Weekly Poll: Restricted format, thumbs up or thumbs down?

[webhead817]

As promised, this week's poll asks your opinion about the announced restricted format for WizKids games.

If you have not already, I encourage you to first read the press statement and faq found in this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82237&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1) and the Q & A transcript found here (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid=38826.) before submitting your vote.

[space_cowboy]

Did type 1 and 2 kill magic?

[hair10]

While I understand the business needs for this move ("retiring" sets), I don't think it's necessarily good for the players. I think that it will be forcing HC players to simply buy figs that they already have in order to continue to play.

[tyroclix]

I wouldn't have a problem with the Restricted Format - if it was done like a Marquee. A tourney or 2 a month that you can only use figs from the current (most recent) set.

That way, the focus would be on which figs you'd have to use - as opposed to on what figs you couldn't use. And could create some fun game dynamics.

But we all know the unrestricted is going to be few and far between (or why else would they mention retirement?) so the focus is on the negative.

And comparing Magic to Hero Clix is erroneous. No one was ever emotionally attached to a Black Lotus. Banning or retiring cards doesn't carry the same effect as banning Captain America, The Thing, the Vision, or Dr. Doom.

Now as expansions come out and we get variants of figs that came out already - it might not be as bad as some have said - but I don't think it will be good for the game.

[garlinghouse]

I am waiting to see which sets they actually retire before I decide. In any case, I never play in big tourneys, just game club stuff.

[MJlover]

Without going into too much detail again, I think retirement is a bad idea for the players. It might even turn out to be a bad business decision, because there are a lot of people who might just quit because of it. If the number of people who say they will quit actually do quit, there will not be nearly enough new players to make up for them.

[Angry Salad]

Originally posted by tyroclix
No one was ever emotionally attached to a Black Lotus.

Speak for yourself, my friend, speak for yourself. I know I curl up with my Black Lotus every night when I go to bed.

I think once we get a couple more sets in and the retirement process starts, it'll be a lot less harmful than people think. If there's enough support I'm sure Unrestricted tournaments will be run often enough. Anyone who quits now is doing nothing more than subscribing to reactionism.

[Silver Lantern]

Just to make this exceedingly clear, the restricted format is the one that will be adopted when Wizkids starts to retire/ban sets. You older/retired sets & figures will NOT be usable in this restricted format.

I want to make this clear, because honestly the way the poll is worded does not clarify all the implications involved here for some who may not know what restricted means.

So if you are against banning/retiring of sets from use in the standard restricted format, you want to vote that the restricted format is bad.

And conversly, if you support the retiring/banning of sets from the standard play environment which will be restricted, then vote that restrictied format is good.

Just trying to appraise everyone about what exactly this poll is about, in case they don't understand what restricted means.

[booper]

I agree with Silver Lantern, that the poll question is somewhat ambiguous. I would have liked to see something more along the lines of:

Will the Retiring of Sets be good for the game?
Will the Retiring of Sets be bad for the game?

[skeevo666]

Wot the links in the 1st post weren't enough . . ?

[Hellboy]

Originally posted by tyroclix

And comparing Magic to Hero Clix is erroneous. No one was ever emotionally attached to a Black Lotus. Banning or retiring cards doesn't carry the same effect as banning Captain America, The Thing, the Vision, or Dr. Doom.



I have to argue this point. I've seen lots of people get attached to their cards, become very connected to certain combinations, and have alot of emotional attachment to specific cards. Iwould certainly be attached to a Black Lotus If I had one.

The difference is that people had connections to Comics characters before they played the game. but with Indy out, even that isn't always the case.

I think the issue is one of playability and balance, not sentimentality. I think another system could be enacted to help the game remain balenced...though this would be the simplest solution (retirment rotation that is)

[Kaitouace]

If Unrestricted tourneys are supported properly by WizKids then it will benefit the game.

It will allow the somewhat unnecessary or overpowered figs to be phased out of the game (Firelord, Con Artist, Paramedic).

It will inspire more varied teams since you won't be able to use the same staple figs over and over (unless in Unrestricted).

Restricted format is the best chance for older figs or figs that were somewhat under-represented to be remade better (Juggernaut, Magneto, Hawkeye, etc.) and the best bet for overpowered figs (Firelord) to be remade to be more "fair" than they were originally.

This is also the best chance for lesser figs to be remade to current comic levels (Black Panther, FF, Dr. Doom) so there are different options to choose from while making an FF team or some other team.

With all the remakes hopefully Wizkids will abandon the idea that there has to be a Spider-Man, Hulk, etc. in every set to give that space to other heroes who could use revamps.

[booper]

[/quote]
Wot the links in the 1st post weren't enough . . ?
[quote]

They're enough if someone bothers to read them before voting, but I bet a lot of people won't.

I see no reason why the question shouldn't be as clear as possible, and not subject to mis-interpretation.

[kwsazul]

You should always be informed before you vote.

For how vocal this decision has become could this poll have been cued to the home/front page or did I miss the link? The only reason I found out about it was a link in another thread (thanks skeevo).

I see this as an unecessary move that will make a loyal fan base feel very unappreciated. WK is perfectly capable of reprinting the "hard to get" figures in future expansions with out ever having to ban anyone. If future expansions have a 70/30 or even 60/40 new to reprint ratio respectively I am sure that fans would be much less disappointed in this than banning, hell after the banning announcemnent they'd love the idea.

[webhead817]

Originally posted by Silver Lantern
I want to make this clear, because honestly the way the poll is worded does not clarify all the implications involved here for some who may not know what restricted means.

Quite frankly, I think the poll is perfectly clear. I think most people get confused as to what banned/retired means. As set retirements deal only with restricted format constructed events, that is what the poll deals with.

Of course, I might be biased since I wrote the poll. :)

[webhead817]

Originally posted by kwsazul
For how vocal this decision has become could this poll have been cued to the home/front page or did I miss the link? The only reason I found out about it was a link in another thread (thanks skeevo).

This poll, like all of the others, is in the Polls forum. Some of the realms sites link to the Polls on the front page, some don't.

[jkc]

I haven't heard the argument yet that for this game to support a vital tournament scene, it's going to have to keep coming out with new tournament viable figures. The way I see it, these figures will either have to keep getting better and better, essentially phasing out the older figures (bye-bye rookie Steel as soon as Supergirl and Superboy come and replace him), or Wizkids can just bluntly phase them out with the restricted format.

Is anyone going to keep buying cases of heroclix when there are only two or three figures per set that you want, and only maybe that many that are essential for tournaments? Don't you have enough Starjammers and Umars as it is?

Oh, and another thing, didn't Wizkids say that they're aiming for one base set and three expansions? So that could easily mean, what, most figures from IC and XP for the base set, and CT, CM, and Ultimates for the three expansions? Oh boo hoo cry me a river. By the time CT gets retired, it'll be early 2005. There will be 450 figures to choose from for those of us currently playing, and it'll be well over a year since anyone new was able to pick up a CT figure from a booster. Should new players be paying out the ### for once common figures they never had a chance to pull such as Doombots and E Black Cats, never mind White Queen, Logan, She-Hulk, Spiral, Moondragon, and Nightcrawler? Would you start a game where many of the most valuable figures cost an arm and a leg to get? And if they're not valuable by that time because newer figures are better, then who cares if you can't use them in tournaments? Use them in friendly games if you love doombots that much.

I'm pro-restriction because I want this game to have a hope of lasting more than a couple years.

[FireLFighter]

I think a restricted format is bad, cause I'm sure, that here in germany there will not be unrestricted events. I play heroclix only on tournaments. I'm not a collector. They could as well come to my house and burn my banned Clix.

[kwsazul]

webhead. not to sound ungrateful for the poll and all, but I was referring to the links with a little blurb that are usually posted on the home page, ie the blurb about the chat transcript and the link below it to the "coments". I think putting this out there on the front page will get it the attention it deserves. Alot more than 50 people had comments to make about this, yet the poll is so small. Is it possibe that you as a mod for this site can have it linked/cued to the front page?

[kwsazul]

And also, for the argument of being informed: could someone please tell me the chronological order of the sets, you know like CM came out 11-03, because I really don't know the release dates of sets before CJ. Thanks.

[CyberVenom]

kwsazul: Excellent Dave Chapelle quote!

Anyhoo, I'm mainly against the restricted format, or banned tournaments, or whatever you'd like to call it primarily because WizKids (or people representing them) stated at the beginning of this fine game called HeroClix that they wouldn't do this sort of thing.

[warden]

Originally posted by jkc
By the time CT gets retired, it'll be early 2005. I'm in no rush to stop playing with Clobberin' Time figures either though I'm getting a bit tired of the rookie Invisible Girl. But if you go to the Figure Gallery on Wizkids' site and drill down to a CT figures, you'll find that it says "Tournament Status - Retired". Judging from that, it's already happened ...

Andrew

[jkc]

Hmm...

You're right. Well, I still think that what I suggested made more sense (i.e. retiring the IC and XP figures that won't be reissued in Universe).

And I only got my V Doc Ock last week. *sigh*

I'm still pro-retirement, but I'm disappointed that Wizkids will almost certainly retire CT before the chaff from IC and XP.

[spidey16]

:( I do not mind that they retire figures from play. It will force people to change their teams up. I do have a problem with the fact that they will have a green light to replace figures already produced in future expansions. We could actually get to a point where the three current releases contain the same figures as the prior three releases with minor changes. Expand the universe, don't make it stagnant.

[sarcastro]

For those who feel only one set at a time is being retired, I offer this:

[16:36] {KevinG} {stend} Will HeroClix retirement be done as a single line, or as separate Marvel, DC, and Indy lines?

[16:37] {JamesC} stend--We will address this issue when we make a retirement in the HeroClix line.

Not a comforting response, especially when one was needed. I have a suspician more then IC will disappear when the the retirement takes effect.

[booper]

Sarcastro,

I think you're making an excellent point. I did note that part of the chat session as particularly disconcerting.

With the new "Open play" format, they may try to justify something like the following:

Base Set: Marvel Universe
Expansion 1: Indy
Expansion 2: Critical Mass
Expansion 3: Unleashed

That would eliminate Hypertime, Cosmic Justice, Half of Infinity Challenge, Half of Xplosion, and Clobberin' Time - all in one shot.

It would definitely be the end of Heroclix for me if Wizkids did that.

[The Sandman]

I expected more people to respond than this.

[sarcastro]

Here's another part that bothered me:

[16:03] {KevinG} {Kinnison} Are there plans to increase the support for unresricted games, at or near the same levels as restricted play?

[16:04] {JamesC} We'll continue to offer Unrestricted events, but we can only support so many events each month and we need to concentrate attention on the newer sets.

Now I understand they have a business to run. I don't expect more support for unrestricted than restricted. I don't expect it to be 50-50. And I even don't expect them to know the answer to that question right now. But JamesC's reply makes it sound like they could drastically reduce the number of unrestricted events in order to sell the newer sets.

[chase_jyd]

So long as they remember to continue to support unrestricted events, I'm all for retirement. It won't affect casual play at all, and there will still be a wide range of figures available.
And considering that they've stated that an expansion will be playable for about 2 years, and that WK doesn't promote mixing universes in their sponsored events, it will be the base set per universe, and the three most recent expansions from that universe.

One of the best things I see clix doing is getting more kids into comics and gaming, I'am all for supporting them and making the play environment more friendly to newer players, at least at restricted events, while still giving the longer time players enough unrestricted events to let them use their favorites in.

Based on everything we've seen so far, I continue to be pro-set retirement.

[fatalsync]

More people definitely need to vote on this!

[The Sandman]

From all the posts for and against, I figured more people would be voting.

[TyeDyeSamurai]

Are the YES people anxiously awaiting the arrival of Restricted Tourneys, or just accepting that its inevitable?
Are the NO people frothing over this or are they fine with Restricted Tourneys, but think they might be a mistake for the game?

This poll doesn't really tell me anything. But that's probably the point, what with Wizkids keeping an eye on the Realms and all.

[Captain_Comet]

As a YES person I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of Restricted Tourneys, and I have accepted the inevitable :-)

[skyounkin]

Can't really say I am looking forward to restricted/retired sets, especially since on the wizkids site tournament status for figs from CT are already in the "Retired" status- Only LE's remain active. If nothing else, Wizkids isn't known for keeping their word, and I believe they will eventually phase out the unrestricted events to push the newer sets. I don't think it will cause the death of the game but will be remember as yet another nail in the coffin.

[Captain_Comet]

I'm a new judge, but not a new player. I have 4 old players
and 4 new players. Its really tough trying to level the playing
field. I think this will help that a lot. Plus we play for fun all thetime and I would throw unrestricted events regardless. My
players don't really mind so much at all. However I only have
about 10 players in total right now. I think as I get more
and more new players interested the retirement wont bother them as much. Another note is that my gaming community
is largely based on guys and gals that play Magic: The Gathering and YU-GI-OH!. they are all used to retirements
and illegal cards etc... so as I try to recruit them they're
prepared for the worst. I still think after the 300 strong
chat and all the crazy petitioning going on for only 93 people
to have voted so far is ludicrous.

[The Sandman]

People are either sick of discussing it or they don't see this thread.

[webhead817]

Just as an update: I've been keeping tabs on this vote, and almost since the beginning, the voting has been two to one against the Restricted Format. Remember, you can cast your vote without having to comment any further on the thread.

[Krellen]

I support it.

[The Sandman]

You know, I think people don't like to take polls. Why don't we have a survey asking if people support taking polls or not?

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by The Sandman
You know, I think people don't like to take polls. Why don't we have a survey asking if people support taking polls or not?


Though to cover all bases we should poll the people who don't like responding to surveys ;)

[Miraclo]

Thumbs down on the move towards Restricted events and figure retirement, but I'm not frothing.

Their aim should be to give us more playable versions of older pieces along with new characters of course. That way most of the old figs would eventually be self-retiring. Retirement indicates to me, in part, that they don't have faith in their ability to consistently offer us more interesting versions.

Under the eventual system my expectation is that support for "unrestricted" events will start off lukewarm and fall off from there. Honestly, what would be their incentive to support them vigorously, having drawn the line between New and Old themselves?

I usually only hit venues around marquee times anyway, so it'll have next to no effect on me directly. However, much like relaunching a comics title and throwing out most or all of the backstory, retirement is a slap in the face to those who've been there the longest. This is not a move that's going to increase morale and enthusiasm in the long run. There are those who are focused largely on wanting to see specific pieces removed from teams, and those who apparently get their jollies by playing that they're above all of the distress. Eventually, this process will touch them badly, too, unless venue play is largely irrelevant to them.

[webhead817]

Originally posted by TyeDyeSamurai
Are the YES people anxiously awaiting the arrival of Restricted Tourneys, or just accepting that its inevitable?
Are the NO people frothing over this or are they fine with Restricted Tourneys, but think they might be a mistake for the game?

This poll doesn't really tell me anything. But that's probably the point, what with Wizkids keeping an eye on the Realms and all.

Hmm, I think you need to look at the poll question again, as it isn't a Yes/No so much as a Good/Bad. Also, if you haven't seen the movie Conspiracy Theory, you might want to check it out, I think you'll like it.

[Silver Lantern]

Well, MW realms has over 500 votes on their poll. I just don't see why not more people have voted here with 18,000 members.

[Silver Lantern]

Originally posted by The Sandman
From all the posts for and against, I figured more people would be voting.

Maybe someone can post a link to this poll in each of those threads. I don't know how, so I can't do it. ;)
Translation: I no longer care.

[TyeDyeSamurai]

Originally posted by webhead817
Hmm, I think you need to look at the poll question again, as it isn't a Yes/No so much as a Good/Bad. Also, if you haven't seen the movie Conspiracy Theory, you might want to check it out, I think you'll like it.

I don't know why a moderator feels the need to slide a subtle insult my way. I just feel that with all the controversy this poll is pretty lackluster and devoid of any real meaning.
300+ members attended the chat and 100 people voted. And instead of "I hate this!" and "It's great for the game!" which have dominated the topics as of late, we get "I guess so" and "I guess not".

Sorry about suggesting your masterpiece isn't perfect. :rolleyes:

[TyeDyeSamurai]

And since you assume I'm crazy, you probably think I'm a vocal moron who hates Wizkids.

In fact, I voted that Restricted tournaments are good for the game and support Wizkids in their attempts to improve the game. Indy rules, new powers, Galactus and all. I think they're doing a great job.

[miridor]

I think people here are just tired of discussing this. They vote and don't comment or just pass it by. I do think that this poll is a bit too much black or white.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by TyeDyeSamurai
I don't know why a moderator feels the need to slide a subtle insult my way.


Could it be due to you implying the poll isn't fair and/or Wiz Kids is unduly influencing it . . ?



Originally posted by TyeDyeSamurai
300+ members attended the chat and 100 people voted.

Not all of the 300 were from HCRealms, most (judging from line-specific questions in the chat) were from MK & MW Realms.


Originally posted by miridor
I think people here are just tired of discussing this.


Also, many people have changed their minds (some publicly :) )

[webhead817]

Originally posted by TyeDyeSamurai
I don't know why a moderator feels the need to slide a subtle insult my way...

Hmm, let me add in the ;)

There. "Have you ever seen the movie Conspiracy Theory? I think you'd like it. ;) " (See, I'm just poking gentle fun, not insults.)

Anywho, the voting remains close to the 2-1 against...please feel free to add your vote if you haven't already.

[daburton]

Originally posted by tyroclix


And comparing Magic to Hero Clix is erroneous. No one was ever emotionally attached to a Black Lotus. Banning or retiring cards doesn't carry the same effect as banning Captain America, The Thing, the Vision, or Dr. Doom.

Now as expansions come out and we get variants of figs that came out already - it might not be as bad as some have said - but I don't think it will be good for the game.

Very well said and a few more points that should be made also. Base cost for a Magic card is less than .30 per card and a set runs roughly $100 or so per set. Base cost per Heroclix is $1.75 per figure and a set runs roughly $400 or so per set. HUGE HUGE difference in retiring the two. Secondary market values mean little in these terms. And my biggest argument has always been...that we get variants of figures now, so why do things have to change? How many different spider-mans, etc do we have already? So is this really going to simply boil down to....lets release the same figure again and make the people buy them to use them OR lets release this figure with the same stats as that figure and make the people buy them to use them?

[bullseye100]

i think it will be bad!!!!

[TyeDyeSamurai]

Here's a poll from another site that's got a few votes:

==========================
Yes 0 (0%)
No 5 (33%)
Yes, it will give the game longevity 5 (33%)
No, it will turn HeroClix into MTG 3 (20%)
I'm quitting the game! 0 (0%)
I will never play in a tourney again! 0 (0%)
I can't wait to pull ANOTHER R Puppet Master! 2 (13%)
==========================

That's all I'm talking about... that oh, so scrumptious 'grey area'.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by TyeDyeSamurai
Here's a poll from another site that's got a few votes:

==========================
Yes 0 (0%)
No 5 (33%)
Yes, it will give the game longevity 5 (33%)
No, it will turn HeroClix into MTG 3 (20%)
I'm quitting the game! 0 (0%)
I will never play in a tourney again! 0 (0%)
I can't wait to pull ANOTHER R Puppet Master! 2 (13%)
==========================

That's all I'm talking about... that oh, so scrumptious 'grey area'.
The cave . . . ain't it grand? :grin:

[shin-goji]

Sadly enough, we can poll and debate and argue and threaten to quit, but the change is coming. The choice you have to make is what you will do with your time.

[thespiderfly]

I see this as making the tournament scene more viable and more level of a playing field. As it is, there are plenty of times that I'd rather have a booster draw just because I don't have the most awesomest figures out there.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by shin-goji
The choice you have to make is what you will do with your time.


This has been a Public Service Announcement from Shin-Gandalf ;) :cool:

[TyeDyeSamurai]

Originally posted by shin-goji
Sadly enough, we can poll and debate and argue and threaten to quit, but the change is coming. The choice you have to make is what you will do with your time.

Play clix! :cool:

[delowen]

I've read both the press statement and the Q & A trasnscript, and I still say thumbs down. Not that I think WK really cares. I've said it over at MWrealms and I'll say it here; yes, Wizkids is a company, and companies are in business to make money, but that's no excuse. They have always maintained that they would not ban or restrict any figures. Ever. Until now.

Company or not, if your word isn't good, then you have no business expecting my loyalty as a customer.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by delowen
Company or not, if your word isn't good, then you have no business expecting my loyalty as a customer.


Good words or not, if they go out of business, then we have no one to be a loyal customer of. ;)

[sarcastro]

I agree with skeevo, respect should always take a backseat to money.;)

[dino1626]

I am against the retirement of figs.(For the record)

I also have a question-Maybe I don't get it completely but here we go.

I am a player as well as a collector.My question is this:If they retire sets,and replace some of the retired figs with new sculpts of the old figs,will the new sets actually be new sets with new figures or new sets with tons of remakes of old figs?

[delowen]

Originally posted by skeevo666
Good words or not, if they go out of business, then we have no one to be a loyal customer of. ;)

Yeah, :( I know. It just drives me crazy that This is their big plan to fix things after the Creepy Freaks bomb.

[paladin72]

I don't believe that retiring figs is the answer. I think a better choice would be to fire their market researchers, and hire some people with a better understanding of the wants and needs of the gaming public.

[Normandy]

With the limited number ok Hero Cli I have. I defiantly think this will help new players like me!

[fallguy]

We all know the saying" You can't have your cake and eat it too". The bottom line is that this game only continues as long as it is profitable. As soon as that stops the game will disappear; that is the reality of our society. Understanding this, I support a move that makes the game more accessable to new customers. That is what this is about, nothing more. I know this cause I am in sales and in sales if your profits are not growing they may as well be shrinking. So quit all the whinning and realize that concession need to be made in life.
BenG.