Marvel/DC Battles: TEAM Tournament Of Champions: Round 1, Match 8

[DTM]

Ouch, our first SLAUGHTER of the tournament so far, which isnt so bad all things considered really. :) And as much as I argue for Cable and his XForce, Im MORE than happy with the FF taking this one, and moving on to Round 2.

For our next battle, we have, you guess it, ANOTHER Marvel vs Marvel fight, this time Good against Evil. So without further hesistation, I give you:


SINISTER SIX VS. X-MEN #2


Sinister Six – Dr. Octopus (Adamantium arms), Sandman, Mysterio, Electro, Venom, Hobgoblin, Kraven

X-Men #2 – Phoenix, Gambit, Rogue, Archangel (metal wings), Havok, Bishop, Iceman (Pre Emma Frost)


As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.

Randomly Chosen Area:


Mountain Forest - Large rocks/boulders, perhaps a mountain river/stream, plenty of trees, etc.


Thanks all, and enjoy.

And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.


TEAM TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS


ROUND 1

Jusitce League #1 VS. Justice League #3: Justice League #3
(Steel, Metamorpho, Firestorm, Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Rocket Red)

Titans VS. JSA: JSA
(Flash I, Power Girl, Hawkman, Mr. Terrific, Starman (Jack), Atom Smasher)

Marauders VS. Hellfire Club: Hellfire Club
(Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, Harry Leland, Donald Pierce, Trevor Fitzroy, Shinobi Shaw, Frederick Von Roehm)

X-Men #1 VS. Legion Of Super-Heroes #1: X-Men #1
(Banshee, Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Storm, Wolverine)

Alpha Flight VS. Avengers #2: Avengers #2
(Wonder Man, Warbird, Hawkeye, Wasp, Crystal, Spider-Man)

Defenders VS. Masters Of Evil #1: Defenders
(Dr. Strange, Namor, Beast, Black Knight, Valkyrie, Hellcat)

Fantastic Four VS. X-Force: Fantastic Four
(Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing, She Hulk)

Sinister Six VS. X-Men #2: ??????

[UberDT]

I'd have to say X-Men 2 for the win in this bout. Too much powerful range for the Six to handle.

[thedon09]

I'm going with X-Men #2. Very tough decision. I may be swayed by someone's opposite opinion, but I gotta go with X-Men due to the extra member and the various powers.

[UberDT]

Oh, First Post by me!

[DTM]

Originally posted by thedon09
I'm going with X-Men #2. Very tough decision. I may be swayed by someone's opposite opinion, but I gotta go with X-Men due to the extra member and the various powers.

Actually, they have the same amount of members each. :)

[thedon09]

Oh. man, I feel stupid, oh, well, I still vote X-Men.

[UberDT]

True as that may be DTM, five of the siz X-Men members have flight, and have some sort of ranged attack, which plays very well for them. Also the enviroment hinders the Six, especaially Venom and maybe even Doc Ock. Granted it gives Kraven a huge advantage, but I think Jean should be able to negate that with her Telepathy/telekentics. Just what i think. Also the Six only have what, two members with flight and four members with mid range attacks. Not sure if that'd help them agaisnt actually flyers. Just my two cents worth.

[DTM]

Sinister Six – Dr. Octopus (Adamantium arms), Sandman, Mysterio, Electro, Venom, Hobgoblin, Kraven

X-Men #2 – Phoenix, Gambit, Rogue, Archangel (metal wings), Havok, Bishop, Iceman (Pre Emma Frost)

Kraven vs Bishop

Sandman vs Rogue

Dr. Octopus vs Phoenix

Venom vs Archangel

Hobgoblin vs Iceman

Electro vs Havok

Mysterio vs. Gambit

After this first Round, I see only Gambit and Havok lasting. leaving them to fight Dr. Octopus, Sandman, Venom, Hobgoblin, and Kraven.

This Sinsiter Six team is NOT to be taken lightly.

Sinister Six for the win.

[Silver Ghost]

X-Men, and without TOO much difficulty.

ROGUE after getting beat around by Doc Ock finally gets in close and gives him a smooch.

HAVOK turns Sandman to glass.

I can't see the rest of the SS beating the X-men - especially considering HAVOK and ROGUE are then able to wallop the rest of the SS with them!

X-MEN for the win!:laugh:

[oogie56]

The X Men are just too tough here. Electro would be negated by Bishop, who would get juiced up by Havok before going in. Archangels neurotoxin darts would also be a great stopper for the likes of Kraven. Mysterio would be a problem, but a metalist can have him taken out quick. Rogue would tie up with Doc Ock, and his arms would get the better of her, but where she goes, Remy follows. Iceman VS Sandman would be fun. Hobgoblin doesn't scare anyone.

X Men for the win.

[Laenan]

X-men

[supermangl1]

Ouch, X-Men 2 have this in the bag. I go ahead and say they are my favs to take this tourny. Too much power, ,ability, and just all around to good. Plus Bishop is on the team, which makes them even cooler in my opinion.
Slaughter #2 is about to happen.

my vote = X-Men2

[CaptainMarvel]

Wow X-men 2 look to have a large advantage in my opinion.



I will have to vote

X-Men#2

[UberDT]

I agree the Six shouldn't be taken lightly, but neither should the X-Men. I see them fighting more as a team and more to their advantage. I.E.
Electro v Bishop
Kraven v Phoenix
Mysterio v Havok
Doc Ock v Rogue
Sandman v Iceman
Venom v Archangel
Hobgoblin v Gambit
Bishop, Havok, Iceman, Gambit and Phoenix would come out of that to fight the remaining two Sinster Six members.

[Rando]

I vote X-man2

Jean essentially nullifies Mysterio and dramatically cuts down on Venom and Kraven's effectiveness by halting any suprise attacks they may attempt. I think Archangel should beat Hobgoblin in the air, and Bishop is the perfect counter to Electro. Gambit and Havok should be able to knock Octopus down before he gets within striking distance wokring together (which is facilitated by telepathy). Rogue does general trouble shooting, helping out where needed and whooping up the stealth guys before they can become a nuisane. As is to be expected Sandman is the gretest hassle, but if he becomes an emergency Rogue can steal his powers or Jean can mentally assault him, plus Iceman can probably work something out given some time. The X-men can also pick the most advantageous matchups due to Jean's mental powers.

[Maniac_nmt]

it's a rough fight for sure, but the sinister six just bring to much to the table.

Kraven one on one can beat basically any of these Xmen, not to mention this Ock could hold off most of the team by himself.

Cyke's crew could have done it, but not this team. The Xmen loose after giving it their best.

[Mar-vell]

Originally posted by DTM
Sinister Six – Dr. Octopus (Adamantium arms), Sandman, Mysterio, Electro, Venom, Hobgoblin, Kraven

X-Men #2 – Phoenix, Gambit, Rogue, Archangel (metal wings), Havok, Bishop, Iceman (Pre Emma Frost)

Kraven vs Bishop

Sandman vs Rogue

Dr. Octopus vs Phoenix

Venom vs Archangel

Hobgoblin vs Iceman

Electro vs Havok

Mysterio vs. Gambit

After this first Round, I see only Gambit and Havok lasting. leaving them to fight Dr. Octopus, Sandman, Venom, Hobgoblin, and Kraven.

This Sinsiter Six team is NOT to be taken lightly.

Sinister Six for the win.
Ha! Are you kidding DTM?

I love these guys, but even if it were to break down into matchups as you've described them (which it won't, the Six were NEVER great as working as a team, but the X-Men are) there is no way that some of those guys you've picked win.

You actually think Kraven beats Bishop?
And Doc Ock is great, and with adamantium arms he is almost unstoppable. But he is no match for Pheonix.
And Iceman would destroy Hobgoblin.

So even if Rogue and Archangel lose, which is definitely possible even though their matches would be very close, you've got Bishop, Pheonix, Iceman, Gambit, and Havok vs. Venom and Sandman.

Again I say "HA!"

[DTM]

Originally posted by Mar-vell
Ha! Are you kidding DTM?

I love these guys, but even if it were to break down into matchups as you've described them (which it won't, the Six were NEVER great as working as a team, but the X-Men are) there is no way that some of those guys you've picked win.

You actually think Kraven beats Bishop?
And Doc Ock is great, and with adamantium arms he is almost unstoppable. But he is no match for Pheonix.
And Iceman would destroy Hobgoblin.

So even if Rogue and Archangel lose, which is definitely possible even though their matches would be very close, you've got Bishop, Pheonix, Iceman, Gambit, and Havok vs. Venom and Sandman.

Again I say "HA!"

Actually, Kraven has superhuman strength and endurance, and NO energy weapons with which to power Bishop up. Kraven WOULD beat Bishop.

Doc Ock pummeled Hulk, I think he can handle Jean Grey (remember, this is NOT Phoenix Force Phoenix, just Jean Grey with a new name)

I agree they probably wouldnt pair off like that, BUT from my pairing I definately stand by the winners I chose there.

Sheesh, are we going to have ANY Evil Teams advancing to Round 2 here?

[proditor]

I'm with Maniac_nmt on this one. I think that the Sinister Six are just too much. I'm not sure why someone said Mysterio would be negated by Phoenix...one uses mental powers, the other has more high tech illusions than the Skywalker Ranch. I actually think that gives him an edge over Phoenix as she'll be expecting mental after folks like Mastermind.

The Adamantium means that Rogue could be tied up pretty easily (She is not remotely strong enough to break out in time to avoid a thrashing once other memebers of the SS get free). I'f put Sandman up against Archangel as I can't see his neurotoxin working on a silicate body at all. Even if all everyone else does is "Hold the line" until Sandman gets free, that means he is going wreck bloddy havoc on the remaining X-men.

My vote: Sinister Six for the win.

[Maniac_nmt]

oh yeah right, Kraven would whup the snot out of Bishop. You all seem to forget he 'killed' our favorite wallcrawler, and took his place. He is physically up to Spidey's level (enhanced speed, strength, endurance, etc).

Plus, this Ock would tear through Havok and Gambit. It'll basically take the whole Xteam to stop the one of him (excluding phoenix that is), and then it's still odds on that Ock would win (again, excluding phoenix). He manhandled the FF, Hulk, Ghost Rider, Deathlok, etc. He blocks ranged shots very well, and the Adamantium Arms are not your grandma's 5 foot long stock, but more like 60+ feet long when extended.

Ock will carry the bulk of this one by his lonesome, with the others basically taking out his only threat in jean.

[Mastermind]

I see the Sinister Six taking it as well.

[thugit]

Sinister 6.

They're quite possibly the most dangerous team in the whole thing.....

[Maniac_nmt]

and that's not even getting into spidey only beats hobgoblin through his spidersense, or how whup arse Sandman would be in this environment.

The Sinister Six are not to be taken lightly.

on a side note, I would expect jean to be able to 'see through' mysterios illusions. Deathlok uses his computer to do that. Although Mastermind used to be effective vs her, so take that for what you will (I'd imagine she could realise M was putting up illusions given time, and if she could tap in enough know what was illusions, but not reach a point where she could 'see' through them).

[thugit]

I think we should call Phoenix by her real name, Jean Grey.

Otherwise, too many people assume that you're talking about the Dark Phoenix/demigod that would wipe the floor with Superman.

[Rando]

The reason that Jean counters Mysterio is that he reads his mind and finds out what the illusions are and tells her team what to ignore mentally, if not just mentally altering their preceptions so that they can't even sense the illusions. If the SS could pick very advantageous opponetns they might win this, but the probalem is that there is no guarantee that either of these teams have great familiarity with one another, that means that the SS may or may not know what to expect out of the X-men, but the X-men will defninetly know what to expect from the SS becasue of Jean's telepathy. Additionally Jean would thrash Doctor Octopus, that he beat down the Hulk is an apples to oranges comparison, Hulk needed to close up on Doc to hurt him, Jean can attack him physically from extreme distance with telekinetic force that he has no way to defend himself against, furthermore Jean can get in the air if she has to to prevent him form attacking her at all, she can also attack him mentally if she absolutely has to. While Octopus could tie up ceratin members of the x-team pretty easily the fact that the X-men can pick extremely effective counter combatants immidietly whereas the SS has to first get a feel for what they are dealing with is a big help.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

X-Men.

[oogie56]

I think there is too much being put into the Six working as a team. There downfall has always been that the egos get in the way. The best leader is Doc, but I don't see Kraven and Venom taking orders from him. He would be the one to pinpoint weakness, but the others may not listen. The X Men have two bonafide field leaders here-Havok and Bishop. Jean has also taken the role. They are a MUCH better TEAM than the Six are. That is a decided advantage in this contest.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Venom can easily beat a ton of these guys then whup on the rest of 6. Ock is extremely powerful, Sandman can just phase through a bunch of energy blasts. Kraven can equalize the poison darts of Angel, Mysterio provides excellent cover to all the guys that are stealthy, and Hobgoblin acts as the human punching bag. I recently played in a tournament where I used a bunch of these guys and I could've just whupped and won the thing--except I clicked Venom one too many clicks to KO em. You see, even in Heroclix where Hobgoblin is pure garbage, The Sinsiter Six is one of the deadliest teams--only equalled by the Fantastic Four, Avengers, JLA, and the other X-men.
Sinister Six for the win, then Venom beats the rest down.

[coad14]

x-men #2 for the win.

here is how it goes:

electro and bishop square off. electro shoots bishop, bishop walks through it and absorbs every blast till he is brimming with energy. he then drains the power electro has left (and w/o a ready power supply, he isn't recharging anytime soon). bishop then blasts hobgoblin out of the air.

sand man goes to attack iceman. iceman freezes him in place. he is done.

phoenix cats mental illusions into ock's head, making him see venom, kraven, and mysterio as the x-men. ock promptly whups his own teamamtes. (jean can produce illusions, just not as good as mastermind).

now we have the whole x-team against ock. ock will take out some members, but if he isn'y careful, Gambit will grab hold of one of his arms, charge it with kinetic energy, and boom, it blows. the adamantium would be useless against Gambit's powers as it will just make a big adamantium bomb.

Jean will then telekinetically sheild the team.

that also leaves havok, archangel, and rogue to help out where needed.

archangel would be keeping hobby busy for about 10 seconds untill he scored with the wing blades.

rogue would take down Kraven easily (he's strong, but not THAT strong). havok is the real wildcard. he is basically a walking sun. he just doesn't use deadly force.

jean could also telepathically locate mysterio if he slipped away to create an illusion. he can't hide from a telepath.

X-men have too much talent, power, and teamwork to win this. the sinister six will be fighting amongst themselves about who gets to kill who!

[Gentlegamer]

Sinister Six

[Maximcards]

the X team wins

[Maniac_nmt]

i think many of you are wrong, team work nothing for the Six, they don't even need it.

The Xmen require very very selective picks with nothing going wrong or slowing them down to win.

If they had Cyke leading the team then maybe, maybe, but they don't, they have no credible leadership in this group.

Ock could only ever loose to jean
electro would only ever loose to bishop
sandman would only ever loose to iceman
Kraven would only ever loose to Rogue (and that's debatable given the toxins he carries arround as matter of course)
and so on.

Sinister six doesn't have to have selective match ups to win.

[Prof. Aragorn]

The six's egos only got in the way to kill Spiderman, these guys are together wondering," Weren't we just about to unmask and kill Spiderman for the 100th time?"
The X-men show up and see each other.
Ock realizes that this is one of those poof battles (he was in the secret wars a while back) and the group realizes that his experience may help. Kraven goes on his own though--venom too. Hobgoblin is going out there and making explosions trying to get the energy drainers in while Dock and Venom gang up on them. Sandman--being intangible goes after rogue, Mysterio and Jean Grey play mind tricks on each other, and perhaps even gets Gambit to do some fun stuff. Electro versus Iceman is pretty much of a draw but then Hobgoblin goes in, Venom sneaks around and beats up, then...where's Kraven, some poison darts on archangel and the rest. The six only lose to Spiderman since they are a bunch of villains that have a hatred, but if they fight someone else...look out!

[UberDT]

Maniac_nmt, I think your therioes about who would win agaisnt who is off. Jean could easily beat Kraven. Havok could easily "off" Sandman. Who wants some glass? :) And I have to believe that any of the ranged flyers in the X-Men could take on Electro, since none of them are "Grounded". Granted, really only Jean could take on Ock, unless all the rest of the X-Team members teamed-up on him. Then it'd be lights out Ock.

[Magnito]

I vote X-men, but I add the SS should have included all the originals, where is Vulture?

[coad14]

havok isn't a credible leader? he isn't the greatest leader in the world, but he knows how to get the job done. bishop is also a very accomplished leader of the xse in the future. i beleive his ruthlessness would be a great asset to the team.

jean can also link the team telepathically, which will help with the teamwork.

Ock will not just lose to Jean. iceman can take him down, archangel, Gambit. just different strategies.

iceman could just freeze the mechanics inside ocks arms, or just encase ock himself in ice. Iceman can drop the temperature to near absolute zero, and this is BEFORE he was powered up!

Gambit would nearly get his head, among other body parts ripped off, but all he needs to do is just grab one of Ocks arms to charge it, the KA-BOOM, one less arm.

Archangel just needs to hit him with one wing blade to drop him, and from the air, without ock seeing him, it won't be hard.

Kraven can't penetrate Rogues' skin, so his poison darts will be useless against her. true, he is tons more skilled at being stealthy, but once he attacks, she will be all over him.

venom attacks Havok, getting real nice and close. havok then lets lose with his plasma blasts. all that is left is eddie brock, minus the symbiote. havok can radiate his plasma burts from evry direction at once, so even if venom were to grab him from behind, he would get it.

Jean can telepathically sense where Mysterio is. she then knocks him out with a psi-shot. she can also use to tk to use ocks arm against him, effectively tying himself up with them.

electro is the real powerhouse for the sinister six team. he is the most deadly, but he doesn't use his powers to the fullest that he could. he will blast bishop and keep blasting him untill it has an effect. he won't realize what he is doing untill it is to late. now we have a fully charged up Bishop.

hobgoblin is just a tie up peice, a sacraficial lamb. he will go down quickly to either of the 3 flyers.

sandman will go down to iceman or jean. he is the second biggest threat on this team.

[Rando]

Havok provides very credible leadership to this team, he has led X-factor pretty well, and teh X-men have no bad team players (except Archangel sometimes). By contrast Kraven is almost certainly going to want to go solo and do hunter style attacks, which Jean dooms to failure, In additon I see no credible way for him to harm Rogue, he has to get his toxins into her and there is no way some guy with hugh end humans strength can do that against someone of Rogue's physical defense. Electro can logiaclly be beaten bey Havoc, Havoc is just Electro with a much stronger enegry weapon and more fomralized combat training, Gambit could as well, because his ambushes are not doomed to failure, Rogue should be able to any day of the week, and Bishop definetly does. Jean or Rogue can beat Sandman easily with their emergency attacks (direct mental asault and power drain respectively). Kraven should lose to Gambit or Bishop provided Jean keeps either appraised of his position and clouds his perception, it would be difficult for him to deal with Iceman as well especially if he were using a body composed entirely of ice as opposed to just being armored in it (and he was doing that before Emma, he started after Colossus' s brother Mikhail showed him that it was possible). Venom is also a pretty serious blow to team cooperation, he's a maniac, I see him having a hard time working with anyone, Hobgoblin is also demon possed and off the deep end a bit as well.

[Maniac_nmt]

1. Havok's blasts do not create heat, so forget that idea
2. Ock had to specially design a weapon to glassify sandman, get that, specially build (not just whip out a blow torch and poof like everyone in sandman fights seem to think).
3. If sandy was ever glassed in this tourney then ock would smash him, and now those teams are fubar thanks to a massive wall of living glass shards who is really really really pissed off now.

Excuse me, but how exactly are gambit and archangel going to beat ock? He reacts with his adamantium arms as fast/faster then even spiderman with spidersense can react. What's gambit going to do? Bleed on him? He can easily parry everything they throw/shoot at him. Even if they both go for him at once, and still have arms left over to smack them silly.

Hmm..I'd like to see Iceman try to freeze the arms in place, and just watch Ock send a shower of ice shards all over the arena.

Kraven doesn't need to pierce skin for most of his toxins to work. Simple skin contact or inhalation (and cyclops beat rogue using knock out gas before, so the deadlier variety that kraven brings is sure to work).

There is a reason they beat spidey within an inch of his life for 5 issues in a row when they show up. It will take a good JLA or avengers lineup to take take the six down (or perhaps a lucky ff team, as they have experience vs the six the xmen do not).

Hobgoblin demonic brings a whole host of fire based powers (bad news mr. iceman) and other magical abilities. Otherwise he brings a whole host of incendiary devices (bad nes mr. iceman), and powerful energy weapons.

[oogie56]

Iceman has never had a problem with heat-based powers-Pyro, for example. Ock would be a problem, but it took all four of his arms to beat the Hulk, so I think it would take two or three to take out Rogue. Mysterio and Electro would fall early. Gambit would follow Rogue in to deal with Doc. Does he beat them: most likely. But he only has Kraven and Venom left to help, as Archangel has taken out Hobgolin at this point. So its like five against three. Kraven and Venom are both beatable, as Havok and Bishop could keep them away with energy blasts.

[DarthDoom]

six wins

[Prof. Aragorn]

How is Havok gonna hurt Venom and Kraven if you can't see them. Venom and Kraven are maniacs and hunters respectively. If Venom sneaks behind and attacks either Bishop or Havok--they're dead, 'nuff said. Sandman can be stealthy at times too, there in a forest remember, maybe some sand. Heck Mysterio could disguise the entire arena to look more like something else. If anything comes within touch of Electro, instantly fried unless he doesn't want them to.

[The Charlatan]

Hard to call. The Sinister...Seven(?) are no pushovers, even if the X-Men have far better teamwork. The SS usually fall against spider-Man because their egos get in the way ("I get it kill him!" "No, I do!" "WE want to eat his brains!"), that isn't the case here. Plus those adamantium arms really boost up Doc Ock's threat level.

A tenative vote for the SS.

[Macho Man]

Doc Oc is going to cream any one who comes close or even far for that matter. Hobgoblin can go home for all I care but in the jungle is where Kraven does his best work. Sandman can attack first cause its going to take more then one X-man to take him out. well anyhow Sinnister Six take victory.

[Prof. Aragorn]

The Sinister Six work best when not vying for the one that kills Spidey. When not arguing over that, they gang up on good guys and cream em. Of course they're are sacrificial lambs <koff-Hobgoblin>

[dj_sha]

I think that, with the proper teamwork, the Sinister Six is a very capable team. Though I love the X-Men, the Sinister Six win this one.

[bluebeetle]

x-men

[DreadDormammu]

Iceman and Rogue are both bears to deal with. Havok and Phoenix bring a lot of raw power to the table. As much as this Sinister Six team has some difficult members, I think it is going down. I think Iceman is good answer for Sandman and that is probably the biggest single factor in me voting for:

X-Men #2

[Rando]

So long as Jean Grey is still operational then there will be no sneaking around and no disguising of anything, so long as Venom, or Kraven, or Mysterio, or Sandman know where they, themselves are and what they are doing then so does Jean Grey, and therefore, so do the rest of her team. She cannot be taken out quickly, as she often places herself inside a telekinetic shield, and flys around. If this battle becomes a life threatening situation for any of her friends she will not hesisitate to use her mental powers to mind control or just knock out the SS, and they have no credible defense against the one of the top 5 telepaths on the planet.

[Prof. Aragorn]

It's gonna be hard to help out your teammates, and clock Venom who is in many ways, difficult to mind control, and Kraven when Mysterio's playing mind tricks on ya, Doc Ock's gunnin to 'hand you yer head' and Sandman seeps through the force field since he's living sand. That's what the sinister six do, while they're busy ganging up on the tougher opponents, the sacrificial lambs <koff-Hobgoblin> will be distracting everyone else.

[malreux]

I think that DTM is is being uncharitable in some of his match ups for this fight:) My first arguement for the x-men victory here is the same one that x-force supporters used but substituting Bishop for Cable. Bishop has an ability to be very ruthless, and going back to his xse, was used to quickly evaluating the powers of unknown enemies and come up with logical counters. Here are a few

Doc Ock-dont know much about his toughness or blocking abilities. I would think it would be tough for him to block a Havok plasma blast that was big enough, but since I dont know, I would just take him down with a telepathic or telekinetic assault from Jean, should be no defense.

Sandman-A controversial powerhouse. I had always thought Havok fired plasma, and was described as such, which would in fact produce enough heat to fuse Sand. People have mentioned the flying glass problems so I would go a step furthur and sublimate him into Gas man. Since his ability to do these will be argued, probably just easier to have Rogue grab him. This would probably take her out for most of the fight as well, since tended to have trouble dealing with disorienting physical transformation powers

Electro-COme on, this is a straght up Bishop fight, over quick and easy, Bishop can help out his buddies after

With Kraven and Venom hiding and waiting for a chance to sneak attack someone, Iceman, Archangel, and Havok against Hobgoblin and Myseterio. I think Jean can spare enough attention to find out from the horses mouth what illusions Mysterio is using, and to broadcast positions on Kraven and Venomso x-folk can avoid them until they have mopped up the rest. Then a quick tk grab to get them in the air and a set of ranged attack from the x-folk take the victory

[malreux]

Forgot Gambit, so throw him in there. Also, seems like if you had to throw someone into the woods to look for Kraven, Iceman would be the way to go, good offense, and terribly hard to damage with darts OR contact poisons.

[coad14]

and there is a stream nearby. what if Jean were to telekinetically pick up sandman (he cannot get out of a tk grip, or get through a "force feild") and drop him in the river/stream, then, iceman freezes the river/stream. sandman is out.

every other thread where there is a telepath, the team with the telepath one because the other said team "didn't/doesn't have a counter or resistance to mental attacks". this should apply to this team as well. seeing as how Jean is in the top 3 telepaths in the world, nobody can hide their thoughtd from her on this team.havok could wipe all the terrain from this location if he wanted to. he is more destructive in power than cyclops. Doc Ock will not be able to block enough of his plasma blast tp stop it from hitting him and getting the ko.

jean could just mind control anybody on the other team to attack their teammates. it has happend with other telepaths in these threads, why can't it work here?:ermm:

there are three people on this x-team that could almost beat the entire other team: iceman, Jean Grey, and Rogue.

Rogue can just fly by Electro, touch him, absorb his powers, and use them against doc ock. now ock has been electrocuted, and is out of the game. or jean could mind control electro to attack ock. same end result.

this sinister six team would have been a good match up for the other x-team, but this one just is too much in the end. too many people able to beat the others.

[Silver Lantern]

I'll take the Ultimate...err Sinister Six.

[Sgt.Hatch]

I agree that this will be a close match, and no one should claim that either team will wipe the floor with the other. Ock, venom, and sandman are serious contenders. I don't see why people are giving kraven and electro so much attention. For my vote I have to rely on the x-men's team work and my love of all things X.

The sinister do not have a good defense for jean (please don't say mysterio, not even close to her level).

Ock may be able to defend from direct shots, but how about energy explosions. If gambit throws some cards at the ground near ock can he defend from the wave of force coming at him? It would seem that he would have to wrap all his arms around his body instantly inorder not to be blown., does he do this? Can his body (not arms) take on powerful explosions.

Plus many are under looking gambit's stealth and agility.

Between bishop and jean some good strategies will be use to take the sinister.

Too much range and flight on x-men team.

For these reasons and others people mentioned,
I vote x-men.

[kamui]

My vote: Tough Choice

I honestly can't make a decision. I think both teams are very equal in what they have to offer.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by coad14


Rogue can just fly by Electro, touch him, absorb his powers, and use them against doc ock. now ock has been electrocuted, and is out of the game. or jean could mind control electro to attack ock. same end result.

There's a problem with that, anyone who comes near electro and electro doesn't want them near him, there instantly fried. She persists and she's even furtherly fried.

[Prof. Aragorn]

And besides, Venom can easily trash Spiderman AND the sinister six without too much struggle, Venom is nearly an unstoppable force and the symbiote is very intelligent. It will figure out the strengths of the X-people and then tell Brock to do what he does best--eat brains.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
There's a problem with that, anyone who comes near electro and electro doesn't want them near him, there instantly fried. She persists and she's even furtherly fried.

She's got Ms Marvel level invulnerability. Nothing is going to be instant enough to keep her from absorbing his powers (and thus immunity).

[ace]

how powerful is phoenix? (for further matches)

I can see her taking out doc ock, and mysterio, iceman handes sandman, bishop will take care of elektro, rogue and gambit can take out hobgoblin and Kraven, ANd venom will be taken by the entire team.

The sinister seven is a good team, but a bad draw to a ranged x men team. (Also even if Kraven fought Bishop, Bishop is one tough cookie from the future, and an excellent fighter.

X MEN 2

[coad14]

phoenix in this tourny is just Jean Grey, w/o th ephoenix force force. she is in the top 3 for telepaths in the world.

number 1 is shadow king, number 2 is xavier.

[Nick Fury Fan]

My vote goes to the Sinester Six.

[Q99]

I vote we re-name 'Pheonix' as Jean Grey in the next round, to prevent confusion.


I like the combination of power and flight the X-men have (I can definitely see them, instead of X team 1, taking on the Legion). It's a good team with lots of power and plenty of tricks, with the tactical advantage of flight being the swing (And btw, this is Metal-wing Archangel, who's wings can go on fighting even after he's KOed, yes?), so they get my vote after a fairly rough fight, they emerge the victors.

[Nighthawk]

X-Men

[Gorrack]

I vote X Men here. Doc Ock isn't bad, and hands down the Six's best weapon, but Jean can take him out, and take him out BAD. If Doc goes out, the fights basically over. Jeans mental abilities are too much, and the X-men work well enough as a team, especially with this environment where the stealthy atmosphere benefits them only as Jean knows where everyone is and can tell everyone else the same. Sandman Venom and Ock are the only real threats, and if the X-men took to the air its not even a close fight. Honestly. Than Jean just has to pick them off one by one. The X-men have more unity and the telepath. HUGE advantage that is too much. Archangel is pretty wicked too, and I still say he can take Venom, as Venom would have no way to get to him if he were smart.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Doc Ock is only really impressive agains a no-ranger or pure brawler. What's he going to do as he starts getting coated in ice? At first, he breaks it of, but it reforms faster than he can break it, and before long he has no leverage to get loose.

Or, Jean mind-zaps him.


Or, Archangel shoots him from distance.

How is he supposed to hurt the flyers?

(And I agree with whoever said that this X-Men team is a better match for the LSH)

[Q99]

Hmm... Havok has Plasma.

And plasma is basically fire, only specifically very, very hot fire....

I don't think Venom will like that too well.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Ocks not going to just stand there and get frozen, he's gonna snap the ice off, leap up to the fliers with the tenticles and bore em to death. Or be enough of a distraction so some of the other heavy weights can really mess around with the opponents.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

My point is I don't think he could shed the ice faster than Iceman makes it.

And Iceman can do this at pretty far range, so he doesn't have to be within Doc's leaping range.

How does Doc leap up to the fliers?

[coad14]

what if Jean shuts down doc ocks ability to contro lthe arms telepathically? then what? he is out with a simple punch to the head. the x-men have a definate flight and mobility advanatge over the sinister six. they only have hobgoblin, and he will be taken out very quickly. that means that in the air we will have rogue, jean, and archangel. 2 of them can attach from distances. rogue has to get in close, but with her invulnerability, she is terriblly hard to hurt. so she will do kamikazie dives at however is the most dangerous of targets at the moment.

and i have never, ever seen ock use his arms to "leap" into the air. how is he supposed to hit warren or jean, again?

[GoldenAge]

Don't forget - It's possible that Ock's arms will continue to battle even after he's unconscious. So, even if Jean gives him the mental whammy she may be assaulted (and even killed) by the arms. Personally, I think too much responsibility is being heaped on Jean's shoulders. She's rarely able to do more than keep a psychic rapport between her team and battle one major threat at a time. So, if she's busy with Ock, she'll loose contact with Kraven and Venom.

Oh, BTW - I don't think for a second that she'll have any advantage against Mysterio's illusions either. Sure, if she has the time to refocus on Mysterio after defeating Ock (assuming that Ock's last mental command to his tentacles wasn't KILL JEAN) and she finds the time to reveal the location of both Kraven and Venom... THEN she can invade Mysterio's mind and find out... yup, they sure are illusions. But that knowledge alone doesn't allow her to see through Mysterio's maniacal mechanical misdirection. She'll still be vulnerable to several of his trucks. Mysterio will have Iceman and Havok shooting at shadows… or each other… all day. These two X-Men are experienced in team situations, but not so much with each other.

Havok's blasts are indeed plasma. The concussions they cause are due to the sudden explosive force released by superheating the air or whatever he's shooting. He's a super powerhouse but just a normal guy susceptible to a thrown dagger from the shadows; same goes for Jean and Gambit.

Speaking of Gambit, no one has mentioned that he’s just as familiar with the shadows as Kraven. I foresee an interesting cat and mouse sidebar between these two from which Kraven emerges victorious.

Bishop is the key for the X-Men and it all comes down to who attacks whom. If Bishop is luckily enough to get blasted by Electro then the X-men stand a better chance, but I don’t see this happening. It’s Venom that Bishop will have to contend with… and the symbiote will make short work of the future man. Meanwhile Electro will be gunning for the highflying lightning rod. Angel’s metal wings make him too juicy a target for Electro. Though Angel is rarely grounded Electro’s blasts still pack quite a punch.

Then there’s Sandman. Havok’s blasts aren’t capable of melting Sandman. It would take a widespread, sustained heat for that and only a few heroes in this tournament have that ability. So…. The remaining X-Men, if there are any, are in for quite a sandstorm!

Sinister Six win!

[Prof. Aragorn]

Exactly.

[coad14]

ocks arms don't work unless he is in control of them. take away the control, and they are lifeless. as foe jeam barely being able to keep in telepathic contact while in the midle of battle, have you read some fo the comics she is in? (not a flame, i swear:) ) she is very adept at multitasking her power between doing many things. she cannot use her tk at the same time as her telepathy effectively, but she can still do it.
she covers herself in a tk shield all the time, and it can stop attacks from magneto. you think she is going to have a hard time against weaker opponents? the only way to beat jean is to swarm her. she an only shield herself for so long, but it is still a powerful shield, and will take a long time to go down.

archangel is incredibly hard to hit when he is flying, he can reach mach 3. electro is fast, but not that fast. true, warren isn't going to be going that fast while manuevering, but he won't have to. the x-men will see what electro can do, and send either rogue or bishop, maybe both to deal with him. those two will take care of him easily.

as i have said before, iceman can take care of sandman easily, probablly the best in this tourny to do so. he can freeze him, and as soon as he is frozen, he is done.

i would like DTM to clarify 1 thing:

once a member of a team has been immobilized, ko'ed, whatever it takes to get a win in a 1-1 contest, are they barred from moving/acting again in said fight. that will make a big difference. in the venom/archangel thread, it was ruled that once the person is ko'ed, the wings/symbiote are done as well. just want to know that if say iceman were to be ko'ed, would he be removed immediatly from the playing field? that way, know one can "awake" from the ko to help fight again.

care to answer DTM?:) thanks

[green_knight]

Golden Age! Good to see you back!

I vote for the Sinister Six as well. Nothing more needs to be said for me after GA's breakdown.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Physical attacks cannot penetrate Jean's forcefield, but what about mental attacks ala illusions of that of Mysterio?

[coad14]

his attacks arn't mental, they are physical illusions from the gas he pumps. it would have to be around her, inside her tk bubble to effect her. the only reason that mastermind did what he did was a) his illusions are telepathic in nature, he sends them right into your head, and b)he had the white queens help while doing it. she was there to make the illusions look like flashbacks.

jean is probably the most powerful X-man, excluding, of course X-man, and Xavier, but she makes up for it with will power and courage. she does not go down easily at all, and could beat this whole sinister six team by herself, if she was ruthless enough. she could fry every synapse in each and every one of their brains. she won't of course, therefore needs the help of her teammates to win. but she is the one that will win it for the X-team

[hydro-man]

i vote x-men 2

[Gambit]

X-Men 2

[coad14]

24-15 for the x-men

[Nightcrawler94]

Originally posted by DTM
Sinister Six – Dr. Octopus (Adamantium arms), Sandman, Mysterio, Electro, Venom, Hobgoblin, Kraven

X-Men #2 – Phoenix, Gambit, Rogue, Archangel (metal wings), Havok, Bishop, Iceman (Pre Emma Frost)

Kraven vs Bishop

Sandman vs Rogue

Dr. Octopus vs Phoenix

Venom vs Archangel

Hobgoblin vs Iceman

Electro vs Havok

Mysterio vs. Gambit

After this first Round, I see only Gambit and Havok lasting. leaving them to fight Dr. Octopus, Sandman, Venom, Hobgoblin, and Kraven.

This Sinsiter Six team is NOT to be taken lightly.

Sinister Six for the win.

Only Havok and Gambit lasting? Phoenix can easily kill Ock. Ock cant reach a flier. Bishop wont win against Kraven, but pair him against Electro, he absorbs all attacks and obliterates. Venom can probably take Archangel, but Angel will hurt him considerably for another X-Man to take him out. Iceman freezes Hobgoblin, or if he cant hit him with an Ice beam, he just freezes up an ice sheild until he can connect. Havok cant beat Kraven either, but after the one-on-one battles, Phoenix easily obliterates his mind. Sandman may weaken Rogue a lot, but Rogue even touches Sandy, and he's down, and with all the X-Men left, they can take down Venom, Kraven, and Sandman. Thats how I see the battle, and I vote X-Men

[Maniac_nmt]

actually physical attacks can break through jean's forcefields, provided they are sustained enough, or strong enough (or posses some other characteristic that allows them to, such as Ahab's spear).

1. This iceman has been repetadely shown to #### hardcore vs incindiary devices (see Xmen issue 1 where he gets trashed by simple incindiary rockets.) Hobgobblin brings lots of fire and heat based attack in either his possed/demon state or his regular state. He could and would whup iceman.

2. Ock beats down on flyers all the time. It's a mountain forest on the first hand, so that kills a lot of the flying advantage right there, second he moves much faster then spidey with his arms, he'd have no trouble nabbing ANY of these fliers right out of the air and beating the snot out of them (cause as soon a single tentcle grabs hold, it's game over man, and it will happen).

3. I seriously doubt rogue's touch will even effect Sandman in his sand form. If he were in human form, sure, but not in his dispersed sand/fighting mode. I think that's one of the least plausible ways to deal with him.

4. Jean is certainly not tough to take out. She's as ruthless as a tulip. I read Xmen for years, along with Xfactor. She's neither vicious, nor vindictive. She could be a threat, but she isn't frankly.

5. Do any of the Xmen have rubber suits? I thinkest not, and other then bishop that means flash fried Xmen vs Electro.

None of the fliers are a threat to Ock, not if the human torch wasn't worth jack against this ock, while he was dealing with a team twice this size, with multiple ranged combatants in the mix as well.

[Maniac_nmt]

actually, rogue absorbing Electro's powers would be

a. hard because he's got a full body costume
b. bad because then she'd be shooting electricity out all over the bloody place.

in I believe spidey 450 spidey hits electro and goofs up the power discharge causing him to build up an uncontrollable outburst. Rogue has no control over the power (she's actually been shown to be consumed, or overtaken by powers she can't control, doesn't understand).

All the sinister six have at least limited ranged attacks. Electro has powerful long range, or area affect, Ock can clear a good 60-80 feet with his arms (plus all the trees and boulders to through). Venom brings his suit and webbing, hobgoblin is got serious ranged firepower. Kraven carries darts, knives, etc. Sandman can extend out to very long range in this environment, and so on.

Plus, all of the Six are fairly highly damage resistant. Venom can take a shotgun from pointblank and not be scratched (and Venom also aced Archangel already in a past tourney match), Ock has indestructible arms which he moves with blitzkrieg speed, and terrifying accuracy. Hobgoblin in his human form wore armor, and had enhanced strength, stamina, and durability. In his demon form he's more damage resistant. Kraven has all his physical attributes enhanced, including durability. Electro seems to generate some sort of field about himself which reduces the damage dealt to him. Mysterio's costume is also a mild form of body armor.

They bring more raw power, still have range on their side, better overall durability, and the fact they smack arround a guy who has danced through whole Xteams before.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
actually physical attacks can break through jean's forcefields, provided they are sustained enough, or strong enough (or posses some other characteristic that allows them to, such as Ahab's spear).

1. This iceman has been repetadely shown to #### hardcore vs incindiary devices (see Xmen issue 1 where he gets trashed by simple incindiary rockets.) Hobgobblin brings lots of fire and heat based attack in either his possed/demon state or his regular state. He could and would whup iceman.

2. Ock beats down on flyers all the time. It's a mountain forest on the first hand, so that kills a lot of the flying advantage right there, second he moves much faster then spidey with his arms, he'd have no trouble nabbing ANY of these fliers right out of the air and beating the snot out of them (cause as soon a single tentcle grabs hold, it's game over man, and it will happen).

3. I seriously doubt rogue's touch will even effect Sandman in his sand form. If he were in human form, sure, but not in his dispersed sand/fighting mode. I think that's one of the least plausible ways to deal with him.

4. Jean is certainly not tough to take out. She's as ruthless as a tulip. I read Xmen for years, along with Xfactor. She's neither vicious, nor vindictive. She could be a threat, but she isn't frankly.

5. Do any of the Xmen have rubber suits? I thinkest not, and other then bishop that means flash fried Xmen vs Electro.

None of the fliers are a threat to Ock, not if the human torch wasn't worth jack against this ock, while he was dealing with a team twice this size, with multiple ranged combatants in the mix as well.
There's still Kraven, Venom, and Mysterio as well. Mysterio would work well confusing the X-men for a bit, long enough for Venom and Kraven to get the drop on some others and Venom is constantly growing in strength, he could take down Jean's force field in time if Doc and Hobs provide enough distraction with Electro french frying anyone coming near him and Sergi beating on Bishop.

[Manchine]

Sinister Six!

[Numb Skrull]

Sinister six can win this.
I read people are saying that there is no good leadership in the SS and they have big egos. Well the X-men #2 does not have any good leaders that will give them any good advantages. If they had cyclops it would have been different. Jean Grey shields can be shattered by Doc octs arms easily since he did throw down with the Hulk with those. Bishop can be beaten by kraven easily as well. The only problem with this team is that they always loose since they are bad guys. The X-men don't stand a chance they are just more popular. Venom fights just like sabretooth and for all you x-men fans remember when Sabretooth almost took down this exact same team. He pierced angels METAL wings messed up jean grey and the rest, they eventually won, but it took the whole team. I picture venom creating the same problem, the difference is that venom has six people to back him up. NO WAY X-MEN will win this so revote for sinister six and bring this bad guy group to the next round where they belong.
Of course My vote is for the Sinister Six

[Dalandow]

X-men

[coad14]

if you guys want to use the hulk beating example, how about havok kicking hulks' butt? or when gambit knocked gladiator out (someone who can take out juggernaut)? if you want to use those reasons, mine are just as valid.

tell me why bishop would go after kraven, when the x-team will obviously notice the mismatch of bishop fighting electro. also, jean has telekinetically held off the entire imperial guard for a couple minutes, w/o the phoenix powers. how you think that she is weak is beyond me.

and the whole, x-men don't have good leaders, what about havok. leads x-factor quite well. he isn't the best leader, but he is better than ock will be at orginizing his troops. also, bishop is an accomplished leader from his days at the XSE.

venom=sabretooth? by that assesment, gambit will own him, as gambit has beat sabretooth many times more than he has lost to him.

one other factor that needs to be considered in this battle: the combatants start out far away from each other. in this terrain, there will be no way the sinister six will know who the enemy is before the x-men do. if they send hobgoblin to scout, the 3 flyers on the x-team will take him out quickly. Jean can scan the sinister six and know their powers and abilities, and can make match-ups that suit them before the fight even begins.

technically, because of the flight advantage, they should win automatically. the other x-team lost because they couldn't reach the legion. it may be a mountain range, but how can non-flyers reach flyers? the dome is 1 mile high. nobody can reach anyone that high. they have range advantage the whole match! Jean can telepathically attack anyone, at anytime, and not have to worry about retaliation. 60-80 feet does not = 1 mile.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
5. Do any of the Xmen have rubber suits? I thinkest not, and other then bishop that means flash fried Xmen vs Electro.

In fact Electro is quite prone to fits of chaotic insanity during combat. I wouldn't be surprised if he let loose so many electrical bursts that the entire mountainside became engulfed in a torrent of flame.

Now we have the teams enveloped by and fighting within in a raging forest fire!

Such a situation would surely hamper any teamwork the X-Men might have enjoyed at the onset of this battle and place the advantage squarely in the hands of the Sinister Six… if it were to happen, that is.

It sure would make for great cinema though, wouldn't it? :cool:

[ca551u5]

The X Men are going to put up one heck of a fight, but I can see the Sinister 6 taking this one. Venom is simply a close combat machine, and none of the X-bunnies are going to be able to survive toe-to-toe with him. Electro can let loose with some serious fryage against the flyers, Sandman is both nasty in a fight and virtually indestructible, and Dr Octopus can tear apart almost anyone/thing with his arms. So much raw power means that the 6 wins this.

And by the way, Sandy has been fused before. It just makes him slower, temporarily, and really makes him mad.

[UsagiYojimbo]

YOSHI DOMO XANG SUZUKI (subtitle) my vote is for sinnister six

[odieses]

I vote for sinister 6 here,


I see it like this kraven and Venom use stealth to sneak up on the xmen while the rest of the 6 attack, focusing on Jean Grey. Im sure Doc Ock is smart enough to know something about the x-men and Jean is the biggest threat. Mysterio uses illusions to distract jean from venom using his camoflauge long enough for venom to grab her and break her neck(these are villians here). Then mysterios illusions will completely destroy any team chemistry will the 6 pick off the rest of the team individually. This is how i see it happening as Doc Ock is one of those villians who seem to have it all planned out always, im not talking like a doom level planning level he just has a contigency plan for most situations. Another reason for why the SS would win is because of Sandman, he could take half the team by himself and the Adamantium Doc ock with him is disgusting. The energy projectors could easily be taken care of by the rest of the SS. Alla Havok gets hurt by kraven sneaking up on him and tearing into him which lures iceman into electros blast or Hobgoblins laser fingers or pumpkin bomb. Heroes weakness a hurt fellow hero, which leads me into another point, One hostage say an unconscious havok and the x-men would give up because they dont want to see havok get killed in front of them. Shoot they might not even need to do that with mysterio who could make it an illusion that they captured a teammate. Ok i think im done ill come up with some more scenerios later but i think you all get the jest of it.

SINISTER 6 WINS

[Iceman425]

I really have to go with the X-Squad here.

I have seen the Sinister Six in action numerous times and they function individually for the most part. The X-Men however, do not.

Everyone likes to break these matches down on a one on one basis, and I'm sorry that's not what team vs. team means to me.

The team with the better interaction/communication/leadership is gonna win on a regular basis here. Havok has lead more than one group, Jean is quite capable, and Bishop lead a future XSE that was an incredibly militarized group.

The intelligence levels of the X-Men will come into play as well. For whatever cunning/guile that Kraven may hold, Gambit equals that. Viciousness, look at Bishop. Raw power, look at Iceman and Havok. Mental powers look at Jean. This X-team is well built.

I think Bishop would immediately notice that Electro is the energy projector and goad Electro into taking a shot at him. Once Bishop is powered up there are 4 energy projectors on the X-Squad + a Telekinetic + Archangel (w/his ranged nueral immobolizing razors) + Rogue. Honestly, who has the real advantage here?

As I said initially, I don't see this as being a one on one fight for the X-Squad. However, I do see the Sinister Six performing one on one actions.

If Hobgoblin is taking off after Warren then Jean can just telekinetically pull the glider out from under him....game over for Hobby. After that happens you have a full-strength X-Squad vs. the Sinister Five, with Electro and Hobgoblin down.

If we are gonna make Venom out to be the end all ("He'll kill all the X-Men and then take out the rest of the Six...c'mon") then he doestn't belong in this tournament.

Although, if we're gonna allow the Six to get this pumped up, then I'm gonna let you know something fun about Gambit. He has before, and is very capable of charges up any inatimate object, or should I say inorganic objects. Why wouldn't he be able to take care of Doc Oc by charging up his arms. I've seen him charge up whole vehicles before, as well as weapons of his opponents. Man, that would get messy, real quick. How does Gambit do it? Bobby puts Doc Oc on ice momentarily and Gambit charges the block of ice up....end of story. Now, that's TEAMWORK!!!

I know that the Sinister Six has strengths, and they are formidable, but their strengths do not lie in a team vs. team tourney when teamwork is what is gonna pull you through.

The X-Men walk away with this one.

[odieses]

The reason why i break it down individually is i think mysterio will make the x-men fight one on one or fight each other. Yeah jean has mental powers but Mysterios powers arent projected from his mind but from his technology. So she cant see through them. She would know the guy in front of her isnt Doc ock because of her mental link but the guy would still look like Ock and hence the illusions served its purpose, To hide the sinister 6's movements. They pounce on jean and take her out of the fight and the x-men are stuck in a world of illusions and without jean its done with(Yes i think Doc Ock would have some general plan on fighting the x-men and thats a really general plan right there)

[Iceman425]

I don't see Mysterio figuring in here at all. The constant telepathic communication between the X-sters is gonna have them realizing the illusion is fake before you can fill Mysterio's domed head with smoke.

[Macho Man]

Jean won't be able to protect herself, the team and mount a good offence. Jean not only has to be aware of Illusions but stealth hunters. The terrain says that they will be on the prowl. Electro will attack all airborn foes and Rouges style is to go attack the heavy hitters (Doc Oc and Sandman)

[coad14]

the problem with Mysterio's illusions are that he has to release a gas from his costume. this gas serves as the catalyst when people inhale them. given the fact that they start so far away from each other, Jean will have telepathically scanned them and know who they are, what they do, their weaknesses, etc, etc. so, Mysterio starts to release his illusion gas, Jean tells iceman to freeze it. no illusions!


nobody has answered how the non-flying members of the sinister six are going to reach the flying members of the X-men. answer: they CAN'T! in this enviorment, Gambit is going to have unlimited ammuntion to use against them, he can charge anything and everything. i believe a ko is counted if sandman is dispersed or severly immoblized, so gambit throw lots of charged objects into him to slow him down, while iceman freezes him solid. that counts as sandman being ko'ed, and out for the rest of the battle. because of the psi-scan, bishop will knwo that electro should be his target, so he will manuever Electro into attacking him. Bishop will absorb all the punishment and energy, and then knock him out with a single punch. Bishop is now fully charged, and he will take a shot at Doc Ock. Ocks' arms are good at deflectingprojectiles, but i personally have never seen him deflect widespread energy attacks, which will come from both bishop and Havok.

Hobgoblin will, of course, be flying around. but Archangel will have him busy. warren will play cat-and-mouse for a while, trying to get a shot with his feathers. Archangel is more manueverable than hobby is, so warren will set him up to run into a barrage of feathers, taking him out.

Rogue will be trying to keep Ock busy as well, but she will be more of a floater. helping whoever needs it at the moment.

Jean will be telepathically shutting off Ock's control of his arms, so they no longer respond. they hang limply from their harness. he goes down with a punch from Rogue.

Sandman has one of the worst match-ups here. he goes against icemna, and he becomes frozen solid. another ko for the x-team.

Jean will also be continuously psi-scanning the area for venom and kraven. THEY. CANNOT. SNEAK. UP. ON. HER. PERIOD.

once they are found, Jean will grab them and lift them with her tk, allowing Havok to nail them with his plasma blasts. it will ko Kraven, but Venom will still be kicking. now, it is the entire X-team against venom. he will again try to attack them form ambush, but it will fail. he will fall in the end.

you say he is like sabretooth, well, the x-men train with Wolvie. they know how to take care of themselves against guys like this.

odieses, you think that Mysterio will make the x-men fight one another? Jean can do it better and faster.:)

[Macho Man]

Bishop will be a threat if venom or Kraven don't get him first. The SS can lose a member in battle but if X-men do it will mean their slow defeat from the six.

[Macho Man]

I cannot see jean being able to do all that at once without getting a pumpkin bomb or an electric bolt or evev a tentical for her KO.

[coad14]

Originally posted by Macho Man
I cannot see jean being able to do all that at once without getting a pumpkin bomb or an electric bolt or evev a tentical for her KO.

she does it all the time in the comics, why not here?

[Macho Man]

Jean is famous for losing her composure when the heat is on to thick.

[coad14]

Originally posted by Macho Man
Jean is famous for losing her composure when the heat is on to thick.

do you have some examples? serious. i don't remember having read any comics with her that she "loses her composure when the heat is on thick"

if you have some examples, i will be willing to believe you more. till then, i am set in the way i see this battle.:)

[techdog]

I am going with the Six here. I like the ability to surprise the x-men by Sandman, Kraven and Venom(all are excellent at pulling the blending into the enviornment and popping out to take someone down). I also like Ock as the leader, and when the Six follow him, they are quite formadible. I don't think Jean is going to be as big a factor as people think. She is wonderful when kept in the back for support, but she is also easily taken by surprised(easily for a menatlist anyway) and falls fast. I think that the enviorment and the Stealth Surprises will help the Six win.

[Macho Man]

Originally posted by coad14
she does it all the time in the comics, why not here? She has never faced the six in the comics but the debate works both ways

[mbufu]

X-Men

[Iceman425]

Here is the thing Macho Man. Jean doesn't have to do all of these things, the X-Men are a team. The scan will happen when the Poof initially happens. Bishop will know ahead of time that he needs to take Electro first. Archangel will draw Hobby into Jeans TK range early in the fight and there goes his glider. The Six's weakness is their inability to work as a team, even when they have a plan in place beforehand. This is a poof and go battle. Suits the X-Team, who is familiar with this type of fight, much more than the Sinister ones.

The rest of the squad will also be looking out for Jean. The Sinister Six are a very powerful team, but they just ran up against a great team that matches up extremely well with them.

X-Men are still the vote to take.

[coad14]

i only complaint i have is that in the other 2 battles that had a telepath, (one of which is BELOW Jean, power-wise), both those teams got votes because the telepath would be able to beat anybody w/o mental defenses, even mind control opponents to attack their own teammates.

why the sudden change of voting style? Jean is more powerful than Emma is, but people seem to admit that Emma will win the whole fight for their team.

this fight is just like the hellfire/maruaders fight.

we have 2 teams, one with a powerful telepath, which automatically gives the one team the advanatge, and the other, a bunch of crazy, psycopathic murderers w/o any mental defense. difference is that the maruades work better as a team than the six do.


go figure?:)

[thecriminal415]

X-men #2

[Numb Skrull]

Macho man has a great point and thats why i already voted for SS, X-men will be dampened when they loose a person. The SS are used to going at it alone. Venom is a threat all by himself same as Doc Oct. Even if you dont put the people one on one the sinister six will still win. They have several people that can take out a lot of the x-men at a time. Venom can take out archangel and Bishop.

[UsagiYojimbo]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Don't forget - It's possible that Ock's arms will continue to battle even after he's unconscious. So, even if Jean gives him the mental whammy she may be assaulted (and even killed) by the arms. Personally, I think too much responsibility is being heaped on Jean's shoulders. She's rarely able to do more than keep a psychic rapport between her team and battle one major threat at a time. So, if she's busy with Ock, she'll loose contact with Kraven and Venom.

Oh, BTW - I don't think for a second that she'll have any advantage against Mysterio's illusions either. Sure, if she has the time to refocus on Mysterio after defeating Ock (assuming that Ock's last mental command to his tentacles wasn't KILL JEAN) and she finds the time to reveal the location of both Kraven and Venom... THEN she can invade Mysterio's mind and find out... yup, they sure are illusions. But that knowledge alone doesn't allow her to see through Mysterio's maniacal mechanical misdirection. She'll still be vulnerable to several of his trucks. Mysterio will have Iceman and Havok shooting at shadows… or each other… all day. These two X-Men are experienced in team situations, but not so much with each other.

Havok's blasts are indeed plasma. The concussions they cause are due to the sudden explosive force released by superheating the air or whatever he's shooting. He's a super powerhouse but just a normal guy susceptible to a thrown dagger from the shadows; same goes for Jean and Gambit.

Speaking of Gambit, no one has mentioned that he’s just as familiar with the shadows as Kraven. I foresee an interesting cat and mouse sidebar between these two from which Kraven emerges victorious.

Bishop is the key for the X-Men and it all comes down to who attacks whom. If Bishop is luckily enough to get blasted by Electro then the X-men stand a better chance, but I don’t see this happening. It’s Venom that Bishop will have to contend with… and the symbiote will make short work of the future man. Meanwhile Electro will be gunning for the highflying lightning rod. Angel’s metal wings make him too juicy a target for Electro. Though Angel is rarely grounded Electro’s blasts still pack quite a punch.

Then there’s Sandman. Havok’s blasts aren’t capable of melting Sandman. It would take a widespread, sustained heat for that and only a few heroes in this tournament have that ability. So…. The remaining X-Men, if there are any, are in for quite a sandstorm!

Sinister Six win! Also without spiderman for the six to argue about then this plan will work out quite well

[dragon504]

I'll vote sinister six

[coad14]

HELLO? DOES ANYONE EVEN READ MY POSTS? AARGH!! NOBODY LISTENS!! TELEPATH VS NO MENTAL RESISTANCE?
ANYONE SEE WHAT I'M SAYING?:laugh: :p :laugh: :p

[Numb Skrull]

The teams may be even with people, but the x-men have useless people on their team. Gambit and Ice man will be taken out quickly either by venom or doc oct. The doc can crush iceman into little pieces with one swing. That leaves 5 people left against 7. venom will go after angel knowing he has a good chance against flying characters, kraven can then go against bishop, Doc being the conceited leader will go against Jean seeing that she is probably one of the most powerful ones there and he wants all the glory. This is could for him since this form of him can be able to do enough damage that will knock her out quick. People have been saying Havok will knock out sandman...I don't know how but i will give them the benefit of the doubt and say havok beats sandman. That leaves Havok and rogue fighting against the rest of the six. Rogue can't steal any powers now. They are all humans. She can maybe steal electro's powers but then that will mess her up since he has an uncontrale power that he can barely control. She goes crazy and knocks herself out. Now Havok stands alone...yeah he goes down quick. I really want to see the six advance so i wont stop arguing till they win

[UsagiYojimbo]

Also Doc Oc has made sure the rest of the six never forget who's the leader. This is not ultamate six where Oc and Gobbie fight eachother.

[coad14]

i wanna see my x-team win. so i wouldn't stop arguing till THEY win!:p

[Silver Ghost]

I'm pretty sure HAVOK could turn Sandman to glass - in an issue of uncanny around #130(? don't ask me to look it up!) HAVOK wanders out onto a beach and he's really upset for some reason - don't ask me why - so he sends up a big flare of plasma into the sky. The sand around him within a 50 metre radius is fused into glass - and that's not even a direct hit - that's him shooting into the AIR!!!

My 2 Cents.

[Silver Ghost]

sorry - that should be uncanny x-men 230, not 130.

It's late and I'm tired.:knockedou

[coad14]

it may be late silver ghost, but your agruements are most welcome. i need help to convince people that Jean can beat them! help me!

[Numb Skrull]

okae so i guess havok can beat sandman, but that won't matter since the sinister six will win. i think they will have good team work in this since they dont know who they are fighting. They are bad together when they fight spider man because they all want to kill him for themselves but in this battle they just would want to win. They wont fumble with each other in this battle as well since they are not fighting one target.

[spidernate]

The six is good, but this x-men squad is just plain better. The SS power wise are in a great possition to win, but the x-men's teamwork will win them this battle.

[techdog]

coad14,
Chill out dude. We read your posts, its cool. Here is my take on things. I think the telepath aspect is overrated, I voted against the Telepaths in the last 2 battles too. Too much is being asked of them and too much odds against them. If all it took to win a fight was a telepath then Emma would be ruling the world, or Charles X would not have to have his x-men fight ever. Telepaths can never keep control over a person with strong enough will, so their power at best is shaky. Also, the Six do have mental shield, well Venom does anyway, the psychic bond between him and the symbotite keeps him safe from mental control, he is two minds and cannot be taken over. I like the x-men, but this version just seems to me to be in a bad location, against a foe that has the ability to take them out. Rogue in not a big enough bruiser(in my opinion) to take out Sandman, Ock can take out several of the x-men, and Kraven and Mysterio can really confuse and trap the others. The forest setting will give Kraven an huge advantge in this fight. I see your and Iceman's points, I just don't agree. The Six should win this fight most times.

[Numb Skrull]

you think that jean can beat the whole team by herself coad14? how? I do believe she will most likely be the last one standing, but i dont see her beating the whole team, so please explain again. Maybe you can change my vote

[DarthDoom]

Wah ha ha ha DOOM has to speak. DOOM see two teams that will lock in combat. In DOOM's opinion these two teams are straners to one another. Doom see professer doing amazing mind stunts like scan the brains of all on the field in an instant cause during this instant DOOM could say that the SS would have there attack rolling. Its a great battle but in the end its X-MEN's DOOOOOM Wah hahahahaha

[Cryomancer]

after seeing all the arguements, I vote X-men

[DarthDoom]

Is there a count on the votes cause it looks like X-men are winning

[techdog]

Originally posted by DarthDoom
Wah ha ha ha DOOM has to speak. DOOM see two teams that will lock in combat. In DOOM's opinion these two teams are straners to one another. Doom see professer doing amazing mind stunts like scan the brains of all on the field in an instant cause during this instant DOOM could say that the SS would have there attack rolling. Its a great battle but in the end its X-MEN's DOOOOOM Wah hahahahaha

Doom. I hate to argue with the self proclaimed master of the crush them all, but there is no professor on the field, unless you mean Dr. Ock. So, um, maybe you should rethink the thought? Maybe. (I know I am going to get crushed for this)

[DarthDoom]

TREACHERY.......doom must...:angry: DOOM has to:devious: CRUSH YOU WAH HA HA HA HA:laugh:

[DarthDoom]

You are in league with Richards

[techdog]

Well, no, sorry, I just, didn't mean, it was the big guy with the orange rocks for a face he made me do it! I swear! It was him, it was that, Thing!

[DarthDoom]

All will be forgiven for your vote DOOM FOR PRESIDENT

[techdog]

Ok, I'm in. At least you are honest about what you want, to crush everyone, I like that. It scares me, but I respect it. Honesty is good in a leader.

[Iceman425]

It's not just Jean fighting the squad here....it's the whole X-Team plus jean.

This Sinister Six composition is not built for a team environment. I'm sorry, but it's just not. Kraven, Hobgoblin, and Kraven are not really team players. That is going to noticably weaken their chances to take out a well put together and cohesive X-Squad.

X-Men are still the team to pick, if you want some reasons take a look back at some of my posts.

[Iceman425]

I really meant to list Kraven, Hobgoblin, and Venom.....

Sorry 'bout the typo, it wouldn't let me edit.

[coad14]

numbskrull. i believe that Jean could beat the whole team by herself, but it won't happen. she COULD beat them because she has the power to do so, but won't because of moral ethics and carp like that. imagine if she made doc ock think the rest of teammates were the x-men? ock would be all over his teammates. she won't be able to hold him long, but it should be long enough for at least 1 member to be down, either kraven or mysterio. it will take a couple seconds for ock to shake off the effects of being mind-controlled. then Jean can telepathically "turn-off" his ability to control his arms. (it is just like an inhibitor collar, designed to turn off mutant powers, except she can do it mentally). with out his arms, ock is a normal, pudgy man. one good punch and he will be knocked out. don't forget, each team starts away from each other, so unless they happen to be in full view of each other (which i doubt), then the x-men will have firct knowledgre of their opponents from Jeans psi-scans.

if this were a straight one-on-one fight between normal people, and one knew about the other person, including any weaknesses and what they could do, against someone who is walking blindly into the fight, w/o ANY knowledge, who would win? the person with the knowledge, more often than not.

iceman can creat barriers, drop temperature, fire ice projectiles, among other things. he is the second most powerful person on this team, versatlility wise. he can freeze sandman where he is (which counts as a ko), he can freeze amy gas that Mysterio releases, and he can create cover for his teammates.

Bishop is the one trick pony. once they learn about their foes, he will have one goal: get electro to attack him. if electro sees someone running right at him, is he going to not try and blast him? of course he is going to. which wil be his downfall. he can't put Bishop down. another ko.

Archangel will be a huge asset to this fight, with his ability to attack multiple targets from the air. and all it takes is one hit from his wing blades to drop even the toughest foe. Hobgoblin will not have a chance here, as he has no defense from bladed attacks. and warren can fire hundreds of feathers at once. even if he could block a couple, no way he, or anyone save venom and sandman, can stop them all.

we all know that Roge and Gambit will be inseperatable, even in this tourny. if kraven didn't get knocked out by ock while mc'd, then these two can do it. rogue will be flying low through the brush when kraven drops onto her back and tries to stab her with a knock out dart. it doesn't work. now, he is out in the open, with a super strong, super invulnerable person, and a sneaky theif that has snuck up on him and charged his machete on his back. KA-BOOM. kraven goes flying from the explosion. not quite unconcious, but close. he looks up, and boom, a solid punch to the face from rogue. ko

now we are left with venom. definetaly the wildcard for this group. with the symbiote, he cannot be mc'd, but Jean can still pinpoint his location by sensing his thought patterns. now, there is nowhere to hide. it is a numbers game now. he will fall.

techdog; i am chilled out. i was just making some goofy comments, thats all. at least YOU read my posts.:p

[techdog]

coad14,
I like your posts, they are well thought out, informed and you are pretty cool about it. I read them and understand them, but, I just happen to disagree with your call on this fight. You and Iceman425 have stated your positions well, and supported them. I just don't agree. The Six will get the advantage not starting next to the x-men, gives them time to hide and lay traps and illusions. If Kraven gets time in the woods to work, then some of the x-men might not even make it to the six as they would be caught in traps. You see,everyone is thinking this will be a straight up fight, but I see it as a hit and run style of match, where the six have the advantage, since that is what Venom, Sandman and Kraven do well. And Mysterio never runs head long into any battle, he waits and traps. Electro Hobby will be the bait, and they will go down, they always do, but Electro will take someone with him. And, I am not sure that Ock's link could be severed, since he alway overcomes those neural inhibitors in the comics, so I am not sure if she could do it. I am also not sure she could detect Venom's thought patterns, if Madam Webb and Dr. Strange could not do it, then I am not sure Jean could either. And, people do get the drop on her all the time. I see the Six fanning out into the woods and getting the drop on the x-men, and thus winning. That is what happens in my comic book, but I like your version too, it also makes sense, I just tend to like mine a little better. Thanks for the discussion.

[DarthDoom]

DOOM also reads your threads and will change Doom's vote for your vote to make DOOM the FONZ

[coad14]

i thought doom WAS the fonz?:laugh:

if you want to be fonz, you have my vote, i think it is cool that doom frequents these message boards!:laugh:

[techdog]

Ok, if that is what Doom wants, then who am I, but a humble techdog, to resist.

[DarthDoom]

DOOM's so happy:knockedou

[coad14]

30-23 for the x-men

[Macho Man]

Its been a good fight I think

[DTM]

Originally posted by oogie56
I think there is too much being put into the Six working as a team. There downfall has always been that the egos get in the way. The best leader is Doc, but I don't see Kraven and Venom taking orders from him. He would be the one to pinpoint weakness, but the others may not listen. The X Men have two bonafide field leaders here-Havok and Bishop. Jean has also taken the role. They are a MUCH better TEAM than the Six are. That is a decided advantage in this contest.

I say GOOD to this. Let Venom and Kraven go off hunting on their own, theyll bring down half the Xteam doing this.

And Havok is not even close as good as leader as his brother is, and Bishop was always too gruff and controlling to really lead this team well. Jeans is nice, but certainly not to the level of even Storm was as leader.

Doc Ock might have a unruly bunch on his team, but hes a better leader than ANYONE on this XMens team.

[coad14]

hey DTM. i was just going to ask you a question: when a team member is ko'd, are they removed from the battle field? just curious because in some fights, you could ko someone, or in sandman's case, immobilize him enough that it would warrant a ko, but they could revive or be revived by a teammate. can we get a ruling on that please?

thanks DTM

[coad14]

also, you really think ock is a better leader than Havok? i know he is about half the leader that scott is, but he has way more experience leading than ock does. ock considers everyone else on his team just his personal servants, and treats them like that as well. havok doesn't. he treats his commrades like they should be: as friends that watch each others backs. how many times has ock sent his "teammates" to do something, only for them to be a sacraficial lamb? more than havok. and that strategy might work here, but the whole stealth idea won't work against Jean. venom, maybe, but not kraven. and she will know who they are facing at the start.


you might want to recheck the vote totals. i was trying ot keep up, but i might have missed some.

[DTM]

Originally posted by coad14
i would like DTM to clarify 1 thing:

once a member of a team has been immobilized, ko'ed, whatever it takes to get a win in a 1-1 contest, are they barred from moving/acting again in said fight. that will make a big difference. in the venom/archangel thread, it was ruled that once the person is ko'ed, the wings/symbiote are done as well. just want to know that if say iceman were to be ko'ed, would he be removed immediatly from the playing field? that way, know one can "awake" from the ko to help fight again.

care to answer DTM?:) thanks

Yes, Id say to make things alittle easier, after a character is KOed, they are removed from the battlefield.

[DTM]

Current Voting Totals:

X-Men #2 - 30 votes
Sinister Six - 22 votes

Yep, looks like the only way a Team of Villians is making it to Round 2, is if they are fighting another Team of Villians.

[DTM]

Originally posted by coad14
also, you really think ock is a better leader than Havok? i know he is about half the leader that scott is, but he has way more experience leading than ock does. ock considers everyone else on his team just his personal servants, and treats them like that as well. havok doesn't. he treats his commrades like they should be: as friends that watch each others backs. how many times has ock sent his "teammates" to do something, only for them to be a sacraficial lamb? more than havok. and that strategy might work here, but the whole stealth idea won't work against Jean. venom, maybe, but not kraven. and she will know who they are facing at the start.


you might want to recheck the vote totals. i was trying ot keep up, but i might have missed some.

Yes, with THIS team of XMen, and this team of Sinister Six, I think Doc Ock is the better leader.

[pangea]

sinister seven for the win

[coad14]

but out of this team of x-men, havok has worked with them all except bishop, and all for a long long time, except gambit, who has only worked with him on occasion. so the familiararity is not an issue with his leadership skills.

besides, they are x-men. it wouldn't be a good battle if at least one person didn't listen to the team leader:p (hackwolverinecoff)

[Grinner]

Originally posted by coad14
i believe a ko is counted if sandman is dispersed or severly immoblized, so gambit throw lots of charged objects into him to slow him down, while iceman freezes him solid. that counts as sandman being ko'ed, and out for the rest of the battle.

Nope - incapacitating Sandman is not considered a KO. Otherwise no one would have voted for Sandman over Booster Gold in the finals of the middleweight match. Pretty much you had to either knock him out (which some people were arguing is impossible) or disperse him so thoroughly that he could not reconstitute in 10 seconds. Freezing him in ice isn't any different than sealing him in a force-field bubble. No KO, Sandman counts as still in the fight and one of his team mates can free him.

I've got to throw my vote in for the Sinister Six (if I haven't already, which I don't think I have). This is classic-power Bobby, not the Uber-Iceman. He's not going to ice up Doc Ock where the good doctor can't break free.

Can the X-men win? Certainly. This one keeps up the closeness most of these matches have had. But I just see the Six taking this one more often than the X-men.

[Iceman425]

As far as being a leader, you are selling Havok short.

He has, at some times, showed Scott a thing or two. Scott is always so straight ahead and hard-edged, Alex has a different approach. However, through his time with X-Factor and Mutant X he had more than a few challenges that he dealt with, extremely well.

When Scott drops off the deep end, Alex is the one that calms him down and is the voice of reason. Don't put Alex as 50% the leader of Scott, because that would be wrong. He is definitely more than half of the leader Scott is.

Another good point is that all of the folks on this X-Squad are veterans. They will act quickly and effectively as a team regardless of whether or not Scott or Ororo are present. Havok, Bishop, and Jean in constant telepathic contact provide 3 level headed leaders and have troops that would not ever disregard direction from them. This will keep the X-Men tight and focused.

Trust and teamwork will win this one for the X-Men.

[Iceman425]

Grinner,

Bobby could Ice up Doc Oc and then Gambit could kinetically charge that block of ice. It's not a one on one event as the Sininster Six would look at it. Once again, it's about teamwork.

[DreadDormammu]

Sinister Six is just too weak. They can barely take Spidey because they don't work together well enough. This X-Men team is not cohesive, but in this matchup they don't have to be.

Also, don't overrate Phoenix. Assuming we are going by Jean when she was using that name, she was really hot and cold. She was scared of her own power and often underperformed. I think the key players are Iceman and Rogue. I agree Rogue touching Electro could be bad for everyone though. :)

[Rando]

1.Why in the world would Rogue kiss Electro when she could just as easily punch him, or hit him with a tree for that matter, what in the world makes you think she is going to use her last ditch emergency attack on a foe she can easily destroy with her primary attacks, especially when the primarys place her in less danger than the touch attack. Although Bishop is of course the obvious foe for this guy to even a non telepath.

2. Jean can take Sandman in two seconds, he is a weak willed, she tells him to goto sleep and he does it.

3. Havoc should be able to take Doctor Octopus on his own, Otto's arms can't protect him against a burst of plasma that is as big as a buick and Otto is just a normal guy, and Havoc can throw this attack through the trees cover, destroying it in the porcess from incredible range, Havoc has hit things that were in orbit in the past.. Also why in the world would Jean sever his telepathic link when she can put him to sleep, or just pound on him with telekintic force. Gambit could also sneak up on him , after all this version of Doctor Octopus go taken by a guy made of glass walking into close range and shredding him while he was distracted.

4.whenever Sabertooth managed to take the x-men must have been a long time ago, during the time when Warren was Archangel Bishop took him down single handeldy, in another instance so did Jean, the narrotor descrided the powers difference as a firecraker to an atom bomb
(Sabertooth to Jean).

5.Saying that Madam Webb or Dr.Strange couldn't mentally detect Venom is not a very good comparison neither is even close to as good a mentalist as Jean. It's like saying that a shield agent couldn't beat up someone, so neither should Captain America.

6.Assuming Rogue is doing something useful with her time instead of fighting people like Otto or Sandman or Electro then she should take Mysterio out in under a minute. Jean counters Mysterio's illusions with the other 58 seconds left in the minute after she kncocks Sandman out form 1000 feet away and Rogue throws a sapling at Mysterio putting him away instantly, she can then go and bother Kraven, Iceman, or give Archangel a hand with Hobgoblin, or get on Venom's case (again told of their positions by Jean).

7.Iceman is a great match for Venom or Kraven, he can freeze the area around himself making stealth difficult, he can make webbing brittle, and freeze gas. He will probably get pounded on a strength basis but once that goes on Rogue and Havoc and Bishop and Jean (who was never really that busy to begin with) are all free to attack. Gambit vs. the other stealth guy would probably generate a similar result, assuming or course that Jean didn't just disguie the presence of her stealth guy while reavealing the SS's that would make it much easier to handle either or both.

8.All of this assumes that Jean doesn't just start putting people to sleep with mental attacks from the get go (which she does do from time to time). Electro, Sandman, human Hobgoblin, and Mysterio are very weak minded they should be cake for Jean to demolish, I can't imagine that anyone with super human defense against could really resist Jean, which puts away everyone except Venom and maybe weird demon Hobgoblin. If you want an example of willpower failign to stop mental attacks, in Secret Wars Charles Xavier, makes spider-man forget his entire fight with the X-men as well as what precipitated it, and there is no apparent struggle at all, Spider-man puts any of these guys away on willpower, while Xavier is the number 2 telepath Jean is 3. Additionaly as she looses more and more team Jean becomes more dangerous as her anger erodes her inhibitions about using her powers.

[CyberVenom]

This is an awesome battle, that looks like the terrain is going to be the factor.

Round 1:
Doc Ock takes down Iceman.
Sandman takes down Gambit.
Rogue takes down Mysterio.
Phoenix takes down Electro.
Venom takes down Havok.
Kraven takes down Bishop.
Archangel takes down Hobgoblin.

Round 2:
Venom takes down Phoenix.
Doc Ock takes down Rogue.
Archangel takes down Kraven, and stalemates Sandman.

Round 3:
Doc Ock and Venom help Sandman take Archangel down.

Winner: Sinister 7

[Prof. Aragorn]

The length is a diameter wide, the groups are gonna take some time getting to eachother which the stealthy people such as Sandman, Venom, Kraven, Mysterio, heck even Hobgoblin and Doc Ock can help spring traps. This leaves Electro as cannon fodder. While the X-men see one guy out there shooting at them, Bishop takes him on and beats him into the ground while the stealthy people (Gambit) go off looking for the rest. The sinister six will realize that the X-group's biggest advantage other than the telepath (which Venom can take down) is their teamwork. Divide and conquer are what the Sinister six will do. Hobgoblin ties up Warren while Sandman surprises Gambit while being intangilbe to Rogue's touch. She is forced to fend off Doc Ock while Bobby is fooled into shooting Havok by Mysterio. Kraven then continues on to finish off Bishop who was left to take on Electro and Venom rejoins the group to finish off Warren. In the end, a weakened Sinister 6 wins.

[DTM]

Current Voting Totals:

X-Men #2 - 30 votes
Sinister Six - 25 votes

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
The length is a diameter wide
Sorry, meant a mile in diameter before I rambled on.

[Krellen]

x-men

[DTM]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Sinister Six is just too weak. They can barely take Spidey because they don't work together well enough. This X-Men team is not cohesive, but in this matchup they don't have to be.

Also, don't overrate Phoenix. Assuming we are going by Jean when she was using that name, she was really hot and cold. She was scared of her own power and often underperformed. I think the key players are Iceman and Rogue. I agree Rogue touching Electro could be bad for everyone though. :)

I have to disagree with you saying this Sinister Six team is too weak, DD.

Sandman is incredibly powerful, ESPECIALLY in this easy to blend into terrain, who almost took the last Middle Weight contest alone.

Venom routinely kicks the crud out of SpiderMan, who only winds up the winner thru some usage of sonics or fire or help to beat Venom.

Dr Octopus WITH his Adamantium arms beat up an unsuspecting Hulk. Hes got the brains, the experience, and now the Power to handle anyone here.

Kraven is a MASTER level hunter, perfect for this environment as well. He can blend in and hunt down the XMen at will. He also has superhuman level strength and endurance, which allowed him to wrestle even SpiderMan to a standstill.

Sure, Hobgoblin and Electro might be fodder, but they are still Powerful ranged atackers, and only Bishop and Rogue are really going to be unaffected by their lightning blasts and pumpkin bomb spray.

The Six might not have the team work the XMen have, but they dont really need it, as they have a more powerful team, and are best when working on their own, and NOT fighting SpiderMan, who they ALL have grudges with, which screws their judgement some. :)

Heck, Doc Ock and Venom each can handle more than one XMen at a time.

[DareDevil-fan]

xmen 2 wins this one

[GreatArelius1]

Sinister 6

[coad14]

i have to say that everyone here that is making this a ono on one team battle is only making match-ups that would favor theor own team. i am doing this as well. i think that iceman425 has the best reasoning, in that it will be a team battle.

the advantages of teamworkfor the x-men:
1) noone will go on their own
2) someone will always be watching your back
3)with telepathic knowledge of the enemies BEFORE they engage them, everyone will have an assigned role, and know what to do before hand. thi includes weaknesses and powers.
4)in constant telepathic communication. orders can be issued real quick if someone is in trouble. go back to point #2.


the disadvantages for the sinister six because of x-men teamwork:

1)without any prior knowledge of who they are fighting, they are walking into this blindly.
2)the x-men have respect for each other, making them more cohesive, were as ock is just a dictator leader. he has no respect from him "collegues". this will mean if one person is in trouble, they became a sacrifical lamb.
3)once they start fighting ock is too busy fighting to issue commands to hep his team out.
4)this team has never been good at working together, ever. the x-men are a family.
5)somone going off their own means easy pickings for the x-men because of telepathy. they won't be sneaking up on them. and kraven and venom won't have any backup because they just left their teamates behind.

the Jean putting them to sleep is a very good point. and somone says that jean couldn't turn off ocks control of his arms. she can. the difference wit hinhibitor collars are they just prevent you from using that part of your brain, or accessing their powers. jean can turn off his ability to use them permanatly, or even make him foget how to use them. and even if ock CAN work around inhibitor collars, he can't do it instataneously.

[Maniac_nmt]

jean could do that coad, but she doesn't, ever, not this jean anyway. She never demonstrated that kind of power in battle.

For this jean keeping a strong mental link with teammates while the furball is on is enough of a challenge.

If she tries to do anything mentally to Ock (a very strong willed character), she's out of commission for a long time, and the rest of the Six bring enough to the table to flatten the Xmen without jean's assisstance.

This jean's main weapon, and what she's credible with is her tk, not her telepathy.

[Q99]

Venom routinely kicks the crud out of SpiderMan, who only winds up the winner thru some usage of sonics or fire or help to beat Venom.

And don't forget, the X-men have fire, in Havok.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by Q99
Venom routinely kicks the crud out of SpiderMan, who only winds up the winner thru some usage of sonics or fire or help to beat Venom.

And don't forget, the X-men have fire, in Havok. Go ahead, if Jean cannot detect venom due to the symbiotes special properties, no one sees him drop her, blend back into the shade and then continue to pick off the rest of the group. Venom is a beast and a justified killer. This guy can easily blend in, have the symbiote tell him who's the biggest threat and then pick em apart one by one. The six could even wear down the team, but Venom is the major reason I think the six can win. The x-men don't want to separate, but the six will make them separate. Besides, it's over and done with, the six lost... :cry:

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
don't want to separate, but the six will make them separate. Besides, it's over and done with, the six lost... :cry:

It isn't over until the last match is closed. We've had some of the matches here change winners after the next battle started, and this one could be another.

[BAKID]

Sinister six (Seven)

[malreux]

The other major tactical feature I see here, is that even many folks voting for the Six are putting most of the power of Kraven, Venom, and Mysterio into skulking, sneaking, or laying traps, which would mean they are not helping with the frontal assault the others are making, which effectively lets the x-men focus on Hobby, Electro, Doc, and Sandman and then pick the other three off at their leasure

[DTM]

Originally posted by Q99
Venom routinely kicks the crud out of SpiderMan, who only winds up the winner thru some usage of sonics or fire or help to beat Venom.

And don't forget, the X-men have fire, in Havok.

Possibly, Im not sure Plasma is FIRE, moreso heat than fire, but thats even IF Venom picks Havok to go after. Same as Electro going after Bishop, thats the ONE character he couldnt hurt, but there are many other X characters to choose from. So the odds of Venom going after Havok, or Electro after Bishop, from just blind luck, is VERY slim.