I agree with Veggiehater when he says that Apocalypse sounds like Magneto of the first set, in that they're not as powerful as they should be represented. What stands out for me is X-Factor 25, where the team couldn't lay a finger on him. If Apocalypse turns his arms into a wall, you're not going to hit him, plain and simple.

Just my two cents... Manchine has every right to say anything, and spread it on as thick as he wants. Everyone does, whether they're flaming people or not. What astounds me is that they always have the nerve to look surprised when people don't agree...! An argument is what they're looking for, and if you're fool enough to give it to 'em, it's your fault they tie up the thread so long.

Apocalypse IS incredibly strong. He should be strong enough to tangle with Doom, Ultron and Kang. ( Thanos no...he got screwed :P ) I personally think Manchine has ALOT of very good points and is one of the better posters on this site, so dont get me wrong when I disagree with him, even tho heavily in this instance. I can argue and not hold grudges. I dont take arguements personally to the least.

Trust me Gorrack I love to discuss. In most cases I never let it bother me. Its a Discussion bored you have to be open to ideas that are not what you think. Like earlier I put down edited for stupidity. Becuase I reread it and said thats was a stupid idea and it was.

I remember XFactor 25. My thought on that if Colossus before he died walked in and took on Apocalypse back in issue Xfactor 25 who would win? But if you took Apocaylpse now what would happen. Makes ya think.

As for I am the Game. Is that a good thing or a bad thing. I think its a good thing but I cant quite tell by the post. :D

PS I would give him a 16 DV also if I did him in Character Creation for his younger self. I do understand a 15 also.

PSS Doom would kick any incaranation of Apocalypse arse

Years later... I agree with Manchine and Veggie about the U's and specific time periods. U's are made to represent a specific occurance in the character's history. In the case of Apocolypse, it was when he was first introduced. The REV's represent their general growth throughout their history. That being said.... seems like the non-flying Storm would be a U rather than an E. But thems the breaks.

SL35

Well it did take a while for them to give Storm's powers back.

Now i disagree with Doom always being able to take Apocalypse a bit. Lets say Apocalypse grows REALLY REALLY HUGE and just teleports in and wrecks havoc. At that stage i dont see doom standing much of a chance. Apoc can handle most weapons Doom could hit him with as well. Dont say Doom is more intelligent and crafty than Apocalypse either, as at the worst theyw ould be even. Hes immortal, time travelled and has a perception of reality that even doom could not fathom. As great of tactician and strategist and scientist that DOom is, Apocalypse is just as good. He would be second guessing Doom just as well as Doom would be him. And in pure physical might, APocalypse wins out as well. But I say we let them fight and than let Magneto kick the hell outta both of them :P

Also...this MAY be a hint to JonL...MAYBE :P... it would be nice to see if someone from Wizkids could confirm if this apocalypse was indeed intended to be his earlier incarnations or not.

I certainly agree that some uniques represent specific time periods, but I think the blanket statements about it like the one above aren't quite true.

Specific issues can be noted for several uniques like U Batman or U Cyclops and the like.

But what are the specific issues/time periods for:

U Vision
U Quasar
U Nightmare
U Professor X
U Juggernaut
U Nick Fury
U Mojo
U Super Skrull
U Spiral
U Medusa
U Enchantress
U Deathbird
U Sauron
U Lady Deathstrike

to name some?

Some of those are specific times. Most of what you named are people that have never really changed from when we first seen them to what they are now.

U Vision -- Never has changed
U Quasar -- Never has changed
U Nightmare -- Never has changed
U Professor X -- Specific time when he was with Illandra (shiar)
U Juggernaut -- When his helment is knocked off before his leather cap
U Nick Fury -- Never has changed
U Mojo -- Never has changed
U Super Skrull -- Never has changed
U Spiral -- Never has changed
U Medusa -- Never has changed
U Enchantress -- When she was with Masters of Evil
U Deathbird -- Never has changed
U Sauron -- Never has changed
U Lady Deathstrike -- Never has changed

Vision has changed significantly, if not in all of his powers and abilities but definetely in appearance... for a lengthy period of time as well..

Visions looks changed but not his powers. He has had exactly the same powers as before when he started.

Which means that they don't represent a specific time. They can represent basically any time in that character's history.

U. Quasar is from Quaser post-issue 18 (I believe). After Maelstrom cut off his hands and he was visited by Deathurge, reunited with his hands (and quantum) bands, you got the Quasar with the eternity cloak (you can see the stars in it) that you see in the figure they put out.

If it was Pre-Maelstrom, he'd have a much worse costume with this giant yellow heart on his chest, red underwear, bare arms... ug. It was awful.

Only if the character doesnt have any growth. Are you trying to tell me that Apocalypse hasnt gotten better since when he first came out?

Almost all of those characters have "changed", whether through their evolution or improving themselves. I do believe that there are a lot of time specific U's but that does not mean all of them are. Here are some examples:

Nightmare has taken on many forms and his powers have been altered a few times as well. Quasar has also had some alterations including slight costume changes, hair cuts, and has become more powerful with more experience. Nick Fury started his career in the military and after becoming a sheild operative, took over. There were many times when Juggernaut lost his helmet. Spiral was a mojoworld bountyhunter before she took up with mojo. And almost all of those other charecters have had some sort of evolution.

The real question though is why they would decide to make a fig of Apocalypse (who is in my opinion the biggest threat to the X-charecters world(s)) when he was in his weakest stage instead of what his "average" power level is. Most of the time old El Sahba is kicking ### and taking names. He freakin took over the entire world in AoA for chris't sakes. If you wanted to make a good apocalypse that everone is going to be happy with then why not make him the way he normaly is?


If you were to ask Cable/Soldier X who the most dangerous/toughest/threatening villain was...

And one more thing, Apocalypse could and did (sortof) kick the #### out of Doom. Period.

Vision- veteran level
Quasar-veteran level
Nightmare- same as always
Proffesor X - Slightly less Veteran with Hover Chair
Juggernaut - E with Helmet off (pretty much)
Nick Fury - veteran level (and that's the truth)
Mojo - same as always
Super Skrull - pretty much same as always or veteran level-more arguable than others
Spiral - same as always
Medusa - pretty much the same
Enchantress - same as always (which would be rookie if you say WHEN she was a Master of Evil)
Deathbird - JonL even says 'same as always'
Sauron - vet level or same as always
Deathstryke - same as always

A lot of Uniques are just general interpretations of a lot of the characters who just don't need regulars...Nighcrawler and Fury were REVs at first...but why? the Unique is good enough. Vision is pretty much the same now as he was in 69. Nightmare same deal. No need for REVs on a lot of those guys.