Claremont and JLA aaaaarghhh!!!

[The Sandman]

As you can tell by the subject, I have not been too impressed with his run on JLA. Seems like there's about 50 things going on at once and there's my favorite new line to keep fan boys inflamed.

Martian Manhunter explaing why Superman was nabbed so easily by a vampire...

"Superman's unique vunerability to magic"

That's up there with the Wolverine/Cap America issues where apparently magnetic bullets were all that you ever needed to kill wolverine.

Anyway, I loved Claremont during his early X-men years (but to be honest he had a fair share of clunkers then), it just seems now that it doesn't matter if he's writing X-men or anything else, it still is lacking something. At least IMHO.

[MKelly67]

How can you not like a pile of humans remains in the form of an X. Classic comic book writing. :confused:

I think Byrne is putting in his 2 cents as well. This is his way of lauching his new pet project, the Doom Patrol.

Overall I think the story has been weak.

[Supes]

Well... they are not doing that good a job.

What is going on (if you don't look at previews) is sometime soon after their run a Doom Patrol ongoing series is starting with them writing/drawing it. Hence, when they came on to JLA what they were really doing was putting the Doom Patrol back into the spotlight so they can hope someone will pick it up.

So Bah to the whole series. It has yet to really make me care. And the horribly dated look of the entire team, not to mention the dated way they speak, just makes me feel like I'm reading a flash back to the early 80's.

The only thing I can figure out with Superman getting bitten by the vampire and the vampire not dying is that this particular vampire is incredibly powerful. He cannot injest the blood but he can stand it enough to make Superman a vampire... blah blah blah.

I liked the period when if Superman was bitten by a vampire, they would burst into ashes as Superman's blood is solar charged ... hence the vampire (while able to pierce his skin with their magic fangs) is drinking a liquid sun/blood mix.

I have a major problem with this entire team knowing they are going up against vampires and not seeking out magical allies... Etrigan, Zatanna, Dr. Fate, Spectre, etc etc etc etc. These guys are on Batman's speed dial. Where is our wonderful "world's greatest detective" when you need him? Because this guy isn't him.

I'm just happy they are doing the Superman book right for once (except Superman: Birthright... don't even get me started on it's stinkin' pile of carp)

[MJlover]

I'm with you. I have been collecting X-treme X-men for the last 2 years, and it's always the last one I read, if I read it at all before the next one comes out. His take on the JLA isn't that great either, but it's better than the last few issues before he took over!

[Manchine]

Thought it was being done very well. I have got every issue so far, plus a few bad ones before it. So far all the characters act like they are suppose to.

Of course after you mention it. Chris is giving in to the new readers. Flashes explantion on grunt and catching the girl is another example. Martain Manhunter saying he's a trained mentalist. It sounds like he's aiming to get new people in.

[The Sandman]

Be honest Manchine, you like it because it claims Supes has a "special" vunerability to magic. :grin:

But, yes, it definately looks like I am reading old style comics. I expect Robin too show up and yell "Good golly Batman! Those vampires are ugly!"

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I don't mind the style, but the new characters are incredibly lame. If I never see the 4-arm gorrila again it won't be too soon.

On the other hand, I love the art. Byrne can get sloppy, but it seems clear to me that he's really into it here. And Byrne + Orway is great. I just wish the story were better.

[Manchine]

LOL, actually. I like it becuase its the core characters. There's nothing added right now. Since I am a new reader its perfectly fine for me.


So far we have seen.

Batman thinks.
Atom Shrinks
Superman is vulnerable to magic
Flash is fast
Martian Manhunter is a mentalist
Wonder Woman can be hurt but can keep up with Superman.


I really hope they add stuff later but as newbie on the DC block. Its perfectly fine right now.

[Supes]

What they are trying to do is bring Marvel readers over to DC. Why else would you put the old Marvel "golden team" from the old X-men days on DC premiere all of our big names in one book comic?

Unfortunately, instead of bringing marvel people over... it's making DC fans leave. There hasn't been good writing on DC since the obsidian age... and even that wasn't top notch. DC really has to realize that if you have a book with each one of the house hold names of DC... you have to make sure it is good.

(anybody else think comic books is not the place to voice your political leanings? The guy that took over after Obsidian Age definately used JLA as a huge political sound off board. Annoyed the heck out of me)

[Supes]

If you want a better analysis of the whole JLA team... check out Geoff John's current Flash run. He did a 7 page scene of the JLA through the Flash's eyes that is five hundred times more accurate than the current JLA run.

If anything I'd want John's on JLA. He already does JSA so well... and of course, breathed life into the Flash. I think he's earned the right to sit at the healm of JLA writer.

[thugit]

I like it better than anything Joe Kelley or Dennis O'Neill had written recently.

It's not great, but it's not awful.

[Doomtoy]

I still like Byrne and Ordway's art.

But Claremont has definitely seen better days.

[Clix776]

Originally posted by Supes
(anybody else think comic books is not the place to voice your political leanings? The guy that took over after Obsidian Age definately used JLA as a huge political sound off board. Annoyed the heck out of me) Um... that was still Joe Kelly... that is, it was the guy who wrote Obsidian Age.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[Manchine]

Originally posted by Supes
If you want a better analysis of the whole JLA team... check out Geoff John's current Flash run. He did a 7 page scene of the JLA through the Flash's eyes that is five hundred times more accurate than the current JLA run.

If anything I'd want John's on JLA. He already does JSA so well... and of course, breathed life into the Flash. I think he's earned the right to sit at the healm of JLA writer.

I actually have started reading flash also and I like that also. Seeing how he does that for one character. It would be a little to much for newbies with multiple characters. Which is the reason why I like the JLA right now. There's to many characters and it would change it to drastically. If he did the JLA that way.

As some one said this right now will not appease the Hardcore fans. It will grab other new readers.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I'm fine with the claer explanations of people's powers and such. It's the rathert lame new characters that bug me-- that, and the huge number of them overall.

[CandySuxxx]

Originally posted by MKelly67

I think Byrne is putting in his 2 cents as well. This is his way of lauching his new pet project, the Doom Patrol.

Overall I think the story has been weak.

i agree, but i think Bryne is puttin' more than his 2 cents. he just usin' Claremont/Ordway to draw more readers to his upcomin' DoomPatrol. i'm a big fan of Claremont and sad that this was just a "origin" arc. man! i feel dooped by DC. i know i wont be buyin' DoopPatrol!

[Supes]

There are really only a few new characters. Crucifier, Nudge, and ... ugh, Grunt. Sigh ... when did it become acceptable to just pick a verb and that becomes a character's name?

The other people... that "other team" that is trying to catch the vampires is an older team called Doom Patrol. So they are not lame new characters... but rather lame old characters. Or at least they are being written that way.

Oh and I knew that Kelly wrote the Obsidian Age... I mistyped and meant that his entire run after the O.Age was a lot of political bunk. If I wanted to hear a lot of political bunk I'd watch the news ripping apart the whipping boy of the day. I read comics to escape. I actually shouted with joy when I read that Kelly was no longer writing the JLA. Made my wife jump I shouted so loud.

I don't think he'd change the JLA drastically... he'd more change the villians. Of course, the JLA are splitting with this JLA:Elite nonsense coming up after JLA #100.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I know who the Doom PAtrol are, but they are a new incarnation, so there'sa bit of confusion with them, as well.

I've been wondering if Nudge, Grunt, and the faceless guy are all going to be "expansion" DP members. I hope not.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
I know who the Doom PAtrol are, but they are a new incarnation, so there'sa bit of confusion with them, as well.

I just wish that John Byrne would leave my favorite teams alone!

Byrne does Superman - Legion gets so messed up that they need a complete reboot after Zero Hour.

Byrne does Wonder Woman - We get the "wonderful" story of how Donna Troy is Diana's magical clone.

Byrne does Doom Patrol - Don't know what will happen yet, but since Gar Logan and the Titans have several ties into Doom Patrol history that's disappearing with this reboot...

[kon-el]

You know, I used to LOVE claremont and byrne when they did X-men, but I have to say they are much too past thier prime. Claremonts story is plain garbage, and Byrnes art is mediocre at best.

Tristan

[Superfro]

Originally posted by CandySuxxx
i agree, but i think Bryne is puttin' more than his 2 cents. he just usin' Claremont/Ordway to draw more readers to his upcomin' DoomPatrol. i'm a big fan of Claremont and sad that this was just a "origin" arc. man! i feel dooped by DC. i know i wont be buyin' DoopPatrol!


WORD! I didn't enjoy the first two issues, and once I saw the solicitation in Previews for the Doom Patrol series spinning out from it, I had ZERO interest to read any further.

[The Sandman]

I love Byrne, but yes, at times it seems sloppy and/or dated. Claremont has not done anything for me in a long time. His old X-men is at times amazing, but his new work resembles the bad old work.

I just re-read my paragraph and me not speak so well either...

[Frontman]

Well,

It's certainly not the worst story, but man, Claremont/Byrne of old was awesome compared to this.

I do think part of the problem that the JLA has been having since Morrison's departure is the concept of doing a JLA that's different than Morrison's, but in doing so, you get the injection of some stupid ideas and characters. I'm sorry, but you go from "The Magnificent Seven," to adding a guy named Manitou Raven? Why? If you want a creepy magic user, Jason FREAKIN' Blood was a part of the team, leave him! You've got Faith, which is just there as a character for me.

Here's what I would do for the lineup

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern John Stewart
Flash
J'onn J'onzz
Atom
Jason Blood

That's eight members. You've got the "big 3" in Bat/Supes/Wonder Woman; you have a GL (and one who shouldn't play that big of a role in Hal's return. Plus, with the JLA having a Green Lantern, Hal doesn't need to join it.) I'd make J'onn the chairman, as he's been a leaguer through it all. Jason is there for all things magical, you've got Ray Palmer for all things science.

For secondary team members, I'd go with
Nightwing (for when Batman isn't available)
Black Canary/Oracle (not too often, but just when needed)
Firestorm (but with it being this new kid, I'm thinking either Outsiders or Teen Titans for him to cut his teeth on.)

Just my thoughts.

PEACE!!!

The Frontman

[SITHSPAWN]

OK, If Supes was bitten by a Vampiie wouldn't he end up loosiing his powers? He has to be in the sun to keep them. He does have a weakness to magic, Shasam about killed him in Kingdom Come. Still, how could the vampire bite through his skin?! Bullets and lasers don't even phase the guy but a pair of teeth can cut him? Just my opinion.

[bill4935]

Magic teeth.

[Q99]

I liked Kelly in Obsidian Age, didn't think he was quite good enough for the next two political storylines, he can handle epic complex plots or a message, but not both at the same time (I couldn't even tell what the motivation of most of the bad guys were in the White Rage), but then the Burning storyline was great.

Morrison had some not-as-good spots too (the Amazo issue was really weak, for example), so I forgive both of them.

Claremont, however, is ONLY doing the Vampire arc, which means it's one BIG bad spot.

[Tom1210]

I like Chris Claremont and John Byrne but I didn't like the Tenth Circle storyline. It was too boring. It is definitely not their best work, its not even a good one at that.

And who uses thought balloons nowadays anyway?

[Clikzilla]

...Grant Morrison did a long run on Doom Patrol for Vertigo back in the early-mid 90's that was absolutely stellar.

I was shocked to see that Byrne is essentially 'resetting' the book back to the pre-Morrison version of the team along with the new, lame characters his vast creativity spawns...like an ape with more than 2 arms. I read the preview pages in Previews the other day and was struck by how absolutely lame it seemed. It looked and read like some of the really bad DC stuff from the 80's.

The sad part is that if it's popular, that's the version of the Doom Patrol we get for Heroclix, rather than either the classic 60's version of the team or Morrison's.

[Clikzilla]

...I used to be a big fan of John Byrne. I think my sense of disappointment over his new DP stems from that.

[Ro-gan]

Originally posted by Manchine
Of course after you mention it. Chris is giving in to the new readers. Flashes explantion on grunt and catching the girl is another example. Martain Manhunter saying he's a trained mentalist. It sounds like he's aiming to get new people in.

Actually:

Claremont has NEVER been confident in any of the artists that have drawn his stories. He feels they won't be able to draw what he is accomplishing in the story so he writes the explanation out. He has always done this and always will. It's just one of his quirks. This little eccentricism is up there with his looong and oft-times drawn out multi-plots.

Claremont is one of those writers that you either love or hate.

I, myself, am a fanboy of his.

My best advice for reading any Claremont comic is to re-read a large chunk of the comics at once or in a few short days. The stories make a whole lot more sense and read like a novel this way. You also are able to catch little hints that he drops but doesn't follow up on until MANY issues later. And when a comic comes out only once a month you don't remember a small hint that occurred nearly a year ago.

I will also repeat myself with something I have said on numerous Threads before this one:

Claremont usually needs approximately 8-10 issues to get into the proverbial groove of characters he doesn't normally write. This run on JLA is only 6 issues. Do the math.

Unless you really appreciate Claremont for the writer he is most people will not like this current JLA story. Even I am not too fond of it.

But that is mainly because Byrne is using Chris to help him get the Doom Patrol out to the public for his future revamping of that title.

[Ro-gan]

Here are some sound words of advice:

Instead of complaining (and, yes, I am guilty of this fault, too) write your own stories and keep submitting them to Marvel/DC/Image/wherever.

If you feel you can write/draw better stories then do it.

If your work eventually gets accepted then you were right in saying you could do better.

If your work keeps getting rejected and never has a chance of being accepted then apparently you couldn't do better.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Q99
Morrison had some not-as-good spots too (the Amazo issue was really weak, for example), so I forgive both of them.

IIRC that was a fill-in issue, not Morrison. ;)

[Supes]

Well first off
Shasam about killed him(Supes) in Kingdom Come.

Um... he hurt him. Superman if he wanted to fight would have knocked his block off... Especially with Shazam constantly going back to his "human" form. He was trying to snap Cap Marvel out of it. Hence his not fighting back. And did you notice he didn't really fall over. Even after all that magical lightning, he still survived a nuclear explosion at near ground zero. Oh yeah, Shazam really beat him up...
:ermm:

Second...

Here are some sound words of advice:

Instead of complaining (and, yes, I am guilty of this fault, too) write your own stories and keep submitting them to Marvel/DC/Image/wherever.

If you feel you can write/draw better stories then do it.

If your work eventually gets accepted then you were right in saying you could do better.

If your work keeps getting rejected and never has a chance of being accepted then apparently you couldn't do better.


Uh yeah. Except back in the day when there were almost no comic book writers (or comic books kinda hired next to anybody because of poor sales) the scale was lower. And now... Claremont already has a name for himself... but hasn't kept his stuff in high quality.

Just because I get rejected does not equal bad writer. Just look at how long Bendis took before he got a good gig.

Yes I will agree, it is easier to complain than do. But since we are the audience ... our opinions matter. If we couldn't complain about bad writing... then what's the point of even trying to write a good story?

Instead of just looking down your nose at us and spitting out old over used cliche sayings like (well why don't you try it) try saying something that gets your point across without disrespecting your fellow gamers/comic book readers.

[jedah_s]

When I first heard from a friend that Claremont and Byrne were doing JLA I jokingly asked him, "So the JLA are going to fight Dark Pheonix?"
He replied, "Well, probably something big, they are the JLA after all."
I picked up the first book and the JLA were fighting.... vampires.
Put it right back down.

Personally I loved Obsidian Age. It helps to read both tpb's back to back tho.
Top three JLA story arcs for me...
Obsidian Age
Tower of Babel
Terror Incognita

And as a side note, I think Waid should have written JLA/Avengers... but thats just me.

[greg_wolf]

i love jla. but this run F'en sux ballz. the last jla run was worse. but that martian manhunter story was great. mainly cause j'ohn is onna my favorite characters. and i like how the writers are leaning away from the everybody has one weakness bull. so now j'ohn isn't hurt by fire. hehehehe. no stoppin him now.

[firstfederal]

Crucifer?

This new JLA is a guilty pleasure of mine. Just for the unintended laughs. But they make me happy. Ordway is pulling the lame pencils together, but the story...

Ow.

And as an aside, it is not enough to be better than c.r.a.p. I'd rather read a weak Grant Morrison story than another issue starring a vampire so effiminate that he makes Niles Crane look like Charles Bronson.

Bill