New Game Mechanic - Rule of 3

[Draddog]

<P ALIGN="CENTER"><FONT SIZE="3" CLASS="HEADER"><B>Marvel HeroClix: <I>Universe</I><BR>New Game Mechanic - Rule of 3</FONT><BR></B><I>by Aaron Schantz</I><P><B>Marvel HeroClix:</B> <I>Universe</I> updates the <B>HeroClix</B> rule book bringing it up to date with the current FAQ as well as introducing a new core rule – the rule of 3.<P>The "rule of 3" says that you can modify any single combat value only by a total of 3. This affects every type of modifier, including those brought about by Perplex, Combat Expert, and team abilities. <P>Not such a big deal though, right? You might look at the major modifying power in the game – Perplex – and wonder how often this rule would really come into effect. The answer: more than you might think.<P>For starters, the rule of 3 keeps Perplex from being abused. Some teams take advantage of ultra cheap Perplex characters to wreak havoc by giving already powerful characters huge stat changes. This will put a lid on that – and Perplex abuse in general – to an extent. <P>The most significant change most of us will see, however, actually concerns the ever-popular Ranged and Close Combat Expert powers. The rule of 3 allows you to increase damage values in combination with these powers! But, per the same rule, you can increase the damage value only by 1 because Ranged Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert already add +2 – one more from Perplex and you’ve reached the limit of 3.<P>For Close Combat Expert, this is a minimal help, especially since you still cannot use CCE with Super Strength because CCE is still a power action. But Ranged Combat Expert gets a great boost from this change because it now allows you to also use the Enhancement power to increase damage. And even though you’ve always been able to use team abilities that increase damage with RCE, it’s now limited to an increase of just 1. <P>Similarly, team abilities that add to attack values have been reworded to say that you modify a character’s attack value by +1 – making it count toward the rule of 3 as well. <P>This is generally good news all around. Not only does this new rule put a lid on too much Perplex, but it also makes the modifier rules of combat powers much simpler. No longer is there “you can do this with Range Combat Expert, but not that.” Instead, it all boils down to being able to count to three. <P>The only minor clarification the rule of 3 might need is the difference between <I>modifying</I> a value and <I>replacing</I> it. Powers and team abilities that override a value, thus replacing it entirely, do not apply to the rule of 3. This means that powers and team abilities that let you share a teammate’s defense or attack value can still be used to replace a teammate’s value without having to do any math. <P>With the longstanding restraints gone from the Combat Expert powers, and the shackles instead placed on modifier abuse, how will your game change?

[HydraBoy]

Well, we knew THAT was coming.....

[thugit]

Yay!

[4est]

Wow. Enhancement with RCE is nice. Our Lady of Psylocke is all that much sweeter with Cyke, Storm and Iceman.

[thugit]

Although that does kinda #### for HYDRA/PD teams. Oh well. I'm glad that Nightcrawler and Flash can no longer pound the stuffing out of Superman.


No more hooker bombs!!!!

[Lobot]

Good, been waiting for that......

[Neato-Magneto]

Does SHIELD team ability still work?

[Yeti]

Well this should shake things up a bit! Not much needed in our area, but overall a very good thing!

[themark37]

No suprise here.

Sorry cheese gamers looks like you going to need to learn how to play the game now...:eek: :laugh:

[Iceslinger]

I QUIT...uhhh, I don't know why...isn't that what you're supposed to say anytime a change is announced???

[VampireHunterD]

wow, who'd of thunk they'd do this huh?

VHD

[Aron]

Um, this is going to hurt Batman Enemies team and Spiderman Enemies teams....

[Mongoose]

Good decision Wizkids. I love playing Nightcrawler, but it doesn't make sense for him to be doing 6 or 7 clicks of damage. Thanks for putting a lid on it. I really like what you did with RCE too. This makes those figs that have other powers, on top of RCE, more useful in deciding what to do (Ex. perplex up Captain Marvel's damage to a 6, versus doing a running shot for 4 damage).

[archangel4661]

Well the hooker bombs will still be around it's just now those players that use them will have to find more creative ways to alter the numbers. Like using the extra ons speed or attack instead of just damage.

[themark37]

Now that I think about it Iron Man might not be to bad now with his Running shot and RCE. . . .No probably not.

I think I will give Cyclops a look again though.

[drgnoftyr]

too early to really judge but we knew this was coming

[Hellboy]

good.

another change that makes sense. glad to hear it. this simplifies things and encourages more fair play. I'm happy to hear this. when does it become effective? I hope before the Marquees for Unleashed?!

[freakazoid_x]

Really this doesn't put that big of a hurt on the Hooker Bomb tactic. I was hoping for better.

[Silver Lantern]

Seems fair enough. Good going WKs.

[thugit]

I think it pretty effectively neuters the hooker bombs. I could care less if Nightcrawler has 5 damage and a 13 attack.

It's when he has a 15 attack and 10 damage that it's out of hand. Then Sentinels are even worse. I'm glad this has been taken care of.

[themark37]

Originally posted by Aron
Um, this is going to hurt Batman Enemies team and Spiderman Enemies teams....

How so? Its a replacement value so you can still share it across the whole line.

[Gentlegamer]

Sounds like a good move, but I kinda don't like the boost RCE just got . . . HeroClix favors ranged combat too much as it is . . .

[tidge]

My first reaction is negative:

1) The SHIELD team ability is neutered, mostly for upping damage from RCE figures. This is somewhat lame for a TA that costs an action.

2) +3 damage from Perplex is still HUGE.

IMO, there are two problem mechanics: Perplex Stacking, and Special Ranged Combat exceptions for Fliers. It would be much easier to forbid Perplex stacking and eliminate all the special combat rules for fliers than tacking on this mess!

[Wasteland]

Not a bad change at all. It'll be interesting to see what happens to all those dominating Sentinel teams now...

[Superego Lad]

Quick question.

Does this apply to Blades/Claws, which applies its damage instead of the printed value? If so, it would seem to cap the amount of damage that Blades/Claws could inflict to no more than 3 over the printed amount. For charcters with Blades and base 3 damage this wouldn't really effect them at all, while those with 1 base damage and Blades could only do 4 damage.

I'll be fine with interpretations either way, I generally think this is a positive rule change.

[Manchine]

Nothing that wasnt expected.

[Ro-gan]

Yay for the Rule Of 3!!!!

[raphael76]

Yes!!!!!! Finally, I can stop running into a bunch of ho's running around with superheroes. Not to mention, I think its a nice balance so they don't completely cripple perplex either.

[Glen Quagmire]

Aron said: Um, this is going to hurt Batman Enemies team and Spiderman Enemies teams....

I was worried about that too, but azs said it looks like this will be covered. Those TAs replace the AV; they don't add to them.

Nonetheless, I was on the same page as you. I was getting worried about my Taskmaster/Hobgoblin combo and various Legionnaire/Bat-Villain combos.

[Gentlegamer]

Next up: Wildcard limited to once per turn . . .

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Yeah! I can perplex up RCE an extra one now!

[CaptainMarvel]

Great now C-Note does 8 damage with RCE.:confused: :disappoin :laugh:

Also where does it say that RCE can be used with RS?

[webhead817]

Wow, this is far more reaching than I think any of us may have guessed at, but it does also seem to simplify many things.

I think that B/C/F is perhaps a repalcement effect? I'm sure that Sin/Syn is as of now. Hmm.

[thugit]

Originally posted by Manchine
Nothing that wasnt expected.


I guess they shouldn't of announced it, since we all expected it.

Keep the Ultimates previews to yourselves also, we already know the set is coming.


;)

[davenappy]

This doesn't affect my personal style of play. I never used more than 2 or 3 total perplexers on a team, with only 2 or 3 hookers in that mix. Not really a hooker bomb.

I am glad to read that it will affect some of the tactics people complain about.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by thugit
I guess they shouldn't of announced it, since we all expected it.

Keep the Ultimates previews to yourselves also, we already know the set is coming.


;)

No kidding! :grin:

[Tylk]

And the Heroclix gods smiled down upon that fateful day, and said, "The rule of 3...We are pleased.", and all was right in the world.

[MJlover]

We all saw it coming, and it does help, but in my experience no one has ever used more than three perplexers anyway. I know it happens, but not around here. 3 still seems like a bit much to me, but, oh, well.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Meh. Six of one, half dozen of another.

I still think this could have been fixed by changing Pulse Wave so that an opposing character has to be in range for it to work.

Stackable Perplex was not the issue...CHEAP stackable perplex WAS.

So does this mean I can only Perplex up my damage one time if I'm using a heavy object in a Super Strength attack?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I wonder-- does this apply to characters weilding an object, too?


If not, Magog can do *10* given enough perplex!

[Glen Quagmire]

tidge said:+3 damage from Perplex is still HUGE.

Agreed. I can't say that I've seen more than 3 hookers on a team, but that alone is overkill when they're perplexing someone like Thor or the Surfer.

[evilspider]

So can you use running shot and range combat expert together?

[PsychoDBoy]

Originally posted by CaptainMarvel

Also where does it say that RCE can be used with RS?


I was wondering that myself....it just said basically you can use powers to up the damage, didnt say anythin bout the RCE/RS an Charge/CCE. Maybe some people see somethign we dont? *shrug*

[PsychoDBoy]

And luckily with this change, it'll neuter Hal GL carrying a carpload of enhancers with him everytime he wants to do a runningshot, that was something I wasn't looking forward to seeing happen, an now it won't be too bad.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by thugit
I guess they shouldn't of announced it, since we all expected it.

Keep the Ultimates previews to yourselves also, we already know the set is coming.


;)


I had to read that a couple of times to finally get. I guess I am just out of it today!

:laugh: :p ;)


Also no you still cant use RS and RCE together.

[Spock]

Does this apply to Blades/Claws, which applies its damage instead of the printed value?

I'd say it falls under replacement, so the rule of 3 doesn't apply.

I'm just wondering about objects...I don't *think* the rule of 3 applies to them because they don't actually modify the damage value..

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Magog = Monster. Not that he didn't already, but that could be 10 damage with Exploit Weakness.

Goodbye, any single figure!

[bakija]

All well and good, but still, giving Nightcrawler or a Sentinel +3 damage is just too much.

-Peter

[SpakSpang]

DS-00-0,FSD: Thats an interesting question. Does the object add to the damage your figure does. Or is it a seperate additional damage? Either way I think its fine if you can only perplex the damage up once.

Hooker Bombs will not be completely nuetered. Now you just have to be more creative. Yes you can only add an additional 3 clicks of damage. But you can still use 3 clicks to up your attack to ensure you hit. Then 3 to lower defenses of characters like Invisible Woman, Galactus and such...to also make sure you can lower defenses.

I personally would have liked to add with this rule that the effects last until your next turn. It would be nice to allow perplex to lower your opponents damage or attack value. Or use perplex for defense and just up your defense on a key figure while they are waiting to clear. This would create more teams using Perplex, but it would not be as abused because you could be using that perplex for several different uses.

[superfriend]

Thor - or anyone with natural damage of 4 or higher with enhancement, Shield, or perplex is a beast! While this is good, it does not fix the issues of perplex while I play. I still think it is unrealistic for someone to be so distracted that the opponent can to 3 more damage. I understand that Plasticman and Con Artists are distracting, but I never understood how distractions could cause damage. I like the idea of them affecting attack and defense values, but the damage, speed, and range part never made sense. I'd like to have perplex be completely non stackable.

[evilspider]

I only use two perplexers anyway so this doesn't affect me either

[ck2dstry]

I would have loved it if they had put the rule:

A character using perplex can only modify ONE unmodified value on the target character's dial.
That way Perplex could only modify damage +1, attack +1, movement +1...
And for the opponents character.. defense -1..

That would be awesome for me.. 3 is still too much.

[ck2dstry]

Oh, and have the rule that perplex lasts as long as outwit, to give it more meaning.

[AlgertMan]

nice, i actualy like that

[Ultimate_X-Men]

The magic number is 3. That's cool. I am not affected by this new rule much. I only use one or two Perplexers on my team.

[AlgertMan]

oh yeah, how does effect stuff like defend/ESD combo?...

[BoosterGold]

Originally posted by AlgertMan
oh yeah, how does effect stuff like defend/ESD combo?...

It shouldn't affect it as Defend replaces the figures printed DV adn energy shield only adds 2. That's my take anyway.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by SpakSpang
DS-00-0,FSD: Thats an interesting question. Does the object add to the damage your figure does. Or is it a seperate additional damage? Either way I think its fine if you can only perplex the damage up once.



But consider this:

Doc Samson walks up to Black Panther.

"Hello, BP. I would like you to meet my Dumpster. This will make me hurt you 2 clicks more than when I usually hit you. I will also use my flashy green hair to make you hurt 1 more click. Thank goodness I decided not to pick up the Soda Machine because evidently it makes my green hair less flashy so I cannot hurt you any more."

:cheeky:

But, whatever...

[shock man x]

It's all well and good, but I've never faced a "hooker bomb" team nor have I faced anyone that used more than two perplex figures. I've only used three at the most myself, and shield team was never that big either.

You really can't get more than two hydra/police figures around a figure so that isn't harming their either.

I see this as a worst thing though, with it stacking with RCE and CCE now. Seems these guys just got better. And a Sentinel doing +3 damage on a multi attack is still a problem.

Yep, doesn't change anything around my venue.

[themark37]

Oops, my mistake on the RS and RCE. I guess I got a little to excited. :)

[rotru]

Good night SHIELD, hate to see you go. :(

Maybe it's time to make SHIELD work for no action, but require line of sight like HYDRA. I think that would be fair. After all, you can get a Con Artist for cheaper than most SHIELD characters, and SHIELD would only work for ranged attacks. Plus, the adjacency would make them a big target for EE or PW. With a limit of 3, losing the action requirement shouldn't be a problem, right? What do you think?

[NickVenom3]

Well....this doesn't make since I guess it's to represent that they can't handle all that power there dealing extra?

[Greenandgold]

Wow! Way to go out on a limb with this one Wizkids. IMO, this change has no teeth to it. If you are going to do something about perplex, why only go halfway?

[turdburglar47]

Originally posted by superfriend
Thor - or anyone with natural damage of 4 or higher with enhancement, Shield, or perplex is a beast! While this is good, it does not fix the issues of perplex while I play. I still think it is unrealistic for someone to be so distracted that the opponent can to 3 more damage. I understand that Plasticman and Con Artists are distracting, but I never understood how distractions could cause damage. I like the idea of them affecting attack and defense values, but the damage, speed, and range part never made sense. I'd like to have perplex be completely non stackable.



All it takes is a small distraction to open you up for some serious damage.

Con Artist shows a little leg, you may be a little hard-up for some action lately, so it grabs your attention and turns your head away from Thor, who uses that exact moment to crack your spine with Mjolnir - which would do more damage at that point than it would if you were braced for it and able to roll with it, fully focused on the attack.

Two-Face flips his coin in the air, tryin to decide whether or not to shoot you, and all his coin flips are so dramatic that they call attention to themselves for everyone, including you, and while you hang on it's result as it flips in the air, that's when somebody TKs Croc up behind you to slash the ever-lovin' #### outta your hiney. Another thing that'll cause more damage while you're distracted than it would if you were paying attention.

Plastic Man turns into some sort of weird shape, maybe an impressionist painting, and as you're admiring the artistic workmanship of his altered form, you suddenly find a Batarang wedged up in the holiest of holies, and you're taken outta the fight until you run off and find a way to wrench that outta there without too much pain. If you'd seen it coming, you might've been able to keep it from hitting such a sensitive area.


Perplexing speed: Plastic Man turns into a trampoline and lets Batman bounce off him to give him an extra oomph to his movement. Con Artist unbuttons her blouse a little, giving Taskmaster a spring in his step, because the sooner he's done chopping up the suckapunks on the other team, the sooner he can go back and throw some Marvin Gaye on the stereo and get his, ahem, 'jimmy waxed.' If you'll pardon the expression.

Perplexing range: The Joker tosses Bane a slingshot. DEO Agents do a little kickline cheer for Nightwing, giving him an adrenaline rush enough to toss that baton a little farther.


I hope you see where I'm going with this. Distraction is crucial. Black Panther once was distracted by Everett Ross, and that was all Killmonger needed to beat him down and kill him. Well, almost, but I'd rather not try to explain the whole Moon Knight, Brother Voodoo plane-of-the-dead Panther God Nightmare shenanigans. Because I don't know if I could. Although it was cool because Panther was hilariously condescending to Moon Knight the whole time.

Anyway, rationalizing perplex is only limited to your creativity.

[tyroclix]

DRAT! You all realize what this means now, right?

There will be that many more voices complaining about Outwit and Hyper-Sonic Speed.

Well once they are changed as well - we'll be able to move to BCF and Support...

This rule doesn't effect me in anyway - other than teaming up Storm with Psylocke, now. It will be easier to switch between using RCE for now 5 or Energy Explosion for 2.

Otherwise, not a monumental change at all.

[thugit]

Originally posted by Greenandgold
Wow! Way to go out on a limb with this one Wizkids. IMO, this change has no teeth to it. If you are going to do something about perplex, why only go halfway?


I think this is pretty effective. What do you want them to do?

[IceHot]

Now they still use 12 perplexers they just use it with 4 jesse quicks.

[chuckkim00]

I don't think this completely kills the Shield characters.
1. Energy explosion/multiple targets can still only be used by enchancement/shield characters. Actually, for any multiple targets attacks, this is superior to perplex.
2. I'm hoping the team abilities are exempt from the "3" rule. That is, if you wanted to boost up someone's attack, a hydra/police/2000 ad bonus would not count towards the attack "3" upgrade limit. Same would go for Shield, as this is using an actual command, rather than a free action power.

[PsychoDBoy]

Originally posted by thugit
I think this is pretty effective. What do you want them to do?

Tha's what I was thinking....if this is 'halfway', is the full way eliminating perplex alltogether? I swear, some people gotta find fault with everything....

[bakija]

thugit wrote:
>>I think this is pretty effective. What do you want them to do?>>

Make Perplex unstackable (i.e. only one Perplexing per stat per figure per turn). Leaves single units with Perplex comepletely unchanged (as does this particular rule), but keeps Nighcrawler and a Sentinel from getting +3 damage. Which is still too much damage.

-Peter

[DaLuvster89]

I hope this means that RCE damage will be able to be split on Multiple-lightning bolt attacks... But probubly not...

Anyone think that Firelord may see a re-surgance now that his base damage can be Perplexed up to 4?

[Funky Jett]

It was already mentioned in this thread, but I think it was the best way to limit Perplex without making it useless.

Before the update, for 300 points, you could use a Sentinel, R IG, V Blizzard, and 10 Con Artists... and deal out 12 clicks to one target, or 11 clicks of damage to two targets (and it could even be the same one). That's ABUSE, plain and simple. That renders most figures to uselessness, even if they survived. Now, the damage tops out at 5 clicks for the rookie Sentinel. That's still a lot, but that is definitely more managable than 12 clicks.

And let's be honest... most people only Perplexed up their damage until their figures were weakened. This helps even things out. I agree with thugit... this is a good thing. This will keep players in the game who played in areas where Perplex was running rampant. Excellent job, WK!

[Glen Quagmire]

ck2dstry said: A character using perplex can only modify ONE unmodified value on the target character's dial.
That way Perplex could only modify damage +1, attack +1, movement +1...
And for the opponents character.. defense -1..

THIS is what should have been done.

[AZS]

Originally posted by AlgertMan
oh yeah, how does effect stuff like defend/ESD combo?...As mentioned, Defend is a replacement value, so there's no issue.
And ES/D can't really be an issue either, since Perplex only lasts until the end of the turn, perplexing up your own defense is moot.
For perplexing down a defense, you can only go 3 in either direction, so if ES/D adds +2, you can still bring it down 3 if you're so inclined.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by DaLuvster89
Anyone think that Firelord may see a re-surgance now that his base damage can be Perplexed up to 4?
I would, except Firelord is retiring in June...

[Puuka]

ARTHUR: Yes, of course! The Holy Con Artist of Xplosion! 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Magneto carries with him! Brother Magneto! Bring up the Holy Con Artist!
THUGS: [chanting] Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.
ARTHUR: How does it, um-- how does it work?
LANCELOT: I know not, my liege.
ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments!
BROTHER MAGNETO: Armaments, Chapter Two, verses Nine to Twenty-one.
SECOND BROTHER: And Sarah Saint John raised the Con Artist up on high, saying,'O Lord, bless this thy Con Artist that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--
MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.
SECOND BROTHER: And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt push the Holy Clix. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then Perplex thou thy Holy Purple Sentinel of Heroclix towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.'
MAYNARD: Amen.

[DaLuvster89]

Good point, Funky!

[Iknor]

I've been looking forward to this ruling.

[DarkMalakim]

I think this is gonna go where all those other rules they made when Indy Clix, in the garbage. The way they keep limiting the game, were gonna need rulebooks like Warhammer 40k soon.

[Cell]

And the Whiners gooo Wild! Whooo :barf:

Ive noticed something, if people whine about something, Wizkids rolls over and changes it. Firelord? Indy! Too many Expensive NCs that Whiners cant buy? Set Rotation and This terrible game mechanic! Whooo how fun.

Now no value of any figure can be modified by more than 3. How exactly does this make the game more fun, or more playable? It neuters more figures than its worth... How Pathetic. I cant beat a NC team so ill whine about it and hope my opponent cant play with one instead... Boo hoo.

[Greenandgold]

Originally posted by bakija
Make Perplex unstackable (i.e. only one Perplexing per stat per figure per turn). Leaves single units with Perplex comepletely unchanged (as does this particular rule), but keeps Nighcrawler and a Sentinel from getting +3 damage. Which is still too much damage.

-Peter

This is what going all the way with the rule change would be. Rule of 3 is only halfway IMO.

If Wizkids was serious about getting rid of perplex abuse, then they wouldn't have put the con artist in Universive and wouldn't have given us the DEO agent. ;)

[Greenandgold]

And before people start reading too much into my posts, I am not making a comment on whether or not I think it is a good rule change. Just that it almost a non-rule change.

[thugit]

Originally posted by Cell
It neuters more figures than its worth... How Pathetic. I cant beat a NC team so ill whine about it and hope my opponent cant play with one instead... Boo hoo.


Please explain to all of us which figures are now "neutered."

[nu tengu]

The most significant change most of us will see, however, actually concerns the ever-popular Ranged and Close Combat Expert powers. The rule of 3 allows you to increase damage values in combination with these powers! But, per the same rule, you can increase the damage value only by 1 because Ranged Combat Expert and Close Combat Expert already add +2 – one more from Perplex and you’ve reached the limit of 3.<P>For Close Combat Expert, this is a minimal help, especially since you still cannot use CCE with Super Strength because CCE is still a power action. But Ranged Combat Expert gets a great boost from this change because it now allows you to also use the Enhancement power to increase damage. And even though you’ve always been able to use team abilities that increase damage with RCE, it’s now limited to an increase of just 1.

But previously it said that Perplex and Enhancement may not be used to increase RCE's damage, only AV/DV/Range as in the case of Perplex.

So they're saying now u can Enhance an RCE attack? Cyclops can do 5 clicks instead of the usual 4? :ermm:

[seven]

great post Puuka. That really made me laugh.

[BrotherMagneto]

Originally posted by Puuka
ARTHUR: Yes, of course! The Holy Con Artist of Xplosion! 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Magneto carries with him! Brother Magneto! Bring up the Holy Con Artist!
THUGS: [chanting] Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.
ARTHUR: How does it, um-- how does it work?
LANCELOT: I know not, my liege.
ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments!
BROTHER MAGNETO: Armaments, Chapter Two, verses Nine to Twenty-one.
SECOND BROTHER: And Sarah Saint John raised the Con Artist up on high, saying,'O Lord, bless this thy Con Artist that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--
MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.
SECOND BROTHER: And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt push the Holy Clix. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then Perplex thou thy Holy Purple Sentinel of Heroclix towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.'
MAYNARD: Amen.

The new official Best Post Ever. :)

[tyroclix]

Please explain to all of us which figures are now "neutered."

Easy:

Pogs, Destiny, and the Paramedic. None of them can KO Superman in just one blow. They're useless!!!

[Mr. Pilkington]

Great. I'm still trying to get my local players trained to deal with all the differences in the Indy rulebook. Now they change something like this.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind restricting Perplex. I'm honestly of the opinion that Perplex should not stack at all and that perplex/Outwit/PC should have their ranges tied to the figure's actual range value, defaulting to a 4 like MC for figures without a natural ranged attack, but limiting it soe is better than not at all.

But opening up RCE/CCE to be modified? Sure, I guess it simplifies the rules a bit. I'm just not sure I like it. Of course, I didn't like the fact that two Con Artists could effectively make any ranged figure a Ranged Combat Expert by perplexing up the damage by 2. :ermm:

[littlebigguy]

I would like to see perplex's range reduced to half - like 5 squares instead of 10, This would make it alot harder to stack perplex and reduce its effective range from 20 squares to 15 (meaning if you are 10 squares behind a fig that has range 10).
Even make perplex be a power that can only be used when adjacent to a character.

[Mr. Pilkington]

Oh, and mad props to Puuka on the Holy Con Artist post. :)

[deathsythe]

I think this is great and glad the rule is offical. Not many people around here use more then 2 or 3 put when someone decided to be funny and include a team full of them it would become a very annoying day. Thanks much wizkids.

[Spidersense]

I like the limit on Perplex, but for the life of me, I dont see why they included being able to Perplex damage on an RCE or CCE figure. Was it that hard of a rule to remember?

I guess I really dont like it because my venue does not have a Perplex abuse problem. We house rule Perplex to a limit of +1 per stat. I see the RCE and CCE change as an unnecessary increase in those figures damage dealing ability.

[olcottr]

I love it. It makes Sinister Syndicate and Batman Enemy more powerful. And it makes your high-cost figures worth their points.

[Puuka]

Originally posted by BrotherMagneto
The new official Best Post Ever. :)

Whooo, my 2nd one

[BrotherMagneto]

Originally posted by Puuka
Whooo, my 2nd one

Well done Puuka, nice work, I'll most likely kill you in the morning. ;)

[Puuka]

I like my solution of having Perplex and outwit work like mind control with a click of damage for every 100 points(This doesn't fix it for figs like Nightcrawler or Firelord). Or maybe change it a bit that says for each aditional click of perplex, a point of damage is dealt to the second perplexer and 2 to the third. Could also make it an tokenable action (probably the one that would make the most sense).

[Puuka]

Originally posted by BrotherMagneto
Well done Puuka, nice work, I'll most likely kill you in the morning. ;)

You say that every night. Who do you think you are, the Dread Pirate Roberts?








Arrrrrrrrrr, Pirates

[Mr.Heroclix]

Maybe it'll actually be worth going to tournaments now.

[Cobalt Dragon]

Originally posted by Cell
And the Whiners gooo Wild! Whooo :barf:

Ive noticed something, if people whine about something, Wizkids rolls over and changes it. Firelord? Indy! Too many Expensive NCs that Whiners cant buy? Set Rotation and This terrible game mechanic! Whooo how fun.

Now no value of any figure can be modified by more than 3. How exactly does this make the game more fun, or more playable? It neuters more figures than its worth... How Pathetic. I cant beat a NC team so ill whine about it and hope my opponent cant play with one instead... Boo hoo.

Explain to me please, why a Nightcrawler should have been able to be perplexed up to do 8-10 damage by Con Artists? I think this rule keeps the game fun for the gamer that tries to use their mind and develop a strategy. Whereas the Hooker bomb was just a simpleton's way to basically ruin any legitimate strategy! The rule is great, I only wish that WizKids had made it official much sooner!!

[BrotherMagneto]

Originally posted by Puuka
You say that every night. Who do you think you are, the Dread Pirate Roberts?








Arrrrrrrrrr, Pirates

Well, no one surrendered to the Dread Pirate Brother Magneto. :(

[FEGG]

I posted back in November or thereabouts that I thought it was just a matter of time until this "Rule of 3" from Mage Knight 2.0 was coming to HeroClix.

I'm guessing that it is not the last mechanic we'll see come from MK2. What's next: Expanded dials? Artifacts? Modified Victory conditions? Fun fun fun...

[Ro-gan]

All I have to say is:

Yay! for the Rule Of 3!!!!

[Puuka]

Originally posted by BrotherMagneto
Well, no one surrendered to the Dread Pirate Brother Magneto. :(

Thats because you don't say "Arrrrrrrrrr" enough

[The Werle]

Originally posted by Aron
Um, this is going to hurt Batman Enemies team and Spiderman Enemies teams....

Not at all, it will make them stronger. The rule of three wont matter, as you aren't adding to a character's value, but instead replacing them. You could then add on top of the replacement value if you wished.

IE: Bullseye is next to Rhino. Rhino's attack becomes an 11. I could then perplex his attack all the way up to 14 is I had the figures necessary to do so.

[Ro-gan]

Puuka:

GREAT post (#76)!!!!

[Uniquist]

*sigh*, all we all wanted was no stackable perplex. Now there's even more incentive to have perplex because it can help your RCE'ers to boot.

Sentinel and Nightcrawler were perfectly happy with 3 perplexers. Now they are not unhappy at all.

What's been accomplished? Very little it seems to me. Making a rule with little "teeth" now legitimizes Nighty + 3 hookers, for 5 dmg after he's TKed and destroys your medic, or sets up someone else for a KO. (he's got an effective 24 movement). Most of these cheese teams I've seen will not change AT ALL.

I would bet that most of the ppl on this board *don't* use those cheese teams (of course, many of you like to point that out anyway :-)

-Ed
ps Here's my obligatory point as well - "I don't use cheese teams". Well I have, because this one guy needed a smackdown playing Nighty + 3 plexers at 12 (no exagerration) tourneys in a row.

[Puuka]

Originally posted by ro_gan
Puuka:

GREAT post (#76)!!!!

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week

[littlebigguy]

Taking out perplexers isn't as hard as alot of people are making it sound. TK Iceman in and create a barrier around the fig they are going to perplex, or create a barrier blocking their line of sight or something. There are a lot of ways to get rid of perplex. You can drive a perplex user crazy with mutiple barrier makers.

[SLAYER X]

that news is cool but doesn't really hurt anyone strategy too much. it would be another story if it aid you could only perplex a charicter 3 times. As it is you still have thor with a 15 running shot 7 damage and 15 attack and a 13 range. I don't think the rule of 3 did much at all.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Puuka
BROTHER MAGNETO: Armaments, Chapter Two, verses Nine to Twenty-one.
...
MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.
...
MAYNARD: Amen. You forgot to change all the "Maynard"s to "Magneto"s. :p

[fridayweb]

I can't believe people are complaining about this. This is about the only rules change that I've cheered.

Before you could Perplex up a character's Damage with as many Perplexers (CAs) as could see them. Now you can only boost it up 3. How is that not better?

[Puuka]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
You forgot to change all the "Maynard"s to "Magneto"s. :p

Whoops, It was just listed a "Brother" then "Brother Two" My bad

[I Am The Game]

Originally posted by FEGG
I posted back in November or thereabouts that I thought it was just a matter of time until this "Rule of 3" from Mage Knight 2.0 was coming to HeroClix.

I'm guessing that it is not the last mechanic we'll see come from MK2. What's next: Expanded dials? Artifacts? Modified Victory conditions? Fun fun fun...

Hey, I've got a Silver Samurai fig with his name and number printed on a 2.0 base that has room for an ability nexus...!

[Uniquist]

fridayweb: I can't believe people are complaining about this. This is about the only rules change that I've cheered.

Before you could Perplex up a character's Damage with as many Perplexers (CAs) as could see them. Now you can only boost it up 3. How is that not better?

fridayweb - I see 2 reasons - the first that most people are saying are that it's not good enough, which I agree with. The second, which I babbled about, is that it actaully achieves somewhat of the *opposite* of what it's supposed to do - since now it's "OK" to have up to 3 perplexers on your team/perplexing a character. Up to this point, many venues I've played at, the players hold each other accountable for the cheese factor, and, since most people don't want other players to really , really dislike them, have shied away from 3 plexers. It's usually 2 at most.

Summary: The rule of 3 is good in theory, although not good enough, but in practice....well, we don't know yet :-)

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I've never seen perplex of anything but damage as an issue in the first place. All the talk of how this is a problem becuase you can perplex up movement, attack, etc-- good! I play a *lot* of DC figures in mixed games, and multiple perplex is one way to deal with high defense values.

And in an Unleashed sealed game las week, having two perplexers was a godsend in making Dr Fate and GL easier to hit.

[Cell]

Originally posted by Cobalt Dragon
Explain to me please, why a Nightcrawler should have been able to be perplexed up to do 8-10 damage by Con Artists? I think this rule keeps the game fun for the gamer that tries to use their mind and develop a strategy. Whereas the Hooker bomb was just a simpleton's way to basically ruin any legitimate strategy! The rule is great, I only wish that WizKids had made it official much sooner!!

the con artist bomb is beatable. Simple as that. Why should perplex be limited. I dont buy this "Comic book" argument. Heroclix in its base, is a game, its impossible for it to be 100 percent like a comic book. If not then how long till other powers get neutered? BCF (One of my favorite Powers) Im looking at you. I dont care if in the comics a Con Artist, cant con a Superman.

In essence this rule is simply done to limit Nightcrawler and Sentinels effectiveness. Sentinel costs 300 pts, if you want to limit him, either make lower point games, or ban constructs like my venue did.


If its NC your worried about, make a limit for the amount of nons you can use, instead of 10 or 15 Con Artists (Ive never seen anybody play this huge amount) 4or 5.. To me this simply limits the Perplex power, but instead makes Higher Cost figures, more abusive than ever. Adding Perplex to RCE/CCE? totally unnencecary, it makes KC Supes, even better, like he even neeeded it.

The 3 rule probably ends the use of Shield, Hydra and Police teams as well, another Team Ability that got neutered, with the rule change, like the GL rule did once NAAT, FCCF came into play.

Totally unnececary rules IMO, rules that would have been unnencecary because of the Set Rotation anyways. They basically overkilled it.

[SilverAgeFlash]

As a owner of KC Superman i say this is a step in the right direction.:cool:

[FireLFighter]

Originally posted by Tylk
And the Heroclix gods smiled down upon that fateful day, and said, "The rule of 3...We are pleased.", and all was right in the world. I couldn't say it better...:cool:

But wait: Still 9 Hookers for 'crawler +3move, +3attack, +3damage...

[Superego Lad]

You forgot three more for adding 3 range to Nightcralwer.

[RangedCombatEx]

Meh...

I still think that WK should have made the a rule ONLY allowing the center dial to be perplexed and not damage or range.

[FireLFighter]

Also I forgot -3 enemy's defense...

[warden]

Too little, too late.

Andrew

[SLAYER X]

question, can you perplex 1 charicter 12 times or just 3. For example thor gets +3 to his move, attack, damge and range. or only three. I think it is 12 but the way some people ar talking it seems like only three times in all.

[FireLFighter]

I have to admit that I used the Hooker Bomb. It is not unbeatable ... but it takes all the fun out of the game. I'm truly happy that it is limited now. It will change my style of play, but I'm happy about it.

[FireLFighter]

Originally posted by SLAYER X
question, can you perplex 1 charicter 12 times or just 3. For example thor gets +3 to his move, attack, damge and range. or only three. I think it is 12 but the way some people ar talking it seems like only three times in all. 15 times ... as I said +3 move, +3 attack, +3 damage, +3 range, -3 opponents defense ...

[Puuka]

Originally posted by FireLFighter
15 times ... as I said +3 move, +3 attack, +3 damage, +3 range, -3 opponents defense ...

And if you are so inclines for the sake of say Pulse Wave, Energy Explosion or Quake, Defence. So 18 times

[Nickel97]

I think the rule should be that Perplex is retroactively removed from the rule book entirely. any team that has won a match using a figure with perplex is banned outright and the player that played them is disqualified from those tournaments and forced to mail back any prize support gained along with all of their "BANNNED!!!!" figures from IC. Either that or perplex is only effective if the player sings a song and does a dance while using it, and then the modifier is only +/- 0.

Or

All figures should retroactively gain perplex.

Only choosing one of those options will make the game fair , balanced, unbroken, vanilla and completely boring or ridiculously unfun and unbalanced to the point where KC Superman can easily be dispatched by the Movie Star pog on a regular basis.



There are two kinds of whiners in this game. Those that whine that they get beaten by no-brainer cheese teams. They whine before rules changes. then there are the Whiners who appear after rules changes and cry about how they have to actually build new teams on occaision and can't just coast to their LEs (which they don't really need because they'll never play them unless they are Cheese tastic).

[Cabbage]

Wizkids are morons for not seeing how perplex could be abused in the first place, then chasing their tails around trying to fix their stupid mistakes.

[Deathlok23]

Originally posted by Cell
The 3 rule probably ends the use of Shield, Hydra and Police teams as well, another Team Ability that got neutered, with the rule change, like the GL rule did once NAAT, FCCF came into play.


I like the good rant as the next guy, but when have you ever seen more than 2 Hydra/Police used on one figure? Line of Fire issues, hello? I've never seen more than 2 SHIELD figures used on 1 attack ever (can you say Ultron?) That was 3 actions right there. I've held a few high point events, but I usually lower the actions and the number of figures usable to allow players a chance to use the higher cost figures. Maybe you run a lot of 500+ point games, but there rare in these parts as far as tournaments go. I just don't buy this argument that these teams are any worst off. End of my rant ;)

[Quade]

Love it, I love it, I love it!

[lukebuchanan]

Originally posted by Cabbage
Wizkids are morons for not seeing how perplex could be abused in the first place, then chasing their tails around trying to fix their stupid mistakes.

Nothing like a voice of reason to hush an excited crowd............. :rolleyes: ..........just lay off.

Luke B. likin' limited perplex

[Cabbage]

Pfft! Who are you to tell me what to do?

[Transfotaku]

The question becomes then, with the examples of RCE+Enhancement in that (and the implied CCE+SS) do the Combat Expert powers no longer have the 'can not be used with other powers' clause?

If so that's pretty nice. The X-Men now hang around Psylocke protecting the ninja beauty with their bolts and ice. Ulik now smoozes it up with his hooker before pimpslapping a rival on 'his turf'.

Not to mention HSS+RCE on KC Supes with a 'Go hero!' perp to it.

If that's the case, if the CE powers (CCE/RCE) can now be used with other powers, that opens up a lot of good combinations that should have been playable from the onset. The whole "no use with other powers" was silly considering the 'hooker bomb' was better than CCE/RCE was.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by BrotherMagneto
Well done Puuka, nice work, I'll most likely kill you in the morning. ;)

Arrr! Ye heard it here first! Brother Magneto be a PIRATE!

[Heretic]

Originally posted by Aron
Um, this is going to hurt Batman Enemies team and Spiderman Enemies teams.... The only minor clarification the rule of 3 might need is the difference between modifying a value and replacing it. Powers and team abilities that override a value, thus replacing it entirely, do not apply to the rule of 3. This means that powers and team abilities that let you share a teammate’s defense or attack value can still be used to replace a teammate’s value without having to do any math. NO affect on team abilities.

[JtHM_Dude]

well i can still turn off rce and have superman slam you for 8
or nightcrawler for 5

but i dont like this really

i enjoy playing against stacked teams

i wish that rce could be used with movement
i would rather have that than rce being able to be modified

[BigSoph]

Originally posted by Superego Lad
Quick question.

Does this apply to Blades/Claws, which applies its damage instead of the printed value?

It is answered already. It only deals with modifiers, not replacement values

Same goes for Spider-Man/Batman Enemies

Those are NOT modifiers; they are replacements

I agree 33% with this rule

[tyroclix]

do the Combat Expert powers no longer have the 'can not be used with other powers' clause?

As of October 2003, the Combat Expert powers no longer had that clause.

The only thing you couldn't do was affect the damage dealt (outside of critical hits).

You could Perplex the range, attack, etc as well as use Stealth, Willpower, etc as long as it didn't conflict with another power's rule (like using Charge and CCE).

[weezer_10]

Originally posted by Cabbage
Pfft! Who are you to tell me what to do?
If you have felt personally offended by what Wizkids have done here, write a letter, write an email, contact your local M.P., but please, do not go on acting like an arse provoking other board members.

Show some respect, or you're going to find yourself with a lot of warning points and a ban notice.

Thank you, and have a nice day. :classic:

[TheRavenHQ]

I can still Perplex the opponent's fig -3 and my attacker +3 right? :P

[WakandaMan]

Puuka- that was legendary! I second Bro Mags nomination for the best post ever. :laugh:

I have to agree with most people here. It's a step in the right direction, but +3 is still too much on damage. +3 on other values is fine, but not to others...

The RCE and CCE conditions are a little surprising. Seems uneccessary- sure it may be a little less complicated, but not if everyone is already used to the usual restrictions (which they are). Seems to me that WK always tries to balance a restrictive change with some kind of improvment that is totally uneccessary (such as that crazy flyers shooting out of Base contact rule).

[krusticlese]

Having any SHIELD figures on your team is kind of pointless anymore when you can just preplex up the RCE attack from 10 squares away :rolleyes:

Oh well, they'll all be retired soon enough anyway :p :(

Good rule overall! :)

[Joe Kerr]

Wait, I've noticed bits and pieces around this thread. You can now combine RCE and CCE with running shot, HSS, or charge?

I feel like I've come out of one of those Afgan caves. I knew when I moved and started playing this game again I would need to freshen up on the rules I'm a bit rusty.

[asteroidjawa]

The only good thing about this is that RCE and CCE can now have thier damage increased, albeit only by 1. I never understood the reason why Doomsday's punch couldn't be increased but She Hulk can perplex up her punch all you want. CCE should be able to be used in any CC Attack. After all that is the damage they should be doing and the only reason it is a power action is so it isn't combined with a SS object. So kudos on being able to perplex CCE and RCE.

Of course that is where any usefulness of this rule ends. You can still replace defence with ivisible girl's defend and then up it up to a 21. That is just one way around the rule. There are so many ways around the rule of 3 in MK it is almost pointless except for a couple of abilities. If they don't want enhancement doing so much damage, specificly limit it in the SA, same goes for perplex. Just be glad there arn't any formations in HC for this rule to bone over. This isn't going to have that big of an impact unless you use 4+ hookers on a team. But even then you can just increase range or attack, so no big loss.

Now I can't wait for this to be put into play with MW where is will completely neuter formations.

[Glorfindel]

No, you still can't combine Running Shot & Charge with RCE & CCE.

[shin-goji]

I am a little dissappointed on the ruling, but support it. I would have rather seen a rule of 2.

Now, up for discussion:
Objects, Critical Hits, do they apply to the rule of three.
Does the wording on Enhancement supercede the rule of 3?

[kwsazul]

Well it sounds good to me, but I really don't see alot of perplex abuse. If any one brings a hooker heavy team to a venue I play at we give them a hard time, verbally and especially game-wise.
Question:Perplex is limited to 3 right, so if you have 3 perplexers why use CCE or RCE.
I am will to bet good money that we will now probably see multiple perplexers, upping different stats, +3 damage, +3 defense, +3 attack, but ahh who cares hooker bombs #### anyway, a 17 pt Robin can stop a sooped up NC dead in his tracks.

[Cabbage]

Weezer.... how does ST** sound to you? I'm allowed to voice my opinion just as much as the next person. Up until now I haven't insulted anybody so why don't you get off your high horse?

Thank you and have a nice day.

[Bakool11]

i think this is good, less we forget though that most pulse wavers are now going to be gone once universe comes out. All save LE Doom, and vet/le avalanche, who'll be gone shortly there after. That, above all will kill any con artist teams.

[WakandaMan]

LOL. Anyone else find Cabbage's remarks amusing given his signature line. I guess weezer must have probability control so that he can re-roll that 6 :p

AND JUST TO CLARIFY (for what, the 9th time now), you can NOT use RCE and CCE with Charge/Running Shot/Hypersonic Speed. RCE and CCE are both Power actions, and those movement powers allow for a free combat] action instead.

It is just allowing them to be used in conjunction with non-Power action powers such as Perplex and Enhancement.

Hey...here's a thought. Is there anyone with both Psychic Blast and RCE? I'm pretty sure that PB is not a power action. That would be a nice combo.

[Nickel97]

Originally posted by Bakool11
i think this is good, less we forget though that most pulse wavers are now going to be gone once universe comes out. All save LE Doom, and vet/le avalanche, who'll be gone shortly there after. That, above all will kill any con artist teams.


Because Cyborg is facing premature retirement...? Hoookerbombing will still be possible in Open tournaments.

On the whole, I like this rule. Three should be a reasonable amount for any one stat (damage included) to be perplexed (I will miss my Knuckles having 15 range and 10 damage on a 300 point team, but such is life).


I'm most interested in how it affects enhancement. If it nerfs multi-target enhancement, then I'll be a bit annoyed.

[Captain_Comet]

So ... if I have 9 perplexers
I can Make Kingdom Comes Superman's
Range 13
Attack 16
and Damage 8

That sounds plenty good to me.
I think I will have my guys playtest the ruling tomorrow.

[fridayweb]

Originally posted by Nickel97
I'm most interested in how it affects enhancement. If it nerfs multi-target enhancement, then I'll be a bit annoyed.

Didn't that happen already?

[odieses]

How does this ruling affect characters with superstrength and CCE like doomsday? I'd like to know if you can use both these powers together now and boost the CCE up 2 or 3 because of the item using a light item just boosts 1 so with the ruling it can be used i think id just like to know what they will do about this. Might actually make doomsday worth his points using CCE with Dumpster would destroy folks.

[Nickel97]

Originally posted by fridayweb
Didn't that happen already?

As it stands now Enhancement adds one to the damage dealt to each figure hit by an attack. So Cyclops triple targeting three thugs with Psylocke next to him could divide his 2 damage between the three thugs doing 1 to thug A one to thug B and 0 to Thug C. Then enhancement kicks in, adding 1 damage to each target hit. so A takes 2, B takes 2 and C takes 1. (Enhancement was nerfed a bit in connection to EE, but that's a different story).

Now it looks like enhancement is going to just become something like "give this character a free action - an adjacent friendly figure gets +1 damage on their next range attack" or something to that effect. This further devalues low natural damage, multi-targeting figures like Hawkeye, Cyclops etc.

[Nickel97]

Originally posted by odieses
How does this ruling affect characters with superstrength and CCE like doomsday? I'd like to know if you can use both these powers together now and boost the CCE up 2 or 3 because of the item using a light item just boosts 1 so with the ruling it can be used i think id just like to know what they will do about this. Might actually make doomsday worth his points using CCE with Dumpster would destroy folks.

[qoute] from original article

For Close Combat Expert, this is a minimal help, especially since you still cannot use CCE with Super Strength because CCE is still a power action.[/quote]

[Heretic]

Originally posted by Funky Jett
I would, except Firelord is retiring in June... Retired only from restricted. It's not like the WK cops are going to break down the door if you pull out a retired figure for crying out loud.

[ReZourceman]

Originally posted by Iceslinger
I QUIT...uhhh, I don't know why...isn't that what you're supposed to say anytime a change is announced???


ROFLMAO, congratulations sir you have just earnt yourself the admirer tag.

(see my sig)

[weezer_10]

Originally posted by WakandaMan
LOL. Anyone else find Cabbage's remarks amusing given his signature line. I guess weezer must have probability control so that he can re-roll that 6 :p
Did I mention I'm also a limited edition mounted piece? My high-horse, Mr. Ed, has a Charge for the length of his dial. :p :grin: :p

[Noman]

Not unexpected, but still SILLY.

Apparantly, various venues in the USA had been using rule of 3 as a House rule, plus Perplex based teams are very strong, but even so this was an unnecesary change IMHO.

Then again, so many of them are...

I tend to the view that playtesting, or rather the lack of it, is still broadly at fault...

The way things are going, all tourney teams will soon be one big gun (Shazam / Supes / Despero / whoever) and some healers - untill that gets FAQ'd too !

Ah well,

LoL

All the Best

Noman

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by shin-goji
I am a little dissappointed on the ruling, but support it. I would have rather seen a rule of 2.

Now, up for discussion:
Objects, Critical Hits, do they apply to the rule of three.
Does the wording on Enhancement supercede the rule of 3?

The article says that under the new rules RCE is considered a +2 to the ranged combat damage and that Enhancement CAN be used with RCE to give a total of +3 (but no higher) to the ranged combat damage. The wording of CCE, RCE, and Enhancement is going to change with the advent of Universe.

I would expect the rules for the extra damage dealt gained from Objects and Critical Hits will be re-worded to be compatible with new Rule of Three, and not count against the +3 limit.

[warden]

To my mind, RCE is as much a restriction as a bonus. It means that, while the character is good at ranged combat, they are hopeless at close combat. It might equally have been expressed by giving them higher natural damage and a negative modifier for close combat.

When you combine this Perplex and the rule of three, you get a perverse result. If there's lots of perplex available - and why not when its so cheap and easy - then such characters will become equally good at ranged and close combat. For example, Cyclops with natural damage of 1 can either do 4 by close combat with 3 perplex or 4 by ranged combat using +2 from RCE and +1 from perplex.

This is silly because there no logical relationship between the RCE and perplex - they are independent powers. And the same goes for CCE, of course. Grrr. :angry:

Andrew

[CptBlood]

For purposes of my venue...this rule will make things worse.

Rarely did players go over 3 Con Artists but now they can use them with RCE and CCE. I guess that evens things out for the 'poor' figures that could not reap the benefits of Perplex but over all I believe I will see more Perplex at my venue now.


+3 attack and +3 damage is still some crazy sheet.

CptBlood

[JayThor]

Originally posted by weezer_10
Did I mention I'm also a limited edition mounted piece? My high-horse, Mr. Ed, has a Charge for the length of his dial. :p :grin: :p That is funny!:laugh:

I like the change, though like shin, I would rather a rule of 2...

[Keleko]

I'm hoping the new RCE wording allows figures like Bullseye and Cyclops to apply their RCE damage to multiple target attacks.

[XocgX]

I think they simply should have made perplex not stack period. Why make it complicated? Most people don't use more then 3 perplexers anyway, and now that you can boost RCE and CCE, it's like they made it worse......U Flash seeing a 6 boobs should not allow him to punch as hard as the Hulk!

[tidge]

Perplex up a Sinister Syndicate Attack Value by 3, share that value with someone, and then perplex the shared value by 3 more?

ESD + Terrain give +3 to defense, are there any other modifiers allowed for defenders?

Will people argue that "Outwit" is modifying?

[Mr. Pilkington]

Perplex up a Sinister Syndicate Attack Value by 3, share that value with someone, and then perplex the shared value by 3 more?

This won't work. SinSyn TA shares the unmodified attack value, i.e. what is actually printed on the dial. Even if you perplex up the attack value on a SinSyn figure it will only share the printed number, not the modified one. So you will still only get +3 from Perplex if you use it on the figure borrowing the attack value.

And as for ES/D + Hindering, those are the only modifiers for Defense so far. Perplex doesn't last until an opponent's turn and Defend/JSA/Defenders are replacement like SinSyn.

[Cell]

Originally posted by Noman


The way things are going, all tourney teams will soon be one big gun (Shazam / Supes / Despero / whoever) and some healers - untill that gets FAQ'd too !


All the Best

Noman


I agree with you 110 percent. I think cheap Support is what should be eliminated from heroclix, and not cheap perplex. For a game that claims similarity to comics as an excuse for rule changes, cheap support is a blatant black eye. You dont see superman or Batman going to the local PHD for a checkup. Things like Paramedics, and Jane Fosters and DEO Agents with Support, should be gone. Support should only be given to high value characters like Sam Rey, and Silver Surfer.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by tidge
ESD + Terrain give +3 to defense, are there any other modifiers allowed for defenders?

The only other factor that would come into play for defense value is Defend. Defend is a replacement value (as per the FAQ glossary entry) and does not count against the Rule of Three.

The following is legal:
Invisible Girl + Bullseye + hindering terrain = 21 defense value vs ranged attacks for Bullseye

[bakija]

Shin-Goji wrote:
>>I am a little dissappointed on the ruling, but support it. I would have rather seen a rule of 2.>>

Agreed. I mean, yeah, a "Rule of 3" is better than nothing, in terms of Perplex (well at least somewhat better than nothing), but still, +3 damage on figures like Nightcrawler (or Jessie Quick or The Flash) or a Sentinel is still just too much extra damage. In a game with a scale like this (i.e. about 40% of the figures in the game have 5 or fewer clicks of life; about 50% have 6 or fewer), a modifier of +3 damage is basically still making a Thug into an instant death machine.

The "Perplex+RCE" remains to be seen if it is actually an issue ('cause that is, really, just +1 damage, which was already possible with SHIELD).

I suspect that they went with the "Rule of 3" 'cause it has a catchy name, doesn't specifically hose anything,and matches their other games. But in reality, it simply doesn't fix what it is intended to fix.

-Peter

[ItsNotMe]

Agreed. I haven't been able to slog through the whole thread, but it looks like the last few posts are exactly my thoughts.

Three is the point where perplex goes from being annoying to being abusive. The problem with perplex is that its dramatically cheaper than the stat increases and the more you stack the more dramatic that difference becomes. One is livable because dealing with one perplexer isn't that big of a deal; two still isn't that bad, but at three you've got guys hitting through invulnerability for more than their base damage and even the ####piest figure can reduce all but the steadiest dialed figure to the weak mid-dial in one shot. A rule of two would have been better, but just saying that you can only change a stat once per turn with perplex takes a lot less wording and fixes the issue a lot more cleanly than a few paragraphs of confusing rules that are going to start a nice pile of arguments in the future.

SHIELD TA wasn't an issue; it took an action to use. Enhancement wasn't an issue because of the strict positioning rules. Hydra/PD TA wasn't a problem because the most you could get out of that against anyone except a Sentinel, Sinestro, or Galactus is +2 (anything higher and someone blocks the line of sight for someone else). Creating this rule of three and extending it to those abilities is completely unnecessary. The only time it would come into play is when attempting to use one of those abilities to augment an already perplexed value but since Perplex is cheaper to use than any of those abilities and lacks the limitations of them I have never seen anyone try to use them together.

And then on top of all that, was it really Wizkids intentions that Perplex be used to indefinitely increase power? Was it important enough that Perplex needed to get a slight power increase (affecting the Expert Powers) while getting slightly scaled down?

The rule of three is a bandaid that doesn't really fix that much and adds a lot of confusion to the rules. Just changing one simple line to the PAC would have fixed the problem without the massive, confusing rules.

[szude]

Originally posted by warden
To my mind, RCE is as much a restriction as a bonus. It means that, while the character is good at ranged combat, they are hopeless at close combat. It might equally have been expressed by giving them higher natural damage and a negative modifier for close combat.


This isn't exactly true. Because of the (IMO extremely silly) rule where your flyer can *always* use their range combat expert, there is essentially no "negative modifier".

[DaLuvster89]

Has it been cleared up as to how the Rule of 3 applies to Super Strength damage? (Not for me, obviosly :) )

[thugit]

I think what would fix MOST of the "rules problems" would be for the judges to stop trying to look for loopholes, just so they can be the one to say "What about this? Can you do this?"


If people would just read the rules for what they say, and not what you can twist them into, the game would be less complicated.

[AlaskanXIII]

Actually, Thugit, most Judges do that because if we don't, our players almost certainly will, and we like to get as much clarification of the rules as possible. Blame the designers and the writers of the rulebooks for the loopholes, not the judges -- who are as a whole, just a group of people who want to encourage the game and make it as fun as possible.

[dougmac]

I guess I would understand how perplexing a group of hookers would really be if they were better lookin'...;)

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by thugit
I think what would fix MOST of the "rules problems" would be for the judges to stop trying to look for loopholes, just so they can be the one to say "What about this? Can you do this?"


If people would just read the rules for what they say, and not what you can twist them into, the game would be less complicated.

I think it is "rules laywer" players that look for the loopholes; judges do their best to anticpate their arguements . . .

[dougmac]

I guess I would understand how perplexing a group of hookers would really be if they were better lookin'...;)

[dougmac]

I guess I would understand how perplexing a group of hookers would really be if they were better lookin'...;)

[dougmac]

Sorry, guys! Just moving back and forth in my browser and got the blasted multiple posts!

[Cobalt Dragon]

Originally posted by Cell
I agree with you 110 percent. I think cheap Support is what should be eliminated from heroclix, and not cheap perplex. For a game that claims similarity to comics as an excuse for rule changes, cheap support is a blatant black eye. You dont see superman or Batman going to the local PHD for a checkup. Things like Paramedics, and Jane Fosters and DEO Agents with Support, should be gone. Support should only be given to high value characters like Sam Rey, and Silver Surfer.

I will partially agree with you about the cheap Support. You don't see the Heroes in the comics running to Paramedics and such. But usually the Support characters are very few in game play. I have seen (and expressed my disgust) at hordes of Con Artists. We had one guy come repeatly to a venue with a Sentinnel and 10+ Con Artists (we play 500 pt. builds). Another guy used a Nightcrawler with quite a few Con Artists. The "Rule of 3" kills these teams, thankfully. We instituted our House Rule for the "Rule of 3" a while back and it has worked great.

[Supes]

Yeah yeah... Superman doesn't run to a medic... he runs to Prof Hamilton... plus the sun heals him....

Of course I also don't see Black Panther or Deathstroke being able to hurt Superman either. Or allowing others to.

This rule helps put a cap on Perplex heavy teams and that's about it. I never played with more than 3 anyway.

Support should be given to people it makes sense to have. Jean Grey, Prof Xavier, Martian Manhunter... people who heal people in the comics. Doctors and such. They don't all have to be high point figures.

[JayThor]

daluvster- Super Strength boosts damage by 2. That means, a person using it can only be perlexed once, and another reason why CCE won't work with it (making a modification of +4).

[DaLuvster89]

Thanks, JayThor - that's about what I figured.
Take that, Doc Samson! :)

[Mjolnir]

While not completely happy with this decision(i would'ver preferred no stackable perplex) this is definitely a step in the correct direction. Now if we can just Wizkids to put the Ninja TUrles in the next IndyClix expansion(If there is one). :)

[ItsNotMe]

Of course I also don't see Black Panther or Deathstroke being able to hurt Superman either. Or allowing others to. I do. That's part of those characters schtick; they take on far stronger characters than themselves by virtue of being prepared and out thinking them. That kind of thing happens constantly in Superman's comics and constantly in comic books in general. It's a main stay of the superhero genre and not having it in Heroclix would be a major oversight.

[dude]

Sorry if this question has been asked before but with this 'rule of three' can you for example (assuming you have enough perplexers) preplex up the attack by three and then also perplex up the damage by three or does it limit you to only three perplexes no matter where you put them. Another example is if you had 3 Hydras around you and a perplexer could you use the 3 Hydras for the attack value boost and then perplex up your damage? I can't find any where in whats been posted that says you can't but my friend says you can only change your stats by three numbers so in the last example you could up your attack by 2 and your damage by 1 and that would give you three total. Thanks for your help

dude

[Mr. Pilkington]

Given the rule of three in other WK games, you will most likely be able to have a +3 modifier to each stat.

[admironheart]

Don't want to start a flame...but Black Panther deserves outwit:
{quote]
Of course I also don't see Black Panther or Deathstroke being able to hurt Superman either. Or allowing others to
[quote]
BP gave the Avengers his native Vibranium to defeat Ultron once and while Thor Distracted Graviton he used his genuis to free Iron Man and the Avengers from Gravitons powers.

Superman could not defeat those 2 monsters without some outwit of his own. Black Panther does allow the avengers to get the avantage or else he is caught and zzaapped ...which is pretty much how he is in heroclix too.


by the way...in the rare, rare, case when you perplex your own defense up by three can it then be increased by hindering terrain 'modifier' too??

seems they forgot about this one

just say no to stackable perplex!!!!!!!!!

wes

[FireLFighter]

U cannot perplex Ur own Defense, cause perplex ends with the beginning of next players turn... (actually U can, but it doesn't make sense)

[herosspirit]

Trying not to be negative but near red kryptonite..

Every day means a rule change. For more rule changes tune at the same bat time on the same bat channel tomorrow. :noid:

Maybe we should demand a rule of 3 as the number of rule
changes allowed per expansion to reduce number of changes by 500. :devious:

(pause for effect as red kryptonite was removed by Lois)

What just happened? :confused:

[littlebigguy]

Perplex should count as an action against your action total. That would really limit in sub 300 point games. That way you couldn't move then use perplex (or outwit) either - which is what really makes it difficult to over come.

[Batman1983]

Originally posted by thugit
Although that does kinda #### for HYDRA/PD teams. Oh well. I'm glad that Nightcrawler and Flash can no longer pound the stuffing out of Superman.


No more hooker bombs!!!!

actually in Marvel only there can't be a Hooker bomb as Kang, Blizzard, & Avalanche are no longer tourny leagal... The hooker however still is...

Yeah I skipped all the pages from page one so its probably already been said 4,5 or even 6 time already...

[DarkMalakim]

You're telling me that a Con Artist in that short skirt couldn't grab Supes attention for like two seconds, long enough for someone to hit him? Plus he has impervious, so it only hits him 66% of the time. I think that if it was to powerful, they should have left it out. You can still outwit perplex.

[ryan7107]

i agree with Mjolnir, this is good but it sort of seems like a cop-out. Just a convoluted way of telling us that stacking preplex is broken. Now just need to add the "subtract 2 from the roll" to support and change wildcard TA to only work for TA's that require more then one character of the same TA(i.e x-men,etc. but not batman,etc.).

[spider_ham]

Finally! Payback for all the times I fell victim to the Con Artist/Panther Combo, and the one unfortunate incident involving Pimp Daddy Galactus and the Cosmic Hooker 10!

[the itsy bit]

well..

Nightcrawler can still hit you for 5, Thor can still give you 7 damage.
:ermm:
so As long as perplex isn't stackable it only prevents people from using 10+ CA's on 1 fig, If he's using multiple good figs they can still all be perplexed up...:noid:

[JayThor]

Originally posted by Batman1983
actually in Marvel only there can't be a Hooker bomb as Kang, Blizzard, & Avalanche are no longer tourny leagal... The hooker however still is...

Yeah I skipped all the pages from page one so its probably already been said 4,5 or even 6 time already... Avalanche is still tourney legal. Clobberin Time is sold out, but still legal in restricted events.

[skletapocket]

This doesn't fix anything. The rule of 3 is terrible.

If you can admit perplex is broken, why can't you truly
fix it and make it non-stackable (rule of 1)?

[bakija]

skletapocket wrote:
>>This doesn't fix anything. The rule of 3 is terrible.
If you can admit perplex is broken, why can't you truly
fix it and make it non-stackable (rule of 1)?>>

You're talking crazy!

Oh, wait. Yeah. You are completely correct. But, see, "The Rule of Three" has a catchy name. And matches a rule in MageKnight, apparently, where this sort of thing is probably less of a problem anyway (but then, I"ve never played MK so I don't really know).

But if they realize that Perplex is enough of a problem to justify a fix, they should have actually fixed it.

-Peter

[Gentlegamer]

While we're at bringing rules in from other WK games, I nominate the rule of "no shooting into close combat" from Mage Knight to come over to HeroClix! WK needs to do something to tone down the advantage ranged combat has!

Actually, I don't really want that rule, but I do want some changes to put close combat and ranged combat at more of an even level . . .

[ItsNotMe]

You can shoot into close combat in Mage Knight, it's a just a bonus to the target's defense to do it. A rule I wouldn't mind seeing adopted but I feel no urgency to push for such a thing.

It's Mechwarrior that you can't shoot into close combat.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by ItsNotMe
You can shoot into close combat in Mage Knight, it's a just a bonus to the target's defense to do it. A rule I wouldn't mind seeing adopted but I feel no urgency to push for such a thing.

It's Mechwarrior that you can't shoot into close combat.

I stand corrected! The point is: the other WK games have a penalty for "shooting" into close combat. I think HeroClix could benefit for some rules to balance the usefulness of ranged and close combat. Right now, ranged combat is the undisputed king . . .

[N0S4A2]

Play tested alternate perplex rule:

Once during your opponent's turn you may use a figure with Perplex that is eligible for an action to cancel an action for which no roll has yet been made. Mark the perplexer with an action token, but do not apply pushing damage. The perplexed figure must now take a different action than originally declared.

This is more in line with how we view the comic actions of the figures with perplex. Smarts or guile changing the intended course of action. While the HC Perplex rule is a legit change to the game mechanic, this is a lot of fun...

Pax

[sengirv]

Originally posted by Cell
I agree with you 110 percent. I think cheap Support is what should be eliminated from heroclix, and not cheap perplex. For a game that claims similarity to comics as an excuse for rule changes, cheap support is a blatant black eye. You dont see superman or Batman going to the local PHD for a checkup. Things like Paramedics, and Jane Fosters and DEO Agents with Support, should be gone. Support should only be given to high value characters like Sam Rey, and Silver Surfer.

How many times have you seen figures "knocked out" during a battle to come back at the end to deliver the final blow? How do you mimic that in Heroclix? Give EVERY figure regeneration?

I believe that the GAME mechanic of going to get healed sufficiently handles this comic book feel. It's just that you have to be proactive in this healing process in the game versus having it done without your knowledge in the comics.

[Jack Squat]

Originally posted by sengirv
How many times have you seen figures "knocked out" during a battle to come back at the end to deliver the final blow? How do you mimic that in Heroclix? Give EVERY figure regeneration?

I believe that the GAME mechanic of going to get healed sufficiently handles this comic book feel. It's just that you have to be proactive in this healing process in the game versus having it done without your knowledge in the comics.

Wow, what an interesting idea -- what if a medic could bring a KO'd character back to one click of consciousness?

[Sazabi]

wow I never thought I'd say this but WK has done something very cool in my book!

the whole idea behind perplex enhancement and the 3 TA's in the game were to enhance multiple powers(range, speed, AV, DV, and yes damage). Rather than having 10-15 hookers to perplex damage of say a hydra medic to godly levels, you are now forced to bunp all it's stats up by 3(total) and lower the opponant's defense by 3.
Not to mention the fact that perplex and enhancement can be used now with the powers of RCE and CCE. all the more options for combat.

As The borg Queen once stated: "Stop being so 2 dimensional Picard..." Look for other ways that the powers can be used and don't focus on just the one that works best. Try some other ways guys the game is supposed to be fun, why ruin it when you dish out 10 clix damage via a peon piece to say that of Thor, or SoD, or even the Mighty Galactus????

Granted, the toughness of the names mentioned grew as I went, but....each of them is meant to be as tough as they are, they are that tough for a reason, to have that virtually null and void via a bunch of Ho's? seems a little cheap don't it? besides why use like 40 points of your force to "pay" for hookers? when you can use that 40 points to say put a more usable piece on the team; that maybe even has perplex or enhancement, or even a TA that does the same????? Variety is the Spice of Life....so change things up and try out the new rule b4 you knock it around

well I've ranted as long as I can I must head to work so I can get money to pay for this wonderful addiction I have called heroclix.

[BadAxe1]

Originally posted by the itsy bit
well..

Nightcrawler can still hit you for 5, Thor can still give you 7 damage.
:ermm:
so As long as perplex isn't stackable it only prevents people from using 10+ CA's on 1 fig, If he's using multiple good figs they can still all be perplexed up...:noid:

My thoughts exactly.:( :(

If they were gonna fix it then they should have REALLY fixed it!

[Diablo4485]

Well, another rule change. I'm always glad to see the game evolving (I'm about the only player in my area who welcomed Indy), but this far from solves the Perplex problem.

True, limiting the modification of a base value to 3 will do away with some of the more obscene strategies (i.e. Green Lantern giving a handful of SWATs and hookers a ride on the emerald party bus), but Perplex is still a substantial threat. There are plenty of Perplex-abusive teams at my local venue, including a Nightcrawler one consistently run by our judge for unofficial games, and none of them has any more than 3 hookers in the first place. Do I think it's cheating? No, the rules say you can do it. But do I think it's cheap? Yes. I strongly agree that adding no-stack would have been a better choice, but I'll gladly take this over having to face down a Nighty and his 20 mistresses.

A rule that I REALLY wish could be changed, though, concerns item placement. Once again, our judge pulls a cheap maneuver with this, putting all the items on the edge of the nearest building and then parking all his wildcards up there to shoot away. I'd think that rolling a D20 twice for each item (24 spaces across the map - 4 for each starting area) and putting them in the corresponding spaces would work much better. Then again, that's just me.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by ItsNotMe
You can shoot into close combat in Mage Knight, it's a just a bonus to the target's defense to do it. A rule I wouldn't mind seeing adopted but I feel no urgency to push for such a thing.

It's Mechwarrior that you can't shoot into close combat.

shooting into close combat has ONLY become part of MK since 2.0, so you are partially wrong.

............................................................
second: in MK there are NO such powers as perplex and outwit !
you do have pierce which can ignore Inv/Toughness/ESD, though invulnerability still counts for something !!

[megakilroy]

Question about the "rule of 3".... Say a fig has ESD and Super Strength and is holding the desk from the Indoor Adventure Pack. The desk can be used to give a +2 to defense. So does the "rule of 3" prevent you from using the desk for +2 to DV with the +2 from ESD? Or does it cap it and allow you to use the desk but only get an extra +1? Just a thought.

[FEGG]

Originally posted by sengirv
How many times have you seen figures "knocked out" during a battle to come back at the end to deliver the final blow? How do you mimic that in Heroclix? Give EVERY figure regeneration?

I believe that the GAME mechanic of going to get healed sufficiently handles this comic book feel. It's just that you have to be proactive in this healing process in the game versus having it done without your knowledge in the comics.

I'm going to agree with this in general. Medics may not be a part of comics, but I have no problem with them as a part of HeroClix.

BUT, I feel the Medic is overpowered to have the Support roll of 1-6 clicks of healing. It takes some of the best figs in the game, good BCF rolls, or figure combos (perplex, Enhance, etc) to do 5-6 clicks of damage to a piece, but an 8 point paramedic can heal 6 clicks on a good roll.

To leave the game mechanic, but lessen it's impact, how about a roll for Support that is the same as Regenerate, subtract 2, but then have a 1 minimum? Instead of a 3.5 click heal average, you'd get a 2 click heal average. Medics would tend to just keep figs around, or keep them useful, not so often completely heal them.

Maybe.

[Eric Rage]

Man...you're w/o a computer for a cpl. days and look what happens...

Eh. I've been clamoring for Perplex reform for quite awhile now, and this is definitely better than nothing, but I, too, would've loved a rule of one.

I play in three venues that have recently banned stacked Perplex, and it makes for a much more honest game. Players have to really earn their battles, not rely on bumping up the attack of the one powerful character on the board, usually a Sentinel or someone w/HSS, and then playing hit-and-run until anyone who can do any serious damage has at least been rendered combat ineffective.

As an aside, one of the places treats Support like Regeneration except that rolls of 1-3 all heal one click of damage. Works very nicely.

I still don't get all the opposition to rule changes. This game rocks, but it isn't perfect. Some rules still #### and need reworking, so they're reworked, and we learn the new ones. Where's the problem, kids?