Marvel HeroClix: Ultimates New Game Mechanic - New Team Abilities [Archive]

Draddog

04/28/2004, 13:09

Marvel HeroClix: Ultimates New Game Mechanic - New Team Abilities by Aaron SchantzUltimates, the new Marvel HeroClix expansion debuting this summer, introduces four new team abilities. Two are new to Marvel and two are brand-new to the HeroClix game – and all of them will change the face of Marvel HeroClix in a big way!<TABLE BORDER="0"><TR><TD><IMG SRC="/images/Morlocks.gif"></TD><TD>Morlocks: When it makes a close combat attack, a member of this team gets +1 to its attack value for each friendly character that is both adjacent to this team member and the target character.</TD></TR></TABLE>There aren’t a lot of Morlocks in Ultimates, and they might not be the most powerful characters in the game, but their team ability shows how strong they can be when they work together. This isn’t just “+1”; it’s +1 for every qualifying teammate, which can add up to a nice increase in a swarm.<TABLE BORDER="0"><TR><TD><IMG SRC="/images/UltimateX-Men.gif"></TD><TD>Ultimate X-Men: At any time during the game, choose an opposing team or character for this team member; once this choice is made, it may not be changed. This team member gets +1 to its attack value against the chosen team or character.</TD></TR></TABLE>The Ultimate X-Men are very determined, and when they set their sights on opponents, they aim to take them down. Keep in mind that you don’t have to declare this team ability at the beginning of the game. You can wait to see who will be the biggest threat and then assign the target at any time. <TABLE BORDER="0"><TR><TD><IMG SRC="/images/SerpentSociety.gif"></TD><TD>Serpent Society: Give a member of this team a power action. Move it any number of squares up to its speed value, ignoring the effects of all characters and terrain, including elevated terrain, on movement. This team member may not end its move in blocking terrain.</TD></TR></TABLE>Yes, you read it right; this team ability essentially gives every member of the Serpent Society the Phasing/Teleport power! This is in part to represent Sidewinder’s ability to teleport (like how he used it to keep his teammates out of prison) and also to represent the fact that these are slippery snakes that you just can’t pin down!Serpent Society members can slither anywhere they want, and because it’s a team ability, they can still have other movement powers.<TABLE BORDER="0"><TR><TD><IMG SRC="/images/Ultimates.gif"></TD><TD>Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities.</TD></TR></TABLE>Last, but most certainly not least, the Ultimates are the namesake of this expansion, and they get the royal treatment. This team ability is often called “anti-Stealth” because it is best known for use against hidden characters. But it is also useful for grounded characters, who will not have to stop in hindering terrain during their Running Shot or Charge attacks! Even without this spectacular team ability, the Ultimates are a force to be reckoned with. They have some really big guns that can lay down damage, and even the lower-point characters are extremely useful. Thanks to their team ability, however, don’t be surprised when lots of Ultimates team members see play, as armies unto themselves, as big guns, or just as lone characters helping out the rest of the team.

CaptainMarvel

04/28/2004, 13:11

TOTALLY SWEET!

batfink

04/28/2004, 13:12

Not that I'm complaining,but it would have been nice to have a "Mystics" like ability.

"Serpent Society" Rocks!

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:13

UGH! 2! Ultimate team abilities what ####

kon-el

04/28/2004, 13:13

SWEET!!!!

Yeti

04/28/2004, 13:13

I SO called the Ultimates TA months ago! Laugh at me and my explanation of spy cam sattelites will you?

I will wait and see about the Seprent society, because of the whole power action thing, I don't see it ever working with charge or RS which would be totally SWEET. but unlikely.

sniksder

04/28/2004, 13:14

KC Superman meet Ultimate Thor :)

no rolling for Ultimates against KC'ers...nice way to neutralize KC

Wasteland

04/28/2004, 13:14

Mmmm Anti-Stealth for Marvel

Think this means that Marvel will eventually get a stealth TA (Midnight Suns or Marvel Knights?)
'
The first TA, Morlocks, is eh...only up to plus 2, not "huge swarm plusses" they say. But +2 can be nice.

Ugh. Ultimate X-men. I like the TA, cuz all the judges got it. I was just hoping for something other than Ultimate X-Men, so that we don't get a rehash of a billion and a half figures done so far.

Serpent Society will be annoying. Never have to break away, can ignore everyone and everything on movement. Could be scary on the right figures.

RangedCombatEx

04/28/2004, 13:15

Wow, the Ultimates team ability seems really strong, but based on the wording, can they make ranged attacks against characters in stealth or with the Batman team ability? Do they also ignore the KC team ability?

SpakSpang

04/28/2004, 13:15

The Ultimate TA ability is awesome...but I hope they rewrite the Superman TA ability to be the same. This adds so much more usefulful options to it.

webhead817

04/28/2004, 13:16

Wow, very nice. Morlocks is like Hydra for Close Combat, and Serpent Society is very cool indeed...very nice.

Greyshadow

04/28/2004, 13:16

Morlocks? I wonder if we'll see a new version of Storm with the Morlock TA. And I suppose this is limited by the rule of three?

CaptainMarvel

04/28/2004, 13:16

I'm in a cold sweat now waiting for Ultimate Ironman. The description said that the Ultimates have some big guns and Thor and Ironman are the only two that I can think of.

sniksder

04/28/2004, 13:16

oh and no i dont know if Thor is in the new set, just if he is should be the equal to Superman......

JacinB

04/28/2004, 13:17

I really like these.

After seeing how good Unleashed was, I've already pre-ordered a case of Ultimates ... thinking that WizKids would likely build up from there and each set would get better and better.

This looks like a good start toward that end.

Thanks for the 'preview,' WizKids! So, does this mean that we can expect to see an Ultimates figure this afternoon? ;)

thugit

04/28/2004, 13:17

Not complaining, but why would the Ultimates TA be X-Ray vision?

Doesn't make sense.

ItsNotMe

04/28/2004, 13:18

I guess this means Calysto is in the next set...

RangedCombatEx

04/28/2004, 13:19

Think of Ultimate Hulk. If they give him charge, he'll be nasty. Just think, Hulk eating the heads of KC Superman/Shazam/Magog.

de4dp00l

04/28/2004, 13:19

Originally posted by sniksder
KC Superman meet Ultimate Thor :)

no rolling for Ultimates against KC'ers...nice way to neutralize KC

The Ultimates only ignore the effects of Terrain - they'll still have to roll to base KC characters. The Serpents on the other hand, don't.

tzoscey

04/28/2004, 13:19

some thoughts.....

morlocks ability? an sarah? marrow ? she was a morlock ¡¡¡¡¡

xmen ultimates, sweet get the 2000AD ability.....

Ultimates is the definitive ability to chack down alll those cheese teams of batman & ultron team... (batman is no cheese but when ultron gets into the batcave, something smeel like cheese....) , not more a +1 defense for be in hindering terrain , that sucks :P

Serpent abilities is one more for a cheap new increase for doombot teams :P

morlocks ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ SWEEEEEEET, another team to collect with the xmen ultimates

please morlocks generics ¡¡¡?

webhead817

04/28/2004, 13:20

Originally posted by Wasteland
The first TA, Morlocks, is eh...only up to plus 2, not "huge swarm plusses" they say. But +2 can be nice.

Actually, I just drew it out...you can have up to +4 (capped at +3 I guess)...so this could be huge.

raging_madboy

04/28/2004, 13:20

I cant believe Alpha Flight is over looked again. I mean do we really need MORE X-Men related figures? Morlocks? WHo really cares about them. I was an avid reader of X-Men growing up but i cant name that many. When will Alpha Fligth get some respect.

Cheng

04/28/2004, 13:20

Originally posted by SpakSpang
The Ultimate TA ability is awesome...but I hope they rewrite the Superman TA ability to be the same. This adds so much more usefulful options to it.

I just reread the Supes TA and I don't see a difference.

thugit

04/28/2004, 13:20

On a down side: Think of how much the Superman/Ultimates TA costs, and remember that Ultimate Captain America is something like 105 points or so.....

DS-00-0, FSD

04/28/2004, 13:23

Originally posted by ItsNotMe
I guess this means Calysto is in the next set...

Not neccessarily. Look at the Master's of Evil and thier team ability.

Actually this will likely mean that Sidewinder (Serpent Society) and Calysto will not be made into a Heroclix figure until 2006. ;) :laugh: :laugh:

sniksder

04/28/2004, 13:25

Originally posted by de4dp00l
The Ultimates only ignore the effects of Terrain - they'll still have to roll to base KC characters. The Serpents on the other hand, don't.

Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:26

Still no X-Ray vision

WarUlt

04/28/2004, 13:27

Wow... Just imagine Ultimate Iron Man laying some major smack down on those bat-cowards. He and Thor will be one to dish it out. an Ult Hawkeye would also be cool as a cheap anti-stealth sniper. I think this ability is justified by the team having such backup support (choppers, scientists, gadgets) that they are always prepared and never caught napping.

Also, you could technically get a +8 bonus to your close combat attacks with Morlocks (8 adjacent squares) but it's limited to 3.

Again, here's hoping to a Unique Nick Fury with stealth, phasing, outwit, and the ULTIMATES ability!

Sweetcurse

04/28/2004, 13:27

The Ultimates TA makes perfect sense. They have the technology to excuse it. IM has super computers on board, Thor is a god, and the rest have good equipment too, hecvk Fury becomes invisible!

BUT, Thugit is right, that is an expensive TA, and Cap at a 103 points probably means he's about as good as the current vet plus the expensive TA.:(

Horsehuntert

04/28/2004, 13:27

wow, looks like i have to collect 2 MORE teams!! i love the ulitimates and ultimate x-men. WOOT!!!

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:28

oh wait, cool

The Ultimate is X-ray vision

sweet deal

now hawkeye wont #### if they redo him

Sweetcurse

04/28/2004, 13:29

But, an anti bats cap is way cool!

clix

04/28/2004, 13:29

AWESOME

rotru

04/28/2004, 13:30

Awesome.

I was skeptical about two Ultimates TAs, but at least both of them are good abilities, and Ultimates is awesome!

Morlocks, though, does not impress me. Maximum +3 to attack (Rule of Three), and everybody has to gang up together. Eh. I don't care that much about the characters. Although, if current trends hold up and new TAs will be included in future sets as well, I have absolutely no problem with this. If you are going to include Morlocks, they may as well have their own TA. I was only worried when I thought that Morlocks would take a spot that could be used for something cooler.

Serpent Society - Awesome, although it would have been even neater if it were a free component of movement instead of an exact copy of Phasing. Something like this, I feel, was necessary for the Serpent Society, since may of them have Plasticity as well as Leap/Climb, Phasing, etc.

But let's add this all together and extrapolate who could possibly be in the set.

Morlocks - low level c-grade characters
Serpent Society - old b-grade villains
Ultimates and Ultimate X-men - love them or hate them

Is this set going to be marketed to the majority of fans strictly based on Ghost Rider and the Punisher? I personally like the Ultimates, but just as many people despise it as like it. The Serpent Society will be beloved by old-school Marvel fans, but newer fans may not get it. And Morlocks are cool for X-fans, but otherwise not so much. I'm not complaining or predicting doom, but I see the potential for a loss of the average fans.

My prediction, based on the trend set by Unleashed, as well as the possible character choices: this set will probably be very daring in regards to power combinations and figure strength, in order to attract people who may be turned off by the character selection.

Sweetcurse

04/28/2004, 13:30

anti green arrow hawkeye!

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:32

it's nice Marvel now has and anti-stealth ability

BUT how much does it cost, in DC it's a dang expensive ability

look at rook.Steel without that team ability he would be worth half the points

but the Black Panther haters can shutup about not being able to deal with him

Taibak

04/28/2004, 13:33

Originally posted by webhead817
Actually, I just drew it out...you can have up to +4 (capped at +3 I guess)...so this could be huge.

That and the adjacent friendlies don't have to be Morlocks to contribute to that bonus. Makes me wonder how well we can abuse that in mixed games with wildcard taxis and the Green Lantern Corps.

GameBrain

04/28/2004, 13:34

Gotta say, the new powers are cool and all (especially Ultimates), but am I the only who's noticed that the icons for these TA's are butt-ugly? I had to double check and make sure this wasn't a prank because they looked like such horrible fakes.

Swiftspeedster

04/28/2004, 13:34

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

I don't think that's what it means sniksder, it clearly states that they ignore effects of HINDERING TERRAIN on movement , combat, powers and team abilities. KC is not based on hindering terrain, it also says powers so the way you're looking at it they would essentially outwit all of their opponents powers. It clearly states that its based on hindering terrain TA ie. Batman.

XocgX

04/28/2004, 13:36

If I understand the Morlocks correctly, you can get a max of +4....because if they have to be adjacent to you AND the tyarget in close combat, the the best would be this

XTX
XMX

T target, M morlock. +4 is no joke. I imagine this would not be limited to the +3 rule, but maybe it would be.

PS Ultimates would still need to roll for KC...KC says nothing about hindering.

clameire

04/28/2004, 13:36

there was NO need, in my opinion, for a new X-MEN TA. We could have gone with the classic X-MEN TA for both classic and ultimates teams. We could even have mixed both together without problems.

Will there be a Brotherhood Ultimate ? No, i doubt it. Will there be an X-Force, a New Mutant ? No, i doubt it. Why the hell is there an X-Men and Ultimate X-Men ? Just to make people like me not able to combine effects of 'classic' with 'ultimate' dials on theme teams ? yaawwwnnn

The logic with making Avengers being generic for Thunderbirds isn't used anymore ? Or is the ultimate universe laking of teams so they needed one team to be "ultimate" centered for this 50-50 expansion ? I think this is the point... Bah...

Anyway, there was no need for a Morlock team also. There is soooo much more important team yet to be made, beginning with the Alpha Flight team.

Please Wizkid, listen to the ones who buy your game...

Anyway, Ultimates TA and Serpent Society TA seems nice. At least, two of four are cool and sweet.

DreadDormammu

04/28/2004, 13:36

Ultimates TA does not ignore Kingdom Come TA

Let's just get that straight. The Ultimates TA reads, "Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

Notice they ignore the effects of hindering terrain. That's all they ignore. The effects of hindering terrain cannot affect their movement, combat, powers or TA. They do not ignore TAs. They ignore the effect of hindering terrain on their TA.

Oh, and Morlocks was a lame choice for a TA. They even said their won't be many Morlocks (thankfully), so why give them a TA? With the other options out there, I really don't see the need for Morlocks. :(

oogie56

04/28/2004, 13:37

The Ta's are pretty good, and I agree that it will make the Ultimates team members really expensive-here comes a 250 pt U-Hulk!! I will also say that we may get the Healer-a morlock who could be the first 9 AV with support, as that is all he does.

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:38

Ultimates DO NOT ignore the KC team

because the KC team ability is not hindering terrain

Cheng

04/28/2004, 13:38

Originally posted by AlgertMan
but the Black Panther haters can shutup about not being able to deal with him

But the Ultimates can't fight Black Panther! ;)

Maniac_nmt

04/28/2004, 13:38

heck ya! Ultimate Cap here we come! Ho-ah!

sniksder

04/28/2004, 13:38

Originally posted by Swiftspeedster
I don't think that's what it means sniksder, it clearly states that they ignore effects of HINDERING TERRAIN on movement , combat, powers and team abilities. KC is not based on hindering terrain, it also says powers so the way you're looking at it they would essentially outwit all of their opponents powers. It clearly states that its based on hindering terrain TA ie. Batman.

Yes you could be right, at work and reading fast, to me guess just another FAQ issue:p

Kid Zemo

04/28/2004, 13:39

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities
What that is saying is that the effects of hindering terrain are ignored. All of hindering terrain's effects - on movement, on powers, on combat, and on team abilities. The last one makes no sense really, but all that is being ignored are the effects of hindering terrain.

Kid Zemo

Rokk_Krinn

04/28/2004, 13:41

Originally posted by Yeti
I SO called the Ultimates TA months ago! Laugh at me and my explanation of spy cam sattelites will you?

Yeah, I know how you feel justified. :) I think all of us who suggested "duplicate TA's" and were mocked because we weren't read the "all new TA"-ad properly feel a little smugger. Snotty of us? Heck, yeah but you have to be at time. ;)

Good call Yeti (I was gambling it would be the "bounty"-style 2000 AD TA though at least it ended up as a TA anyway).

Kurenai

04/28/2004, 13:42

hmm.. this could lead to some interesting effects.. like having a different target declared for Ultimate X-men team, and 2000AD team, wildcards would get the bonus for attacking either target.. more and more wild card fun.

Icymaster Matt

04/28/2004, 13:42

I it just me, or are those the ugliest looking TA symbols in the whole game?

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 13:42

Originally posted by DreadDormammu
Ultimates TA does not ignore Kingdom Come TA

Let's just get that straight. The Ultimates TA reads, "Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

Uh, that's not how I read it. I read that as two segments, the one before and the one after the second "and."

-Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat and powers. (Anti-stealth)

-Members of this team ignore the effects of team abilities. (No declaring me the target of your 2000AD/Ultimate X-Men bump, no making me roll for the Skrull, Danger Girl or KC TA if I want to attack, etc.)

CaptainMarvel

04/28/2004, 13:44

Who cares if they have to roll to base KC?

I am willing to bet that figs like Thor and Ironman are going to have 10 range and some good running shot not to mention the already stated high damage. Who wants to to base when you can rip it up from the outside. I don't see KC TA hindering the Ultimate figs very much.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 13:44

morlocks seem interesting at most...you d have to have your friendlies adjacent to the enemy fig as well, bringing on the pain of a swarm...interesting...still will abide by the Rule of 3 though

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 13:44

"DOOM eats your puny team abilities, and uses them for himself"

TheSpirit

04/28/2004, 13:46

At any time during the game, choose an opposing team or character for this team member

Well, that's a little different than 2000AD, which specified "all team members". Each member gets to pick their own target. Interesting.

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 13:46

I'm stoked about the set as a whole, and three of the new abilities do sound sweet. I also don't see the need for Morlocks, though. They just aren't that interesting.

I'm hoping this doesn't mean we won't see Alpha Flight in this set, and that, like the T-Birds, they'll just share a previously established TA. (X-Men seems like the obvious choice.)

Cheng

04/28/2004, 13:47

Kurenai

04/28/2004, 13:47

Wait.. the Ultimate X-men abiltiy is worded quite a bit differently than 2000AD.. 2000AD sets one target for the entire team, while UXmen can set a different target for each clix w/ the ability... nice.

Rokk_Krinn

04/28/2004, 13:48

IE: The Serpent Society...

Looks like Doom did indeed have a teleportation device in his armour and Gates is with the LSH. ;)

Actually, as sweet as it is to see Sidewinder get some kudos I'm just as thrilled that the snakes are even getting made. I was one of those that totally broke into a huge grin when they got into Overpower and I'm smiling even more now that I see I'll be able to put the Serpents onto an HC team and have them do some good (or evil).

sniksder

04/28/2004, 13:49

Kaitouace

04/28/2004, 13:50

Jeez. They actually wasted space with the Morlocks TA. What's the point? There were only about 10 important Morlocks TOTAL. Of which half people probably don't even remember/know the names of. Plus they're going to waste space probably on Unique Morlocks Storm and Marrow now. Yay.

Serpent Society? Nice way to give them all Phasing/Teleport, etc. so they can keep that slot open for other possible powers like Plasticity or Charge.

Maniac_nmt

04/28/2004, 13:50

i'm seriously looking forward to the new Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk and Ghost Rider (yay! now I can play as the new FF!).

It could only get better if we saw a big fig (ala bat sentry) Hank Pym (who hasn't shown up yet outside the le, wonder of wonders, for such a recognizable Avenger). Plus a new Hawkeye.

Icymaster Matt

04/28/2004, 13:52

These abilities are neat.
And for you Ultimate X-Men hatahs:SHUT UP!
All the other X teams (Gen X,X fac,X force) will all be under the X-men banner. The ult X-men are different. Plus, what would be the point of calling the set "ultimate" when there would be only one ultimate comic team?

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 13:55

Originally posted by Cheng
Wow, with interpretation like that, you'll never get nominated for the Supreme Court!

That would allow them to ignore all TA's. Somehow, I doubt that's the intended effect...

I'm guessing it is. I think if the entire point of the ability was to ignore the effects of hindering terrain on your rolls then it would read more similarly to the wording of the Team Superman ability. Why even mention TAs?

It may seem like nitpicking, but the second "and" would denote that the previous list is over and a new one is beginning. Otherwise, it would likely read "the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, powers and team abilities."

My money's on the power ignoring the effects of other TAs until I officially read otherwise.

BigSoph

04/28/2004, 13:55

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

READ IT AGAIN (whoops, capslock)

Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

New Warrior

04/28/2004, 13:56

Im dissapointed that there is no New Warriors team ability. But there is always next set, plus Ghost Rider can still get FF team ability. I hope the Punisher borrows some team abilities like Spiral and Taskmaster. Sucks that we didnt get Marrow with the Morlocks team, but with the plus 1 ability I think they are going to bl0w. I also dont like the Serphant Society. They are taking away valuable space for Howard the Duck with the power cosmic.

DarkKnight316

04/28/2004, 13:57

While I'm happy about Serpent Society, I can't believe Ult. X-Men and Morlocks got team abilities before: Alpha Flight, Thunderbolts, Midnight Sons or even the Inhumans. This is ridiculous. How many decent Morlocks could there be anyway. Here is hoping the above mentioned all get team abilities in the future.

Oh, and is there any chance we'll get a sneak peek today? If so I hope for Ghost Rider or someone non- Ultimate we have not confirmed.

Cheng

04/28/2004, 13:57

Originally posted by Eric Rage
I'm guessing it is. I think if the entire point of the ability was to ignore the effects of hindering terrain on your rolls then it would read more similarly to the wording of the Team Superman ability. Why even mention TAs?

It may seem like nitpicking, but the second "and" would denote that the previous list is over and a new one is beginning. Otherwise, it would likely read "the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, powers and team abilities."

My money's on the power ignoring the effects of other TAs until I officially read otherwise.

The current wording of the Superman TA is exactly the same.

Cheng

04/28/2004, 13:59

Scratch that - it says "abilities" not "team abilities." But the two ands are in there, just the same.

SumYungGai

04/28/2004, 13:59

Originally posted by Kaitouace
Jeez. They actually wasted space with the Morlocks TA. What's the point? There were only about 10 important Morlocks TOTAL.

I imagine that there will be generic REV Morlocks. The rookies and Exps will probably have some throwaway power like shape change or plasiticity, while the Vets might have a combat power. Their AVs would be low, but using a swarm will make them more combat viable.

Hmm, cheap tie up pieces with plasticity and the morlock power sounds pretty good actually. If the Vets had poison, they could make for a scary swarm.

Ro-gan

04/28/2004, 14:00

Bring on my case of Ultimates, baby!!!!

Gentlegamer

04/28/2004, 14:00

MORE FOR DOOM!

ahole_derby

04/28/2004, 14:04

The Ultimates wording is the same as the Superman TA. When they wrote "and powers and team abilities", it's only because they are grouping team abilities almost as a sub-set of powers, within the structure of the sentence. It is not written to mean there is a "break in the sentence" in order to introduce the "second part of the sentence".

Furthermore, the description goes on to say:

This team ability is often called “anti-Stealth” because it is best known for use against hidden characters. But it is also useful for grounded characters, who will not have to stop in hindering terrain during their Running Shot or Charge attacks!

They do not describe the TA as "anti-everything"

Cheng

04/28/2004, 14:08

Originally posted by ahole_derby
The Ultimates wording is the same as the Superman TA. When they wrote "and powers and team abilities", it's only because they are grouping team abilities almost as a sub-set of powers, within the structure of the sentence. It is not written to mean there is a "break in the sentence" in order to introduce the "second part of the sentence".

Furthermore, the description goes on to say:

This team ability is often called “anti-Stealth” because it is best known for use against hidden characters. But it is also useful for grounded characters, who will not have to stop in hindering terrain during their Running Shot or Charge attacks!

They do not describe the TA as "anti-everything"

Not to mention the fact that they say two TA's are new to Marvel, and two are new to Hero Clix. Since Morloks and Serpent Society are new to Hero Clix...

Kaitouace

04/28/2004, 14:09

Originally posted by SumYungGai
I imagine that there will be generic REV Morlocks. The rookies and Exps will probably have some throwaway power like shape change or plasiticity, while the Vets might have a combat power. Their AVs would be low, but using a swarm will make them more combat viable.

Hmm, cheap tie up pieces with plasticity and the morlock power sounds pretty good actually. If the Vets had poison, they could make for a scary swarm.

That's what I've heard but that's ridiculous. There are no "generic" Morlocks. Well I guess I can see it working but it still doesn't sound quite right. I don't see the Morlocks in the same vein as Mole Men or Hand Ninjas. There may have been a bunch of no-name Morlocks but they all were different with different names and in some cases different powers. But I suppose you could have a "generic ugly mutant" with Stealth and maybe Poison for the smell.

Plus I'm sure characters like Masque and Plague (if they're in the set) will have Poison and that will work well with the TA. Plus there are some Morlock bricks that probably wouldn't have much of an attack value that would benefit from the power (like Caliban and Sunder). Particularly Caliban as his Exp and Vet could also BCF. Same for Calisto, Feral, and or Thornn.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 14:09

on another note about the Ultimate TA, it says it ignores powers and TAs, does that mean upon combat, they d ignore the impervious, toughness, invulnerability? even supersenses?

just curious...new things overwhelme me :laugh:

Yong

04/28/2004, 14:09

1) maybe they'll do the bald pre-x-men marrow. they'd kinda have to, there aren't too many memorable morlocks to work with :ermm:
2) anyone else feel the morlock icon should be a manhole cover?:p

Yong

04/28/2004, 14:11

i also wonder if they'll rework the sentinel rules to include morlock members.

XocgX

04/28/2004, 14:11

lancellot, they mean in reference to hindering terrain, so any power that utizlizes hindering terrain is ignored, not any power at all.

sinisterdoom

04/28/2004, 14:13

morlocks ####!!!

There claim to fame was getting slaughtered by the marauders.

I hope Sinister is in this set just to recreate that shining moment in Morlock history.

lukebuchanan

04/28/2004, 14:13

Man, that SS ability is going to eat some people alive. No big shocks here, the Morlock ability would have been infinetly more powerful had it not come post NAAT. Ah well, the Ultimates TA has me puzzled and I completely agree that the Ultimate X-Men did not need a new ability. Just takes up space. Then again, I'm not going to collect the Ultimate figs, just regular continuity ones.

Go Serpent Society Doom!

Luke B. Snake Charmin'

lancelot

04/28/2004, 14:14

actually, the Ultimates ignore HT AND powers/TAs...

chowdah

04/28/2004, 14:14

gee now the Morlock team ability would have worked good for MOE....too bad they still have junk team ability =(

...no love for MOE =(

GianSingir

04/28/2004, 14:14

Well, no Mystics for Ghost Rider... :(

Cell

04/28/2004, 14:15

Serpent society gets the coolest TA IMO... Superman TA for Ultimates isnt that big of a deal thanks to a lack of a perma stealth TA... the 2000 AD for UXmen is nice, Its a good TA overall, and the Morlock one is interesting, but unpsectacular....

SimonMoon5

04/28/2004, 14:16

Eh, there goes the neighborhood.

The Superman team ability used to be fairly exclusive. And Wizkids just wouldn't put out any inexpensive Superman allies. In fact, there aren't too many Superman allies apart from all the Supermen (just Steel, Supergirl, and Maxima).

And now, an ability (X-Ray Vision) that is uniquely DC is going to be all over the place in Marvel? What the ****? Gah.

I mean, sure it's great to have more X-Ray Vision characters to deal with all those stealth teams. But they shouldn't be Marvel characters. From a flavor standpoint, this is just awful.

tyroclix

04/28/2004, 14:17

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities.

Well it's a great way to give Ultimate Hulk Charge and some degree of Leap/Climb (can't change elevation since it doesn't include Blocking Terrain).

I'm looking forward to a 230 point Close-Combat beast (5 damage + CCE?)

Cheng

04/28/2004, 14:21

Originally posted by lancelot
actually, the Ultimates ignore HT AND powers/TAs...

Sigh... Do we all need an English lesson here?

"Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

The effects of hindering terrain only!!

Read the Superman Ally TA, it is worded the same way!

Rictor

04/28/2004, 14:21

4 new TA for Marvel just means a lot of new posibilities.

Ultimates TA is like they're getting all support form Ultimate SHIELD, you know, all technology to find enemies and of course the quick response/attack is represented as well, I just hope to see a Giant Man big figure with this TA.

My guessing on Ultimate charachters: Cap (of course), Thor, Wasp, Black Widow, Hawkeye.

Ultimate X-men TA is sweet, I see it a lot more useful than the actual X-men TA, how many times you roll for a number and just reach 1 less???

My guessing: Storm and Wolvie (of course again) Cyclops, Prof X, Rogue. Ultimate Dazzler will be my most desirable but hardly they make her for a while.

Morlocks TA sounds like a lot of cheap figures hitting in a bunch, of course ordinary morlocks are out of question and more of them with Stealth.

Guessing: Callisto, Masque, Artie & Leech and why not some Marauders (Yeah I know I dream a lot here)

Serpent Society TA this sounds totally cool, can you imagine Dr. Doom slippering trough all enemies and then hitting hard from above???

Guessing: Asp, Black Mamba, Bushmaster, Death Adder and Sidewinder looks like great figures for sculpts.
for all that don't know about Serpents look at this link:
www.classicmarvel.com/cast_serpent.htm

Hope to see pictures form Ultimates soon.

daedalus25

04/28/2004, 14:22

Originally posted by lancelot
actually, the Ultimates ignore HT AND powers/TAs...

actually no, they just ignore Hindering Terrain

I can see how the bad grammar MIGHT have one believe they ignore Team Abilities, but in no way can it be interpreted that they ignore powers.

The bottom line is that this is the Marvel Superman ability, and they just ignore Hindering Terrain for everything.

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 14:22

Originally posted by ahole_derby
The Ultimates wording is the same as the Superman TA. When they wrote "and powers and team abilities", it's only because they are grouping team abilities almost as a sub-set of powers, within the structure of the sentence. It is not written to mean there is a "break in the sentence" in order to introduce the "second part of the sentence".

Yeah, upon further review I spoke too soon and am in your camp, too. Team Superman for Marvel it is.

I always thought the Team Superman and Team Batman abilities were kind of the yin/yang of the DC Universe. The Team Supes ability is rare, but it's there to keep the perma-stealth in check. The fact that most of said perma-stealthed characters had Outwit, kinda helped to keep the powerful Kryptonians who could cancel out their Stealth in check.

Seems kinda weird for Marvel, but I'm withholding judgement until I see the figures in my hands.

Canada Maestro

04/28/2004, 14:22

Originally posted by thugit
Not complaining, but why would the Ultimates TA be X-Ray vision?

Doesn't make sense.

My working theory is that it incorporates the SHIELD eye in the sky factor. I see it as while the Ultimates are doing battle the SHIELD carriers high above use all their fancy SHIELD technology to help coordinate them, helping them to attack and move more efficiently. It's a stretch but it's what I'm going with for now.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 14:24

Originally posted by Cheng
Sigh... Do we all need an English lesson here?

"Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

The effects of hindering terrain only!!

Read the Superman Ally TA, it is worded the same way!

chill, cheng, CHILL.

there are TWO and's in that sentence.

i know how the Superman Ally TA works.

then, since you're such the English Professor you are, what's the application of "team abilities" in the description? Jog my memory, I'm stuck at work, I can't just pull out my PAC.

mattsolo

04/28/2004, 14:25

Batman meet Ulitmate Captian America, he now owns you.

tyroclix

04/28/2004, 14:26

actually, the Ultimates ignore HT AND powers/TAs...

I was wondering when someone was going to say that.

I highly doubt that is what it is saying - especially with the anti-stealth reference in the description. But do we really need the same amount of threads discussing this that there were for Suicide Squad and KC? I agree it could have been worded a little more clearly.

The TA grants the ability to ignore hindering terrain. What follows next are the situations where you ignore HT.

There is no way you can turn read the sentence to say:

Grants the ability to ignore:
Hindering terrain on movement and attacks
and Powers
and Team Abilities

"ignore hindering terrain" is stuck together - they just should have been a little clearer.

Cheng

04/28/2004, 14:27

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
Eh, there goes the neighborhood.

The Superman team ability used to be fairly exclusive. And Wizkids just wouldn't put out any inexpensive Superman allies. In fact, there aren't too many Superman allies apart from all the Supermen (just Steel, Supergirl, and Maxima).

And now, an ability (X-Ray Vision) that is uniquely DC is going to be all over the place in Marvel? What the ****? Gah.

I mean, sure it's great to have more X-Ray Vision characters to deal with all those stealth teams. But they shouldn't be Marvel characters. From a flavor standpoint, this is just awful.

I think others have provided reasonable justification for this earlier in the thread. It's not X-Ray vision, it's SHIELD support and Iron Man technology accomplishing the same thing - what the military calls SA: Situational Awareness.

I don't think (or hope) it will be that cheap, and it will probably be pretty exclusive - the Ultimates roster isn't that big (at least no yet). And Marvel doesn't seem to have that many cheap wildcards (like the Legion of Super Heroes).

oseefus1

04/28/2004, 14:29

is the ultamates prety much superman and phycickblast/exploit weekness that ignors teem abblilities

Cheng

04/28/2004, 14:31

Originally posted by lancelot
chill, cheng, CHILL.

there are TWO and's in that sentence.

i know how the Superman Ally TA works.

then, since you're such the English Professor you are, what's the application of "team abilities" in the description? Jog my memory, I'm stuck at work, I can't just pull out my PAC.

Sure you can, if you're on the Internet. I just opened the Wizkids site in another window. The only difference is the DC PAC says "powers and abilities" and the Ultimates description says "powers and team abilities." I think that's just a clarification, since "abilities" was really referring to TA's. It just means you ignore Batman and Kabuki abilities.

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 14:33

Originally posted by Cheng
I don't think (or hope) it will be that cheap, and it will probably be pretty exclusive - the Ultimates roster isn't that big (at least no yet). And Marvel doesn't seem to have that many cheap wildcards (like the Legion of Super Heroes).

THAT we can agree on.

Anytime I see a new TA I immediately start to worry how it will effect the Wildcard situation. Well, I doubt an Ultimate figure will come cheaper than 66 points (R Steel...duh), so I don't see someone throwing in Ultimate Cap and his 100+ points during an Open game just to bust Stealth.

Cell

04/28/2004, 14:35

No, Ulitmates does not give characters Exploit Weakness and Psychic Blast... That would be the most powerfulll TA Ever in existance.... Its simply the Superman TA nothing more. People need to realiza this

Cant wait for some Serpent Society members with Phasing/Flurry and Blades :)

theSHOWDOWN

04/28/2004, 14:35

Originally posted by Wasteland
Mmmm Anti-Stealth for Marvel

Think this means that Marvel will eventually get a stealth TA (Midnight Suns or Marvel Knights?)
'
The first TA, Morlocks, is eh...only up to plus 2, not "huge swarm plusses" they say. But +2 can be nice.

Ugh. Ultimate X-men. I like the TA, cuz all the judges got it. I was just hoping for something other than Ultimate X-Men, so that we don't get a rehash of a billion and a half figures done so far.

Serpent Society will be annoying. Never have to break away, can ignore everyone and everything on movement. Could be scary on the right figures.

Ooh...drools over the prospect of a Marvel Knights Elektra with Charge/Stealth, and Flurry/BCF/Stealth, and MC/Stealth...MWAHAHAHA! Ohh...wait...they haven't made it yet. Oh, that's right! They made the Morlocks instead? Baa!

Who are some Serpent Society characters, anyway?

ahole_derby

04/28/2004, 14:35

The second "and" in the sentence is used like an ampersand ("&"). It simply serves to connect/unite/relate the word "powers" and the words "team abilities". Either that, or the first "and" was inserted by mistake. It is poorly written and made overly complicated. There's be no need for half of the explantions and clarifications in the FAQs, if they would simply learn to write. Then again, it would probably mean whoever writes the FAQs at Wizkids would be out of a job (or at least paid less).

The Ultimates TA is described as "anti-stealth" (which is what the Superman TA is). That, and the fact that they specify that of the 4 new TAs, 2 are new to Marvel and 2 are brand new, leads one to believe that the Ultimates TA already exists in Heroclix outside of Marvel.

Basil Elks

04/28/2004, 14:38

Wow!, Alot has happened since I was last here.

daedalus25

04/28/2004, 14:41

Originally posted by Cheng
And Marvel doesn't seem to have that many cheap wildcards (like the Legion of Super Heroes).

Just Exp. Black Cat, LE Rita DeMara, LE Matt Murdock, Universe Spider-Man, Vet IC Daredevil, LE Clint Barton, LE Natasha Romanoff, Doombots, and the cheapest Wildcard of all time: Mary Jane Watson!!

Hehe but seriously, yeah I don't think it'll be much of a problem. Superman ability is pretty expensive, so the Ultimates are likely going to mostly be in the 100+ range. Although I do predict a lot of Ultimate Wasps on future teams...

AlgertMan

04/28/2004, 14:44

dear lord

i dont know if i should insult half of you

or punch half of you

webhead817

04/28/2004, 14:56

I'm thinking Taskmaster just joined up with the Serpent Society full time...as did Rasputin...

Hack-n-slash

04/28/2004, 14:58

Actually, I just drew it out...you can have up to +4 (capped at +3 I guess)...so this could be huge.

How?

123
4X6
789

2 and 4 are not adjacent, as 1 and X block LOS/LOF.
1 and X are not adjacent, as 2 and 4 block LOS/LOF.
etc...

So...

2
4X6

or

123
X

Seems about as good as it gets, at +2 for #2 either way.

Or am I missing something?

**

Also, the "ignores all TA's" interpretation on the Ultimates TA
is rather funny. You'd turn it on and it would ignore itself. :p

kitsunekaboom

04/28/2004, 15:01

Morlocks become less useful when the Rule of 3 pops up, but in general I don't like them at all. We should have had midnight sons!!!!!!!!

Greenandgold

04/28/2004, 15:01

supergoblin

04/28/2004, 15:02

Well rasputain is lower than a snakes belly so it kinda works.
And Taskmaster, I think he's worked with every villain team in marvel so that works. I just want know how to justifie hellboy, le supergirl, and the Legion of superheros working with them. You gat to love a brick that can walk through walls.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 15:05

Originally posted by Hack-n-slash
How?

123
4X6
789

2 and 4 are not adjacent, as 1 and X block LOS/LOF.
1 and X are not adjacent, as 2 and 4 block LOS/LOF.
etc...

So...

2
4X6

or

123
X

Seems about as good as it gets, at +2 for #2 either way.

Or am I missing something?

**

Also, the "ignores all TA's" interpretation on the Ultimates TA
is rather funny. You'd turn it on and it would ignore itself. :p

you can get +4 if the Rule of 3 wasnt in effect this way:

f=friendlies
m=morlock
e=enemy

fmf
fef

as it is 4 of the friendlies are adjacent to both your morlock and the enemy, but really +3 will be the max...

and thanks ahole_derby for clearing it, you too cheng. i get it now, thanks!

Greenandgold

04/28/2004, 15:05

Doombots everywhere! A new phasing taxi that also has multiple ways to give you attack bonuses.

R Taskmaster as well.

Greenandgold

04/28/2004, 15:07

All Hail Puppet Master! Muhahahahaha :grin:

BigSoph

04/28/2004, 15:07

Superman Ally: This character ignores the effects of hindering terrain (including team abilities that give hindering terrain bonuses) on movement, combat, and powers and abilities.

Note, other than the addition and clairification of abilities as team abilities...

So if Ultimates has this "ignore all powers and team abilities" as some people seem to think, so does Superman.

And that means OWAW Superman is immune to Pulse Wave, Psychic Blast, Exploit Weakness, Outwit, Perplex.

WOO-HOO! I am makin' a Superman team!

Oh, the Morlocks ability is what I figured a while back SHOULD have been the Apokolips team (Parademon swarm anyone?)

SpakSpang

04/28/2004, 15:07

I think many of you are jumping to conclusion on the Ultimates team ability.

It says it ignores the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, power, and team abilities.

Which means.

Ultimates ignore effects of hindering terrain when moving.
AKA: Ultimates don't lose distance moved when starting on hindering terrain...so you can be hulk and charge out of hindering terrainn for half still.

During Combat. No character gets the +1 boost for being in hindering terrain or have hinder terrain between a ranged combat attack.

Ignores Powers. It ignores stealth.

Ignores Team abilities. It ignores team abilities that give hindering terrain bonus. So it ignores the Batman team ability. However does not ignore the KC team ability BECAUSE THAT DOES NOT GIVE A HINDERING TERRAIN BONUS.

Thank you.

KC Superman will still rock.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 15:08

Originally posted by supergoblin
Well rasputain is lower than a snakes belly so it kinda works.
And Taskmaster, I think he's worked with every villain team in marvel so that works. I just want know how to justifie hellboy, le supergirl, and the Legion of superheros working with them. You gat to love a brick that can walk through walls.

hmm, "all character and terrain" includes the blocking terrain, such as walls? wowza...

webhead817

04/28/2004, 15:08

hack n slash...put the enemy fig at position 8, making positions 4, 6, 7 and 9 adjacent.

Rasputin and Taskmaster are nice with Serpent Society because they have stealth...look what Stealth/Leap&Climb has done for Bats and co....

Arclight

04/28/2004, 15:08

Some Serpent Society off the top of my head: Anaconda - super strength with constricting arms; Death Adder- silent poisonous agile clawed attacker; Diamond Back - some chick in a pink outfit; Sidewinder - phasing freak. there's more...

Mr. Pilkington

04/28/2004, 15:08

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but does anyone else expect to see teams with a Morlock, a Mary Jane pog and a flying figure with Charge? The flier charges up carrying MJ who copies the Morlock power for an inexpensive +1 to hit.

Oooooh! And Kilowog/Hal Jordan would work great with 4 morlocks. Have the GL Charge up and place the Morlocks like this:

MTM
MGM

Where M=Morlock, T=Target and G=GL with Charge. Instant +4 to hit on the charge.

BoosterGold

04/28/2004, 15:10

What if a wildcard copies the ultimate xmen ability and declares say, Brotherhood. Then the next action that wildcard copies the avengers ability. Then back to ultimate xmen. Does the initial team/figure that the wildcard declared still apply or does it get to choose again? Seeing as how the last turn it was an avenger and just became ultimate xmen the current turn.

Cell

04/28/2004, 15:11

Doesnt Clobbering Time rotate out once Ultimates rotates in? Why do people worry about cheap wild card then? Or about Dr Doom abusing these new powers? They wont be arround to enjoy em :confused:

supergoblin

04/28/2004, 15:12

uhm that doesn't work Mr. P because it is the atcker that needs to be morlock.

webhead817

04/28/2004, 15:13

Originally posted by BoosterGold
What if a wildcard copies the ultimate xmen ability and declares say, Brotherhood. Then the next action that wildcard copies the avengers ability. Then back to ultimate xmen. Does the initial team/figure that the wildcard declared still apply or does it get to choose again? Seeing as how the last turn it was an avenger and just became ultimate xmen the current turn.

This doesn't work...you only get to choose once.

However, conceivably a wildcard could switch back and forth between Ultimate X-Men and 2000AD and receive two different bonuses.

Mr. Pilkington

04/28/2004, 15:14

Ignore my last post here about pogs and GL Morlocks. I was mis-reading the TA. Though it was a CC version of Hydra/Police, but it isn't quite. Since the Morlock figure gets the bonus it doesn't work out the way I was thinking.

Hack-n-slash

04/28/2004, 15:17

fmf
fef

Erm... to repeat my point:

M is only adjacent to the upper left & right corners.

M is not adjacent to the bottom left & right corners,
as the enemy model and upper corners block LOS/LOF.

Mr. Pilkington

04/28/2004, 15:19

LOS/LOF and Adjacency are totally different concepts. True you cannot draw LOF, but they are still adjacent.

Bob

04/28/2004, 15:22

Soooo.....

How does Ultimate TA stack up against Galactus and Power Cosmic TA?

Greenandgold

04/28/2004, 15:22

dj_sha

04/28/2004, 15:23

Morlocks is a disappointment. Don't know much about the Serpent Society, but they sound cool. Ultimate X-Men has a cool TA, but is probably a waste of a TA. Ultimates just rocks.

One thought on the Ult X-Men TA. If one of the members has support, can they declare the TA on a TA and get +1 when healing a figure with that TA?

Greenandgold

04/28/2004, 15:23

Sorry, it won't let me edit Mr. P. I see you've already caught.

Redleg

04/28/2004, 15:26

I like the new team abilities...and I also feel they only add value to the way Marvel plays ( Unlike DC TAs that exist for abuse and unimaginative play ;) )

Stealth is a great power and sets the tone/tempo of many fights (especially with NAAT)...it's good to see balance swing in favor of the attacker.

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 15:29

Originally posted by Mr. Pilkington
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but does anyone else expect to see teams with a Morlock, a Mary Jane pog and a flying figure with Charge? The flier charges up carrying MJ who copies the Morlock power for an inexpensive +1 to hit.

Once again, why I hate the freakin' pogs.

Why does WizKids feels compelled to take a great power that can change the course of the game (Perplex, Defend) or a powerful team ability (Team Batman) and make it available as cheaply as possible (Con Artist, Invisible Girl, Alfred)? The only reason I can see for doing this is to put the game in the hands of the lowest common denominator; players who don't have the savvy to build strong teams w/o resorting to this.

If someone can logically explain to me why Kara Zor-El should get a +2 on her Charge b/c she's teamed w/Callisto and is carting Mary Jane Parker w/her as she runs up on someone, then I'm all ears.

(I won't even ask why Hellboy should get Perma-Stealth b/c Alfred's standing in one of the lower-bottom corners of the map.)

skeevo666

04/28/2004, 15:29

Originally posted by AlgertMan
dear lord

i dont know if i should insult half of you

or punch half of you

Neither are good choices for someone with 13 warning points . . .

Ed0825

04/28/2004, 15:30

Well, now as far as heroclix goes, I guess we found out who would win between Cap and the Bat. Ultimate Cap hands down. Of course I am going to have to remove all the ultimate figures from their bases and replace them with the Real Marvel Universe ones. I pray they don't do any more Ultimate sculpts of Spidey villians though.

Cool team Abilites, just wish they hadn't wasted 2 on Ultimate Universe characters.

Thorgrin

04/28/2004, 15:30

Don't forget vet XP daredevil, taskmasters, doombots, SPIRAL, etc.....

Originally posted by daedalus25
Just Exp. Black Cat, LE Rita DeMara, LE Matt Murdock, Universe Spider-Man, Vet IC Daredevil, LE Clint Barton, LE Natasha Romanoff, Doombots, and the cheapest Wildcard of all time: Mary Jane Watson!!

Hehe but seriously, yeah I don't think it'll be much of a problem. Superman ability is pretty expensive, so the Ultimates are likely going to mostly be in the 100+ range. Although I do predict a lot of Ultimate Wasps on future teams...

Eric Rage

04/28/2004, 15:33

Originally posted by Redleg
Stealth is a great power and sets the tone/tempo of many fights (especially with NAAT)...it's good to see balance swing in favor of the attacker.

You make a good point. One of the advantages of Stealth-busting is that it is another weapon against the Turtle. If nothing else, the Turtle is going to have to be a little aggressive and take out the provider of the Ultimate or Team Superman ability if they plan on digging in w/o getting wrecked from range.

Panther Cult

04/28/2004, 15:33

Originally posted by Hack-n-slash
Erm... to repeat my point:

M is only adjacent to the upper left & right corners.

M is not adjacent to the bottom left & right corners,
as the enemy model and upper corners block LOS/LOF.

Looks like you need to bust out the rule book again.

Adjacency has nothing to do with LOS/LOF. And, the team ability clearly indicates the characters have to be adjacent. The TA does not say the characters must have line of sight.

So, the TA could conceivably give you up to a +4 to attack, though the Rule of 3 would seem to limit the bonus to 3 anyway.

Thorgrin

04/28/2004, 15:33

Uhm, because Wizkids has not officially retired it (unlike parts of IC)... On top of that, unrestricted events...

Originally posted by Cell
Doesnt Clobbering Time rotate out once Ultimates rotates in? Why do people worry about cheap wild card then? Or about Dr Doom abusing these new powers? They wont be arround to enjoy em :confused:

freakazoid_x

04/28/2004, 15:36

The logos for the Morlocks and Serpent Society look ridiculous.

Thorgrin

04/28/2004, 15:37

That's a little presumptious.. After all, you have no idea what Cap's stats are. He could become the next vet Hawkeye for all you know...

Originally posted by Ed0825
Well, now as far as heroclix goes, I guess we found out who would win between Cap and the Bat. Ultimate Cap hands down. Of course I am going to have to remove all the ultimate figures from their bases and replace them with the Real Marvel Universe ones. I pray they don't do any more Ultimate sculpts of Spidey villians though.

Cool team Abilites, just wish they hadn't wasted 2 on Ultimate Universe characters.

Hack-n-slash

04/28/2004, 15:38

LOS/LOF and Adjacency are totally different concepts. True you cannot draw LOF, but they are still adjacent.

I thought that adjacent figures "counted as" blocking terrain?

Mr. Pilkington

04/28/2004, 15:42

chuckkim00

04/28/2004, 15:43

Actually, the morlocks ability could be very cool, especially if and when the Morlocks get worn down late in the game. If the Morlocks have some low-point characters, they could make great cannon fodder. This could be expecially fun during a sealed tournament!
The Ultimates team ability sounds really powerful. I haven't really played too much with the Indyclix, so I'm not sure how that team ability works. I'm not that impressed with the Society ability.
So, who will the new Morlocks be? I'm hoping Callisto and Plague, at least. She'd probably have incapacitate. Caliban would make the perfect R/E/V. There's actually a lot of Morlocks, but a lot of them weren't so hot. I'd rather have had the Marauders.

Cell

04/28/2004, 15:43

That's a little presumptious.. After all, you have no idea what Cap's stats are. He could become the next vet Hawkeye for all you know...

Especially since the Ultimates ability is soo expensive, and we already know Veteran Caps points... I suspect he will be slighly underpowered and alot of people will complain about lack of Impervious, or no 4 Damage or multiple clicks of CCE or Outwit ect ect :devious:

adamical

04/28/2004, 15:48

It seems to me that in every set where a new team ability is introfuced, a Wild Card TA should get more expensive. The more TA'S there are, the more potential uses there are for a Spider-Man or Doom ability. These four new TA's should make a wild card TA like an extra point per click or more, but it probably won't affect the cost of a team ability. I think it was ridiculous to make low cost and generic Wild Cards; when Vet Spider-man and Ultron were able to copy abilities, fair enough. R Doombots and R Live Wires?? Nothing like a couple of rookie live wires with an intergang agent and an alfred pog.

Thorgrin

04/28/2004, 15:48

lol, no doubt! Until I see some stats, I'm not going to assume that the Ultimate Captain America can even take on a vampire lackey, much less bats...

Originally posted by Cell
Especially since the Ultimates ability is soo expensive, and we already know Veteran Caps points... I suspect he will be slighly underpowered and alot of people will complain about lack of Impervious, or no 4 Damage or multiple clicks of CCE or Outwit ect ect :devious:

CaptainMarvel

04/28/2004, 15:49

I find it very difficult that they will under power Cap again.

How much it the team ability? Do we know. Even if the ability is 23pts he is still going to be around 80 pts of stats and powers I'd say he can be represented very well for that cost.

BoosterGold

04/28/2004, 15:53

Yep. Right around 80 pts...just like Bats. I think they'll be evenly matched. I don't think he'll "own" Bats at all. Just take away his steath protection. Bats is still tough even without hiding in the bushes.

Hack-n-slash

04/28/2004, 15:53

Adjacent figures count as blocking terrain for LOF only. Since adjacency does not draw LOF then the other figures won't effect it. Only soaring, differing elevations, or true blocking terrain (including diagonals of Barriers) break adjacency.

I see that... (aren't PDF wonderful)

We've been playing that rather incorrectly...

We haven't been requiring breakaways or close combat attacks accross a 'blocked' diagonal like that.

That would've changed things in a few games...

Cuz

04/28/2004, 15:53

Morlocks: When it makes a close combat attack, a member of this team gets +1 to its attack value for each friendly character that is both adjacent to this team member and the target character.

I wonder if they'll change this to add Support. If so, and if Morlocks get a character with Support, it might get real fun quick. Put two of these Healers next to each other and when someone comes in for a quick tap on the shoulder, hoopla +2 on attack!

Drashia

04/28/2004, 16:04

Morlocks over Alpha Flight? Shameful

the abilities aren't bad. As for Cap Am, looks like he's in the 103 area (unless that's not his real dial shown)

Dr. Morbius

04/28/2004, 16:05

2 stupid Ultimat Universe TAs and no Midnight Sons?!? Geez.... :disappoin

I hope they really did make a GR with the FF TA *sigh*
but honestly...I doubt it.

Serpent Society and Morlocks are very cool, though :)

Unlike many players on this forum...I play just for fun...and only theme teams. I ouldn't care less about the Ultimate Universe , so I'll have lots of trade fodder (and I could swear 100% of the uniques I will pull will be Ultimate carp).

Yeti

04/28/2004, 16:05

My bets for Caps starting click
Charge, Incap, Willpower, Exploitweakness with a 10 mov, 11 AV, 16 Def, and 2 damage.

With the TA that charging through the bushes thing could be very very cool.

Cell

04/28/2004, 16:08

Charge, Incap, Willpower, Exploitweakness with a 10 mov, 11 AV, 16 Def, and 2 damage.

I suspect Caps will have a 10 AV, no more, and will have Leadership at some point... but thats just a guess. Hes going to be a slight upgrade from his IC version but not by a whole lot...

skeevo666

04/28/2004, 16:10

Originally posted by freakazoid_x
The logos for the Morlocks and Serpent Society look ridiculous.

If you've ever seen the BBC TV adaption of Douglas Adams' The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy the Morlocks logo looks suspiciously familiar . . . .

Panther Cult

04/28/2004, 16:15

So, now I'm wondering if they'll pull a Baron Zemo on poor Callisto. Slap her face on the dials as the symbol of the team ability and then not include the character in the set...

They couldn't do that to us again, could they?

lukebuchanan

04/28/2004, 16:15

Originally posted by Dr. Morbius
2 stupid Ultimat Universe TAs and no Midnight Sons?!? Geez.... :disappoin

I hope they really did make a GR with the FF TA *sigh*
but honestly...I doubt it.

Serpent Society and Morlocks are very cool, though :)

Unlike many players on this forum...I play just for fun...and only theme teams. I ouldn't care less about the Ultimate Universe , so I'll have lots of trade fodder (and I could swear 100% of the uniques I will pull will be Ultimate carp).

You just hit the nail on the head there brother!

Luke B. Old School

theSHOWDOWN

04/28/2004, 16:16

Well, Cap and U HT Batman (ironically) cost the exact same amount - 103.

I would expect a 10 attack, 6 range, 2 arrows, late-dial Toughness, and the exact same damage and attack numbers as Batman. You make up the point difference by Cap not having so much Outwit, not having the Leap/Climb power, not *starting* with Outwit, and not having as much Willpower. My guess is this

Cheng

04/28/2004, 16:19

Why all the hate for the Ultimate universe? A lot of people, myself included, think it's some of the best writing Marvel has had in years. And it brought a lot of new readers to Marvel - so to ignore it in Hero Clix would be a shame.

Panther Cult

04/28/2004, 16:19

And Boneyard's list confirms that neither the Serpent Society or Morlocks will suffer the fate of the Masters of Evil.

Both "face" characters are now confirmed to be in the set.

theSHOWDOWN

04/28/2004, 16:19

Well, Cap and U HT Batman (ironically) cost the exact same amount - 103.

I would expect almost the exact same numbers. I'm guessing Cap will find room for the Ultimates ability by trimming some Outwit and Willpower and the second arrow. Hopefully Cap will start with RS/17ESD/2RCE and eventually go into Charge/Toughness/2CCE.

IhopeIhopeIhope...

theSHOWDOWN

04/28/2004, 16:23

whoops! That's what happens when you mistakenly hit Enter instead of Shift

Funky Jett

04/28/2004, 16:29

Originally posted by skeevo666
If you've ever seen the BBC TV adaption of Douglas Adams' The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy the Morlocks logo looks suspiciously familiar . . . .
Actually, I was thinking it looked like Ziggy Stardust with a patch.

And of course, the Serpent Society looks just like one of the Scooby Doo villians... ;)

RealRaven

04/28/2004, 16:32

If there is an Ultimate Quicksilver with HSS, he'll be immune to hindering terrain, no?

Cheng

04/28/2004, 16:34

Originally posted by RealRaven
If there is an Ultimate Quicksilver with HSS, he'll be immune to hindering terrain, no?

Good point - that would be quite an upgrade for him.

darkkrisp

04/28/2004, 16:36

GroovyBoy

04/28/2004, 16:37

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

Re-reread it snik: Ultimates ignore the effects of HINDERING TERRAIN on... TEAM ABILITIES.

The Kingdom Come TA has nothing to do with hindering terrain. It's simply a roll you have to make to move adjacent to them...

deathsythe

04/28/2004, 16:40

I'ld love to see quicksilver with hypersonic speed, even just 2 clicks of it. I know the Ultimate team ability will be a lot but I doubt they'll screw up cap. My only problem with him in the first place was that his stats dropped to fast for someone who was usually the last one standing. Plus a little better damage in the way of either higher damage, cce, or ew.

Rokk_Krinn

04/28/2004, 16:41

Originally posted by Panther Cult
And Boneyard's list confirms that neither the Serpent Society or Morlocks will suffer the fate of the Masters of Evil.

Both "face" characters are now confirmed to be in the set.

That's a bit of a shame when you think about it - Sidewinder (the face character for the Serpent Society) is already represented by the TA. Considering his main ability is teleportation that takes care of the majority of his dial - guess you could maybe have a click or two of Leadership and maybe a short range (possibly Pulse Wave or EE) to represent those wild squiggly "side-effects" blasts he fired from his cowl. Nontheless, it seems a waste to have him. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong. :)

lukebuchanan

04/28/2004, 16:43

Originally posted by Cheng
Why all the hate for the Ultimate universe? A lot of people, myself included, think it's some of the best writing Marvel has had in years. And it brought a lot of new readers to Marvel - so to ignore it in Hero Clix would be a shame.

With Ultimate Spidey I'll give it to you. Bendis is great. Millar on the other hand is just terrible. He insinuates whatever he believes will stir controversey and not to mention his way, way, way over the edge politics into.....comic books?

Just a "shock-jock" type of writer to me with no sense of the characters he writes. I started out loving Ultimates but now hate it. And anyone who wants the original run, 1st prints of Ultimates just has to make an offer.

But I'm glad Spidey's a kid again.

Luke b.

Cheng

04/28/2004, 16:46

I missed the beginning of the Ultimates, and picked up the Digital Comic Book later. But I loved the last story. I missed everything between the first storyline (issue 6?) and the invasion (9 or 10?)

WereMonkey

04/28/2004, 17:08

I am pretty sure the Ultimates got the anti-stealth ability because they all have X-Ray vision.

superfriend

04/28/2004, 17:19

Could we ask for better logos for the Serpent Society and Morlock team abilities?

Serpent Society: Maybe a coiled snake about to strike?

Morlocks: Maybe a manhole cover or a sewer pipe to represent that they live down there.

Manchine

04/28/2004, 17:20

Its pretty cool. I really expect morlocks to be Batman Team ability. I did guess right about Ultimates.

hair10

04/28/2004, 17:22

Morlocks - could be very powerful if there are many morlock or wildcard figs involved.

Serpent Society - nice! very imaginative!

Ultimate X-Men - sounds like 2000AD team abiltiy. Not too shabby.

Ultimates - I'm pretty disappointed by this one. No imagination or thought. How does the Superman Ally team translate to the Ultimates?

herohowdy

04/28/2004, 17:32

Here's my take on the new teams.
Morlocks, WEAK! They #### even worse than MOE. Morlocks have to be adjacant to themselves and the target. At least MOE has to only be adjancant to the target. Totally useless. The only good from the morlocks is that there will hopefully be those cybernetic marauders in the set to wipe that pathetic mutie scum from the table.
Ultimate X-men, also weak. If its costed the same as the judges team ability, the ulitmate x-men will be ultra expensive for what you get. If you've ever tried an all judge team, you'll know what i mean. ON the plus side, more xmen is always good.
Serpent Society, is a way cool new ability. Built in phasing will be very powerful. But again cost could be a factor. IF the rookies come in at 50+ points, these guys could be relegated to 1 on a team to power up all the wild cards.
Ultimates looks also way cool. Ground dudes that can ignore hindering terrain will speed up the game(so will serpent society). Also people are looking for some super powerful dudes to have this ability, but since i've never read ultimates I don't know who excately.
All in all it will be a great set, pity no alpha flight, they so need there own TA. That AF on the base of Vindicator would be so patriotic Canadian style.:grin:

Funky Jett

04/28/2004, 17:32

Originally posted by hair10
Ultimate X-Men - sounds like 2000AD team abiltiy. Not too shabby.
And maybe more. Reread the ability. It looks like each UXM team member gets to pick his own target, whereas the entire 2000AD TEAM gets to pick ONE enemy.

lancelot

04/28/2004, 17:32

their satellite spy cams, iron-man's onboard computers, thor's godlikeness, cap's uncanny xray vision...

cap's uncanny xray vision? hmm now that i dont know about!

Wyldstaar

04/28/2004, 17:45

Even if Calisto and Sidewinder are on the Boneyard rumored list, I still don't buy it for a second. We will never ever see figures of Baron Zemo, Calisto, or Sidewinder!:p

hair10

04/28/2004, 17:46

Originally posted by Funky Jett
And maybe more. Reread the ability. It looks like each UXM team member gets to pick his own target, whereas the entire 2000AD TEAM gets to pick ONE enemy.
Yeah, I read that but I'm hoping it doesn't mean that. Fielding a team of all Ultimate X-Men (or wildcards using the ability) could get very confusing. Now in addition to figs, maps, dice, & action tokens players are going to need to bring an X-Man scorecard!

jedah_s

04/28/2004, 18:07

this is what popped into my head when i first saw the picture for the morlocks team ability:
"cool an endless ta! wait, why does morpheus have an eyepatch? wait, why would a vertigo character be in marvel?"

serpent society sounds cool.... it probably won't work with movement powers tho. or if it does we'll end up with a faq update for "no actions after serpent society team ability" or naassta for short.

Thunderbolts

04/28/2004, 18:12

Originally posted by skeevo666
If you've ever seen the BBC TV adaption of Douglas Adams' The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy the Morlocks logo looks suspiciously familiar . . . .

Haha.

TB - thought it was one of KISS

Cloudpret

04/28/2004, 18:15

####, i wish they put a New warriors TA or Inhumans instead of stupid Morlocks (Lame). I want my Blackbolt!!!!!!!!!!!!

SithSpecter

04/28/2004, 18:23

I thought they said they would be totally new TA's to the game. Ultimates is just a rip-off of Superman. Boo. But then again yay because there needs to be more Stealth Breakers. We'll see if they are worth it though.

Morlocks was a stupid choice in my opinion, too few characters to pull from and you basicly have to make an additon to the Sentinal rules, not so bad but still a hassle. Oh and it's not very good, but it's exactly what MoE and IL should have been and what people may start using them as in friendly games now.

Serpent Society is neat. I don't know a freaken thing about them but I like the TA and the snake theme is pretty cool, in a wacky comic way, to interest me. Bring them on.

Ultimate X-Men is a good team ability, like 2000 AD but a tad different, it's just too bad it was given to a team that already have an ability. Bleh. But here is a question for all you that follow the "logic" of the Ultimate version of the X-men being different enoughto earn an new unique TA. Why didn't the Ultimate Brotherhood get a new TA as well?

Rocket Ranger

04/28/2004, 18:36

Rotru posted:

"...this set will probably be very daring in regards to power combinations and figure strength, in order to attract people who may be turned off by the character selection."

This statement pretty much sums up my opinion of Ultimates so far. Unfortunately, I'm not a Punisher/Ghost Rider fan, and I don't really care for Morlocks, or anything X-men or Ultimates related, at least not enough to have to buy a complete set when they come out like I usually do. I'll wait until I see what regular Universe characters make the cut, but, so far, I'm not very impressed.

I AM impressed by the team abilities, however. They will all be a welcome addition to the Marvel Heroclix universe. Again, it's too bad that three of the teams are ones I won't go out of my way to play as much as classic teams, but it's nice to know they're there. The biggest detractor for themed players like myself will be lack of selection for teams and trying to avoid mixing the old and new universes. If they don't come out with an ultimate Black Widow or Hawkeye in Ultimates, I've got Natasha and Clint I can sub in for them, I guess. As far as Ultimate Thor goes, I'm assuming he'll be somewhere around 200-210 points if they go the power route, or, he'll be cheaper with abilities and stats making up for a shorter dial. I doubt he'll be KC Superman tough, or, at least not that expensive.

The one thing about the new powers that I am really looking forward to is the Serpent Society! As others have said, including them on a team with Doom or Exp. Ultron will make those clix all the more nasty. However, I think grounded wildcards will benefit more since fliers already get to avoid having to base opposing clix when on the move. It looks like Spiral, Taskmaster, E Klaw and Philip Masters all got some new friends.:classic:

Quade

04/28/2004, 18:36

What!...no Midnight Sons TA???

dmac7979

04/28/2004, 18:41

I dont know if its been said in this post already (too long to read) but I believe that The Ultimates team ability represents the network of intelligence and how there all "wired" together in combat as opposed to x-ray vision. Example, satellite focuses on battlefield sends info to, say, Nick Fury, who relays said information to the field operatives.

Nickel97

04/28/2004, 18:58

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

No, they ignore the effects of hindering terrain on team abilities. Meaning they ignore the effects of hindering terrain on, say, the batman team ability (which is analagous to the Power stealth).

Kingdom Come Superman is not hindering terrain.

chowdah

04/28/2004, 19:17

Originally posted by Nickel97
Kingdom Come Superman is not hindering terrain.

He will be when the Ultimates are done with him =)

skyounkin

04/28/2004, 19:25

Wow, the morlocks a bunch of loser sewer mutants who got slaughtered.....can't wait to play them

UXM, whoopee.

Serpent Society sounds cool, wonder how it will work in game play

Ultimates?....WOW, I would have sworn they were gonna tarnish the KC T/A by giving it to the Ultimates but no- They give the carbon copy avengers a T/A that they are TOTALLY unworthy of......

KC was better and it will be better than Ultimates, BUT I am a DC fanboy....

BUT at least we get a New Capt. A.....something good to look forward to.

:cool:

skyounkin

04/28/2004, 19:28

Wouldn't let me edit....My version of the Ultimates T/A

The opposing team has to roll a "patience" roll every turn if they fail to score a 4,5,or,6 then they cannot attack an Ultiamtes member for them not being there and The Ultimate team member showing up LATE to battle.....

You could say they were stuck in traffic by some british guy whose ego broke down....

dherberger

04/28/2004, 19:30

Very appropriate powers for each Team ability.

I like the Ultimate X men ability. When they set their sites for a character they go all out. And you can have individual X-men have their own personal battles against foes.

Wolvie and Sabertooth
Xaviar and Magneto
Jean Grey and White Queen (who says they can't be other Xmen_

skyounkin

04/28/2004, 19:36

I didn't think there was a Ultimate white queen?......

The Charlatan

04/28/2004, 19:43

I'm not gonna say anything that hasn't been said before on this thread, but since that didn't stop everyone else...

No Alpha Flight and Midnight Sons TAs!? WTF!?

Morlocks is a near-total waste, at least it's a NEW TA ability.

I'm somehow much more tolerant of the Serpent Society, probably due to 2 things: it was announced a little while ago so I had time to digest the idea; and it's a very cool-sounding new TA.

What, Ultimate X-Men get a new and differnt TA from the Original Recipe X-Men, but not the Ultimate Brotherhood? Again, a pointless waste of TA assignment, the 2000AD TA sounds good, but is too expense. Maybe it'll be less so now,

Finally, the Ultimates get X-Ray Vision. Fine, I'm happy with that, but again, it's an expensive TA. Ultimate Cap, Hawkeye, and Iron Man must not only be more expensive than the originals, but they MUST ASLO BE MUCH BETTER. If not...:angry:

dherberger

04/28/2004, 19:47

Check out Ultimate X-men 43.

White Queen is working for the government. That's why she would be an enemy of the Xmen.

But I was also thinking of New Xmen where Cyclops is now with White Queen. Just imagine the Cat Fight between her and Jean Grey.

The Charlatan

04/28/2004, 19:47

Originally posted by skyounkin
I didn't think there was a Ultimate white queen?......

She just showed up. And she's just Ultimate Emma Frost, not Ultimate White Queen, AFAIK. One of Xavier's, ahem, old associates, she so far has shown her diamond skin ability but not any telepathy.

Roooster25

04/28/2004, 20:25

I don't know about Ultimates. But wasn't Colossus a Morlock once? He had a romantic link to Calisto.

DemonRS

04/28/2004, 20:29

omg.. ultimates TA rules all now.. I can't wait to play my ultimates Team! I play avengers a lot, but now I'm going to be playing ultimates instead of just Ultimate cap!

turdburglar47

04/28/2004, 20:29

Please elaborate on Colossus' 'romantic link' to Callisto. I didn't know this.

Panther Cult

04/28/2004, 20:33

serpent society sounds cool.... it probably won't work with movement powers tho. or if it does we'll end up with a faq update for "no actions after serpent society team ability" or naassta for short. [/B]

The team ability is worded exactly like phasing, in that it requires a Power Action to activate. Therefore even if you have the SS team ability and charge, running shot, HSS on your dial you can't use them in combination.

Even so, it will lead to some interesting combinations like stealthed phasers or someone who charges in to deal damage and then on the next turn simply phases away through a wall.

And I highly doubt any Serpent Society member will be a flier, so there is unlikely to be any NAASSTA rule ;)

Po Po

04/28/2004, 20:35

I want to echo what someone said earlier about the Healer! He would make an excellent support piece, especially with the Morlocks team ability! I see him with a really high AV, no defensive powers (he got taken down pretty easy in the comic), and 0 damage. Plus, imagine if your support piece got a plus one AV for every friendly character around it...would that work with the wording of the TA?

Panther Cult

04/28/2004, 20:36

Originally posted by Roooster25
I don't know about Ultimates. But wasn't Colossus a Morlock once? He had a romantic link to Calisto.

Yes, but neither one was quite themself - Colossus had gone through the Siege Perilous, didn't know he was a mutant and was just an artist living in Greenwhich Village.

Callisto, at the time had had her features altered by Masque and was a fashion model..

The two of them hooked up then.

Later Callisto, returned to regular form was also linked with Colossus' brother before he took what was left of the Morlocks to another dimension...

Po Po

04/28/2004, 20:37

Oh, and as for the Colossus romantic link...I think someone is confusing Peter for another member of the Rasputin family. I think it was Colossus' older brother (Mikhail?) that was involved with the Morlocks, but I could be wrong...

Roooster25

04/28/2004, 20:40

Uncanny X-Men 325:

Colossus: Truth? Our age difference might be the only thing that'd allow me to keep up with you this time.

Callisto: Flatterer

Callisto: One for the road?

Colossus: You have to ask?

long deep kiss

WakandaMan

04/28/2004, 21:12

Originally posted by clameire
The logic with making Avengers being generic for Thunderbirds isn't used anymore ?
Originally posted by Eric Rage
I'm hoping this doesn't mean we won't see Alpha Flight in this set, and that, like the T-Birds, they'll just share a previously established TA. (X-Men seems like the obvious choice.)

Okay say it with me now people. It's ThunderBOLTS. B-O-L-T-S. Not Thunderbirds.

One is a team of former villians trying to prove to the world that they can change for the better. The other is a bunch of wooden puppets on strings.

...and one of these is soon to be released as a major motion picture. :ermm:

Question on Ultimates TA:
Do you think that they could also ignore the effect of water terrain on movement? Is that considered a sub-catergory of hindering, or seperate altogether? I want my Ultimate Quicksilver to be able to run across lakes.

-Wakandaman (who could think of a dozen better teams to include instead of Morlocks or Ultimate X-men)

shock man x

04/28/2004, 21:36

Originally posted by WakandaMan

Question on Ultimates TA:
Do you think that they could also ignore the effect of water terrain on movement? Is that considered a sub-catergory of hindering, or seperate altogether? I want my Ultimate Quicksilver to be able to run across lakes.

-Wakandaman (who could think of a dozen better teams to include instead of Morlocks or Ultimate X-men)

Water terrain is hindering terrain on movement only and since the Ultimate team say they ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement they should ignore the water no problem. So Quicksilver and Cap can both stand on the water...wait, what?

kwsazul

04/28/2004, 22:08

I like the TAs, but I think they could have done better with two of the choices, namely ultimate X men and Morlocks. Though I don't understand how some people can complain about the Morlocks and ask for New Warriors and Alpha Flight. Those two teams aren't exactly gold mines either (and this is from someone who owns the entire NW line). I was hoping for Marvel Knights aka perma stealth and I got excited when I saw Ultimates TA to balance it out, but.......no dice. Maybe next set.:rolleyes:

SteveRogers

04/28/2004, 22:30

Hmm...Captain America who can see through stealth and leap over hindering terrain...Man, quoting Gambit:
"it don't get much betta 'dan dis.":laugh:

garlinghouse

04/28/2004, 22:41

"The first TA, Morlocks, is eh...only up to plus 2, not "huge swarm plusses" they say. But +2 can be nice."

It can be more than plus 2. Up to four friendlies can be adjacent to a morlock and his target.

Like this:

FTF
FMF

FTF
FMF

clixer11

04/28/2004, 22:50

Originally posted by Po Po
I want to echo what someone said earlier about the Healer! He would make an excellent support piece, especially with the Morlocks team ability! I see him with a really high AV, no defensive powers (he got taken down pretty easy in the comic), and 0 damage. Plus, imagine if your support piece got a plus one AV for every friendly character around it...would that work with the wording of the TA?

Probably not since Support can have no modifiers to either the target or Supporter. But who knows?

garlinghouse

04/28/2004, 22:51

The morlocks just have to be adjacent to a friendly character, who is also adjacent to the targer, to get the plus one. It does not say they have to be adjacent to other Morlocks.

Heretic

04/28/2004, 23:17

Originally posted by Kid Zemo
What that is saying is that the effects of hindering terrain are ignored. All of hindering terrain's effects - on movement, on powers, on combat, and on team abilities. The last one makes no sense really, but all that is being ignored are the effects of hindering terrain.

Kid Zemo Team abilities refer to Kabuki and Batman TA's the treat hindering terrain as blocking Terrain. This TA isn't affected by terrain, so it can blast right through hindering terrain and treat it as if it wasn't there, thereby superseeding the terrain modifier in the BatTA.

Heretic

04/28/2004, 23:21

I just can't wait for the running shot or charge through the wall that I have always thought Vision should have. Serpents could rule the game w/ options like that.

tigerbonist

04/28/2004, 23:27

Originally posted by Eric Rage
Uh, that's not how I read it. I read that as two segments, the one before and the one after the second "and."

-Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat and powers. (Anti-stealth)

-Members of this team ignore the effects of team abilities. (No declaring me the target of your 2000AD/Ultimate X-Men bump, no making me roll for the Skrull, Danger Girl or KC TA if I want to attack, etc.)

Or let's say they ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement and combat. Because of that "and" they also "ignore the effects of powers" (stealth, plasticity, probability control, psychic blast, incap etc.) and they ignore any team abilities. HOTCHEE!!

My interpretation has to be wrong. That's WAY too powerful. Already they need to reword and be more concise in describing this TA. I know they are trying to refer to anti-stealth and being able to charge/RS without being screwed over by hindering terrain for grounded Ultimate characters (it's in the summary beneath the power). They shouldn't have added the "and powers and TAs" for the rest of that description. They made it too general a wording to mean stealth TAs. The first half makes absolute sense; hindering terrain is ignored for all combat/movement by an Ultimate team member. Just like Superman Ally. And of course in the first paragraph, it says that 2 of the powers are new to Heroclix (Morlocks/Serpent Society) so this one is Superman TA. If they actually intended to upgrade the Superman TA more with the Ultimates, such as my interpretation, I'd be scared.:noid:

fridayweb

04/28/2004, 23:29

You can't use two Power Actions together (RS + RCE) so you can't use Serpent Society TA + RS or Charge. Probably a good thing.

Heretic

04/28/2004, 23:34

Originally posted by Hack-n-slash
How?

123
4X6
789

2 and 4 are not adjacent, as 1 and X block LOS/LOF.
1 and X are not adjacent, as 2 and 4 block LOS/LOF.
etc...

So...

2
4X6

or

123
X

Seems about as good as it gets, at +2 for #2 either way.

Or am I missing something?

**

Also, the "ignores all TA's" interpretation on the Ultimates TA
is rather funny. You'd turn it on and it would ignore itself. :p actually, all are adjacent:

1) diagonal only breaks LOS when considering ranged attack
2) diagonal only breaks LOS when both are enemy figs.

In the above, x is an enemy and the numbers are friendly, so 12346 are adjacent, or 23689, or 46789, etc. FYI.

Heretic

04/28/2004, 23:38

Originally posted by fridayweb
You can't use two Power Actions together (RS + RCE) so you can't use Serpent Society TA + RS or Charge. Probably a good thing. True, I was just making a point, not intent on being exact, but HSS #1 would be OK, I would suspect.

The Charlatan

04/29/2004, 01:40

I just had an evil thought, but I'm not certain if it would work since my grasp of the rules sucks.

V Doom taxis V Taskmaster (both copying Morlock TA) next to one of their allies who is adjacent to an opponent. Now the two would have an AV of 14. Substitute V Doom for E Ultron and he would get up to 15, though Tasky would stay at a mere 14.

Yes, it's basically wildcard abuse, but does it work?

Panther Cult

04/29/2004, 01:47

Originally posted by Heretic
True, I was just making a point, not intent on being exact, but HSS #1 would be OK, I would suspect.

Nope this one won't work either. Serpent Society requires a Power Action, HSS Option 1 requires a Move Action. Since you can't assign two actions you have to pick one or the other, not both.

lobo1

04/29/2004, 02:23

to be honest, i'm not that impressed with the new ta's. they are for the most part copycats from indy and dc. the marauders or whatever is kinda cool, they should have made a completley new ta. oh well, maybe next time. i still can't wait for the new ultimates set, and when is dc gonna finally release a lobo heroclix fig?!?!?!? :)

cheers

ChickenChicken

04/29/2004, 02:28

Originally posted by sniksder
Reread it again they ignore Team Abilites as well

Ultimates: Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities

No, they ignore the effects of HINDERING TERRAIN on movement, combat, powers and team abilities.

You highlighted the wrong part of the Team Ability. Seeing as how there is little corralation between the KC TA and the effects of Hindering Terrain on figures with it, I don't see how Ultimates members ignore it. Whereas there is a huge effect that Hindering Terrain has with Batman Allies.

TheFreak

04/29/2004, 02:46

for some reason, i don't see 2000AD team working for Ult X Men...i would have seen that better for Exiles...seeing as how they pop into a universe on a mission, usually to take someone out, or to prevent someone from doing something. If they give Mimic, Blink and Nocturne generic X-Team, that will be wrong. As for what TA they should have? I'd almost say Anti Supes, just for those signal jammers they have in their suits..nah maybe not...Bat team could almost work though for that reason...I dunno....
Supes for Ultimates is an interesting choice, and I can see how they justify it. Fury and his little bag of tricks
Built in phasing for Serpent Society??? I was thinking poison, but this is plain sick! It's great.
And the Morlocks? Well at least they didn't say you had to have all Morlocks together to get the bonus (I did read that right, right?) Could be interesting. Aren't Rusty and Skids also Morlocks now? Maybe you can spot your opp a few points to let you use R Marrow and E Storm as Morlocks.

hourman

04/29/2004, 02:47

I think the Serpent Squad team ability is pretty powerful.

skeevo666

04/29/2004, 03:17

Originally posted by WakandaMan
Okay say it with me now people. It's ThunderBOLTS. B-O-L-T-S. Not Thunderbirds.

One is a team of former villians trying to prove to the world that they can change for the better. The other is a bunch of wooden puppets on strings.

they were also a Roller Derby team too IIRC. :grin:

Dr. Morbius

04/29/2004, 04:51

Too bad that Morlocks will be heavily affected by the new RULE OF 3!!! So no unlimited bonus adding :(

warden

04/29/2004, 06:30

I didn't understand the Ultimates team - was this a generic label for characters in the Ultimate universe or what? Then I did some research and now understand that "The Ultimates" is the name of "The Avengers" in the alternate Ultimate universe. Here's Nick's review from Amazon which enlightened me.

AndrewI'm admittedly not the biggest fan of Marvel's Ultimate line, but there was something about The Ultimates that just made me want to give it a look. Mark Millar's re-imagining of the Avengers is flawed to be sure, but it sure does have its flashes of brilliance here and there. Beginning with Captain America's final mission during World War II where he was believed to have been killed, and leading up to his frozen body being found and later joining the government funded Ultimates consisting of Nick Fury, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, Hank Pym, and his wife Janet. Later on we are introduced to the mighty Thor, re-invisioned here as a hippie, pacifist who can mysteriously control weather elements and wields a rather large hammer. Nick Fury undergoes probably the biggest change as he is now black (he looks so much like Samuel L. Jackson it's not even funny) and not the cigar chomping grizzled war hero we knew and loved. Dr. Bruce Banner is re-imagined as a brilliant scientist who feels left out by the woman he loves (Betty Ross) and the rest of the team, concluding with him becoming the Hulk. This version of the Hulk is where my biggest gripe is; he's a sex crazed, beer guzzling idiot who rambles moronic things while trying to kill Freddie Prinze Junior (yes, you read that right). This version of Tony Stark is practically the same as in the regular Marvel universe, although I'm not too fond of the new Iron Man armor. The volitale relationship between Hank and Janet Pym however, is where the book shines, as the domestic violence and Hank's ego mania takes control and becomes quite chilling. The rendition of Captain America I really enjoy, even though I wish more of Cap trying to cope with this new world would have been seen. The art by Bryan Hitch is fantastic, but the book loses points with one too many pop-culture references that are here to remind us that this story is supposed to take place in the present day. All in all, this is my favorite Ultimate title, but the issues that followed after this (due out soon in the next volume called Homeland Security) is where The Ultimates becomes something really special.

richks

04/29/2004, 06:40

The Ultimates is actually a really good comic. I simply don't have any interest in the "proper" marvel universe and never really have, but Ultimates is really cool. They've kinda ditched all the "silly" stuff, like going into space every 6 months and saving the universe before tea time. And frankly, it works.

richks

04/29/2004, 06:43

Originally posted by Dr. Morbius
Too bad that Morlocks will be heavily affected by the new RULE OF 3!!! So no unlimited bonus adding :(

You can only get 4 characters adjacent, so it'd only be a +4 anyway, and that would be with 4 characters standing around doing nothing much.

the itsy bit

04/29/2004, 07:25

great TA's !!

Serpent Society will be great for the Sandman !

Oh..and MFD !!^^:devious:

Gentlegamer

04/29/2004, 07:36

Originally posted by Panther Cult
The team ability is worded exactly like phasing, in that it requires a Power Action to activate. Therefore even if you have the SS team ability and charge, running shot, HSS on your dial you can't use them in combination.

Phasing/Teleport DOES require a power action:

PHASING/TELEPORT (optional): Give this character a power action. Move this character a number of squares up to its speed value. Ignore the effects of all characters and terrain features, including elevation, on movement. This character may not end its move in blocking terrain.

herohowdy

04/29/2004, 11:22

Morlock team ability is uber useless. You need green lantern around to make it work at all. How often has anyone ever made the MOE ability work? I did once (1 attack)with green lantern in a 600 point 4 player game. All except GL were MOE's. So in theory Morlocks TA might be usefull, but the reality will be you'll have to try very hard to make it work, and it still won't. Its too bad that a new TA is such a waste.:cry:

Captain_Comet

04/29/2004, 11:36

I like these new Abilities, and in an open game my
Kara Zor-EL will be deadlier than ever. Although that Morlock
TA doesn't sound like much, its going to give my favorite wild
cards a deadly close combat advantage (at least against
non-wildcards and pushed characters).

jon-el

04/29/2004, 13:00

Originally posted by sniksder
KC Superman meet Ultimate Thor :)

no rolling for Ultimates against KC'ers...nice way to neutralize KC

Not really, Ultimates still can't go base to base w/ KC without rolling first.

jon-el

04/29/2004, 13:01

Originally posted by SpakSpang
The Ultimate TA ability is awesome...but I hope they rewrite the Superman TA ability to be the same. This adds so much more usefulful options to it.

They already have. The Superman team ability is identical to the Ultimate TA.

jon-el

04/29/2004, 13:07

PEOPLE ---- "Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

Ultimates doesn't ignore Team Abilities.

They ignore:
1. effects of hindering terrain on movement
2. effects of hindering terrain on combat
3. effects of hindering terrain on powers
4. effects of hindering terrain on team abilities.

It's just like the current Superman TA.

JEEZ

ahole_derby

04/29/2004, 13:12

Willis, what ARE you talking about?!? the TA requires a Power Action and so do both Charge and Running Shot.

ahole_derby

04/29/2004, 13:14

Please disregard my incomprehensible last post, as I had two windows open at once and posted in the wrong thread. D'oh!

:o

DemonRS

04/29/2004, 13:16

Originally posted by jon-el
PEOPLE ---- "Members of this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain on movement, combat, and powers and team abilities."

Ultimates doesn't ignore Team Abilities.

They ignore:
1. effects of hindering terrain on movement
2. effects of hindering terrain on combat
3. effects of hindering terrain on powers
4. effects of hindering terrain on team abilities.

It's just like the current Superman TA.

JEEZ

While this is true.. the superman TA people (not wildcards) all fly.. which already means that sups' TA is semi wasted in the sense that flyiers already ignore hindering terrain. For him, it makes his ranged combat work. For people like cap, it leaves abilities such as leap climb off their dial. In terms of teams, the Ultimates team will probably benefit more from this TA than the sups team since not all their members fly.. Cap, Hawkeye, giantman should they make him, no need for leap climb on a hulk if they lump him in with ultimates, etc.

DemonRS

04/29/2004, 13:19

Originally posted by Gentlegamer
Phasing/Teleport DOES require a power action:

PHASING/TELEPORT (optional): Give this character a power action. Move this character a number of squares up to its speed value. Ignore the effects of all characters and terrain features, including elevation, on movement. This character may not end its move in blocking terrain.

Yeah that's what he said....

He said:
The team ability is worded exactly like phasing, in that it requires a Power Action to activate. Therefore even if you have the SS team ability and charge, running shot, HSS on your dial you can't use them in combination.

since it is worded exactly like phasing, and requires a power action you can't combine it with other powers...

TheRavenHQ

04/29/2004, 13:43

I think the new TAs are cool.

For those of you complaing about Morlocks getting a TA, instead of other teams that deserve TAs. Remember that WizKids now plans on introducing something new in each set. It's fine to assume that every once in a while they'll give us another TA with very few characters like the Skrulls, Defenders, or the FantasticFour.

Gentlegamer

04/29/2004, 14:04

Originally posted by TheRavenHQ
I think the new TAs are cool.

For those of you complaing about Morlocks getting a TA, instead of other teams that deserve TAs. Remember that WizKids now plans on introducing something new in each set. It's fine to assume that every once in a while they'll give us another TA with very few characters like the Skrulls, Defenders, or the FantasticFour.

That's cool as long as the TAs are useful and not simply new MoE . . .

olcottr

04/29/2004, 14:10

Alright, who here thinks that the Morlock team ability is what the Masters of Evil SHOULD have been?!?

shock man x

04/29/2004, 14:12

Morlocks ain't MOE, only the Morlock is the one gaining the bonus and the other freindly adjacent figures do not need to be Morlocks as well.

olcottr

04/29/2004, 14:19

Originally posted by herohowdy
Morlock team ability is uber useless. You need green lantern around to make it work at all. How often has anyone ever made the MOE ability work? I did once (1 attack)with green lantern in a 600 point 4 player game. All except GL were MOE's. So in theory Morlocks TA might be usefull, but the reality will be you'll have to try very hard to make it work, and it still won't. Its too bad that a new TA is such a waste.:cry:

I disagree. The real problem with MoE is that it is an action-saving TA and all the good MoE characters are over 100 pts, thus making it totally unnecessary, plus it doesn't work with RCE (sorry Kang and Klaw), or any other power actions.

olcottr

04/29/2004, 14:20

Originally posted by shock man x
Morlocks ain't MOE, only the Morlock is the one gaining the bonus and the other freindly adjacent figures do not need to be Morlocks as well.

That's what I'm saying, MoE sucks and should be more like the Morlocks TA.

olcottr

04/29/2004, 14:25

Originally posted by richks
You can only get 4 characters adjacent, so it'd only be a +4 anyway, and that would be with 4 characters standing around doing nothing much.

Actually, with 5 morlocks you could get 1 with +4 (+3), 2 with +2, and 2 with +1.

With this configuration:

MOM
MMM

M=Morlock
O=Opposing fig

How could this happen, you say? Mind Control, that's how.

shock man x

04/29/2004, 15:00

Originally posted by olcottr
That's what I'm saying, MoE sucks and should be more like the Morlocks TA.

Didn't see you there. :)

MOE isn't as usless as people think. It's easier for wildcards to use MOE than the MOEers. Taskmaster, Doombots, heck even Black Cat and Daredevil can use the ability with Whirlwind, Mr. Hyde, Yellowjacket and Moonstone to great effect.

The thing with a MOE team is that it won't have nothing but MOEs on it.

Wasteland

04/29/2004, 15:34

Originally posted by olcottr
Actually, with 5 morlocks you could get 1 with +4 (+3), 2 with +2, and 2 with +1.

With this configuration:

MOM
MMM

M=Morlock
O=Opposing fig

How could this happen, you say? Mind Control, that's how.

Actually, one would have +3 (capped) and the other 4 would have +2

123
4T5

2 is adjacent to all = +4
1 is adjacent to 2 + 4 = +2
3 is adjacent to 2 + 5 = +2
4 is adjacent to 1 + 2 = +2
5 is adjacent to 2 + 3 = +2

Not bad, but they better all be cheap, otherwise you're gonna have to run big games to make it work good. I am happy that Taskmaster Sandman and Spiral just got a whole lot meaner...

Heretic

04/29/2004, 16:41

Originally posted by herohowdy
Morlock team ability is uber useless. You need green lantern around to make it work at all. How often has anyone ever made the MOE ability work? I did once (1 attack)with green lantern in a 600 point 4 player game. All except GL were MOE's. So in theory Morlocks TA might be usefull, but the reality will be you'll have to try very hard to make it work, and it still won't. Its too bad that a new TA is such a waste.:cry: One way is to mind control someone to come to you. The advantage is that each morlock could attack, assuming you have enough actions, so if you miss w/ one you can try the next and they can continue using the TA on each other. Once I did this w/ the MOE and Taskmaster, Spiral and Whirlwind, but Spiral managed to finish it all by herself so I never got to use the ability.