:54
if what vkjustice says is correct, that this affects the first turn and not the first round, then the rule is even worse than i already pointed out. now player 2 can terrorize the board as if he went first even if player 1 turtles and stays in his starting zone. so then why did we roll to see who goes first. now it's just like let's roll and the second highest die roll goes first. that's essentially what's happening
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 01:02
see my previous statement
CooperMcP
08/14/2003, 01:05
yeah, saw your post, dax, after i already posted my own. i'm glad someone is seeing how this rule will #### up the game
Wait until the new taxi rules come into play. I have seen the future. It will: A) Drive players away in droves, B) even everything out, or C) Mess things up even more in conjunction with 1st turn immunity. Ahh....love those House Rules more and more.
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 01:10
It is just transferring the KOs to a different round....why not let the first 6 rounds be movement only rounds?
(side note: I have yet to review the INDY CLIX rules and PAC availiable to judges on the WK site).
StormWind
08/14/2003, 01:46
Originally posted by NickCarraway
hey wait, according to the second half of rule #1, I can deploy my team all over the map (because any figs outside the deployment area are game for first move hits.
Or have I just rule lawyered something. call johny Cochran.
Rule #3? got the new maps today and ran them end to end. If I follow the rule correctly, i have to start on the 6 foot side rather than go end to end? that would stink.
No this is for Mechwarrior. Mechwarrior has figures that have the ability to start outside the starting zone. Heroclix and Mageknight (to my knowledge) do not.
StormWind
StormWind
08/14/2003, 01:54
This rule is in place to stop the infamous GL First Strike Fade tactic.
Having had it used on me in a recent tourney here's basically what happens.
First player is playing a GL team. GL moves in (10, 12 whatever). Ultron (or other character with dual/triple EE) drops a big pile of steaming death on the opponent. Wildcard taxi moves them away.
End of first turn.
If the first turn player is STUPID enough to sit in his starting area and turtle then he deserves to get nasty things done to him.
The ONLY thing this rule stops (and since the Indyclix flier rules will be comeing in shortly after) is GL or Firelord First Strike nonsense.
So on your first turn do something strategic... Manuever. God forbid someone would make you think.
StormWind
NickCarraway
08/14/2003, 01:55
Stormwind, what I am saying is that, by extension, if the new rule #1 regarding first turn is obeyed to the letter, it tells me that I can start my characters outside the start zone.
If that was not the case, why would there be a part of the rule stating that characters outside the start zone (and remember, this is only for Turn #1) may be attacked on the first turn?
RavenProject
08/14/2003, 02:04
Okay... let's take a look at these.
<B>General Tournament Rules</B>
<B>First turn immunity.</B> You may not attack or damage any opposing figure that is currently in a opposing player’s initial deployment zone (starting area) on the first turn of play. Figures moved or set up outside of this deployment area (starting area) are subject to regular targeting rules.
What this eliminates is the opportunity for Player One to make a major first-turn kill when Player Two has *no* ability to counter it.
You're correct, that does mean that Player One could simply choose to pass his first turn and deliver the strike on his second turn. However, Player Two still has his turn to take whatever precautions he deems necessary. Move into cover. Set up Barrier. Position his team for a counter-attack. He has options, and with those options he can deny Player One his one-turn kill.
<B>Dice Etiquette.</B> All dice must be rolled at the same time. If one die is not laying flat on the playing surface or falls off the table, then all dice should be rolled again.
This is a case where the second statement is actually the reason for the first. If a player rolls one die at a time, he can see the first come up badly and "accidentally" roll the other off the table.
<B>Playing Area</B> When a game is played on a map larger than 3X3 you always deploy on the longer side.
(shrug) No clue. I've never played on a larger map before, so I couldn't easily guess what factors come into play.
-J
Originally posted by RavenProject
(shrug) No clue. I've never played on a larger map before, so I couldn't easily guess what factors come into play.
-J
The new maps will be interlockable, and the tokens will be people with team abilities, such as Lois Lane and her Superman Team Ability for 4 points.
Personally, I think this rule is ####. First turn hits are a part of the game, and I love doing them. I accept when they happen to me.
I tell ya, they are just sucking the power away from good ole GL. Too bad, he is such a good fig. I have god to thank my friends hate this rule so we can play some fun house rules.
Gacy's Clown
08/14/2003, 03:24
Hmm, I really don't know what to say about these rules. They're not pumping me up at all...
In response to darius dax and others, I think you are looking at this from the wrong point of view. So what are the three possibilities here:
1. Both teams are designed with first-strike capability.
2. One team is designed with first-strike capability.
3. Neither team is designed with first-strike capability.
Obviously, in case 3, this new ruling has little benefit, but also does no harm.
In case 1, I agree that you are probably postponing the inevitable. But both teams were attempting a first-turn kill, and so neither should feel especially bad when it happens. ;)
In case 2, the outcome is determined largely by which player goes first. Suppose that the first-strike team goes second. Not only will the other team get a chance to maneuver before the hammer drops, but he or she will also be allowed to choose a map which makes first-strike more difficult.
Now suppose that the first-strike team goes first. In this circumstance, player 1 will most likely pass, allowing the second player to get into a better defensive position. Certain teams will always be vulnerable to a first-strike, but, frankly, if you choose to just pass in this situation, you probably deserve to get hit :p
My main point is that I don't see how these make the game worse in any way. Sure, not every possibility will be improved, but neither will they be changed for the worse.
These rules have been written for MechWarrior and I doubt that the author gave the slightest thought to how they would affect other games. That's because MechWarrior is for serious competitive play. HeroClix is just for fun, right?
First turn blitzes are a big deal in MechWarrior because of the infiltrate rule which allows some units to start in advanced positions. This is not normal in HeroClix though there are some scenarios which can have this effect.
The die rolling rule probably arises because in MechWarrior they use three dice and one of them is coloured differently.
The 3x3 thing is obviously for MW - HeroClix uses map sheets, not measurements.
A similar thing happened with shortboarding. We had that as an explicit official rule for months in HeroClix (because it's what the rulebook says). I started some discussion of the issue in the official MW forum and, bam, before you could blink the comapny's "general rules" were changed to ban it.
I see this as more evidence of the second-class status given to HeroClix by Wizkids. It stinks.
Andrew
Gacy's Clown
08/14/2003, 04:18
I hate our second-class status!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Psylockeslover
08/14/2003, 04:38
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
I hate our second-class status!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It could be worse....SR:D is the bastard step-child of WK.....it's like a 6th class status.......
Is this such a big deal? how often does this come up that a fig is getting far enough across the board to ko someone on the first turn. It rarely happens in games I have been involved in. It rounds out the game a little more and makes the first strike a little less imperative. I personally don't want to remain in the starting area for the most part and prefer to get into a better location right away, so this is not a big deal.
Originally posted by Heretic
Is this such a big deal? how often does this come up that a fig is getting far enough across the board to ko someone on the first turn. In the CJ marquee, I used two flyers and some TK to move Sgt Rock all the way across the board so that he could throw a grenade (EE) at the other team who were sheltering behind a building. But he missed and so was left hanging out to dry. :)
That seemed reasonable to me but, in any case, the IndyClix rules will stop most such moves.
Andrew
GroovyBoy
08/14/2003, 06:15
I think RavenProject and rotru have the most rational handle on what these rules are attempting to do and what their effects are. Everybody else seems to be running amok like Chicken Littles...
I think RavenProject and rotru have the most rational handle on what these rules are attempting to do and what their effects are. Everybody else seems to be running amok like Chicken Littles...
You and your heartless Vulcan logic!
Is there any chance the change might have been mistyped and that it's to be no attack the first ROUND rather than turn?
The rules are "General Torunament Rules for All WK Games", and in all games, except HC, First turn is First Round.
In all aspects you'll follow the GAME rules (so no "deploy out of the DZ in HC" untill a special power allow you to do so).
Look at the rules and thenn apply them at the game you're playing
Is incredibile how a lot of people seems to enjoy whining without knowing whot are they peaking about.
I'm the only one here that plays also MWDA and/or MK??? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Yoritomo Jirik
08/14/2003, 08:28
ghdhs
krusticlese
08/14/2003, 09:38
If this rule has already been implemented, What would be the purpose of the flyers not carring other flyers rule? I thought THAT rule was supposed to prevent first strike teams?
Let's think about this, why would WizKids implement two rules within a month of each other that basicaly has the same results, ie: keeping your team from getting annihilated while they are still in the starting gate? It would lead me to belive that the flyer rule that is forthcoming may be "no movement action after a flyer is carried". Otherwise, both of these rules in conjunction would be overkill, don't you think?
Just looking to broaden the picture here people...:cool:
I don't really like the first turn blitz in Hero Clix, since that effectively gives you no defense if you don't go first. If you go first now, you're able to at least move your figures into a defensive position so you won't necessarily be hit hard. This is better than getting hit hard before you ever make a move.
Daris Dax1 wrote:
>>Round 1 player 1's turn: I pass because I want a first turn KO but can't and I don't want to expose myself like that.>>
Knowing ful well that you had sarcasm set on "kill", I'll respond anyway :-)
The situation you describe is one that could happen anyway, without the "no first turn kills" rule--anyone can pass and pass and wait for something to happen.
What the "no first turn kills" rule avoids is:
Player 1, Turn 1: I move my whole team with a GL. I do it again. I shoot your whole team with multiple, Enhanced Energy Explosion. Your whole team takes 3 or 4 or 6 clicks of damage before you even get to move.
If player 1 doesn't move first, as he is foiled by the "no first turn kill rule", he leaves himself open to his opponent setting up somewhere advantageous on the map--spreading out to avoid EE damage or hiding in hindering terrain, or something.
The thing is, with this rule, both players have a chance to do something before they get vaporized. Sure--it might not help, but at least you can take actions before you get vaporized.
This being said, this is just more fall out of the serious crack smoking that was the Green Lantern team ability...
-Peter
I wrote:
>>This being said, this is just more fall out of the serious crack smoking that was the Green Lantern team ability...>>
Now that I have read Andrew's post about MW, I revise this, as the rule isn't Heroclix specific. But at least it helps some.
-Peter
The first time you ever get your favorite figure hit before you can do anything to protect it you will understand this rule.
And yes the being able to attack a unit outside of the deployment zone is there for purposes of other games. ( Mech Warrior and the broken infiltrate with the Dragon's Fury Tank Destroyer :( )
The dice rule is nice because it sets the same for everyone. Til now at my venue you just re rolled the one that fell on the floor. Now you have to re roll both, at the same time.
As for the starting on the long side of the board that just forces bigger battles to get it on quicker. If you have to start at the longer side that means that you are closer to your opponent. Most of the time this doesn't matter but you know what when the few times it does you now have a set rule to cover the instance.
These rules do nothing except protec a newbie or anyone from being pounded before they even take an action.
As for the new flyer rule I believe that it will be just Flyer not caring flyer. So that means you can carry the long range shooter with a high movement flyer and shoot someone in the opponents starting area on the first turn. Now you can't do this before your opponent can try and protect their figures from you doing that.
It is a good rule and I like it and when you play with it a few times and realize how harsh it would be if your fig or your opponents were slammed on the first turn how much more fun it is that it didn't happen.
Gaidin
DaLuvster89
08/14/2003, 11:14
Warden -
"The 3x3 thing is obviously for MW - HeroClix uses map sheets, not measurements."
But the maps in HC do measure out to 3 feet squared. Just thought I'd throw that in there.
Krusticlese-
"If this rule has already been implemented, What would be the purpose of the flyers not carring other flyers rule? I thought THAT rule was supposed to prevent first strike teams?"
Yeah, it does seem a bit redundant.
But I'm starting to look at it this way: When the designers sat down and birthed the Heroclix Idea and the gameing system, they didn't forsee it becoming what it currently is; Firelord winning every con, Green Lantern obliviating everything in the first turn, etc.
It seems to me that they are making changes to get the game more "in step" with their original vision of what the game should be.
The problem is that there are a bunch of us who are dead set in our ways; many players don't have a problem with how the game functions now. Many don't see the need for such drastic changes.
Still in "wait and see" mode. I wish I was a Judge so I could get that "sneak peek" at the new rules, that's for sure.
*cough* pm me i won't tell *cough*
Ahem.
That dice rule is all me, though - sometimes I get a little over zealous and roll right off of the table. :)
That map one, though - I dunno. I guess most tables are wider than they are long - or is that longer than wide... I'm confused. :confused:
Just invisioning most long tables - you'd have players in an awkward position trying to play long-ways on a long table. Yeah, that's it. :)
Originally posted by krusticlese
Let's think about this, why would WizKids implement two rules within a month of each other that basicaly has the same results, ie: keeping your team from getting annihilated while they are still in the starting gate? It would lead me to belive that the flyer rule that is forthcoming may be "no movement action after a flyer is carried". Otherwise, both of these rules in conjunction would be overkill, don't you think? You're going to get even more overkill than that. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The driver for the tournament rules change is MechWarrior which is fubar right now - mechs are now weaker than the supporting troops. Imagine a HeroClix in which heroes like Spiderman and Hulk were useless and supporting characters like Con Artists were better. Errr ...
Anyway, the changes in IndyClix are a separate development - we heard rumours of new flying rules being play-tested months ago. The timing of the new tournament rules is just coincidence.
Originally posted by warden
The 3x3 thing is obviously for MW - HeroClix uses map sheets, not measurements.
Umm, just a note.
The HeroClix maps have 24 squares in width and 'depth'. Each square is 1.5 inches wide to accomadate the base of the figures. 1.5" per square multiplied by 24 sqaures = 36" = 3'x3' ...
The new map packs which will be tourney legal at the same time as these new rules provide interlocking maps ... which would make the game-board 6'x3'. That would mean that these rules would apply to HeroClix.
Thus, you're moaning and complaining is unwarranted.
By the way, can we all (ie: the members of the forum) make a mutual agreement to actually start thinking about things before we start whining about them? I think it would greatly improve the demeanor of the boards, especially as there seem to be a lot of people pissing and moaning about a lot of things they haven't even tried in actual gameplay yet ...
Phil Dixon
08/14/2003, 12:28
Originally posted by warden
These rules have been written for MechWarrior and I doubt that the author gave the slightest thought to how they would affect other games. That's because MechWarrior is for serious competitive play. HeroClix is just for fun, right?
First turn blitzes are a big deal in MechWarrior because of the infiltrate rule which allows some units to start in advanced positions. This is not normal in HeroClix though there are some scenarios which can have this effect.Isn't this a good new rule for any game? First-turn walkovers are bad for any system. They've already had to introduce the anti-shortboarding rule to prevent them. This merely eliminates every other possible scenario.
Originally posted by warden
The die rolling rule probably arises because in MechWarrior they use three dice and one of them is coloured differently.And what possible difference does that make? No, this rule is to stop gamesmen from rolling a 1 on the first die, then using the second die to knock it over onto another number. You don't see people rolling dice one at a time at the ####s tables in Vegas for the same reason.
Originally posted by warden
The 3x3 thing is obviously for MW - HeroClix uses map sheets, not measurements.Not all of which are square. If you look at the custom maps people have produced, some are rectangular, and these could easily be used for special tournaments.
Originally posted by warden
I see this as more evidence of the second-class status given to HeroClix by Wizkids. It stinks.
Andrew You need to do something about that persecution complex. If HeroClix receives less attention, that's because it's WizKids strongest product, and simply doesn't need the same marketing effort as marginal-interest games like MechWarrior and Crimson Skies. But these are healthy changes, so I don't know what you're complaining about.
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 12:37
Originally posted by gaidin
The first time you ever get your favorite figure hit before you can do anything to protect it you will understand this rule.
I understand this rule. It has happened to me in my last 3 games in the Play-by-post forum. It bites. But this does not help solve anything, it only delays the game and turns it into a turtle situation. From what I have heard (I have not been to the Judges Forum yet) the new rules will take care of this practice of first turn KOs. This rule is redundant.
I like the dice rule and I don't care either way about the map rule.
Hmmmm. No attacks into setup zone on turn one...
I'm not convinced about this, especialy given the upcoming "Fliers can't carry fliers" ruling for what will become the "type 2" tournaments, once Indy rules apply.
It seems to me that, when I was playing (and losing) to "Shadow" in the final of the Wonderworld Bournemouth tourney the other day, I NEEDED to be able to use my best flier to move my best RCE to shoot one of his 2 Medics into oblivion before he could move...(which I did). Therefore, by pushing, I could move back to base on the second turn, and heal up. The currant state of the metagame play more or less requires that 2 medics are your first concern, and Invisible Girl your second, if playing Marvel. Alternativly, you might choose to out-range the oposition with mind control, eg via Mandarin, but this only gives you a one turn advantage.
Having said that, I was not amused when the same stunt was pulled on my SuperSkrull / InvGirl Turtle in the 300pt tourny at Hidden Fortress, Southampton...("I move this here, fire here, oh look, I hit for 4 clicks, and now I TK Deathbird who can..." crunch/smack/thud/ouch...so much for turtles...)
...all in all, I think it likely that (aside from the Colossus / ConArtist happy dances) we will see Pass actions from both players on the first turn becoming the norm. Plus, I suspect people will be looking to use barrier on turn one instead, now that first-strike is no longer an option.
LoL
All the Best
Noman
Originally posted by Phil Dixon
You need to do something about that persecution complex. If HeroClix receives less attention, that's because it's WizKids strongest product, and simply doesn't need the same marketing effort as marginal-interest games like MechWarrior and Crimson Skies. But these are healthy changes, so I don't know what you're complaining about. Perhaps I should declare my interest. Finalists for MW and MK at Gencon UK won paid trips to attend those games' world championships. The same thing happened in other countries like Germany. I was a finalist in the HeroClix equivalent at Gencon UK. This had more players than MW and MK combined but my prize was an LE5 Annihilus (a figure I already had) and cheap cup. I went to the Marvel World Championship anyway but paying my own way cost about $1000. So, that's the value of the bottom line here. Play in MechWarrior or Mage Knight tournaments and Wizkids will rank you, respect you and look after you. Play HeroClix instead and they don't.
Try reading those General Tournament Rules and you'll find that they're all about terrain pieces, measuring tapes and other MW/MK features. HeroClix is an afterthought, if it gets considered at all. Folk who think that this is all about Green Lantern are mistaken.
Andrew
raphael76
08/14/2003, 12:45
Just thought I'd chime in here with my 10 cents. (inflation, it hurts everyone :-) ) I think this new rule makes a lot of sense. In my mind, this game was always intended to be a battle game, wherein you use strategy and a little luck to beat your opponent. Obviously team-building is important, but I've always felt building a solid team that can react to any situation is more fun and makes more sense than building a one-trick pony. But that's just me. Either way, I think you need to realize its not necessarily eliminating first strike opportunities, but what it is removing is the unfairness of being struck before you've even had a chance to do anything. In real way, that's great. In a game, its not so great.
Ultimately, I think all of these rule changes will help make the games more competitive. I really think that's what they're trying to accomplish here. A battle between 2 equally experienced players should be relatively close (luck not withstanding), as opposed to now where if one guy builds a first strike team and the other guy builds a solid team but it is not first strike capable, then he gets mopped. Shouldn't happen, and I'm glad they're changing the rules.
And the dice and map thing make a lot of sense to me.
averykess
08/14/2003, 12:58
Originally posted by NickCarraway
hey wait, according to the second half of rule #1, I can deploy my team all over the map (because any figs outside the deployment area are game for first move hits.
I think they are making this a sweeping rules change for all Clix games. Mechwarrior has infiltrators that can be set up oustide of normal deployment area. Mage Knight probably does too, but I don't play MK.
The Vision
08/14/2003, 13:07
Great Rule
--It makes the game about tactic and less about 1st turn blitz.
--The second play won't get to terrorize the board because the first player has time to move to stealth positions, put up barriers etc.
--Turtling doesn't work if the other player has any skill at all
TheRavenHQ
08/14/2003, 13:08
Can one still pulse-wave a batch of Con Artist on the first turn?
The Vision
08/14/2003, 13:11
As long as they are your Con Artists that you are pulse waveing, Yes.
The rule says you can't damage 'opposing' figs.
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 13:14
Originally posted by The Vision
Great Rule
--It makes the game about tactic and less about 1st turn blitz.First turn blitz is a tactic. It does leave a figure and it's taxi pretty much defenseless and out in the open. There are ways to take advantage of the 1st Turn Blitz.
--The second play won't get to terrorize the board because the first player has time to move to stealth positions, put up barriers etc.The rule just delays the inevitable...the 2nd player can still do a 1st turn blitz. (This does not take into consideration the new INDYCLIX rules).
--Turtling doesn't work if the other player has any skill at all Right. And it was true before this change.
The Vision
08/14/2003, 13:24
First turn blitz is a tactic. It does leave a figure and it's taxi pretty much defenseless and out in the open. There are ways to take advantage of the 1st Turn Blitz.
Granted. But its a tactic that reduces the value of playing the game in order to determine the winner and dramatically increase the value of winning one die roll at the beginning of the game.
The rule just delays the inevitable...the 2nd player can still do a 1st turn blitz.
Only if the first player is clueless (has no stealth, no barrier and can't count squares to find a safe place).
Right. And it was true before this change.
Agreed.
Darth Sabre
08/14/2003, 13:57
The castration of aggressive play continues!
I don't mean power gamming either, just seems to me like all these things are being out into place (along with the supposed flier rule) to develop a game where a staring contest will determin who wins..
He blinks first.....
Thank God for house rules-----
CaptainOutwit
08/14/2003, 13:57
A couple of questions about first strike immunity:
1. Is it official that this rule applies to *turn* 1, not *round* 1?
2. What do you all plan to do in multi-player? Ignore this rule completely? That's my plan. Otherwise, player 1 is going to get demolished every time, especially in 4-player.
3. I'm not a chess player, but I'm familiar with the concept of tempo, and I wonder what the chess-heads on the group think about this rule. To me, barring player 1 from engaging in offense on the first turn seems like putting him at a major disadvantage. Used to be that a good offense was often the best defense, but now player 1 won't have that option, and will have to use valuable actions (and give action tokens) to spend his first turn running, putting up barriers, using smoke clouds, etc.
4. Does anybody else find the possibility of first strike to be a good thing? I'm not talking about the Ultron bomb, but simple first strikes with RCE figures and such. It make close combat more viable, reduces the effectiveness of medics, makes terrain and set-up formation more important, and hurts teams that rely on one big figure or key power (for example, an Ultron team is extremely vulnerable to first strike because it can take down key taxis, KO enhancers or take Ultron past his EE fairly easily). It's also very in-genre for comic books.
I'm not dead set against this rule, but it is one more chapter in Wizkids' history of clumsy, inelegant fixes to simple problems.
The ruling about starting on the long side of maps is a perfect example. It would take a real jackass to bring a low-mobility team to an extra-long map and then choose to set up all the way across the board from his opponent. Unfortunately, he wouldn't have a choice, because the shortboarding rule requires players to set up on opposing sides. Why no shortboarding? To prevent crushing first strikes. So basically, we're talking about an arbitrary rule made necessary by another arbitrary rule meant to stop a problem that Wizkids eventually chose to solve in a different way.
Gacy's Clown
08/14/2003, 15:24
Darius get over to the Wizkids site. They got the new rule book and PAC in the envoys only area:)
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 15:37
I saw it and I am not pleased. I only read a certain part and need to print the rest out asap so I can grumble about the rest later. I knew it was there I was just avoiding it.
Originally posted by CaptainOutwit
3. I'm not a chess player, but I'm familiar with the concept of tempo, and I wonder what the chess-heads on the group think about this rule. To me, barring player 1 from engaging in offense on the first turn seems like putting him at a major disadvantage. Used to be that a good offense was often the best defense, but now player 1 won't have that option, and will have to use valuable actions (and give action tokens) to spend his first turn running, putting up barriers, using smoke clouds, etc.
I've never seen a first turn checkmate before.
Lets see...
1. e4 ...
That won't do it.
How about...
1. d4 ...
Nope that won't work either.
Seriously:
Offense doesn't mean first turn wins, it means outplaying your opponent and forcing him to make errors that cause imbalances in his position. Then you take advantage of the imbalances and go for the win. If WK can achieve this with HC then that would be a more interesting and playable game.
Personally, I think HC is a casual game that's not meant to be a serious competitive game. I play with friends and have no problem with the rules as they stand, and I will have no problem with the new "tweaked" rules.
Gosh, it sucks to have someone be reasonable in here, TheLion. It steals all of the wind out of the arguing.
Gacy's Clown
08/14/2003, 15:55
Originally posted by darius_dax1
I saw it and I am not pleased. I only read a certain part and need to print the rest out asap so I can grumble about the rest later. I knew it was there I was just avoiding it.
I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you're talking about too...
BudPalmer
08/14/2003, 16:00
I'm an envoy and I can't seem to find the new rules. Little help please?
Darth Sabre
08/14/2003, 16:07
Originally posted by BudPalmer
I'm an envoy and I can't seem to find the new rules. Little help please?
Envoy forum on WK site......Title is Hey Envoys, you're the boss......
BudPalmer
08/14/2003, 16:10
Many thanks!
DaLuvster89
08/14/2003, 16:25
Now this truly bites. Now, all the envoys and Judges know the scoop, but I'm sure are bound to some code of silence. The rest of us are stuck waiting, speculating. The anticipation is killing me! Someone spill the beans! SPILL THEEEM!!!
:p
RanmaSolo
08/14/2003, 16:26
Grrr... Making my pending envoy status more and more annoying day by day. :p I'm missing all the exciting things! Oh well, I guess I wait some more and just stick to planning future tournament scenarios for when I _am_ a judge.
Soo, any envoy's wanna leak some info...? :grin:
Happy clixing,
Mike
BudPalmer
08/14/2003, 16:27
Uuugghhh! I knew it! I'd be talking out my arse if I said I liked it. I'm not surprised at all but it still hurts. I take back all statements where I said strategy wouldn't change.
skeevo666
08/14/2003, 16:32
Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Thank God for house rules-----
For those who might have missed it:
http://www.neomonsterisland.com/herolix/comic/007/007.html
Bluebeard
08/14/2003, 16:36
Rub it in... rub it in... ;)
StormKnight
08/14/2003, 16:36
Sorry if I'm repeating stuff here...I already read through several pages of this on MKrealms and didn't feel like re-reading all the way, but some people on the first few pages complained that this will make the 'first player passes' syndrome worse. I think the rule really means first turn not 'each player's first turn'. If you get to go first you should be able to spread out, get into cover and such stuff. If you just sit and wait, the opponent gets to blast you.
This does seem to make it a big advantage to go second though!
DamageMaster
08/14/2003, 16:51
What they've basically done is given the player who moves second an opportunity to attack their opponents (moved figs) first. How is that more fair than letting Player 1 attack first?
Expect lots of first turn passing from Player 1 - unless he plans on pushing his conartist into Perplex on turn 2.
It's a good concept but not a very well thought out idea.
I'll be very diappointedif this rule makes the cut.
The Vision
08/14/2003, 16:56
If the first player passes, the second player can smack him. The immunity is only for the first turn.
Player 1 better use that time to move for position, get to stealth and throw up a barrier.
I'd still prefer to go first.
Of course I'd like to second if the first player passes even more.
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 16:59
Based on that now instead of Firelord on every team some other barrier schmuck will be needed to even the odds. This rule does nothing other than "castrate" (thanks to Darthsabre) many teams and strategies.
raphael76
08/14/2003, 18:21
It doesn't castrate "many" teams, it just eliminates first KO teams. And I hope for the sake of the fun of the game that not everybody and their brother are using first round KO teams. Not that they are bad, but they are built around hitting the other guy before he can even do anything. If that's what's being eliminated, big deal, there are still a wealth of other options you can use. I think what a lot of these rule changes are doing are allowing for a broader spectrum of teams to see play. There are a lot of figs that don't get played simply because they don't fit the mold of some of these first strike, taxi-yo-yo turtle, what have you teams. The new flyer rules and the new first strike rules open up team design to more figures and as a result more varied game play. Sure there will be someone who comes up with a way to get around it, but at least it will be new and fresh. Personally, I'm tired of seeing the Ultron, Firelord, Doombot teams. So if this rule changes that, all the better. I've got 2 cases full of figures, and I'd love to use or lend out more of them for people to do some interesting teams.
Phil Dixon
08/14/2003, 19:25
Originally posted by warden
Perhaps I should declare my interest. Finalists for MW and MK at Gencon UK won paid trips to attend those games' world championships. The same thing happened in other countries like Germany. I was a finalist in the HeroClix equivalent at Gencon UK. This had more players than MW and MK combined but my prize was an LE5 Annihilus (a figure I already had) and cheap cup. I went to the Marvel World Championship anyway but paying my own way cost about $1000. So, that's the value of the bottom line here. Play in MechWarrior or Mage Knight tournaments and Wizkids will rank you, respect you and look after you. Play HeroClix instead and they don't.That's just my point, though. HeroClix, when compared to MW and MK, markets itself. There are far more people who would like a Wonder Woman figure than those who crave some giant robot. And therefore, WizKids don't promote it in the same way. They're in the business of selling units. They don't have to be "fair".
chi_madnes
08/14/2003, 19:54
rule change one is stupid. why would you want to win an innitiative roll now ????
darius_dax1
08/14/2003, 19:56
My point exactly..and if you are a JUdge then you will see that these rules are even w...never mind, I can't say.
I don't think it changes anything. It just means that a different person gets to strike first. Instead of Player 1 it is now Player 2. It is still a 50-50 chance either way.
Now, there is one case where this is a bad thing. If you're playing a fixed turn format, then the player that goes first is deprived of a turn where they can attack. That is a definite disadvantage. To fix that I suggest that all players' first move can't be attacks on any figures anywhere. I'd make it an 11 turn format instead of 10, too, to keep the same number of attacking turns available. Every place I play uses timed games, so number of turns is irrelevant. But, not every place uses timed games.
I think they should actually change the wording to say "You may not attack someone in their starting area when they have not had a turn yet." In a four player game, player one has a normal team. Player two has a first strike team. Player 3 is out of luck because player 2 comes over and destroys the team with Ultron/4 Psylocks and a Green Latern with a strike for 5 clicks of damage per splash. Player 4 comes over and cleans up anything left and the game is over. So if Player 2 wants to attack Player 1, fine. Let players have a chance to move before attacking them.
Darth Sabre
08/14/2003, 20:18
Originally posted by darius_dax1
My point exactly..and if you are a JUdge then you will see that these rules are even w...never mind, I can't say.
LOL! I concurr with you,wholeheartedly!
Darth Sabre
08/14/2003, 20:25
Originally posted by skeevo666
For those who might have missed it:
http://www.neomonsterisland.com/herolix/comic/007/007.html
That was sweet...........
TheLion: Alas, no...it takes at least 2 turns to win in chess :-)
3. I'm not a chess player, but I'm familiar with the concept of tempo, and I wonder what the chess-heads on the group think about this rule. To me, barring player 1 from engaging in offense on the first turn seems like putting him at a major disadvantage. Used to be that a good offense was often the best defense, but now player 1 won't have that option, and will have to use valuable actions (and give action tokens) to spend his first turn running, putting up barriers, using smoke clouds, etc.
eh, not really. Assuming the new rule means only player 1's turn and not the whole first round (and I'd really like an official ruling on that) then either player 1 can pass (in which case he's in EXACTLY the same position player 2 would have been in before the change, except he picked the map instead of the side and set up first) or he can do something useful like giving a con artist a counter. I'd say the option to put up barriers, etc, cancels out the other things, so he's about as well off as player 2 would have been before.
Originally posted by Spock
TheLion: Alas, no...it takes at least 2 turns to win in chess :-)
Hmm...
1. e4 e5
No
1. e4 c5
No
1. d4 d5
No
1. d4 Nf6
No
1. c4 c5
No
1. Nf3 d5
No
Oh, I believe you mean the Fool's mate:
1. f3 e5
2. g4 Qh4#
But that's two moves, but two moves for each player. I don't think that applies to a first strike comparison.
Oh heck, to complete the chess lesson, here's the Scholar's mate:
1.e4 e5
2.Bc4 Bc5
3.Qh5 Nf6
4.Qxf7#
Doesn't apply either. :)
daredevil11
08/15/2003, 02:57
"First turn immunity. You may not attack or damage any opposing figure that is currently in a opposing player’s initial deployment zone (starting area) on the first turn of play. Figures moved or set up outside of this deployment area (starting area) are subject to regular targeting rules."
Looks to me like it covers the whole first turn, both players - based on what the second sentence says. You can't be outside of the starting area if you have gone yet, so that line has to refer to the player going first.
If the first player to move moves out of his starting area or carries someone outside of it, those characters are fairgame.
I've played with this as a house rule, its great - I think this is a really good thing. On a side note, it allows you play shorter homemade maps as well, you get through that first turn and then the fur flies.
I read some people complaining that it ends aggressive play and such, but I don't see it and havn't experienced it in the games I've played using it. You have to ask yourself whether you feel more satisfied beating an opponent who is set up and deployed for maximum effect or if you want to win because you won a simple inititiative roll?
If you go first, you'll still get first shot, provided you stay in you don't move out of your starting zone, you just won't be catching someone flatfooted. It will increase the difficulty, and variety in play, but that's good. Who wants to win based on what amounts to a coin flip?
daredevil11
08/15/2003, 03:13
Originally posted by daredevil11
Looks to me like it covers the whole first turn, both players - based on what the second sentence says. You can't be outside of the starting area if you havN'T gone yet, so that line has to refer to the player going first.
Sorry, missed the window to edit - have should read "if you havn't -
BudPalmer
08/15/2003, 13:09
I wonder when Darius will finally snap. I feel your pain Darius and I believe I'm upset about the same thing you are. Do you get the feeling we a traveling back in time to the days of "civilized combat"? Lets form one line of troops here and an other over there. Now let's take turns firing on each other. But perhaps I've said to much... (It is kinda fun torturing the poeple who aren't in the know.)
darius_dax1
08/15/2003, 13:10
That is exactly what I was thinking yesterday! Good call Bud!
BudPalmer
08/15/2003, 13:27
Stealth will be the key in new games I guess. Which makes the Superman TA the key-maker. At least I can play the old-school rules with friends.
Originally posted by BudPalmer
Stealth will be the key in new games I guess. Which makes the Superman TA the key-maker. At least I can play the old-school rules with friends.
The end is near! Oh, the humanity!
Heh.
HC is just a casual game, so playing with friends is the best way to play anyway. I've been playing with friends since IC and we have never had any problems.
I've actually played by the new rules (tourney and IndyClix both), and they make the game far more strategic than it ever was before. It's much, much more chess-like ... which means it'll require people to think.
If you don't like thinking, then ... well, there're other games out there that I'm sure you could enjoy (umm, CandyLand and Sorry! come to mind). If you enjoy strategic, tactical games then you won't be disappointed with the new rules.
Oh, and if you think Stealth is going to rule, just wait until you see ... oh wait, can't tell ya that. But trust me, you aren't going to need the Superman Team Ability. :)
BudPalmer
08/15/2003, 14:03
You can't deny that the new rules WILL slow the game down. I'm not thrilled by the rule changes but I will adapt. Truthfully, this is how my friends and I played when we first started because things weren't really spelled out well and we only had Mage Knight to go from. I just got used to the way its played now and thought the current rules were OK because it sped the game up.
daredevil11
08/17/2003, 12:05
Just some thoughts,
First, I'm not convinced the first move strike is such a great strategy to begin with and sometimes it ends up becoming a sucker's play. The player comes across and makes his attack, successful or not, they often loose their attacker and or their taxi the next turn. If they are unsuccessful in doing what they want, they loose, if they happen to take out that key piece they're hunting, they win.
Second, basicly it forces people to set their teams up based on it - both attacker and defender. By that, I mean both the build and the initial space selection. This makes for an awkward game where the strategy of the build is manipulated by concerns over launching or defending against a first turn strike. I think it often ends up basicly costing each player a turn to move and a turn to rest in order to transition between 1st turn strategy and rest of game strategy.
Lastly, I dislike first turn attacks because they are usually the most effective against new players, and what could be more discouraging than basicly losing without even moving? That's not really going to encourage anyone to pick up the game. If "cheesy" was defined in the dictionary, I think knocking out the newby before he moves would most likely be part of the definition.
To sum up my thoughts, you end up with something of a let down for a game you've geared up to play as the outcome of the game, win or lose, is generally decided on the first move; which amounts to a coin flip in my book. And I think that holds true whether or not the first strike is successful or a disaster for the attacker - either way you end up with a mucked up game and a decision made on the first turn.
So I for one, do not mourn its passing.
daredevil11
08/17/2003, 12:07
Title to the above should have read - first turn strikes, not mourning their passing LOL - need more coffee this morning :knockedou
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