I think this was a great article and a great discussion. I find it interesting to note that it is usually Marvel fans that claim there is a bias towards DC and DC fans that claim there is a bias toward Marvel.

The one thing that I would be interested in having addressed is how powers and dial stats interact. I feel that just looking at damage and HSS doesn't really draw out the whole picture. Defense powers and values were never touched on and those greatly effect how a game is won or lost. Also the prevalence of powers such as psychic blast and exploit weakness were not discussed. I have also observed that the game is dominated by range which often easily out performs non ranged teams, and yet range values were not even discussed.

Of course it sounds like the amount of work already done for this article was substantial so it is easy to understand why these other areas may not have been feasible to include. But I do feel that if you really wanted to see if their is bias these areas should be addressed. And of course since I feel this way I should really do the work to compile that information, but I am lazy.

I prefer DC over Marvel. Any JLA, Gotham City, Metropolis & Avengers keyword teams is what I normally play. The Fantastic Four would be my other Marvel team if I run it, but most of the time the FF are mixed in with the Avengers.

But I can see how this article came out and I must agree with it. Marvel with a 2 -1 advantage easily comes out on top. I know I have been playing more Marvel then DC, but most of this is because of the tourneys and what is required to play in them. Right now it is a huge advantage to play Marvel. Only 75th, Superman and GL: War of Light provide decent modern age pieces for it when team building. Hopefully it will change to a more balanced game when these DC releases start coming out later this year.

But no matter what, it will still be an advantage toward Marvel. Since its seems like over half of the Marvel universe heroes now has the Avengers keyword. With DC's best team the JLA, you have like 8 different teams and you cant build the best/ultimate version of the team, like you can with the Avengers.

Until that gets settled and they either bust up the Avengers into their own little seperate teams, or combine the JLA keywords. Marvel will always have an Advantage over DC.

Repeating this question as I hear it repeated so frequently but have never heard that it was more than speculation.

EDIT: Saw sol's reply, but still wonder how many of the usual things that get blamed on this are actually DC and not just generalizing from specific cases.

I recall back in the day when Seth was full-time with WK and BrotherMagento was around, we'd get some tidbits about characters requested by WK but rejected by the companies. The examples leaned toward DC.

* Detective Chimp eventually made it into DC75, but was rejected for Collateral Damage, so we got him as a pog.

* The Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter was a character Seth really wanted to get made, but he told us DC turned him down a few times.

* Morbius was proposed for Monsters & Mutations but turned down by Marvel. Cropped up a set later, though.

There may have been a few more examples, but those are the three that popped into my head. And some of these tidbits were from the Q&A thread on the old Wizkids forums, so those are gone. Of course, post-Topps, we don't get this type of inside info now.

On the flip side, I recall WK put out the preview sculpts of the Blackest Night within weeks of the issue where the deputies were selected. That has to be the strongest example of one of the companies being eager to work with WK on their properties.

BTW, due to licencing agreements, I will remind you that the Bat-Sentry, DOES NOT HAVE MOVABLE ARMS. Any movement you see is an optical illusion :->

you wont be saying that this time next year!

the event and the slew of marvel product this year has a lot of DC fans saying this. but once we are the majority of the way through next years event and sets, all us marvel fans will be moaning. dont worry every dog has its day as the old saying goes.

i'm just wanting to get more Sinestro corp stuff from it all... here's to hoping its not all SR & Chase as per usual in that regard. and if i'm honest more none human lanterns in general
p.s love the profile pick

while i agree with some things i cant agree with your disdain for FF's and to a lesser degree GF's i mean you dont have to get them all, there's nothing wrong with being a collector who only completes the main sets.
the FF sets normally give us 1 or 2 super rares (and maybe a similar number of rares) sculpt wise that poorer gamers (myself included) might otherwise never pull. + a map, and who doesnt like maps

with all this talk of the number of DC Supes HSS+SS+high damage comments i really have to ask...

Why does Superman get hypersonic so much? i remember seeing Thor R from chaos war's dial and thinking HSS? thats not really Thor's style, he doesnt tend to hit and run much... i mean he can, if he needed to, but i dont see him shying away from any fight. i just ended up putting it down to it being late dial, and this was his wake up call to take things a little more seriously. but with Supes he always seems to start with it and drop down to charge.

so whats his deal? now my knowledge of Supes is; the films, a few JLA cartoons, his cameo in Sinestro war & Red Sun. i've never seen him fighting in a hit and run style? does he do it as often in his comics? as much as he does in a standard game of clix? would it be more appropriate to be a late dial thing instead like with Thor?

sorry if i'm hashing up an old debate here and if i am, can someone link me in to the post(s)

Great Article, just had to say if it hasn't been mentioned yet, The HOT Thor/Loki can't use the split and merge mechanic either.

What am I missing? There's a ton of Thor's and more than enough Loki's.

Keep this in mind

Modern age sets

DC75(DC)
GSX(MARVEL)
CAP(MARVEL)
SM(DC)
HULK(marvel)
GalGaurd(MARVEL)
Chaos War(MARVEL)

SM FF(DC)
IH FF(MARVEL)
GG FF(MARVEL)
CW FF (MARVEL)
AVM(marvel)
DKR(DC)
AVM FF(MARVEL)
DKR FF (DC)
Gsx FF (marvel)
DC WoL( dc)

Based on this list

Marvel outnumbers DC 11-6sets

Which is almost doubled

Another for the building category of "DC characters that have enhanced LOF abilities but are much more restrained than those on Marvel figures."

#017 Unique Rare Oracle
Team: Batman Ally
Range: 0
Points: 73
Keywords: Batman Family, Birds of Prey, Gotham City, Justice League, Martial Artist

5 9 16 1

5 9 15 1

5 9 14 1

4 8 15 1

4 8 15 1

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

My Eyes Are Everywhere If Oracle is not adjacent to an opposing character and is either in her starting area or on elevated terrain, she can draw lines of fire and count range and squares from the square of any single friendly character that has the Batman Family, Birds of Prey or Justice League keyword.
The Mystery of the Oracle Give Oracle a power action and choose Outwit, Perplex, or Probability Control. She can use the chosen power until the beginning of her next turn.

"Much more restrained" is a bit of an understatement, doncha think?

And since you mentioned "restraint" in mechanics from Marvel to DC, I must say I'm surprised that a Bencrawler vs. Massu-Adam discrepancy hasn't been brought up yet.

And it was commented on, as you can read here

From http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpo...60&postcount=2

And here

from http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpo...2&postcount=71

Cheers,

So the end of the year came and went, and I recalled my promise to look in and tabulate to the year's end some of the numbers, as a few thought my poll biased since DC had 3 sets coming out (10, BM, SoG) to Marvel's 2 (CW, 10).

The tenth sets offered no new characters, though in terms of game elements DC fans got the first removable mechanic on Green Lantern's construct barrier, and Marvel evened the odds with Magneto's magnetic debris bubble - DC is still at a deficit as far as that mechanic is concerned, having only Geo-Force in Batman with a removable hand.


In terms of character selection Chaos War offered some never been clixed figures:

70 CW002 Iron Man Drone
60 CW003 Ultron Drone
50 CW004 Egghead
45 CW006 Space Phantom
27 CW007 Masque Duplicate
50 CW008 Lava Man
32 CW009 Shadow Council Soldier
25 CW012 Dinah Soar
100 CW018 Jinku
69 CW019 Max Fury
95 CW020 Black Knight
55 CW021 Speed
41 CW025 Nitro
43 CW026 Ant-Man (Eric O'grady)
75 CW016 Wasp
40 CW033 Victoria Hand
299 CW045 Void
236 CW046 The Unspoken
350 CW051 Chaos King
82 CW052 Lockjaw and Hairball (not sure where to rate this as Hairball has never been done before).
50 CW206 Masque

There's a lot of no-named or C-listers there, but still a few voids were filled on team rosters for the MoE & Avengers.

DC offered an amazing amount of unclixed figures from the Batman universe, the JLI, WIldstorm and the G10 including:

BM003 Arkham Asylum Guard
47 BM004 The Joker Thug
80 BM009 Red Robin
100 BM010 Blackbat
88 BM012 Grifter
50 BM015 Nightrunner
44 BM018 Aaron Cash
82 BM020 KGBeast
92 BM021 Thunder
50 BM023A Sasha Bordeaux
113 BM024 Maul
71 BM016 Batgirl
74 BM026 Roy Raymond, Jr.
60 BM027 Dick Grayson
75 BM028 Zealot
43 BM029 Godiva
92 BM030 El Gaucho
83 BM033 Bad Samaritan
89 BM039 Hugo Strange
75 BM042 Batwing
92 BM043 Warblade
50 BM044 Mr. Unknown
92 BM047 Doctor Phosphorus
78 BM049 Socialist Red Guardsman
198 BM050 ReMac
91 BM054 Voodoo
100 BM055 The Insider
83 BM101 Renegade

Sons of Gotham offered:


55 SOG002 Lady Blackhawk
82 SOG011 Dr. Hurt
32 SOG016 Harvey Bullock
52 SOG020 Calendar Man
45 SOG024 Mr. Zsasz
96 SOG025 OMAC
57 SOG029 Onomatopoeia
50 SOG031 The Architect
70 SOG035 Void
125 SOG036 Spartan Warrior Spirit
93 SOG037 Emp
76 SOG038 David Cain
75 SOG042 Starling
82 SOG046 Crux
43 SOG102 Dr. Thomas Wayne

I can't really count the Batman Chase variants except the Insider which was a whole different identity for Bruce, and I guess you could count the Ghosts if you wanted as well as many of the generic police officers, but again we're talking about figures that were included that no one was really clamoring for. I looked over the Hired Henchman because we have had characters with that name before, and he's really a no-name goon of the most generic sort. Even Arkham Guard is a step up - I don't think we've ever had a prison guard before. I also dismissed the Flock of Bats as in terms of characters people have been waiting forever for, the Bats are nowhere on anyone's radar (or is that sonar?).

While there is a lot of figures that were first time dialed in Batman, few tap into DC's rich history - most of them are from recent Batman arcs, Nu52 stories and such. Oddballs like Tweedledee and Tweedledum, the Trigger Twins, Killer Moth, Maxie Zeus etc saw no love this year, nor did the Bat-mite, made popular from the Batman cartoon, or Ace the Bat-Hound. Not even a nod to Batman Beyond, despite Superman Beyond's inclusion a year earlier.

The Wildcats showed up with Indy inspired dials, which is to say they aren't exactly competitive. I will say this, those that argue that DC is overpowered have swayed me slightly with their complaints. Having seen characters like Batwoman in the ~70 point range with Flurry, Perplex, Outwit, etc tear down Kryptonian level figures is just wrong. In fact, there's TOO many figures in the Bat-Family that qualify for the old Brilliant tactician feat - Batman, Nightwing, Batwoman, Lucius Fox, Stephie Brown Batgirl, even the freaking Bat-Cycle has Outwit and Perplex.

I can't say that there's enough evidence to argue that design has a power bias towards DC, or that there's any favoritism towards DC (again, look at the Wildcats), but I can say that there feels like a bias towards certain figures or keywords, with Batman and Nightwing at the top of the list. One doesn't have to look far to see just how ridiculously good EVERY version of Nightwing produced this year is. You know a figure is good when you look at a dial and say "I'd pay10+ more points for that figure."

As an example: here's some of the special powers and abilities seen on the Nightwings ranging from 72-100 points:

(Improved) Acrobat: Nightwing can use Improved Movement: Ignores Hindering Terrain, Ignores Characters.

(Special) A Leader on any Team: Nightwing is a wild card. When you reveal your force, choose a friendly character's keyword; Nightwing possesses that keyword for the rest of the game. Nightwing can use Leadership, but only removes action tokens from characters using a team ability that Nightwing can use.
(Damage) Charismatic Leader: Nightwing can use Leadership. When he does, all adjacent characters are considered a lower point value.
(Speed) You Can't Take the Circus Out of the Boy: Nightwing can use Charge, Flurry, and Leap/Climb.

That last power is something I want to dwell on. Take a look:

bm008 Nightwing
Team: Batman Ally
Range: 5
Points: 72
Keywords: Batman Family, Batman Inc, Bludhaven

8 10 17 3

8 10 16 2

8 10 15 2

6 9 17 2

6 10 16 3

6 9 16 2

6 9 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

(Speed) You Can't Take the Circus Out of the Boy: Nightwing can use Charge, Flurry, and Leap/Climb.

(Attack) Suit Taser: Nightwing can use Incapacitate and Quake.

We're talking about a permanently stealthy 72 point figure that can Charge and Flurry for 3 natural damage that also thematically teams up with several low cost perplexers or a Utility Belt and can easily deal 6 damage per attack. This is also in the new era where even a Superman has 6 clicks of life.

So yeah, I'll agree that DC has some slant in power, though I don't think it is intentional, or evenly distributed among figures, but rather it skews towards certain marquee figures. I think Marvel has similar issues with certain characters and if you know where to look you'll find them.

Finally, I think people will see bias where they want and pick out what they want. Power gamers (people that play Dial-clix more than they play Hero-Clix) are more likely to say that DC has some slant, but DC fans are always thematically getting the shaft in terms of character selection and game mechanics with one exception: Vehicles.

Batman gave the DC crowd Vehicles, which has turned into a good and bad thing, again depending on who you ask. I personally have a hard time explaining how the Invisible Jet made it into Killer Croc's sewer, or the interior of Arkham Asylum, or why the Bat-Plane is so slow, or why Blue Beetles Bug is such a tough nutshell to crack. DC is one up there, but still lags in terms of colossi, removable mechanics, etc.

An update of the categories as rated:

=================================================

Game Mechanics: Simply put, these are the bells and whistles that go above and beyond the core rules to keep the old players coming back for more and give the potentially new players something shiny to draw them in.

Giants: Winner: Marvel

Colossal Figures: Winner: Marvel

Transporters: Winner: Marvel

Duos: Winner: DC

Split and Merge: Winner: Marvel.

Alter Ego: Winner: Marvel

Battlefield Promotion: Winner: DC

Special 3D Objects: Winner: DC.

[b]Removable Elements: Winner: Marvel

Resource Dial: Winner: Tie

Vehicles: Winner: DC.

With a total of 11 sub categories,

Marvel still edges out DC 6-4 with 1 tie in in Game Mechanics.

There's a new category here: Vehicles, which helps bridge the gap between DC and Marvel. Really, I'm not sure that DC winning the Duo Wars is even a good thing, I think many could argue that Duos not exactly a premium game mechanic, especially as many DC Duos cannot split and merge.

The tie for resource dials is a little misleading as well considering that Marvel fans have a complete infinity gauntlet to run to, while as of the end of 2012, DC fans were lucky to have a belt or any objects to put on it.


=================================================

Game Statistics: Some players will swear up and down that DC packs more power onto their dials. True or False, right or wrong - this can entirely be subjective to the reviewer. However, the numbers don't lie and a quick search of the database reveals some interesting facts.

There's way too many facets to focus on so to start, we'll take a look at one of the greatest powers in the game - Hypersonic Speed, and we'll compare it, along with the greatest common damage output (5) to single based figures from both universes.

Hypersonic Speed: Winner: DC

Damage Output: Winner: Marvel

Speed and Damage combined: Winner: DC

With 3 categories in this section, DC edges out Marvel 2-1.

I don't see that much has changed with the last sets of the year in this department. Marvel got more natural 6 damage figures (Chaos King, Worldbreaker), DC got more Superman, Flash, etc. The powers and dials for some of the Batman figures are really strong when used in the right combination, though the only beatstick in the Batman themed sets was Big Barda (and arguably Omega Bats), whereas Chaos War pumped out Ares, Sentry, Sentry and Void, Thor and Hercules, Doom and Kang, etc etc. Marvel went out with a bang, whereas DC closed out 2012 with a shadow.

=================================================

Team building options: Both companies have thousands of colorful characters to draw inspiration from, but is there one that does it better when it comes to creating game play options?

Team Abilities: Winner: Marvel

Keywords: Winner: Marvel

Character Selection: When narrowing the field down to post-Topps Neca reboot, the numbers drop to about 300 new, never before clixed figures for Marvel to maybe 150 for DC. Winner: Marvel

Putting it all together:

My original assessment was this:

Still with Marvel winning 2 out of 3 categories it's fair to say there might be a bias - towards Marvel.

And in all honesty, I can't say much has changed, but I will say that a lot of the gap between the two has been bridged, and that it is really almost too close to call now. DC has more fun mechanics available but is it enough to outweigh what other options Marvel has available?

I think the biggest gap is not power creep for one particular company (unless your company is Wildstorm) but is more thematic in nature. DC seems to suffer right now from character selection more than anything else. If you're not a Superman or Batman fan, there's not a lot of figures to turn to if you want to play a villainous team. Wonder Woman, the Flash, the Justice League all have a huge hole in their Rogues Galleries. Amazo, Circe, Cheetah, Giganta, Felix Faust, Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Shadow Thief, Gentleman Ghost and staple villains like Kobra & his minions are sorely in need of updating.

And how is it in terms of sculpt re-use that we don't have a Zoom? Or the Crime Syndicate (would have been a perfect team pack instead of that awfully dialed Trinity). Even a repainted "Rex Mason" as Shift in an Outsiders team pack. Those are easies - WizKids throw us a bone!

Likewise, it's been over 5 years since we've had a proper Big Red Cheese Shazam - a perfect shoe in for the AE mechanic with a Billy Batson. How about a new Plastic Man or Metamorpho both with a Morph ability? Heck, it took them 10 years to give fans an updated Huntress or single based Hawk and Dove (and we didn't get a Kestrel repaint?!). Even the most recent Superman set failed to deliver some basic Superman goods - fans didn't get a proper power suit version of Lex Luthor or any Brainiac that wasn't from the future until the 10th anniversary set.

There's just been some odd choices made available via DC - for instance the JLI has gotten a lot of love from the nuWK (Neca) administration - despite Ted Kord being all but removed from current relevance he's gotten two updates and a vehicle. Meanwhile most of the JLI's viallins remain in limbo - Clock King and Cluemaster could have been amazing inclusions in SoG with Major Disaster, Big Sur and Multi-Man as a team pack. Boom! One and done. It's odd to me that the heros from that era are so well represented but the villains are not (the Grey man would make a great common!).

And finally there's the question of the DC Fan Vote, which, let's face it, was deeply slanted towards figures that were already going to be made or remade at some point. There's not a single figure on that list that wouldn't have fit the themes of the Batman (Rose and Thorn, Captain Atom) or Titans (Starfire) set with the exception of Sand and Kanja-Ro. Two of the choices on that poll have already been made (Fire, Starfire) and it won't be shocking to see Amazo & Red Tornado pop up in the Young Justice set alongside a new Morrow or Ivo (do I smell a prime labcoat variant?).

Compare the DC fan vote choices to Marvel which had so many more obscure or D-list characters (Xemnu? Sleepwalker) that I don't expect will be made any time soon.

As far as why there's a bias - I'd say it boils down to simple legalese on the licensing agreement - it seems like DC has a tighter contract with WizKids that includes something to the effect of "You must put a Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman in every expansion" not to mention the push for the nu52, which might even be a certain % of a given set (over 50).

Marvel doesn't seem to tie WizKids hands in the same way, though again this is pure speculation. It's safe to say that I am a little biased as well (or at least I was, as it seems DC is doing everything in its power with regard to current comic books to make me into a Marvel fan) - I have tried breaking it down by numbers to make it a fair fight, and I think it's as fair as it gets.

Thanks for reading. What do you think? Is there a Bias in game design towards Marvel or DC? Let us know by posting in the comments section below!