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I honestly believe that using actions mid action is people reading way too much into the phrase 'at any time'. I think that is something that will be cleared up in the FAQ.
themark37
08/27/2003, 23:45
Originally posted by Dexceus
I honestly believe that using actions mid action is people reading way too much into the phrase 'at any time'. I think that is something that will be cleared up in the FAQ.
Sorry man, but its just not going to happen. Like it was said before this is how they (Jon L, B_M & DrG) wanted it and they aren't going to change it.
SonofVader
08/27/2003, 23:52
Dexceus - "You know, at first I was confused why they did both the flyers can't carry flyers rule and the no action after being carried rule until I realized something.
If you do only the no action after being carried rule, then you can have the following scenrio:
GL carries his merry men, inculding a Legionaire up to the front. The next turn all the merry men except GL (unless you want to push him) and the Legionaire attack. Then the Legionaire carries the Merry Men and GL back. With both rules, this can't happen.
Another form of this. Thor carries WASP while doing a running shot. The next turn, Wasp carries Thor back to the medic.
Basicly, without using both rules, you can still do the flier yo-yo, but with just a pause in-between."
In this situation, the problem doesn't lie with the AAT (pre-Indy Clix taxing) rule, but with the Fliers carry Fliers rule. If they just used the Fliers Can't Carry Other Fliers, then it actually negates both of these situations. You don't need both of the rules, just one. I still don't understand the NAAT logic, since I don't see it solving any problems now except Bullseye/Wasp, which wasn't even that much of a hassle to begin with.
AleksandarN
08/27/2003, 23:54
Is it true that Hyperspeed attack you no long reduce the damage to 1 after each attack?
If that is true my Superman just got more powerful
GianSingir
08/27/2003, 23:59
Originally posted by Dexceus
And for those who are saying that they plan on quiting because of the new rules, I am in the market to buy most DC uniques. And no, I am not worried about the damage to the comunity of people quiting. After putting to these rules to the GF test, it is clear that these rules are easier to follow for new players and we will probably see more new players then those who decide to take thier ball home with them.
Man, I am sooo sick of hearing phrases like this... This is a product. If some people don't like the way it's being handled, there is nothing at all wrong with it. This isn't the same as someone getting their feelings hurt at the play ground, this is something most of us spend alot of time and money on. On the other side of the coin, people that make the, "Taking their ball home..." statement, could be considered, "Cattle." People that follow everything, "Just because." I'm not flaming you, please don't take it that way. It's just the last time I'm gonna read a quote like that, and not say anything.
So, instead of accussing people of being childish, hows about saying, "Thank you," for their help in supporting the game you're still going to play?
Just my .02, nothing personal Dexceus...
By having no actions after being carried, you take care of the massive first strike where you carry up your big gun and attack all in the same round. This is something that came to dominate the game to the point that you were at a SEVERE disadvantage if you didn't build your team around that concept. Instead of being something to speed up game play, as the desingers said it was intended, it turned into a dominating strategy.
Also from a 'real world' (yeah, I know, how much does real world mean in a game based off of comic books? But work with me here, you have to have some basis to work off of) point of view, it makes no sense that a character can be carried and then attacked. A turn represents X amount of time. In that amount of time you can either attack or move Y distance (with the exception of running shot and charge, in which you are supposed to be attacking while moving). This means that Rookie Booster Gold (Just happened to have that click sitting here) has enough time to fly 10 squares. In that same amount of time, Experieced Doomsday can make 1 attack that is worth anything. With the old rules though, if Booster Gold carries Doomsday, there is time enough due to the time warping capabilities of taxing that there is enough time for Doomsday to be moved ten squares and then attack., because the two actions are happening one after the other.
Make sense to everyone? Or do I need to try and figure out another way to explain it?
As to the 'taking the ball home' comment. You are presuming that I think it is childish.
If I don't like how some people play a game, I just don't play with them. If I don't like the rules to a game, I don't play it. This is exactly 'taking the ball home' and I do it if I am not happy.
What I don't do is make posts or statements making a big deal about it. I may make a simple statment that I don't like it, but I am not going to make a big deal about it.
The truth of the matter that is no matter what Whiz Kids did, they were going to make some people upset. It is really a no win situation for them. They have to base thier decisions on what they think will be good for thier game in the long run.
If some people do not like that, then they can 'take thier ball home' or they can just play like they like to among thier friends.
The choice is thiers and neither is childish. Now making a post to make a big statement about it is childish. There is another thread were they are talking about making posts about them leaving the forums and how the only reason people make them is to stoke thier own ego. This is just the same thing.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 00:30
Originally posted by Dexceus
The truth of the matter that is no matter what Whiz Kids did, they were going to make some people upset. It is really a no win situation for them. They have to base thier decisions on what they think will be good for thier game in the long run.
Fixing a couple powers is ok, but to change them AND change some of the major mechanics of the game is ludicrous!
Who did their playtesting? Corky, Brak, Timmy, and Patrick from Spongebob?
We've playtested these rules quite a bit over the past few weeks and while some of the new powers are ok, NAAT totally blows! These games take forever and the fun factor flew out the window.................................
AleksandarN
08/28/2003, 00:31
Originally posted by AleksandarN
Is it true that Hyper Sonic Speed attack you no long reduce the damage to 1 after each attack?
If that is true my Superman just got more powerful
Anyone ?
There are some characters who are at a disadvantage right now, unless something is changed in a FAQ. Characters that have multiple targets, but start at 1 damage. These characters, unless assited by other characters, are being charged for multiple targets, but cannot damage multiple targets.
I'm not really sure what would be a good way to address this.
There are 18 figures that fall under this, BTW.
In regards to HSS. It no longer has the wording that the damage is reduced to 1 before the HSS attack, but the net effect is the same.
The amount of damage applied is 1 for every succesful attack. The reason for the change in wording is to keep someone from perplexing the damage up, making them do more then 1 damage per succesful hit.
This is also something in favor of the idea that you CAN use perplex in the middle of an action, otherwise why change the wording on the HSS attack? It is going to be interesting to see how this actually plays out in a game.
Gacy,
I can sort of see your point. Though in my experience, the fun of moving a character up and turning the enemy into a grease stain in one turn is all one sided and gets old really, really fast.
If game speed is something your worried about, try a varient house rule along the lines of speed chess. Limit the amount of time a person has to make all the moves in his turn. This will speed things up and make things more of a challenge because you have to think ahead more.
I haven't had the time to read through the rule yet so i'll reserve judgement till then, but I thought the purpose of these rule changes were to acknowledge and answer the problems , complaints, and suggestions of us players, and to otherwise simplify the game. I do like the power action as some people thaught things like Avengers/Brotherhood could support for free (it's considered a "move action" *oi!*). It looks pretty sweet from what i've read, but i'm really in it for the characters.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 01:15
Originally posted by Dexceus
Gacy,
I can sort of see your point. Though in my experience, the fun of moving a character up and turning the enemy into a grease stain in one turn is all one sided and gets old really, really fast.
If game speed is something your worried about, try a varient house rule along the lines of speed chess. Limit the amount of time a person has to make all the moves in his turn. This will speed things up and make things more of a challenge because you have to think ahead more.
It has NOTHING to do with killing someone on the first turn. I've never played that way and never will. They made other rules to prevent that, so NAAT isn't necessary.
They could've simply made it that if a flyer is taxied (cause we all know Firecrud and GL are the main reasons for this) that they couldn't have a move action.
Yes, there's ways around it, but it would restrict a lot of the first turn strategies and prevent the yo-yo tactics others try.
I'm a firm believer that Wizkids is listening to all the whiners who kept getting their butt kicked by Firelord instead of forming new strategies. And it's strange that many of those whiners all of a sudden LOVE the new rules.....
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 01:17
Originally posted by Litz
I haven't had the time to read through the rule yet so i'll reserve judgement till then, but I thought the purpose of these rule changes were to acknowledge and answer the problems , complaints, and suggestions of us players, and to otherwise simplify the game.
You're exactly right and they listened to all the wankers who couldn't take getting beat all the time. Instead of making better teams, they just posted and cried for everything to change...
I wasn't talking about on the first turn. I was talking about the general strategy of moving X figure up and having them turn Y figure into a grease stain without and chance of retribution. To me, that fun is one sided and gets boring really, really fast.
As for whiners loving the new rules, I never whined about it, but I think they are good rules.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. Adapt to the new rules and overcome them instead of whining about them.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 01:27
Originally posted by hair10
Being able to roll the dice and then decide if you are going to use one of these "free actions" is more broken than anything else I have seen! I don't see how you can say that it isn't more broken. It's as broke as broke could be.
My contention here is that it was already broken to begin with.....
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 01:29
It's not just me, we're talking droves of players that aren't happy about the changes.
We wouldn't have to "adapt and overcome" if the whiners just learned to actually play the game and build better teams, rather than posting and begging Wizkids to do something to the game to help the poor babies have a chance.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 01:33
Originally posted by Dexceus
As for whiners loving the new rules, I never whined about it, but I think they are good rules.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. Adapt to the new rules and overcome them instead of whining about them.
Can we please discuss our differences without resorting to this level of childness?
Not agreeing with the rule changes does not make someone a whiner. The adapt and get over it attitude is tiring.
That's the equivalent of: Thanks! All you whiers who lost of Firelord teams who could not adapt and overcome the cheesey tactics whined your way to the mess at hand!
People who don't like the rule changes have as much a stake in this as those of you who support them....
falcarrion
08/28/2003, 01:42
After reading the turns and action in the rules it states: you must resolve one action before choosing the next action.
so with that in mind you do a pulse wave damage 1.
you cant perpelx in the middle of a action. If you perpelx damage after the action there is nothing to perplex as the damage has already been done. If you perplex the damage up to two before you do the pulse wave it is reduced to 1.
Okay, so the people who didn't like the old rules were whiners, but the people who don't like the new rules aren't whiners? Isn't that a double standard?
I agree that people who don't like things have a right to not like things. All I am doing is applying the same logic that those people who are calling those who didn't like the old rules whiners.
And as for a lot of people liking the old rules, I know a lot of people like the new rules.
And why is that the people who didn't like the old rules should 'adapt and overcome', but the people who don't like the new rules shouldn't do the same?
Kaitouace
08/28/2003, 01:46
I doubt that the people on this messageboard counts as "droves" of players who don't like the game. Actually I'm seeing a lot more positive than negative here. Just that the negatives are a lot louder than the positives.
And I still say there's no way the mid-action stuff with the Perplex, Outwit, etc. is going to fly. If ANYTHING is going to be errata'd in the upcoming FAQ it's that. At least everything will have to be declared before the dice roll.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 01:50
kaitouace> We (the judges) were told earlier today, that there will be no changes to this, as it was the intent of those powers- for them to work this way....
Take that for what it's worth.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 01:59
Fine then...
Play Monopoly without properties. Adapt to that.
Play Sorry without cards. Adapt to that.
Play Risk without dice. Adapt to that.
Play Clue without Rooms. Adapt to that.
Play football without an offensive line. Adapt to that.
Play golf without clubs. Adapt to that.
Play...blah blah blah......*head explodes*
GroovyBoy
08/28/2003, 02:02
Originally posted by algrim
Overall, I like these new rules. A few things to remember;
1) Mind-Control - With the new rules you can MC someone who is pushed. That in and of itself makes the power more useful. And as far as the target not receiving a token, that's fine by me - the power is to control someone, not Incapacitate them. If You're going to take damage from a high-pointed fig for MCing them, just make sure you use good timing and do it when it hurts them the most.
Actually, this part brings me down. One of my favorite tactics is to MC an opponent's big guy when he already has a token. That way, he pounds on his own team, takes a click for pushing, and then I get one free turn to haul off on him...
Actually, I have played Risk without dice. It was an interesting little experiment.
The turth of the matter is that the game hasn't changed THAT much.
With the old rules, it was a no brainer. Fly your big gun up and smash. No thinking involved. Now you have to think it out.
If any one game depends so much on one startegy that without it the game is completly runied, something has to be changed.
GroovyBoy
08/28/2003, 02:08
Originally posted by algrim
It still surprises me that no one has mentioned the beautiful new elevated rule. Grounded characters can now ignore hindering terrain and other grounded characters when shooting at an elevated target... which means....
If you can shoot me (Bullseye), I can shoot you back!
I love that one.
Clown and I has been commiserating about that one. We feel being elevated should have some advantage. Well, I suppose being safe from non-flyers and L/Cers is an advantage, but maybe a +1 attack would be nice (why do they always go for high ground in the military?) Okay, I'm being way too anal now and will go suck on my thumb...
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 02:09
Originally posted by Dexceus
The turth of the matter is that the game hasn't changed THAT much.
With the old rules, it was a no brainer. Fly your big gun up and smash. No thinking involved. Now you have to think it out.
LOL! Are you kidding. An entire game mechanic has been changed.
Maybe that's how you played with the old rules, but the people I play with had more creative strategies than that no-brainer nonsense.
Originally posted by Dexceus
Actually, I have played Risk without dice. It was an interesting little experiment.
What a jack-###.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 02:11
Originally posted by GroovyBoy
Clown and I has been commiserating about that one. We feel being elevated should have some advantage. Well, I suppose being safe from non-flyers and L/Cers is an advantage, but maybe a +1 attack would be nice (why do they always go for high ground in the military?) Okay, I'm being way too anal now and will go suck on my thumb...
Why do you think sniper's usually take the rooftops....
Yeah, removing the advantage of the high ground doesn't seem to make much sense.
Changing a game mechanic does not neccesarly change a game to the extremes that you are saying that it does.
Well, that no brainer strategy is the only thing that is really eliminated, so what is the big deal then?
So why am I a jack-### because I have played Risk without dice?
falcarrion
08/28/2003, 02:22
With the rule on flying hasn't change on becoming adjacent to an opsing figure. under break away it clearly states :
if you character enters squares adjacent to any new opposing characters,however, it must end its move.
under hovering it say: a hovering character is floating near the ground and intereacts with nonflying characters as if it were grounded.
A hovering character may ignore the effects of opposing characters and hindering terrain on movment.
Basicly if you start off your turn next to a oppsing figure and made your break away you can hover over the oppossing figure ignoring the figure where a non flyer would have to go around it unless it has leap and climb. hovering basicly becomes leap/climb in regards to movement except for you still need to make a breakaway role.
GroovyBoy
08/28/2003, 02:33
Originally posted by Darth Sabre
There is no open for interpretation. this has already been answered by Brother_Magneto-and the answer is YES, you can use those powers in mid action.
So Brother Magneto calls all the shots now? Did Gandalf get deposed? I thought the rules came out early so that all judges could weigh in on the FAQ...
GroovyBoy
08/28/2003, 02:50
Originally posted by Darth Sabre
kaitouace> We (the judges) were told earlier today, that there will be no changes to this, as it was the intent of those powers- for them to work this way....
Take that for what it's worth.
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong: With Perplex, you could make an attack roll, wait to see if you hit, and if you did, then decide to Perplex (or Enhance) the damage? Would that make both powers underpriced on current figures? Will everybody have hookers and Psylocke (in other words, hookers) on their team?
Originally posted by GroovyBoy
So Brother Magneto calls all the shots now? Did Gandalf get deposed? I thought the rules came out early so that all judges could weigh in on the FAQ... Brother Magneto is the Judge Coordinator - a new role. He is a Wizkids employee and works in the same office as the designers (Jon L and Jeff Grubb). DrGandalf is a volunteer who lives and works elsewhere and so, in practise, is out of the loop. Brother Magneto is doing the right thing by getting fast answers back to us but the way that the Arbitrator role is being sidelined should be addressed.
Personally, when something this big comes down, I think that the designer responsible should be online taking the heat rather than being shielded by middle-men. I believe that it's this person that will be writing the new FAQ and that won't be done right if there are too many cooks.
Andrew
Captain K.
08/28/2003, 05:02
Thumbs up on the new rules. A couple of little things that need to be ironed out, but an improvement overall.
And what's wrong with Risk without dice? Heck, we've already adapted Creepy Freaks to play without dice on CFRealms. :grin:
PsychoDBoy
08/28/2003, 05:54
Okay, I reask because 7 pages later it hasnt been touched yet and I'm really wonderin about this....
Question about the 2000ad TA: If you target someone with a wildcard team ability such as paranormal research, spidey, n such, can you attack them even if they're using a different TA, and vice versa, if target say danger girl, and a wildcard is declared dangergirl, would i get the +1 since theyre technically a danger girl, or does it go for the printed ta the entire time?
Darkskaven
08/28/2003, 06:27
The mid-action (anytime) rule used with Perplex seems quite powerful to me (I don't say borken but I think so) :
Take two shooters and eight con artists (cheap perplexers that is).
On my turn I declare that my first shooter do a ranged attack on a target (the big guy of my opponent). I roll the dices : I hit. Then I add 8 damages to this attack (the best character of my opponent just died painfully; I can wait to see if he rolls succesfull or not his Impervious or SS and eventually choose to add the damages after the result of this defensive power!).
If I'm not lucky and I miss, said by three. I declare that 3 con artists perplex my AV, and after I declare that I boost by 5 points the damages.
If I'm very very unlucky I roll a double one on the attack. That's not very important to me because I don't have used any of my perplexers. So now I declare a ranged attack on the same target with my second shooter and do the same thing.
To resume : perplex is (to me) the best power by far (boost all combat values except number of shoots [no interest to boost the number of ranged attacks in the most cases with the new rules for dividing the damage among the targets], with a free use, with a low cost [not like Incapacitate], with a 10 squares range [a good range], and with the assurance to ever be used to full effect in any circumstances [except if you're so unlucky as to roll only double ones on every dices roll, but in this case you perhaps should try poker !]).
Enhancement seems good but too limited in comparison : need to be adjacent, higher point cost, boost only another character, only for ranged attacks, and can only boost the damages (not the movement, defense, damage, range and attack like Perplex, and never decrease one of these).
I think that to let Perplex (and the likes) be used at any time, and thus after the dices are rolled is not a good idea for game balance. It makes diseapear one important (and one that I appreciate very much) aspect of the game : the risks. If you are always assured to be succesfull, the game lost a great part of interest : I don't play Heroclix to play Chess or worst, a GW's one (with mega-invincible combinations of magical items to bring nearly systematic victories).
I know that in my examples above it's quite hard to obtain a so perfect deployement with the required lines of sight, but these are just examples to show what someone's can do using at full advantage the new rules for the free action powers.
Originally posted by Dexceus
With the old rules, it was a no brainer. Fly your big gun up and smash. No thinking involved. Now you have to think it out.
And where is the thinking at now? With NAAT, they just nuetured any brusiers. After all, who's going to taxi a fig out and leave him there as a big target for a turn while he waits to finally do something? Now all teams will revolve around Running Shot, HSS, Charge (to a lesser extent), and TK. There's no thinking with the new "strategy". How does that make things better?
And Dexceus.... you were mentioned before about "realism" and "comic continuity". How often have you seen someone like Rogue taxi Colussus into the fray only so that Colussus could "armour up" as he was dropped into the middle of the fight?!!? That's exactly what the taxi and attack was. NAAT just got rid of that.
The elevation LOF rule change is a nice one. It was ridiculous that I had a grounded fig 6 squares away from a building edge but a grounded fig next to the building blocked my LOF to the roof.
I'm sure herocomplex on a similar thread somewhere that you can't add on Perplex after you've done a dice roll. So if you miss by 3 like in your example you can't add extras to make it hit. You could wait to see whether you hit and then add 8 to damage after you've hit. You'd also have to add the damage before any rolls for super senses/impervious i think because the attack is completed once your opponent makes those rolls. Also Perplex adds to damage value not damage dealt, there is a difference under the new rules. Super senses and impervious are used to see how much damage is dealt. This is where Enhancement is better. Enhancement adds to Damage Dealt. Example. I have Veteran Ultron with Veteran Psylocke adjacent. I shoot three seperate targets. I allocate 2 damage to one target, 1 to another and 0 to a third. These numbers are damage dealt. Enhancement would add to each one as these numbers are the damage dealt to each target so the final damage dealt would be 3 to the first, 2 to the second and 1 to the third. A total of 6 damage dealt. Perplex would increase the damage value that could be divided up by 1. Perplex specifically says it adds to combat values, which is damage value not damage dealt. It's all in the wording. They're two similar but actually different things. So I would have 4 damage to divide between the 3 targets. On the other hand under the energy explosion power it says damage value is reduced to 1 for this power, which is the amount of damage dealt to each figure hit, both by the initial blast and the splash over. It says each figure hit takes this damage. Here Perplex is just as useful as Enhancement. You could perplex Ultrons' damage up to 9 with all those con artists and blow someones whole team away as you coulkd shoot three seperate targets and each of those figures and anyone adjacent to them will take 9 clix of damage. You could even call outwit with a Black Panther after you hit and cancel out someones defensive powers. From the way I've heard it explained by some of the judges this tactic would also work with Pulse Wave providing all your perplexers were out of range of the Pulse Waver and within line of sight of them.
Darkskaven
08/28/2003, 08:45
Thank you Draggor for the reply.
But as Impervious works to avoid damages dealt, SS in the other hand avoid an attack that hit the character. And thus I think that you can choose to boost the damages with Perplex after the roll of SS : this one is rolled during the ranged combat attack, after it hits but before the damages are dealt.
For the use of Perplex to boost AV after the dices have been rolled : I have read the post of HeroComplex about that one but I can't find anywhere in the rulebook or the PAC a sentence saying this (if someone can give me the page to find it I will be pleased).
And what the rulebook says is that a free action can be done at any time except when specified in the power (for Perplex only during your turn and once per turn). So Perplex can be used during any part of an action, even after the dices have been rolled; or only at the beginning of the action (like in the old rules). It doesn't make sense to be able to interrupt an action (a mid-action interruption) at any point, except for one kind of boost (AV in this case) at a very particular moment (just after the dices were rolled).
What I want to say is that the rules needn't to be more confused with too much exceptions : if you could do something, you can do it; if not you can't; but no way it's easy for everyone if there's lot of little exceptions to the rules (as use of Perplex to boost AV after the dices have been rolled). It's at anytime or at a specific one , but the two melted tends to bring more confusion than needed.
Another thing that messed me up is the new rules for multi-ranged attacks. It brings flaws (and usefulness) for the characters with multiple arrows but with a damage value of 0 or 1. And how does the new system works with Incapacitate or EE ? Can you still make one incapacitate (or EE) ranged attack and two standards ranged attacks? And if so, how does it works ? (I don't even mention if you add enhancement, Shield TA or Perplex in this maze).
With the old rules the things weren't simple (specifically for the EE thing and enhancement or others identicals powers), but with these new ones we will need the explanations for the same thing (use of multi-EE and enhancement) + how they applied with the new system for multi-attacks (only in the case that we still can mix EE and standard ranged attacks, of course). I really don't know why they changed the multi-ranged attacks rules (apart to bring more chaos on the Heroclix community ! ;) ).
Don't make me say what I don't : I'm pleased by the majority of the rules modifications, but I think that a rewrite of nearly all the rules was'nt useful and is quite confusing (after a so long time playing Clix, it'll not be easy to follow the new rules without getting lost by our tenacious old habits).
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
It's not just me, we're talking droves of players that aren't happy about the changes.
We wouldn't have to "adapt and overcome" if the whiners just learned to actually play the game and build better teams, rather than posting and begging Wizkids to do something to the game to help the poor babies have a chance.
Waitasecond, you're whining about having to 'adapt and overcome' to the new strategies that the new rules will cause.
You're mad that the rules were changed because -- in your view, and not in reality -- someone else couldn't 'adapt and overcome' to strategies provided in the old rules?
Hello, Mr. Kettle. You're black. :rolleyes:
ItsNotMe
08/28/2003, 11:41
Play Risk without dice. Adapt to that.It's called Diplomacy and it's usually considdered to be a much better game than Risk. :)
Ignatz_Mouse
08/28/2003, 12:09
The whining disturbs me. I know that there will be new cheese coming, and there's more creativity going on now than there will be a month after the rules come out. And I know that the game will be slower. But why is anybody so wedded to the current style of play in the first place? What's wrong with change? As far as I can tell, we get more playable figures and powers out of the change, and that's good. I was already bored with the 4-5 basic strategies used in tournaments, so getting a new 4-5 at least will be good. And we'll at last be whining about somebody other than Firelord, whoever the new king of cheese ends up being.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 13:01
Originally posted by GroovyBoy
So Brother Magneto calls all the shots now? Did Gandalf get deposed? I thought the rules came out early so that all judges could weigh in on the FAQ...
Actually, this came from Jon L and Dr. Gandalf through Bro_Mag.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 13:09
Originally posted by GroovyBoy
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong: With Perplex, you could make an attack roll, wait to see if you hit, and if you did, then decide to Perplex (or Enhance) the damage? Would that make both powers underpriced on current figures? Will everybody have hookers and Psylocke (in other words, hookers) on their team?
Yes probably the same unimaginative cheeseheads (no disrespect to Packer fans or Green Bay residents) who caused this mess in the first place.
thecriminal415
08/28/2003, 13:33
Can somebody PLZ post the new major changes in the rules? cuz my computer always freezes whenever i try to dl anything...even attachments in email. ALl i neeed are the major changes so I can still play the game correctly.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 13:52
Originally posted by hair10
And where is the thinking at now? With NAAT, they just nuetured any brusiers. After all, who's going to taxi a fig out and leave him there as a big target for a turn while he waits to finally do something? Now all teams will revolve around Running Shot, HSS, Charge (to a lesser extent), and TK. There's no thinking with the new "strategy". How does that make things better?
And Dexceus.... you were mentioned before about "realism" and "comic continuity". How often have you seen someone like Rogue taxi Colussus into the fray only so that Colussus could "armour up" as he was dropped into the middle of the fight?!!? That's exactly what the taxi and attack was. NAAT just got rid of that.
The elevation LOF rule change is a nice one. It was ridiculous that I had a grounded fig 6 squares away from a building edge but a grounded fig next to the building blocked my LOF to the roof.
Thank god, someone else understands all this....
Wollstonecraft
08/28/2003, 13:56
Does anyone have a plain and simple text version of the new PAC and Rulebook?
It doesn't neutralize bruisers, it just makes you think how you are going to use them. You actualy have to support them. Put barriers up, position other figures in front of them, sacrifice one figure to get another in position. You know, real stratigic thought, instead of just dropping off a bruiser and having them go smash.
And Rogue can still bring in Collusus like that. You just have to be smarter.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 13:59
Originally posted by JacinB
Waitasecond, you're whining about having to 'adapt and overcome' to the new strategies that the new rules will cause.
You're mad that the rules were changed because -- in your view, and not in reality -- someone else couldn't 'adapt and overcome' to strategies provided in the old rules?
Hello, Mr. Kettle. You're black. :rolleyes:
NAAT was not necessary at all. They've changed this game into Mage Knight and Mech Warrior...without measuring tape. Making all these games practically the same is just idiotic. Who gives a rat's ### if the game could possibly be ranked now?
I've talked with quite a few people that "love" the new rules and they either:
1) Haven't played more than 5 games in their life.
2) Kept getting beat by cheese.
These are the same people that have cried until they got their way and now everyone has to suck it up and deal with the way they changed everything to suit those people.
If you've been following me, I like most of the changes, but NAAT is the big boner that didn't need to be there.
Unlike some people are complaining without playtesting the rules, I have, and I can say the games aren't all that fast paced and exciting, which is what it should be.
Ignatz_Mouse
08/28/2003, 14:00
Anybody saying there isn't any strategy in the new rules has no imagination.
I have already played teams that did not revolve around those powers. Having one or two of them is nice, and probably essential for a large-point game-- but hardly a dictated strategy.
I did very well basing a whole team on Stealth with hearty amounts of Perplex. One HSS fig, no TK, charge, or RS. How did I win? By tying up my opponents pieces, limiting his options, forcing him to sacrifice one of his pieces for one of mine, etc.
This fixation on trying ot make the game play like it used to by substituting RS, HSS, Charge and TK is going to fail after just a few games.
themark37
08/28/2003, 14:02
A ruling just came down from Dr Gandalf on Perplexing mid-action.
In tournament play, Outwit and Perplex may not be used in the middle of an action.
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
Unlike some people are complaining without playtesting the rules, I have, and I can say the games aren't all that fast paced and exciting, which is what it should be.
So quit. See ya.
Kaitouace
08/28/2003, 14:04
Okay. I love most of the rules and don't mind most of the others. But the mid-action thing is TOTALLY retarded. How fair is that where you can roll first, see if you hit and THEN add damage with Perplex? That's just messed up. Although I would assume that you WOULDN'T be able to roll, miss, and THEN proclaim Perplex to up your AV to hit as that would be TOTALLY interrupting that action. As long as you can't do THAT it shouldn't be as bad as I was thinking. Because if you use Perplex beforehand for your AV you're done anyway........now that I think about it, if that IS the way it's done, it's not TOO much different than it was before. You just get that bonus of adding damage after you know if it hits or not. If you use Perplex to lower defense, increase range, or raise AV, it wouldn't be any different than before.
Hmmm.........
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 14:12
Originally posted by Kaitouace
Okay. I love most of the rules and don't mind most of the others. But the mid-action thing is TOTALLY retarded. How fair is that where you can roll first, see if you hit and THEN add damage with Perplex? That's just messed up. Although I would assume that you WOULDN'T be able to roll, miss, and THEN proclaim Perplex to up your AV to hit as that would be TOTALLY interrupting that action. As long as you can't do THAT it shouldn't be as bad as I was thinking. Because if you use Perplex beforehand for your AV you're done anyway........now that I think about it, if that IS the way it's done, it's not TOO much different than it was before. You just get that bonus of adding damage after you know if it hits or not. If you use Perplex to lower defense, increase range, or raise AV, it wouldn't be any different than before.
Hmmm.........
Read themark37's post about Dr. Gandalf's ruling.....
themark>you beat me to it........:p
Ignatz_Mouse
08/28/2003, 14:13
Originally posted by themark37
A ruling just came down from Dr Gandalf on Perplexing mid-action.
I wish that had been less of a blanket rule. I like being able to Outwit mid-run with HSS characters. Flash's outwit is less useful now.
themark37
08/28/2003, 14:15
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
I wish that had been less of a blanket rule. I like being able to Outwit mid-run with HSS characters. Flash's outwit is less useful now.
But it no less useful then it was before, you just have to have the right stragegy to get it to work, as you always did.
Morskittar
08/28/2003, 14:24
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
Unlike some people are complaining without playtesting the rules, I have, and I can say the games aren't all that fast paced and exciting, which is what it should be.
I've playtested the NAAT as a house rule for two months now, and found that it makes the game faster paced, and more exciting.
Perhaps our different experiences are colored by a predisposition to see this rule in either a positive or negative light?
Gacy's Clown -
I have to repesctfully disagree with you. AT first, I was very uncertain about NAAT. It was only after watching the top players in my area advocate it and use it in their own unsupported tournaments (they decided on this rule around last Christmas - ie, not influenced by the new rules) did I start to come around.
I have a few players who have a 90% + win ratio... these are the guys telling me the pacing is much better and it seems to flow well. They played a huge JLA vs Avengers fight while I ran my tournament seperately of them on Wednesday night (testing the new rules) and they had a blast. I've playtested it a bit and had fun with it as well (and even though I lost to your team at GenCon, I did still win 2 of the 5 I entered).
I have never whined about any rulings on this forum. I did join in on the conversation a few months back about flyers carrying flyers, but I've never openly complained about the rules.
Myself and most of my players don't fit into your prescribed categories.
The fact is that some people like the new rules and some don't. I like the fact the pacing has been re-established. I think there are still WORLDS of difference between MageKnight (which I don't play but my roommate does) and HeroClix. I also believe it has less to do with people's whining and more to do with the designers recalibrating how they initially envisioned the game (talked about NAAT here).
I'm not saying anything to downplay your concerns, you have full right to say what you feel... I just wanted to let you know not everyone who feels different than you falls into those categories...
This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."
Dead on. on Jay10 HSS doesn't say sqaut about CC ACTION or Ranged Action it says attack period. NOT ATTACK ACTION.
Heads up folks you are pushing rules that don't exist and quoting dogma that is unwritten.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 14:33
algrim,
I respect your comments, because you actually add some intelligence to them. Our group isn't packing it up or anything, we'll still keep playing, but at least from our games, the game just isn't all that fast paced. Maybe we need to try more teams or something and hopefully that'll make things better. It sucks I've had to look like the ### by posting what many others are posting about, except they're nowhere to be found in this thread for the most part.:)
*still looking around* lol
Maybe they'll do Type 1, like they did in Magic....:cheeky:
Ignatz_Mouse
08/28/2003, 14:36
Originally posted by themark37
But it no less useful then it was before, you just have to have the right stragegy to get it to work, as you always did.
themark, you are right. But when I first started playing, I misunderstood and thought I could outwit mid-hss with Flash. I wish I still could. Given that he can't, I'd rather trade it for a point of damage or another power.
Originally posted by bobk815
Dead on. on Jay10 HSS doesn't say sqaut about CC ACTION or Ranged Action it says attack period. NOT ATTACK ACTION.
Heads up folks you are pushing rules that don't exist and quoting dogma that is unwritten.
Can you find me the rule that says that you can give someone both a Power Action (RCE or CCE) and a Move Action (HSS) on the same turn? Or, for that matter, can you show me where you'd be able to give any figure multiple actions during a single turn without the additional actions being Free Actions?
And, if you haven't given your HSS character a Move action, how is he moving as to allow him the attack action?
Ignatz_Mouse
08/28/2003, 14:41
bob: Who are you responding to?
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 14:46
Man, and to think Ninjas just go so much better!!:laugh: :p :) :laugh:
;)
DaLuvster89
08/28/2003, 14:55
thecriminal415 -
Look under forums, then Rules of battle - PsylockesLover has 5-6 threads that cover a lot of the "basics" to give you a better overall understanding of the rules. Like hooked on phonics for the new rulebook - "It worked for me."
Somebody pass me a helmet.
All I'm going to say is -
SAY KANG SUCKS NOW!!! I DARE YA!!!
LOL! :)
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 15:01
Kang is Totally Sweet now....but not as Sweet as Batman is gonna be!
RadicalX
08/28/2003, 15:09
Ninjas! Sweet! And by sweet, I mean completely AWESOME!
I was so happy to find out the DrGandalf said that what I was thinking was right...that perplex and outwit cannot come in the middle of an action. It puts things back the way they were in that regard...It's not as cool for flash that way, but clears things up and returns some structure to the game. And for that I am glad. =)
The way the rules are written, while there has been a lot of confusion, really makes it feel like a game system, and less like "Calvinball". It's more easily expanded by using simple phrases to refer to the mechanics of the game. (ie, no more "give them a movement action, but do not move them or give them a token" type wording)
I don't think, by any means, that this is a definitive rule set, but it's a good start, system-wise.
While I don't think it will be the norm at all, it might be kinda nice seeing some grounded or >gasp!< themed teams win some of the local tournaments... Brotherhood isn't looking too shabby...
RadicalX
08/28/2003, 15:16
I was looking at Brotherhood, too....Free move (and now that we don't have taxis, that's important!)...TK on Magneto...Pulse Wave on Avalanche....Perplex from Mystique....hmmmmmm....interesting!
Don't forget about your 2 Chargers (Toad and Blob) and Pyro is good at just about everything. You have your re-rollers...
Someone told me the other day that Blob was good in thenew rules... I'll still have to see that to believe it!
Hey! What about Flash getting to move for free via the JLA move and then getting to activate the HSS attack 'cause he's moving?!
So what he can't Outwit mid-move, he can move and attack for free with HSS as it stands right now ... ! He's so totally sweet (and by that, of course, I mean awesome) he might as well be a ninja. :)
DaLuvster89
08/28/2003, 15:40
That doesn't apply to Sabretooth, though -does it? - No, the move of Charge is a power action, so can't be free, right?
Now I'm lost - can Charge and Blades be used together at all?
I guess I need to see if blades is a power action...
I'll get it sooner or later... :)
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 15:45
Originally posted by DaLuvster89
That doesn't apply to Sabretooth, though -does it? - No, the move of Charge is a power action, so can't be free, right?
Now I'm lost - can Charge and Blades be used together at all?
I guess I need to see if blades is a power action...
I'll get it sooner or later... :)
DLuv> Charge is a two part action:
The movement is a Power action and the attack is a free action. So while you can't charge for free using the Brotherhood TA. You never could pre-Indy, and it's no different under the new rules.
As for Using B/C/F I'm not sure on that! Maybe Herocomplex will enlighten us on this...
Originally posted by DaLuvster89
That doesn't apply to Sabretooth, though -does it? - No, the move of Charge is a power action, so can't be free, right?
Now I'm lost - can Charge and Blades be used together at all?
I guess I need to see if blades is a power action...
I'll get it sooner or later... :)
Yes, they still work together. Charge is a power action that allows you to move and then make a close combat action. Blades requires a close combat action to activate, which is allowed by Charge, so it would still work.
That's my ruling, of course, and not the official ruling from 'on high' ... but I'd think that'd be what they'd say.
Kaitouace
08/28/2003, 15:47
Originally posted by DaLuvster89
That doesn't apply to Sabretooth, though -does it? - No, the move of Charge is a power action, so can't be free, right?
Now I'm lost - can Charge and Blades be used together at all?
I guess I need to see if blades is a power action...
My guess looking at the PAC is that you CAN use Charge as a Power Action and with it you get a free close combat action at the end. BCF is listed as a Close Combat Action, not a Power Action. But you wouldn't be able to use that combo with the Brotherhood ability since Charge is a Power Action and not a Move Action.
Darth Sabre
08/28/2003, 15:48
Dang you Jacin! You just made my trip to the WK site invalid! :p :) j/k
He's correct DLuv.
Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Dang you Jacin! You just made my trip to the WK site invalid! :p :) j/k
He's correct DLuv.
That's what I'm here for. :)
Oh, BTW - the Avengers still lost that battle by the new rules, but they did have an outstanding MVP - Vet Quicksilver.
What I never understood, and I wish they changed this, was the reletive uselessness of soaring. I don't understand the logic of a character with better manueverability, view, etc. unable to hit a grounded fig with a ranged attack, but the grounded guy with no real advantage of position can hit the flyer at half range? That seems one sided in the wrong direction. I don't know anyone who actually uses the mode as it's too inconvinient to change for minimal advantages, and seemingly more hinderance. I may just be missing some key strategies here. If anyone can enlighten me i'd appreciate it.
DaLuvster89
08/28/2003, 16:13
"What I never understood, and I wish they changed this, was the reletive uselessness of soaring. I don't understand the logic of a character with better manueverability, view, etc. unable to hit a grounded fig with a ranged attack, but the grounded guy with no real advantage of position can hit the flyer at half range? That seems one sided in the wrong direction. I don't know anyone who actually uses the mode as it's too inconvinient to change for minimal advantages, and seemingly more hinderance. I may just be missing some key strategies here. If anyone can enlighten me i'd appreciate it."
And now that fliers can move through enemies (a modified leap/climb of sorts), there's one ~less~ instance that you'd use soaring...
Thanks for clearing that Sabretooth thing up, guys - I think I was on the right track.
I thought you could do that already DaLuvster.
Originally posted by algrim
While I don't think it will be the norm at all, it might be kinda nice seeing some grounded or >gasp!< themed teams win some of the local tournaments... Brotherhood isn't looking too shabby...
Amen to that!
It looks like the Danger Girl team can actually be fielded at once! If Deuce is in the set you got leadership and Valerie is a support piece. People are still gonna cheese out though bringing the rest of us "fun" players down to their level in tournies, that will never change.
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
...the game just isn't all that fast paced. Maybe we need to try more teams or something and hopefully that'll make things better. It sucks I've had to look like the ### by posting what many others are posting about, except they're nowhere to be found in this thread for the most part.:)
*still looking around* lol
Don't worry Gacy's Clown... I still agree with you. I'm just tired of arguing about it (been doing it on the judge's forums since we got the Indy rules). For the most part, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut until I see an FAQ.
All I'll say (again) is that NAAT was completely unnecessary with the other changes. I tried it and I found that A) games were slowed down and B) brusiers are a thing of the past (although someone said all I need is a "sacrificial" piece to make them effective... great, now I have to figure that into a point cost for an army!).
Just make sure that for every tourney you play in you pack your HSS, Running Shot, TK, and Stealth characters... cause that's all you're gonna see.
Personally I really don't think that NAAT is that big a deal. You don't give the taxied guy a token, he/she/it can still act next turn without pushing still giving you an advantege. It makes some sense. Characters are "taxied" in the comics so often. Wiz Kids is really trying to emulate the battles seen in the comics which are epic and entertaining, not quick and cheap. You can still obliterate your opponent in one turn you just have to get there differently. Spiral players have been doing this forever! If it ain't broke don't fix it, but that which does not change will stagnate and "brake". I'm under the impression that Wiz Kids made these changes FOR US! Please don't place us in the "Star Trekkers) catagory of fans who are never satisfied. And I'm aware of my previous "whining" about the redoes issue and come to realisation that after i've stated my peace anything else is useless bellyaching. I'm going to learn to like the rules even the broken parts and work around them making me ultimately a better player. Have fun playing the game or it's lost all meaning.
Originally posted by Litz
I'm going to learn to like the rules even the broken parts and work around them making me ultimately a better player. Have fun playing the game or it's lost all meaning.
Quit with the making sense and being logical. You're clearly denying that the sky is falling. :)
lol
Yes but if the sky falls will that surely mean we'll be among the stars?
Everyone so far is making sense to be fair. At least from what i've read, all valid complaints.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 18:46
Originally posted by Litz
Wiz Kids is really trying to emulate the battles seen in the comics which are epic and entertaining, not quick and cheap.
Not to beat a dead horse, but if that was their goal, then why are flyers so hosed right now. A flyer SHOULD have an advantage over a nonflyer. That's about as comic sense as it comes.:grin:
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 18:47
Originally posted by hair10
Don't worry Gacy's Clown... I still agree with you. I'm just tired of arguing about it (been doing it on the judge's forums since we got the Indy rules). For the most part, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut until I see an FAQ.
All I'll say (again) is that NAAT was completely unnecessary with the other changes. I tried it and I found that A) games were slowed down and B) brusiers are a thing of the past (although someone said all I need is a "sacrificial" piece to make them effective... great, now I have to figure that into a point cost for an army!).
Just make sure that for every tourney you play in you pack your HSS, Running Shot, TK, and Stealth characters... cause that's all you're gonna see.
God love ya....I don't feel so alone out there now:)
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
Not to beat a dead horse, but if that was their goal, then why are flyers so hosed right now:
Who am I Kreskin?!! I don't know, they're drunk, hopped up on goofballs, high, oxygen deprived, a mix of all? I don't know! You tell me why they messed up. Remember these are the same people who took 4 figures before Spiderman got SUPERSENSES! Even people who don't read comics know what SPIDERSENSE is! Come on, we're still suprised they make questionable desisions? It's like saying you were suprised Enter the Matrix was a big unfinished load of donkey ####! Infogrames makes it's buisness puking on our favorite liscenses. I'm not suprised or let down.
-Aim your sights low, so low when the product is made, no matter how cruddy it is your still impressed.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 19:29
Originally posted by Litz
Who am I Kreskin?!! I don't know, they're drunk, hopped up on goofballs, high, oxygen deprived, a mix of all? I don't know! You tell me why they messed up. Remember these are the same people who took 4 figures before Spiderman got SUPERSENSES! Even people who don't read comics know what SPIDERSENSE is! Come on, we're still suprised they make questionable desisions? It's like saying you were suprised Enter the Matrix was a big unfinished load of donkey ####! Infogrames makes it's buisness puking on our favorite liscenses. I'm not suprised or let down.
-Aim your sights low, so low when the product is made, no matter how cruddy it is your still impressed.
LMAO!!!:laugh:
They've had weird rules for flyers forever now. I'm not suprised anymore.
Gacy's Clown
08/28/2003, 20:03
No doubt. We've had people on these forums who have problems with "opinions" forever now too....so I'm not surprised anymore either.:cheeky:
Though I do believe things won't change unless people request it. Think about it. Wiz Kids took our suggestions, advice, complaints, comments, #####ing, whining, etc. AND CHANGED THE GAME...FOR US!!! Not many companies do that! For every one of you complaining about the NAAT ####, there were 2 or 3 of you complaining about taxi problems! I looked at the rulebook, it's not all that different! It's more like a freakin errata! Almost everything is the same. Truth is they FIXED what you (most of you sorry to categoriese) said was broken, now THAT'S broken! My god, YOU write up some rules yourself and then try to please EVERYBODY!
Now excuse me while I go rip my head of and bounce it around to get all the stupid out!
EVIL CAP
08/28/2003, 21:13
LOL pathetic Indyclix was already going to be 90% stealth/bcf vcharacters or variants at best not they cant be hit inless you TK up a pulsewave character in 4-5 spaces then HOPE the other figures dont have a deep enough dial to kill you next round.If the Marvel outdoor map in IC where FL was the only option didnt cause enough draws imagine how interesting THIS is gonna be
Welcome to camper clix kiddies where we re-enact World War 1 by never leaving our trenches.
Its so sad i cant even laugh at it...............ah heck why not ILL LAUGH ANYWAYS :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
CaptainCarl
08/28/2003, 23:02
-Aim your sights low, so low when the product is made, no matter how cruddy it is your still impressed.
Funny you said that Litz
I just had some chinese food and opened up my fortune
"People who expect nothing will never abe disappointed"
efin brilliant if ask me
thecaptain:grin:
RadicalX
08/28/2003, 23:07
New Flyer Rule!!!!
Everyone now get's a free action when flying off the handle....hehe
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
Kang is Totally Sweet now....but not as Sweet as Batman is gonna be!
No he still pretty much sucks, his one click of pulsewave doesn't make him any good. But Blizaard is way better.
DBlizzard
08/29/2003, 08:19
Originally posted by Jay10
- A carried character may not be given an action on the turn it was carried.
That's actually not exactly true (not even counting the "free action" discussion). You can give a figure an action and then carry the figure. You just can't give the figure any non-free action for the turn, after it's been carried.
DBlizzard
08/29/2003, 08:42
Originally posted by warden
Brother Magneto is the Judge Coordinator - a new role. He is a Wizkids employee and works in the same office as the designers (Jon L and Jeff Grubb). DrGandalf is a volunteer who lives and works elsewhere and so, in practise, is out of the loop. Brother Magneto is doing the right thing by getting fast answers back to us but the way that the Arbitrator role is being sidelined should be addressed.
Personally, when something this big comes down, I think that the designer responsible should be online taking the heat rather than being shielded by middle-men. I believe that it's this person that will be writing the new FAQ and that won't be done right if there are too many cooks.
The designer has too many things to do (like design the games) compared to answering questions (which the former Rules Arbitrator has mentioned is almost a full-time job in itself). That's why they created the Arbitrator positions, to answer the questions on the boards for the players.
The Judge Coordinator does many things. However, one of those roles is to answer rules questions for the Judges. Up until the last couple of days, all the rules questions were coming from the Judges.
Both the Coordinator & Arbitrator get their rulings from the same source, the game designers. Sometimes, they answer the questions themselves (indeed, this has led to some incorrect rulings in the past in all the game systems - but that's the exception to the rule). However, for something this new, you can be sure they were briefed by the designers about any questions they may answer.
Does this mean these rulings are written in stone? No. Even if a ruling is made "official" (like the Perplex in the middle of an action ruling), they may find out that the ruling had unintended consequences and later change the ruling. They may even errata the rulebook if that is necessary to fix a problem in the game (as has been done many times in Mechwarrior & Mage Knight).
DaLuvster89
08/29/2003, 09:14
Braden-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
Kang is Totally Sweet now....but not as Sweet as Batman is gonna be!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No he still pretty much sucks, his one click of pulsewave doesn't make him any good. But Blizaard is way better."
You know what? You might be right. *gasp* I've been thinking about it - One of my favorite tactics with Kang was to get his Pulse wave all Enhanced/Shielded up for a big boom on an opponent's grouping, hurting his "lackeys" without a care. Now, since Pulse Wave ignores all TA's and Powers, you are only doing one click, ever, unless you roll a crit hit. Sure, it's pretty sweet that it ignores everything in it's path, but now that it has been revealed that Perplex ~can't~ work in the middle of an action, if I'm understanding that correctly... *sigh* At least that attack of 13 with Pulse Wave is pretty nice... excuse me....
*runs away weeping like a little girl*
Hack-n-slash
08/29/2003, 11:31
What I never understood, and I wish they changed this, was the reletive uselessness of soaring. I don't understand the logic of a character with better manueverability, view, etc. unable to hit a grounded fig with a ranged attack, but the grounded guy with no real advantage of position can hit the flyer at half range?
Seems about right to me.
The flyer is typically moving, the grounded figure is not.
It easier to hit a moving target than hit a target while moving.
The grounded figure is also typically harder to make out against the ground than the flyer is against the sky.
Basically: You don't snipe from airplanes; you drop bombs.
RadicalX
08/29/2003, 11:42
Drop bombs? Cool...should we then be able to energy explode from soaring? hehe All hail Ultron, the destroyer! Woo! hehe
Hack-n-slash: good points unfortunately soaring just doesn't have any real pros to counter the cons. The sniper part made alot of sense.
Hack-n-slash
08/30/2003, 18:02
Hack-n-slash: good points unfortunately soaring just doesn't have any real pros to counter the cons. The sniper part made alot of sense.
I agree that soaring doesn't have a lot of benefits.
[Especially now that L/C'ers can close combat them!]
Maybe if they let taxis end the turn soaring...
[After all, their cargo is still adjacent.]
I guess they just didn't want to have to figure out what happens to the hulk when wasp, who was carrying him,
gets KO'ed...
Thats easy, Hulk blows up. He just explodes for no reason. :)
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