View Full Version : LSH Discussion (warning: possible spoilers)
Rokk_Krinn
03/28/2004, 22:21
Well, figure that thanks to DTM's Team Contest Threads there's been a lot of discussion, questions and thoughts on DC's 30th Century Hero Team - The Legion of Super-Heroes (or as their title is currently shortened to: The Legion). I figure we can't keep spamming out DTM's thread with Legion shop-talk so we might as well start a Legion thread here (and thanks to 4AD_Punk for making the "JSA Discussion Thread" so I could steal the basic premise ;) ).
Frankly, I've been surprised by the number of long-time Legion readers on the HCRealms board. Sure, I know the Legionnaires have some very fanatically devoted fans but these days we seem fewer and farther apart than, say, the Baxter-paper days of v3. I guess that's been part of the on-going story of the Legion though: sometimes it gets so frighteningly low in support that DC considers permanently yanking it but it somehow has pulled itself back up time and time again. It's been around for 45 years now and while I can't say I was there at the beginning, I've been around for at least part of a helluva-great ride.
I know a team the size of the Legion is intimidating enough to new readers, but that size also holds a special attraction. The first time someone opens a Legion comic to view the greatly varied cast, it blows some synapses I think. :) I was no stranger to the LSH having been started on them by my father shortly after my birth (he read me comics to get me to sleep) but as a kid I was still blown away when flipping through the "Great Darkness Saga" you saw darn near every hero ever to grace the pages of the Legion (and those monitor board splash pages in "GDS"? I still get giddy seeing all those Legionnaires called to duty :) ). I guess what I'm saying is that if you're new here and worried that it'll take awhile to learn the cast - don't fret over it. Not only are we fans glad to help you, but Legion writers are great at making sure the members are easy to learn.
Hopefully this thread will generate its' own discussion easily enough, but I guess I should find a topic with which to begin. Frankly, I'm curious what era of the Legion people still remember the most fondly. Is it the Clubhouse Days? The 70's "Burst of Maturity" Era? The Grim and Gritty Adult Legion of v4? Let me know your thoughts!
So, this is Rokk (appropriately enough, I guess :) ) saying, "Welcome to the Legion!" Hope you stick around here as it should be fun.
LLL!
eltigrediablo
03/28/2004, 22:27
I bought my first LSH comic at a white elephant sale when I was in grade 1. That was 1976! I followed the Legion pretty enthusiastically after that, and was really enjoying even the mess that was the Giffen/Bierbaums run...that was up until they introduced the teen clones...and Earth blew up...
My favourite era by far is the Mike Grell run. He was the first artist I really went all 'fanboy' over. The new series is ok....I keep waiting for it to be more than that, but it just hasn't done it for me yet.
My favorite by far was "The Grim and Gritty Adult Legion" (is that trademarked). I loved the book mostly for the way the it seemed to step back and say "These guys have known each for like 15 years. They should act like it." The dynamic of a group of people that have been that close for that long really rang true during my college years.
Tarnish
EVIL CAP
03/28/2004, 22:36
Im looking to get into the Legion after alot of people reccomended it to me but my comic shop doesnt pick it up so im gonna have to start ordering it.What issue are they up to btw?I seen up into the upper 20s or so and know there was a big storyline with 2 Darksieds but never finished it
Rokk_Krinn
03/28/2004, 23:40
Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Im looking to get into the Legion after alot of people reccomended it to me but my comic shop doesnt pick it up so im gonna have to start ordering it.What issue are they up to btw?I seen up into the upper 20s or so and know there was a big storyline with 2 Darksieds but never finished it
There was a big Darkseid storyline - a minor take-off of "Great Darkness" post-ZH - in the most recent storyline of "The Legion". Issues involved with it were "Legion Secret Files: 3003" (not a typo) and standard issues #25-30. Among highlights from the storyline you get a time-travelling Superboy using the "classic look" outfit, the reignition of the Fire Pits of Apokolipse, and the "Servants of Darkness" (some very familiar DC characters time-plucked and raised by Darkseid). That's only some of the goodies you'll find in the storyline. If you can find the issues, I recommend it as a good story and a decent jumping-on point.
After you're done with "Foundations" (the recent Darkseid story), go find a copy of the "Great Darkness Saga" TPB to see how it originally played out pre-Zero Hour.
Ignatz_Mouse
03/28/2004, 23:45
I stopped reading about 3-4 years after the reboot. Any good place to catch up on the major events since then?
There were Legionairs in one of the first two comics I ever remember owning, though I have no idea where it fits, but it involved Legionairs going back to see superboy and dealing with dial V for heros supervillains (maybe they even used the H dial.) remember very little of it, but it was magic to me. My overall favorite era is the (no laughs for those following from the DTM threads) FULL CHEST COVERING Star Boy star studded suit. Seemed like some of the best character building, best tricky power use, and some big story topics I wasnt seeing anywhere else, like when Jeckie killed Nemisis. The Gritty had a couple of my all time favorite issues though, specifically the Tenzil Kem episodes, rescuing Polar Boy and fighting Evillo (with his Devils Dozen, easily my favorite villain team ever) it may have partly been because the rest of it was so grim, but at the time it was the funniest thing I had ever seen. I liked the end right before the reboot. The ending where they decided to fight against the jaw dropping couple of Glorith and Mordru was as epic as I have seen outside of the Great Darkness (recent storyline was a nod, but it seemed a little over the top. ((DC Comic Writers Official Riddle: What is scarier than Darkseid...)fun though, and was nice seeing the old Superboy costume) I also really liked the Jeff and Phil Moy era run on reboot Legion. It seems as close as I ever saw to catching the unyielding optimism of the early days, but with modern sensibilities for careful character and relationship building (no, for instance, Saturn Girl getting elected leader by mind controling everyone, and then kicking everyone out of the Legion, though god I love that story). Kicker was I almost left after they did, because I thought the writing and art got so bad for a while. I got a chance to talk to them at a con right about that time (while buying all the original Legion art they had left) and they were really upset about having to leave. Jeff said something like "I guess we draw everything to cheerful for the way things are going." Got Jeff to draw me a Tenzil headshot, and Phil was so shy about talking he didnt want to look up and drew and INKED a Chuck sketch. Talk about pride of my collection.
PS Evil Cap a good place to start on the current legion is the Trade that collects the first like 8 or ten issues. For older stuff you probably cant do better than the hardcover treasuries, Amazon has em like $34 for 200+ pages on good paper.
SimonMoon5
03/29/2004, 11:24
My fondest memories of the LSH are of the Levitz era.
My first LSH comic was the one that introduced Tyroc. I knew who Superboy was, but was intrigued by all these other heroes. I read the LSH off and on for a while. DC began to reprint all the earliest LSH stories in Adventure comics digests which I eagerly snapped up.
And then, after a while, I got disgusted with the silliness of the DC Universe... mainly because of Superman. As a high school student, I wanted *serious* comics, so I stopped reading DC altogether.
And then Crisis came along and changed everything. DC comics could actually be taken seriously again. A friend reintroduced me to the Legion, and I was impressed. And, hey, who *is* Sensor Girl? And my favorite villains (the Fatal Five) were showing up again... Great stuff.
I also somewhat have a fondness for the early Legion stuff, mainly because I was able to read it in digest form, with a "new" old issue reprinted every month. Later, to try to complete my LSH collection, I'd go to dealers and buy various issues, but not in order, so I didn't have the same feel for the history of the characters between the Adventure digests and Tyroc's first appearance.
Of course, the LSH Archives are great, but they didn't exist back then.
Ignatz_Mouse
03/29/2004, 11:30
My favorite era was Levitza/Giffen. Suddenly, more than a few legionaires had personalities. Subplots started and developed into whole stories. It was like the futire was new again.
Once the Baxter book got going, I liked it less. By the time Sensor Girl and Magentic Kid showewd up, I was bored.
My second-favorite era is a longish one, from the start of the Superboy And days through Earthwar. That's where I hopped on, and I was totally blown away by Jim Sherman and Mike Nasser on art, and I was already a Grell fan when I picked up his back issues.
Who were the "Servants of Darkness", by the way? I got that one of them was a pre-Smallville Clark Kent, but who were the others?
I wasn't paying close enough attention to them, I guess.
This book desperately needs new creative blood. I can't wait until DnA sign off and Simone starts her run (followed, presumably, by Waid).
Is that Simone from Birds of Prey? Might be just the shot in the arm they need right now. For me Legion is at its best when it is character driven plots interacting with big multipartt story lines.
Servants of Darkness...do you mean in the most current line? The ones in the original great darkness saga were based on Superman, Orion, and Oan, A ancestral Mallor, and I think Kalibak. The new ones I would need to take a look at, but if those are the ones you want Ill go through and id the ones I can. Sensor Girl turned out to be an upgraded Princess Projectra.
Lightshear
03/29/2004, 16:15
I started into Legion with the launch of the Legionairres series. I was a fan of Chris Sprouse, and I loved the multitude of diverse, unique characters and the great costumes. The costumes probably drew me to it as much as anything - I loved that they could be individual and yet still retain the theme of the team. I collected the entire Legionnaires series up to the relaunch, and both Legion and Legionairres after that. I fell off some time before the blight invasion and the Legion Lost story, as money got tight, but I got back into it when the Blight showed up. I've loved most of what's happened since.
Myself, as far as it goes, I have a love/hate thing with the corniness and goofiness of the really old golden age stuff. I love the JSA, but mostly for the pulp sensetivities of a lot of the members. With the Legion, especially in the 70's...it just looked too disco-futuristic and corny for me. Just my opinion, and I understand why others could love the classics so much. I don't disregard the coolness of the nostalgic eras of the Legion, it just isn't really for me. Anyway, I'm tremendously psyched that Waid might be coming on board (?) because that guy is one of my favorite writers. I'd love to hear what he has to say with Legion-world.
Rokk_Krinn
03/29/2004, 19:21
Originally posted by JacinB
Who were the "Servants of Darkness", by the way? I got that one of them was a pre-Smallville Clark Kent, but who were the others?
I wasn't paying close enough attention to them, I guess.
*Original Servants of Darkness: Kalibak, Orion, Superman, a Guardian of Oa, and A Champion of Talok (Mallor-line, natch)
*New Servants of Darkness: They never gave names for most, but most likely -
*Clark Kent (young age, but heightened powers)
*Orion
*Lobo (a nod to "The Quiet Darkness" I imagine)
*Big Barda
*Green Lantern (his symbol is Kyle's but he uses both arms for the emerald energy)
*Firestorm
*Martian Manhunter (the alien creature with a Mars symbol, shape-shifting, phasing and heightened physical prowess just screams J'onn to me but this is a tough one to pin down)
Rokk_Krinn
03/29/2004, 19:26
Originally posted by Lightshear
Anyway, I'm tremendously psyched that Waid might be coming on board (?) because that guy is one of my favorite writers. I'd love to hear what he has to say with Legion-world.
I admit that I hadn't heard Mark Waid would be coming back on-board but if so, that's always a good thing. :) Mark is a Legion fan from waaaaay back and has been associated with them longer than people realize (he's still hated at DC for the infamous "face shots" cover of "Who's Who in the Legion" which he edited. :) ). Mark not only closed off the Legion's pre-ZH adventures (including turning Rokk into the Time Trapper) but also kicked off the initial post-ZH Reboot. He did a fine job there and I feel perfectly comfortable with the Legion in his hands.
I had, however, heard more rumours about Gail Simone getting on the title and while I only just bought the "Birds of Prey" TPB featuring her work, I've been hearing some enthusiastic remarks about her ability. Anything else people can tell me about her work that I might wish to check out?
MikeHintze
03/29/2004, 19:34
That was meant to be the Martian Manhunter as one of the Servants of Darkness. His Martian form with the mouth on his abdomen was a characteristic of the White Martians from JLA.
I was an on again off again fan of the Legion, until I bought LSH V3 #1 on a whim. The opening words "Five Years Later..." started it and man was I hooked. Once Keith Giffen left writing the book it kinda went downhill, but I really enjoyed the series. The first 38 issues are excellent to read in one sitting if you're bored one weekend! Easily one of my top ten reads of my comic reading life!
Rokk_Krinn
03/29/2004, 19:49
Originally posted by MikeHintze
That was meant to be the Martian Manhunter as one of the Servants of Darkness. His Martian form with the mouth on his abdomen was a characteristic of the White Martians from JLA.
Which is why I was debating if it was J'onn and not just a more warlike White Martian. :)
At San Diego Comicon a few years ago I saw a bunch of writers and artists having a comics trivia contest against the comics geeks from the show Beat The Geeks. It was Waid, Busiek, and. hmm cant remember the other, some wolverine related guy. Anyway, Waid and Busiek ROCKED the geeks so hard they brought in the guy that is the frizzy haired music geek from the show and he apparently knew a lot more about comics than their cominc geeks (impressed me a few times) Anyway, the cap of the event was the final question, when Mark Waid was asked to name, if I remember right, to list as many Legion of Superheros members by first name and home planet as he could in 1 minute and he managed more than 20
In other news, I just noticed that we got a Legion Team into second round of the team tournament of champions here at HCRealms. WOOOOO! (now watch them come up against the Freedom Fighters or something this round)
SO who is everyone's favorite Legionair? I gotta go with Tenzil, but Chuck runs a close second (and the most recent version of Lyle has been growing on me...)
4AD_Punk
03/30/2004, 05:58
Unfortunately, Legion is one of the few titles I have not read or am familiar with.
However, I anticipate reading Legion now that the current story "Foundations" is over; I didn't want to pick-up the title in the middle of an arc. I will probably buy the latest issue that has Giffen and Tony Harris' name attached to it. However, I still might be lost; hopefully not.
I eagerly anticipate participating in Rokk's Legion thread! Frankly, Rokk is the man! If you don't know what I'm talking about, click this: Rokk_Krinn's Bat-Villain Contest (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=86144).
Anyways, the Legion seems like a pretty neat team from the pictures I've seen on the DC site. Ferro, Triad, Gates, Sensor, and Umbra seem to be interesting characters.
I also plan on buying the trade paperback The Great Darkness Saga; unless, somebody here who is the ultimate Legion connoisseur thinks I should start with The Beginning of Tomorrow.
4AD_Punk
03/30/2004, 06:05
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
I eagerly anticipate participating in Rokk's Legion thread! Frankly, Rokk is the man! If you don't know what I'm talking about, click this: Rokk_Krinn's Bat-Villain Contest (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=86144).
Dang it!
Seems like my plug was in vain; didn't realize the Bat-Villain contest was over. If I was going to plug a contest that was over, a sensible person would have selected the epic (not an exaggeration or petty game of diction, folks) Doctor Mid-Nite contest.
I have been reading Legion since they became lost is space at the last reboot. Before that I read intermittently. The last time I read Legion there was an adult group and a teenaged group of clones or something in separate groups. How did that ever get reconciled? Which group is now in The Legion - the adults or the clones
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 10:00
Originally posted by Gator
I have been reading Legion since they became lost is space at the last reboot. Before that I read intermittently. The last time I read Legion there was an adult group and a teenaged group of clones or something in separate groups. How did that ever get reconciled? Which group is now in The Legion - the adults or the clones
Would you believe neither? The v4 Legion and Legionnaires (aka the Adults and the SW6 Legion) were brought to an end by "Zero Hour". 30-some years of Legion history erased (though Mark Waid did a fabulous send-off for the teams). They were then "rebooted" with the #0 issue (also by Mark doing a top-notch job). They're back to being youngsters (though even they've had to go against some pretty dark times in recent years). The TPB "Beginning of Tomorrow" collects the initial post-ZH stories.
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 10:03
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
Dang it!
Seems like my plug was in vain; didn't realize the Bat-Villain contest was over. If I was going to plug a contest that was over, a sensible person would have selected the epic (not an exaggeration or petty game of diction, folks) Doctor Mid-Nite contest.
4AD is definitely too kind and too generous with his words. :) Nontheless, I really need to hire you to go around as my publicist or something. Thanks again for the plugs and kind words!
I think my first issue was around 283-286. Right before the Great Darkness Saga and the legionnaires (Mon-el,Shadow Lass, Dream Girl, Karate Kid, and Princess Projectra) were prisoners on Orando. Dream Girl in conjunction with her flight ring and Shadow Lass broke free and beat down the sorcerers.
I remember thinking how cool Karate Kid and Dream Girl were.
The issue ended with Karate Kid and Princess Projectra quitting the Legion so Projectra could rule her home planet.
However, my favorite run of the legion was the V-4. I loved the whole thing start to finish. The Tenzil stories, destruction of earth, moon blowing up, khun war. loved it all.
I quit buying the current lsh a few years ago, but I still read it in the store. It just doesn't hold my interest, but I am optimistic it will get better again.
I loved the V4 stories. It had a manic feel to it that just made you know that something worse was always on the horizon. I liked the Subs being fleshed out and evolved into real characters and heroes most of all.
I still miss a lot from that run: Dawnstar, the Ayla/Vi romance, Darkseid's death, and much to much to write out. But I am loving the current run.
Tarnish
P.S. Funniest comic store moment for me ever: Two brothers looking through the comics. Younger brother, looking at an issue where Chuck is acting all wacky, asks older brother :So is Bouncing boy supposed to be gay? Older brother responds: No. He's dating Triplicate Girl. <pause> So not only is he straight he's a frickin' genius!
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 11:16
Noticing something interesting on this thread about the "Grim and Gritty Adult Legion" and figure I might as well chime in with my own v4 experiences.
When those first pages of "Five Years Later" popped-up, I admit I was giddy with anticipation. Back then I had no regular access to non-newstand comics and had gone through a lot to make sure I could get that issue #1 on release day. I was shocked and blown away - here was Rokk (at least finally married to Lydda) as powerless and forgotten by his own people. Cham talking about how he'd let his father's dream die. Dirk being, well, Dirk (c'mon, was anyone surprised by his post-Legion days? :) ). Shvaughn essentially a criminal? This Loomis guy was great - I mean, really great! - but where was the Legion?
I loved it and couldn't wait until issue #2. Jo's "solo" story was really starting to build things up - the Legion was starting to drift together again. It was like watching an approaching storm for enemies of the UP (oh, if only I'd realized faster that the UP _was_ the problem). Kono was intriguing, but seeing Jo back to leading gangs on Rimbor was fascinating. Sure, we'd always heard about his past but it had always been glazed over - never really seen "street-tough Jo Nah". He was even better than ever with his powers, it seemed, but where was Tinya? Oh. :( Between that and the real sentimentality of seeing Jo dig through the rubble for the shaving brush given to him by a true friend, it definitely had me salivating for issue #3.
In other words, v4 started off great. I had a lot of anticipation for what was going to come down the road. Then the Superman Editorial Fiasco happened to briefly derail and bog down everything (and I'd swear Keith's art was getting messier and weirder). Sure, seeing Rokk outmaneuver Mordru was great but all-in-all the storyline was a bit of a headache. It only got messier from there.
The Dominion Earth-Gov War. The Khund Invasion of the UP Academy (man, I always did like Chuck). The glimmer of optimistic hope in the SW6 Legion. The side-splitting "Tenzil in the Courtroom" issue (I so want to see _that_ on "Law & Order"). Loomis, Rokk and Kono vs. BION. Thom's baseball issue (it didn't seem to fit, but it was fun). There was some great stuff in there.
Unfortunately I - and from what I remember a lot of other fans - were going nuts over the less-than-great changes we were seeing. Nura acting out of character (not that I ever could stand her). The "blahness" of the Quiet Darkness storyline. Characters who's existence weren't acknowledged for years (or maybe a quick panel in umpteen issues). The need to read the RPG book for "fill in the blanks of those five years" (mind you I loved the book and still pull it out for reading). And these were "minor" compared to things like the Proty-Garth, Kid Retcon (er, Quantum), the focus on Kid Deux ex Machina (er, Quantum) and Tenzil over in Legionnaires (I like Tenzil but give me a break - every story focused on him it seemed) and - the real biggie - Jan and Sean Erin.
So, like many fans, I kept reading the v4 Legion and while I definitely liked parts of it - especially the feeling of experience and age that came with the adults - I just wasn't liking it overall. In fact, if it had continued in that path I'm not sure what I would have thought of it today. Then the reboot happened and we were back to having "bright and shiny optimistic youth" which was great (though I really miss some of those great stories and characters of the past which are now gone: Loomis, Lydda's marriage to Rokk, Kent Shakespeare, Devlin O'Ryan, etc.).
Then an interesting thing happened. Being it was no longer "canon", I was able to go back and read v4 in a completely different light. Like I said, if we'd been stuck with Sean Erin I'd be ranting about it still. Viewed as almost an extended "Elseworlds" tale it's a helluva great reading from beginning to end. Yep, there are rocky spots in there. However, like I said, I've really come to treasure some of those issues more now that it's no longer the official Legion stance.
In other words, for those who were shaky on v4 or never got to read it, I really urge you to go find the issues - they're pretty cheap (possibly even quarter bin) - and read them. See them as a great extended "Elseworlds" if it helps, but read them. There really is some epic adventure in there and y'know, I kinda' miss those adults. Might be fun watching these kids grow-up to be at least a little like that adult Legion.
SimonMoon5
03/30/2004, 11:44
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
I also plan on buying the trade paperback The Great Darkness Saga; unless, somebody here who is the ultimate Legion connoisseur thinks I should start with The Beginning of Tomorrow.
Well, while I think the Great Darkness Saga is a better story, it might just confuse you if you're new to the Legion. The Beginning of Tomorrow is, as the title suggests, the beginning of the current version of the Legion, while the GDS is a story of a version of the Legion that we will never see again.
Ignatz_Mouse
03/30/2004, 12:00
Anyone who likes Giffen's "messier and weirder" art should see if they can find a copy of Joe's Bar or Alec Sinner by Munoz and Sampayo. That's where Giffen was copying the style from (and it fits better there, too, tho I did like it in Legion).
eboladude
03/30/2004, 12:32
Ahhhh!! Finally a GOOD Legion thread!
I am one of those OLD Legion-lovers - I got hooked by the original Sun-Eater story by that marvelous panel where Sun Boy is trying to recruit Validus and gets blasted by the big guy's tantrum. I've been collecting them ever since.
My favorite issues? "The Greatest Hero of Them All" - best tribute to Superboy and the Legion origins of any story I've ever read. Loved the Time Trapper storyline resolution - only took 30 years!! Wasn't crazy about the Legion clones, but Waid talked their way out of that! The current series gets a B, only because I've seen all the best that the future has to offer.
Heroclix - Mordru was too weak, but more importantly, GIVE US THE FATAL FIVE - and I want Validus as a titan!!! And those dials better be representative of the five worst villains of their time! Emerald Empress alone has her own cluster of planets in her thrall. Mano's hand can vaporize a planet - what would it do to an 'impervious' defense? Tharok can go toe-to-toe with Brainiac 5 AND Metallo! Persuader's ax can cut through ANY defenses and will have a high attack value to boot!! Make mine bloody!!
Science Police is a good start, but I want Chemoids, Dominators, and Dark Circle types! Tyr, Nemesis Kid, and that teleporting guy in the globe! I want Pulsar Stargrave (okay, Brainiac), Starfinger, and I want that awful old Computo!! He'd kick Sentinel butt!
As to Waid being back on Legion - we'll get some awesome new storylines - that's a given! None of this apocalyptic guest-star who can whip the whole Legion with a shrug! He'll give us intrigue, color, character, and naked suspense! Sounds like Chameleon Boy all by himself!
Oh, and while you're all at it - how about some Legion Sub Heroclix too!! Wouldn't Stone Boy just make the perfect clix -you could just pretend his power was always on!
eboladude
03/30/2004, 12:32
Ahhhh!! Finally a GOOD Legion thread!
I am one of those OLD Legion-lovers - I got hooked by the original Sun-Eater story by that marvelous panel where Sun Boy is trying to recruit Validus and gets blasted by the big guy's tantrum. I've been collecting them ever since.
My favorite issues? "The Greatest Hero of Them All" - best tribute to Superboy and the Legion origins of any story I've ever read. Loved the Time Trapper storyline resolution - only took 30 years!! Wasn't crazy about the Legion clones, but Waid talked their way out of that! The current series gets a B, only because I've seen all the best that the future has to offer.
Heroclix - Mordru was too weak, but more importantly, GIVE US THE FATAL FIVE - and I want Validus as a titan!!! And those dials better be representative of the five worst villains of their time! Emerald Empress alone has her own cluster of planets in her thrall. Mano's hand can vaporize a planet - what would it do to an 'impervious' defense? Tharok can go toe-to-toe with Brainiac 5 AND Metallo! Persuader's ax can cut through ANY defenses and will have a high attack value to boot!! Make mine bloody!!
Science Police is a good start, but I want Chemoids, Dominators, and Dark Circle types! Tyr, Nemesis Kid, and that teleporting guy in the globe! I want Pulsar Stargrave (okay, Brainiac), Starfinger, and I want that awful old Computo!! He'd kick Sentinel butt!
As to Waid being back on Legion - we'll get some awesome new storylines - that's a given! None of this apocalyptic guest-star who can whip the whole Legion with a shrug! He'll give us intrigue, color, character, and naked suspense! Sounds like Chameleon Boy all by himself!
Oh, and while you're all at it - how about some Legion Sub Heroclix too!! Wouldn't Stone Boy just make the perfect clix -you could just pretend his power was always on!
SimonMoon5
03/30/2004, 12:44
Originally posted by eboladude
GIVE US THE FATAL FIVE - and I want Validus as a titan!!! And those dials better be representative of the five worst villains of their time! Emerald Empress alone has her own cluster of planets in her thrall. Mano's hand can vaporize a planet - what would it do to an 'impervious' defense? Tharok can go toe-to-toe with Brainiac 5 AND Metallo! Persuader's ax can cut through ANY defenses and will have a high attack value to boot!!
Okay, here you go:
Mano
Speed: 6
Attack: 10 (Quake)
Defense: 16 (Combat Reflexes)
Damage: 4 (Exploit Weakness)
Range: 6, 1 arrow
Persuader
Speed: 6
Attack: 11 (BCF: cuts through anything)
Defense: 16 (Toughness)
Damage: 3
Range: 0
Tharok
Speed: 6
Attack: 8 (possibly with Incapacitate)
Defense: 15 (Toughness)
Damage: 2 (Outwit)
Range: 8
Glen Quagmire
03/30/2004, 15:31
First issue: Annual #1, featuring the return of Computo, the new Invisible Kid, and just about every Legionnaire. I was in second grade when I got this one, and I didn't really appreciate it all that much. It just took a few years, though, and I was enthralled.
Started picking up the Legion regularly with the tryout issue in v3 that introduced Quislet and Sensor Girl. Beginning here and going through "End of an Era," the Legion was a true monthly highlight for me. Only started faltering for me with the reboot, and I had to drop the titles a few times before DnA set the ship right.
Love the older stuff, too. I purchase about one archive a year, and back in the 80s they had those digests with the old Adventure Comics stories. I had one with the Dynamo Boy story and the Moby #### of Space story that I read and re-read to death. Glad I have those now in the sturdier hardcover format. :cool:
I would recomend the Begining of Tommorow TPB first too, just because Great Darkness is a lot better if you know who the players are (literally a cast of billions, and feel free to ask us who some of the smaller players are, like when the Champions of Lallor show up.)
Anyone else fondly remember what I think of as my first "elseworlds" story, when Ferro Lad's brother, and in some way the time beacon was involved but I dont remember that part very well, was sifting through different futures, and there were a bunch of horrible legion futures before he found one where they let him join. I remember being very sad because the real Legion would have probably let him join too if he wasn't all, you know, comatose...
Also, anyone remember yet my question about the Legion/Dial H for Hero/Superboy crossover? It probably would have been early 80s. Just wish I could figure out what it was so I can try to find it again...
Originally posted by malreux
Anyone else fondly remember what I think of as my first "elseworlds" story, when Ferro Lad's brother, and in some way the time beacon was involved but I dont remember that part very well, was sifting through different futures, and there were a bunch of horrible legion futures before he found one where they let him join. I remember being very sad because the real Legion would have probably let him join too if he wasn't all, you know, comatose...
Legion #300. Great story. It also put to rest the "Adult Legion" future that had been, up to that point, thought to be written in stone (Who would have thought that "Grim" future would actually have been preferrable to the one we eventually got under Giffen & co. ;) )
So Beginning of Tomorrow starts the new Legion, I'll get that TPB. Is there a TPB wrapping up the young and old legion storylines or is it all in Legion #300?
I was introduced to the LSH during one vacation to a small town in Northern Ontario (Wawa, home of the Wawa Goose!). My cousin had a stack of old comics. In with the Sad Sack and Archies was a coverless comic starring Superman. It was one of the Adult Legion stories, and was just...cool.
Later that same vacation, in a convenience store, I saw an issue of LSH on the rack. On the cover was Reflecto. "Hey!" I said, "That's the guy who was in the hall of dead heroes, that nobody knows anything about.". Right there, I got the sense that the Legion had a full history, and that this history was an important aspect of the book. It's been pretty much good stuff since (though I did drop it soon after the reboot, but have started picking it up again recently).
I think my reintroduction is due mostly to the Legion Companion published by Two Morrows Publishing. An excellent book, and very highly recommended.
For those interested in Legion clix, here's a few (http://clix.themakis.net/mordru-2.jpg) I've modded myself. Enjoy!
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 20:27
Originally posted by Gator
So Beginning of Tomorrow starts the new Legion, I'll get that TPB. Is there a TPB wrapping up the young and old legion storylines or is it all in Legion #300?
The "putting to rest of the Adult Legion" story referred to for LSH v2 #300 actually involves an old Silver Age "glimpse of the future" tale. The "Grim and Gritty Adult" LSH and SW6 Young Legionnaires resolution hasn't been collected but was resolved in the issues before the Zero Hour Reboot.
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 20:34
Originally posted by eboladude
Heroclix - Mordru was too weak, but more importantly, GIVE US THE FATAL FIVE - and I want Validus as a titan!!!
and that teleporting guy in the globe!
Don't laugh but I've been working at making a "boxed set" (okay, for myself as I've no one with whom I can play HeroClix :) ) of the Sun-Eater storyline. The five Legionnaires Silver Age style (Cos, Sun Boy, Jeckie, Superboy and Ferro Lad), the Fatal Five and - here's the fun part :) - a Sun-Eater template with scenario rules. Alas, while the dials and the template are coming along nicely, I need to find a decent modder to hire.
Oh, and the teleporting globe was Zymyr of the Gil'Dishpan. Man, I loved the way he talked and those funky word bubbles used to illustrate it. :)
theZehrung
03/30/2004, 20:36
Hey, Meat....nice looking Wildfire you got there!!!! Loved that guy! Hope to see him in the next set...makes sense since he has an EE/RS power.....for the Legion! I am working on my Dawnstar project....still not satsified with her wings...will wait til I get an extra Hawkgirl...and see how it works. :rolleyes:
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 20:42
Originally posted by malreux
Also, anyone remember yet my question about the Legion/Dial H for Hero/Superboy crossover? It probably would have been early 80s. Just wish I could figure out what it was so I can try to find it again...
Sorry Mal. Meant to answer this one sooner. It's "Superboy #50" from 1984. It was a giant-size anniversary issue and I want to say the main Legionnaires were Cham, Thom and Wildfire (at least they were the cover-heroes...I really remember the cover for some reason).
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2004, 20:45
Originally posted by theZehrung
Hey, Meat....nice looking Wildfire you got there!!!! Loved that guy! Hope to see him in the next set...makes sense since he has an EE/RS power.....for the Legion! I am working on my Dawnstar project....still not satsified with her wings...will wait til I get an extra Hawkgirl...and see how it works. :rolleyes:
I'd recommend giving Archangel's wings a try for Dawny. The DC Hawk-type's wings seem awfully short in sculpt vs. the full-length wings they gave Warren and the Image unique.
Yeah, the angel wings, on a figure that is a little smaller than his, should look about right...
Thanks Rokk, gives me something to look for. I wouldn't have remembered giant size on my own, though I do have the chuck's wedding and Mordru chases them back to smallville giant sized.
4AD_Punk
03/30/2004, 23:46
Here's a question:
The Legion appears to be a corps of intergalactic (cliche term?) super heroes that include aliens of various races. The Legion has a multitude of players in their ranks.
Is there a substantial correlation that can be made between The Legion and the Green Lantern Corps? Has the GL Corps ever encountered The Legion? I just thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion considering both teams are rather expansive with representation from various alien races.
I'm not that familiar with The Legion, but it appears Legionnaires have their own special abilities while GL Corps members seem to be ordinary beings who gain powers with the rings.
ARRRGG ebay has Superboy ##36 #37 #39 #40 #47 #50 currently at two dollars. Clearly the right one (#50) as there is Wildfire, Thom, and Cham on the cover standing on an H dial. Wont take paypal and only uses UPS to Canada WHICH DOESNT COME HERE! FEEL MY PAIN!
Longtime Legion friend Ron Vidar (son of Legion villain Universo as I recall) was a green lantern who married daxamite supergirl replacement Andromeda or whatever she was called at the start. I seem to remember old school pre Griffen Legion encountering actual Green Lanterns as well. I think the modern group got away from that because of the unsteady future of a Green Lantern Corp in modern DCU (until recently...maybe) Of course, best use of the Green Lanterns was in the brilliant Green Lantern defense used by Tenzil in Polar Boy's trial during the Giffen Era "Look, his ring is powerless against the color yellow!"
Funniest Comic Ever!
Except maybe either of the Legion of Substitute Hero's Specials, especially the Ambush Bug one, or the existance Arm-Fall-Off-Boy or Echo Chamber Chet.
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2004, 00:40
The GL Corps have actually had a mixed relationship with the 30th Century and the United Planets (most especially Earth).
Rond Vidar was a hidden Green Lantern - the reason for that being the banning of GL's from the Earth sector (and they weren't too welcome on a lot of the other UP worlds). When Rond finally had to reveal his GL status (back in v3 #50) he ended up having to go wandering. As noted by Mal, in v4 Rond had gone and "common law married" Andromeda and only got to briefly use the ring before it basically got removed from the title. Post-ZH Rond has shown no indication of being a GL.
An Oan was used as a template for a Servant of Darkness in the original GDS and in the recent "Foundations" there was a GL serving Darkseid.
Kyle Rayner did get to go to the 30th Century and encounter a GL descendant of his, along with the Legion. Once again, she was not welcome on Earth, if I remember correctly (I only got to read the story once before I lost track of the issues) and was trying to keep her status secret. Perhaps a more regular reader of "Green Lantern" can answer this part better.
Back in v3 during the "Millenium" crossover it was revealed long-time character Laurel Kent was a Manhunter robot. She'd been in "sleeper mode" for a really long time but no longer had any superiors to whom to report (an "homage" to her and Dawnstar recently appeared in the Justice League Animated comic book, by the way).
Basically, the GL Corps seem to be fairly defunct by the 30th Century. The Guardians have vanished and the few remaining rings seem to be closely guarded secrets. It's never been revealed why everyone hates the GL's so much, but I'm going to blame that ego-monger Hal here. :)
Also, lets not forget that the Controllers have had a remarkable effect on Legion History...
I seem to remember an Old Legion (OL?) story that involved several Green Lanterns and ended with them being asked to leave UP space but I cant for the life of me remember what happened. Have to try to drag out my box this weekend I guess. Hmmm, also there have been some statements that the Emerald Eye is either a kryptonian artifact, an oan relic, or some sort of hybrid (I know that old school Emerald Eye had kryptonite power blasts, and a weakness to kryptonite, cant remember if the Oan reference was old or new)
Also, it looks like Nucleus of the Legion of Galactic Guardians 2099 might have been doing a Power Ring style effect, but that is pure speculation on my part, and a bit of a reach to boot...
Oh yeah, and Celeste Rockfish was apparently a living power ring or battery of some sort, but I can't remember us ever getting a real explanation of that.
That reminds me, while I am being remember issues for me hog on the thread, anyone remember the JLA (satelite JLA I think) fighting Mordru. I believe he was orbiting the earth in a safe and tricked some of the JLAers into getting trapped in the safe after he escaped. ANy info is appreciated.
David Akers
03/31/2004, 01:27
The Green Lantern issue is LSH (2nd series) #295.
My first super-hero comics (as far as I remember) were LSH 273 and 274. I remember that I got them at the local grocery store, and I chose them because they were the only two consecutive issues I could find. I figured that way I was safe if the story continued into the next issue. :)
-David
David Akers
03/31/2004, 01:28
Oh, and the JLA/JSA/LSH crossover was in Justice League of America #147 and 148.
-David
EVIL CAP
03/31/2004, 07:35
Wow this topic grew quick :surprised
Anyways i think ill add Legion to my list now based on the reccomendations[It work for JSA so why not?]
Ignatz_Mouse
03/31/2004, 10:01
The JLA/JSA/Legion crossover was one of tghe first comics I bought when I started collecting (like, really one of the first. Like that month). I liked JSA already from a friend's collection (the Earth-2 thing turned me on) and here was yet *another* cool team, so I started buying that, too.
Oh, regarding Gls-- Universo was a GL who went rogue, trying (like Krona) to determine the origin of the universe. The Oans booted him. I believe the UP afterwars decided they didn't want any GLs around, period. Rond Vidar was later shown to be one, secretly. All pre-reboot.
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2004, 11:25
Doh! I should have specified that I meant post-ZH no one knows why GL's have been banned (as Universo definitely didn't strike me as a former GL). Nontheless, can't believe I forgot to mention Universo's role in everything pre-ZH or Celeste (who was definitely tied into the emerald energy). Teaches me to dash off a post before bed.
Don't know if they ever 100% verified that the Eye was tied into Oan energy (though its beams were later classified as quasi-mystical as well which might meant Starheart) but Dave Cockrum did have a story he wanted to tell where the Eye and the GL Main Power Battery all drew from the same dimension.
Speaking of Universo, anyone else feel that the recent Universo storyline was a stranger (and, frankly weaker) version of that wonderful multi-parter from the v3 Baxter Paper days? The one where Brainy actually holds off most of the Legion for awile. :) Maybe that's where they got that ridiculous Mastermind power for him...:(
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Speaking of Universo, anyone else feel that the recent Universo storyline was a stranger (and, frankly weaker) version of that wonderful multi-parter from the v3 Baxter Paper days? The one where Brainy actually holds off most of the Legion for awile. :) Maybe that's where they got that ridiculous Mastermind power for him...:(
But wasn't that story a re-working of an even older Universo story?
BTW, I hated the recent version, because everyone seemed to know who Universo was and recognised the threat. But if the events of the Legion/Titans mini were "erased" from the timeline as the story suggests, then the Legion should have no clue as to who this guy was.
Hey, Meat....nice looking Wildfire you got there!!!! Loved that guy! Hope to see him in the next set...makes sense since he has an EE/RS power.....for the Legion! I am working on my Dawnstar project....still not satsified with her wings...will wait til I get an extra Hawkgirl...and see how it works.
Thanks!
Oh, and I made what I think is a passable Dawnstar (http://clix.themakis.net/dawnstar.jpg) using Hawkman wings. I never was able to get her plunging neckline though.
I've actually finished quite a few old style Legion clicks. If you head to my clix page (http://clix.themakis.net) you can see them all (actually, all my mods of varying quality...)
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2004, 11:38
Originally posted by rouge2
But wasn't that story a re-working of an even older Universo story?
Well, sadly, I think most Universo stories are just the same plot rehashed (except his role in v4). :) What I meant to say was that this story seemed geared specifically to replace that v3 one as it was primarily the same Legionnaires whom he considered the Big Threat (don't ask me how anyone could consider the current Dreamer a threat - or the previous one for that matter :) ).
While Titans/Legion may have been "erased" (though I'm not certain if it wasn't just the Titans who had their memory altered to prevent knowledge of the future), I could've sworn Universo appeared elsewhere post-ZH. Hard to keep track of which stories are Reboot and which aren't anymore. :(
I loved Dream Crime. Maybe because I had not read the previos Universo stories, but I loved DnA's dialogue for that story. "I am more." became more and more frightening upon repetition.
I don't think the current series slowed down a bit until Foundations (more a tribute to TGDS than a rehash).
The only thing I've hated so far is reintroducing Suberboy. Not because of S-Boy himself (who I like), but because he will take time from Mon El (Valor). But I realise he was probably brought in by editorial to help boost sales. Hoping to bing in some TT readers, which is a good thing.
Luckily LSH s a DC title, because with Marvel's policy of cancelling anything not in the top 100, our poor heroes would have been toast.
The Legion has been the best team book out there for like 3 years, and it's amazing more don't know about it.
My first LSH issue was the one where Tyroc joined.
I became a fan with The Great Darkness Saga.
I left when Giffen left, but came back with Legion Lost, becuse I am a big fan of DnA from there Marvel UK and Punisher days.
Superego Lad
03/31/2004, 15:12
I've been reading Legion titles since the 70's. I took a brief hiatus when things got so dark and gloomy, even though I later had to go back and get the back issues. (sigh)
The reboots do get confusing at times but the spirit of the characters tends to remain the same. I tend to think of comics as akin to myth cycles anyway constantly being modified and retold.
Mr. Pilkington
03/31/2004, 15:36
I got into Legion (I have to say Legion 'cause I wasn't buying back in LSH days) when Dream Crime came out, but I almost immediately secured the rest of the The Legion series to that point and then snapped up Legion Lost and Legion Worlds (Lost was a bit difficult to find... I wish they had a tpb for it). Anyway, I really like it but have been hesitant to try delving farther back (a fair amount due to the sheer number of LSH versions and lack of good descriptions in secondary market sources like eBay).
Anyway, when exactly did ZH happen? I'm confused about where the rebbot was and how far back I have to go to reach it. I really wish DC would slap out more tpbs for LSH comics. I know you can get the really old stuff in the achives books, but I was hoping to get the more recent stuff.
Originally posted by Mr. Pilkington
Anyway, when exactly did ZH happen? I'm confused about where the rebbot was and how far back I have to go to reach it. I really wish DC would slap out more tpbs for LSH comics. I know you can get the really old stuff in the achives books, but I was hoping to get the more recent stuff.
Post- Zero Hour or "Reboot" Legion started with special "0" issues of both Legion of Super-Heroes and Legionnaires, which started continuity over from scratch. Then the stories continued in issue 61 of LSH and 19 of Legionnaires (stories continued from one to the other so it was basically a twice monthly book). The first stories of each are in a TPB called "The Beginning of Tomorrow". The current continuity goes from these issues to the end of both series, followed by Legion Lost, Legion Worlds and the current Legion.
There were a few awful minis best left alone, but still probably in continuity: "Science Police" & "Legends of the Legion". There was also a fairly decent crossover mini: "Titans/Legion: Universe Ablaze", a few appearances in Superboy and, during the "stranded in the 20th Century" arc, they jumped into just about everybody's book for guest shots.
Man, I can't believe I never drew a line from the Emerald Eye to the Starheart. That makes so much sense someone should point it out to the writers...They even kind of sound the same if you past the EYE business and just see the themes it harps on compared to say, Starheart to Sentienl in the whole Obsidian/Jade thing (was that princes of darkness? or earlier)
I think ZH happened right before the last reboot, trade paperback collection is called The Begining of Tommorow I think (have a copy, just dont remember the name)
Also, now that it is pointed out, the fact that this site censors the name of ######## BOY is pretty hilarious
(Gim Allon)
Man, I can't believe I never drew a line from the Emerald Eye to the Starheart.
Is L.E.G.I.O.N / R.E.B.E.L.S. still in continuity? If so, a couple of emerald eyes show up in that series, which would make a direct link to the starheart somewhat difficult (though they could have a shared origin, naturally...)
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2004, 20:21
Originally posted by Meat
Is L.E.G.I.O.N / R.E.B.E.L.S. still in continuity? If so, a couple of emerald eyes show up in that series, which would make a direct link to the starheart somewhat difficult (though they could have a shared origin, naturally...)
L.E.G.I.O.N. is still in continuity, yes but, honestly multiple "children" or connections to the Starheart wouldn't be unreasonable. Look how many talismans feed from the same source of magic in DC. An advanced race could've figured out a way to create Emerald Eyes that feed off of the Starheart. For that matter, the Starheart has kind-of replicated itself in Jade having similar powers to Alan (interesting that her power doesn't usually have the Starheart's flaming effect but, at least it has on occasion been cited as magical in nature).
This week's issue:
I tried. Really I did. I tried to keep an open mind and take everything with a grain of salt, but I just couldn't do it. Giffen's art (most people get better as they age, Giffen seems to just get worse) and undeniable "comedic" footprints on the story just threw me off. I liked the Bwah-Ha-Ha style on JLI and loved Ambush Bug. On "Formerly Known As..." it was OK, but honestly didn't seem as fresh. In Legion it just plain doesn't work for me. Flat story all around.
Hoping the fresh start in a few months really clears the air...
Heh, Laurel Gand is the Supergirl replacement, Laurel Kent was the supposed Clark Kent descendant in the legion academy that turned out to be a manhunter android
4AD_Punk
04/02/2004, 03:38
Originally posted by rouge2
This week's issue:
I tried. Really I did. I tried to keep an open mind and take everything with a grain of salt, but I just couldn't do it. Giffen's art (most people get better as they age, Giffen seems to just get worse) and undeniable "comedic" footprints on the story just threw me off. I liked the Bwah-Ha-Ha style on JLI and loved Ambush Bug. On "Formerly Known As..." it was OK, but honestly didn't seem as fresh. In Legion it just plain doesn't work for me. Flat story all around.
Hoping the fresh start in a few months really clears the air...
This was the first issue of The Legion I have read. Tragically, I was not reading Legion when they started the Foundations story-line.
Yeah, the art was kind of whack, for lack of better words. However, I only think the art was bad at the beginning: I had a difficult time trying to decipher what was happening when Gear and Chuck are walking through the rubble. It was dark, splotchy, and meshed together. However, the art did get better; although I didn't like the way Superboy was drawn.
Question: Are Gear and Chuck Legionnaires? Or are they like tech guys?
All in all, I enjoyed this issue. I thought it was funny with Chuck and Gear constantly (although not intentionally) ribbing on Superboy about his hygiene. I thought it was a good self-contained story that was amusing.
I look forward to my subscription and future issues of The Legion!
Rokk_Krinn
04/02/2004, 10:44
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
Question: Are Gear and Chuck Legionnaires? Or are they like tech guys?
Gear is basically a Legionnaire that works primarily as a techie but because he does have powers (tech-interface, creation of guns from his parts, etc.) he does go on missions (such as battling parademons on Apokolipse).
Chuck Taine - one of the greatest Legion characters :) - is a the head engineer and tech officer of the Legion. He's an honourary Legionnaire and basically oversees all of Legion World. Pre-Reboot he actually was a Legionnaire: none other than the famous Bouncing Boy! Post-ZH, no powers for Chuck but he has piloted a rather nifty spacecraft known by his old moniker. Not sure of his current relation with Triad - they've gone on a few dates and all three personalities like him, but I don't think they're a regular couple yet - but in pre-ZH days he was married to her (well, two of her...her third part (Orange) had been killed off by C.O.M.P.U.T.O.).
Lightshear
04/02/2004, 15:18
Yeah, the story was fun but the art just didn't sail. It wasn't appaling, exactly, but it didn't really work for Legion. I loveloveLOVED Olivier Coipel's Legion work - the perfect kind of future-tech world with sleek-tech costuming, just *Drool*. I was settling in to the new art after him (blanking on the guy's name). But this ish just didn't cut it.
On the other hand, I'm really liking Chuck and Gear. And at least *mentioning* Andromeda was nice. Now they just need to bring her back in, full time. Yo! Andromeda! Only the good die young, sweetheart!
EVIL CAP
04/03/2004, 07:26
OK iss 31 was my first Legion comic ever.I could tell its in thewwake of a major storyline[the hole in the base tipped me off as much as the mention of Darksied].It was kind of a neat idea seeing a funny story right after something big like that much more entertaining than most "Aftermath" type stories.I like Superboy alot in Teen Titans so seeing him featured so much was also cool and his victory over the nanites cracked me up as well as the few gags spread throughou[the Cosmic Boy and Kid Quantum one especially]
Lightshear
04/03/2004, 20:13
Oh, yeah, Cap! That subtle little gag was brilliant. Laughed out loud. Oh, Rokk, you dog, you!;)
Rokk_Krinn
04/03/2004, 23:59
Sigh...I really can't stand Kid Retcon or his successor. Okay, I almost could stand Jaz at first but since the newest Legion series started she's been annoying (and I really hate deux ex machina powers).
I wish the writers would bring back Lydda. :(
(For those new the Legion and wondering what I'm babbling about, it's in reference to the Cos/Kid Quantum relationship :) ).
4AD_Punk
04/05/2004, 06:50
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Gear is basically a Legionnaire that works primarily as a techie but because he does have powers (tech-interface, creation of guns from his parts, etc.) he does go on missions (such as battling parademons on Apokolipse).
Chuck Taine - one of the greatest Legion characters :) - is a the head engineer and tech officer of the Legion. He's an honourary Legionnaire and basically oversees all of Legion World. Pre-Reboot he actually was a Legionnaire: none other than the famous Bouncing Boy! Post-ZH, no powers for Chuck but he has piloted a rather nifty spacecraft known by his old moniker. Not sure of his current relation with Triad - they've gone on a few dates and all three personalities like him, but I don't think they're a regular couple yet - but in pre-ZH days he was married to her (well, two of her...her third part (Orange) had been killed off by C.O.M.P.U.T.O.).
Yeah, I was curious if Gear was a Legionnaire: in the latest issue he transformed his arm to a gun and created a pair of goggles from his eyes. The guy has definite powers just to be a standard and boring tech-guy! When you say he's basically a Legionnaire, is he not "officially" a Legion member? Does he have a flight ring (isn't this what all Legion members have)?
Unlike Gear, Chuck Taine didn't appear to be a Legionnaire; he just seemed like a regular dude. It's awesome to know he was Bouncing Boy before Crisis (or are you referring to Zero Hour?). I wonder why he wasn't given any powers post-reboot.
Rokk_Krinn
04/05/2004, 10:05
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
Yeah, I was curious if Gear was a Legionnaire: in the latest issue he transformed his arm to a gun and created a pair of goggles from his eyes. The guy has definite powers just to be a standard and boring tech-guy! When you say he's basically a Legionnaire, is he not "officially" a Legion member? Does he have a flight ring (isn't this what all Legion members have)?
Unlike Gear, Chuck Taine didn't appear to be a Legionnaire; he just seemed like a regular dude. It's awesome to know he was Bouncing Boy before Crisis (or are you referring to Zero Hour?). I wonder why he wasn't given any powers post-reboot.
Gears has a flight ring (though just to warn, honourary Legionnaires such as Chuck and Shvaughn also pack the rings).
Yep, I mean Zero Hour. Anytime you see the term "Reboot" for the LSH, it refers to Zero Hour (so pre-Reboot is pre-ZH and post-Reboot is post-ZH). It took awhile - namely for the Superman editorial office to start jacking with things - before Crisis really affected the Legion. It was an immediate affect when Zero Hour hit and caused a reboot. 30-some years of continuity, gone poof!
I would imagine Chuck hasn't been given powers post-ZH because, frankly, a lot of people thought of Bouncing Boy as a joke. Sure he was the team's morale officer and well-loved but did turning into a giant inflatable ball really make you worthy of the Legion? For the record, I'd say yes as you should've seen some of the things Chuck did with his power - it would be like the Blob hitting you with a Toad-style leap attack. :) Unfortunately, most people didn't think it fit - and really, with the style the Reboot Legion was going with, it didn't - but by having Chuck as the Legion's "Scotty" we get to have a wonderful part of Legion history still active. I'm actually pretty pleased with the Reboot Chuck - he's possibly more useful to the LSH this way and is certainly more valued by the members in this capacity (he's already pulled their bacon out of the fire more than a few times).
Yeah, if we could get Chuck AND Tenzil back in action...(although they were featured a lot more prominently in the Moy era legion...) My two very favorite Legionairs,and they are seldom seen suport staff for the time being...
I understand that some don't like Keith Giffen's style, but the comment that he doesn't fit The Legion was kind of funny to see. I'm assuming it's a younger reader.
Giffen's contributions to The LSH cannot be overstated. Even with all the reboots, his "footprints" still touch everything.
Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen were to The LSH what Claremont and Byrne were to The X-Men. I don't honestly believe we would have a Legion book today if it wasn't for these gentlemen. LSH would have become one of those books lost to history.
Before Giffen (and before he changed his style), the future looked like blocky red and yellow buildings with "flash Gordon" style rocket ships. Giffen changed the whole style, look, and functionality of technology for the 30th century which is still the bluprint handed to all other artists today.
Not to mention the long running tradition of gag humour. Anyone still remember Garfield posing in the Legion photo way back in #300? In the latest issue I loved Proty sitting in the bar with a drink in his hand, and Ambush Bug's antennae behind Gear's shoulder.
Originally posted by Briel
I understand that some don't like Keith Giffen's style, but the comment that he doesn't fit The Legion was kind of funny to see. I'm assuming it's a younger reader.
Giffen's contributions to The LSH cannot be overstated. Even with all the reboots, his "footprints" still touch everything.
Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen were to The LSH what Claremont and Byrne were to The X-Men. I don't honestly believe we would have a Legion book today if it wasn't for these gentlemen. LSH would have become one of those books lost to history.
I'll agree that Levitz & Giffen were the true Golden Age, but that was before Giffens art transformed (some would say degraded) to his "Nine Panel Grid" days, and well before they actually let him start writing the stuff.
Compare the Great Darkness Saga or the LSV story that kicked off V3 to Giffen's V4 (or later) work. There's seriously a huge difference that I found negatively impacted the book. I also never enjoyed his emphasis on humour in the Legion books. Like I said, it was brilliant elsewhere (especially Ambush Bug), but it never sat well with me in Legion and this issue just reminded me of how true that still is.
I loved The Five Years Later storyline.
I don't feel Keith has degraded. He has completely changed though and I can see what you say. I do feel The Great Darkness Saga was the pinnacle of his previous style. After the change the best thing he did was a 4 issue Dr Fate mini that introduced the Strausses (no comedy in this one folks).
No disrespect was intended. It just sounded like some were not aware of who Giffen is.
Originally posted by Briel
No disrespect was intended.
None intended on my part either. I think Giffen's later stylings (both art and storytelling) are very much a "Love it or Leave it" affair. I certainly didn't mean to infer it's wrong to like v4 and such, just that there are varied opinions of Keith's work. Mine being that it just doesn't do it for me.
Rokk_Krinn
04/06/2004, 20:50
While Keith Giffen has definitely been an integral and wonderful part of Legion history, I'm afraid I would disagree that without him the Legion would be left to history. The Legion is one of those wonderful titles that has somehow managed to persevere over the years - more than once it has been written off as about to die, yet in a few short years it quickly bounces back to do something like becoming DC's top selling title or kicking a major comic icon out of his own series. :) I guess what I'm saying is that while Keith was definitely what the Legion needed at the time, I don't think the comic's world would be without Legion had he not existed.
Speaking of that time when the Legion booted Superboy from his own title, that was really when the Legion got away from the "rocketship" era - long before Keith Giffen, in other words. It was work by the likes of Dave Cockrum - who literally took the Legion out of rockets and put them in the early models of those starcruisers with which we became so familiar - and Mike Grell that really helped the Legion matured. Heck, not only did Dave give them some risque outfits (finally taking them out of the Silver Age) but he even started them having more adult relationships. I only point this out because one of the posters said that prior to Keith the Legion was stuck in rockets and blocky buildings - Keith's great, but I can't give him the credit for doing that. The Legion was maturing and advancing a good decade before Keith took them to newfound heights of glory.
Mr. Pilkington
04/07/2004, 10:59
I saw something in another thread which I figured LSH fans would be interested in. There are a couple of figures with Charge and Quake at the same time in Unleashed. With this power combo you can knock enemies around like bowling pins and RP noted that this would be perfect for Bouncing Boy. :)
The real question is which version do you prefer:
Dawnstar: Winged decendent of Native Americans. Tracking powers and a neckline plunging below her navel.
or
Shikari: Winged member of a nomadic tribe. Tracking powers and a wicked sense of humour.
I personally find I love both versions of the character, but sometimes I miss those widespread wings. I am glad they are redeveloping her relationship with Wildfire.
Mr. Pilkington
04/07/2004, 15:22
I'm looking forward to modding a new Queen Bee figure into a Shikari. I never read older LSH stuff, so I have no idea who Dawnstar really was.
Originally posted by Briel
The real question is which version do you prefer:
Dawnstar: Winged decendent of Native Americans. Tracking powers and a neckline plunging below her navel.
or
Shikari: Winged member of a nomadic tribe. Tracking powers and a wicked sense of humour.
I personally find I love both versions of the character, but sometimes I miss those widespread wings. I am glad they are redeveloping her relationship with Wildfire.
While I'm enjoying Shikari more than I thought i would, she's no replacement for Dawny!
Dawnstar was always one of my favourites. Partly because she, Blok and Jacques all joined around the time I started reading, partly because she'd so freakin' hot, but mostly because she was a completely unique female character that I had never seen in comics before. She had a hard attitude, and a touch of arrogance about her that made her stand out. She also had a touching, tragic relationship with Wildfire that made me re-evaluate whether romance had a place in Super-Hero comics afterall.
She was awesome.
Lightshear
04/08/2004, 20:36
Briel:
Giffen is great, and I'm fully aware of the impact on Legion which he left behind, but you pointed out the problem in your own post. It was the Byrne/Claremont remark.
Would anybody say that Byrne's "art" *couhcoughHACKcoughcough* would fit the tone of a current X-book? I mean, he helped define the look that blossomed into what we know, so he ought to still be able to rock it out, right? No chance. Not only has Byrne carpped out immensely (which I don't really think Giffen has - I like it a lot in a Darwyn Cooke sort of way), but the bar has been raised considerably since he left to the point where his work just wouldn't feel right by comparison. Similarly, am I the only one who feels like every time Claremont has come back to X-Men it's been a little bit worse than the last time?
So, while I respect and admire the impact of classic creators on the books they elevated, that isn't a "free pass" to come back to the book if their work no longer fits the comic.
Quick hits: Shikari is fantastic - an alien who actually seems alien in more than just appearance; Tenzil is a long-time fave of mine, and needs more coverage; Chuck is great as he is - re-inflating him would be a mistake.
Just my opinions, and I don't mean to put anybody off. Even if you DO like Byrne. *shudder* ;)
Actually I think in two cases, Shikari and the new Projectra (until her transformation anyway) Legion did what I dont think I had seen a sci fi superhero book do well, make a likeable non human alien. Not sure why they wanted too go and change her. In other news, got my Legion companion. Was excited to see they used a Jeff Moy picture a quarter panel of the Jerry Siegel section that i have a bunch of originals of the series of. At San Diego when I went a few years ago I went to see if the Moys had any legion pages left (because I had been picking them up for like $25 to $45 the time I went before. They didnt have any great pages left, but remembered me from when I had been there a few years earlier (probably because of my tattoo) and dug out a bunch of other legion stuff in their bag, got some great pencil sketches, on good stiff paper, or Vi, Phantom girl, Ultra Boy, and a couple of others, $10 each. Man I love that con. Plus I got Jeff to draw me a Chuck and Phil to draw me a Tenzil just while we were chatting, didnt want money for it (lots of guys there were asking $10-25 for quick sketches, but lots were doing it free) what really put it over the top for me was when Phil also INKED mine.
Rokk_Krinn
04/08/2004, 22:57
Originally posted by malreux
Actually I think in two cases, Shikari and the new Projectra (until her transformation anyway) Legion did what I dont think I had seen a sci fi superhero book do well, make a likeable non human alien.
Don't forget poor Quislet pre-ZH. :) Guess you could add Blok in there too (though, like Shikari, he's still pretty humanoid) or the original Blob: Proty. :)
I agree - the Moys are top-notch friendly guys and really seem to enjoy knowing their fans. Gal I date is on pretty good terms with Jeff (they trade artwork, webwork, etc. fairly regularly) and he recently offered to make a Dr. Mid-Nite (Pieter) for her to give to me (as he knows I really didn't like the "dead Cos" picture he put up on her website. :) ). Like Mal says, they're really worth meeting as they're just exceptionally nice and seem pretty passionate about their art.
The gospel according to Briel:
JOHN BYRNE IS GOD OF COMICS!
SALVADOR LARROCA IS SON OF GOD OF COMICS!
All others are heretics
End of sermon. LOL!
All kidding aside, a series should be able to stand up to multiple interpretations.
Jack Kirby
Steranko
Werner Roth
Neal Adams
Dave Cockrum
John Byrne
John Romita Jr
Bill Sienkwiecz
Arthur Adams
Jim Lee
Whilce Portacio
Adam and Andy Kubert
Marc Silvestri
Alan Davis
Ian Churchill
Sean Phillips
Frank Quitely
Joe Madueira
Igor Korday
All these guys have very different styles but served X-Men well over the years.
Variety won't hurt The Legion either. What hurt LSH in the past was when nothing changed. Our lads and lasses were almost done before Legion Lost restoked the fires. Legion Worlds showed us many great artists taking a swing.
I do draw attention to Hawkman #26 for a look at Byrne still in full swing. He also did some nice work in Generations III. Over in JLA, Ordway is just the wrong inker for him is all.
X-Men: The Hidden Years is much missed by me and many others.
While I admit Claremont is not for everyone, and the greatest tales may have been told, he still kicks the crud out of Chuck Austen any day of the week.
I'll shut up now as this is a Legion Thread. I actually signed on with The Legion because it hurt too much to look at X-Men anymore (except Xtreme).
I have found the last five years that The Legion and The FF have much more to say to me. Liberty and Justice for all lifeforms, not just mutants.
And I still can't find a Vet Chameleon darnit! LOL!
Just kidding about the heretics thing. I have many favorite different style artists.
The Anime as substitute for learning anatomy school is starting to get to me though.
I fully admit I would have been the first guy to chain Olivier Coipel to The Legion desk. Or at least bribe him with loads of money.
I hear Barry Kitson is coming onboard though, and he has plenty of experience from L.E.G.I.O.N.
4AD_Punk
04/09/2004, 03:08
Originally posted by Briel
I do draw attention to Hawkman #26 for a look at Byrne still in full swing.
I also enjoyed Hawkman #26, excessively. Gives me hope for the title; was afraid it would crumble with Johns leaving. Now, I have great optimism and expectations for the new writing team; would be interesting if Byrne stayed with the title.
Not kidding about Byrne being all time greatest though.
Rokk_Krinn
04/09/2004, 10:08
This may sound nigh-heretical, but I usually don't mind Byrne too much. His art isn't bad and while I may like some of his current writing his oft-maligned "Man of Steel" is something which I'm particularly happy was written. I enjoy the character of Superman, but he needed a revamping. Some of the things we got from "Man of Steel":
*Supes powered down so his stories were more acceptable (though that's slowly disappearing as his power levels climb),
*The incredible revision of Lex Luthor who was far more threatening and interesting this way (which has now been undone, sigh), One of my favourite shorts of all-time has to be "1000 Miles to Metropolis".
*Lois as a believable female instead of a ditzy trouble-maker. Suddenly, I could understand why Clark wasted so much time chasing her. :)
*The return of Ma and Pa Kent. One of the most subtle but important revisions, having the Kents still alive, has been amazing. Pre-Crisis you never realized (even with titles like "Superboy" running around) how much you were missing with them dead. Post-Crisis, the idea of losing Ma and Pa again is wrenching.
That being said, Byrne doesn't work for all books and, honestly I think in a fair number of cases he's let his ego go haywire (he also really jacked-up Legion continuity but we won't go there. :) ).
Now, slowly moving back into Legion territory, Briel is right when he says the LSH was losing momentum and readers before the whole "Legion Lost" mini. I find that really interesting too because for years - all during the Dark and Gritty Adult Legion days - everyone clamored how much they missed the innocence (and costumes and try-outs and real super-hero battles) of the "True Legion". However, once we got it back, well, readership got shakey. I tend to blame the "Blight" on that though - when everyone who'd come aboard for a bright vibrant Legion suddenly had to face this dark Legion (the ads even talked about the loss of innocence) and the horrible artwork, folks started bailing. Too many shades of v4 perhaps?
Oh, and the Legion artist I wish we'd see come back for a little bit (as he was just starting to "flex" during his short previous run) is Stu Immonen (sp?).
Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't like Byrne much. I liked Claremont only when he was working on X-Men in the Jim Lee years.
I absolutely hated that ludicrous 'Tenth Circle' crud they just put in JLA ... almost to the point that I'm considering dropping the comic entirely. I couldn't even finish reading the whole thing it was so bad.
I didn't pick up Hawkman #26 because I saw Byrne was associated with it.
Byrne may have done good things in the past -- and, I agree with Rokk_Krinn, I like what he'd done with Superman (or, at least, to the Superman cast of characters) -- but his time is over. He needs to move on.
Claremont has, and I think there are a number of X-fans who would agree, nearly completely lost his mind. I can't think of anything good that he's done recently. He may not be completely tapped out on good ideas, but he's getting close. He needs to take a break and re-think things.
But, hey, that's just my opinion. Like I said before, it may just be me.
For the past five years or so, Byrne has centered his work around revival and tribute to the Golden and Silver Ages of comics. If you are a big fan of those times his work is great. I realise it moves a bit slow for the newer readers, but different strokes are why we have several books to choose from.
I wish Generations (an Elseworlds title) could be ongoing, then us Byrne fans could be happy and the rest of you could ignore us. LOL!
As for Claremont, I have to suggested readings. Both from Xtreme X-Men.
Intifada about displacement and the cycle of hatred. It's a role reversal as we see a group of humans who have been attacked and harmed by mutants just trying to keep their homes. It also has shades of some things going on in the middle ast right now.
God Loves, Man Kills II where William Stryker has an epiphany. Unlike most tales of late where the hate is never ending, we get a tale of hope, where even the darkest of us may be able to change.
I do realise that Chris writes dialogue in a Shakespearean and mythic way. He does it to give the stories a timeless mythological feel, but I think it is this that gets on many people's nerves, rather thab the storie themselves. I know many prefer realaistic, and or quippy dialogue of a more modern nature.
I do't blame Byrne for the tuck hole that got driven through LSH history, as much as I blame Crisis which should never have been done in the first place.
Sorry about the bad typing up there. Shouldn't eat and post at the same time I guess.
Does anyone else feel that Superboy is just going to take more time away from Mon El? I like that Mon El is the oldest (chronologically) character on the team, and feel he offers a different perspective. We already get the rash decisions from Ultra Boy and Timber Wolf.
I like Superboy and used to buy his book, but I just don't see what is new that he brings to the table here.
It's like he was added to boost sales due to his popuarity over in TT.
Support Mon El. I think it would be interesting if it did get out that he is Valor. That would be a lot of important issues to deal with.
Actually, while I didn't pick up Intifada, I did read God Loves, Man Kills II.
I despised it. I thought it was a cheap way to try to capitalize on a previously good story, tied in with the X-Men 2 movie that hit movie theatres at about the same time.
I don't think it's Claremont's dialogue that annoys me, I think it is the way that he tries to force greatness upon his stories. He tries to make them mythic. He tries to make every story he writes "the story."
Greatness doesn't have to be defined. It just is.
Kingdom Come, for example, was written as a commentary on current trends in comics (the vigilante anti-Hero with lots of big guns) compared to the 'old guard' of heroes, like Superman. It never made an effort to set itself apart as the greatest comic story of all time. It just was.
Claremont just doesn't get that. Just write the story. Tell a good tale involving characters that people like. Make it original. Give it a theme that people can relate to. And, quit trying to be 'great' and just try to 'be'. The greatness will take care of itself.
I'll let the subject die with only one more comment.
Chris wrote that original story, and the movie was in part based on Chris's original stories. So really it is only coming full circle back to the scource.
Kingdom Come was a great tale. I especially loved it for keeping Captain Marvel as The World's Mightiest Mortal.
Even better however was a tale that combined elements of KC and Watchmen to more powerful effect. A storyline by Warren Ellis in Storm Watch called Change Or Die. Who decides what is best? Does might make right? Do the ends justify the means? Can there be a solution that serves all equally? All these questions came into play as a bunch of metas decide to save the world from itself, Weatherman kills to maintain the status quo, and Jenny Sparks stands in the middle defending the rights of all to choose.
To tie this back to The Legion loosely. One f my favorite tales of the DnA reign was in Legion Worlds. Karate Kid must face a foe who kills without remorse. His monk friend tells violence only begets violence. The Kid knows that to do nothing will ony result in more innocent deaths. By the end of the story, both sides are seen to be true, but the solution lies somewhere in the middle.
Karate Kid doesn't get near enough screen time these days.
Isn't this a Legion thread? : )
Nice to see some fans of the 30th Century on the
HeroClix site -- I traded, bought singles, did
whatever I had to do to get Cosmic Boy, Saturn
Girl and Lightning Lad from Cosmic Justice, and
now I have to do it all over again to get Brainiac 5,
Chameleon Boy and two uniques on top of that.
Ahhh, it's nice to have toys of my favorites, and a
game to play with them in.
Glad to see there's some support for the
Bierbaums / Giffen era, "Five Years Later". I
thought that storyline was honest and realistic --
perhaps not what everyone wanted from the
four-color teen club of their memories, but they
were prepared to provide both sets of Legions...
ah well.
Anyone here get sick when they read Legion Lost?
I hadn't been reading since the Zero Hour
reboot, and thought this might be a good place
to get back in. Instead, I thought it had trendy,
disappointing art, a stumbly storyline and the
unnecessary degradation and killing of some of
the heroes of my youth. Though, it seems like
that creative team was selling books, since that
edition of the team stayed in place for a while (?).
--and what's up with Brainy's outfit? : )
wyld
Yes this a Legion thread. I take the blame for the tangent.
I hadn't read Legion since Five Years Later, so Legion Lost did not seem like such a jump. Besides. By the end, the point was even stuck in the back end of beyond, our heroes stuck to their values. I suppose it was better for me since I read it all in one sitting. I didn't have to wait for the payoff.
I prefer Brainy's purple jumpsuit too. It seemed more suited to his personality. What I have wanted to know is are the circles on his face coluan tattoos, or are they metallic computer interface plates?
I talked to a few guys who opened complete cases of Unleashed. The question remains. Why is Vet Chameleon so hard to find? LOL!
I don't ike the return of Live Wire storyline. I woudn't have killed him in the first place, but it seems to cheapen Legion Lost. Although with the reboot I can see it as a retake on the initial loss and return of Garth.
Still, I was hoping to see Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl get together eventually. I like Quantum Kid, but her relationship with Rokk seemed to pop up out of the blue.
Last but not least. Tinya should be called Phantom Lass, not Apparition. Phantom Lass just sounds better.
I lied. Is there a Sun Boy yet? Or did I just miss him under a new name?
Rokk_Krinn
04/10/2004, 11:38
Originally posted by Briel
I prefer Brainy's purple jumpsuit too. It seemed more suited to his personality. What I have wanted to know is are the circles on his face coluan tattoos, or are they metallic computer interface plates?
I lied. Is there a Sun Boy yet? Or did I just miss him under a new name?
Those spots on Brainy's head are the interface/circuitry for his force-field projectro (I miss the belt. :( ). He had an upgrade to Brainiac 5.1 (very good story actually - brought back all the different Legion eras for a few issues as well as my favourite villain the Time Trapper) and not only got smarter (and more emotional), but interfaced the belt into his body (and it's been hinted it gives him some computer interface skills, yes).
Dirk Morgna has appeared, but not with the Legion. His powers have been more of a curse than a blessing for him post-ZH. We've also seen Dr. Regulus - he's the reason Gim's dead. Dirk has been around a couple times, but so far hasn't made it into the LSH.
Just a few thoughts while reading the Legion Companion which I got the other day.
For most of my life I just read comics without paying much attention to (or at least without much ability to remember, because I know I looked once in a while) who the various creative teams were on various books. A few stuck in my head, like Mark Waid and Keith Giffen, but mostly I just noticed, "hey that was really good" or "what the hell happened to the art on Legion all of a sudden..." About, hmmm, a decade ago I fell in with some artists and writers who were breaking into or newly entered into the comics field and man, they could tell you exactly who was penciling, inking, etc, a book by looking at one panel. I also went to my first cons with those guys and I am really glad I did, because they pointed out all sorts of people who's work I new and loved but who I wouldn't have recognized or known what they did if I hadnt been told. I did my research before my next Con I tell you! Anyway, Legion Companion so far has seemed to be pointing out some things I felt the whole time, that the people who's work I liked the most are the people who loved the book the most. Not to say that the workaday guys neccesarily werent any good, but I think with Legion that spirit of fun and optimism, or at least hope for some runs, is really what attracts me to the book.
Oh yeah, and Dave Cockrum is officially my hero now...
Lightshear
04/10/2004, 19:01
I've been out a while, so I'm just gonna go down the line:
The Moys are great guys and fine artists. They really deserve to be working more steadily.
Briel: You know, I agree with everything you have said.
Well...except Byrne. Nobody will ba able to convince me that that guy is anything but a loud-mouthed A-hole clinging to visions of faded past glory and swiftly fading name-recognition.
Change IS a good thing, and if a book can't stomach a creator shift, then mayhap the book should be careful it doesn't define itself too narrowly. In fact, I went and looked back at the issue-in-question, and you know - it ain't that bad. It was probably just a shock to the system after the recent string of guys. I won't totally rescind my comments, because I DO think that Giffen would be better showcased on a book more urban/gritty/golden-age-pulpy than Legion, but I will say he's still got his chops.
And Legion WAS loosing steam pre-'Lost. I had stopped buying it, honestly, because my money got tight and I just couldn't keep up with a book that was getting a bit stagnant. LL fixed that, for me, and I've been excited about what's happened since. Sometimes change isn't just nescessary, it's brilliant.
The problem with Anime (Manga, in the printed form) is that too much of the junk is getting into the US and too many young punks are thinking that they can just mimic carppy Manga and not have to learn to draw. The bigger problem is that these hacks are getting work. *sigh*
Rokk: I loved Man of Steel, but not so much for Byrne's art as for how it revitalized and modernized Superman in such a wonderful way, while not stcking him too firmly in one era (i.e.-the 80's) and leaving him timeless. Businessman Lex was the ultimate villain, and I am still angry over his fall to mere crazy-butt-scientist status.
JacinB: I completely hear you! I have dropped JLA, and will only pick it up from here on out if there's a team I trust handling it. For Claremont, I enjoyed the early chunk of X-Treme, but it junked out pretty quick around the God Loves Man Kills 2 arc. :disappoin
And some quick hits -
*Legion does NOT need Superboy. Having him there degrades Mon'El, and takes away screentime from the already deprived likes of Karate Kid, Spark, Ultra Boy, and a handfull of others.
*I like Brainy's look, now. It feels like he's evolved over the course of post-ZH continuity. He's one of the characters that feels like he's really grown, and it's a visual thing, too.
*I agree that Live Wire returning is a shot against LL's powerful ending. But, beyond that, why can't he change the shape of his face to resemble himself? If Alchemist was essentially scattered atoms, and Garth's living consciousness pulled all those together, why wouldn't he look more like himself? I sort of get why they did what they did, but it doesn't always make sense. Meh.
*For the time being, I prefer Rokk and Kid Q. It was a bit sudden, but they're kids. That's how it happens sometimes. It's an interesting match, as they were both leaders and all. And Imra is probably still too sore from the Garth thing to switch-hit so soon.
*No, Apparition is the better name. So there.:p
Lightshear
04/10/2004, 19:02
Holy nuts! Sorry about the size of font, up there, I meant it to be smaller, not larger. Shesh, I'm a lunatic...Sorry, guys.:o
Don't sugar coat it man! Tell us how you really feel! LOL!
Most Anime leaves me cold.
My favs so far are:
Speed Racer
Starblazers
Akira
Neon Gensis Evangelion
and my most favorite:
Noir
Which is like La Femme Nikita meets Elektra meets Miami Vice. And that suits me just fine.
My favorite Manga artist is the guy who just did Wolverine: Snikt!. He was incredible. So much so I wish he was doing the regular book. The style reminded me of European comics moreso than Anime. I also like Middleston on NYX.
Looks like we both agree though. There is Anime/Manga stylization, and then there is wannabe carp.
My most revered art teacher gave us some sage advice. He said you can't succesfully exaggerate or transform your work succesfully until you have a firm grasp of the basics of anatomy, perspective, and design.
Otherwise you are just faking it, and everyone can tell. The work will suffer with no firm basic framework.
Some of us also call this The Liefeld Effect. LOL!
Lightshear
04/12/2004, 20:43
My most revered art teacher gave us some sage advice. He said you can't succesfully exaggerate or transform your work succesfully until you have a firm grasp of the basics of anatomy, perspective, and design.
Sweet mother, yes. I go to an art school, and you have no idea how much of this I witness. Ugh. And nowadays, "fine arts" are based upon the prostpect that you don't need basic artistic skills, so long as you have a good BS "meaning" for the piece. Blaargh.
Oh, and Legion kicks arse!:grin:
When did Emerald Empress become a trashy wannabe biker B instead of the elegant mint green tressed classic villainess? The original just seemed all the more evil while being supposedly civil about her killing. The new version just comes across like a rabid dog. I miss the one sided conversations with the Eye as well.
One more mystery partially solved by the Legion Companion. Mark Waid is discussing all of the things Legion was suddenly banned from using in its continuity included any Superman references, Superboy references, Pocket Universe reference, the name Mon-El (El belonged to Superman, hence Valor) an edict to remove any mention of events involving Superboy (ie, 90 percent of legion history), Rond Vidar as a Green Lantern, or any appearance of people from Thanegar. WOOOOO! Comic politics
Originally posted by malreux
One more mystery partially solved by the Legion Companion.
I must've missed both what the mystery was and how it was partially solved by any of the info you posted ... can you fill me in?
Heh, sure. Was just overly excited by having answers to some of my longest running questions (Valor?) earlier there was some discussion over what happened to the Green Lantern Corp. c. the 30th century. There had been early stories that showed them being evicted from UP space, some later ones where Universo, and then his son Rond Vidar had been Green Lanterns, and then they pretty well disappeared as far as actual Legion references go(although there were references to them in some of the main line books, I think Green Lantern had some 30th century exploits in his book in the not too distant past.) The Waid interview seems to reveal this was another of the Editorial fiats that made lots of major plotlines unavailable to Legion writers (such as needing to remake Mon-El into Valor and fill all the roles Superboy would have filled in Legion History)
There is nothing funnier than when a triple Perplexed, TK'd, Hyperspeeding E Black Adam with a heavy object can't complete the run on a R Brainiac 5.
Because Brainiac was Wildcarding the Kingdom Come ability off of LE Shazam!
There is justice in a Clix Universe. LOL!
4AD_Punk
04/20/2004, 04:53
Okay, I finished reading Foundations--my first Legion story.
However, the following characters were not in the story: Chameleon, Gates, Sensor, and Karate Kid. I was looking forward to reading about these characters; they seemed interesting and cool from their bios on the DC site.
Where are these dudes?
I would also like to hear somebody's opinion: in Foundations there is back-story to when Element Lad becomes a villain and is responsible for the death of Live Wire. At the time, was this story received well by Legion fans? I get the impression that Element Lad was a popular character that people liked. To make a correlation, I would be upset if any of my favorite JSA characters were written into a story where they basically flip-out and betray the team, kill another JSA member, act out-of-character, and then die a horrible death that overshadows their time when they were a hero.
The story in question was the Legion Lost maxi series.
While there are aproximately 25 or so Legionaires, each story tries to choose 6 to 8 to focus on in a particular storyline. It's just a writing logistics thing.
Foundations was done as a tribute to the pre-Crisis story The Great Darkness Saga. As such, there was a lot of ground to cover.
For more on Karate Kid, try to pick up Legion Worlds #5. An excellent tale is also another pre-Crisis one. Issues 1 to 6 of LSH vol 2 where The Kid makes his last stand.
Chameleon played a large part in Legion Lost.
I am inclined to say Lost was well recieved, because when I went to get back issues they were next to impossible to find. With no readers page it's hard to tell though.
It must have been good enough, because LSH was on the verge of cancellation before that. The real question is whether older readers returned, or new readers were brought in.
I personally feel Legion Lost was one of the five greatest LSH stories ever! Why it is not in TP is a sore subject with no apparent answer.
Sensor had a huge roll in the immediately preceding, and much better story arc, Dream Crime.
Which also features everyone's favorite Heroclixer, Saturn Girl!
4AD_Punk
04/20/2004, 05:58
Originally posted by Briel
While there are aproximately 25 or so Legionaires, each story tries to choose 6 to 8 to focus on in a particular storyline. It's just a writing logistics thing.
Are Chameleon, Gates, Sensor and Karate Kid still active Legionnaires? If so, were they just not selected to be written about--or shown--in Foundations?
They are all active Legonaires.
If I recall, Gates has gone with Mon El and former Earth President RJ Brand to the Lost galaxy to set up relations there.
I imagine the new creative team will follow up on their activities.
It can take a while, but they try to give everyone equal time over the course of a year. With such a huge cast it is hard.
I'm sorry your first story had so much time wasted on Superboy, but hang in there. You won't regret it.
One of my personal favorites is Dreamer, but she is rarely used as her powers tend to make it hard to write stories. LOL! Darn that precognition!
KK is in Foundations. He trains with Superboy in one issue, and is in a lot of background panels fighting parademons. He just returned in Dream Crime.
Hack-n-slash
04/20/2004, 08:56
It must have been good enough, because LSH was on the verge of cancellation before that. The real question is whether older readers returned, or new readers were brought in.
Data point:
I was a reader who returned with Legion: Lost.
I left during the whole "Clones" thing.
That was when I left too. Just as it seemed they were looking to deep six the Five Years After storyline.
It made me feel like what was the point of all of Keith's work up to that point?
I originally left when "Tales" ended, because we didn't have a Direct Market shop here. When we finally did get one, I was already a year behind form the "Tales" reprints plus the close to a year that I missed since it ended. Added to that, my budget in High School wasn't huge so I ended up just skimming the series and picking up issues here and there. It seems that every one of my favourites were treated poorly in the TMK era (Dawnstar mutilated, Blok killed, Wildfire a big question mark, etc.). Midway through the TMK run, I stopped even casually following and resigned myself to the fact that the Levitz-Legion was long gone and these "Replacements" just weren't my Legion.
Then Zero Hour came and I read they were giving everything a clean slate re-start. I picked them up out of curiosity, and found I enjoyed them more than I thought I would. I've enjoyed most of the re-boot, but admit that Waid and Peyer were consistantly good and Stern and DnA both had good stories, but were ultimately lacking in their "feel" for the Legion.
I'm looking forward to Simone's run, followed by the mystery team (rumoured to be Waid again).
Heh, I think the thing that stung about Element Lad being the "villain" of the story wasnt just because it was a favorite character, but because it was a particularly peaceful and innocent character, and along the way he killed another cheerful and very innocent character and had become very detatched an crazy about killing. It wouldnt be like Hawkman from the JSA flipping out and killing someone, because you always knew he had the capacity in him if pushed, it would be more like if Impulse flipped out and buzz-sawed the rest of young justice, or, hmmm was going to use another example, but having trouble thinking of many DC characters as pacifistic and spiritual as Jan. Especially since courtesy of pre-reboot we saw that he held pretty true to his beliefs as an adult. Good story though, just...sad. Talk about a character never having any luck. Between him and Lightning Lad, I think you would have any trouble finding comics characters with luck like theirs...
4AD_Punk
04/21/2004, 02:15
Originally posted by rouge2
I'm looking forward to Simone's run, followed by the mystery team (rumoured to be Waid again).
Huh?
As in Gail? If so, that is awesome! I like Gail Simone; when does this happen?
4AD_Punk logs-out of HCR and hurries to the DC Comics site to check their monthly release schedule.
proditor
04/21/2004, 02:25
Hey folks, I have a question. I loved the reboot adult Legion from like a decade ago? I also recently-ish picked up the only other TPB (I already had the Great darkness saga) that's apparently made, "The beginning of Tomorrow".
I liked what they did with the story but I'm now left with a question. "The Legion" has issue 32 coming out soon. What the heck is The Legion? How lost would I be if I tried to get back into the LSH? I miss my Ultra-boy and Karate Kid fix, but I'm worried that I'm going to be staggeringly confused.
Advice please?
4AD_Punk
04/21/2004, 02:34
Originally posted by proditor
Hey folks, I have a question. I loved the reboot adult Legion from like a decade ago? I also recently-ish picked up the only other TPB (I already had the Great darkness saga) that's apparently made, "The beginning of Tomorrow".
I liked what they did with the story but I'm now left with a question. "The Legion" has issue 32 coming out soon. What the heck is The Legion? How lost would I be if I tried to get back into the LSH? I miss my Ultra-boy and Karate Kid fix, but I'm worried that I'm going to be staggeringly confused.
Advice please?
I'm a LSH newbie. However, I just finished reading the latest Legion storyline called Foundations, issues #25 - #30. I was not lost at all; just unfamiliar with the characters, their personalities and abilities. Ultra-Boy is still in the Legion; he was in Foundations. I didn't notice Karate Kid, but Briel said in an earlier post that he is in the background of one panel in Foundations training Superboy.
As for your first question, "The Legion" is the LSH; the title or name has been shortened.
proditor
04/21/2004, 02:36
So I could pick up a few back issues and be basically okay. That's good news. :) I'll see if my comic guy can grab me 25 to present then.
Thanks for the help!
Most of the ongoing storylines were wrapped up recently.
Foundations was meant to be a jump-on point.
The guy Superboy almost smashes in the trainng room when he gets chewed out by Cosmic Boy is Val Armorr. None other than The Karate Kid himself.
For true fans. You may be interested to know that Karate Kid had a brief series way back in the 70's. It shouldn't be too expensive. Just time-consuming to track down.
I used to have an awesome issue where he fought Major Disaster. For some odd reason Val was either visiting or stuck in the 20th century.
Rokk_Krinn
04/21/2004, 09:58
Originally posted by Briel
The guy Superboy almost smashes in the trainng room when he gets chewed out by Cosmic Boy is Val Armorr. None other than The Karate Kid himself.
I used to have an awesome issue where he fought Major Disaster. For some odd reason Val was either visiting or stuck in the 20th century.
The reason poor 4AD keeps missing the "training lecture" is because it took place in "The Legion: Secret Files 2003" and not the standard Legion title. :) However, Val is a "background" character (as are pretty much all the LSH'ers) during the battle on Apokolipse - you can see him pop a few baddies. Same with Sensor (Jeckie) whom I remember 4AD also asking about - she's the huge half-snake person that was tail-whipping parademons.
Val back in the ol' KK series (fun stuff but definitely dated) was back in time as a type of exile. He had to prove himself as worthy to marry Princess Projectra and so her father (partially due to manipulations of his advisor) told Val to go off to the 20th C. for awhile.
Keep hearing folks talking about Gail Simone. While I picked up her "Birds of Prey" TPB, I'm not familiar with what else she's done. Honestly, I'm still mixed about the TPB I read, so I've got a feeling I'm missing the reason everyone's thrilled about her coming on board.
Originally posted by 4AD_Punk
I would also like to hear somebody's opinion: in Foundations there is back-story to when Element Lad becomes a villain and is responsible for the death of Live Wire. At the time, was this story received well by Legion fans? I get the impression that Element Lad was a popular character that people liked. To make a correlation, I would be upset if any of my favorite JSA characters were written into a story where they basically flip-out and betray the team, kill another JSA member, act out-of-character, and then die a horrible death that overshadows their time when they were a hero.
I was dissapointed at the fate of Element Lad, but it was unfortunately just the last indignity one of my former favourites had undergone. I loved E-Lad Pre-crisis, Pre-ZH. I thought he made an excellent leader during the Levitz era and was a level-headed thinker with a spiritual side. When he was introduced Post-boot, he looked to be on the right track, with slightly more emphasis on his spiritual side, which was cool.
Then he went New Age.<