Indy HeroClix Rules and PAC Now Available!

[Draddog]

WizKids has posted PDF's for the Official Indy HeroClix Rules and PAC for public consumption.
Find them here:
* <A HREF="http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/indy/documents/IndyHeroClixRuleBook.pdf">Indy HeroClix Rules</A>
* <A HREF="http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/indy/documents/IndyHeroClixPAC.pdf">Indy HeroClix PAC</A>

[suprsktrjustn]

yay we can talk about the new rules now!!!,

So whats everyones opinion on the pulsewave change, i think it makes the power alot more usefull.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Agreed. The Invisible Girl Turtle is now a thing of the past.

[Terman8er]

OK...*cues fireworks*

Lets see the all the pretty lights!

[wrb1066]

Is anyone else having a problem viewing the new rules and PAC? I guess there are so many people trying to get them it is more than WizKids server can handle.

[AruthaEvanstil]

AH, wizkids caved! They couldn't stand having us bicker about what we don't know.

Love Ya wizkids!!!! Even with the Rule change !!!!

[kellykc]

since energy explosion reduces your damage value to 1, you can only explode one target regardless of the # of arrows, correct?

[davenappy]

Jeez, I log on to see if there are any new Indyclix figure previews, and I get the rule changes instead!

Power Actions....no carrying flyers.....it was all true. I need to sit down and read the new rules all the way through before I pass judgment. Man, I need a color printer to print these out, or I can just wait for the new set to come out.

[EvilGenius]

I like the changes made to Impervious. It never made much sense that Superman might not take any grenade damage if it hits him square in the face, but if it hits Steel, next to him, the 'blast' would damage him. Now I think that Impervious is worth its cost.

[pezdork]

how is the crusade team ability any different from regular knockback rules?

also just a score sheet only one rumor was true flyers cant taxi flyers.

i would have liked to have seen teh mk dungeon rules applied but i guess i can deal!

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by wrb1066
Is anyone else having a problem viewing the new rules and PAC? I guess there are so many people trying to get them it is more than WizKids server can handle.

It's been an issue, but it should not be a surprise:

Revelations 14:7 -

And the pale rider opened the seventh seal and behold, there was silence on the Realms. Men and women of all nations gnashed their teeth as the WizKids site was overwhelmed with traffic. The curtain of darkness was pulled away and the Indyclix Rules were made plain for all to see.

[EmperorNorton]

Finally I can ask:
Can Incapacitate now be enhanced?

@pezdork: It took me quite a while to figure it out, but normally an attack has to be successful to generate knockback. The crusade TA generates knockback whether the attack is successful or not.

EmperorNorton

[Spidersense]

EVERYBODY BREATHE!!!! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by EmperorNorton
Finally I can ask:
Can Incapacitate now be enhanced?

@pezdork: It took me quite a while to figure it out, but normally an attack has to be successful to generate knockback. The crusade TA generates knockback whether the attack is successful or not.

EmperorNorton

Yes, it can be enhanced and/or perplexed!

[hair10]

Originally posted by DS-00-0, FSD
Agreed. The Invisible Girl Turtle is now a thing of the past.
Suuuurrrre it is.... still got to get in close enough to use it!

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by kellykc
since energy explosion reduces your damage value to 1, you can only explode one target regardless of the # of arrows, correct?

No EE works the same as it always has.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by EmperorNorton
Finally I can ask:
Can Incapacitate now be enhanced?

Enhanced and Perplexed, apparently. As can Pulse Wave, from what I understand.

[hair10]

Originally posted by EmperorNorton
Finally I can ask:
Can Incapacitate now be enhanced?

Actually Darth Sabre, that is still a hotly debated question right now!

[The Vision]

Originally posted by DS-00-0, FSD
The Invisible Girl Turtle is now a thing of the past.

You've still got to roll over an 18 to hit anybody in the turtle...

[fantasia]

Hmm, the PAC seems to indicate that you can now perplex the attack/range of RCE/CCE commands, is that correct?

I don't think the taxi rules are that bad. True, flying figs can't be carried anymore, but even grounded figs can't do anything after being taxied besides perplex and outwit.

[fantasia]

Originally posted by The Vision
You've still got to roll over an 18 to hit anybody in the turtle...

Powers and team abilities are ignored during pulsewave attacks...just target one of the invisible girl's buddies :-).

[IronFistDK]

And what about the change to Enhancement? Now it costs the fig an action, albeit a free action, but still an action...now Psylocke has to push to enhance two turns in a row.

[SonofVader]

Pulse Wave question (now that I can ask it): Can Kang make 2 Pulse Wave attacks? Cause if he can, BAM, let's kick it up a notch! He becomes truly nasty with Psylocke! Two TKers to move them up and BAM, every character except for Juggernaut is off Impervious/Invulnerable in one attack! 190 points of GOLD!

And Blizzard is now a staple on my teams.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by hair10
Suuuurrrre it is.... still got to get in close enough to use it!

In mixed games, you can hit it on turn two (the earliest possible for attack anyway) with two figures costing less than 100 pts.: Cosmic Boy and Avalanche. Avalanche will even allow Cosmic Boy to move for free.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by The Vision
You've still got to roll over an 18 to hit anybody in the turtle...

Nope. Pulse wave ignores team abilities and superpowers. That means defend.

[DCFan#1]

Get ready for perplex mid-action, outwit mid-action, and a loss of structure to the game.

I've supported the rules up until the point where they took the very structure of the game as we know it, and threw it out the window. Hell, this game might as well not even be turn based now! Garbage, absolute garbage.

Rich

[Mastermind]

I am unsure of Pulse Wave.. or perhaps I am misreading it. If you use Pulse Wave, do you ignore toughness, supersenses, defend and the rest? Or is it just speaking of ignoring stealth, batteam ability and the like?

Chet

[Spidersense]

I dont think Incapacitate can be Perplexed as it says the damage value becomes 0 for the attack. It would be like EE. You perplex damage to a 2, then when the fig Perplexes, it drops down to 0.

Regarding EE, it does not look like EE will be stackable. When you EE, your damage value becomes 1 for the attack. If you have 2 bolts, and hit both figures, as per the multiple ranged combat target rule, you deal out 1 damage to the target of your choice and those adjacent. Each separate target will not get 1 damage. This will be cleared up in a FAQ.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
And what about the change to Enhancement? Now it costs the fig an action, albeit a free action, but still an action...now Psylocke has to push to enhance two turns in a row.

No, look at the definition of "free action".

[KarateForever]

Originally posted by The Vision
You've still got to roll over an 18 to hit anybody in the turtle...

PW ignores everything including Defend. You would only have to hit the figs natural defense.

Indy PAC
This attack ignores all team abilities and powers and abilities characters within range have.

Unless of course IG is outside of the range of the attack. Then I would guess her Defend power would still work. Anyone else have thought on this?

KF

[JacinB]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
And what about the change to Enhancement? Now it costs the fig an action, albeit a free action, but still an action...now Psylocke has to push to enhance two turns in a row.

No, it's a free action. It's not a move, power, or attack action so it doesn't cause you to push. It's just like Outwit or Perplex.

[DCFan#1]

Oh no, Incapacite can be perplexed. Brother Magneto has clarified that in the WK judges forum. That is the garbage part I was referring to...

Rich

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by hair10
Actually Darth Sabre, that is still a hotly debated question right now!

Not really hair10, Bro_mags has made it plainly clear that you can in fact do that. Once people realize the definitions of the rules, they will become aware of these changes too.

It's not debated my friend, but more like hotly contested.....;)

[SonofVader]

Hm, if I read this right, RCE works with running shot and CCE works with Charge, right?

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
And what about the change to Enhancement? Now it costs the fig an action, albeit a free action, but still an action...now Psylocke has to push to enhance two turns in a row.

YOu dont take a token for a free action.

[mindspa24]

Can't get to the website right now, firewall. Can someone e-mail the rules and PAC to me? paul.stansbury@mcguire.af.mil

[hair10]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Get ready for perplex mid-action, outwit mid-action, and a loss of structure to the game.

Yeah... I'm still waiting for the "official" answer on this one. I read what Brother_M stated on wizkids, but he seems to be the only one who shares his opinion!

[SonofVader]

Nope, never mind. Got confused by the new wording on Charge/Running Shot.

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by SonofVader
Hm, if I read this right, RCE works with running shot and CCE works with Charge, right?

Running Shot says you are allowed to take a ranged combat action as a free action. RCE is a power action, not a ranged combat action.

Same logic with CCE.

Read the powers carefully. Everything is worded the way it is for a reason...

[themark37]

A message to anyone who is reading the rules for the first time.

Read them all very closely. Even if you think you know what it is, read it!!!

I skipped the "2 and 12" Section because I figured I knew about it so I didn't need to read it. I didn't find out till later that there was a change in that section.

[DCFan#1]

It's ridiculous, hair10. I honestly don't think Brother Magneto knows what he's talking about here. Either that or he didn't understand the question, and now he's sticking to an incorrect answer.

Rich

[mindspa24]

Forget it I got them.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by SonofVader
Hm, if I read this right, RCE works with running shot and CCE works with Charge, right?
Nope. It was originally thought that you could when the rules were made avaialble to the judges...but if you read that they are infact two actions (charge (power action) and a close combat attack is a free action) you cannot since RCE and CCE are power actions.

[Wasteland]

And the knockback goes off regardless or Invulnerability or Toughness...nice...and the fact you can use running shot and charge with Ranged combat Expert and Close Combat Expert...could be nasty...

[mindspa24]

Ooops still need the PAC, someone help please.

paul.stansbury@mcguire.af.mil

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by Wasteland
And the knockback goes off regardless or Invulnerability or Toughness...nice...and the fact you can use running shot and charge with Ranged combat Expert and Close Combat Expert...could be nasty...

No you cant. See Darth's response above.

[hair10]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
It's ridiculous, hair10. I honestly don't think Brother Magneto knows what he's talking about here. Either that or he didn't understand the question, and now he's sticking to an incorrect answer.

It's not the first time he's been wrong (and had to come back and say that he was). I'm not bashing the man... just hoping that its a mistake and he does recant. Otherwise, things just got UGLY!

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
It's ridiculous, hair10. I honestly don't think Brother Magneto knows what he's talking about here. Either that or he didn't understand the question, and now he's sticking to an incorrect answer.

Rich

Again the reasoning is in the definitions of the 0 damage and no damage in the glossary. I don't think his answer is incorrect.

[webhead817]

Originally posted by pezdork
how is the crusade team ability any different from regular knockback rules?

Knockback occurs even if the attack is not successful. Also, the amount of knockback is determined by their printed damage, not the damage dealt. (For example, B/C/F could change the amount of damage dealt.)

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Spidersense
I dont think Incapacitate can be Perplexed as it says the damage value becomes 0 for the attack. It would be like EE. You perplex damage to a 2, then when the fig Perplexes, it drops down to 0.

It's not in the wording of Incapacitate so much as the wording of Perplex, Enhancement, and when you can use Free Actions.

Since a free action can take place at any point during your action, Perplex and Enhancement can now be used after the damage value has been reduced where before they had to be used prior to the damage value being reduced. Get it?

[SonofVader]

Does anyone have a list of teams/corresponding team abilites. I can't find it on the PAC, and I can't remember what all of them are off the top of my head...

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by Wasteland
And the knockback goes off regardless or Invulnerability or Toughness...nice...and the fact you can use running shot and charge with Ranged combat Expert and Close Combat Expert...could be nasty...

Also while Inv, Tough. etc, reduce the damage dealt, you only get knocked back the amount of damage you take. So if you deal 3 clicks with knockback, and the opponent hits a 5 for his Impervious, the damage dealt is reduced to 0. So there would be no knockback.

To All: Learn the terms damage dealt, damage value and damage taken. It will help a great deal with your questions.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by fantasia
Hmm, the PAC seems to indicate that you can now perplex the attack/range of RCE/CCE commands, is that correct?


Yes. You can perplex everything except damage dealt or the damage value.

[themark37]

On the subject of Pulse Wave:

Pulse Wave ingores all powers with in the Pulse Wavers range (at least that is what have been said so far). This includes all powes on both teams. It ignores all and here are just a few that need mentioning Stealth, Inv., Impervious, Toughness, Supersenses, enhancement, and Team Abilities (including your team abilites like Shield and Hydra).

[Deathlok23]

Originally posted by pezdork
how is the crusade team ability any different from regular knockback rules?
They cause Knockback even if they don't hit the opposing figure on any doubles roll except a roll of 2. Also, they always do their damage value in Knockback, not the amount that the figure takes after powers like Toughness, Invulnerability, etc.

Well my fellow Judges, the Indy (Hero)Clix rules have hit the fan:surprised !

[Ignatz_Mouse]

How could you perplax or outwit mid-action? They may be free, but they're still actions.

Unless that "any time" is taken very liberally.

[SonofVader]

Whoa, wait. I see where Enhancement works at any time, but Perplex only says "Once during your turn." Free action states nothing about timing. Otherwise, perplex would work with EE, Pulse Wave, etc...
...
...
Dear God, I hope I'm right on this timing thing... otherwise, V Ultron just got reeeaaal ugly.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Deathlok23


Well my fellow Judges, the Indy (Hero)Clix rules have hit the fan:surprised !

Yes they have pass out the prozac! :)

Ignatz> At Any time means just that, at any time. So yes, you can do those in mid-action.

Also notice that you can no longer PC your failed Super senses and Impervious rolls!

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Does Invulnerability, Impr. or Toughness reduce knockback damage?

[themark37]

Originally posted by SonofVader
Whoa, wait. I see where Enhancement works at any time, but Perplex only says "Once during your turn." Free action states nothing about timing. Otherwise, perplex would work with EE, Pulse Wave, etc...
...
...
Dear God, I hope I'm right on this timing thing... otherwise, V Ultron just got reeeaaal ugly.

You are correct and yes Vet Ultron and some friendly Con Artists will be very very very Nasty.

[IronFistDK]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
How could you perplax or outwit mid-action? They may be free, but they're still actions.

Unless that "any time" is taken very liberally.

The new rules say under "Free Actions" that free actions can be used at any time - your turn or your opponent's turn.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Also notice that you can no longer PC your failed Super senses and Impervious rolls!

Howso?

It's not obvious to me.

[Darth Sabre]

Mind control is now uglier> It no longer assigns an action token to the figure that has been Mind controlled. So you can continously MC the same figure on your turn, whether or not they are pushed or have an action token.

I can MC you figure MULTIPLE times per turn.......


UGLY!

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
How could you perplax or outwit mid-action? They may be free, but they're still actions.

Unless that "any time" is taken very liberally.

It specifically states that Free Actions can be used at any time during your turn or during your opponents turn. The only thing that would override this is if the Power being used specifically states when its Free Action can or can't be used.

It also specifically states in the glossary that Powers that are Free Actions (specifically mentioning Perplex, Outwit, and Enhancement) may be used with any other powers.

Thus, you can use it with Incapacitate. In fact, you should be able to use it with any power that reduces the Damage Value of a character. You would not, however, be able to use it with Mind Control as mind control states that it does 'no damage' rather than having the damage value reduced.

[themark37]

The new Pulse Wave description on only one target makes LE Doctor Doom insane!!

And with the rest of Pulse Wave description, I have started to grab my old Blizzard figures and get them polished and ready to go.

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by JacinB
It's not in the wording of Incapacitate so much as the wording of Perplex, Enhancement, and when you can use Free Actions.

Since a free action can take place at any point during your action, Perplex and Enhancement can now be used after the damage value has been reduced where before they had to be used prior to the damage value being reduced. Get it?

So this is what you are saying? You choose to Incapacitate, your damage value is reduced to 0. You hit, so you Enhance the damage dealt to 1? I could see this part, that is the way I thought it played before anyway. Enhancement says you increase the "damage dealt". So this makes sense.

But with Perplex, you choose to Incapacitate, your damage value is reduced to 0. You hit and Perplex your damage VALUE to 1. You can't Perplex damage dealt as it is not a combat value.

That would be my argument.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
Howso?

It's not obvious to me.

I don't have the rules on me at the moment, but I beleive it makes mention of re-rolling one of your opponet's roll on their turn or something to that effect.

Can someone throw me a bone here?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I've read the rules, but I missed half of this stuff. Some of it is very subtle.

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Mind control is now uglier> It no longer assigns an action token to the figure that has been Mind controlled. So you can continously MC the same figure on your turn, whether or not they are pushed or have an action token.

I can MC you figure MULTIPLE times per turn.......


UGLY!

Yes, it appears that you can. You just wont be pushing them while you do it.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
Howso?

It's not obvious to me.

Umm, read the PAC a little more closely.

On your opponents turn, you can only force him or her to re-roll. You cannot re-roll your rolls on your opponents turn, you can only re-roll your rolls on your turn (thus, you cannot force your opponent to re-roll their Impervious or Super Senses either ...).

[webhead817]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Yes, it appears that you can. You just wont be pushing them while you do it.

Yep, this differentiates Mind Control from Incapcitate much more than before. Incapcitate used to be a poor man's Mind Control, now it serves a completely different purpose.

Which is good in my book.

[TychesCoin]

Originally posted by themark37
A message to anyone who is reading the rules for the first time.

Read them all very closely. Even if you think you know what it is, read it!!!

I skipped the "2 and 12" Section because I figured I knew about it so I didn't need to read it. I didn't find out till later that there was a change in that section.

Thanks for the advice themark. Went back through and caught something in the Ranged Combat section concerning LOF I'd missed. The exact diagonal between characters is blocked now.

[mindspa24]

please someone HELP HELP HELP I need the new PAC. Can u e-mail me it at paul.stansbury@mcguire.af.mil

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Yes, it appears that you can. You just wont be pushing them while you do it.

No it doesn't appear that way, that's the way it is!

You use your fig, assign an action!
I MC that fig 3or 4 times on my turn-No action.

You push your fig next turn.

I MC it again-no action!

You let that fig rest!

I MC it again!

That's the way it is...I contested this change as a judge..I think it's a bad change. IMHO it no longer makes it useful to MC Hulk or Superman, as the trade offs are not worth the 2 clicks of damage.

[Spidersense]

Perplex changes COMBAT VALUES, it does not change damage dealt. I think the powers that reduce your damage value to 1, 0, whatever, imply that it stays that way until the attack is made. There is no way to break in the middle and say "Wait, I know my damage value is one, but I am going to Perplex it to 3 right before it goes off". I just dont see this in the rules.

[IronFistDK]

So, unless I'm missing something, both EE and Inc and now be Perplexed/Enhanced. And EE still stackable? V Boomerang (or even worse, V Ultron) and 3 Con Artists, EE for 4 at 3 targets...Yipes!

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Perplex changes COMBAT VALUES, it does not change damage dealt. I think the powers that reduce your damage value to 1, 0, whatever, imply that it stays that way until the attack is made. There is no way to break in the middle and say "Wait, I know my damage value is one, but I am going to Perplex it to 3 right before it goes off". I just dont see this in the rules.

Read the definitions in the glossary for Free action, 0 damage, and no damage powers! this should clarify things for you.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Perplex changes COMBAT VALUES, it does not change damage dealt. I think the powers that reduce your damage value to 1, 0, whatever, imply that it stays that way until the attack is made. There is no way to break in the middle and say "Wait, I know my damage value is one, but I am going to Perplex it to 3 right before it goes off". I just dont see this in the rules.

Read the PAC on it again. Incapacitate changes your damage value, not the damage dealt. Thus, you can Perplex or Enhance it.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

We need a new FAQ-- and also, it would be handy to have a "what's new?" quide.

[IronFistDK]

Originally posted by Spidersense
Perplex changes COMBAT VALUES, it does not change damage dealt. I think the powers that reduce your damage value to 1, 0, whatever, imply that it stays that way until the attack is made. There is no way to break in the middle and say "Wait, I know my damage value is one, but I am going to Perplex it to 3 right before it goes off". I just dont see this in the rules.

You said it yourself, combat values. Damage value is a combat value. And Perplex and Enhancement are free actions, which the new rules say you can use at any time. And that's literally, at any time.

[Spidersense]

Just a word of warning as these rules dicussions go on. I count myself on this as well. If you have some authority on a rule interpretation, please say so. We may have a certain explanation in our head (as I do), but we may need to open our eyes and look at what the other person is actually saying.

Keep an open mind as these rules are discussed. That goes for me too!

[JacinB]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
So, unless I'm missing something, both EE and Inc and now be Perplexed/Enhanced. And EE still stackable? V Boomerang (or even worse, V Ultron) and 3 Con Artists, EE for 4 at 3 targets...Yipes!

Yes, but he'd have to divide that 4 damage among the targets hit. So, he'd still only be doing 4 clix total, not four clix to each of his targets.

In the past, he'd've been able to hit each person for 4. Now, he can hit one for 2, and two for 1 for a total of 4. Get it?

[SonofVader]

Dealing with MC, have you guys thought of the Mad Hatter (R) team? Bunch of Mad Hatters, Saturn Girls and Clayface IIIs = one of your characters attacking another of your characters 3 times in one turn. Use a Jervis Tetch to Incapacitate (if needed), rinse, repeat.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
So, unless I'm missing something, both EE and Inc and now be Perplexed/Enhanced. And EE still stackable? V Boomerang (or even worse, V Ultron) and 3 Con Artists, EE for 4 at 3 targets...Yipes!

You are correct. However, remember that positioning these figs to do this will be quite a task. So while you can do it, the practicality in such an attempt, may not be there. You'd be wasting so many actions attempting to do this, while you're opponent is picking you off....could make for a shorter game than you had envisioned! ;)

[Widdle Wade]

hmmmm i dont know if this has been said

but look at RCE and CCE

you can now use them with charge, running shot, hypersonicspeed, you just can't use them with a power that increases their damage, therefore you can use perplex to up your charecters attack as welll, just not their damage...
making cyclops a much much better piece

also

the whole flyers carrying non-fliers and then the passenger can't make an attack that turn, this is gonna increase the amount of "camping" teams, because by the time an opponent moves into range the camper will just blast him
the only way around it will be massive use of stealth, and some running shot, or lotsa hypersonic speed
as well as lots of Mandarins running around.

I dont have really any campers at my venue but I hear people complain about them all the time so I'm interested to see how this works out for them.


(on a positive note this really hampers firelrods effectivness, so all you firelord lovers.... im sorry)

hmm with teh new pulse wave stuff might we see soem Kangs on the battlefield.... he could have double shot pulsewave :)

finally i think these new rules really make Nightcrawler, Amazo and flash truly awesome charecters, since they dont really need taxi's to attack and move in one turn



anyways good luck to all and this should be fun

cheers

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Perplex says "value" and Enhance says "damage dealt." It's a fine point, but important.

[olcottr]

Originally posted by EvilGenius
I like the changes made to Impervious. It never made much sense that Superman might not take any grenade damage if it hits him square in the face, but if it hits Steel, next to him, the 'blast' would damage him. Now I think that Impervious is worth its cost.

On the other hand, Impervious now does not work against Mind Control or Incapacitate, because they do not deal damage.

[SonofVader]

Man, perplexing Kang's Pulse Wave will quickly break through most turtle shells. Heck, even with the way EE is now worded, I'd love to do 2 spread out, 1 spread out, 1 spread out to all of those IG tanks. Use V Ultron to just take everything out.

[Jay10]

Let's try and make a list of the new rules. Here's what I have so far:

- Fliers can't carry fliers.

- A carried character may not be given an action on the turn it was carried.

- Damage is not reduced to 1 when making multiple range combat attacks, instead a player may "divide the attacker's damage value any way among the successfully hit targets."

- Free actions maybe be used mid-action. So, for example, you can Perplex up the damage delt from Energy Explosion.

- Characters with the Leap/Climb Superpower may make a close combat attack against Soaring units.

- Characters with the Charge Superpower are uneffected by Force Blast.

- Pulse Wave attacks ignore all Superpowers and Team Abilities on the target character(s).

- Impervious works "whenever a character recieves damage."

- Range Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert work with other Superpowers such as Hypersonic Speed and Willpower. However "no other powers may increase a character's damage value or damage delt when that character uses [Range or Close] Combat Expert."

[Spidersense]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
You said it yourself, combat values. Damage value is a combat value. And Perplex and Enhancement are free actions, which the new rules say you can use at any time. And that's literally, at any time.

I think it is the same argument as with EE before. You can't Perplex EE because when you do, and use EE, your damage value hits 1 regardless of the Perplex.

I am saying, I think the intention from what I read is that the damage value stays at 1 or 0 for the duration of your attack. An attack is one moment in time. Not a bunch of little packets where you can break in and Perplex up your damage value before the attack goes out.

[bear42]

Alright, maybe I'm kind of slow, but according to what I've read, Pulse Wave is pretty much like Psychic Blast now only a whole lot better. Would that be a correct assesment?

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Widdle Wade
hmmmm i dont know if this has been said

but look at RCE and CCE

you can now use them with charge, running shot, hypersonicspeed, you just can't use them with a power that increases their damage, therefore you can use perplex to up your charecters attack as welll, just not their damage...
making cyclops a much much better piece

Again, no you can't. Take another look yourself. They are both Power actions, and you can't take two power actions in the same turn unless one of them is free and neither of these are.

also

the whole flyers carrying non-fliers and then the passenger can't make an attack that turn, this is gonna increase the amount of "camping" teams, because by the time an opponent moves into range the camper will just blast him
the only way around it will be massive use of stealth, and some running shot, or lotsa hypersonic speed
as well as lots of Mandarins running around.

I dont have really any campers at my venue but I hear people complain about them all the time so I'm interested to see how this works out for them.

It doesn't increase turtling or make it any more effective than what it is now. It just makes you have to think about what you're willing to risk in order to hurt your opponent. Think chess rather than checkers and you'll do alright.


(on a positive note this really hampers firelrods effectivness, so all you firelord lovers.... im sorry)

hmm with teh new pulse wave stuff might we see soem Kangs on the battlefield.... he could have double shot pulsewave :)

finally i think these new rules really make Nightcrawler, Amazo and flash truly awesome charecters, since they dont really need taxi's to attack and move in one turn

Yeah, and that you might be able to use E/V Flash's JLA ability to give him a move action that doesn't cost you anything and still use the hit and run ability for HSS ... ? Suddenly, he's one of the scariest HSSers out there.

[IronFistDK]

Originally posted by JacinB
Yes, but he'd have to divide that 4 damage among the targets hit. So, he'd still only be doing 4 clix total, not four clix to each of his targets.

In the past, he'd've been able to hit each person for 4. Now, he can hit one for 2, and two for 1 for a total of 4. Get it?

Ahh...so now the new rules say that you do your total damage when attacking multiple ranged targets, with or without EE, (as opposed to reducing it to one, like before) but divide it among the hit figs as you choose? Interesting...

[SonofVader]

Just to clarify (since I was wrong on this one earlier):

RCE and CCE do not work with Charge/Hypersonic/Running Shot.

This is because RCE and CCE have been changed to Power Actions, while Charge/Hypersonic/Running Shot only allow Close Combat/Ranged Combat actions.

[Jay10]

Let's try and make a list of the new rules. Here's what I have so far:

- Fliers can't carry fliers.

- A carried character may not be given an action on the turn it was carried.

- Damage is not reduced to 1 when making multiple range combat attacks, instead a player may "divide the attacker's damage value any way among the successfully hit targets."

- Free actions maybe be used mid-action. So, for example, you can Perplex up the damage delt from Energy Explosion.

- Characters with the Leap/Climb Superpower may make a close combat attack against Soaring units.

- Characters with the Charge Superpower are uneffected by Force Blast.

- Pulse Wave attacks ignore all Superpowers and Team Abilities on the target character(s).

- Impervious works "whenever a character recieves damage."

- Range Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert work with other Superpowers such as Hypersonic Speed and Willpower. However "no other powers may increase a character's damage value or damage delt when that character uses [Range or Close] Combat Expert."

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Widdle Wade
hmmmm i dont know if this has been said

but look at RCE and CCE

you can now use them with charge, running shot, hypersonicspeed, you just can't use them with a power that increases their damage, therefore you can use perplex to up your charecters attack as welll, just not their damage...
making cyclops a much much better piece


No you cannot. In order to Use RCE and CCE you must assign your figure a power action.

Charge and Runningshot> The movement parts of these are Power actions and the attack is a free action. you cannot assign two power actions to a fig in the same turn.

[kellykc]

Just also a change to add: you cannot pick up and attack with an object on the same turn (under super strength).... so Doc Samson cannot pick up and charge on same turn but has to pick up first turn, then charge next...

[SonofVader]

bear42- I think you're correct on the Psychic Blast/Pulse Wave assesment. I can't think of a reason why it would work just like Psychic Blast. It also acts as the Superman TA if you have multiple stealthed figures within your range.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Spidersense
I think it is the same argument as with EE before. You can't Perplex EE because when you do, and use EE, your damage value hits 1 regardless of the Perplex.

I am saying, I think the intention from what I read is that the damage value stays at 1 or 0 for the duration of your attack. An attack is one moment in time. Not a bunch of little packets where you can break in and Perplex up your damage value before the attack goes out.

The problem is, despite how you might interpret the intention of the rule, that's not what the Magister (Brother Magneto, in this case) has ruled.

You can Perplex and Enhance attacks that have had their damage value reduced to 1 or 0. You can't use it to help attacks that do no damage.

The progression is like this:
1) You state your attack using Incapacitate.
2) Your damage value for the attack is reduced to 0.
3) You can interject a Perplex (or 5) in to increase your damage value.
4) You roll for the attack.
5) The attack hits or misses doing the now-Perplexed damage value and Incapacitating your opponent.

Free Actions change a lot of things. Get used to them.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
Ahh...so now the new rules say that you do your total damage when attacking multiple ranged targets, with or without EE, (as opposed to reducing it to one, like before) but divide it among the hit figs as you choose? Interesting...

Yes. Hawkeye got the shaft, so to speak.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by JacinB
The problem is, despite how you might interpret the intention of the rule, that's not what the Magister (Brother Magneto, in this case) has ruled.

You can Perplex and Enhance attacks that have had their damage value reduced to 1 or 0. You can't use it to help attacks that do no damage.

The progression is like this:
1) You state your attack using Incapacitate.
2) Your damage value for the attack is reduced to 0.
3) You can interject a Perplex (or 5) in to increase your damage value.
4) You roll for the attack.
5) The attack hits or misses doing the now-Perplexed damage value and Incapacitating your opponent.

Free Actions change a lot of things. Get used to them.

I think this bears repeating:


Are E Batman and U Batman (CJ) now not the two best figures in clixdom???????:)

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by kellykc
Just also a change to add: you cannot pick up and attack with an object on the same turn (under super strength).... so Doc Samson cannot pick up and charge on same turn but has to pick up first turn, then charge next...

This was clarified this morning, and the current ruling is that you CAN still do this.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Are E Batman and U Batman (CJ) now not the two best figures in clixdom???????:)

I'd say that E Batman is probably one of the best, as Willpower also now works with Close Combat Expert. :devious:

I love my Batman. I've got 8 of him. :)

[sewerrat]

any word on when these changes take effect?

[Jay10]

I don't see why you can't use Hypersonic Speed with RCE.

The PAC states for Hypersonic Speed "This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

The PAC states for RCE "Give this character a power action. It may make a range combat attack against a single target."

Unlike Running Shot, the free range combat attack from Hypersonic Speed is not action specific.

[Darth Sabre]

Exactly JacinB!

CCE + Wp or

Incap + WP+ Enhancement/perplex or the SHield TA (in mixed games obviously)

Plus he can L/C and do that stuff to SOARING figures.....HE will be on all of my DC teams.....

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Jay10
I don't see why you can't use Hypersonic Speed with RCE.

The PAC states for Hypersonic Speed "This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

The PAC states for RCE "Give this character a power action. It may make a range combat attack against a single target."

Unlike Running Shot, the free range combat attack from Hypersonic Speed is not action specific.

That's still up for debate last I heard. Anything new on this one Darth Sabre?

[StormKnight]

So, does nobody else mind that their new multi-shot rules:
1) Hose most of the multi-shot characters in the game.
2) Change a tactical decision (more damage to one target or spread out?) to a roll and apply best result?
3) Are completely silly? (I fire off a volley of bullets - which will all magically home in on the most important target I can hit!)

[SonofVader]

Jay10 - "I don't see why you can't use Hypersonic Speed with RCE.

The PAC states for Hypersonic Speed "This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

The PAC states for RCE "Give this character a power action. It may make a range combat attack against a single target."

Unlike Running Shot, the free range combat attack from Hypersonic Speed is not action specific."


Interesting point. I wonder if there's been an official ruling on this, or if Amazo just found a way to do 5 instead of 3.

[CaptainMarvel]

Originally posted by Jay10
Let's try and make a list of the new rules. Here's what I have so far:

- Fliers can't carry fliers.

- A carried character may not be given an action on the turn it was carried.

- Damage is not reduced to 1 when making multiple range combat attacks, instead a player may "divide the attacker's damage value any way among the successfully hit targets."

- Free actions maybe be used mid-action. So, for example, you can Perplex up the damage delt from Energy Explosion.

- Characters with the Leap/Climb Superpower may make a close combat attack against Soaring units.

- Characters with the Charge Superpower are uneffected by Force Blast.

- Pulse Wave attacks ignore all Superpowers and Team Abilities on the target character(s).

- Impervious works "whenever a character recieves damage."

- Range Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert work with other Superpowers such as Hypersonic Speed and Willpower. However "no other powers may increase a character's damage value or damage delt when that character uses [Range or Close] Combat Expert."

To add to the perplex rule: It can be used any time during your opponants turn as well so now you can increase a Def value on one of your charaters.

[AruthaEvanstil]

No, The power (perplex) states it may only be used on your turn. Check the PAC.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by CaptainMarvel
To add to the perplex rule: It can be used any time during your opponants turn as well so now you can increase a Def value on one of your charaters.

No, you can't. Read the PAC. I would think that any rule that begins 'Once during your turn ...' should make it pretty clear that it can only be used during your turn. :)

[CaptainMarvel]

It says give this character a free action during thier movment.

So first you have to give the character a move action. So no RCE doesn't work with HSS.

[CaptainMarvel]

My bad jacin B

[Darth Sabre]

Jacin..I THINk that Capt Marvel is correct.

The move portion of HSS is a Free action and the attack is a power action. I could be wrong!

I don't have the rules on me and etting them off the website right now is near impossible.....

I haven't read anything official though

[JacinB]

Yeah, that would make sense to me. But, I'd heard someone trying to lawyer around it.

[Jay10]

Originally posted by CaptainMarvel
It says give this character a free action during thier movment.

So first you have to give the character a move action. So no RCE doesn't work with HSS.

That doesn't even make a drop of sense.

"This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

The RCE Superpower says dead out "make a range combat attack."

[davenappy]

Only slightly off topic amongst the rules debates:

On the Judge Anderson preview which just went up: This fig (Judge Anderson) is cool, but did anyone look at the pics of some of the characters in the Indyclix rule book? Lobster Johnson? Saurian trooper? Ashleigh? Stix? Wulf Sturnhammer? Major Maxim? Torquemada? WHO?????

And on Page 3, the diagram that outlines the combat dial states that the Indyclix set has 120 different characters...that's more than 96...are they counting LE's?

[algrim]

Overall, I like these new rules. A few things to remember;

1) Mind-Control - With the new rules you can MC someone who is pushed. That in and of itself makes the power more useful. And as far as the target not receiving a token, that's fine by me - the power is to control someone, not Incapacitate them. If You're going to take damage from a high-pointed fig for MCing them, just make sure you use good timing and do it when it hurts them the most.

2) Pacing - The new rules help establish the pacing and now allow for grounded figs to get into the battle again. Also keep in mind that going first used to be somewhat of a bad thing... in our games with the new rules it ends up being a good thing. Now you can grab your ground and stake claim to vital points on the map. This issue I could go on about for a while, but after your 4th or 5th game most people will see why I think the new rules really help the pacing of the game.

3) Slow-down/Turtling - In our test games these have been non-issues. Because the battle really uses more people than just taxi and attacker, more people seem to get involved in the actual battle, sometimes even speeding up the game (we did a few JLA/Avengers battles that went very quickly). Turtling will always be a nuisance, but with the ways the new rules are presented, they don't really help or hinder it all that much. Go head and turtle, I'll just root a stealthed ranged attacker in front of you with my entire force behind me. I'll be at your side of the map with all my support ready to go. There are a lot of counters, but most come back down to pacing. The bottom line is this - if you are currently having a problem with turtlers - the new rules probably won't change this much... if you don't really have an excessive turtling problem as it is, you'll be just fine.

4) Perplex, outwit, EE, timing, etc. - It looks like in trying to be careful with the words to clarify one thing they left themselves open for multiple interpretations with others. WizKids is working on a FAQ to clarify some of these issues. Some of the interpretations are in a rough stage right now. Most of these will turn out in ways that you are familiar with, although there may be a surprise or two. It will be weird and potentially abusive, but give it time and I am certain these issues will easily fall into place.

5) Ultimately 2 major good things will emerge from this rules set. The first, more characters will see action as the new rules helped a whole lot more people than they hurt. The second is that themed teams will be more common as the main thing hurting most of them was a lack of taxi's / pacing issue (MoE anyone?).

6) Figures more accurately represent their point costs. The expensive power of Incapacitate is great now. Pulse Wave is useful for more than just bumping up your own guys. The incredibly high point cost of Running Shot sees justification. Figures who can take pushes and keep on ticking like Hulk and Blastaar are much more useful. Overall, the game has a much more balanced feel to it.

Are there bugs? Yes. Do I agree with every single rules change? Almost, but not quite.

Be patient, playtest the rules, voice your concerns and expose the loopholes (as we need this done to fix the aforementioned bugs)... but most importantly - keep an open mind and have fun!

[Widdle Wade]

Jacinb It doesn't increase turtling or make it any more effective than what it is now. It just makes you have to think about what you're willing to risk in order to hurt your opponent. Think chess rather than checkers and you'll do alright.


ohhhhh yes it does

see before I could taxi in shooters on a turn and tehn shoot with them, giving me first shot on the camper, now cause i have to wait a turn before shooter it gives him first shot, and when its already tough enuff to hit him that dont help, yep there are ways around it, i.e. stealth, hyper, barrer but it stills gives them an advantage

cheers

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Jay10
That doesn't even make a drop of sense.

"This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

The RCE Superpower says dead out "make a range combat attack."

It makes complete sense when you figure out the rules for actions.
1) RCE is a Power Action, not an Attack action. That's why it and CCE don't work with Charge or Running Shot.
2) HSS (part 1) is a Move action and a Free Action which can be used for an attack.

You cannot use the same figure for both a Move action and a Power action in the same turn, even with HSS.

[eltigrediablo]

Does it occur to anyone else that the news rules make the game incredibly 'damage heavy' to offset the fact they've slowed it down by limiting the effectiveness of taxiing?

Incapacitates and energy explosions dealing 4 or 5 damage with perplexes and enhancements is just crazy.

What happens the first time someone plays the inevitable blizzard + 10 con artists team and pulse waves everyone for 11 points?

Yuck.

[thugit]

Exp Batman is probably the most potentially lethal character in clixdom. This looks like a job for Superman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kellykc]

As for HSS and combat experts, it says on HSS: give a close/range combat action

on combat expert, it says: give a power action.... it says nowhere in HSS you can give a power action so you can't combat expert with HSS

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by thugit
Exp Batman is probably the most potentially lethal character in clixdom. This looks like a job for Superman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steel would actually be more cost-effective than Superman.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Widdle Wade
ohhhhh yes it does

see before I could taxi in shooters on a turn and tehn shoot with them, giving me first shot on the camper, now cause i have to wait a turn before shooter it gives him first shot, and when its already tough enuff to hit him that dont help, yep there are ways around it, i.e. stealth, hyper, barrer but it stills gives them an advantage

cheers

Again, no it doesn't. It makes you have to think.

You now have to figure out where to place your figure so that he will be effective next turn. You have to figure out what you're willing to risk in order to make a potential gain. You have to think about what you're doing.

I've playtested the rules in more than a dozen games now. It doesn't make turtling any more a viable strategy than what it was before.

A simple Cosmic Boy/Avalanche combo will destroy any Invisible Girl-based turtle team at your first opportunity to attack them (ie: turn 2).

Again, it's a game that you now have to think about. Admittedly, there are a lot of people on the planet who have a bit of trouble with thinking. This is not the game for them.

It's chess now. It's not checkers. Think, strategize, adapt to your opponent, play a well-balanced team, and you'll win against nearly any one-trick pony team (ie: turtle team).

[algrim]

It still surprises me that no one has mentioned the beautiful new elevated rule. Grounded characters can now ignore hindering terrain and other grounded characters when shooting at an elevated target... which means....

If you can shoot me (Bullseye), I can shoot you back!

I love that one.

[algrim]

Excellent post JacinB. I too have playtested the new rules many times and I can't find where it slows the game down or promotes Turtling...

[CaptainMarvel]

Thank you JacinB and kellykc for clearing that up for him and backing me.

Besides how could anyone ever beat Amazo if you could?

[Jay10]

Originally posted by kellykc
As for HSS and combat experts, it says on HSS: give a close/range combat action

Check the PAC. No it doesn't.

It says the character is given a free action "to make a close combat or ranged combat attack." It doesn't say what type of action it has to be, and some power actions (like RCE), can be used to make an attack.

[CaptainMarvel]

I think we are miss taking the wording.

Although if it is the way you say Jay10 than I am now selling all my clix accept for Amazo. I can now field him in a 300 pt game and come out on top most of the time. Go Amazo!

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Jay10
Check the PAC. No it doesn't.

It says the character is given a free action "to make a close combat or ranged combat attack." It doesn't say what type of action it has to be, and some power actions (like RCE), can be used to make an attack.

No, HSS says that you can use the first part if and only if you'e already given them a Move action. If you meet that requirement, you can then give them an additional Free Action that can be either a Close- or a Ranged-Combat action.

Those are each specific action types.

RCE and CCE are both Power actions. Power actions are not Close- or Ranged-Combat actions though they may allow you to perform those actions. Power actions are Power actions, and thus not allowed in the parameters specified by HSS.

Instead of quoting bits and pieces of the PAC to make your argument, quote the entry for the relevent power and the portions of the rulebook that pertain to the various action types. You'll defeat your own argument.

[Killspree]

It doesn't 'promote' it. But it does lead to wait games. Wait until your opponent makes a mistake then capitalize. And that's where it's going to slow things up. The analogy of Chess vs. Checkers might be correct here. But heroclix was supposed to be a 'Fast Paced Game'. Turning it into a slower strategy game like Chess is completely contrary to that. And as far as tactics are concerned, every set of rules will have corresponding tactics. The new rules are basically eliminating many of the old tactics. There aren't really any 'new' tactics to be used other than the new use of the UBERPOWERFUL pulsewave. BTW, can someone tell me who has PW in DC so Bats isn't still the allpowerful monster he was before since he's basically tougher now than he was then?

[Glen Quagmire]

- Damage is not reduced to 1 when making multiple range combat attacks, instead a player may "divide the attacker's damage value any way among the successfully hit targets."

- Range Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert work with other Superpowers such as Hypersonic Speed and Willpower. However "no other powers may increase a character's damage value or damage delt when that character uses [Range or Close] Combat Expert."

Now why weren't these rulings leaked out as rumors? These are splendid decisions, making the game better. I don't know if these will help absolve the "taxied character can't attack" deal, but I suspect there would have been much less bellyaching the last few months if we knew about these.

[bobk815]

free action: An action that doesn’t come from your allotment of actions. A character or force may take
any number of free actions in a turn, but only as their powers and team abilities dictate. A free action may
be used to perform a close combat, ranged combat, move, or power action; in each case, the description
of the free action will indicate what other type of action may be used. Powers that are free actions (for
example, Enhancement, Outwit, and Perplex) may be used with any power. Free actions do not assign
action tokens to characters.

So much for can't do a power action on a free action. That would mean rce and cce as well as hss are in.

This is from the glossary.

[bobk815]

Can't edit. That last bit should read.
So much for can't do a power action on a free action. That would mean rce and cce are in for RS charge and HSS.

[CaptainMarvel]

There will always be much bellyacheing around here no matter how much they know.

[AruthaEvanstil]

Bobk

You are correct. Except that the Hypersonic POWER reads :

This character recieves one free action during its movement that may be used used to make a ranged or close combat action.

NOT a power action.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

But, bobk, the free action in HSS specifically says it can only be used for a combat action, not a power action. No CCE for you!

[CaptainMarvel]

Well I am going to Dragon Con this weekend there is bound to be someone who can tell me the offical ruling on this. If you don't already I'll let you know.

[CaptainMarvel]

excelent point Ignatz_Mouse. The rule would be eaisier to understand if they would ahve just said: During this characters move give them a free close or ranged combat action. Instead they took the long way and it sounds confusing.

[Cell]

We can finally speak about the rules without being banned... Good stuff anyways, The Power Action vs Free Action is somewhat of a ???

When you taxi a grounded character, you cannot make an action other than a Free Action, yet you can "sometimes" attack with Free Actions. So You can taxi a guy and attack, just only with Free Actions and not power actions???? :confused:

My other ???, is regarding the differences on the Crusade TA and normal Knockback rules. What i understand is normal Knockback, is Damage dealt, not Damage Value on the Clix, while the Crusade TA Ability is simply Damage on the clix?

Personally i dont like these rules. Especially if you can HSS Amazo into range(10) for 5 Dmg and then HSS back... Uggly stuff

[JacinB]

Originally posted by bobk815
Can't edit. That last bit should read.
So much for can't do a power action on a free action. That would mean rce and cce are in for RS charge and HSS.

Problem is, HSS istelf specifies that the free action can only be used to make a Close- or Ranged-Combat attack.

RCE and CCE are both Power actions. Power actions are not attacks, regardless of whether or not they allow you to attack.

There is a distinction that you're ignoring when asking this question.

[themark37]

Originally posted by Jay10
.- Pulse Wave attacks ignore all Superpowers and Team Abilities on the target character(s).

Sorry Jay10, Pulse Wave ignores all Superpowers and Team abilities, including your own, not just the to target character(s) with in range of the pulse wave.

[FoxInStocks]

What's this about Perplex now being usable in the middle of an action, i.e. you can now perplex up EE or INCP. I REALLY like the sound of that, but I haven't found anywere in the rules/PAC that state this. Where's this info coming from?

Pardon me if I missed it...these new rules and wording has got me really confused...and just as I finally had a solid grasp on the ORIGINAL rules... :ermm:

[themark37]

Originally posted by kellykc
Just also a change to add: you cannot pick up and attack with an object on the same turn (under super strength).... so Doc Samson cannot pick up and charge on same turn but has to pick up first turn, then charge next...

Yes you can.

Charge is a Power action so you can pick it up. It allows you to make a close combat atack as a Free Action. This has already been ruled on by both DrG and Brother_Magneto.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by FoxInStocks
What's this about Perplex now being usable in the middle of an action, i.e. you can now perplex up EE or INCP. I REALLY like the sound of that, but I haven't found anywere in the rules/PAC that state this. Where's this info coming from?

Pardon me if I missed it...these new rules and wording has got me really confused...and just as I finally had a solid grasp on the ORIGINAL rules... :ermm:

Perplex, Enhancement, and Outwit are now Free Actions. Free Actions can be used at any time. Thus, they can be used after your Damage Value has been reduced for Incapacitate or Energy Explosion to increase the damage prior to the actual attack being made and damage being dealt.

[Jay10]

Originally posted by AruthaEvanstil
Bobk

You are correct. Except that the Hypersonic POWER reads:

This character recieves one free action during its movement that may be used used to make a ranged or close combat action.

No, it doesn't. It reads:

"This character recieves one free action during it's movement that it may use to make a close combat or range combat attack."

[wint3rmut3]

Pulse Wave will now be cool. In comics Human Torch's Nova Flame was his killing move, now it actually has some punch. Imagine if Silver Surfer has HSS or Running Shot w/ Pulse Wave. With HSS he'd just get w/in PW range, blast away the huddled turtles and zoom out again.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by JacinB
Problem is, HSS istelf specifies that the free action can only be used to make a Close- or Ranged-Combat attack.

RCE and CCE are both Power actions. Power actions are not attacks, regardless of whether or not they allow you to attack.

There is a distinction that you're ignoring when asking this question.

JacinB> I don't understand what they are having problems with here. Your explanation is well laid out, and it explains it all right there.

People read the PAC, and then go to the glossary for clarifications......read them carefully...it is for the most part self-explanatory.....

[Greenandgold]

Who cares about Batman? Can't I just perplex up my pulsewave and blast him out of the water? It looks like pulsewave ignores stealth (power and team ability).

[CaptainMarvel]

So Jay10 I am curious are we all yelling at each other about a rule we don't like or are for Amazo being able to take out entire teams by him self. Oh just had a thought. If you can use the two together think about.........dunnn! Silver Surfer.

[Rushe]

Does the release of these rules have anything to do with them being on Decktech.net?

[Heretic]

Originally posted by The Vision
You've still got to roll over an 18 to hit anybody in the turtle... Since pulse wave ignores all powers in range (1/2 actual range) you only need an 18 to hit IG. The rest are hit w/ their perspective defences.

[revvy]

Hrm ..if pulsewave ignores all team abilities and powers ...does this mean you also ignore the defend power...

So your targeting a rookie invis girl/human torch combo ...do you now have to hit a defense of like 13 for the torch instead of the 20 (for the 18 defend and de energy shield?

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
Who cares about Batman? Can't I just perplex up my pulsewave and blast him out of the water? It looks like pulsewave ignores stealth (power and team ability).

Not if PW is outwitted, you can't ;) Also, if I'm incapping you and dealing damage (With perplex, Enhancement, or SHIELD TA) your PW clicks will be gone, and you will be rendered usless. That will be about the time that I bring Bats in to CCE with Willpower to death.......

[themark37]

Originally posted by Heretic
Since pulse wave ignores all powers in range (1/2 actual range) you only need an 18 to hit IG. The rest are hit w/ their perspective defences.

Isn't Pulse Wave insane now.

[mindspa24]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
Who cares about Batman? Can't I just perplex up my pulsewave and blast him out of the water? It looks like pulsewave ignores stealth (power and team ability).

Batman has a range of 6 which means you would have to perplex up someone with PW by 2 making there PW range a 6. Assuming Batman hasn't already moved to within his 6, outwitted your defense and smacked you for 3 clicks. Oh and if its the U Batman maybe he would have flown in a perplexer of his own to up it to 4 clix of damage.

[Widdle Wade]

jacinb simple Cosmic Boy/Avalanche combo will destroy any Invisible Girl-based turtle team at your first opportunity to attack them (ie: turn 2).



ummmm that could work, but not always
most people would jsut use their turn to outwit the pulsewave..... or throw up smoke clouds (stops the running shot) or barriers(same as smoke)
not only that but pulse wave only does 1 damage... so its no big deal, (maybe u can perplex it, still unclear there, but that takes more stuff to do ect...)

yes i agree its like chess, and yes i totally agree that it is still beatable, and im not even complaining, I did not find turtle teams a problem before

all im saying is that a proper turtle team will have more advantages then it used to

is still still beatable... ummm yes
it most certainly is

most easily by stealth,

all im saying is that because people can't taxi in and shoot at it on, one turn it improves in that area, hence giving it an advantage there

it still has disadvantages, liek against stealth, EE and now even more so Pulsewave

i take it u r accusing me of not thinking this out form teh attackers point of view... whereas i think i have, and maybe u havnt given teh turtle person's IQ enuff credit

it is an advantage, still beatable but in that area an advantage
whereas teh pulsewave rules give it a certain disadvantage

hope that clarifies
cheers

[themark37]

Originally posted by revvy
Hrm ..if pulsewave ignores all team abilities and powers ...does this mean you also ignore the defend power...

So your targeting a rookie invis girl/human torch combo ...do you now have to hit a defense of like 13 for the torch instead of the 20 (for the 18 defend and de energy shield?

Defend is a Superpower so it will be ignored just like Human Torches ES/D.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
Who cares about Batman? Can't I just perplex up my pulsewave and blast him out of the water? It looks like pulsewave ignores stealth (power and team ability).

Yes, but who in DC has Pulse Wave and can you figure out a way to get them into range of Batman before he can Outwit it? :)

[Greenandgold]

Originally posted by JacinB
Yes, but who in DC has Pulse Wave and can you figure out a way to get them into range of Batman before he can Outwit it? :)

The answer of course would be no one in DC has pulsewave, but in mixed games telekinesis should do the trick.

[mindspa24]

Can SHIELD team ability still be used to up the damage on RCE? It's not a "power", it's a team ability.

[Mister_X_]

Am I the only one who has seen this or cares?

No one has commented so now I'm questionning whether
its a change or not.

In the flying section, under hovering it reads "A hovering character may ignore the effects of opposing characters or
hindering terrain on movement"

We've always before played that hovering characters still had to deal with opposing characters stopping their movement when they become adjacent. This is a major change and no one has any reaction to it?

Just curious if I am misinterpreting (the new or old rules :)

[Heretic]

Originally posted by JacinB
Yes, but he'd have to divide that 4 damage among the targets hit. So, he'd still only be doing 4 clix total, not four clix to each of his targets.

In the past, he'd've been able to hit each person for 4. Now, he can hit one for 2, and two for 1 for a total of 4. Get it? You are getting EE and multi target attack mixed up. It has already been ruled that there is no change in the ee w/ multi target from the former rules. You cannot perplex EE as before but it can be enhanced or Shield TAed.

[algrim]

As was just pointed out, flyers no longer need to stop when moving past opposing figures, but they DO need to roll break-away if they start their movement adjacent to an enemy... which I like. It makes good sense and helps give flyers something they didn't have before - partial Leap/Climb. Very interesting... I really like the role flyers have now.

And of course, elevated sniping has been balanced out as well - which I love...

[DaLuvster89]

My head just exploded.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Mister_X_
Am I the only one who has seen this or cares?

No one has commented so now I'm questionning whether
its a change or not.

In the flying section, under hovering it reads "A hovering character may ignore the effects of opposing characters or
hindering terrain on movement"

We've always before played that hovering characters still had to deal with opposing characters stopping their movement when they become adjacent. This is a major change and no one has any reaction to it?

Just curious if I am misinterpreting (the new or old rules :)

Ok, hovering charcters only have to roll for breakaway if the begin a turn adjacent to an opposing figure.

Otherwise, that can move freely past opposing figures without being forced to stop. Think of flying as Leap/climb in this regard.

I think it's one of the GOOD changes.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Mister_X_
Am I the only one who has seen this or cares?

No one has commented so now I'm questionning whether
its a change or not.

In the flying section, under hovering it reads "A hovering character may ignore the effects of opposing characters or
hindering terrain on movement"

We've always before played that hovering characters still had to deal with opposing characters stopping their movement when they become adjacent. This is a major change and no one has any reaction to it?

Just curious if I am misinterpreting (the new or old rules :)

Just remember, they can move past (or 'over') an opposing character without having to stop. But, they still have to breakaway as normal if they start their turn in base contact with an enemy.

[Greenandgold]

We need a ninja to come in here and flip out and cut everyone's head off right about now! That would be totally sweet and you know what I mean by that.

[Emanon]

Originally posted by Mister_X_
Am I the only one who has seen this or cares?

No one has commented so now I'm questionning whether
its a change or not.

In the flying section, under hovering it reads "A hovering character may ignore the effects of opposing characters or
hindering terrain on movement"

We've always before played that hovering characters still had to deal with opposing characters stopping their movement when they become adjacent. This is a major change and no one has any reaction to it?

Just curious if I am misinterpreting (the new or old rules :)

This is another nice change to the rules. What this means is that you can move through opposing characters, but the next part of the rules also state that a hovering character still has to break away.

So basically you can ignore people when your moving, but once you stop, you have to break away like usual. I think this really makes sense and it helps add a little back to hovering characters now that they cannot be carried.

[Mister_X_]

I agree its a good change :) I was just checking if it was a change afterall or just my imagination since no one had been talking about it. It really changes flying characters. Its nice to see them add something to flyers given that they can no longer be taxied.

I do wonder though how useful Soaring mode is now... considering moving past enemies was its main use for me.

[Emanon]

I guess we are all actively reading here because in the time it took me to type my last response, 3 other people said the same thing! lol

[Andyh]

Originally posted by Jay10
Let's try and make a list of the new rules. Here's what I have so far:
...
- A carried character may not be given an action on the turn it was carried.


An oversimplification - they are permitted "Free Actions" ... and as I read the rules the "Top Cow" (/Avengers/etc) team ability provides a free action.

Andy

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Heretic
You are getting EE and multi target attack mixed up. It has already been ruled that there is no change in the ee w/ multi target from the former rules. You cannot perplex EE as before but it can be enhanced or Shield TAed.

While you are correct about their being a difference between EE and multi-target attacks, you are incorrect about Perplexing EE damage-you can under the new rules Enhance/Perplex/and Shield TA it! It's in the WK Judegs forums right now......

originally posted by Brother_Magneto 0 damage means the damage can be perplexed/enhanced. So does 1 damage, in the case of Energy Explosion.

Free actions may be used in the middle of other actions, although with a couple of restrictions.

[mindspa24]

Can SHIELD team ability still be used to up the damage on RCE? It's not a "power", it's a team ability.

[Inbetweener]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
We need a ninja to come in here and flip out and cut everyone's head off right about now! That would be totally sweet and you know what I mean by that.

Keep telling them truth man...Sooo sweet...

These rules are great and the judges are doing a great job explaining them. I'm still confused and feel like comitting sepukku but I'll manage and let them settle in eventually. I'm already planning a team around Kang!!!

[themark37]

Originally posted by mindspa24
Can SHIELD team ability still be used to up the damage on RCE? It's not a "power", it's a team ability.

Yes that is still the same.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by mindspa24
Can SHIELD team ability still be used to up the damage on RCE? It's not a "power", it's a team ability.

There has ben no change to this, that we have been made aware of.

People, please realize that an FAQ will be made available soon....and alot of the points you bring up will hopefully be addresses there.

I think whether or not we agree/disagree on the impact that hese rules have on the gamme, one thing that remains constant is that this is just as new to us as judges as it is to you as players. Many of the points that you have brought up we have been debating and discussing in the judges forum since these rules were made available to us.

So I think it's safe to say, that while confusion is en masse, we will do our best to help you understand the rules changes, represent your points on the judges forum, and have alot of advil and prozac readily available for ourselves-as we become acquainted with them.

Also remeber that these rules will become tournament effective AFTER Indy Heroclix is released..so there is time for FAQ tweaks between now and then.


Now back to the fray! :)

[CaptainMarvel]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
We need a ninja to come in here and flip out and cut everyone's head off right about now! That would be totally sweet and you know what I mean by that.

Yes we know what you mean by that mainly because you wont stop telling us.:rolleyes:

[kellykc]

So can anyone tell me why energy explosion/multitarget is like the old rules even though multitarget has changed?

[bear42]

What exactly is a 'free action'?

From Carrying other characters:
"A carried character does not recieve an action token for being carried, but may not be given an action (other than a FREE ACTION) until the beginning of the next turn"

From Mind Control:
"...Assign each target one FREE ACTION..."

Free Action from the glossary:
"An action that doesn't come from your allotment of actions. A character or force may take any number of free actions in a turn, but only as their powers and team abilities dictate. A free action may be used to perform close combat, ranged combat, move or power action...Free actions do not assign action tokens to characters."

Now, the general consensus has been that taxied characters can't take an action except for a free action(assumed to be outwit, perplex,etc). That's fine, but why does Mind Control refer to a free action as well. It seems that the Mind Control 'free action' refers to the fact that you don't have to use one of your action allotments for the action. The taxi 'free action' seems to refer to specifically using a power such as outwit or perplex.

Does anyone have a WizKids-English dictionary and understand this 'free action' stuff?

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by kellykc
So can anyone tell me why energy explosion/multitarget is like the old rules even though multitarget has changed?

I think because Mulit-target attacks no longer reduce damage to 1 (since you can split it) where as EE reduces to 1, and can then be increased (so that it retains it's splash effect). I'm not sure that it makes sense that way, but it did when I started typing! :p

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by bear42
What exactly is a 'free action'?

From Carrying other characters:
"A carried character does not recieve an action token for being carried, but may not be given an action (other than a FREE ACTION) until the beginning of the next turn"

From Mind Control:
"...Assign each target one FREE ACTION..."

Free Action from the glossary:
"An action that doesn't come from your allotment of actions. A character or force may take any number of free actions in a turn, but only as their powers and team abilities dictate. A free action may be used to perform close combat, ranged combat, move or power action...Free actions do not assign action tokens to characters."

Now, the general consensus has been that taxied characters can't take an action except for a free action(assumed to be outwit, perplex,etc). That's fine, but why does Mind Control refer to a free action as well. It seems that the Mind Control 'free action' refers to the fact that you don't have to use one of your action allotments for the action. The taxi 'free action' seems to refer to specifically using a power such as outwit or perplex.

Does anyone have a WizKids-English dictionary and understand this 'free action' stuff?

No, and it's still a bit confusing to us, in certain instances. But in regards to MC


it's stating that the MC figure's action does not count against your allotment of actions (same as before just different wording).

[Miracleman]

What happens with a 2 arrow multi-attacker with 1 damage. Can you give both targets 1/2 damage (rounding up to 1 each)?

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Miracleman
What happens with a 2 arrow multi-attacker with 1 damage. Can you give both targets 1/2 damage (rounding up to 1 each)?
No. The instance you describe is specifically mentioned as a no-no.

I beleiev that there has been no definitive decision regarding this ruling.....I could be wrong though.

[bear42]

Darth Sabre,

On MC, do you think that 'same as before just different wording' also means that the MCd figure still gets an action token, or do you think that MCd figures no longer recieve action tokens because it is being called a 'free action'?

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by bear42
Darth Sabre,

On MC, do you think that 'same as before just different wording' also means that the MCd figure still gets an action token, or do you think that MCd figures no longer recieve action tokens because it is being called a 'free action'?

If you notice, the new PAC does not mention placing a token on the MC'ed fig after they have completed their action.

So what it means I MC your figure , I have then attack another of your figs. This does not count against my 3 (in a 300 pt game) actions, and your figure is not given an action token, as before (incapacitated), for that action. So you can use them on the next turn, or I can continously MC them (Even if you pushed them).

That is what it means......

[Ignatz_Mouse]

It's not quite an even trade, but if team abilities aren't optional, if you can't push an MC-ed figure, at least you can still get them to hit a mystic.

[PsychoDBoy]

Question about the 2000ad TA: If you target someone with a wildcard team ability such as paranormal research, spidey, n such, can you attack them even if they're using a different TA, and vice versa, if target say danger girl, and a wildcard is declared dangergirl, would i get the +1 since theyre technically a danger girl, or does it go for the printed ta the entire time?

[Greenandgold]

Help.

How can you perplex damage up in the middle of an attack (or action) when the rules quite clearly state:

"You must resolve one action before choosing the next action (if you have more than one action available)."

[RadicalX]

Here's how I explained Mind Control as it works now on another thread, using only wording from the rules and the PAC:


Give this character a power action. It may make a close combat or ranged combat attack. A successful attack does no damage; instead, the target or targets become friendly to your force and opposing to your opponent's force. Assign each target one free action(An action that doesn't come from your allotment of actions. A free action may be used to perform a close combat, ranged combat, move, or power action. Free actions do not assign action tokens to characters.) Immediately upon resolving its action, each target becomes and opposing character to you and friendly to its owner's force. This character takes 1 damage for each 100 points of the target' combined point value. If this characer has a range value of 0, treat its range value as 4 when using this power. This range cannot be further modified.


As for the carried figures, they are not given a free action when they are put down, but can use a free action if they already have one (such as Outwit, Perplex, etc).

Good for ya? =)

If not, I'll totally FLIP OUT!!! and make your head explode by wiggling my pinky. I am one TOTALLY SWEET ninja! And by SWEET, I mean COMPLETELY AWESOME!

I'm SO PUMPED UP about the new rules!!!

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
Help.

How can you perplex damage up in the middle of an attack (or action) when the rules quite clearly state:

"You must resolve one action before choosing the next action (if you have more than one action available)."

Because Perplex is a Free Action, which can be assigned at any point in the game(within the terms of the free power). The rules for a power supercede the rulebook.

[Darkskaven]

About the PW power :

First, the use of this power always reduce by half the range. So if there's only one target available in this reduced range, the effetcs are quite the same than Psychic Blast. But PW is not the same thing than Psychic Blast : this last one use the full-range capacity of the attacker (and allows multi-targets attacks that I'm not sure PW allows).

Second, the new rules says that the use of PW ignores all the powers and team abilities of the targets. The trick is that : does in this case "ignores" means "negates" ? If so, you can't enhance or use Shield Team ability or even Hydra Team ability (and perplex if the perplexer is within the range of the PW) to boost the PW, simply because the use of the power will prevent the use (and the effects) of these powers/ Team abilities.
In the same way, the character using PW can't increase his AV with the help of a Sinister Syndicate ally (or Batman Ennemy) because the Team Ability of his ally will be inactive when he uses the PW.

I'm sure there will be other cases and I think this should be clarified at some points in a FAQ to avoid strange situations during the games.

[kellykc]

Can grounded characters now always range combat adjacent hovering units regardless of whether there is a grounded enemy beside them? (because in hovering section of rules, it says they can attack and be attacked by range combat even if they are adjacent)

[RadicalX]

Originally posted by Darth Sabre
Because Perplex is a Free Action, which can be assigned at any point in the game(within the terms of the free power). The rules for a power supercede the rulebook.

But a free action is still an action, and the current action must be resolved before any new actions. Sure you can do it at any time, as long as it's not in the middle of another action.

I quote:

You must resolve one action before choosing the next action if you have more than one action available). You may never give more than one action (other than a free action) per turn to any character on your force.


A free action is an action, albeit one that does not assign a token. But it is an action, and therefore cannot be used until the current action is resolved.

[Darkskaven]

About enhancement (a free action) : if this power can be used at any time during an action, does this means that the power can be used to boost the damages twice or more?

Example : my character shoots with an ally with the enhancement power adjacent to him. I declare that the fig enhance the ranged attack. I roll the attack. It hits. Now I declare again that the fig enhance the range attack a second time. If this is (enhancement) a free action not limited to one use per turn and that free actions can interrupt an action in the middle of its resolution, I think this can be done (I hope not because it's quite weird and possibly game-breaking!).

Anyone has an idea about this ?

[vaders sabre]

I like the new rules!

[vaders sabre]

I know I'm new but can you now use RCE and RS?
Thanks.

[themark37]

Originally posted by Darkskaven
About the PW power :

First, the use of this power always reduce by half the range. So if there's only one target available in this reduced range, the effetcs are quite the same than Psychic Blast. But PW is not the same thing than Psychic Blast : this last one use the full-range capacity of the attacker (and allows multi-targets attacks that I'm not sure PW allows).

Second, the new rules says that the use of PW ignores all the powers and team abilities of the targets. The trick is that : does in this case "ignores" means "negates" ? If so, you can't enhance or use Shield Team ability or even Hydra Team ability (and perplex if the perplexer is within the range of the PW) to boost the PW, simply because the use of the power will prevent the use (and the effects) of these powers/ Team abilities.
In the same way, the character using PW can't increase his AV with the help of a Sinister Syndicate ally (or Batman Ennemy) because the Team Ability of his ally will be inactive when he uses the PW.

I'm sure there will be other cases and I think this should be clarified at some points in a FAQ to avoid strange situations during the games.

If there is only one figure in the reduced range it only allows for the normal damage to be done. It would not give you your full range and as always it does not allow for multi-targets.

Pulse Wave is only like Psychic Blast in that it ignores Damage reducing powers. Other then that they are totaly seperate powers.

Pulse Wave ignores any Superpowers or Team Abilities, as if the didn't even have them. This goes for both your figures and theirs. So no the Synister Syndicate/Batman Enemy TA's, Sheild/Hydra/PD TA's and enhancement will not work. Although if you have a perplexer our of the range of the Pulse Wave you could Perplex the figure.

[themark37]

Originally posted by vaders sabre
I know I'm new but can you now use RCE and RS?
Thanks.


No and here is why:

RCE is a Power Action, not an Attack action. That's why it and CCE don't work with Charge or Running Shot.

[Thunderbolts]

Regarding the multiple targets and damage division thing.... how does a character like Boomerang divide 1 damage between three targets? :(

For that matter, does RCE work with multitarget now?

[hourman]

Originally posted by IronFistDK
Ahh...so now the new rules say that you do your total damage when attacking multiple ranged targets, with or without EE, (as opposed to reducing it to one, like before) but divide it among the hit figs as you choose? Interesting...

What about Hawkeye? Doesn't he get screwed even worse now?

[Gacy's Clown]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Get ready for perplex mid-action, outwit mid-action, and a loss of structure to the game.

I've supported the rules up until the point where they took the very structure of the game as we know it, and threw it out the window. Hell, this game might as well not even be turn based now! Garbage, absolute garbage.

Rich

I'll second that.:disappoin

[Psylockeslover]

There is an 'open' for an interpretation that Outwit and Perplex will not be able to be used mid-action.

I say wait for the FAQ on this....

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Psylockeslover
There is an 'open' for an interpretation that Outwit and Perplex will not be able to be used mid-action.

I say wait for the FAQ on this....

There is no open for interpretation. this has already been answered by Brother_Magneto-and the answer is YES, you can use those powers in mid action. EX

V Flash can run up to an opposing fig, out wit his defensive ability and then attack.

Darkskaven> Re: Enhancement:

I'm not sure of your question, but you have always been able to use enhancement multiple times per turn. Case in point

I have three figures capable of doing ranged attacks, and Psylocke is right behind them-When they each attack, Psylocke can enhance each of their attacks. There is no mention in the old PAC that you can only do this once per turn, and there is no mention of that in the Indy PAC.

[Gacy's Clown]

Originally posted by JacinB
It's chess now. It's not checkers.

If I wanted to play chess or even checkers, I'd play CHESS OR CHECKERS!!!!!

[GianSingir]

Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
If I wanted to play chess or even checkers, I'd play CHESS OR CHECKERS!!!!!

Why, that's some strange logic! Never thought of it that way...

[Morskittar]

Originally posted by Gacy's Clown
If I wanted to play chess or even checkers, I'd play CHESS OR CHECKERS!!!!!


Ahh, but what if you don't want to play Chess, or even Checkers, but something *like* Chess or Checkers that's also a loose representation of previously enjoyed scenarios utilizing licensed characters from monthly graphic magazines?!?

[RadicalX]

Oh, and for dividing damage? The rulebook says always round up. So, if Boomerang has 3 lightning bolts, and only 1 damage, he does 1/3 on each attack, which is rounded up to 1. =)

[DarkCrisis]

You can only *activate* one character at a time. To attempt to Perplex an EE in NOT possible as you would have to *activate* 2 characters at the same time.

I think the rule implies that a lone fig (like Flash) can run up-outwit-then attack.

[Kaitouace]

Originally posted by RadicalX