Dear Wizkids:

[Spider_Cide]

Dear WizKids:

I have been a fan of this game since it's birth. I have enjoyed numerous tournament victories, loses and fun play. As the newest set, Critical Mass, enjoys it's first full week of being released to the mass populace, I have begun to feel as though the game is starting to lose the feel of a game and gained the feeling of just a product that you just throw on the shelves.

I don't want to sound like one of the many complainers on this site *nothing against you guys/gals*, but I really feel as though your company and designers (both of the figures/stats and general development) have lost the interest that you seemed to posses this time last year. Allow my to explain:

Tournaments and prizes

Generally, a person can go to a tournament these days and have roughly a good time. The tournaments have grown extremely competitive. Now, this isn't too bad of a thing for those of us who have been playing this game for a long time and invested a lot (time and money) into it. But it does steer away those who are considered "newbies". A young boy or girl who just wants to play a fun X-Men or Avenger team and are still trying to learn the rules, are going to have a hard time facing a veteran player playing a Hooker-Bomb Special . This style only turns away new players, thus making your company lose money.

Now, why is the reasoning behind this? The lack of a second place prize. Now, you're probably thinking that 1 less prize isn't a big deal. But many fellowship prizes are rigged, so trying for that is usually out of the question. The second place prize was removed because of the company wanting to level out Mage Knight/Mech Warriors with HeroClix. Well, if that is the case, then why do we not have a ranking? With a lack of prizes and nothing to show your standings in the game, why bother at times?

Judges and Judge-Support

This one doesn't bother many, I'm sure, but then again it does bother others. How is it fair that the players have to play for 2nd-rate LEs, and work our hardest to win those, while a judge (who only sits there and does nothing) receives a Bruce Banner or Betsy Braddock or Hank MaCoy? I'm sure that many of the judges on this site do more than what just sit around, but what about those that do?

I am not the best player at my venue. I come in 2nd or 3rd as far as rank is concerned. But many of the players ask me questions about rules and the like constantly. Why? Because I know more than the judge! So while the judge has a beautiful Bruce Banner...I'm up to my neck in Thomas Oscar Morrows and Mary Walkers. The judge recruitment system currently in effect is flawed to say the least.

*Please note, I'm not saying all judges are this way. I know of many judges that go beyond the call of duty when it comes to a weekly or bi-weekly tournament*

Figure Quality

Set after set, we see wonderfully sculpted pieces of plastic. These figs are wonderfully crafted, painted and show-place pieces. But for every 1 wonderful piece, there are 5 poorly done ones; due to sculpt or paint jobs. You sell a wonderful product, and the merchandise should reflect that. So often than not, that isn't the case. I am 95% positive that no one would mind paying $2-3 more per box, as long as the figure qualities are superb.

Lateness in shipments or the lack there of (including boosters and send-away LEs)

There have been many times I've walked into my local comic shop, freshly cashed check in wallet, ready to purchase a vast quantity of HeroClix. Then come to find out, there are none (most notably with CM and INDY) because the distributors haven't gotten any in. So, I spend that money on other unrelated products.

Now, I'm unaware if the lateness is due to Holidays or because the shipment from China hasn't came in yet, but this isn't very good business. Aren't there any American based manufactures that can get the contract to produce the figures (again, back to Figure Quality ) and insure their arrival surely and promptly?

Stats

This is a problem that is dealt with by a personal view level, meaning that this matters to people in different ways. An Example: Archangel (E). This figure is said to be the 4 Horsemen version. Now, while his sculpt is just a normal Angel, that is not the point. His point value and stats do not in any way reflect the Archangel of the Apocalpyse. That Archangel would have been better served as an Unique, taking the place of the poorly done Adam Warlock (or "Him" as many players have bit their lip to call him).

Then, other stats are just confusing or uncalled for. Why is it that the (R) Mole Man does a 3 damage for a decent time, while the "smart" Hulk (with those huge guns) can do 2 for most of the dial...only to giant Battle Fury on his best clix, making his 8'' Range useless?

In Closing....

There are many problems that any one player/collector/customer can state in one sitting. And the more that do and will come forward only bring with him/her a longer list, basically because everyone views these problems as either minor or with rose-tinted glasses. Myself, I have only stated major problems that I feel are slowing down the advancement of a game that is truly original and inventive with every new set. But how long can a game go with new figures that are not only uncreative/lack design in sculpt, but are also just recycled stats from previous sets (Marrow *all versions* looks to be the ugly step-sister of INDY Clix).

As a company, it is your job to make money first, please the consumer second. But how long do you honestly think the lack of attention to the consumer's wants will continue before the lack of profit becomes as clear as the sun setting over the Pacific Ocean in the middle of June?

Thank you for your time,

Timothy "Spider_Cide" Smith

[JacinB]

Just wanted to respond to one question you ask here:

Originally posted by Spider_Cide
Then, other stats are just confusing or uncalled for. Why is it that the (R) Mole Man does a 3 damage for a decent time, while the "smart" Hulk (with those huge guns) can do 2 for most of the dial...only to giant Battle Fury on his best clix, making his 8'' Range useless?


Rookie Mole Man only has 3 damage on his first click, and he's only got a 4" range. That's not exactly what I would call a 'decent time', nor is he likely to get the chance to use it very often.

"Smart" Hulk getting Battle Fury on his middle dial Clix makes sense. Think of it this way: When Hulk gets angered, he gets stronger. However, getting stronger and being able to do more damage are great ... but he can't do it from range. In other words, his massive guns won't shoot more powerful missiles just because he gets mad.

Giving him Battle Fury is just one way to represent him 'dropping his guns' for a moment or two to beat down his opponents before regaining his senses and picking the guns back up ...

As for why he does 2 damage in some places on his dial? He's "Smart" Hulk. He's not the typical "HULK SMASH!" Hulk, and is more capable of controlling his rage (not completely, mind you). He doesn't want to kill people, so he "pulls his punches" a bit ...

In that way, he's kind of like the REV/LE Supermen. :)

Hope that helps out a bit. Someone else can address your other comments. :)

[kellykc]

Hi,

I would like to respond to this thread on my views:

Tournament: firstly, Wizkids does not have to provide any prize support, and I'm sure they do so to attract more buyers (prizes = attract). I agree that the games can become quite competitive, and according to me, the solution is to eliminate prize support (and the competitiveness/"cheaper" teams will decrease). Therefore, the happy medium is one prize which is what wizkids is doing. I do not believe that Wizkids will get more buyers (enough to cover the costs of another free figure) if they provide more prize support (one of the reasons for one prize).


Judges: The judges spend their time to run the games; they cannot play. Since they cannot play in the games and they spend their free time for others, I have no problems with them getting prizes/LEs. I do agree that some of the judges I have seen should know the rules much better, but that's where players like you and I should enlighten them so that they can do a better job.

Figure Quality: I'm sure wizkids did their study and found the best way to get profit. I'm sure that increasing the box prices by $2-3 will decrease a number of buyers (me included).

Lateness: The prizes are free.... I play tournaments for the fun and for the prizes.... the prizes should be a bonus, not the only reason why one enters tournaments.

Stats: Everybody has their own views of how figures should be seen... my views will not agree with yours and as a result, there will always be someone unhappy with the figs. In fact, I hear that there will be new powers in the upcoming sets and that should make the game more interesting.

Closing: Customers are selfish; they only want to please themselves. Wizkids does not have to offer any prize support or run tournaments. When they feel that heroclix is no longer profitable, they will not produce figures. That is life... nothing is forever.

I thought do agree that a lot of judges need to know the rules better.

Kelly

[Spider_Cide]

My fault, I have one hell of a misprinted Mole Man then...lol. He has 3 for 4 clixs. Please forget that example.

I'm sorry, I cannot buy the "pulling punches" theory. I can see them do that to thugs and what not. "smart" or not...would he pull his punches going up against Ultron or Superman?

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide

Tournaments and prizes

But it does steer away those who are considered "newbies". A young boy or girl who just wants to play a fun X-Men or Avenger team and are still trying to learn the rules, are going to have a hard time facing a veteran player playing a Hooker-Bomb Special . This style only turns away new players, thus making your company lose money.

Wizkids did not design the Hooker-Bomb Special so I don't think complaining to them about it will help at all. There is no way to deal with the tactics and teams a player may play. Tornaments are supposed to be more competitive than a friendly pick-up game. A newbie can always play with his friends at home and does not HAVE to play in tournaments.

[Puuka]

Also. as a Judge, and I have seen this, Attendance can be based on how well the Judge runs his event and the attendance dictates the level of LE we get. If you are a carpy Judge, you will get less attendance (Assuming that there are choices for events) less attendance will mean lower level LE's. If you are a good Judge (know the rules, fair in judgement, More people will come to the events, you get better LE's, if your a really good Judge and you get doubles of LE's or LE's you don't want, you can then offer them up for extra prizes, try to draw in a lot of people and get even better LE's... and so on, and so on.

[Spider_Cide]

I was using the "Hooker Bomb" purely as an example. I was using this tactic as an example simply because, out of the various tournaments I attend, this is the most common strategy used. And I have seen players walk in, sign up, see the teams, then leave because of it.

I have talked to many respectable judges and they have told me attendance as nothing to do with the LEs given out. My favorite venue has seen any where from 15-20 players on a weekly basis since the Cosmic Justice Marquee, and we continue to recieve horrible LEs. In the past month, I've won 4 Mary Walkers.

I agree that Judges do contribute a portion of their time for free. It is great that a judge recieves a few LEs as payment for their time. That is perfect and as it should be. I just don't see how 4 hours of time spent sitting and spouting out rules (sometimes not even the right rules) justifies 2 Bruce Banner and a Lenard Sampson LEs while everyone else has to play for the same LEs they played for 2 weeks back and have multiple copies of already.

I have yet to play in a tournament with a late prize support. My passage was in refrence to late shipments of boosters and the LEs that we send away for. Yes, the prizes are free, but not the PSM Hulk or "Beserker" Wolverine.

[Snork]

Spider_Cide, I agree entirely.

I'd like to add it would be nice for Wizkids to give the players a lot more input into the pieces in each set, after all, we're the ones who will be using them.

But I still love the game. So I'll try to enjoy what we've got, and be glad I can play such a great game.
:classic:

[Spider_Cide]

I love this game as well, and I don't like to complain. I just feel that certain modifications to the overall progess would be better on the larger scale.

Yes, prizes are free. But what about those players who have to pay to play in the tournaments? I spent, from the very first Infinity Challenge tournament until this past Febuary, playing at a venue who charged anywhere from $3 to $10 every tournament. I didn't mind it. But I grew tired of the one-sided judge calls and moved onto a venue in which the tournamnts were free + has a fair and just judge. Shortly afterwards, the prizes were reduced to 2 per tourny and the repetiveness in the LEs seen began to grow. But some players aren't lucky enough to live near a venue that has tournaments for free for the free prizes. I'm not saying that every tournamnt should host a LV. 5 or 6 every week, far from it. But why can't we get alittle something extra every few tournaments?

[Nursenut]

Nice letter Spider_cide, well written. Although I don't agree with some of your points, I believe you articulated them well without resorting to: "this sucks". Its refreshing to read an intelligent dissent.

[Spider_Cide]

Thank you, Nursenut.

In the past, I have written a handful of letters discussing my feelings/views about the game that has sadly narrowed down to "This sucks!" and "You losers!". I have just begun to see that it is much more effective to try to get your points across in a civilized and educated ways. It is pointless, especially online, to break down to a fighting level.

[Snork]

Yeah, your post was well thought out, polite, and analytical. Very well written, you did a good job.

Certainly better than the guy who said he'd like to beat the #### out of Jon L over the figures being underpowered. :p

[Spider_Cide]

LoL.

John L. has done a great job, so has Grubb and the rest of the crew. While there have been figs that are so far away from their comic counterparts, there have been quite a few right on the money. A huge wish of mine, though, is that they would look into the character's history and make-up to make the figures. Granted, the newest Spider-Man is so very close to what the players/fans want, but he does have 2 webshooters that incapacitates 2 seperate opponents...although he does sometimes cross the two lines to make a stronger, more durable webing.

[Manchine]

Have to say this was a good letter. I dont agree with all of it. Your making very reasonable requests. On your part.

This is a cool complaint. :laugh: :p ;) :laugh: :p ;)

[BigSoph]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide
Thank you, Nursenut.

In the past, I have written a handful of letters discussing my feelings/views about the game that has sadly narrowed down to "This sucks!" and "You losers!". I have just begun to see that it is much more effective to try to get your points across in a civilized and educated ways. It is pointless, especially online, to break down to a fighting level.

Well, kiss my a...wait a second, you were well-reasoned and polite.

STOP CONFUSING ME!

C'mon! Degenerate a little

[Spider_Cide]

For BigSoph: *in best Bender voice* Go to hell and kiss my shiney, metal ###!

But in all seriousness, when trying to pass along your complaints and ideas to a major company, why become uncivilized, rude, and at times, down right mean? You are more likely to have your veiws read with a sincer and open mind if you're not threatening to kick their collective butts if they don't make your favorite character with such and such powers for 'X' amount of points.

[Snork]

Well, here's an idea.

If Wizkids wanted input, they could bring it to the realms. For the next set, put up a poll of who people want. Everybody on here can vote once, for their top 10. At the end of it, Wizkids could make the top 10. And leave out the bottom 5, as long as they're not the same. That way, we're getting figs that the majority wants.
They could also ask for input on what powers we feel certain characters should have.
After all, other than the writers, who knows better than us. :)

What do y'all think about that?

[Spider_Cide]

Truthfully, Snork, that is a fabulous idea. It has been brought up in past threads on numerous occasions. But, just like before, a small problem accures. If the players/customers want characters A, C, E, G, and I, and these are what they've wanted from the get-go and Wiz Kids makes said figures, what is there to bring those players/customers back for the next set? Now, if WizKids would allow for a more open discussion on the development of the sets, along with our input on powers/general stats/sculpts, that would be perfect.

[Snork]

Well, they could just do a poll to find which figs people want the most, and space them out over a few sets.
There's so many people want, one poll could probably fill 3 sets.
Then for the filler, the 'who we don't want' would help keep more of certain people out of the next sets.

The poll would just be to find out who we really want, they'd put them in the sets as they see fit.

Think that might work?

[EvilGenius]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide
John L. has done a great job, so has Grubb and the rest of the crew.

While I am a fan of Jeff Grubb and I have every confidence in his abilities, we haven't actually seen any of his work yet. CM was designed by JonL. According to JonL and Grubb, Grubb's sets won't come out until next year. So I HOPE he's done a good job! :)

SpiderCide, I think you make some valid points. Though I do not presume to speak on behalf of WK, I would like to respond to some of your points. And I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, just illustrate another point of view.

Regarding tournaments:
The reduction in prize support was warrented and seriously overdue. Venues and judges abused the heck out of the old system. As someone else pointed out, the purpose of having a tournament system with prize support is to increase sales of the product. It is not primarily intended to make gamers happy, although it often accomplishes that, nor is it intended to give an equal distribution of special figures.

More competative, cut-throat strategy is the norm at tournaments, unless the judge is running a special "theme". That's really okay. I do not doubt that a newbie attending a tournament with 10 established players who are running powerful teams is going to get the bad end of the deal. That's also okay. It doesn't mean that they are going to have a bad experience, necessarily. If the newbie's opponent is amicable, helps them out on the rules, and is generally "fun", then even with a loss, the new player will probably have fun and pick up pointers for next time.

That has in fact been my experience as a newbie, as an experienced player, and now as a judge.

The specific type of powerful team varies by venue and the players normally in attendence. Hooker bombs reign at your venues. Firelord teams elsewhere (yes, STILL). It is neither desireable nor possible to find every "really powerful" combination and neuter it. If you were to try to do so, you would end up with chess. Everyone then has the same figures and abilities and there are no dice. That's the only way to make it even. But I firmly believe that no team is unbeatable, ESPECIALLY when you know it's coming. In fact, I have devoted a significant portion of my lengthy strategy article explaining how to overcome this pattern. That doesn't help newbies, but it should definitely help the player who routinely comes in second to the same type of team.

The number of prizes available doesn't address your stated problem at all. The newbie has no more chance at a second place prize than a first place prize. If fellowship is indeed rigged as you say (though I do not agree), then there's no help there either. The only way to insure that a newbie player is awarded a prize is to either designate a 'newbie' prize, which is no more enforceable than the fellowship prize, or issue prizes for all attendants.

But the bottom line is that increasing the number of prizes is more $ out of pocket for WK in production, packaging and (probably) shipping costs. In order to justify that, WK would really have to be able to show that an increase in prize support would also increase sales, and increase them enough to offset the additional costs.

And a word about costs. On an individual level, they don't seem like much. If your venue runs 4 tournaments/month, that's four additional figures. How much more expensive can that be?

I have no idea of the actual $ amounts, but one additional figure increases the expenditure by WK by about 50% (normally 2, adding 1 more for a total of 3). So let's just throw out some numbers for examples. If WK is spending $100,000 on prize support a year, increasing prize support by 1 per tournament makes their expenditure $150,000 per year. In order to justify that decision, they would have to be pretty sure that the increase in prize support would generate an increase in sales of more than $50,000.

And as I pointed out above, increasing the prize support back to 3 doesn't address your stated problem at all . So do you see why that might not be a good business decision?

I'd also like to respond to your concern regarding jude prizes. As many have pointed out and you have agreed, judges volunteer their time so that you have a tournament at all. Compensation is absolutely justified. Now the number of people in the tournament does not affect the prizes given out to the players, that is true. It affects the level of prize given to the judge as compensation. It is fairly difficult to get a Bruce Banner or Victor Creed, however. The minimum requirement is running a tournament with more than 13 players (I think that's the mark for an LE5). But that's no guarantee, either. There are a lot of LE5s. You can rest assured that the judges who are getting those rare figures are running a lot of tournaments with really big turnouts. And in order for that to happen, they're putting in quite a bit of work and making fun tournaments. If judges aren't going above and beyond the call, they're not getting Bruce Banner or Victor Creed. We too will get LE T.O. Morrow.

Also, it's fair to note that WK has also stated that they are going to try not to give judges the same LE twice. So even if a judge runs a lot of tournaments and makes sure there's great attendance, and does it long enough to get a Banner, that's the only one they're going to get.

As for people getting multiples of certain LE figures as player prize support, yes, that can happen, especially if you are winning at multiple venues. But WK has started designating which prizes are available in which month for what event in part to address that issue. It's not random anymore. You know what the prizes are going to be. If you don't want a particular LE, you can choose not to play or play a "fun", non-hooker-bomb team. If you win anyway, and you don't want the LE because you have 10 Thomas Oscar Morrows already, find a newbie and give/trade it to him. He'll appreciate it, believe me! :)

On to figure quality/representation.

The quality of figures is going to vary, there's no way around that really, since they are made at least in part, by humans. In my most recent CM booster, I got an Elektra that looks partially melted. The number of figures who do not pass quality control is unknown. But even my slightly melted Elektra is playable so I don't really mind. If it was a rare or U figure, I could send it back to WK and have it replaced, but since it's R Elektra, I'll leave her slightly amorphous head the way it is. :) That's life. And the percentage of figures who are really messed up is pretty low. The number of rare or Unique figures who are messed up is even lower. So, I choose to live with that.

As for the sculpts, well there are over 1000 figures now. That's 1000 sculpts. And there's a limit on what kind of pose is going to be solid on the click base. So really, I think that WK has done a pretty good job so far, even if they have a few 'stock' poses. And when they do try something new with figure poses, they usually get flack for it (ala Batgirl and Judge Hershey).

Figure's stats and powers are the single most contentious issue in the game. In ANY superhero game. Getting some more fan input would be great, in an ideal world. But consider HCRealms as a microcosm of the fan base, for the sake of argument. Which faction of fans are you going to listen to? Manchine fervently believes that Batman should not ever under any circumstances do 3 damage. I think 3 damage is okay. Whoops, what to do?

Also, the designers have told us that figures are designed about 9 months before they hit the shelves. That's how long it takes to get the figures produced, marketed and shipped. So hurry hurry, make all of your suggestions for the figures that are 3 expansions ahead of what hit the shelves 2 days ago! :)

WK can't release detailed product schedules that far in advance, even if they didn't have specific marketing provisions in their character licences. Telling us who's going to be in sets 3 expansions in the future is just asking for to much trouble. At the very least it gives people that much more time to complain about their favorite figures' exclusion! LOL!

That's why it's necessary to have a lead designer who can set the tone and hopefully provide a line of continuity between characters and sets. WK has had varying levels of success at this, but you cannot argue that they aren't at least TRYING. And if they really miss the mark, they can always release another version of a figure in a future set, as we all hope they do with [insert favorite figure here].

So in conclusion, while I appreciate some of your concerns, the tournament concerns are more properly handled by individual venues, the quality concerns really are minimal, and the represenation concerns are inherent to the game. I believe that all of these areas could be slightly improved, but in my opinion, nothing that you've raised is a gamebreaking issue (which is not meant to belittle your opinions in any way).

Respectfully,

Robert S. Madigan (aka, EvilGenius)

[AcidBath]

I think it would be cool if they put a little form in each booster that you could write out which characters, powers, teams, etc... you would like to see in future sets.

[EvilGenius]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide
Truthfully, Snork, that is a fabulous idea. It has been brought up in past threads on numerous occasions. But, just like before, a small problem accures. If the players/customers want characters A, C, E, G, and I, and these are what they've wanted from the get-go and Wiz Kids makes said figures, what is there to bring those players/customers back for the next set? Now, if WizKids would allow for a more open discussion on the development of the sets, along with our input on powers/general stats/sculpts, that would be perfect.

Yeeeaaahhhh. That is a great idea on paper. But I think it looses something in execution (although I certainly wish it were possible for us to all work collaboratively on such a fantastic game).

First of all, let us not forget that WK has to licence each character that they produce. And we have already seen that Marvel (and DC), can insist on a version of certain figures in every set. Character inclusion almost certainly has to be cleared with the parent companies, who may have a different agenda than the fans. It also has to fit with what WK wants to do, and that may confilict with fans wishes also, as you have pointed out in your post which I have quoted above.

The real kicker to this type of idea though, is that even here on the Realms, there is a lot more negative, unreasoned feedback than constructive and reasonable (I'm not accusing anyone in particular, just looking at the community as a whole). For every polite and well reasoned letter, how many would you guess are ugly and mean? So opening up for suggestions is inherently risky.

And no two clickers exactly agree on what powers or stats any character should have anyway. There may be some general trends, but how often would that really come out? On Batgirl, sure, maybe. But that's one figue out of about 1000 so far. Not such good results.

Then there's the trend of escalation and 'fanboy-ism'. I'm sure you've seen posts where someone has created a 200 point Captain America or Spiderman. And it sure seems justified sometimes. We'd all like to have our favorite characters be more powerful. I'll go out on a limb and say that's inherent in a game about superheroes. But WK has to make sure that there are 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 point characters, too, in order to make the game work.

Inevitably, some favorite characters are going to be made in the 30 point range when we, the fans, would like that figure to be in the 60 point range. And that's okay. We shouldn't necessarily get our way on that issue. If most figures were 'better', i.e. more powerful and expensive, it would be that much more difficult to build teams because there wouldn't be many lower point figures.

And if they did open figure design to player input, then they will inevitably suffer backlash when they can't make the figure exactly as everyone expects. And that will in fact generate MORE bad feeling than if they don't take player input. As of now, we don't have any expectation that our opinions are being consulted. So when figures come out and they're not exactly what we want, we can shrug and say, they didn't understand the figure, or they didn't know what we wanted.

But if they solicit our opinion (and we'll just assume that they can actually get a semi-coherent one out of "us"), and then they fail to make the 200 point Spidey, watch out! "Now our opinions weren't GOOD enough! Why would they ask and then ignore us? Are they just teasing us? Are we a joke to them?" I'm sure you can hear all of the ranting as clearly as I can.

I think they are pretty responsive already, it's just that they're working 9 months (about 3 sets) ahead of what we're seeing. So once they get our reactions on something, 'fixed' figures won't show up for about 3 more sets. The fans just are not going to be able to see the business picture that far ahead. WK might not be able to even see their business picutre that far ahead (though I hope they can). :)

In conclusion, it has been said that you cannot run a business as a democracy. And that is 100% true. WK has to have a degree of control over their product. It would be detrimental to them to give some of that power to us, the players, who would make decisions based on what we want and not what is good for the business. I'll leave it to WK.

[kellykc]

Very well stated Evil Genius.

Kelly :cool:

[Snork]

*sigh* Oh great, a rules lawyer.... ;)

Allow me to respond. Or try and stop me, you won't get here in time. :p

Ideas that are great on paper only lose something in the execution when the person implementing them is unable to adapt to opportunities. Any problem can be worked through, you just need the personal skills to manage.

First of all, this is just a broad based suggestion. It was by no means refined. If Wizkids wanted to do it, they'd take the concept and formulate a plan according to circumstances. The suggestion is definately workable. It's the variables that will be key to success and failure.

Second, I didn't say they should do it. I was asking if anybody thought it would work.

You make a lot of assumptions on what Wizkids can do, and that they can't permission to do them. Unless you're affiliated with Wizkids staff, you wouldn't know what they can and can't do. You don't know what agreements they have with certain characters, or the flexibility they were given. You don't know the discussions that were held behind closed doors.
But if you are affiliated, and have information you are able to share with us, please let me know, I would be happy to hear it. :) I would have been even happier to hear it before I wrote this big honkin' post. :D
__________________________________________________________
Now to respond;

Yes, Wizkids has to license the characters and there may be some restrictions. I didn't suggest this poll would be a legally binding agreement. It would simply give them an idea of what people are looking for. Knowing what your customers want improves the quality of your product. If there's a problem with a certain character, Wizkids could ask for permission to deal with that issue. But that still doesn't mean it has to be put in, they're just aware that we want it. And I believe that Marvel and DC would acomodate requests from fans, because they'd want to make any resonable attempt to please their fans and customers.

I understand negative comments could be a problem. That's why you ignore the people 'planning to kick the #### out of Jon L.', and listen to the positive people with reasonable ideas. Spider_Cide has a very good attitude in presenting his concerns. As well, I'm responding to your post because it's well thought out, contructive, and makes good points. If it was garbage, I would have ignored it. Much like Wizkids would do.

I agree that most people tend to argue over exactly how a character should be made. That's why a poll could be effective. It gives you a general consensus on what the average informed(we hope) fan thinks of that character. Based on a wide range of opinions, you can get a more accurate figure than you could with a small number of potentially biased people creating it. Large numbers of people balance out the fan boys and character haters. Admittedly, this could still create some odd results. But that is something to be dealt with on a case by case basis, after the poll is in. These are just suggestions for Wizkids to go on, nothing binding that they can't change.

They could still have smaller point characters. How powerful characters are depends on who Wizkids selects to make, and the parameters they give to us for design. IE; This person is in the early stage of their career. What powers/stat range did they appear to have in "blank" era. That could work. It may not. But again, it's just a suggestion.

I don't think there would be bad feelings if they didn't make characters exactly how we wanted them. Having your opinion valued is better than feeling ignored. And people would understand that the poll is a consensus, their opinion may differ from the majority. It would be ok as long as the majority was listened to.
This is a perfect example of the need for a wide sample of opinions. I'm saying people would like being asked, you say they would feel slighted. If it's just the two of us, nobody else, who's right? It's one to one. We both have opinions. Without bringing others into it, neither one can make claims on behalf of others. However, get 501 people in here to vote on how they'd feel, and we'd see how players in general would react. If it's a very close vote, you need to change some details to make it suit more people.

You're right, 9 months is a long time. That's a lot of planning. But, as fans, we don't need to see the business picture, or any picture. We're just telling them what we want, and leaving the rest up to Wizkids.

I respectfully disagree with your last paragraph. Most large businesses have some democracy. That's why they have voting stockholders, a board of directors, and managers, rather than one person with absolute power. That's also why think tanks exist. To prevent one persons vision from getting off track.

I totally agree that WK has to have a degree of control over their product. But it would be benificial to them to give us some input.
It's called giving the customer what they want. If they didn't listen to us at all, and made stuff we didn't want, we wouldn't buy their product and they'd be out of business. Customers won't buy products they don't want. You have to ask people what they want, not tell them what they want. Good customer relations combined with a good product will keep a company in business.

Your being happy to leave it to Wizkids is your choice. You feel they're doing a good job and have faith in them. That's good. Other people feel there are improvements that can be made. They're willing to make polite suggestions to help make the game better. That's good too. The game needs creative balance. I was just suggesting a concept that I felt would improve the game. Nothing more. If they think it will work, they can try it. If not, they have other ideas. I can't see the harm in that. Well, actually, all sorts of weird things might happen. Let me just say input is generally helpful, and leave it at that. :D

Evil, thanks for responding to my idea in a polite, thought provoking manner. You analyzed various points well, and I appreciate the feedback. After all, that's what this forum is here for. :)

[Spider_Cide]

Well, I never thought that someone would come in here and upshow me as well, and as well manored, as you have. Very good job my friend, very good indeed. Even though you stated that you weren't trying in any way change my views, I cannot help my change them slightly.

I still feel as though there are certain levels or lengths that Wiz Kids could go further inrich the HeroClix products. I understand that distribution of the LEs, mostly in regards to the player awards, should be more even and balanced. After so long, I really feel as though a LE should be "retired". I know that after a new set comes out, the previous LEs are put out of distribution (with the exception of some judge awards and conventions). This would ensure that a large varity of the LEs see the light of day, and keep the highly sought after ones still collectibles.

I do have to apologize for one of my original passages. I understand that the general atmosphere of the tournament environment varies slightly becuase of the number of prizes. I was trying to get across the general idea that, if given the fact that an extra prize was laying there, that most of the more hard-core tournament players would be willing to go a slightly easier method against the new players. I, be it 1 prize or 20 up for grabs, am constantly trying to help out as many new players as possible that come into the tournaments. If they make a mistake or walk into a situation that would grant me an instant victory, I allow him/her to redo certain actions and to rethink the path he/she originally choose. But not all players are going to be as nice, even though some are. Why? Most players go with the mind set that with only 2 prizes, they might as well "take no names" because the first place is going to fetch them more money on eBay.

In the figure quality of the game, I believe that everyone can agree that this deserves a lot of attention. You recieved a partly melted (or so it looks) rookie Elektra. Now, as this may not bother you as long as she is still very much playable, this can/will bother others. But as it has been stated before, quality control is going to be difficult due to the thousands produced on a daily basis. Yet, I cannot help but feel that there is something that can be done.

The poses, with the exceptions of 6-Armed Spider-Man; Captian America; and Captian Marvel, I have yet to have a real "problem" with any of them. With 1000 figures out, and still going strong, it is purely amazing at some of the creative ways the designers have done with the characters. My refrence to the Archangel sculpt was that if the (E) Archangel is indeed meant to be the 'Angel of Death', where is the metal wings and blue skin (omit the LE Angel, simply because he appears to be the blue-skinned Archangel after his broke free of the Metal wings yet keeped the skin color). It is true, that from the highest aspec of business view points, alternate sculpts for certain version of figures may not be the best way to go. But, wouldn't you agree, that from another view, it makes perfect sense? I mean, think of the countless boosters that fans would buy just to obtain that one sculpt for their favorite character.

Wiz Kids is a business, yes I fully agree. But it is the consumers/fans who keep the business alive. Heroclix is a game. Games are created, become huge sucesses {Infinity Challenge/Hyper Time}, have a bit of 'down-time' {Indy Clix}, and make a huge come back {Critical Mass...afterwards?}. But in the end, based on how the company manufacturing the games treats the customers determines how long a game will stay alive in the gaming community. Wizards of the Coast for example. They brought out one of the biggest fads to hit the American shore: Poke`mon TCG. The slow pace of bringing out the cards kept fans happy, especially the parents buying the merchandise for their children. But after so long, they started to bring out set after set within only a few months inbetween each set. Each set brought along cards that made previous sets obsolete, except to collectors. They only cared about making money and cared less about the veiws of the buyers. Where they producing well thought out cards? Where the graphics on the cards of a decent standard (this was a problem since many images were edited from their Japanese counterparts)? Will these sets make it hard for newer players to get into the game? The company never gave honest thoughts to these worries, or from voice of the players. The game has since died out, with only a hand full of people buying the card sets that occassionly come out.

I realize that zero of my points are game breaking. These were just points I felt, after reading through dozens of thread on hcrealms and the wizkids forums, need to be said in a single, clear voice absent of the vulgar, childish antics that the threads eventually break down to. And if HCRealms is just a tiny micro of the people that actually play this game, imagine the number of players/buyers out there who share the same views as Manchine or Shin or myself (though, I'd never place myself in the catagory as those two, as I'm just a common place compared to them). But as it has been stated her and else where, the players never look at the picture from a business perspective. Maybe the players are too greedy for their own good. Then again, our money does go into their pockets.

[MJlover]

I have to disagree with Evilgenius on one point. I don't think that everyone thinks that their favorite characters should always be really expensive. This is why you have three different versions of most figures. You can have a 30 point version, a 45 point version, and a 65 point GOOD version of, say Captain America. Yes, some people go a little overboard with wanting 200 point versions of characters like Spidey, but most of us don't.
Also, where I most often have problems with a figure is that when their stats don't warrant them being as expensive as they are. I know they have a formula, but sometimes you have to look at how all their stats work together. A good example is Iron Man. He's 189 points, and has a lot of good powers, but when his attack starts at 10 and goes down quickly, his RCE, and super strength are going to be somewhat useless.
My main problem with this lately is E Thor and now Beta Ray Bill. Their points are exactly the same, and Thor's stats aren't bad at all, but, even by their own formula, he's still not worth the points. This is why I am dissapointed in Beta Ray Bill. The problem is to make him well worth the points, they would have had to admit they were a little off with Thor's stats/price.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide

Now, why is the reasoning behind this? The lack of a second place prize. Now, you're probably thinking that 1 less prize isn't a big deal. But many fellowship prizes are rigged, so trying for that is usually out of the question. The second place prize was removed because of the company wanting to level out Mage Knight/Mech Warriors with HeroClix. Well, if that is the case, then why do we not have a ranking? With a lack of prizes and nothing to show your standings in the game, why bother at times?

Lack of a second place prize will do nothing to help any situations. Fellowship is not rigged in most cases. Sure there are crooked judges and disreputable players but in all the tournaments I have played in I have never seen a rigged fellowship. As a judge you can always devise a better way to vote for fellowship to make it harder for a group of friends to 'rig' it. I further do not understand this need for something more than what Wizkids has offered to you as a company to a consumer. I don't remember the last time I recieved a special game token for playing in a (non-existant) Monopoly tournament. Feel lucky we get a Fellowship prize at all. At least WK is trying to help make a better gaming environment through awarding that type of behavior.

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Spider_Cide
Judges and Judge-Support

This one doesn't bother many, I'm sure, but then again it does bother others. How is it fair that the players have to play for 2nd-rate LEs, and work our hardest to win those, while a judge (who only sits there and does nothing) receives a Bruce Banner or Betsy Braddock or Hank MaCoy? I'm sure that many of the judges on this site do more than what just sit around, but what about those that do? A judge does more than sit there and do nothing. A judge has to coordinate the event witht the venue...sometimes a hard thing to do if the venue has other events going on. Some judges take it a step further and try to coordinate their events with other judges to not clash with other HC tournaments. Also a judge SHOULD have a better understanding of the rules and be availiable to answer questions aand make rulings. Judges have to also keep up to date on the WK official rulings and print out the FAQ each month. There are also some judges who go that extra mile and print out certificates for the winners and attempt to offer other prizes for 2nd place or even at times 3rd. A judge should also help to advertise and promote the events he/she runs.

I am not the best player at my venue. I come in 2nd or 3rd as far as rank is concerned. But many of the players ask me questions about rules and the like constantly. Why? Because I know more than the judge! So while the judge has a beautiful Bruce Banner...I'm up to my neck in Thomas Oscar Morrows and Mary Walkers. The judge recruitment system currently in effect is flawed to say the least. There is no judge recruitment system. WK is trying to create tests to qualify a person's rules knowledge before they become a judge. While a judge does "get paid" with LEs through WK, LEs do not pay the bills. Sure they can be sold but that is another game entirely. So a judge may not know more than a player...just because somebody will always know more than the next guy. If you are so knowledgable about the game and you want to get in on the "judges' LE scam" then maybe you should attempt to become a judge. Also a judge cannot play in a tournament he/she is running but can play in other tournaments but since I became a judge and have been running tournaments I have had time to play in 1 tournament and 1 friendly 'at-home' game. It isn't all it's cracked up to be.

*Please note, I'm not saying all judges are this way. I know of many judges that go beyond the call of duty when it comes to a weekly or bi-weekly tournament*

[Spider_Cide]

dax1,

If you had clearly read my post, you would have seen that I did say that there are some judges that go above the call of duty. I am very well educated in the rules of the game. When I am able to find a venue with ample space to accomidate a tournament on a weekly basis, I do in fact plan on becoming a judge. Not because I want these Lv 5 LEs, far from it (I'm currently 1 LE short of owning every LE produced). I want to be able to run a friendly tournament environment in which everyone can come and feel at home while they play.

I realize that LEs, unless sold, do not help pay the bills. I have bought a few LEs from some judges in the past. If a judge wants to sell their LEs, that is their business.

And for the record, I never refered to the envoy awards as a 'scam'. I was just curious as to what justifies a judge recieving such high end LEs. I can proudly say that I won all 3 of my Bruce Banners. Those three figures are proudly displayed with honor knowing that I worked my ### off to acquire them through tournament play and not for just watching over one.


I apologize for my ill-tempered language and speech.

[darius_dax1]

spider,

Also note that I included your disclaimer about judges. I clearly read your post and you do come off as one of those 'whiners' that you do not want to come off as. While you didn't refer to the Judges' Reward Program as a 'scam' you did infer it. What qualifies a judge for those LEs is purely attendance to their events. I am glad to hear that you want to foster a good gaming environment once you find a venue...you should start to try to become a judge now though, so you are ready when that time comes.

Your language and speech were not so ill tempered.

[Spider_Cide]

The 'whiners', as it may be, take their complaints to uncivilized lengths, dax. I have had time off from work these past few days (due to the holiday season) and have been refreshing myself on the back logs of the forums, catching myself up. All I have done was gather up a few of the more highlighted complaints I read and summitted them in a well manored format (which I thank all repliers for keeping it as such). Yes, I admit that I did add a few of my own personal feeling about the subjects. But I believe that I have kept myself above said 'whiners'. I've yet to prove other wise. There is one main difference between myself and the whiners you feel that I failed in seperating myself from: I know when to quit. If I don't like something enough, I know that I can quit purchasing this product. But I have yet to find a problem in a large enough scale to warrent the need to quit.

And I apologize if anyone took it as though I was inferring to the Judge's Reward Program as a scam. I think it is a fabulous idea that WizKids would be as kind as to support such a program. Although, I still cannot see (attendence numbers or not) the justification behind the rewarding of such high level LEs. But that is just my personal feelings, and I completely respect anyone who feels the need to defend that award qualifications(such as you, dax).

[darius_dax1]

There are parameters for the awarding of 'x' level LE to a judge based on 'x' attendance. Total monthly attendance also has a 'reward' for 'x' attendance. Lower level LEs can also be rewarded for lower attendance. WK has also required envoys to sign NDA agreements besides running tournaments.