Marvel/DC Battles: TEAM Tournament Of Champions Part 2: Round 1, Match 2

[DTM]

Well, looks like we got started off this time with a BANG, with so far Team Superman leading it out over Team Amazo. BUT, with EACH of these Round 1 battles still active and up for additional votes until the END of Round 1, ANYTHING can still happen.

Our next battle of this MIXED Universe Team Tournament is as follows:


Hitman, Deathstroke, Dr. Doom, Flash (Wally)

VS.

Nighthawk, Red Tornado (pre elemental), Thing, Captain Marvel (DC)


As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.

Randomly Chosen Area:


Mountain Forest - Large rocks/boulders, perhaps some mountain river/streams, plenty of trees, etc. (Mid sized river, large sized stream)


Thanks all, and enjoy.

And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.


TEAM TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS


ROUND 1

Team Superman VS. Team Amazo: Team Superman

Team Flash (Wally) VS. Team Captain Marvel (DC): ??????

[Manchine]

Hitman, Deathstroke, Dr. Doom, Flash (Wally)

[Horsehuntert]

DOOM!!!!!!!!!

[Gentlegamer]

Hitman, Deathstroke, Dr. Doom, Flash (Wally)

[Q99]

Ah, I gotta give it to Nighthawk's team (btw, who is Nighthawk?)

Marvel can take Flash, and RT is capable of helping him do so (general winds storms that lift Flash off his feet have proven to be moderately effective before, and he has minor superspeed). CM and RT Vs. Flash and Doom, I give it to CM and RT. More power, and Flash isn't going to listen to Doom very well, while Marvel and RT are both experianced heroes who know each other.

Thing certainly doesn't hurt. He can take on Hitman and Deathstroke at the same time without problem, and might distract Doom (since Doom knows he's a threat, but doesn't know how much CM and RT are).

[Prof. Aragorn]

Flash tells Doom about how fast he is, Doom finds a way to use that for himself (he may routinely carry what he routinely carries but that's still a lot) and he just pounds on the other team--who are they?
The only problems I see are Cap and Thing which Flash and Doom can handle especially since Doom hates anything related to Stretch. Flash can tie up Cap long enough for Doom to finish off thing and join in and help. Deathstroke can do a lot of stuff on his own too. Of course Red Tornado and Nighthawk put up a good front against Hitman and Deathstroke, especially in a mountain terrain, but Flash and Doom can easily help them out after they take the tough ones out.

[DTM]

BUT, Flash DOES know how powerful CM and RT are, and hell tell Doom in their 10 minutes planning session, and very few characters can plan as well as Doom. Big difference this tournament, cross universe characters helping one another out.

[Manchine]

What does Doom normally have on him? Thats gonna make a huge difference?

Does he have Chronal Deccelerator, Neuro-Neutralizer, or his Pain Inducers both located in his gauntlet.

What about Magic. He has been trained by Docter Strange himself.

He can even do a mind transfer for those who are not ready for that. Even if your told about this power this can still happen.

[ex0dus]

doom + flash = game over

flash team wins

[Q99]

BUT, Flash DOES know how powerful CM and RT are, and hell tell Doom in their 10 minutes planning session, and very few characters can plan as well as Doom. Big difference this tournament, cross universe characters helping one another out.

That's true.

I see RT being a lot more help in the heavy-end of the fight than Deathstroke is (his blast'll barely phase Thing or CM, whereas RT can mess up both Flash and Doom using winds and invisibility).

Team Nighthawk does have two fliers, both good fighters (one great), to Team Flash's Doom. RT is served much better helping out against Doom and Flash than mixing it up, while Nighthawk holds off (and probably gets his tail kicked in short order) Hitman and Deathstroke. It's RT that I think flips it, since it means they have 3 people helping against their opponent's class A people to the other side's 2, and one of those 3 is Captain Marvel. And again, Wally probably won't listen to Doom to the letter. They might be on the same team, but they won't get along.


On Mind Transfers: CM is highly resistant, being a magical being, and RT is an Android. That leaves taking over Thing or Nighthawk, neither of which are as good as Doom's body in this fight.

[Maniac_nmt]

Dr. Doom, even 10 minutes of planning is going to hurt.

Since Doom always acts nice to start when dealing with people before revealing his evil nature, Wally will trust him.

All shall bow before DOOM!

[EJS]

Team Doom

[KingBlackBolt]

Team Captain Marvel

[Rokk_Krinn]

Dr. Doom's team takes it (interesting how unlike the previous match we're not classifying the team name by the super-heavyweight :) ). Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Doom finds some way to tap into the Speed Force and rips off some wickedly fast attacks or spells.

Vote: Hitman, Deathstroke, Doom and Wally

[Rando]

Team Captain Marvel no questions asked.

Doom is a heck of a tactician, but he needs some machinery to truly use his mind to its full potential. Captain Marvel is also a great tactician and leader, he has the Wisdom of Solomon to gove him crib notes. Captain Marvel's team will also work together better, it is all heros while Doom has a SHV hero and a bunch of villans, I expect Doom will exude his evil nature (his personality tends to do that) which will make Wally leery of trusting him, and that is not gonna help team Flash. The real breaker here is that Wally West is a terrible Super Heavy Weight, Captain Marvel will destroy him easily, in fact Red Tornado can probably take him some of the time, wind is obnoxious for speedsters a cloud of dust and leaves will slow Wally a lot, he can't see where he is going, and if Marvel's medium handles doom's superheavy Marvel is free to rage on Doom. Nighthawk is also Squadron Supreme's Batman, he is a dangerous tactician. Deathstroke is cool, but Red Tornado is one of the best mediums in the tournament, that plus the bad SHW that Doom has to work with makes this a Captain Marvel victory a lot of the time.

[Laenan]

I was going top vote CM's team. But, after reaing through these posts, I really think Doom will take it.

[Grinner]

Doom's team has this one. Which it wouldn't look like at first glance.

At first look they're seriously overpowered - two powerful bricks, one with super-speed, a wildcard in RT and a cunning planner in Nighthawk, plus two fliers to one on Doom's team. A straight-up numbers game favors Doom's opponents. Heck, I'd probably be leaning their way if this was a straight POOF scenario.

But it isn't.

We've just given Dr. Doom ten minutes to plan just how to exploit his opponents weaknesses, to find out just what the Speed Force can do, to learn that Deathstroke's sword cuts through metal as easily as Wolverine's claws, to learn that Tommy Monaghan can read minds and to combine all of that with all the wonderful gadgets in his armor and his various spells.

Remember all the times that the argument for Wally not being as dangerous has been, "Wally wouldn't think of that?" He's got Victor Von Doom to do the thinking here - Wally's going to be much closer to his potential than he usually would be. This team - Wally's Speed Force combined with Doom's brains & armor, with Slade & Tommy to do mop-up, is going to be one of the hardest teams to deal with in the entire tournament.

Team Doom wins.

[MadHatter]

Doom is incredibly arrogant, but he can and will play nice with others when it works to his advantage. I forsee team Doom taking it here.

[chase_jyd]

With Hitman and Flash on his team, Doom has about the ultimate scouting set-up, and Deathstroke is no slouch at plotting either.
The other team puts up a good fight, but their top end of the scale is too much of the same thing... relying on strength. Sure, Cap has a lot more going for him than that, but its still of limited versatility.
Flash, Doom's array of weapons and magic, and the general ability they have here is just too much for Doom to use with a few minutes of prep time.

Wally, Doom, Deathstroke and Hitman, with Flash and Doom still standing at the end.

[VandalSavage]

I vote....Team Doom!!!

Mr. Savage

[DTM]

Guys, give the SHW his due, its TEAM FLASH here. :)

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Rando
The real breaker here is that Wally West is a terrible Super Heavy Weight, Captain Marvel will destroy him easily, in fact Red Tornado can probably take him some of the time, wind is obnoxious for speedsters a cloud of dust and leaves will slow Wally a lot, he can't see where he is going.

Now is it that you don't understand that this is Speed Force Wally, or that you haven't actually read any of the other posts about how scary-powerful Wally actually is at this level? ;)

With the Speed Force Wally can drain speed from his opponents (moving Cap back to normal instead of super-speed or turning any other member of Cap's team into a statue). He can lend speed to his allies - picture Wally doing 1/2 lightspeed while Hitman, Deathstroke and Doom can suddenly move at Quicksilver speeds. He can put himself into a hyperspeed state where everything in the arena that isn't super-sped is frozen like a statue. He can vibrate through RT (knowing that even if Reddy's android body get's broken Reddy won't be dead), causing it to explode. He can land punches that are hard enough to knock a Superman-class opponent from North Dakota to Africa.

Explain to me how Captain Marvel's going to destroy him "easily," and how he's a "terrible" super-heavyweight, considering that many people think that Wally has the potential to destroy Superman at full Speed Force capacity?

[Grinner]

Originally posted by DTM
Guys, give the SHW his due, its TEAM FLASH here. :)

Nah, let's give this team it's true due -

The Speed Force of Doom!!

[Manchine]

Doom is one of those people on the Verge of being a super heavyweight. He could almost beat Shazam by himself. He would lose in the end but still would be a nasty fight. Specially with the Chronal Deccelerator on Shazam which will make him move much slower!

[Gambit]

Glad to see my Wally West up there! Team Flash all the way!

[SteveRogers]

Originally posted by DTM
Guys, give the SHW his due, its TEAM FLASH here. :)

DTM is right! Wally is the leader of this team and actually can beat DC-Captain Marvel!

Team Flash will win this battle easily.

[Gentlegamer]

I see Deathstroke and Doctor Doom as having a terrific villainy synergy with their planning and intelligence. With Flash at their disposal, this line up may be unstoppable.

[DreadDormammu]

I'm voting for Team Marvel. I don't know Nighthawk or Hitman ( :ermm: ), but I think Captain Marvel is way tougher than anyone else on either of these teams. Outside Grant Morrison-land, Flash couldn't do tremendous damage to The Thing so I think Captain Marvel is safe to take out Dr. Doom first and then go after the Flash.

SHAZAM!

[Manchine]

Originally posted by SteveRogers
DTM is right! Wally is the leader of this team and actually can beat DC-Captain Marvel!

Team Flash will win this battle easily.

Actually this is Doom's Team. Doom would not have it any other way.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Manchine
Doom is one of those people on the Verge of being a super heavyweight. He could almost beat Shazam by himself. He would lose in the end but still would be a nasty fight.OMG! Can we have a tournament without any characters like Dr. Doom who have consistently insane fanboys? Without preparation, Dr. Doom would have a less than 1% success ratio against Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel moves so fast he could literally eliminate Doom before he had time to say "So says Doom!"

[DreadDormammu]

Oh, and for those who don't believe me: read Uncanny X-Men #147, in which Storm has Doom surrenduring after one attack in his own castle! Doom is not high-powered in direct conflict.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Oh, and for those who don't believe me: read Uncanny X-Men #147, in which Storm has Doom surrenduring after one attack in his own castle! Doom is not high-powered in direct conflict.

You'll pardon me if I don't take anything from an X-title as evidence . . . :p

[Ghost Ripper]

This is seriously loppsided, who in there right mind put Flash as a SHW. Captain Marvel is nigh invulnerable and very close to Supes level. Lets take this step by step. Who in the Doom team can actually hurt CM and Thing. I only know one and that is Doom. Doom is great, however, much like Reed without his lab Doom w/o his toys he'll never be able to defeat CM or even Thing, Esepcially working to together.

DeathStoke is good but wouldn't be able to do squat against Thing or CM so he's out.

I don't know hitman but if he's LW then i'll assume he can't affect Thing or CM. So, that leaves us with Flash and Doom.

Flash can't hurt the Thing or CM either as seen in JSA Dark Reign. The whole JSA couldn't take Black Adam and he's as powerful as CM. How do you explain this team of Doom's being able to beat CM? It's just unfathomable. Give credit where credit is do guys. This really shouldn't even be a contest. After CM and Thing take out Doom who's left that can hurt them? Also, Red Tornado I've heard is really powerful even more so than Vision, so that's like another Nail in the Coffin. I don't know anything about Night Hawk but come on guys this is over before it Began....

Team Captain Marvel.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Oh, and for those who don't believe me: read Uncanny X-Men #147, in which Storm has Doom surrenduring after one attack in his own castle! Doom is not high-powered in direct conflict.
Yet Doom is still alive, still evil, and deadlier an ever still in control of his country and still one of the most powerful characters in the marvel universe. Doom may have surrendered, but that doesn't mean Storm beat him. Doom always has a plan and things always seem to fall out to his terms (in most cases, his plans for world domination usually fail obviously).

[Grinner]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Oh, and for those who don't believe me: read Uncanny X-Men #147, in which Storm has Doom surrenduring after one attack in his own castle! Doom is not high-powered in direct conflict.

Didn't that end up being a Doombot?

[DreadDormammu]

Fine, read the Fantastic Four story in which non-Power Cosmic Terrax freezes Dr. Doom solid in one blast.

Why do you think Dr. Doom rarely engages people in direct combat? How many references from Fantastic Four do I need to convince you? I'll dig 'em up...

Dr. Doom does not have great power just standing around in his armor. His menace comes from schemes, devices, robot doubles, etc... Time and again he runs from heroes rather than confront them. He has no super powers, armor inferior to Iron Man's and is probably a Middle Weight in a scenario like this one.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Grinner
Didn't that end up being a Doombot? I think Byrne said it was a Doombot in a later FF issue, but that was not Claremont's intent. It is really hard to find instances of Doom actually fighting people. He just doesn't do it. He has no resources here except his teammates. He can be clever but he can't come up with new devices in this setting. He is stripped of 90% of his potency in these scenarios and yet people mindlessly chant DOOM DOOM DOOM.

Dr. Doom is one of the greatest comic villains of all time and the so-called fans dishonor him with their pathetic idealizations.

[Silver Lantern]

Not sure yet. You figure Doom will beat Thing fairly easy since he fights the entire FF usually. You'd think Red Tornado would whoop up on Deathstroke. I think CM can take Wally probably. Not sure about the lightweights. Someone help me decide here. I am leaning towards doom, but Shazam is a beating too.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
Yet Doom is still alive,True.
still evil,True.
and deadlier an ever still in control of his countryTrue.
and still one of the most powerful characters in the marvel universe.FALSE!!

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Grinner
Doom's team has this one. Which it wouldn't look like at first glance.

At first look they're seriously overpowered - two powerful bricks, one with super-speed, a wildcard in RT and a cunning planner in Nighthawk, plus two fliers to one on Doom's team. A straight-up numbers game favors Doom's opponents. Heck, I'd probably be leaning their way if this was a straight POOF scenario.

But it isn't.

We've just given Dr. Doom ten minutes to plan just how to exploit his opponents weaknesses, to find out just what the Speed Force can do, to learn that Deathstroke's sword cuts through metal as easily as Wolverine's claws, to learn that Tommy Monaghan can read minds and to combine all of that with all the wonderful gadgets in his armor and his various spells.

Man ya'll are talking about they have 10mintues to plan like they know who they are fighting. As far as i've seen DTM hasn't said they know who they are fighting. So, everyone is assuming this, and to assume makes a well you know how it goes. A *** out of you and ME! So, don't assume ask DTM first if that is right. Furthermore, Doom is being Given to much credit, he's powerful yes but not within 10min. time. If he could take out people of Superman Level with a 10min plan then how in the Marvel U does he always get beat by the same people he knows better than the back of his hand with strategies he's been thinking about for Hours upon Hours. Guys listen to the Voice of Reason. As, SPOCK would say it's simple LOGIC.

Remember all the times that the argument for Wally not being as dangerous has been, "Wally wouldn't think of that?" He's got Victor Von Doom to do the thinking here - Wally's going to be much closer to his potential than he usually would be. This team - Wally's Speed Force combined with Doom's brains & armor, with Slade & Tommy to do mop-up, is going to be one of the hardest teams to deal with in the entire tournament.

Team Doom wins.

[bluebeetle]

team flash!

[brendanbrown]

People are, however forgetting that he can use his genious mind to use flash's speed force tricks. Imagine their four adversaries frozen in place while he takes another ten minutes to formulate a plan to defeat them without even using deathstroke or hitman. Flash is just as powerfull or moreso than thing and CM if he is used to his potential, and if Doom cant figure it out than I'm sure deathstroke can.

Vote: Team Flash

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
DeathStoke is good but wouldn't be able to do squat against Thing or CM so he's out.

Deathstroke's sword cuts through metal like Wolverine's claws. Wolverine's claws can cut through Ben's hide. It is not an unreasonable conclusion that Slade's sword could do so as well.

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Flash can't hurt the Thing or CM either as seen in JSA Dark Reign. The whole JSA couldn't take Black Adam and he's as powerful as CM. How do you explain this team of Doom's being able to beat CM? It's just unfathomable. Give credit where credit is do guys.

Agreed - let's give credit where credit is due...a Speed-Force Wally West is more powerful, faster and has many more abilities than Jay. Saying "Jay couldn't do it so Wally can't" doesn't work.

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Also, Red Tornado I've heard is really powerful even more so than Vision,

That's the elemental Red Tornado, not the Red Tornado in this contest. Yes, Red Tornado isn't a pushover, but I'd take Vision over this version of RT 9 out of 10 times.

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
I don't know anything about Night Hawk but come on guys this is over before it Began....

Well, that depends on which Nighthawk we have. Is this the Squadron Supreme Nighthawk, who's a low-end Batman or is this the Defender Nighthawk?

I'd take Hitman over either of them. If he can hold his own against the real thing a lesser facsimile isn't going to beat him.

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Silver Lantern
Not sure yet. You figure Doom will beat Thing fairly easy since he fights the entire FF usually. You'd think Red Tornado would whoop up on Deathstroke. I think CM can take Wally probably. Not sure about the lightweights. Someone help me decide here. I am leaning towards doom, but Shazam is a beating too.

How in the World could Flash beat SHAZAM? That's like saying Flash could beat Superman. Face it guys this team got hosed when Flash became there SHW. It's not that I don't like Flash it just he can't hurt CM and neither could Doom, at least not with what he was poofed there with. 10mintues to take down Superman Caliber Foe without all the resources he's accustom too. However, if you give him Days upon Weeks to plan with every resource he has available he looses every time to the FF? HMmmmm.....does this even make since to any of you?

[Prof. Aragorn]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and still one of the most powerful characters in the marvel universe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FALSE!!
What I mean is, with planning Doom can be-he'll lose through sheer arrogance and being a villain, but Doom has the possiblity of being truly powerful. Granted someone like Galactus or the beyonder or Juggernaut, or Thor, or Silver Surfer would surely hand him his 'head' in a poof scenario.
However, Doom can easily influence people when he first meets them. He'll get Wally on his side and then start planning some schemes. Flash zips around and tells em' what's going on, Doom plans on taking on Thing, and has Wally get who is another powerhouse on that team. Meanwhile have Deathstroke and Hit man take on Nighthawk but lose to Red Tornado. By this time Doom has beaten thing and his aiding Flash in fighting Captain Marvel. Red Tornado will help but by now Doom's plan is set in motion and he whips out some gagdet he normally carries around that will greatly help. It wouldn't be a total slaughter by either side, but give Doom a speed force Wally and well, your doomed.

[petenliz9]

Capt. white bread for the win.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
OMG! Can we have a tournament without any characters like Dr. Doom who have consistently insane fanboys? Without preparation, Dr. Doom would have a less than 1% success ratio against Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel moves so fast he could literally eliminate Doom before he had time to say "So says Doom!"

Sorry Dread but this is one thing you dont know obviously. He is on the verge of being a super heavyweight. So please stop being a fanatic yourself. He has proven this time and time again. Just becuase you dont agree with it doesnt mean you have to be a fanatic.

[malger]

Team Flash is more powerful overall, I think Hitman, Deathstroke and Doom could take out Nighthawk, Red Tornado and Thing, while CM could probably take Flash, the real sticking point is I don't see Team Flash working to gether as a team particularly well, resulting in a Team CM victory.
TEAM CM

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Flash can't hurt the Thing or CM either as seen in JSA Dark Reign. The whole JSA couldn't take Black Adam and he's as powerful as CM. How do you explain this team of Doom's being able to beat CM? It's just unfathomable. Give credit where credit is do guys. This really shouldn't even be a contest. After CM and Thing take out Doom who's left that can hurt them? Also, Red Tornado I've heard is really powerful even more so than Vision, so that's like another Nail in the Coffin. I don't know anything about Night Hawk but come on guys this is over before it Began....

Team Captain Marvel.

The Red Tornado in this contest is pre-elemental.

The Flash in this contest is Speed Force Wally West, not Jay Garrick. Wally can do AMAZING things with the Speed Force, and with Doctor Doom and Deathstoke giving strategic and tactical advice, he may be unstoppable.

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Grinner
Deathstroke's sword cuts through metal like Wolverine's claws. Wolverine's claws can cut through Ben's hide. It is not an unreasonable conclusion that Slade's sword could do so as well.


First off, let's look at something? Does the Sword of Deathstoke's made of Adamantium? If not then you can't say it's as strong as Adamantium. It was stated many, many times that the forces and principles of physics were diffrent in the 2 universes. I hardly think that DS sword could penetrate the Thing's Rocky Hide. Also, if it did for the sake of argument he would catch the sword the next time and pull DS in for a Clobbern'time fist or a bearhug that would end Deathstroke.

Originally posted by Grinner


Agreed - let's give credit where credit is due...a Speed-Force Wally West is more powerful, faster and has many more abilities than Jay. Saying "Jay couldn't do it so Wally can't" doesn't work.


O...now wait let me get this correct you are saying that Flash could beat up Superman? I don't think so and CM is that level. If Flash is the be all you are trying to make him out to be then why doesn't he face super Titans like Dooms Day or Orion, Calaback, Darkseid? No, his foes were Boomerang Guy and Gorilla Grodd? Give me a Freaking Break dude.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
O...now wait let me get this correct you are saying that Flash could beat up Superman? I don't think so and CM is that level. If Flash is the be all you are trying to make him out to be then why doesn't he face super Titans like Dooms Day or Orion, Calaback, Darkseid? No, his foes were Boomerang Guy and Gorilla Grodd? Give me a Freaking Break dude.

I don't think you get how powerful Wally West really is when using the speed force. I'll let the more knowledgeable fill you in on the "power stunts" Wally can do with the speed force . . .

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
What I mean is, with planning Doom can be [one of the most powerful characters in the marvel universe]Almost right. Unfortunately he needs planning and access to equipment and machinery. Seriously. It's time to put up or shut up. I've given two examples off the top of my head of people way below Captain Marvel defeating Dr. Doom easily in direct combat.

When EXACTLY has Dr. Doom beat powerful foes in straight up fights without access to equipment beyond his armor?

[Gentlegamer]

Wally West evacuated 532,000 people from the South Korean city of Chongjin in .00001 microseconds to avoid the nuclear missle that destroyed the city . . .

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Gentlegamer
The Red Tornado in this contest is pre-elemental.

The Flash in this contest is Speed Force Wally West, not Jay Garrick. Wally can do AMAZING things with the Speed Force, and with Doctor Doom and Deathstoke giving strategic and tactical advice, he may be unstoppable.

Are you even reading what you are writing. So, by the people who think flash is so great with the help of Doom and Deathstroke, who by the way would have there hands full with the 'Ever Loveing Blue-Eyed Thing' could take down the JSA. By your Logic lets work the reasoning.

JSA Team Barely Defeats Black Adam.

To beat Black Adam you have to have A Sorcerer of DR. Fate's Caliber to Go back into time to block the Transformation.

Black Adam is Defeated by Captain Marvel most of the time.

Flash "Wally West", Dr. Doom w/o a lot of Gadgets and time, Hitman, and DeathStoke with 10mins. of planning could beat the JSA.

How in the name of any UNIVERSE could that happen?

Do the Logic it's right there for you.

[Gentlegamer]

Wally West's access to the speed force gives his team far longer than 10 minutes to prepare and plan . . .

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Gentlegamer
Wally West evacuated 532,000 people from the South Korean city of Chongjin in .00001 microseconds to avoid the nuclear missle that destroyed the city . . .

Yes great he is really powerful with the 'Speed Force' but can he beat Superman? No

Is Captain Marvel in the realm of Superman Level/ Power? Yes

Is Flash in the realm of Superman's Level/Power? No

Ergo...CM wins.

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Gentlegamer
Wally West's access to the speed force gives his team far longer than 10 minutes to prepare and plan . . .

He can access the speed Force so that gives him time to plan? How does that give the others time to plan? Doom can't tap into the Speed Force guys I don't care how Smart you are you aren't going to be able to shoot a lightining bolt out of your arse or run at almost Light Speed. The only people from what I know of Comics that have been able to tap into the Speed Force are very few. Also, isn't Superman almost as Fast as "Wally" and how fast is Capt. Marvel comparetively?

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Man ya'll are talking about they have 10mintues to plan like they know who they are fighting. As far as i've seen DTM hasn't said they know who they are fighting. So, everyone is assuming this, and to assume makes a well you know how it goes. A *** out of you and ME! So, don't assume ask DTM first if that is right.

Maybe we are talking about their planning like they know who they're fighting because DTM said they do?

From the round one thread -
Originally posted by DTM
Before the planning stage, each of the teams are notified who specifically they are fighting.

Now who is the *** again? ;)

[quote]Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Furthermore, Doom is being Given to much credit, he's powerful yes but not within 10min. time. If he could take out people of Superman Level with a 10min plan then how in the Marvel U does he always get beat by the same people he knows better than the back of his hand with strategies he's been thinking about for Hours upon Hours. Guys listen to the Voice of Reason. As, SPOCK would say it's simple LOGIC.

Well, let's see...how about because he doesn't have access to the Speed Force? Much like Wally isn't as big a threat in the DCU because he doesn't have Dr. Doom's cunning? ;)

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
First off, let's look at something? Does the Sword of Deathstoke's made of Adamantium? If not then you can't say it's as strong as Adamantium. It was stated many, many times that the forces and principles of physics were diffrent in the 2 universes. I hardly think that DS sword could penetrate the Thing's Rocky Hide. Also, if it did for the sake of argument he would catch the sword the next time and pull DS in for a Clobbern'time fist or a bearhug that would end Deathstroke.

Did I say it was Adamantium? No. Is it the mainstream DCU's equivolent? Yes. So it is not an unreasonable conclusion that a sword that can slice armor plate like butter could cut through rocks.

And I think you're seriously under-rating Slade's speed if you think Ben's casually grabbing him.

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
O...now wait let me get this correct you are saying that Flash could beat up Superman? I don't think so and CM is that level. If Flash is the be all you are trying to make him out to be then why doesn't he face super Titans like Dooms Day or Orion, Calaback, Darkseid? No, his foes were Boomerang Guy and Gorilla Grodd? Give me a Freaking Break dude.

I would suggest that you go back and read DTM's Heavyweight tournament. If you like I can even find the links for you. You will get a much better idea of Wally's potential there. Wally's biggest limits have always been himself, not his powers.

[KingBlackBolt]

Thing knows that doom is a threat so Im sure they would take him out first.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Manchine
Sorry Dread but this is one thing you dont know obviously. He is on the verge of being a super heavyweight. So please stop being a fanatic yourself. He has proven this time and time again. Just becuase you dont agree with it doesnt mean you have to be a fanatic. I'm not being fanatic, but I am asking for anyone to give me any example of this. Even one.

I have hundreds of issues of FF with many Dr. Doom appearances, I have several Doom appearances against Spider-Man and the X-Men, I have the Secret Wars mini-series. I don't know of one single time when Doom has beaten someone of high power level in a straight-up fight. I've already given two examples of him getting beaten in such a fight. I believe people are confusing Doom's schemes with his raw power level. And I know it happens... he almost beat Hal Jordan on votes in the original Contest. It's truly silly.

And as to him planning to use the Speed Force, he isn't teamed with Barry Allen. Wally West has often stated he doesn't understand how his powers work because, unlike Barry, he's not a scientist. He wouldn't be able to explain the Speed Force to Doom. Not to mention that Doom and Deathstroke are both notorious for not being teamwork oriented people.

[Q99]

I don't think you get how powerful Wally West really is when using the speed force. I'll let the more knowledgeable fill you in on the "power stunts" Wally can do with the speed force . . .

Indeed.

However, he still can't fly, and Marvel and Superman, other guys with super speed, even if not his level, can still hit him. Most of the 'power stunts' tend to take a ton out of him (he was visibly exausted after the city evac, for example).

[KingBlackBolt]

If the flash is this Bad A then why couldnt onlsaught be in this?

[KingBlackBolt]

Also what exactly can doom do since he doesnt have any gadgets he can create, just what he carries with him? He doesnt seem as effective without gadgets. He is just brains from the sounds of it. Maybe if doom could take thing out I would sway my vote but I dont see it happening.

[Q99]

Because (a) Flash is good, but he has to actively do these things. He's not constantly hyperspeeding his neck to see what's going on, he can be taken by surprise, and it takes a lot of effort to do some of them.

Captain Marvel doesn't have to know what's attacking him to be invunerable.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
He can access the speed Force so that gives him time to plan? How does that give the others time to plan? Doom can't tap into the Speed Force guys I don't care how Smart you are you aren't going to be able to shoot a lightining bolt out of your arse or run at almost Light Speed.

You aren't even reading what Wally can do with the Speed Force, are you? What part of "he can share his speed with others" was unclear?

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Is Captain Marvel in the realm of Superman Level/ Power? Yes

Is a White Martian in the realm of Superman Level/Power? Yes

Did Wally, all by his lonesome, knock one from North Dakota to Africa in one shot? Yes

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
To beat Black Adam you have to have A Sorcerer of DR. Fate's Caliber to Go back into time to block the Transformation.

Oh, you mean like Victor "I'm in Dr. Strange's ballpark" Von Doom?

[Ghost Ripper]

O.K. I've been trumped by FAN BOY FLASH #1. Excuse me for Stepping on your red Boots and bending your golden ankle wings. I'll go ahead and let you belive what you want. If you think Flash can take on Superman and Win or Captain Marvel and win, then I'll await the Day to see it in the Comic, for that's when it will be real and i'll humbly apologize. Otherwise run your mouth at the speed of light and make ludicrous and audacious remarks like Flash is basically the real Superman and thus far hasn't recieved the credit. Won't you Join me everyone and bow down to this guys great ideas of Flash being more Powerful than the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman, Martian ManHunter, DarkSide, and last but not least Captian Marvel. Now, that we have the devotion To your mighty FLASH GOD out of the way, how in the Totally Awesome world that you live in, does Flash ever get beat? Why does he have such low powered Villians? Shouldn't he have Villians to contend with like DarkSide or Doomsday? Wait were was Wally when Doomsday appeared? How come he didn't use that Super Speed Force to run over to Doomsday and Kick the crudd out of him? If it's becuase he's dead then, how come the Flash at the present day, who uses the Speed Force, didn't beat the Imperlix? Come on Flash FanBoy#1, why didn't Wally just man handle the Anti-Monitor one on one and kill him? Why would he use the Mask to make his followers attack him just so he could provide a distraction, when he is so powerful as you say he could have killed the Anti-Monitor with one "Speed Force" stoke? Come on dude Give me and all the other Comic Fans a break and get off your High of Flash GodHood.:grin:

[Grinner]

Originally posted by KingBlackBolt
If the flash is this Bad A then why couldnt onlsaught be in this?

Says the guy rooting for a Black Bolt who can use his voice :laugh: :laugh:

[Maniac_nmt]

shrug, in Spidey 350 Doom near atomizes our favorite radioactive spider without even trying.

He casually flips blasts at spidey putting almost no effort in it, and hammers him within an inch of his life.

Again, following the heros reborn line Doom goes mano a mano with thor, and so on.

Look, I can see you saying no, but there are reasons to see yes. He's battled Iron Man quite well in the past, and holds his own against him, and Iron Man is certainly at the very high end of the Heavy Weights. Of course that's not a totally fair comparison, but 'eh.

On Deathstroke/Thing, assuming this fight even happens, do you think Ben would easily grab Captain America? Would he just out and squash Steve? I seriously doubt it, and Slade is only the tinniest bit less then Steve (some would argue Slade is better). Slade will keep the Thing on his toes most of the time. He probably wouldn't win straight out, but he can certainly tie ben up for as long as anyone needs him to.

[Ghost Ripper]

Originally posted by Grinner
Y

Oh, you mean like Victor "I'm in Dr. Strange's ballpark" Von Doom?

Sorry, I don't think Ball Park is close enough, you are either there or you aren't. You are either in D&D a level 18 Mage or a level 20 Mage you aren't in the ballpark. There things you can do at Level 20 that you can't do at level 18. So it goes with Dr. Doom. There is only one Sorcer Supreme in all of Marvel and his name is Dr. Strange, not Dr. Doom and it would take a Dr. Strange to Do what Dr.Fate did, not a Dr.Doom.

[Q99]

Also, Wally can lend speed, but he doesn't normally just hyper-speed his team for the fight. He occasionally does it for specific tasks, but not as a general battle strategy.

Part of the reason being, because while he's lending it, his is reduced (and who he's getting it doesn't generally get it as fast as he does), and he has to focus on spending it, he can't really fight at the same time. And CM almost certainly knows this.

Hyperspeed Doom (assuming he can even convince Wally to do so) = a CM closing in and KO-ing a temporarily slower than CM flash (or Red Tornado going after him) = No Hyperspeed for anyone pretty soon. Unless Doom spends a lot of effort covering Flash (and remember, he wouldn't be faster than CM probably, just fast enough to be close).

That means hyper-Doom is fighting CM, who's still far stronger, and tougher, than Doom. It'd be like normal Doom fighting the Hulk strait up. He'll get his armor ripped open like a tin can. Hit & running? Ah ah, that would leave Flash exposed.


It can be done, but it's just not tactically wise since it's putting the eggs in one basket, a basket that's still not going to do very well against Captain Marvel (probably not as well as them fighting seperately).

[green_knight]

I would vote for Flash over practically anyone, he is THAT powerful.

BUT.

Guys like captiain cold and boomerang regularly give him trouble. So obviously power is not the only issue here.

I vote for Captain Marvel's team.

[KingBlackBolt]

Grinner, I dont have a problem with flash being this powerful, but I know someone tried to get onslaught in this and he got rejected for being too powerful. Plus if Flash can knock people from north dakota to africa there are going to be a lot of heros in trouble when its time to face him. I mean if he can do that then why not run around and take out all of the ground guys first? I mean if I was flash and doom said "what can you do?" I would respond knock you half way across the earth with minimal effort ya know? I didnt think I was going to do this but I have no choice, Team Flash for the win.:cry:

[KingBlackBolt]

Also I cant wait for black bolt to get up to bat with that nasty nuclear explosion yell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about nasty thats not even the only thing he can do. :laugh:

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
O.K. I've been trumped by FAN BOY FLASH #1. Excuse me for Stepping on your red Boots and bending your golden ankle wings. I'll go ahead and let you belive what you want. If you think Flash can take on Superman and Win or Captain Marvel and win, then I'll await the Day to see it in the Comic, for that's when it will be real and i'll humbly apologize. Otherwise run your mouth at the speed of light and make ludicrous and audacious remarks like Flash is basically the real Superman and thus far hasn't recieved the credit. Won't you Join me everyone and bow down to this guys great ideas of Flash being more Powerful than the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman, Martian ManHunter, DarkSide, and last but not least Captian Marvel. Now, that we have the devotion To your mighty FLASH GOD out of the way, how in the Totally Awesome world that you live in, does Flash ever get beat? Why does he have such low powered Villians? Shouldn't he have Villians to contend with like DarkSide or Doomsday? Wait were was Wally when Doomsday appeared? How come he didn't use that Super Speed Force to run over to Doomsday and Kick the crudd out of him? If it's becuase he's dead then, how come the Flash at the present day, who uses the Speed Force, didn't beat the Imperlix? Come on Flash FanBoy#1, why didn't Wally just man handle the Anti-Monitor one on one and kill him? Why would he use the Mask to make his followers attack him just so he could provide a distraction, when he is so powerful as you say he could have killed the Anti-Monitor with one "Speed Force" stoke? Come on dude Give me and all the other Comic Fans a break and get off your High of Flash GodHood.:grin:

Okay, GR, take a nice, deep breath, count to ten, switch to de-caf and then come back and I'll explain some of this to you.

Most of the things you listed for Wally to do (like Anti-Monitor and Doomsday) were before Mark Waid brought in the whole "Speed Force" thing.

And the others? Well, Wally's a goob. :p No, seriously. Given half of the things he's done and can do he could be darn near undefeatable by 90% of the characters in the DCU. But he doesn't think that way. He's the ultimate "normal guy with powers."

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Grinner
Is a White Martian in the realm of Superman Level/Power? Yes

Did Wally, all by his lonesome, knock one from North Dakota to Africa in one shot? YesEveryone is more powerful in Grant Morrison comics. I am pretty certain that was an anomaly. Has any other writer ever made him that powerful? Even Morrison presented Flash as much weaker than that in every other JLA story he wrote.

Oh, you mean like Victor "I'm in Dr. Strange's ballpark" Von Doom? And where does this come from? I think you mean Victor "I'm in Ilyana Rasputin's ballpark" von Doom. Dr. Doom is not a master sorcerer. He has minor magical knowledge and knows a few spells unless he has changed a LOT in the last few years.

[hawkeye2831]

I vote team Doom.Hello Deathstroke+Doom.


BOW BEFORE DOOOOOOOM!

[proditor]

The decider to me is the 10 minutes. My inital thought was that Wally and the boys were going to get slaughtered. But 10 minutes is a lifetime when you have Doom and Slade to do your tactical planning. Example:

Fight starts and Plan "BOW BEFORE DOOM!!!" (Pat Pending) goes into effect.

Flash taps the speed force and drains the opposing team. The remainder of Team Flash start to move into action, covering the ground quickly to get to their almost frozen enemies. Flash now imparts that leeched speed to his team-mates. They all start moving like old school quicksilver and lay down a viscious attack. Flash kicks it into high gear and circles the planet at superluminal speed. Once he finishes this trip, a millisecond or so later, he hits Captain Marvel with the full force of a density increased, superluminal punch. This /at least/ staggers CM long enough for his sped up comrades to drop their enemies, and then all 4 members unleash on the continually speed drained marvel until he falls.

Flash is the lynchpin, but it is the Plan that means the CM team falls like tenpins.

My vote: Team Flash

[Rokk_Krinn]

Dr. Doom had his training furthered by Dr. Strange by order of the Vishanti after Doom came in second - and came dangerously close - to defeating Strange for title of "Sorceror Supreme". Doom's wish that the victorious Strange had to grant was that Strange aid Doom in rescuing Doom's mother from Mephisto. Part of the strategy for that entailed teaching Doom a _lot_ more magic and, for the record, Doom did prevail. This, by the way, is taking into consideration normal armoured Doom and not the mega-sorceror clad in human skin that's recently been running around in the pages of Fantastic Four.

Your arguement that Doom is weak, because he fails to regularly beat the FF, surprises me considering how hard you're supporting Ronan over in the first match based on Ronan's ability to fight the whole FF at once. I'm pretty sure Ronan hasn't been any more successful than Doom. Does that mean Ronan is just a middleweight? :)

About the times Storm has defeated Doom at least one of those occasions was when she had flipped out into "goddess" mode after her claustrophobia went bonkers. Doom decided he could keep fighting her and watch his castle destroyed and his land scoured in the process or he could let Storm and the X-Men go. Considering he also has a certain respect (okay, and lust :) ) for Ororo he decided on the latter. He had already defeated Piotr, Kurt and Logan - not an insignificant achievement.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Captain Marvel, by the way, hasn't always been the best at resisting mental attacks (e.g.: Mister Mind or his possession by Gluttony of the Seven Deadlies). Not altogether certain he could resist the Ovoid Mind Exchange power Doom uses and I'm definitely thinking if Doom succeeds that things get _very_ scary (possibly for both teams :) ).

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
About the times Storm has defeated Doom at least one of those occasions was when she had flipped out into "goddess" mode after her claustrophobia went bonkers. Doom decided he could keep fighting her and watch his castle destroyed and his land scoured in the process or he could let Storm and the X-Men go.This is inaccurate. What actually happened is she hit him with one lightning bolt and his thought balloon said (paraphrased), "I can only take one more shot like that." And "goddess" mode wasn't an actual transformation, it was just that she was fighting no holds barred.

Also, I don't think Doom does the mind exchange except in times of extreme emergency. It's certainly not a battle tactic.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Dr. Doom had his training furthered by Dr. Strange by order of the Vishanti after Doom came in second - and came dangerously close - to defeating Strange for title of "Sorceror Supreme".Fair enough. I hadn't read this story... this is what I mean when I ask for examples because I don't have any (out of 10,000 odd comics) issues with him being this powerful.

Now I remember why I don't read non-Ultimate Marvel anymore. :p

[EVIL CAP]

Black Adams speed gave out around Mach 500 a brisk pace for the slower Jay Garrick let alone Wally and he didnt "Whip" the JSA he survived and was battered bloody and ready to be taken down by Hawkman with a Mace provided by Green Lantern [who barring a tree in the chest could take him down himself eventually]

Anyways Doom Deathstroke and Wally workign together could accomplish some seriously sickeningly powerful feats

1 Wally steals the opposing teams speed reducing them to a snails pace
2 Deathstroke hands Wally his particulaly killer sword who then places it in someone forehead at light speed
3 Wally vibrates out their brains barehanded
4 Doom use his near Dr.Strange level magic to counter CMs transformation then wally zips in and punches out a 15 year old
5 Doom kit bashes a device to rip away CMs power maybe even tearing his armor apart to do it and has Wally Construct/Place it in an eyeblink

These are all the most out there rediculous limits of what these characters are capable of but usually dont do for "Balance"

A real match-up without all the uber-level overwritting Doom has the resources to take out the majority of the team the time he needs and an excellent set of people to ensure it.They take down the entire opposng team fairly quick and leave Captain Marvel.Captain Marvel aka The Big Red Cheese aka Shazam aka Superman without weaknesses for Batman to exploit then holds his own against the entire team even frustrating some of Dooms most well thought out plans[Wisdom of Solomon and all] before he is simply worn down and eventually one of them works

[VandalSavage]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu

And where does this come from? I think you mean Victor "I'm in Ilyana Rasputin's ballpark" von Doom. Dr. Doom is not a master sorcerer. He has minor magical knowledge and knows a few spells unless he has changed a LOT in the last few years.


Doom is a LOT more Powerful in Magic in last few years...He had given up Technology in general and went for Magic User the last year or so....


Mr. Savage

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Fair enough. I hadn't read this story... this is what I mean when I ask for examples because I don't have any (out of 10,000 odd comics) issues with him being this powerful.

Now I remember why I don't read non-Ultimate Marvel anymore. :p

It was an outstanding graphic novel (old format oversized book GN) called "Triumph and Torment". I recommend it to fans of either Strange or Doom. Written by Stern with art by Mike Mignola it came out around 1989.

I imagine part of the reason his magical abilities aren't used as much in FF (barring the recent storyline) is because the FF is a more sci-fi based title. Originally Doom used his magic and mind-switch as much as his super science as it created a nice dichotomy and an interesting flip from Reed. Over the years that changed and it just became increasingly easy for a writer to say, "Doombot did it!". :)

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
This is inaccurate. What actually happened is she hit him with one lightning bolt and his thought balloon said (paraphrased), "I can only take one more shot like that." And "goddess" mode wasn't an actual transformation, it was just that she was fighting no holds barred.

Also, I don't think Doom does the mind exchange except in times of extreme emergency. It's certainly not a battle tactic.

I wasn't saying "goddess mode" was a transformation. It was, however, Ororo in a fairly insane rage (no holds barred as you put it, or as I'd put it: she had no mental blocks or barriers to put any restraints on her powers - she was acting at a power level far higher than she normally showed at the time).

As for the mindswitch, while he does sometimes use it more for trickery (trading places with Richards in one of the earliest uses of the power) or escape plans (such as the big Silver Surfer battle), he has used it as a combat tactic, especially recently in the Waid run when he kept body hopping until he could force Reed to kill the Thing.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
2 Deathstroke hands Wally his particulaly killer sword who then places it in someone forehead at light speed
3 Wally vibrates out their brains barehanded
4 Doom use his near Dr.Strange level magic to counter CMs transformation then wally zips in and punches out a 15 year oldI think you forgot the part where DTM said they would fight "in character"... Wally is not going to be murdering people. :rolleyes:
5 Doom kit bashes a device to rip away CMs power maybe even tearing his armor apart to do itUsing coconuts and pebbles? And since when can a device rip away CM's power?!

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Originally Doom used his magic and mind-switch as much as his super science as it created a nice dichotomy and an interesting flip from Reed.Hm, I don't remember that from the first 50ish issues of FF. I guess I'll reread them.

[KingBlackBolt]

Yeah I dont think Doom knows the specifics of the transformation or what exactly occurs when he changes and how to reverse it.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Hm, I don't remember that from the first 50ish issues of FF. I guess I'll reread them.

You mean like Doom's first appearance where he sent the FF (sans Susan) back in time to steal the treasure of Blackbeard so he could invoke some magic ritual with some gems? :)

I think it was also in the first fifty-issues that we saw Doom trade places with Reed for the first time, purely to try and manipulate the FF.

They're great rereads though. I certainly don't recommend _not_ rereading them. :)

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Using coconuts and pebbles? And since when can a device rip away CM's power?!

Black Barax used a device to short circuit the magical lighting that courses through Captain Marvel's and Black Adam's veins, effectively paralizying them.

I think it is well within Doctor Doom's expertise to devise such a thing . . .

[Gentlegamer]

Originally posted by Ghost Ripper
Come on Flash FanBoy#1, why didn't Wally just man handle the Anti-Monitor one on one and kill him? Why would he use the Mask to make his followers attack him just so he could provide a distraction, when he is so powerful as you say he could have killed the Anti-Monitor with one "Speed Force" stoke?

During the Crisis on Infinite Earths, the Flash that faced off against Anti-Monitor was Barry Allen, not Wally West. Wally West at the time was Kid Flash.

And I think the fact that Anti-Monitor captured Barry Allen FIRST as a pre-emptive strike to eliminate the threat that was greatest to him says a lot about the power of the DC Universe Flash (speedster) characters . . .

[Rando]

Flash is a weak SHW beacause all of his truly powerful uses of the speed force are either impossible or abberant. I refuse to accept that one time in New World Order where Flash increased his mass by approaching lightspeed as some kind if benchmark for Wally West being able to smash invulnerable people, for one thing this was, as DD has already pointed out an abberant occurance based upon Grant Morrison using unreasonable stretches of a chracters powers, to my knowledge Wally has never done this before or since. In addition once he delivered that hit the increased mass should have still been present, yet it wasn't, this was left totally unexplained, in addition to that when you hit someone you suffer resistance, that is why it hurts to punch someone and why boxers where gloves, Wally's super speed increased his physcial resitance not at all if he hit someone so hard that it would send them flying across the plant it would break every bone in Flash's body. In closing I do not accept this single instance as any kind of resanable evidence of FLash's anymore than I accept that cossover where Venom whooped superman due to the improbability and impossibilty of the event in question. Similarly the time Flash emptied that city before the bomb exploded on it is similarly impossible becasue well over 50% of America is overweight, numerous persons in any American city are simply to heavy for Wally West to lift no matter how fast he goes, so again I don't accept this impossible event as representative.

In addition just because Wally has doom there does not necessarily increase Wally's effectiveness dramtically, Wally must be able to adequetly communicate the limits and possibilities of the speed force to Doom for Doom to think of ways to use the speed force to extreme advantage, since Wally does not really understand all the nuances of the Speed Force he will not be able to communicate them to doom, and Doom will have to come up with ploys to use this totally alien force in very little time.

Flash cannot just steal speed by snapping his fingers, stealing someone's speed is a complicated process it will be very difficult for Flash to steal Marvel's speed, especially with the wisdom of Soloman advising Marvel on how to avoid having this happen.

Letting his team borrow his speed would be highly disruptive to most of team Flash, when Flash lent his speed to Aquamn for only a few moments Aquaman almost crashed into a building he only didn't because Wally screamed fro him to stop, the 4 people on Flash's team cannot be expected to operate with lent superspeed in any kind of reasonably effective fashion in a highly cluttered environment, especially if Red Tornado lowers their visibility by blowing yp all kinds of debris.

Wally's normal speed levels are only slightly below that at which Captain Marvel can operate, and the wisdom of Soloman will certainly advise Marvel to use his speed to counter Flashes, so u have a slight speed advantage and vibration tricks supposed to counter near Superman strength and durability, continual high end tactical advice, and true flight. Marvel should beat Flash easily and in very little time.

In Infinity Crusade Gamora can be noted to remark that she could not have attacked Thing without Sasquatch distracting him, Gamora was nominated for the middles but voted to be too strong, Deathstroke failed to win the lightwieght tournament, Thing should be able to fight Deathstroke for a considerable period and probably win.

Flash (or duplicates thereof) have been taken out by the likes of The Key, Green Arrow, and standard issue army landmines, he cannot be expected to be the deciding factor in a battle against someone who is near Superman. Flash has amazing potential, but Doom has no more way to figure out how to make him unlock it in 10 minutes or so than Steel, or Ray Palmer, or Batman have had in the years that they have known Wally, especially with only having the information that Wally can impart verbally as something to work with.

[Perfectstorm]

Give it to wallys team. They win every fight except flash vs Marvel, but Flash could instead take out the light, and the middle wiehgts, while Doom starts planning, blasting, and working on a more effective way to beat Marvel, and Hit man and deathstroke and flash could keep him busy, possibly even take him down if Flash tries the Stroke attack

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Rando
Flash is a weak SHW beacause all of his truly powerful uses of the speed force are either impossible or abberant. I refuse to accept that one time in New World Order where Flash increased his mass by approaching lightspeed as some kind if benchmark for Wally West being able to smash invulnerable people, for one thing this was, as DD has already pointed out an abberant occurance based upon Grant Morrison using unreasonable stretches of a chracters powers, to my knowledge Wally has never done this before or since. In addition once he delivered that hit the increased mass should have still been present, yet it wasn't, this was left totally unexplained, in addition to that when you hit someone you suffer resistance, that is why it hurts to punch someone and why boxers where gloves, Wally's super speed increased his physcial resitance not at all if he hit someone so hard that it would send them flying across the plant it would break every bone in Flash's body. In closing I do not accept this single instance as any kind of resanable evidence of FLash's anymore than I accept that cossover where Venom whooped superman due to the improbability and impossibilty of the event in question. Similarly the time Flash emptied that city before the bomb exploded on it is similarly impossible becasue well over 50% of America is overweight, numerous persons in any American city are simply to heavy for Wally West to lift no matter how fast he goes, so again I don't accept this impossible event as representative.

So you'll accept that he can go the speed of light, but won't accept the other parts? :laugh:

Using the laws of physics to say any of the Flashes cannot do something is completely contradictory to their powers. Part of the abilities of the Flashes, all the way back to Jay in the Golden Age, is that the laws of physics do not apply to them like they do to normal people. As science has advanced, their interaction with the laws of physics have become more and more optional. Speed-force powered speedsters (especially Barry & Wally) can pretty much pick and choose what laws do and don't apply. Which is why Barry with actual Speed Force powers would be scary beyond belief.

As for "emptying the city," it was a Korean city, not an American city, so we're not looking at 50% overweight ;) Not that this would be a problem, as Wally could move very large people using his speed back when he topped out around Mach 1.

[dj_sha]

While team Doom is really strong, they lack the big power house to take on Shazam. From what I know of Nighthawk, he should be able to take out Hitman (which looks like a poor mans Batman vs. Punisher), but both will end up insignificant in the fight. Deathstroke will go down fast by being blown towards a big rocky fist from Thing, as Deathstroke is a tactical genius and powerful fighter, he's really not much of a threat in the middle class (should've stayed in the lower class). Captain Marvel has the strength and speed to take out Doom, and RT can blow Wally right of the ground and into Captain Marvel's fist. At first glance Doom's team may look intimidating, but Captain Marvel's team is just too much for them.


My vote: Nighthawk, Red Tornado, Thing, and Captain Marvel (DC)

[Cryomancer]

ok, now that the arguements are getting a bit vicious....
I still vote for Team Flash/Doom

[Q99]

I can see Superman winning the last one, but this one I'm not seeing the Flash side as much. Sure, Flash could do most of those things, but he rarely does, Capt isn't going to fall for any of them easily (he's a flier so doesn't have to touch the ground to become open to a supermass attack, and has superspeed of his own that at least allows him to keep pace at Flash's normal levels, ala Black Adam's and Jay's sonic fistfight), and has help that can actually be useful against Superspeed. And Flash rarely does those things to begin with.

Also, on the teamwork side of things, I just don't see Wally and Doom getting together too well. Their attitudes clash strongly, Flash isn't as likely to want to listen to a megalomaniac, and Doom isn't going to have it any other ways. They may fight together, but they're not going to immediately start on a plan, and if they do have a plan, Wally's likely to deviate it if he sees a chance to do something he'd think is better or to help a teammate in trouble (which Doom would not do, plan for, or like). I see those two getting together like oil and water and a match. Or maybe sodium and water.

Physically, they're capable of winning, but it'd require Flash using a lot more Speed force tricks than he does against actual supervillains, and they're just not going to click very well, while they're facing a team that almost certainly will (Red Tornado'll defer to Marvel in a second, and Whitebread and Grimm'd get together great) and is fairly well suited to fighting them. Heck, they have one of the Fantastic Four to give a Superman-level fighter advice on how to deal with Doom. If there's some better way to not underestimate their opponent, I'd be surprised.

[Rando]

The Speed Force only allows speedsters to defy laws of physics specifically related to velocity, for instance Flash can decide that he will not increase his mass as he approaches light speed, thereby allowing him to actually reach the speed of light. The speed force is not just a catchall that allows one to defy all scientific concepts. Wally can't for instance decide that he doesn't want gravity to affect him the same way and thus start flying around, or think that he isn't really interested in ever being hurt and so therefore decide that no kinetic energy can affect him anymore, or any other of the numerous scientific principals entrenched in the examples that are not realted to super velocity. If what you claim were actually reprenstative then Wally would regularly be able to fly, be absolutely impervious to harm, be able to hit anyone with infinte amounts of force, and do numerous other things I can't even conceive of. This is obviously not the case as the vast majority of Flash's apperances do not portray him doing anything like this. Doom is an incredible scinetist, but with not very much prepreration time, very limited technology, and a poor source of information he cannot be expected to get Wally to operate well beyond what DC's own super scientists like Ray Palmer and John Henry Irons can get Wally to operate at, which is the level Wally is typically portrayed at. And Wally operationg within the realm of normalcy is absolutely no match at all for Captain Marvel he is possibly not even a match for Red Tornado, who has a power that is specifically strong against speedsters.

[Caelcor]

I have a bunch of arguments stored up for when I have more time, but for now all I can do is vote: Team Flash/Doom. And it probably isn't overly close, either.

<flees the room before a throng of angry Captain Marvel supporters tears him to shreds...>

[Sgt.Hatch]

captain marvel's team

[SilverAgeFlash]

10 mins with Doom and Deathstroke is 9 mins to much
After they put their heads together with Flashs limitless potential its gona be a tough match for their opponents

the plan
step 1 Flash takes speed from CM and Gives it to Doom This allows doom to track CM
Step 2 Doom body switches with CM( who seems to get MCed atlot)
step 3 Flash returns speed to normal and confuces the now 15 year old in dooms armor. Doom KO's CM team who was fighting with slade and hitman with SHAZAMS powers.
step 4 doom says SHAZAM and changes back to BB. Then Flash does speed trick from step 1 agian.
Step 5 Doom switches back (maybe:devious: ) leaving Billy batson mid SHAZ.. owww my face as flash hits him in the nose for the KO
Team Doom... i mean flash wins

[dj_sha]

Here's how I see the fight happening:

The fight begins with Flash moving up to scout the other team and running back (not risking confrontation since Captain Marvel could pick him off). He tells Doom the line up and Doom begins to think up some strategies. Deathstroke and Hitman move down the mountain into some trees and stealth.

Meanwhile on the other side, Captain Marvel feels the strong breeze and realizes that their up agianst the Flash. He soars up overhead to scout the other team and comes back. Thing recognizes Doom and tells Marvel how to deal with him and that he's quite dangerous. Nighthawk moves up into stealth and Red Tornado flies overhead.

Deathstroke and Hitman ambush Nighthawk, taking him out. But not before Nighthawk cries for help. RT hears this and swoops down, sending a gust of wind to knock Hitman and Deathstroke right next to Thing and Captain Marvel, taking them both out of the fight in a couple hits. Doom sees RT and blasts him, knocking him down, but not out. Flash moves up to finish him off, but CM cuts him off, landing a small blow. Thing begins to lumber up.

RT brings some wind up to blow Flash off the ground, enabling CM to fly up and smack him down back to the earth, KO'ing him. Doom flies over and blasts what's left of RT and shoots at CM. Thing charges up and attacks Doom, landing a solid hit. Doom flies up and blasts Thing. This leaves him open to CM, and Doom is soon knocked out of the fight by CM.

In the end, it's going to be RT's wind powers and CM's, well, all around powers that will win the fight. Also take into account that Wally has done battle with Deathstroke before and the two are not buddies, and he would not be very fond of Doom. With the personalities clashing, Doom and Slade would not be able to give out so many "limitless possibilites" ideas.

[thugit]

Team Captain Marvel.


Marvel can win this one pretty much by himself. No one can ever convince me that Doom can stand up to Shazam. There's no magic weakness like people like to bring up with Superman, Flash can't fly, so he can't stop Shazam.

Batson and company win this one decisively.

[gladiator1518]

Team Captain Marvel wins easily. The idea that Flash can defeat a Superman level foe has got to be one of the most insane things I've ever heard. What's the world coming to?! :eek:

[SilverAgeFlash]

But this flash can do pretty much anything. He just rarely thinks of it. With Doom and Slade "addising" him on what to do i dont even want to think about what the possibilties are.

[UXMGambit]

Lets break it down here:

Hitman beats Nighthawk

Deathstroke beats Red Tornado

From range Doom fro close up thing--

Flash can out race Captain Marvel to a braking point and beat the snot out of him when he is down.

So team Wally wins it!

[Maniac_nmt]

flash in all likely hood won't KO Captain Marvel (okay, won't).

But, and this is the biggy, he can keep him busy enough for the other to win.

Doom will beat ben 9 times out of 10. Deathstroke and hitman will be able to crack Red T's shell, or with a little help from doom it's a natch.

Wally keeps CM busy, drain a little speed here, a little there, but just keep him interested. Then once it's all of them vs CM, then they'll beat him. Now #### as much speed out as you can, let doom open with a massive barrage to stagger CM, then let Slade dance with a slowed, and weakend Captain Marvel for a bit, swap off with Wally pounding on him, and then back to Doom for the Coup de Grace.

Captain Marvel is a beast, no two ways about it, but against four foes he'll be hard pressed. He can stay in it, or he wouldn't be a SHW.

Still, what's to keep Doom from jurry rigging something out of Red T after he's down and using it against CM.

(I'm not keen on the mind swapping stuff, but hey, I don't read the most modern ff so...)

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by SilverAgeFlash
But this flash can do pretty much anything. Except fly. :classic:

[thugit]

Originally posted by Grinner

Is a White Martian in the realm of Superman Level/Power? Yes

Did Wally, all by his lonesome, knock one from North Dakota to Africa in one shot? Yes


He sure did. An arrogant, somewhat foolish Martian, who was STANDING ON THE GROUND. Captain Marvel is more equipped to deal with the Flash than Flash is to deal with Marvel.


I honestly don't see anyone here posing any serious threat to Captain Marvel. Without LENGTHY planning, and plenty of armor/gadgets/weapons, Doom can't fight someone like Captain Marvel.

Some of you aren't being honest about what Doom can and can't do. He can't order Flash to teach him the tricks of the speed force and then duke it out with Captain Marvel. That's possibly the most ludicrous thing I've read on any of the vs. threads so far.


What can Deathstroke do to Captain Marvel? Get slapped around, that's what. He can't fly, he can't hurt Marvel. Flash can't fly, and a character with the wisdom of Solomon isn't going to stand around waiting for Flash to run around the world and hit him in the face. Doom is out before he even knows what's going on. Even if Marvel lost everyone else on his team, he would still win this one.

[SilverAgeFlash]

Doom can thats more than enough

[thugit]

Originally posted by SilverAgeFlash
Doom can thats more than enough



What can Doom do to hurt Marvel?

Flash won't be able to hurt Marvel, as Marvel isn't likely to be on the ground.

Doom can't just learn the intricacies of the speed force in 10 minutes. That's absolute, pure nonsense. It took Wally quite a while to learn the in's and out's.





As bad as Batman fanboys are, it seems that Doom fanboys are worse. :confused:

[SilverAgeFlash]

Doom knocked out before he knows whats goin on unlikely.
Flash is Faster than CM by quite a bit with the speed force.
So he could intercept CM on His one hit Ko superspeed attack and reduce him to a crawl at where Doom could see him laugh and shot him ALOT. A slowed CM is gona get Mobbed horrible style. If doom knows what CM is capable of before hand ( and he does thanks to flash) HE knows he is the first priority.

[thugit]

Originally posted by SilverAgeFlash
Doom knocked out before he knows whats goin on unlikely.
Flash is Faster than CM by quite a bit with the speed force.
So he could intercept CM on His one hit Ko superspeed attack and reduce him to a crawl


How is Flash going to intercept a flying Captain Marvel?

[SilverAgeFlash]

Doom doesnt use the speed force he has speed lent to him by flash. Speed that flash stole from CM.

[SilverAgeFlash]

Flash isnt punching him he is using the speed force to remove speed.

[pangea]

team Captain marvel for the win. I'm not a huge doom fan for these tournaments, he's a STRATEGIC thinker, not a TACTICAL one. Which is why he's a heavyweight in this. Without the overwhelming influence some people think he has (Not saying he can't I have just never seen a comic book where he has, his power is usually inferred, implied and often stolen. As for the SWH's I tentatively put marvel over wally(don't know them detailed enough to be sure)

[Maniac_nmt]

okay, here's something for people who know CM and flash a lot better then I do.

How long does it take Flash to absorb someones speed? Is it related to how invulnerable they are? Does he have to touch them? Vs other speedster chars, does it take longer as they have more to begin with?

There is a plausible way for CM to win, and win big here, provided some things.

If Flash has to touch him, and it takes longer for whatever reason, CM is no dummy. Why not change to Batson, flash fry the flash, change back again quick like and then go on about his business.

I realise it's not a normal attack, but this isn't a normal fight or situation (ie having speed stolen). This would be both decieving, and wise (wisdom of solomon).

In a way he takes flash out in a similar way to how Thor could have taken wally out (and did take him out in the cosmic tourney). Granted his options are much less being more limited then Thor for options, but still, the blast would throttle Wally but good.

Then CM is free to bust up Doom on thing, or help Reddy out.

This little gem would turn this from a Flash/Doom win, into an easy CM win.

[Maniac_nmt]

I know the idea is semi Kingdom Come, but the idea is sound.

[BAKID]

Captain Marvel's Team

I can't see either team underestimating the other (Thing knows plenty about Doom, and Marvel has the Wisdom of Solomon). CM's team looks like it has much better team chemistry, and Marvel can survive more than one lightspeed punch. I think plenty of the folks raving about Doom's genius just aren't giving the big red cheese his proper due. I agree that Wally, operating at his potential, could take down 90% of the super-heavyweights in the DCU, but I think Captain Marvel is in the 10% left over.

[brendanbrown]

what makes this most convincing for me is, Team Flash has 4 variable characters, Team Marvel has one.
Nighthawk, Tornado and Thing are all pretty strait up with their powers(except Nighthawk could be argued), but Marvel is a gigantic variable in this fight.
The problem is, TF has 4 people that are very varied in what they can do on the battlefield, and looking at this from a percentage standpoint, I give it to them 75% of the time.

[Zephyr Dude]

team flash

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
If Flash has to touch him, and it takes longer for whatever reason, CM is no dummy. Why not change to Batson, flash fry the flash, change back again quick like and then go on about his business.

Because that's more likely to get Billy killed than take out Wally? While draining CM's speed Wally will be operating at full hyper-speed. You know, where everything is portrayed as completely frozen? So in the space between "A" and "M," when it's too late for CM to stop the change, Wally has enough time and reaction speed to do a couple thousand laps of the arena, watch the Big Red Cheese turn into the intrepid boy reporter, and then zip back and pop the little guy in the face before he can say "SH" to try to change back.

[Grinner]

You know, one of the funniest things (to me) is seeing myself branded as a Flash Fan and seeing myself defending Wally here. Now as a character I've always had a fondness for Wally. How could I not? He was one of the founding Titans (and unlike Aqualad actually had a personality), was one of the Wolfman/Perez Titans, and has almost always been entertaining both in his own title and in the various Justice League titles. He and Nightwing represent the two extremes of the grown-up side-kick - One became his mentor and the other became his own man, more or less removing himself from the "line of ascencion."

That said, I personally believe that the extent to which Wally's powers have been raised in recent years are ludicrious. Heck, given the potential we have seen off of various things he's done even the Kingdom Come Flash is a slacker. And that's ridiculous.

BUT just because it's silly or outlandish doesn't mean he doesn't have these powers. And that's why I keep finding myself bringing up the points I do.

[KingBlackBolt]

Hate to do this again but Im gonna switch my vote back to Shazams team. And yes this is my final answer.

[DarthDoom]

DOOM will crush shazam andthen Crush the rest of his own team to show them a lesson in DOOM.

[Gentlegamer]

Let me ask: do any of the DCU characters on Doom's team know about Captain Marvel's Billy Batson identity and that his saying "Shazam" will cause him to revert to Billy? If so, can not Doctor Doom use some kind of mind control spell to make Captain Marvel invoke Shazam and revert to Billy Batson? That is what Black Adam had Brainwave do in the opening battle against the JSA in Khandaq, and it completely removed Captain Marvel from the fight.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by thugit
Team Captain Marvel.

Marvel can win this one pretty much by himself. No one can ever convince me that Doom can stand up to Shazam.You forget that Doom can beat anyone given at least 20 seconds to prepare, a toothpick and the pop-top of a soda can. :noid:

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
You mean like Doom's first appearance where he sent the FF (sans Susan) back in time to steal the treasure of Blackbeard so he could invoke some magic ritual with some gems?Kind of like that, except that in that case he sent them using a time machine and never cast a spell or did a ritual or anything else even remotely magical. In fact, he said possession of the gems was what he wanted. He implied they were more like the Cosmic Cube than a component for a spell.

"Those little baubles are more than what they seem! They were originally the property of Merlin, the ancient magician! He gave them mystic power... the power to make their owner invincible!

"And now, that power shall be mine! With these gems in my possession, no force on Earth can ever defeat me!"

[Swiftspeedster]

Team Wally, when the entire team goes superspped people had better watch out. I mean a superspeed Deathstroke and Doom is WAAAY too scary. Hey what hitman is this because from what it looks like we have two snipers her isn't that a little overkill (pun not in-...well okay a little intended)? BTW why is Doom only a HW and Wally a SHW? Are people insinuating Wally could beat DOOM?! I dunno, gonna have to think on that one...

[coad14]

team doom

[Silver Lantern]

Originally posted by Gentlegamer
Wally West evacuated 532,000 people from the South Korean city of Chongjin in .00001 microseconds to avoid the nuclear missle that destroyed the city . . .

And then DC fans wonder why Marvel fans can't take them seriously?!?
Man GG, that example is just beyond all bounds of ridiculous absurdity. I like the flash, and even his team here too, but I don't care even if the above example is in every single comic book ever printed in the history of comics. I would still refuse to accept that example because it seems SOOO EXTREMELY darn silly.
It gets to the point where things seem SOOO incredibly impossible, and SOOO outside the realm of acceptable possibility, that people of common sense (yes, even people who like fiction and comic books), just CANNOT ACCEPT IT without losing some part of their sanity. This is one of those moments.

[green_knight]

there is something that needs clarification, is this the new sorcerer Doom that traded his knowledge of science for magic, or is this Scientist Doom, who still is pretty good at magic, but not the "man" of magic? it makes a difference because some people are arguing for one, and some people for the other, in the same battle. Which is it?

[Silver Lantern]

Originally posted by Grinner
Deathstroke's sword cuts through metal like Wolverine's claws. Wolverine's claws can cut through Ben's hide. It is not an unreasonable conclusion that Slade's sword could do so as well.

Wait a minute Grinner! You yourself have argued against me in past VS battles that Wolverine cannot cut through metal because "he lacks the strength necessary to do so" or something along those lines. You sir, are now precluded from using the opposite of that view to your advantage. As you've told me before, "you cannot have it both ways." If it didn't work for you then, it sure as heck won't work for you now.
Don't even try it on my watch buddy! ;)

[Silver Lantern]

I am voting for Cap Marvel's team

FOR NOW. :ermm:

[VandalSavage]

Originally posted by Silver Lantern
And then DC fans wonder why Marvel fans can't take them seriously?!?
Man GG, that example is just beyond all bounds of ridiculous absurdity. I like the flash, and even his team here too, but I don't care even if the above example is in every single comic book ever printed in the history of comics. I would still refuse to accept that example because it seems SOOO EXTREMELY darn silly.
It gets to the point where things seem SOOO incredibly impossible, and SOOO outside the realm of acceptable possibility, that people of common sense (yes, even people who like fiction and comic books), just CANNOT ACCEPT IT without losing some part of their sanity. This is one of those moments.

You think this example in a comic book is silly, but are ok with the Infinity Gauntlet?, Beyonder?, Magneto destroying New York..yet shedding a tear for it in the 9/11 book is fine...Those all seem a little above and beyond common sense....It's a C-O-M-I-C B-O-O-K....If I wanted common sense I would read a different medium.

Mr. Savage

[VandalSavage]

Originally posted by green_knight
I would vote for Flash over practically anyone, he is THAT powerful.

BUT.

Guys like captiain cold and boomerang regularly give him trouble. So obviously power is not the only issue here.



True, But you could make a case against any hero with...quotes like guys like so and so give him trouble...Heck...The Prankster and Toyman give Superman Trouble!!


Mr. Savage

[VandalSavage]

Originally posted by thugit

What can Deathstroke do to Captain Marvel? Get slapped around, that's what. He can't fly, he can't hurt Marvel. Flash can't fly, and a character with the wisdom of Solomon isn't going to stand around waiting for Flash to run around the world and hit him in the face. Doom is out before he even knows what's going on. Even if Marvel lost everyone else on his team, he would still win this one.

To be Fair....Flash has found ways over the years to ground flying foes....and depending on the circumstance Wally may be convinced to lend some speed Doom's way...

Mr. Savage

[thugit]

Originally posted by VandalSavage
To be Fair....Flash has found ways over the years to ground flying foes....



Indeed he has, Mr. Savage, but Captain Marvel is Superman level in power, and is much, MUCH smarter than folks on this thread are giving him credit for.

I like the Flash a lot more than I like Captain Marvel, but there's not much chance that he'd beat CM.


I stand by what I said about Doom, also: He'd be out before he knew what was going on. CM is going to see that Doom is the guy calling the shots, and he's going to drop him. There's no way someone like Doom can stand up to Shazam. None.

[Rando]

Flash may have found ways to deal with grounded characters in the past, but Captain Marvel and many lesser superheros right on down to lightweights have found ways to deal with super speed in the past. I dunno what comic books everyone else is reading but in the ones that I read Flash cannot be regularly called upon to handle opponents that are even as tough as Red Tornado or Thing much less Captain Marvel. It isn't like when the JLA gotta bust heads on Apoclaypse you can see Batman saying things like "Superman is down, Flash speed us all up and then go and fight off Darkseid".

I find it extremely generous to presume that Wally will give Doom all the pertinent information about the speed force that Victor is gonna need to hatch all these super plans that team Doom is supposed to generate as well. In Year One it took the btter part of a year for the JLA to get a good grasp on what kinds of powers Barry Alan had, he didn't just spit them all out in a couple of minutes, and he had a much btter reason to trust the JLA people than Wally has to trust Doom. Plus it isn't like Wally is sitting there thinking to himself "man, I'm terrible with my speed force powers I better tell this imperious creepy guy every detail about them so he can give me some pointers instead of just depending on my own know how." With no better way to communicatte than just speech when asked to explain his powers Wally would probably say something like "I'm the fastest man alive!" and zip around a little, which would leave Doom to think "This guy is just Quicksilver, only red" he has no way to really know about all the rest of the information he isn't getting. I also think it is very generous to expect Deathstroke and Flash to just fall in line and listen to Doom, Doom has no reputation in the DC universe and he is very egocentric and often imperious. He is capable of acting personable and friendly, but he only does so when he needs to manipulate someone that he perceives as being clearly more powerful than himself (and with no experince whatsoever with Flash Doom has no real way to know that Wally is capable of being so dangerous, and thus being "worthy" of Doom's manipulations). Even acting friendly I think it is a tremendous stretch to beleive that Deathstroke would take orders from Doom or vice versa, they are both loners and neither can present credentials that would accurately display ones superior abilities in a tactical sense to the other ("I don't need your advice, I have taken the Titans myself", "Fool, I care not about your 'Titans', Richards and the Fantastic Four quake at the mere mention of Doom!").

How does Flash steal peoples speed? I've onlt seen Jay do this and it involves jumping in the path of momentum or something along those lines. Is Wally west some kind of speed blackhole, that he can just syphon off a whole teams speed? If so why does he never use this talent when he is fighting alongside the Justice League, immobilizing large numbers of foes effortlessly would seem to be a useful tactic?

I reiterate that it has been shown in the past that lending characters not used to super human speeds super speeds tend to disorent them. Doom, Deathstroke, and Hitman are not going to be able to function with lent speed, and that is assuming Wally acquieses to lend his speed to someone ominous like Doom, or to a known and bitter enemy like Deathstroke.

[dudemaestro]

The charicter that spells the end for team flash is Capt. Marvel. This charicter can give Superman a run for his money and Superman would destroy Doom. Add to the fact that Thing alone can give Doom a headache.... I love Doom and I love Flash but unless this is a popularity contest they stand no chance.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Honestly, I don't see Wally being the one to beat CM (whom I far prefer over the Flash, I admit). I also don't see Wally informing Doom all about the Speed Force.

I do, however, see Doom tapping into the Speed Force because Doom practically always backstabs his allies by trying to tap into their power source. :)

And, as noted, while it may not be the most commonly used of Doom's powers, he can and does use the mindswitch for more than just an escape mechanism and _that_ is how I see him beating Captain Marvel. It may not be the most popular thought on this board, but there's enough canon behind Doom's use of mindswitching to mean it's a viable tactic. Of course, if it was actually a comic book we know how it would turn out: Doom (in Marvel's body) takes a moment to bask in his newfound might, casually swatting aside the advancing Red Tornado. Doom then shouts and gloats, "Tremble opponents for now it is I that has the power of Shazam!" *thoom* and a second later Ben Grimm drops the fifteen-year old. ;)

Just one thing that I hate to admit: Wisdom of Solomon does not necessarily mean Captain Marvel is all-knowing and all-intelligent, it just means he is all-wise. Sounds similar, but it's not.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by dj_sha
From what I know of Nighthawk, he should be able to take out Hitman (which looks like a poor mans Batman vs. Punisher), but both will end up insignificant in the fight. (DC)

Except that the Punisher doesn't have x-ray vision and telepathy (reads minds and apparently surface scans pretty regularly). Mind you I _despise_ Hitman (okay, I dislike most of Garth Ennis' work and still regret buying the run of Preacher based on all the recommendations I'd heard for it) so I'm not the best person to give you full details on Hitman. I just know he killes super-powered individuals for a living, reads minds and has x-ray eyes (which is why he went up to the JLA tryouts: just so he could see Wonder Woman up close and tell the JLA he kills super-heroes for a living; I admit that was funny. :) ).

Unfortunately, I agree that once again we have a fight where the lightweights are just so far out of their weightcategory that they're limited in what they can contribute to a fight. Heavies and SHW's can sometimes hold against each other for a bit (though the SHW should win 9 out of 10 times) and the MW seem able to at least be swing factors (Cos's magnetism or RT's high-speed winds to trip up Wally in this fight). The LW's seem, at best, information givers for the 10 minute period (okay, Gambit had some influence in the previous but not much). Of course, I'm sure it doesn't help that so far the 4 SHW's have been superspeedsters (and 3 of the 4 are invulnerable).

[brendanbrown]

does anyone know the total? it seems very very close

[DTM]

Originally posted by Manchine
Actually this is Doom's Team. Doom would not have it any other way.

VERY true. The leaders in the battles themselves dont have to be the SHW, as Doom and Cap would certainly take the leadership roles in their teams. I was mostly commented, teasing really, that voting wise we should give the SHW his respect and call this Team Flash.......er......just not in front of Victor, ok. :)

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
(okay, I dislike most of Garth Ennis' work and still regret buying the run of Preacher based on all the recommendations I'd heard for it)I hear ya. Although I do feel there is a worthwhile story underneath all the sophomoric swearing, reference to sexual deviance and anti-PC "I'm a guy" infantile philosophizing. The setup is totally original, the basic elements of the plot are interesting and the personal relationships between the main characters are believable and compelling.

It's kind of like Transmetropolitan that way. :confused:

[DTM]

Also, for the record, this Nighthawk is from the Squadron Supreme, and was nominated at the same time by the same member here as Whizzer, Hyperion and Power Princess, all of which are SS members.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by DTM
I was mostly commented, teasing really, that voting wise we should give the SHW his respect and call this Team Flash.......er......just not in front of Victor, ok. :)


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

LOL

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by DTM
I was mostly commented ... that voting wise we should give the SHW his respectThis would be a great general rule. It'd be helpful if you actually named them in each thread (eg, Battle 2: Team Flash vs Team Marvel).

[DTM]

Originally posted by KingBlackBolt
Grinner, I dont have a problem with flash being this powerful, but I know someone tried to get onslaught in this and he got rejected for being too powerful. Plus if Flash can knock people from north dakota to africa there are going to be a lot of heros in trouble when its time to face him. I mean if he can do that then why not run around and take out all of the ground guys first? I mean if I was flash and doom said "what can you do?" I would respond knock you half way across the earth with minimal effort ya know? I didnt think I was going to do this but I have no choice, Team Flash for the win.:cry:

Onslaught was a near Galactus level mentalist villian, who took on MOST of the most popular and powerful heroes and Doom, all at once. That surely pushes him beyond the SHW class.

[DTM]

Originally posted by KingBlackBolt
Also I cant wait for black bolt to get up to bat with that nasty nuclear explosion yell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about nasty thats not even the only thing he can do. :laugh:

Just remember, that each character SHOULD act IN CHARACTER, so I dont see BB starting every battle with a YELL.

Also, there are quite a few SHWs who can and have survived nuclear blasts, even at ground zero.

[Q99]

This would be a great general rule. It'd be helpful if you actually named them in each thread (eg, Battle 2: Team Flash vs Team Marvel).

Nah, I think we shouldn't ;)


If there's a debate over who's even in charge when it comes to names, then that says something about the team, and we don't want newcommers thinking they're automatically working together better than they should . I mean, most of the time, it'll be obvious, and most of the time, it'll be the SHW, but, for example, on the team with Doomsday and Captain America, it'll really be Capt in charge with 2 other guys, and Doomsday on the side.

[DTM]

Current Voting Totals:

Team Flash - 29 votes
Team Captain Marvel - 16 votes

And DD, I DID name them by Team SHW, at the bottoms of the first posts. Ill do the same on the BOLDED top section from now on. :)

New battle, coming up soon.

[Manchine]

So whats the count DTM.


Nevermind LOL

[DTM]

The naming of the team when you vote has NOTHING to do with WHO on the team is actually in charge. Its just a formality making it slightly easier for everyone to follow and me to count, thats all. :)

[DreadDormammu]

Exactly. It's just useful to have a term for everyone to use in common.

[thugit]

This is easily the most silly voting I've seen.


I hope that all the people who are voting based on Doom somehow using Flash's powers do the same when Batman and the Martian Manhunter end up on the same team. ;)

[Maniac_nmt]

actually I am changing my vote to Captain Marvel and crew.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by thugit
This is easily the most silly voting I've seen.I place this second most silly. Most silly was when Doom almost beat Hal Jordan in a one-on-one with no prep time. :mad:

[Manchine]

Why, Doom should be a Super Heavy Weight. Sure a low Super Heavy Weight but thats beside the point. Doom could beat about 1/3rd of the Super Heavy Weights with no Prep time.

Its just silly to think otherwise.

[DreadDormammu]

Originally posted by Manchine
Why, Doom should be a Super Heavy Weight. Sure a low Super Heavy Weight but thats beside the point. Doom could beat about 1/3rd of the Super Heavy Weights with no Prep time.

Its just silly to think otherwise. Even though the Thing can kick Doom's butt solo? For that matter, Invisible Woman has beat him in a straight up fight as well.

[dj_sha]

Originally posted by thugit
This is easily the most silly voting I've seen.




Agreed. Doom is overrated in one on one fights and his die hard fans swallow this up. "But Doom could use some mind control spell and then go at super speed and end world hunger!" From these crummy arguments, it sounds like a closer fight would be Dr. Doom vs. McGiever.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Even though the Thing can kick Doom's butt solo?

Only becuase thing has fought him so many times and knows how to fight him.

[DreadDormammu]

Wow. I always took you seriously before, Manchine. Never again. If Thing can beat someone in one panel of action, Captain Marvel can beat that person in the space between heartbeats. You are really making no sense whatsoever.

[Manchine]

Originally posted by dj_sha
Agreed. Doom is overrated in one on one fights and his die hard fans swall