Ok, here's what my Scarecrow's (DKR) card says, regarding the TA: "BATMAN ENEMY: This character may use the attack value of an adjacent friendly Batman Enemy user."

Here's the official Sinister Syndicate TA: (Unless it's been updated.)

"Characters using the Sinister Syndicate team ability may replace their attack value with the unmodified attack value of an adjacent friendly character using the Sinister Syndicate team ability."

So does that mean that Batman Enemy's can Perplex up an AV, and THEN share it?! Or am I missing something?? 'Cuz the Sin. Sy. TA mentions UNMODIFIED attack value. i.e. Doc Ock can't Perplex his attach to 13, and share it with everybody else. So like i said, has this been updated? Or can Batman Enemies Perplex and then share a sky high attack value??

It appears so, expect an errata. Although that would make a atman enemy team more enticing to play.

My guess is any judge is going to refer you to the PAC, which states unmodified and call that an error in the meantime.

Here's the Team abilities on the official website.

More power to the Batman Enemies if its different on the new pac.

It is an issue of Replace then Modify. If you have 2 characters with the TA and you perplex character A's attack, he lends his attack value (replace) to character B before he modifies his own. The clause is merely a redundancy to help answer the particular question.

That is how I have been reading it ever since the big change to Replace then Modify.

It's been said before that the condensed description of PAC powers found on some cards isn't official when compared to the PAC description. I would imagine that the TA would follow. It's over-simplified language, so it looses some of the effect.

Plus, as ChiRocker said, the Golden rule of Replace than Modify wins. They could remove the word I modified from the current TA text, and it would still work the same.

I don't believe the replace then modify rule applies to both figures at the same time. If you take out the word unmodified, you run into issues with timing. Lets say you have Joker and Two-Face adjacent to each other. Two-Face has perplex while Joker has an 11 attack and Two-Face has a 9. If Two-Face perplexes Joker's attack and then Two-Face is going to share it, what would prevent the modifier from being shared in the replace then modify rule?

Whenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order, then applies the sum of all modifiers to arrive at a final result. Remember that a locked replacement value will override any other replacement values and modifiers

So in this example we have Joker with an 11 (+1) and Two-Face with a 9. When Two-Face goes to borrow Joker's attack, there is no replacement value being applied to Jokers attack value, so you add the modifiers and then replace it over to Two-Face, who then applies his own modifiers.

You calculate each single value on its own, applying replace then modify to each, one at a time.

It is only the fact that Batman Enemy TA says unmodified that you do not add the modifiers to the attack value of the figure who is sharing their attack value.

Replace then Modify is a blanket rule.
It doesn't matter when The Joker uses Perplex, replacing happens first, and since the replacing is already considered to have occurred, the Perplex cannot affect multiple parties.

I bolded the part that matters. Common mistake, people tend to make the rules much harder than they really are. Most of the rules can be taken at face value.

In your example your modifier is perplex. Which can only be used to target one character and modify that characters values. So only one value is modified while using perplex(barring some different SP perplex or Brilliant Tactician).

Another common mistake is convincing yourself that something will work just because that's how you want it to work.

Yes, you target Joker with perplex to make his attack 11 (+1). Now, when Joker shares his value over to Two-Face, you need to calculate his attack value. You are using Joker's attack, so the value needs to be calculated. To calculate his value, you apply all replacement values, and then apply all modifiers. You end up with 12. Now that 12 would be shared to Two-Face.

HOWEVER, Batman Enemy says to use the unmodified value, so you don't apply the perplex.

Replace then Modify is a golden rule, but as it is written, it applies to each value individually. You are NOT applying a replacement value to Joker's attack. You are applying a replacement value to Two-Face's attack. To get that value, you need to calculate Joker's attack.


Please, no one misunderstand me. I am NOT saying you can perplex someone's attack and then share that modified attack via Batman Enemy. I am saying you do need to have the qualifier in the TA to specify unmodified.

Noah Towns is correct. It is Replace then modify for both characters.

Again, "unmodified" is superfluous.

There is NO replacement value to apply to Joker's attack. You need to calculate his value in order to share it. By the definition of replace then modify, you WOULD apply the perplex to his attack value. However, the game effect that allows you to use his attack value as a replacement value specifies to use the unmodified value.

Whenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order, then applies the sum of all modifiers to arrive at a final result. Remember that a locked replacement value will override any other replacement values and modifiers.

To share Joker's attack, you need to calculate it. If you didn't then, you couldn't string along attack values with Batman Enemy. When you calculate a value, you follow these steps:

-Take the printed value.
-Apply ALL replacement values.
-Apply the sum of all modifiers.
-Use the final result.

It is the wording of Batman Enemy that prevents you from using modifiers, not the wording of replace then modify.

To share Jokers value, you need to read it.

So are you saying you cannot string attack values along via Batman Enemy? Because you can. The only way to do that would be to calculate each attack value in the sequence. ANY time you reference a combat value, you need to calculate what it is. Sometimes the effects that need you to check a value limit the steps of the calculation. When they don't, all steps apply.

Yes, you can chain the attack. That is all replace. It says you can replace in whatever order you want. All modifications come after all replacements.

Per combat value. You must calculate each combat separately. Replace then modify is a singular rule. It does not say resolve all replacement values on the map before resolving any modifiers. It says when you need to calculate a value, you apply all replacements to that value, then apply the sum of all modifiers to that value.