View Full Version : JLA VS AVENGERS 4 What did you think?
mattsolo
04/01/2004, 09:47
Wow! I picked JLA/Avengers 4 last night and took like an hour to read. There was so much going on it was hard to keep up. AND I had to go back and reread 2 and 3 to remember exactly what was going on since it's been like 2 months sine 3 came out.
All in all I was very happy with how things turned out. The base made from the Galactus remains was inspired! I was very excited to see Supes on the cover battered holding Thors hammer and Caps shield. It said with no words "The bad guys are in BIG trouble now!" I thought the interaction and cooperation between the 2 team was accurate given the circumstances the dynamic of members phaseing in and out kept readers on their toes. The most fun part for me was trying to identify everyone. The best part was when Aquaman mindcontroled all the Evil Merpeople and it gave Namor a headache. I laughed at that for 10 min. What did you think?
Gentlegamer
04/01/2004, 09:52
I think we oughta take this over to another realm or the comics forums! :p
I liked it too. It was cool how Superman tapped Captain America to act as the overall leader while Superman fought in the battle. The Aquaman telepathy that gave Sub-Mariner a headache was great, as well. It looks like the question has been answered on whether Superman could wield Mjolnir: yes, but only as long as Odin permits it!
mattsolo
04/01/2004, 10:07
Sounds good to me. The "Look out Capt Marvel" Gag had me rollin:laugh:
So if Prometheus had batman's fighting ability and cap beat his ###, does that sorta mean cap can beat bats? i mean not REALLY, because power/skillw /out experience ain't the same.....but interesting and will be debated for a time
BudPalmer
04/01/2004, 10:23
Batman admitted to himself that he couldn't beat Captain America.
lukebuchanan
04/01/2004, 10:28
Originally posted by BudPalmer
Batman admitted to himself that he couldn't beat Captain America.
Here, here! Awesome of Cap to dismantle everyone! Liked the balance of the two teams and Hawkeye nailing the last shot was perfect. Mattsolo's right though, too much #### going on!
Luke B. Impressed. Now should I go grab ish #1, because I have the other 3.
mattsolo
04/01/2004, 10:31
Got Prometheus with out the sheild even!
Originally posted by BudPalmer
Batman admitted to himself that he couldn't beat Captain America.
Actually, he didn't. Conceivable means "possible". Not "probable".
I'm happy. Read it twice - once for the story, and once again to go through and look at EVERYTHING George Perez put in there. I've been waiting on this book for 15 years, and even with a 3 month delay in the middle of it all, I wasn't disappointed.
Particular likes - Superman's reaction to holding Mjolnir. There's a LOT of options on that hammer.
Batroc ze Lepair vs. Batman... oh, that's funny. Particularly the sentence Batman didn't finish after whupping him.
The bottomless, silent detail in those pictures - "Look out Captain Marvel!" as Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel trade off their chief foes, figuring out the themes of each panel, all that good stuff.
Hal and Barry. Knowing what's coming and doing the job anyway. That's heroism.
Captain America vs. Prometheus. "It teaches you FOCUS!" I'm torn between this encounter and Captain America vs. Bane for which is the better Captain America trouncing of a Batman villain. Bane's defeat had humor, but Prometheus' defeat was such a dig at all the noise Prometheus uses to beat people. It's tough.
I like this book This whole series was superior. They did this one right.
Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson
conceivable
\Con*ceiv"a*ble\, a. [Cf. F. concevable.] Capable of being conceived, imagined, or understood. ``Any conceivable weight.''
mattsolo
04/01/2004, 10:54
He's not arguing he is pointing out that lukebucanonn and BudPalmer have make in accuate statements.
lukebuchanan
04/01/2004, 11:33
Just because Batman says it, that don't make it true. Look, I know that Batman never said he could beat him, and it was really chicken of Busiek to not have a winner, but let's look at the facts:
Batman is the "zenieth of human fortitude and ambition" from KC. He's the most dangerous NORMAL person on earth, with all the training but.............
Cap is not a normal human. He has the SS Serum and that puts him in a class above Batman. I don't see how, with the same knowledge and expertise in fighting that you can have Cap not win a hand to hand fight.
It's like the Flash vs. Superman race. If Supes wins it totally undermines the point of the Flash. Same with Cap, he's the best fighter out there. Batman is close but ain't got the SSS.
Just one man's take. GO CAP!!!
LUke B.
BudPalmer
04/01/2004, 11:34
Originally posted by thugit
Actually, he didn't. Conceivable means "possible". Not "probable".
Spoken like a true Batman fanboy! No wonder everyone hates you! JUST KIDDING!
Actually, Mattsolo can attest to the fact that I beleive Cap would beat Batman in a straight up fight like that one.
I was just pointing out that he didn't say what you thought (or implied) he did.
Of course, if they both studied each other for weeks with the intention of taking the other out, Batman cleans house. Straight up fight, no shield, no belt, Cap wins.
TheMightyThor
04/01/2004, 11:42
My favorite panel is where Bats is kicking the #### out of taskmaster.
Thor has found the sum of Supes measures and Supes will be found wanting. Thor has never stayed down after be knocked down.
NickFury15
04/01/2004, 23:48
My favorite panel? Pretty much any one with Scarlet Witch in it.
Other than that, I liked the interaction between Hal and Barry. It really showed them off for what they really are: Heroes. Knowing they are going to die, they still move into the battle, fueled by the knowledge that what they are doing will save the world. It really impressed me that they could remain so calm on what they know is the last day they'll ever live.
I'm disappointed. It seemed like the issue was one big "Thor lost, but Marvel's just as good" yawner.
Cap's in charge, Thor talks smack about Superman after Superman has knocked him out, Supes is amazed at Mjolnir, then can't lift it, Iron Man is the better builder compared to Batman, Cap stomps Prometheus....
Not that I'm Marvel bashing, it was just forced.
For the record: I DO think that Captain America would beat Batman most of the time in a straight up fight, I just think this issue was a little off, and I had really liked it up to this point. Very cool to see Hal holding the universes apart....
supermangl1
04/02/2004, 00:01
Yeah the scene with Hal/Spectre pushing the earths was so cool! But I realized I don't know as many old school characters as I thought. I was staring at the pages trying to figure out who they were. Anyone see it was Amazo and Despro taking out Thor? I liked Cap leading the team with Manhunter using his telepathy, but all of the "Wow you marvel guys are amazing." "Yes we are, but you DC guys are soooo powerful." "Thank you so much." was kinda annoying. But it was awesome all the same.
EVIL CAP
04/02/2004, 00:53
I think it worked out great but some people are looking at it a bit wrong.It wasent "You Marvel guys are great/You DC guys are so powerful" it was JLA/Avengers as one team all working together and making good use of all their exceptional abilties and everyone doing what they did best
Best parts
Martian Manhunter and CapA handling leadership and tactics
Superman and Thor in the same panel virtually everytime leading the attack
Flash casually announching he was just the distraction
Jay Garrick punching out the Red Skull[Kinda background but im a JSA fan]
Vision helping out Sups was very creative
skyounkin
04/06/2004, 02:01
Just read it-
FINALLY!!!
Great. Great freaking book!! This to me is probably one of the pinnacles of comicdom! Just looking at the art you can see why it took Mr. Perez 3 months to draw it, every panel someone new was in there or someone had undergone a costume change! The "Captain Marvel watch out!" was the best bit-I am glad they stuck that in there somehow. Captain America leading the group was perfect, no one else could have pulled it off- Superman busting skulls with the sheild was great!! And even though Superman beat Thor in issue 2, this issue answered yet another fanboy question-Could Superman lift Mjolnir?....And no he couldn't unlees under extreme needed circumstances. And that is fine by me.
I can wait to get my hands on the Dynamic Forces signed ed Hardcover when it finally comes out. Kudos to both Marvel and DC for putting out a phenominal book! This is what makes me love comics! Mr. Perez, Mr. Busiek and Mr. Smith great job as well as the rest of the talent pool behind this master piece, and I hope this type of crossover now sets the standard and that both Marvel and DC every few years get together and put out something to this caliber.
It just doesn't get any better than this.
deathsythe
04/06/2004, 02:10
I thought it was awsome. My favorite scenes were The Specter spliting the planets apart and supermans reaction after trying to lift Mjolnir but couldn't.
Nickel97
04/06/2004, 02:37
I liked it. It was very dense art-wise, but very fulfilling. The story was decent. I liked the Captain Marvels quite a bit.
I did sort of feel like there was too much "Back-patting" going on between the universes though.
The story was good, not great but good (a little to similar to Crisis for me).
But the art...wow! It was worth the (long) wait to see what Perez created. The loving detail in every panel was amazing. Especially the costume changes - loved it when Cap had the US Agent costume on, also the changes to GL and Atom.
Beautiful book, fun read
The Red Raider
04/07/2004, 00:41
I LOVED this... it really irked me that this was the last issue!!
Can Cap beat Batman? I'm a die-hard Batfan.... but if Cap actually got his hands on bats, probably... but he'd have to get him in grip first.
My only gripe with this whole story, overall? Too much hawkeye... he almost seemed the star. And I do believe Ollie is the better archer :)
I loved all of the "generics" the moloids hydra aim kobra and all were amazing!!!! BTW yes ollie is the better archer :grin:
BTW i hope that a JLA Avengers cross-over becomes a annual (with any "hot artist" at the time!!!!)
DreadDormammu
04/07/2004, 00:51
Very very disappointing. Way too much time spent "giving props" to both Marvel and DC equally and not enough time spent on an actual story.
I will be getting the special edition though because I want to read all about Busiek's planning and the breakdowns of all the panels.
DreadDormammu
04/07/2004, 00:54
Originally posted by The Red Raider
And I do believe Ollie is the better archerIn a pinch I'd take Clint for pure archery. But Ollie has much better overall skills. Put them in a fight against each other and Ollie would win 9 times out of 10. Make them shoot at targets and Clint would win 7 times out of 10.
IMO.
Ignatz_Mouse
04/07/2004, 00:59
Originally posted by Gator
The story was good, not great but good (a little to similar to Crisis for me).
Well, I LIKED that it was similar to Crisis, but I agree that it sure was heavy-handedly so. So much that I called it "Crisis on Infinite Earths co-starring the Avengers!"
There are worse stories to copy. Like Secret Wars!
The Red Raider
04/07/2004, 10:56
What surprised me was that the race to get the items did NOT end in a drw... JLA won, and Krona wnet off the handle...
this astounded me as I knew in my heart they would tie and have to unite.
I could be wrong... but it seemed like I never saw Booster Gold, or Guy Gardner.... anybody recall them?
Great moments from the WHOLE story: Superman KO'ing Thor, Flash announcing that he's the "distraction", seeing Galactus as a shell, seeing Galactus begin to reform, Batman sneaking off from the group right before Cap asks him to do so, Hal pulling the universes apart.
Those were my faves... There were more, I just can't remember them right now!
The Red Raider
04/07/2004, 11:05
there is one giant giant factor giving Bats an upper hand over Cap, I realized...
Batman cheats.
I still say though, if Cap got his Hands on bats, it's over... but from a distance, the sheild does not give him the upper hand
Cap vs. Batman a debate that shall never be finished.
It all comes down to Cap is noble, Batman just won't kill you. Hard to say. Super Soldier serum does not make you "super" just makes you the peak of normal humanity. So Batman and Cap are at the same level. here's the thing. Did Cap spend his entire childhood and every moment from the age of 8 training and trying to quell the inner demons of the loss of his parents and his innocence? No. He was just some guy that went through basic and picks up things fast.
As strength goes they are equal,
As stamina goes they are equal,
As general fighting skill they are equal...
But what it comes down to is the style. And with his gadgets and the numerous things Batman has had to deal with I doubt that Cap could overcome that.
Besides that fact this comic was great.
No one team beat the other in any overwelming sense. There are points where each and ever villian has their due. Way too much going on. Many re-reads to focus on all the heros that are there. Every panel and every page has a theme. She-hulk teams with Wonderwoman, Steel changes to steel, Batman transforms between his own versions... it all fits. They say Superman is worthy to hold Mjolnir but also say that Odin reserves judgement.
So this comic comes off as Switzerland on the whole Marvel vs DC debate that will rock the ages.
Originally posted by Supes
As strength goes they are equal,
As stamina goes they are equal,
As general fighting skill they are equal...
Not to knock you or anything, but that's incorrect. Cap is above and beyond Batman in strength and stamina in much the same way Deathstroke is. I'd give Batman the nod in skill level, and I imagine that while Batman might not beat Cap, he could certainly keep Cap from beating him.
Cap is much stronger, and has much better stamina....
SumYungGai
04/07/2004, 11:29
One of my favorite bits (aside from the "Lookout Captain Marvel" gag) was seeing L-Ron in Despero's hulking body defeat the skinny golden age Despero. It was little things like that which made the series so good.
Hack-n-slash
04/07/2004, 12:52
Not to knock you or anything, but that's incorrect. Cap is above and beyond Batman in strength and stamina in much the same way Deathstroke is. I'd give Batman the nod in skill level, and I imagine that while Batman might not beat Cap, he could certainly keep Cap from beating him.
Cap is much stronger, and has much better stamina....
The first OHotMU indicates that Captain America is at the "perfect human" level of strength and stamina {explicitly stating non-superhuman level}.
Unless something's changed {which it very well could have}, I don't see that there'd be a _significant_ difference between the two.
Though *Ultimate* Cap is a horse of a different color...
I have been going back thru the book looking at each panel to see who I can identify. One thing I'm not clear on is who "killed" Hawkeye and Flash (and was subsequently blown away by Green Lantern - who was kind of translucent - bonus points if you can explain that one to me too)
The Red Raider
04/09/2004, 16:29
all I could see on him was bandaged hands... apparently some energy being.
I saw Black Lightning more than once... and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he REJECT League membership... as well as Metamorpho?
Metamorpho was in the league, right up until the "Big 7" came back.... Not sure on Black Lightning.
Green L@ntern
11/30/2004, 20:13
Originally posted by thugit
Metamorpho was in the league, right up until the "Big 7" came back.... Not sure on Black Lightning.
Could the Outsiders be considered a sub-team of the Justice league?
Green L@ntern
11/30/2004, 20:17
The story followed the guidelines of crisis on infinite earths because:
-of the statement that the earths are not compatable and cannot be fused because they have different densities, sizes, etc
-weird things happen when they're fusing
Originally posted by Green L@ntern
Could the Outsiders be considered a sub-team of the Justice league?
I'm not sure.
As far as I know, Nightwing is the only member of the Outsiders and the JLA. (Although he's only a reserve member of the JLA.)
1st issue: DC edge, barely
2nd issue: tie
3rd issue: Marvel edge
4th issue: Major Marvel edge
I have said it before: Marvel fans complaint against DC is that the characters are all way too powerful (Also Known as "Marvel Fan Talking Out of His ###" Syndrome) and then, when they fight, they immediately chant "(Marvel character" would win because he is more powerful than (DC character)"
When the Avengers were pigpiling Superman after who knocked Thor out, where the hell were the JLA? Suddenly all the Avengers are not fighting someone...was it JLA coffee break?
cyberglum
12/01/2004, 09:22
Been a while now since I read it, but my favourite line, or scene, is when The Thing turned up to drop-off that doo-hicky to Cap and Bats. As ever, this dimension-hopping universe threatening situation is just a walk in the park for the FF, always happy to help out and as Cap says about Ben;
"Hes one of the best people I know and he gets the job done."
Dunno why, just liked that, summed Ben up...
cyberglum
You guys are looking at this the wrong way. Bat's isn't just the best fighter in the DCU he's also the best detective. I'll give fighting edge to CAP because that's only what he's been trained to do fight and lead. If we were arguing about who would solve a murder first I would give that to BAt's (unless it's Sue's muder). I would also say ollie would be clint in an archery contest but would lose to him a hand to hand fighting, why do I say this, becuase everyone in the marvel U has been trained by Cap in hand to hand fighting.
Green L@ntern
12/21/2004, 18:25
What Batman was saying in JLA/Avengers #2 is that it's a 51% chance that Captain America would win and a 49% chance that Batman would win. There case closed.
I'd agree that Ollie would win in archery...he just has more of a zen thing going. Clint would probably win hand to hand...he just seems younger, bigger, more vigorous, and maybe just a bit more of a street scrapper.
I'd give the fighting edge to Cap for a number of reasons. Bats is close to peak human, but Cap is just that little edge more. Bigger, slightly armored (chain mail uniform, remember), his endurance is almost endless. He could keep up a regular scrap for hours. Just that difference between Bats top ten standing and cap's number one spot.
Bats gadgets? Well....Caps been dodging gadgets, lassos, bolas, boomerangs and the rest for decades. They'd give Batman no real edge that his normal fighting wouldn't, just as I wouldn't expect cap's shield to flummox the bat.
Caps a boyscout, sure, but he's no idiot. He's a survivor who knows how to detect traps and ambushes.
That said, one could never be surprised if it went batmans way. I just think Cap has a solid edge in any solid combat situation.
Actually, when Batman admitted Cap had the edge, my take on it is that after their feinting around, probably both of them knew who would take it.
If bats said 'I can take you no matter what', he and cap would both know he was lying.
Would batman have admitted somebody else would win if there was only a 1% margin, go either way kind of victory? Nah...he knew it was only a matter of time before he (probably) lost, so he used his brain to circumvent the fight.
Which seems like something BM would do...
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