I'm not talking sculpt reuse nor the constant drip of Cap, Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man.

I'm talking straight up point cost.

When the newest Aquaman preview was shown I remarked that 111 points is too much for an Aquaman. Someone pointed out that you could exploit his trait my pushing the Mera pog and how he is suddenly awesome for 116 or whatever points.

That might be true but 116 points is too much for an Aquaman. As I discussed this with a friend I really clarified my point: if I am building a Justice League team I'm making sure I have a Superman, Wonder Woman and a Batman. Then I would add a Flash. At this point I am not putting on a 111 point Aquaman. I need him at 80 points so he can Superfriend it up.

The same with Chaos War Quicksilver. He's cool. I want to use him but 111 points is WAAAAY too much for that character. He is not a "build around" kinda character. He's an "and I'll add him" type.

I discussed this with Blackheart25 regarding Cyclops in the Fast Forces set. He was mentioning that the 110 point one was so much better - and he is. But you start building your team with 110 Cyclops. The 75 point Cyke is a better "and I'll add him" piece.

While I know some of you (many?) approach the game differently, I'm curious if anyone else views character points like this. Center piece figures can have center piece costs but your filler characters and secondary attackers / supporters need to be priced accordingly.

I've run into this problem with Dr. Strange. He is nearly 200 points. As a New Avengers reader, Strange isn't 2/5ths of the team. He should be closer to 1/5th. So I take him out, try to make him fit, and then put him back into storage. I'd rather use the 149 point version and more often fall back to the Fantastic Force Vet at 110 since he gives me everything I need a Dr. Strange for. And while I get he had his own book and he fights cosmic demons, my HeroClix is a team game and 200 point Strange needs to be on an 800 point team to have any chance of staying.

Anyone understand what I'm talking about?

I totally get what you're saying (though my friends and I actually always play at 800 points, lol).

Having different versions of the same character who work at different build-totals is vital. That's why I really like that they've recently been making figures like Superman that have multiple starting points on their dial. It's also why I can't even comprehend all the rage directed at "sculpt re-use" when it comes to Fast Forces and CTD/GF sets.

The only character I felt was "too much" was DKR Batman @ 140 points.

This thread does make ms appreciate the options for characters though. Use what you like.

Without knowing how they "formulate" the cost, it is really hard to say what is too many points. There are people who want their character to have this power, or that power. "Give them that SP, or they need a trait/ SP like this". That may drive cost up.

On the flip side, if they make a character, like Aquaman, at the 80 point mark, how good will he be? Will he have the powers/ abilities he should have?

It is a slippery slope, but I get where your coming from.

Honestly, this is why I'm fine with remakes sometimes. Having options of different alternatives for a specific character helps address this problem. Sure a 100+ version of a mid-tier power character is cool, but sometimes having a cheaper option is appreciated. But I know exactly where you come from. I do think having 100+ points on figures like Quicksilver may be a little too much.

I totally get this.

I totally feel the same way, and I echo your statements completely. I look at it like this:

In the instances of say Quicksilver or Aquaman, I agree they are more of a "I'll add this guy to round out Team X" type characters. However, there are certainly people out there who love those characters and want them to be represented by their best, highest point costed click. Of course, when that one click also happens to be our only option, it gets a bit tricky...

Part of it, in theory, is also the "epicness" of the power levels for certain heroes or teams. Quicksilver has been involved with the Avengers, the Brotherhood of Mutants, and X-Factor, all three of which could be said to have had some level of suitably high levels of action and power at times. Take someone like Daredevil, though, who's most of the time running "street level" heroics, and the 70-80 points we've been seeing on him seems about right. It wouldn't make sense to force, say, Marvel Knights or the street level members of the Bat-family into a 700 or 800 point game; you'd have something like 10-15 characters to the build!

Think of this Quicksilver or this Aquaman as suited for upper power levels like those, where an extra 100 points IS a case of "I'll throw this in" rather than being such a big chunk. If you want a lower-end Pietro or Arthur, then that's why we have the Avengers super-rare (Quicksilver) or Hypertime/Icons REVs (Aquaman).

I don't understand your point every character deserves a powerful representation considering each has displayed great power in their respective book. Why can't I have a 200 point hellion after reading new x men. How about a 300 point Franklin Richards, or Hell I would a 150 point elixir after x force

I said the very same thing to a friend about Quicksilver just today. He isn't the kind of guy I would pay that much for. I would have chopped his last two clicks off and he would probably be perfect.

I love Taskmaster but he should be around 75-90 points. He isn't a headliner. Cyclops, on the other hand, is someone I would build a team around.

Part of the problem is that the standard game is 300 points but the figures they have been releasing lately have really felt like we should be playing 500-600 point games.

I want to play games with 5 or 6 big name characters but these points costs generally mean I get 2 or 3, if I am lucky.

My gripe, if I had one, would be with the fact that this Aquaman is 111 points, while the two we got in DC75 and Brightest Day are 106 and 105 points. The Flashpoint Aquaman from Superman is 156 (I think), so he's the powerhouse of the gang, but he's also an "alternate" version. Why do I have three Aquaman figures to choose from who are all within a few points of one another? Give me a basic Justice League Aquaman for team building (lower points) and another for solo/King of Atlantis type teams.

I'm glad Aquaman is finally being represented by powerful figure designs--I just wish the points came out different (or there were multiple starting lines) to give more team-building options.

As a fan of the Avenger's Initiative comics, I have to say the Taskmaster IS a headliner, most especially for the era this set is pushing. He was basically the main character of that series for a 1/3 of the comic's run. Any other set, totally agree with you and think he should be demoted to well below 100 point status.

Of course, WK could have fixed this problem by giving us 2 different starting lines.

I appreciate options.

Let's look at Wonder Man. In Modern Age we have:

138 Hollywood

145 Wonder Man

The point space isn't that different. That sucks. BUT Wonder Man should by about 100-150 points. He's the guy who charges in first into the big bad and holds ties it up while the rest of the team engages.

Going back to AW, Quicksilver came in 4 costs:
R 52 points
E 62 points
LE 67 points
V 105 points

Even then, I never used the Vet since 62 points was perfect. A guy who could harass the medics and support figures. At 105 he needs to go after the Wonder Mans of the world and he can't and neither can the 111 point version.

As far as what can you get for an Aquaman for around 80 points, I think using more creativity would help out. Give him okay stats, shorter life, and a trait bonus for when he occupies water terrain and you get a decent Aquaman who doesn't need to bust he bank yet feels like Aquaman and not just another brick.

Start with a dial like this:
ffih003 E She-Hulk
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0
Points: 75
Keywords: Avengers, Fantastic Four, S.H.I.E.L.D.

10 10 17 3

10 10 16 3

10 9 16 2

9 9 16 3

9 9 16 2

8 8 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

(Defense) Impromptu Shield: She-Hulk can use Invulnerability. If She-Hulk is holding an object, she can also use Energy Shield/Deflection.

(Speed) Clothesline: She-Hulk can use Charge. When she does and moves along a straight horizontal or vertical path of at least 2 squares, opposing characters she hits are also given an action token.

And add a trait of +1 to all stats when occupying water and you get a team friendly Aquaman. Change out some of that Charge for some mind control and wouldn't he be a neater figure to try out at around 85 points?

That reminds me, CA Black Widow is another one at 85 that is too much. Her 60 point version is perfect.

Now, is there someone too weak for the points. I'd expect a lot of Hulk comments but I think that 60 point Captain America just ain't right. I think Caps should be in the 80-90 point range.

Agreed. Honestly, I still throw Hypertime Aquaman on JLA teams sometimes just because he's cheap, and he's Aquaman. However, Brightest Day Aquaman is also one of my favorite DC figures of the past few years for sheer smashiness.

I think this is a BIG part of the problem, but only because I think that the idea of a "standard" game is arbitrary and stupid anywhere outside of major tournaments. Venues ought to change up the build costs, the "Ages", and scenarios, just to keep things fresh.