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Reload this Page Outwitting Abilities + Infinity Gauntlet
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Old 06/29/2012, 20:43
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CountingGardens
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Outwitting Abilities + Infinity Gauntlet
How does the following situation work:

A character outwits Hypersonic Speed on his turn. Can the outwitted character select Hypersonic Speed if the number 2 or 3 is showing on the Gauntlet?

Basically,

Gauntlet #2: Modify character's combat values by +1. At the beginning of your turn, choose a standard power character can't already use. Character can use that power until your next turn.

How does that work exactly? Can it "use" the ability or not given that its outwitted?
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Old 06/29/2012, 20:48
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Yes, they would be able to use HSS, as it is a separate source of the power.
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Old 06/29/2012, 20:50
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I'd say no.

Outwit is already saying this character cannot use (or possess) HSS.

Not sure how the IG giving the user an "use" of HSS is any different.

edit:

Hmmm, separate source of power...okay.
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Old 06/29/2012, 20:57
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W.I.T. is correct. It is just like if your character has toughness and picks up the Gem of Cyttorak. your opponent outwits your character's toughness, but your character still gets the benefit of the Gem of Cyttorak thus gaining toughness through it.
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Old 06/29/2012, 20:57
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I definitely want to know the official on this. What exactly happens to an outwitted power? How is "countered" defined pretty much.
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Old 06/29/2012, 21:09
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The "seperate sources" clause has had some interesting issues, IIRC.

For example, Metron cannot choose to use the P/PB granted by the Scorpio Key instead of the P/PB granted by The Price Of Knowledge. Source: http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showth...on+scorpio+key

Not sure how this works out, though. I could be off base entirely. I'm interested in hearing more. I'm subscribing. And rambling....need.nap.
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Old 06/29/2012, 21:14
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Quote : Originally Posted by CountingGardens View Post
I definitely want to know the official on this. What exactly happens to an outwitted power? How is "countered" defined pretty much.
I suggest the rulebook. For example, the 2012 rulebook, on page 16, has this to say in the last paragraph of Use and Possess
When a power or ability is countered, the targeted character is treated as if the power no longer appeared in the stat slot or the ability was no longer available through the whatever means the character was able to use the ability.
So if you outwit my HSS, I get to act as if it isn't even on the dial. So there is no reason to not be able to pick it for the power from special powers 2 or 3.
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Old 06/29/2012, 21:18
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If a power on the dial is countered, then you can use the power from a different source.
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Old 06/29/2012, 22:14
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To make this more confusing, the example of having Toughness OWed and still using it through the Crimson Gem is incorrect. If you have the power when you pick up the gem, the second source is ignored since you may not have the same power through seperate sources. But, if your Toughness is OWed and then on that turn, you roll to pick up the gem, then you may use the Toughness granted by the Gem.
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Old 06/29/2012, 22:48
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Quote : Originally Posted by razzed1 View Post
To make this more confusing, the example of having Toughness OWed and still using it through the Crimson Gem is incorrect. If you have the power when you pick up the gem, the second source is ignored since you may not have the same power through seperate sources. But, if your Toughness is OWed and then on that turn, you roll to pick up the gem, then you may use the Toughness granted by the Gem.


If you mean my example is incorrect because the toughness from the gem is ignored, then I do not see how it is incorrect since the point of the post was not regarding stacked powers, but rather use of the same power through multiple sources.

If you are saying that my example was incorrect because of how I had it laid out, then you are in error. In the example I gave, which is legal, your character has their toughness from their dial outwitted, but since they posses the gem of Cyttorak, toughness is never lost since the gem's toughness now kicks in. Your example is also correct, in that picking up the gem after having toughness out-witted would give the character back toughness; although I see little point of this since the outwit will end at the end of your turn thus returning toughness to you if it is still on dial.
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Old 06/29/2012, 23:14
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Quote : Originally Posted by rorschachparadox View Post
The "seperate sources" clause has had some interesting issues, IIRC.

For example, Metron cannot choose to use the P/PB granted by the Scorpio Key instead of the P/PB granted by The Price Of Knowledge. Source: http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showth...on+scorpio+key

Not sure how this works out, though. I could be off base entirely. I'm interested in hearing more. I'm subscribing. And rambling....need.nap.
Not the same. Metron's issue is when he "uses" P/PB he rolls for self damage. He can use it from the key he still has to roll since he is still "using" it, regardless of the source.
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Old 06/30/2012, 00:24
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Quote : Originally Posted by jdm61802 View Post
If you mean my example is incorrect because the toughness from the gem is ignored, then I do not see how it is incorrect since the point of the post was not regarding stacked powers, but rather use of the same power through multiple sources.

If you are saying that my example was incorrect because of how I had it laid out, then you are in error. In the example I gave, which is legal, your character has their toughness from their dial outwitted, but since they posses the gem of Cyttorak, toughness is never lost since the gem's toughness now kicks in. Your example is also correct, in that picking up the gem after having toughness out-witted would give the character back toughness; although I see little point of this since the outwit will end at the end of your turn thus returning toughness to you if it is still on dial.
The only time the powers that the gem grants are WHEN it is picked up. If you have toughness when you pick up the gem, you can never have toughness from the crimson gem.
Another example that fits this:
Eradicator can use toughness and super senses and has the gauntlet. At the end of that player's turn, he rolls for the gauntlet and lands on the Time Gem. He does not get Super Senses from the time gem showing because he can already use SS via his own SP. His opponent (on his turn) now OWs Eradicator's defense SP (assuming it is not a full IG), Eradicator cannot now use SS via the IG as he didn't get the power from the IG when he landed on it.
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Old 06/30/2012, 00:39
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Quote : Originally Posted by razzed1 View Post
The only time the powers that the gem grants are WHEN it is picked up. If you have toughness when you pick up the gem, you can never have toughness from the crimson gem.
Another example that fits this:
Eradicator can use toughness and super senses and has the gauntlet. At the end of that player's turn, he rolls for the gauntlet and lands on the Time Gem. He does not get Super Senses from the time gem showing because he can already use SS via his own SP. His opponent (on his turn) now OWs Eradicator's defense SP (assuming it is not a full IG), Eradicator cannot now use SS via the IG as he didn't get the power from the IG when he landed on it.
No, I don't think so. If you have toughness on the dial and you pick up the Gem you cannot use the toughness from the gem at that point,
but if you then have the Toughness on the dial countered the Toughness from the Gem becomes active. The same would apply to Eradicator and your Gauntlet example: he did get the power from the IG, he just can't use it. You can't use a power from multiple sources, and you don't (usually) get to pick what source you use. But if the primary source is countered the second source is still available.
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Old 06/30/2012, 01:15
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I may be wrong (and I don't mind being wrong), but look at "Using Effects" on the IG. It states that WHEN the gem is revealed you may use the effects if you cannot already use them. That means that only when it is revealed does that power "kick in".
Sorry, I am on my phone so research is limited. I will look into this more when I get home.

And to re-answer the OPs question: yes. If HSS is OWed, you can choose HSS as your power granted by the IG.
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Old 06/30/2012, 01:26
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Quote : Originally Posted by razzed1 View Post
The only time the powers that the gem grants are WHEN it is picked up. If you have toughness when you pick up the gem, you can never have toughness from the crimson gem.
Another example that fits this:
Eradicator can use toughness and super senses and has the gauntlet. At the end of that player's turn, he rolls for the gauntlet and lands on the Time Gem. He does not get Super Senses from the time gem showing because he can already use SS via his own SP. His opponent (on his turn) now OWs Eradicator's defense SP (assuming it is not a full IG), Eradicator cannot now use SS via the IG as he didn't get the power from the IG when he landed on it.


Thought that was were you might be making the mistake. When you pick-up an object that gives you a power that your character already posses, that power is ignored, it is not gone. If for some reason your character loses the power form their dial, then the ignored power form the object kicks in. The way you have it, if I pick up the Gem of Cyttorak, but have toughness, then I can never use toughness from the gem. This would mean that if later I lose toughness on the dial due to damage, I could not use the toughness from the gem. Sorry, but that is not how it works. Instead the toughness from the gem has been ignored until my character lost toughness on its dial, at that point the toughness from the gem kicks. in. Does not matter if my character lost toughness due to damage or out-wit.
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