Oh definitely. Banner is the true monster, after all. For reals!
Quote : Originally Posted by MrJcob
My Favorite Banner quote is:
“IT JUST NOW OCCURS TO ME THAT MAYBE THE REAL REASON I BECAME THE HULK…
… WAS TO PROTECT THE WORLD FROM BANNER”
Even Banner had to admit after the fact, Hulk is the Hero.
Or Hulk is at least less of a monster.
After all this, I decided to reread WWH today. Hulk was nastier than I remembered.
My new conclusion is Worldbreaker is Banner realized. Worldbreaker Hulk is Banner in a Hulk's body. Smart, cold, calculating, and willing to do anything, because he can. I base this, in part, on the statement that WBHulk made in #4: "Banner is Me."
And then in IH #601 Banner said "I just wanted MY stuff back" as he picked up Hulk's sword.
Worldbreaker Hulk is Banner, Banner is villain, therefore Worldbreaker Hulk is Villain.
Well, it's a character that has multiple personalities that fight for dominance over one another at different times. Yeah, that's insane. Check out how whacked out Banner got in Aaron's run. He turned into Marvel's own Dr. Moreau.
That having been said, Banner/Hulk isn't insane on the level that characters like Carnage and Joker are, as they (for the most part) still try to avoid causing harm to people. I do think that Worldbreaker was a more or less lucid personality when he was in control.
Uh-uh, no half-steppin'.
If the Hulk's insane, then he should be put down permenantly.
Hey guys at my venue I decided to run a game where all figures had to be villains, Dc and Marvel. Today I was asked the question whether I would consider World Breaker Hulk a villain or not. Since the folks at the comic shop were unable to help me to decide, I figured I would see what folks here though. You will be the deciding factor.
Let's hear it!!
If you consider the Illuminatti evil, then the Worldbreaker Hulk could be considered a Hero, since he was banished from the Earth by the Illuminatti, who are an elite group of wealthy who run the World, and who some claim are evil and caused the Hulk's pregnant wife Caiera's death. The Illuminatti thought the Hulk was a threat to Earth, so they tricked him into going into space. The Hulk later learned that the spaceship carrying his pregnant wide Caiera, which had exploded and killed her, was allowed to happen, and that he was betrayed by one of his friends and learned the bomb was planted by the Red King Troops,so he just went nuts, and came back to Earth to seek his vengeance on the Illuminatti. I really do not like the storyline, and wished it was never made.
the only reason i say NOT a villian, is Ghost Rider whipped out the ole Penance Stare on him, and it didn't work because he wasn't in the wrong. that right there makes me disagree with calling him a villain
I called TOTAL BS on that when it happened.
The reason being was that he was seeking revenge AND he was going after more than just the Illuminati. If he stuck to just taking out the Illuminati then I'd be a little more ok. But he DESTROYED TONS of property owned by people who has nothing to do with his search for vengeance AND in the process PROVED the Illuminati was right all along in sending him somewhere else.
And of course there was the whole Fighting to the Death thing.......
I wouldn't go so far as to call him a Villain, but he certainly wasn't a hero.
There's a lot of really depressing faux philosophy going on here, and I don't like it.
Faux is French for fake
The English usage of the word is to denote something artificial (i.e. faux diamonds) or an imitation, knock off, or a pretender with this latter definition having connotation of shallowness
Now, to clarify, is it faux philosophy that is depressing you or is the philosophy shallow AND depressing
Or, more to my point, is it the fact that no one has bowed to your superior wisdom and accepted your argument fait accompli that is depressing you? Please have a lie down on my couch, we will see what we can do. But first, tell me about your mother?
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum <- my view on gun control
oderint, dum metuant <- my view on foreign policy
Alea jacta est <- my view on taking back declared actions
I think the best interwoven story arc was in "Heroes for Hire"
I would have to agree that Worldbreaker is Banner and heck I don't think Banner has Peter Parker's philosophy in mind when he relishes in smashing. (reference Worldbreaker Hulk vs the Red King, X-Men and Fin Fang Foom)
As someone who has been a Hulk fan for over 30 years, and who has read not only World War Hulk, but also the various tie in stories and actual HULK tie ins to the story, I honestly do not see where Hulk can be labeled as either a hero or villian for this story line, as he blurs the line through out the entire story.
First, let's clarify a few things that seem to have been thrown around in this thread without truly understanding them . . . the Illuminati ( sans Namor ) decided to send the Hulk off into space and away from Earth due to his constant rampages. They have chosen a peaceful planet for Hulk so that he can spend his time, alone, just as he's always wanted.
Was this Heroic? Yes . . . considering the amount of destruction done by the Hulk, I can understand their logic.
Was this Villianous? Yes . . . transporting someone against their will, at a minimum, is kidnapping . . . not a very heroic thing to do. Since, as they put it, Hulk always wanted to be alone, couldn't they have accomplished the same thing by ASKING the Hulk if he wanted to go, spelling out the benefits of the planet in question?
Ok, in transit, Hulk throws a fit, damaging the kraft and throwing it off course . . . it enters an undocumented wormhole of sorts, and winds up on Sakar. Hulk goes through several trials and challenges during Planet Hulk, only to arrive at a point where he's king of the planet, has a wife, a child on the way, and is beloved by almost all. Then, mysteriously, his transport explodes.
Ok . . . now, put yourself in Hulk's shoes for a moment . . . you've been kidnapped, told that you were being sent away, hurtled across the universe, and the ship that you were sent in went BOOM! What would you think was the cause? Personally, I can see how he immediately thought that Stark and Company were responsible . . . what better way to ensure the Hulk never comes back than to eliminate his transportation.
NOTE: This explosion does NOT destroy the planet. Skaar, Son of Hulk takes place AFTER WWH, and the planet is still there . . . not sure why folks keep saying this, but just wanted to clarify. The only thing destroyed by the exploding ship is A) the capital city, B) Caiera, and C) Hulks unborn child ( or so he thinks ).
Now, because he's not on the planet the Illuminati said he was going to ( and hmm, don't you think someone might have wanted to check on this after sending him, if only to ensure that he made it?), he does have transportation, so he makes it back to Earth. Here's where things start to blur the whole hero / villian thing . . .
Hulk has been described, since almost his inception, as unbridled ID. As such, he tends to act on impulse and wants immediate satisfaction for his wants. In this case, he's back, he blames the Illuminati, and he's seeking vengeance / justice.
1A. Hulk thrashes Black Bolt, holds him up and tells everyone "Give me the Illuminati or I do this to the whole world".
1B. Hulk tells the entire population of the city of New York to leave otherwise he can't be held responsibile for anything that might happen.
Villianous - Yes, and as some have said, terrorist like.
Heroic - Also yes . . . rarely does the villian sit down and tell you what he's going to do before he does it, nor does he give you time to get yourself out of harms way prior to proceeding forward. For those of you that read Civil War, I give you Nitro as a perfect example of this point.
The only people in real life that opperate in this way, by providing advance warning to a forthcoming bad situation, are police, FBI, or military. When approaching something where the outcome is probably not going to be pretty, all three of these groups will attempt to get innocents out of harms way before proceeding. So, given how loudly folks have said that this is an act of a villian, I can only hope that they've neglected to consider these examples. Sadly, these aren't the best examples to relate to Hulk . . . I think of this act as more of a National Hurricane warning being issued, and telling everyone to evacuate . . . you know the storm is coming, so get the heck out of dodge or end up riding it out and taking your chances.
2. Hulk then works his way through the entire hero population of New York, along with his World Bound, and proceeds to decimate them.
Villianous? Yes, most definitely.
Heroic? Also yes. He is doling out what he sees as justice for what was done against him. In each instance, if the Illuminati member had simply stepped forward and taken responsibility for their actions, this wouldn't have happened. Reed Richards . . . of course the FF get involved. Tony Stark . . . of course the Avengers get involved. You'll notice that some of the heros even question their own actions, as they sympathize with the Hulk and what they would have done in his shoes . . .
Some have said his basis is "because they shot me into space", and this is true . . . this is the reason he provides. But like the saying goes, is it better to have loved and lost, or to never have loved at all? If the Hulk hadn't been sent into space, the rest of the circumstances wouldn't have played out as they did, the ship wouldn't have exploded, and the Hulk would never have had the perceived reason to come back mad. Not having all those reasons, would he have done the same thing? Probably not.
3. The Hulk holds a gladiator style court, forcing the Illuminati to fight themselves.
Villianous - Oh yes, very Nero-like.
Heroic - Also yes. He's been living on a planet that uses this as their justice system, and since he holds the Illuminati responsible for putting him there, he's using the justice system that he, as the ruler of that planet, would be justified in using.
4. Miek is revealed, Hulk's rage goes off the charts, and he just about puts the eastern seaboard into the ocean.
Villianous - Most definitely . . . let's save the heroic part for a moment.
5. Recognizing that he can't control himself, he not only sets himself up to be defeated, but actually asked them to do so.
Heroic - Again, yes . . . Hulk has been described, since almost his inception, as unbridled ID. As such, he tends to act on impulse and wants immediate satisfaction for his wants. In this instance, his rage is at his own duplicity for not investigating the explosion himself, learning the true cause, and holding the Illuminati responsible for the emotional pain and personal loss he experinced when they were not at fault. By overcoming this, and asking to be stopped, he is taking responsibilty for his actions and setting himself up for the reckoning he deserves . . . you won't find many villians that do this. In fact the most recent example prior to this was when Captain America surrendered at the end of Civil War.
So . . . for each action, there were both villianous and heroic reasoning that can be attributed, so the question as to whether he is hero or villian is still left unanswered. I agree with a previous poster that said NEITHER . . . it's the best answer to this question.
Now, I know I didn't touch upon the damage he inflicted on New York . . . and for those of you familiar with both Marvel lore, you'll know that New York is home of Damage Control, the company responsible for cleaning up all the damage caused during superhero fights. So . . .
Villianous - Again, most definitely. Would the damage have still been incurred if the Illuminati had simple stepped up, as the HEROS they claimed to be, and kept everyone else out of it . . . well, we'll have to wait for the WHAT IF...? that covers that side of the story.
Heroic - Again, he took the fight to the one city in the world that he knew could be returned to it's natural state in the shortest period of time.
And, no deaths occured during WWH . . . in fact, if you read some of the cross overs, you'll find an issue of Incredible Hercules in which Amadeus Cho finds the Hulk saving people that didn't evacuate from damage he's causing . . . and while some may not call this heroic, given that he caused the situation, again, I say that a true villian would have not have bothered to save them.