Independant Contest of Champions-Semi-Final Match1

[oogie56]

We are now into the final two battle to determain our Lightweight champ. The first semi-final matchup give us:

Storm Shadow

vs

Conan

God killer and ninja will do battle today in-
Urban Area-lots of cars, biuldings, rooftop access

Round 1-
American Maid vs Ninjak-Ninjak
Dart vs Jody-Dart
Lara Croft vs Max-Lara Croft
Usagi vs Storm Shadow-Storm Shadow
Conan vs Ferg-Conan
Achillies vs Capt Nemo-Nemo
Casey Jones vs Badger-Badger
Awryn vs Shadowman-Arwyn
Shadowhawk vs Donatello-Donatello
Marv vs Raphael-Raphael
Boon vs The Phantom-The Phantom
Backlash vs Tarzan-Tarzan
John Sable vs Paul the Samurai-John Sable
Granma Rose Ben vs Whisper-Granma
Snake Eyes vs Grifter-Snake Eyes
Deathblow vs Archer-Deathblow

Round2
Ninjak vs Dart-Ninjak
Lara Croft vs Storm Shadow-Storm Shadow
Conan vs Nemo-Conan
Badger vs Arwyn-Badger
Deathblow vs Snake Eyes-Snake Eyes
Granma Rose Ben vs John Sable-Granma
Tarzan vs The Phantom-Tarzan
Raphael vs Donatello-Raphael

Round3-
Ninjak vs Storm Shadow-Storm Shadow
Conan vs Badger-Conan
Snake Eyes vs Granma Ro+se Ben-Snake Eyes
Tarzan vs Raphael-Tarzan

Semi-Final-
Storm Shadow vs Conan-?????????

[Maniac_nmt]

Conan the barbarian slices, he dices, and makes julian storm shadow seven different way! But wait, there's more.... Act today, and you can get a free wizzard or god slaying in at no extra charge.

When this man sees snakes, and their emblems, watch out! He comes the butt-kicking of a life time. So stay tuned, same Cimmerian time, same Cimmerian channel!

[Rokk_Krinn]

Yep. Like Maniac points out, Storm Shadow's outfit is going to affect Conan like killing Kitty in front of Logan: pure unadulterated hate. :) Storm Shadow does have some distance attacks, obviously, but Conan's no stranger to fighting "stealthy mysterious archers" and when it closes in to melee weapons, it's going to be bloody.

Vote: Conan

[Rando]

I vote Storm Shadow

20the century technology and advanced military tactics plus an environmant that Conan has never experinced before, which also allows plenty of sniping opportunitie cements the ninja's victory. I just don't understand how Conan is supposed to take a bullet or 12, much less a hand grenade.

[Maniac_nmt]

In melee Conan will rip through Stormshadow like a blender on ultra high.

by the way, like the idea of calling them semi finals, have you thought of doing a 3rd/4th place match in addition to the final? (ie Conan vs Tarzan for the final, cause it can't be any other way:p , but then StormShadow vs Snakeeyes for the 3rd/4th place match, kind of like how they do the world cup)

[oogie56]

Hadn't thought about that maniac, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. It would give some more matchups that people want to see. And it seems like this whole tourney has pretty well lead to one pairing in the final, but we will have to wait and see until tomorrow.

[Rando]

Conan might be a better hand to hand fighter, but really who is to say. On paper Storm Shadow has every reason to be, just like anything else martial arts have been refined over the centuries, Storm Shadow is a master of more mdern fighting styles that have been refined through decades of honing. Any training Conan has received must be inferior to this, the time period in which he is depicted make this so. Conan's resume is impressive, but clearly he could not have defeated gods in direct single combat without there being serious mitigating circumstances, Conan is still a man he would be incapable of harming many "middle weight" heros with just the wepaons available to him and almost and heavy and up and god like entities must be powerful beyond even that range, anything Conan could even harm in a direct confrontation without any mitgating circumstances (which cannot exist here) would not truly qualify as a god in the sense depicted in normal superheroics if for no other reason than it can be destroyed by mere mundane weaponry weilded by a "normal' human. Storm Shadow is typically depicted to be so dangerous that he is beyond being threatened by nearly anything the Joe's or Cobra can bring to bear, his only real counter is Snake Eyes. I find it hard to beleive that Conan can be expected to surpass a threat similar to that presented by the most elite military orginization in the modern world, especially when they commonly weild weapons beyond that of Conan's understanding, if not imagination, while Conan is restircted to a sword, maybe a bow and some arrows. On top of that Storm Shadow is in an arena that aids the tremendous stealth and assassination skills he has in abundance, and it is familiar to him. This arena is totally alien to Conan, it is not just a geographical climate that Conan has not had the chance to frequent, it is one that he would not have been able to imagine even existing. On top of all of that Storm Shadow has a serious techonolgical advantage, not only does he carry fire arms and explosives, but even his standard close combat sword is a katana, which is widley beleived to be the most well made sword to ever exist. In technology, training, and environment usage Storm Shadow has a clear definate and extreme advantage, the only wiggle room that Conan has to offset this is talent and experience, and those are not clearly in Conan's favor, they only might be.

[eltigrediablo]

The thing with Conan is this: He constantly wins fights in which he is clearly overmatched. To say he couldn't beat a modern ninja is senseless, as *nothing* he's ever met has stood before him before. This is the guy whose mantra in combat is 'if it bleeds, it can die', and whose willpower is extraordinary. He is a cunning strategist, unparalleled melee fighter, inhumanly strong, has an impossibly high threshold of pain, and a great ability to absorb damage without compromising any of his other skills, and can use stealth as well as ferret out the stealthy. And since his comic resume has him wading his way through such varied foes as wizards, giants, otherworldly beasts, vampires, gods, dragons and armies both small and large, he just outclasses Stromy on every front.

Maybe when Storm Shadow puts in a few hundred issues worth of solo-title butt-whupping, he could be worthy of beating Conan, but not now.

Conan wins.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Storm Shadow does not, traditionally, pack firearms so that's not an issue in this fight Rando. He'll probably try and use bows to snipe Conan but like I said earlier: how many times have we seen Conan in an unfamiliar "urban" (for his "time period") environment where mysterious assassins try to shoot him from the shadows? Now, how many times have those shadowy assassins been successful? Conan almost has a preternatural danger sense (not a true one but certainly something honed by years of experience) - while he's busy dodging that "sniper" arrow from SS he'll already be returning fire with a flung blade. At that point, it's no longer a game of "hunt and seek" for SS.

[JayThor]

Conan gets my vote. He is just too much for a ninja, even a super one.

[Rando]

Now wait a minute Rokk, two matches ago you cited that Storm Shadows oppositte, Snake Eyes could use explosives againt Rose Ben. Now your telling me that the sighted ninja does not carry firearms or explosives of any kind, but the blind one does?! It has been a while since I picked up a G.I.Joe comic but i know for a fact that Storm Shadow's action figure does have small arms, if that is any kind of source.

[oogie56]

I have read both the old Marvel GI Joe book and am reading the current one. Let me clairify. Snake Eyes is like a special ops/ninja combo. He always has some grenades, a gun or two, and a katana on him. Storm Shadow is more strickly ninja-like. He carries a couple of swords, shurikens, and sometimes chucks. He does carry a bow, and also usually has a small caliber gun on him. He doesn't generally carry any explosives, unless it is mission specific.

[Rokk_Krinn]

You're right - I did say Snake-Eyes packs explosives and small arms. Storm Shadow did not (though he may have had a couple grenades). I'm going off of their traditional appearances in comics, their action figures (with "bio" cards), their "G.I. Joe" Handbook entries and, yes, even their cartoon appearances: Storm Shadow's traditional armament does not include firearms and it's debatable if he has even a couple standard explosives. Snake-Eyes job with G.I. Joe was not "Team Ninja": his MOS was a Commando.

Oh, and for the record, Snake-Eyes isn't blind: he's mute. :)

[supermangl1]

First off Snake Eyes isn't blind, he is just can't speak. Also Snake Eyes packs some gerandes and uzi along with knives, and large sword. Storm Shadow uses knives, large sword, bow and arrow, not noramlly a gerande or a gun.

Now back to Conan, I would say Conan's sword is the best ever made. I think I remember it from Atlantis of something crazy like that. But it had cut dragons, Gods, and a slew of humans in armor and the like. Conan wins big time here! If Conan gets his hands on Storm Shadow it's over too, SNAP!

my vote = Conan

[SteveRogers]

Storm Shadow

(I already voted for him in the second match.)

[Gambit]

I also vote Storm shadow.

[EVIL CAP]

Storm Shadow would FINALLY find an opponent besides Snake-eyes that can stand up to him.Id say Conan is right up to par with either of these guys and the only way they could get a clearcut win would be with modern weaponry[A gunshot even if it only wounds him would be a difference maker].Without such things and in a traditional fight its about as even as you can get with SS obviously being significantly faster but Conan able to dish out and absorb more punishment.In the end of a long bloody battle SS simply falls down first and Conan stays up a few seconds longer before passing out [Batgirl/Shiva style]

One more for Conan

[Maniac_nmt]

i must take grevious exception to the idea StormShadow is more skilled based on modern era.

Most combat techniques, and especially sword related ones have been all but lost in the modern era.

For instance would you know that monks in Europe developed martial arts akin to their eastern breathren? That medieval recreationists still figure they do it about half how a normal solider would have done it?

Conan is a master of weapons, on a scale Stormshadow cannot match. He is ninja, the art of not being seen, Samurai used to beat the **** out of them in a fight, and Conan is far superior to any Samurai.

Skill, durability, endurance, strength, fighting style, experience, will, guile, cunning, etc are all solidly his.

No, Tarzan is the only guy in this tourney that can threaten the Cimmerian (and I grew up on GI Joe, the cartoons when they first came out, the comics, the action figures, etc.) Storm Shadow would get whuped!

[Rando]

I'm not willing to accept that information on any develped "science" has regressed without some kind of supporting evidence. All practiced disciplines, from sports, to sciences, to combat styles have been refined over time, that is a truism of any society which records and stores information. I am not willing to accept that sword fighting is the one area in human development that has somehow regressed to a point where there is less information than in the Dark Ages without clear evidence to support such a claim. Furthermore, not just matial arts have been refined but true military science as well, Conan is from a period where, in the real world, pike lines were only a fantasy and heavy cavalry was widely regarded as simply unstoppable except by other heavy cavalry, Strom Shadow has a wealth of special ops tactics to draw upon that would not even have been developed in Conan's time period, infact I don't think the concept of a special ops agent, in the way we would think of one, had even been dreamed possible.

[Rokk_Krinn]

You want another truism: how about the fact that sword fighting has become a relatively obsolete method of melee? As such, it's probably grown rusty over the years -use it or lose it and society has lost it (not entirely, and SS is obviously very very good with a katana - which is odd as that is not a traditional ninja weapon - but to say today's society is as good with a sword as the society of people who literally lived or died by it seems wrong).

[Kaiba2787]

I gotta give it to Storm Shadow

[Rando]

This is where the difference in reality and comicdom comes in. In the real world the art of swordplay has been lost because it doesn't work, period, in the real world having a gun or even a bow mandates that you beat a swordsman pretty much all the time. However in the land of G.I.Joe this is not the case, as the most dangerous special agents in this unvierse are both swordsman (Storm Shadow almost exclusively apparently) then swordplay must still be viable somehow as a useable form of military combat. Since swordfighting still works, then it would not have become obselete as it is still viable, and so would still be being developed like anything else.

[UXMGambit]

Storm Shadow

[Maniac_nmt]

gah, why do I get the feeling half of you don't even know storm shadow, who used to get beat by more then just snake eyes (stalker used to be able to take it to him, quick kick used to kick his face in, I mean quick kick for pete's sake, and basically most of the other joes).

Storm Shadow often got rocked if it got into hand to hand. He's a kill in the night type, not mix swords up type.

[Rando]

And this arena is the best possible one for kills in the night, Strom Shadow knows how to get around in it, Conan wouldn't even know how to start looking for flights of stairs or operate elevators to get him to the rooftops, he might not even know that there are ways to get onto the roggtops without scaleling the outside of the building. Storm Shadow should be able to launch numerous assasination attempts againt Conan, and if those are Storm Shadow's greatest strength one of them ought to eventually suceed.

[Maniac_nmt]

kills in the night, mean kills when people don't know you are comming, if he were comming for Conan in the dead of night while he was sleeping after being drugged, then okay maybe.

Conan knows he's here, fights the best assassin's money can't buy, and fights all manner of beasts that lurk in the shadows.

He's been in enough cities not to be out of place here. Remember, he's king by his own hand.

[JayThor]

Conan has been in cities before. He has seen stairs, rooftops, and is a very good strategist, usually not allowing himself to get in spots where he is too exposed. I speak from having read many novels, not just the comics, so I don't know if that counts. Conan has fought stealthed characters, assassins, groups, monsters, and trained soldiers and gladiators. He would beat Storm Shadow, basically a guy with a sword.

[Rando]

Unless Conan makes it a practice to travel through time then he has never been in a city like this one. Modern urban environements are radically different than cities from Conan's time. The vast majority of buildings in a dark age city were one room builidings, there are almost no instances of any structure reaching the heights of even an average skys####er or apartment complex. This is due to the indistrial revolution and things like steel factories, once things like girders could be churned out in a consistent manner they allowed for architetrual structures that vastly differ from those that had to be constructed totally by hand, brick by brick, and beam by beam.

[Maniac_nmt]

I too have read some of the novels, Conan is bad news for bad news guys everywhere. I read bits of some of the comics, and it was still similar enough to say it about him. He is a slayer, not of anything like

[Maniac_nmt]

not true, as things such as Babylon, or Rome for that matter attest to.

The more exotic cities in Conan more closely ressemble fantasy style structures, with towering spires, opulent palaces, massive walls, etc.

[Rando]

There is nothing going on in Rome or Babylon that is even remotlety resemblant of a skys####er, I can't think of a single structure that tops 10 stories right of hand, they are certainly do not account for every building in the environemnet, and most of the stories are empty space (grand halls with high roofs and such) instead of stacked storeis filled with small compartementalized areas. This would also be true in a fantasy setting, simple physics makes it impossibel to create buildings on a scale greater than this without a quick method to refine uniform peices of metal, and magical structures would certainly have very different internal and external architetural layouts (for obvious reasons).

[Maniac_nmt]

oh, I dunno, the fact that they had the colisium rigged so it could be flooded and drained in minutes for full scale naval battles. The fact no engineer to date can figure out how they made the sun shades for it (and we know they had them), Aquaducts that span hundreds and hundreds of miles.

Appartment buildings reaching 6-10 stories tall, lead plumbing.

Our ancestors were a hell of a lot smarter then anyone gives them credit for. The Roman's had detailed surgical skill and knowledge probably not regained untill after the 1800s. The Egyptians built pyramids that should have taken them 100 years in 10, and so forth.

A lot of that knowledge has been lost to war, famine, etc.

Hell, the typical Roman soldier carried as much or more in weight then a modern trooper, marched or ran 10 miles a day with it, and continuously sparred with heavier items. They built a new fort at the end of every march into un-occupied territory. The Greeks made Napalm using a formula we still don't know today.

You are seriously overestimating today, and seriously underestimating then.

[Maniac_nmt]

Did you know the vikings were here in America by the year 1000. Not just once, but several times. They have engravings from the 1300s laid down by them in the south east, and the ruins of homes in the north east. That Greeks may have circled the globe about the time of the Trojan War (ie when Mycenae was the most powerful kingdom).

Or that Roman fortifications are still in the nuclear war plans for modern European countries?

Now Conan doesn't come from that world per se, but a fantasy one, but still. They're brighter then you think, and a lot more capable then you want to give them credit for.

[Rando]

None of which is relevant in the least here however as none of those structures have a makeup at all like that of the buildings in this environment, and therefore Conan has no way to be familar with how to move around in it, thus forceing him to make radical adjustments to his envireonemnt while an assassin, who is totally familar with it, and has ever reason to know of Conan's unfamilarity, and use it against him, is trying to kil Conan, from range. I never claimed conan was stupid, just that he has a huge informational disadvantge. In addition all of your examples of ancient acheivements are totally irreleavnt in regards to Conan, he is a he not every person in a huge time period, claiming that the wonderous achievmenets of various cultures in a large time period that is around when Conan's fantasy world is depicted shows that Conan can be expected to behave more intelligently that Storm Shadow is essesntially the same as me claiming that Strom Shadow can be expected to be more intelligent since in the modern era nuclear power, jet propulsion, and laser surgery have been developed. Only the characters actual acheivements can show which is actually smarter, their relative time periods however dictate that Storm Shadow has a clear informational advantage, and that he does not have to adjust to the environment, while Conan absolutely would. In short Storm Shadow has a serious knowledge advantage in modern espionage tactics, and environmental familiarity, and knowing is half the battle.

[oogie56]

Wow!! Some of the most heated discussion in the tourney. And it almost was enough, but not quite. The final totals for the match are-

Storm Shadow-5
Conan-6

[JayThor]

Rando- No there weren't any 10 story skys####ers, but if Stormshadow is that high up, his sword is going to be useless against Conan.

[Maniac_nmt]

no Rando, I'm showing your wrong about our forefathers being weaker, or less skilled, or dumber or whatever then we are.

Considering they built things we cannot replicate today, or fought in ways that are lost for all time, it's hogwash to say StormShadow is better because he's modern.