JSA changing continuity?

[ArmoredSaint]

Love the book, a lot! But anyone else kinda notice the problems this book causes with continuity and the way it changes the DC landscape every 6 issues or so? Gotta say that it's a bit weird. Heres a few examples.

In the first arc Wesley Dodds dies. So he jumps off this cliff and dies but according to DC 'Kingdom Come' Wesley dies in the hospital during the waining days of superheroes. So DC itself has said that KC is the future of their universe, that eventually it's heroes will become their KC counter parts. So thats a change in DC continuity right there.

Starman retiring. I know he doesn't have his own book anymore so he'd technically be a JSA property but Jack Knight retired the role of Starman and gave the cosmic rod to the Star Spangled Kid. I reeeeeeally liked Jack Knight. His fight with the Uber Powerful Captain Marvel during the Lightning and Stars arc was classic David and Goliath.

The book has a constantly rotating cast, characters drop out of the book every chance that is given.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Kingdom Come is not set in stone as the future of DC.

[ArmoredSaint]

Hm, I had heard that DC was almost assuredly Kingdom Comes past.

[malchyor]

nope. it's considered an "elseworld's" book.

i mean, i wish it were cannon, but it's not.

[Neato-Magneto]

Kobra is also dead in JSA...not in KC...

[hhhutch]

?? I don't notice the 'constant rotation of characters' part.

Captain Marvel is leaving, but he's been around a while,

Atom Smasher recently left, but he'd been there since the beginning.

Black Adam left because he's ruling Khandaq now, and Black Canary left around the time that Green Arrow came back.

We're in like issue 50 something now though, aren't we? How long do characters need to be around? To me they leave when you run out of good stories for them.

There's a solid core of characters and then there's peripherals, kind of like JLA. It's wonderfully written. Johns is great at superhero books and this is a great example.

Also, Kingdom Come is NOT the DC future. They've used IDEAS from it in the present day (Hawkman design, Jakeem Thunder), but Kingdom Come has a LOT more in common with Silver Age DC stuff.

Just look at the power levels of the characters.

I mean, heck, the GL in Kingdom Come is either Alan Scott or Hal Jordon, they never say which, and the Flash is very arguably Barry Allan, which would be SURE to be pre-crisis.

So no, it's not the definite future.

[Speedy]

I think Hawkman and Dr. Fate are also on leaves of absence as well. The original Hourman has just recently returned. I assume we will see what the steady core group will be in the months to come. I understand the comic has been around for around 50+ issues, but it does seem like a large group of core characters have shifted in and out in recent months. I trust Mr. Johns will keep this title running smoothly, so I'm not too worried about the changes in the cast.

[hhhutch]

I think that Black Reign was a BIG shakeup point in the series and that we'll see some new things develop. A lot of the older plotlines were resolved, and now they can move forward.

[Rokk_Krinn]

As many have noted, Kingdom Come is not a definitive future. While JSA has had many Kingdom Come possibilities brought forth in it, such as J.J. Thunder, there are other things that don't go with KC. Many other DC books fit the same situation. Examples of some other things in KC that are contradicted by current DC:
*Rorschach, Marvin and other non-canon characters
*Jim Corrigan as the Spectre
*Donna Troy still alive

As for Jack Knight's appearances in the JSA, it was prior to his retirement. It's actually addressed at one point (Starman #60 maybe?) in the "Starman" series. Notice he stopped being a member after a short while and his rod has since passed on to Courtney.

[bloodsworn]

Green Lantern in Kingdom Come is Alan Scott (I don't remember where I read it, but it stated that Alan Scott regained the mantle of 'Green Lantern' prior to the KC storyline. Also KC Green Lanter doesn't look anything like Hal and the story was written after Hal went mad and became Parallax. Finally, notice after JSA 50 that Alan now calls himself Green Lantern again?).

Kingdom Come is generally not canon, but with the introduction of 'Hypertime' into DC continuity, parts of Kingdom Come have become part of current continuity. Sounds nutty, but that's what it's supposed to be: Elseworlds or parallel universe stories (ie the arrival of Kingdom Come Superman in Superman/Batman, JLA Earth Two and the Crime Syndicate, etc) that branch out of continuity then branch back in.

[Cigam Retah]

I mean, heck, the GL in Kingdom Come is either Alan Scott or Hal Jordon, they never say which, and the Flash is very arguably Barry Allan, which would be SURE to be pre-crisis.

It is Alan Scott. The Ring is on his left hand, and he has several important on panel "emotional glances" shared with Jade, his DC Universe daughter. Hal and her had little to share. Also, according to Waid's notes, it is intended to be Scott, as Hal had just recently passed into the great beyond in DC Continuity, and Mr. Silver Age Himself, Alex Ross, refused to portray the GL as Kyle. So, they comprimised on Scott.

Also, Kingdom Come Flash is supposed to be ALL FLASHES. EVER.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Another bit of proof that it's Alan Scott is that Ollie peppers him with wooden arrows that punch right through the emerald armour. Also KC GL's constructs have a green flame signature to them.

[Jackygobang]

KC Flash is Wally...


JSA is a great book, and Geoff is good enough to make shake-ups work..

[Starman973]

And recently Alan reached into himself and pulled out the Star heart from himself while was his ring and now he can do something he hasn't done in a while. Start to age.

[bloodsworn]

Actually, it was Mordru who ripped the Starheart from Alan Scott (during Princes of Darkness). After he got it back, he reformed the Starheart into the shape of the ring.

[impulse1121]

kingdom come is just like the dark knight series its an "elsworlds" title

[The Charlatan]

JSA/Geoff Johns has ressurected Dove, changed Hawkman's origin, modified Black Adam's, and will soon change Power Girl's. No serious changes to overall continuity yet that I'm aware of.

Johns has used lots of KC influences in his work (Atom-Smasher, Northwind as KC Hawkman, Alan appearing as KC GL during a fight with Extant), but he's also changed some stuff so that KC characters won't be showing up in time. Example: the KC Flash's kids were twins, a boy and a girl, Barry and Iris West, with Barry being a slacker and Iris taking the mantle of Kid Flash. Not long ago in the present timeline, Wally's wife Linda was pregnant with twins (a boy and a girl) but Zoom caused her to miscarry, killing them, thus preventing them from existing in the future.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by The Charlatan
Example: the KC Flash's kids were twins, a boy and a girl, Barry and Iris West, with Barry being a slacker and Iris taking the mantle of Kid Flash. Not long ago in the present timeline, Wally's wife Linda was pregnant with twins (a boy and a girl) but Zoom caused her to miscarry, killing them, thus preventing them from existing in the future.

That possible future still hasn't been changed yet because there were many indications in "Kingdom" that the mother of the twins was not Linda. Heck, the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if Wally and the former Mrs. Zolomon are the parents of Barry and Iris. Or, for that matter, that Wally and Linda won't just try again and still have twins (and the indications in "Kingdom" not coming into play).

Anyway, considering the "Kingdom Come" covers prominently display "Elseworlds", I think that we're talking circles here. ;)

[ArmoredSaint]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn

Anyway, considering the "Kingdom Come" covers prominently display "Elseworlds", I think that we're talking circles here. ;)

You're probably right in that aspect! :grin:

[zaurial]

For Kingdom Come to happen:

Donna Troy/ Trioa would have to come back to life. I don't think she should, considering her convuluted origon, boring personality, and the fact that she's been replaced with someone that is a LOT better at being Wonder Girl than Donna was. Also, who needs her?
The Flash would have to have kids. That would make him a father, impacting his hero duties. Unless they're retired, super heros shouldn't have kids. It's something else entierly if a) they don't know about it. (Like Alan Scott and his kids) or b) they retire, then come back. Kids from the future don't count.
Wesley Dodds would have to come back. While a cool guy, he wasn't really as impacting in the DCU as other brought-back charecters. (Supergirl, Superman, Aquaman, etc.) So his return would be all but pointless. Besides, he WANTED to die, so bringing him back would make him sad. And nobody likes a sad Sandman. Besides, he's been replaced by a better Sandman.

Also, if KC actually happened, DC would be killing off many, many charecters. Far too many. That's just not very smart. It's plastered with the "Elseworlds" logo, guys. Don't let it happen, and don't HOPE it will happen. The charecters will never age that much anyway. I wouldn't mind a FEW of the KC things taking effect, like Catwoman returning to villainy, but if the whole thing happened, I'd be too mad at DC to keep buying their stuff. That's why I'm happy it's out-of-continuity. Rock!

[bizzaro]

Originally posted by malchyor
nope. it's considered an "elseworld's" book.

i mean, i wish it were cannon, but it's not.

It is an Elseworld's tale ... but didn't KC Superman make an appearance in Superman/Batman? Doesn't that make him a part on DC regular continuity?

[bloodsworn]

Yes, KC Superman showed up in Superman/Batman. Keep in mind the whole hypertime schema, where timelines branch out of main continuity and branch back in (ie Why KC Superman is able to show up in Superman/Batman without throwing current continuity into chaos).

Check this site out for a more detailed account of Hypertime and how it affects DC Continuity:

http://www.geocities.com/hypertime2000/features/theory/index.html

Hope this helps.

[Starman973]

Originally posted by bloodsworn
Yes, KC Superman showed up in Superman/Batman. Keep in mind the whole hypertime schema, where timelines branch out of main continuity and branch back in (ie Why KC Superman is able to show up in Superman/Batman without throwing current continuity into chaos).

actually it wasn't exactly that superman but a Superman from A possible future, it all gets spelled out in the last issue when Captian Atom accidentally time jumps to that future and finds out how to fix the past so that future never comes.

[JayThor]

There was so much power on this team, they had to cut it back some. The cool thing is that a big storyline will bring some of them back, I'm sure. I look forward to the Powergirl revamp. When the Crisis merged everything, Powergirl, a well established character, was left on the outside looking in. The Arion thing was interesting, but never really developed. I like the new possibilities being done with this creative team.

PS- I don't think we've seen the last of Captain Marvel. It may just be wishful thinking, though.....

[Cliff Stockton]

The KC Flash is some type of amalgamation
due to the Speed Force of all of the Flashes.

I think he does retain mostly a "Wally" identity though.

[Cliff Stockton]

Wonder when we'll see Sand reappear?
It didn't seem as if he was entirely gone.
Definitely left the arc open if someone
does bring him back.

My main thing right now with most books is
that I want a nice short story or two. Something
that can be tied up in one or two issues. The
holiday issues with the JLA/JSA dinner and then
Ma Hunkle brought back into the fold were nice.

It's good to see the original Hourman back.
Maybe they can focus on the "old timers" for
a story. GL, Flash, Wildcat, Hawkman and Rex.

I'm just getting tired of having to read 6 months
worth of comics for one story to resolve itself. It
seems like every book I collect right now does that.

Green Lantern is in a big storyline ( hopefully over soon! )

JLA is in yet ANOTHER multi-issue crisis.

Legion just ended one.

Green Arrow is going several issues into another story again.

Superman/Batman looks to be going that way with the Supergirl start-up.

Hawkman just helped the JSA finish up Black Reign. I did
like the twist at the end of the Byrne Vampire story though!
Holy water...sweet!

JSA is always on the lookout for a big stry.

Here's hoping they can all keep things simple for a bit
once the current story arcs are finished. The team books
especially have so much to offer in one-shot stories with
the focus on just a couple of characters. The latest LSH
issue is a good example of that.

I'm through whining now. ;)